#053 - Dealing with a Bad Boss: Mental Health and Positive Change (with Rob Kalwarowsky)

[00:00:00] Think of the worst boss you've had. What made them so bad? Do you think their top career goal was to be seen as a horrible boss? Or do they simply lack the training skills and self-awareness to learn and grow in their role?

[00:00:18] Today we dive into the topic of bad bosses. We look at sobering stats around employee engagement, financial impact to the business, and the scary mental health impact that often results from toxic bosses and workplace cultures. My guest today is Rob Kalvarski, an MIT-trained mechanical engineer turned leadership coach.

[00:00:42] Rob shares the eye-opening journey to let him from the world of heavy industry engineering to leadership coaching, along with important lessons for employees and bosses in today's rapidly changing leadership landscape. Welcome to the Working Well Podcast, the show that explores the rapidly changing landscape of work and well-being.

[00:01:03] Each episode we dive into the hottest topics of leadership, employee well-being, and the future of work. I'm your host Tim Borys. Now let's learn a little bit about Rob before we jump into the interview.

[00:01:15] As an MIT-trained mechanical engineer, Rob Kalvarski spent a decade in mining oil pipelines and heavy industry. His experiences with toxic leadership led to serious mental health challenges and set him on a mission to positively transform leadership and employee experience.

[00:01:34] Rob is passionate about building a world where happiness and engagement at work are common. People are led by great bosses. Rob was a three-time academic all-american in NCAA Water Polo. He played on the U18 Canadian National Water Polo team. He's now a world-renowned leadership coach and trainer.

[00:01:55] Ted X talked on how to deal with an asshole boss comes out this spring. Rob, so great to have you on the show today. I'm looking forward to diving into a few different leadership topics with you. Before we get started, what's been new with you in your world?

[00:02:16] Well, actually, Tim, I'm out in Alberta just like you are for the last few weeks. We're just getting all the paperwork earned out to be back down in Costa Rica for an extended period of time.

[00:02:26] So I'm ready to get back down into the tropics because the snow is not working for me. It's almost springtime here. I don't know. In Calgary we were plus 11 yesterday, so that's basically spring. But it's probably as warm as Costa Rica. Well, totally.

[00:02:49] Yeah, I mean, I know we lived down in Edmonton for a long time and it was like 11 is perfect for the spring. And then now that we live mostly in Costa Rica, it's like every day it's about 30 and sunny.

[00:03:02] And so you're just like, I never worry about what I need to wear. It's always the same thing. Well, it's different experiences in Costa Rica versus Calgary in Edmonton. Well, when we're talking about leadership, you've got a very interesting background.

[00:03:22] You came from the, I guess, heavy industry mining oil pipelines and consulting in the heavy industry aspects. So what got you into the leadership side? Yeah, so it's actually because of that is why I do what I do now in leadership.

[00:03:44] So I guess a little bit further back. So I played water polo for the junior national team in Canada. I went to MIT, got a mechanical engineering degree, and then my first job was in mining and coal mining in BC.

[00:04:01] And I went out there and I was like, you know, let's go. Like, let's save some money. Let's go on that corporate career track. Like let's get going. And I saved my company a lot of money.

[00:04:15] It was tens of millions of dollars in the first year I worked there. And I didn't know all the leadership stuff. So I was just like, I learned my whole life, hey, post results, people will like you and then you'll get opportunities because of this, right?

[00:04:30] Like when you play sports, score more goals, play well, people like you, you get on better teams, whatever. Or like in the classroom, you get A's, your teachers, your parents are all excited about that. And then you kind of move up. This was the inverse.

[00:04:46] And so I saved all this money and I was like, hey, promotion time, like give me more money, get me like recognition, dot it on. And it was like, whoa, no. And there was a lot of pushback.

[00:04:59] And it was a lot of this elements of like, well, we can't change. We've always done it this way. And then my boss was also very passive aggressive. And so there was things like, you know, now looking back at it,

[00:05:14] it's like he had a lot of the ego mindset stuff that we work on with folks. But it's like, well, I hired this guy. He figured out that what we've been doing was wrong or could have been improved. And like it's on me. I look bad now.

[00:05:33] And so I'm going to deny this and I'm going to push that away. And for me, I mean that landed in my experience is like, well, you don't want me to work here.

[00:05:44] And so that put me down a track of I suffered with depression and I had a suicide attempt in 2013. And then basically like I worked for the next six, seven, eight years just sort of drifting. Like I wasn't really trying that hard.

[00:06:02] It wasn't really pushing because I felt, I guess inside that if I did that, then I would get hit down like I did in my first job. And so I changed jobs, moved, did all the things.

[00:06:15] But I kept seeing the same things like in consulting, I went to, I don't know, 60 facilities across North America, everything from mining, oil and gas, manufacturing power plants. And I kept seeing folks that were working there. They were incredibly intelligent. These guys had worked there for 20 years.

[00:06:34] They knew everything that was wrong in the facility. And yet they all had the same thing. Well, I told somebody else, I don't know, five times no one ever listened. And so now I just keep all this information in my head and they're all negative and they're

[00:06:49] like changes on work and this doesn't work and nobody listens and blah, blah, blah. And then I started working with Susan actually for my own growth. And what she started to teach me was like, what leadership could be?

[00:07:05] And it was, and that started turning the lights on like, actually, you know what? It's like this industry has a leadership problem. And it was because of that is why I was unhappy and why all these other folks

[00:07:20] were not only unhappy, but they were also like the performance was bad. Like how can you work in a facility and you have this guy who knows all these things that are wrong and you could fix all these things and you would save millions of dollars

[00:07:35] and then you don't want to do it? Like that always boggled my mind because I would always try to find that guy and be like, hey, tell me what's wrong in here and like we'll fix it. We'll fix it.

[00:07:47] And of course that was my limited perspective at that time. And now as I've pivoted into leadership coaching and like I don't work in heavy industry, I think have one client who's in heavy industry, but now I have clients across the board

[00:08:05] and it's very pervasive throughout the world is and the research backs this up. Like I did a TED talk about how to deal with a Nassau boss and the research shows that 65% of the workforce works for what's known as a destructive leader.

[00:08:25] And there are six types of destructive leaders, but we'll get into that maybe later. But it's like this is pervasive across industry. And it's all the population from the government to private to all these companies. And it's not only is impacting our personal health and well-being as people,

[00:08:45] it's also impacting the business results. It goes back to that saying that people don't leave the company, they leave their boss. And I'm shocked that the number was that high. I knew there was lots of bad bosses out there.

[00:09:04] And I guess I shouldn't use the word bad boss, ineffective bosses or bosses leading from well, they're not leading bosses dictating from the ineffective perspective. And you said something earlier in one of your articles is that very few people really set out to be a bad boss.

[00:09:31] So how do you think that there are so many out there? How many people having a negative experience in the leadership role? Yeah, I mean, Tim, it's what you said. Nobody sits down at the job interview and they say,

[00:09:48] hey, Tim, where do you want to be in five years? And you say, I'm going to be the greatest asshole boss of all time. It never happens like that. And typically everyone wants to do a good job.

[00:10:01] Everyone wants to feel like they're productive and that they're getting things done and that their job has meaning and it's useful and all these things. Right. And it's flat out two, basically two reasons if you distill it way down. One is the psychology that people have.

[00:10:21] And the other part of it is they don't learn leadership. And the second one is Harvard Business Review reported that the average person becomes a supervisor at 29 years old, but they don't receive leadership training until they're 42, 13 years.

[00:10:43] Right. And Tim, you're a really incredible baseball player and it's like, imagine you just learned it on your own for 13 years. And then you're like, oh, you're drafted by the Yankees. We're going to give you a coach now. It's like that's insane.

[00:10:59] Right. And it's like we don't do this with any jobs. Like, you know, it's like when I was a lifeguard, I did training. My sister worked at Wendy's. She was doing training. Like we're giving training to folks to do these jobs that are not as

[00:11:16] necessarily impactful on other people's health and well-being than leadership. And yet we just go, hey, you know what? You're a great salesperson. Now you're managing people or, hey, you're a great engineer. Now you're managing people.

[00:11:29] And it's like, well, the skills to be a great engineer are not the same skills to be a great leader. Absolutely. Yeah. And then you bring up a great point. We tend to see that, well, there's a saying where people get promoted to their level of their incompetence.

[00:11:46] And we tend to see that from my perspective a lot more in the technical skills, engineers, lawyers, doctors, things like that, that people show exceptional technical prowess and they're doing really well. And it's like, hey, now we'll just make you a leader of other technical people.

[00:12:06] And yeah, as you said, the skills that get you to be successful as a technical producer are not the same things that it takes to lead people. And that 13 year gap is tremendously impactful because after 13 years of quote leading,

[00:12:31] you're probably not as malleable as you were at the beginning of the process. And if you manage to survive that long, you build your habits and the framework that I try and bring into my coaching clients and my consulting is what I call the mindset first

[00:12:51] and then the habits until you shift that mindset and become a learner and realize that there are things that you can do to improve and you're able to look critically at your actions, your behavior, the outcomes. Nothing else will change from that.

[00:13:11] And I love how you brought sports into it. You must have seen that as well in the water polo side is you start to build these skills as an athlete and as a team player that are so transferable to business.

[00:13:31] And there's a reason that a lot of the most effective leaders come from a sports background and because you learn those skills and you might not be trained in them in the business world, but you've had enough experience building that up throughout your formative years that

[00:13:51] you're able to step into leadership roles more effectively and create positive outcomes. When we're talking about that 13 year gap, what do you think needs to change to start to erase that gap? The first thing is companies need to invest in their leaders sooner. Right?

[00:14:14] And what I guess is that what in order for them to do that, what mindset shift or what operational or strategic shift has to happen? The big shift right is we need to just look at the research and to behave

[00:14:35] in ways that science has already proven are effective. Right? And it's like Gallup does their state of the workforce every year and every year it's you know, in 2023 I believe they released one and it was we have all-time highs in employee engagement at 23%. Right?

[00:15:00] And it's like that means basically one in four people on your team are actually engaged doing their work as the best they can and like pushing. And there's like a big percentage there around 60-ish percent where the folks

[00:15:17] are you know, that actively or sorry was it actively passively quitting? Whatever the word is now. Quite clearly. It's like basically they're doing the minimal. They're showing up, they're punching the clock, they're doing their stuff.

[00:15:31] They're not really trying that hard but they're not really also they're not really like quitting. Right? They're just kind of like hey pay me I'll do stuff and whatever. And then you have it's around 12-ish percent where people are actively working against your results.

[00:15:51] And that actually the cost of having somebody like that is nine times the cost of a regular employee which is absolutely insane but it's what we all know kind of through our experiences if you have a bad apple it really impacts the whole team.

[00:16:08] The person's negative, they're pushing back on every initiative. Sometimes they'll be like actively working against it so you go hey Tim you know maybe we should do this change initiative they're like no and then they drive people and they talk

[00:16:24] about it and they kind of try to push everyone back to the old ways. Right? And so that's the data and also the data shows that like high trust companies return two to three percent more in stock returns per year over a 26-year period. That's a huge number.

[00:16:46] Right? And it's like that trust is built through great leadership not through a boss that yells at you if you did something well. Right? And so it's just getting back to fundamentals and the leaders who are at the top like we just need to change our mindsets

[00:17:04] and especially now like what I see a lot Tim and I'm sure you do as well is like oh the market's uncertain. We're not sure about revenue. Let's cut people development first like training budgets goes out and then like consulting and all the other stuff goes out too.

[00:17:20] And it's like we should still be investing in our people because that delivers a huge return when not only they feel like you care about their development so then they become more engaged. That's also a research back statement but also now you have better people.

[00:17:39] Who have better skills who can do things. Right? That's a great thing. Yeah and you bring up a great point like I you're speaking to the converted here in terms of companies investing in their people and the growth of people.

[00:17:58] One thing that I've noticed in a lot of companies is that that investment's happening but in the technical aspects. And of course technical skill training needs to happen. We need continuing education and we have to keep doing that for people in technical roles.

[00:18:17] And what we alluded to earlier is that gap in the leadership skills has to happen earlier. And I don't see it happening as much and when it does I'd say the biggest downfall is that

[00:18:32] it's a weekend retreat or a course or a program and then it's Monday morning back to business as usual. There's no follow up and what I call the long tail learning of integrating that information that they learned and reinforcing it.

[00:18:48] The stats on one off trainings are just dismal in terms of retention and the way that it's done. So if it's I often say to companies if it's worth investing in almost flip the ratio around and say

[00:19:02] if you're going to invest 100% in training take 20 or 30% of it and put it in the initial training and then take the other 70 to 80% of it and use it as a way to do that. And then you can do that.

[00:19:18] 20 or 30% of it and put it in the initial training and then take the other 70 to 80% of it and use it for reinforcement throughout the program. And I often say that when I go into a keynote or a talk at a company one of my first questions is

[00:19:37] hey why are we doing this training? What's the outcome? What's your desired outcome? Is it to check a box on your training thing to say hey we got this credential or is it to actually implement what we're talking about?

[00:19:50] Because if it's to implement this one off training is not going to be it's not going to solve the problem. We need regular reinforcement they say in marketing 7 to 18 times you have to be exposed to information before it registers.

[00:20:08] And so I guarantee 99% of training and development programs aren't getting 7 to 18 touch points after an employee or a leader takes a program. Yeah and the data backs us up too right? And so Harvard Business Review reports that companies spend $356 billion per year on leadership development

[00:20:40] and only 25% of it is effective because it involves the leaders' mindsets. And so just like you're saying here is if we want to sustain change we have to change people's minds because otherwise it's a four-day then I have Friday off weekend where you know I forget stuff

[00:21:01] and then Monday I walk into the office and my boss goes hey here's 12 more things that you missed last week and you're back into that cycle. And so like when we host our trainings our programs we run them for 8 to 12 weeks.

[00:21:18] Now it's not like obviously it's not full time for 8 to 12 weeks it's you know an hour of content, an hour of group coaching and then we also have some individual one-on-one coaching for each person and it's spread over that amount of time is exactly that.

[00:21:36] It's I can teach you what emotional intelligence means in 30 minutes but you don't learn it because you don't feel it and you don't practice it. And that's where that 8 to 12 week window is where

[00:21:52] you're doing the reps every day it's starting to become integrated into you as a leader and that's truly what matters. Yeah and we're starting to see you know obviously smart companies are implementing these things and seeing greater change I'd say it's still a minority of

[00:22:17] organizations that are putting these long-term development models in place and really working with employees to get key metrics on how they're being implemented. And we see it a bit in the wellness side or the well-being side is employee engagement surveys

[00:22:39] and things like that. Leadership 360s when done poorly 360s are a waste of time and absolute garbage and they just disengage people but when they're done right they can be powerful tools for change if they're combined with a leadership development program and follow-ups.

[00:23:06] And that's I guess where executive coaches and leadership trainers come in to really feel the gap but I've spoken with so many people that say oh yeah I did my annual review and it's like

[00:23:20] that's the last time we chatted about those things was a year ago. It's like well if you're a year between every major strategic touch point is the window then you're going to be severely lacking in your ability to make course corrections along the way.

[00:23:41] And so yeah and that's the back to the like what Gallup talks about are the five behaviors for engaging people and it's having a caring manager focusing on strengths, constant development discussions. I forget what the other two are but it's basically that right it's like people

[00:24:06] want to feel one is that they matter two that they're cared about and that they're focusing on their own development and utilizing their strengths so they're effective every day. And like literally I had a conversation with one of my leaders last week and we were talking about

[00:24:26] being creative with his people on tasks. He had some folks that he was trying to give tasks to and they were pushing back and it was like they weren't good at these tasks or they felt in their

[00:24:41] mindset that they weren't ready to do them or whatever. And I was like well why don't we take some other folks give them those tasks and then hand the tasks that these people are good at to

[00:24:53] like cross-pollinate to work a little bit differently. And it doesn't take this massive effort right it's like hey Tim you know this Excel spreadsheet data tracking stuff like let me do that and then you can work on you know going out and building connection

[00:25:12] or going out and engaging people. And it's not this huge shift it's a couple tweaks. And going back to what we talked about before about how there are so many bad bosses out there and people haven't had that training they haven't had the

[00:25:35] coach sitting down with them and really asking them those challenging questions and working through that development process. I guess most people I wouldn't say most people there's a split between how people deal with a bad boss. The most common would probably be just quitting

[00:25:56] your job but that's not feasible for everyone. So what are some effective ways to stay in the role and hopefully make it better as an employee? Absolutely it depends what type of boss you have

[00:26:13] first right. So when I the six types of bad bosses basically two of them are known as arrogant and violent and abusive narcissists. These are they make up roughly well roughly 25% of the workforce experiences those type of bosses these are your Gordon Ramsay Hell's kitchen

[00:26:38] throw the dish on the ground yell at you those kind of guys I know he's not exactly that and it's more role but it's for the point. Those folks aren't typically going to change

[00:26:50] unless they do a lot of therapy or or they have this big moment where it's like the light turns on for them. Those are in your quit category right and also sometimes if HR is effective you can also

[00:27:07] report their behavior or you know those kind of things are also options for those but typically you're just going to have to leave or find something new whether that's internal or external

[00:27:19] is up to you. Some of the ones on the other side though there's two types of bosses that one is called the cowardly boss and the other one's called the messy bosses so the cowardly boss

[00:27:32] is these folks that go well that's not my decision that's for upper management or something like you know what Tim you're the SME and you should decide not me. Basically they have a mindset

[00:27:48] where it's I don't know if they don't feel good enough or confident enough or whatever but they don't want to make they don't want to be accountable for decisions so they don't do it. Then we have

[00:27:58] the messy bosses where it's probably just a training thing where they haven't learned necessarily how to delegate properly communicate properly set deadlines instructions clarification specifications it's just sort of like hey Tim you figure this out right for those

[00:28:20] bosses you can actually manage them and so it's like when someone just throws a project over the fence it's like well Rob you know what like what time when do you want this done by what are

[00:28:34] your expectations for the output you know can you tell me like what my budget is or can I employ other resources from other departments or you know I need help with this or that and like get

[00:28:46] them to sort of define for you a project plan and you can teach them over time right as you mentioned one time isn't going to be enough but it's like over time if you continue to ask these questions

[00:29:01] they're going to learn oh well Rob wants you know Tim wants this kind of thing when I delegate work to him and so that's what I'm going to do right for the cowardly bosses they don't want to make

[00:29:14] decisions but you can say to them hey Rob I need support and I'm going to ask Tim to help me on this project how does that sound and it's more like you're asking them to agree instead of

[00:29:30] decide for themselves and so you're sort of like telling them in a way you've decided but you've telling you're telling them sort of like hey this is what I'm going to do is that good and then they can most likely they'll just be like yeah that's fine

[00:29:47] and so those are kind of the bosses you can coach in a sense they're managing out absolutely yeah the the biggest thing I want folks to leave with this

[00:30:00] is and also if you want I have a free ebook on my website how to deal boss.com you can go there and it'll break out the boss types and some of the strategies but the biggest thing I want folks

[00:30:12] to take away from this is you need to lead yourself and so this starts with you deciding on what's acceptable and not acceptable and then also how you're going to navigate and it's just like the training right you need to take control of your career and go

[00:30:35] I want to be whatever if I want to be a leader well I need to get leadership training or if I want to be the best engineer in the world well I need to get continued development

[00:30:47] in engineering so I can do this whatever that is you need to decide and invest where you need to because your company is going to do stuff and it's great if they kind of align but often they won't

[00:31:02] and that's where you need to start choosing for yourself because that's where you're going to become your best. Love that and you bring up an awesome point that often gets lost

[00:31:16] by people who are facing toxic workplaces or bad bosses is that they just this is out of my control I don't have any control over this it sucks and it's easy to get down in that negative spiral

[00:31:32] regardless of the situation we always have control over how we respond to that situation and even Victor Frankel mad search for meaning and reading that the first time was just this light bulb moment of yeah it doesn't matter how bad things get because you can't

[00:31:52] pretty tough to get much worse than his situation and still to be able to choose to see the positive and to learn and grow and develop and keep control over the things that you have control over that is critical to health happiness while being success down the road

[00:32:14] and we are going to face tough times we're going to face tough people tough situations being able to take a step back and use that that personal growth and the learning that we

[00:32:29] take away from it one of the positive intelligence is programs talks about the three gifts technique it's like whatever you're facing what are three gifts I can take away from this learning insight and self growth are just different ways to look at it but I love

[00:32:53] that I love that you said that and being back to something I read from Brian Tracy ages ago was every employee or every person is the CEO of their own personal services company

[00:33:07] and so I love that approach and that mindset and because a lot of employees especially in the toxic environments just say whatever I'm just going to do my thing and I don't have influence but you

[00:33:20] have influence over how you show up and as you said if you're in a situation with that 25% of the bosses quitting might be the best option if you're being abused mentally leave and physically then yes leave for sure it's not worth staying in that situation but there are

[00:33:44] most situations are not that type of situation so there are opportunities to improve and grow and so I think there's so much of that that can be helped now hopefully as you said the

[00:34:03] we don't have to deal with asshole bosses and and that companies are investing in leadership training earlier what would you say is the the future I guess with so much awareness over the

[00:34:19] past four years since COVID particularly there's been a sea change in terms of the awareness around mental health in the workplace leadership where do you see us being in five years

[00:34:36] so the first I just want to go back right to what you just mentioned and this is hard taking control of your life and career is hard especially when you're in a toxic environment

[00:34:51] and the stats prove that out right as as folks who work for a bad boss typically stay there two years longer than other people in regular jobs right and especially if you're in one of those

[00:35:05] ones where they're abusing you or they're attacking you it's it eats away at your your control right your brain like toxic workplaces increased depression 300% right even your your physical risk goes higher as well so you're more at risk for

[00:35:29] major disease heart attack strokes all these other things right and the reason I'm so passionate about it is this is I was there I literally tried to kill myself and then the next morning I woke up

[00:35:45] and I went to work and I knew my workplace was killing me I knew my boss was killing me and yet my brain was like well Rob you should just go to work because that's what you do

[00:35:56] you got to make money you got to be important you got to be whatever right I could have quit my job I could have like it wasn't a money problem I didn't have any like

[00:36:08] logistically I could have like quit my job got in my car and drove away right it wasn't that it's it's the psychology that shuts you in and the biggest part is for folks out there that

[00:36:25] I want to give to you is you can choose and if you have a bad boss I give you whatever power I have to tell you to quit your job and move right these are things that are possible and it's just now

[00:36:42] we got to start implementing that because I know it's incredibly hard in a moment I've been there I didn't do it but I want my experience to be something useful for you because I didn't do it

[00:36:56] and I spent another you know year and a half at that workplace and it was awful every minute and I hope that me sharing that helps you get the resources you need to change and move

[00:37:09] and get out when you need to because ultimately this is one thing my dad said to me is no jobs worth your life and that's 100 true and thank you so much for bringing the topic back to that

[00:37:28] the psychological challenge of actually making that change that is something I yeah I obviously didn't mean to minimize or skip over and it's so so important you know and I've seen that in

[00:37:45] lots of clients I've worked with I've seen it myself some of the business challenges that I've had over the past is like you when you get into that spiral and how I explain it and describe it to

[00:37:58] clients is then it's like a whirlpool at the beginning you're still in the end it's down where it's far but it's slow and and it gets to this point where you get to a certain point and

[00:38:09] it's almost next to impossible it feels to pull yourself out of it because you're getting sucked down so so much and that's where like you said you I and to I can't even fathom how be to try to

[00:38:30] commit suicide and then go to work the next day in the same environment that was causing that so the piece Tim is that is actually the most common thing that suicide attempt survivors do

[00:38:46] is their life doesn't change we think that it's like oh we hit rock bottom we moved to the beach right like that's what the movies tell us but actually that's not always the case

[00:38:58] like I didn't learn like I spent six years after that just sort of drifting trying to figure out what's going on you know not really being engaged and so it's like I just want to give that to folks

[00:39:13] because it's like we're taught in movies you know you hit rock bottom and then it's like a voice speaks to you and you're like oh I should become a leadership coach now it's like well

[00:39:25] that actually didn't happen it took me you know seven eight years to get to that point right but it but it what it needed to go first was I needed to start going back into learning and

[00:39:40] grow which I had cut off completely for about four years after that because I felt every time I would try to read something or grow I would get my mind my brain would be like oh it felt like

[00:39:55] it was an attack on me that I wasn't good enough or I needed to I needed to take whatever advice I was going to and implement it today and all of it and like it was very hard for me to start doing

[00:40:07] that but taking some of those small steps going to therapy getting a psychiatrist getting a coach surrounding myself with folks who supported me that's when you can start doing things and then you

[00:40:21] can pull yourself out of it and so definitely it starts with like like I think it starts with having that network and like you mentioned like that slow spiral is that's the point of having

[00:40:36] all these habits and the support systems in place is that helps you never go down like yeah you'll have a dip like it's told everyone has dips right I have dips you have dips everyone

[00:40:47] has dips but it's like when we're dipping then we have folks who are like well like I literally have my wife my therapist and my coach go to me like when I start overworking I have them

[00:40:59] watching out for me and it's like well Rob you did you did you know 10 hours this weekend like are you how are you feeling or you know you've been working nights and weekends every

[00:41:11] day how are you feeling and it's like well I'm tired I'm burnt out I'm not feeling engaged okay we need to work on let's let's put some boundaries there right and it's like that's

[00:41:21] the importance of having those folks because it's hard for you to see yourself thank you again for sharing that I know that will be valuable to lots of people listening and talk to a lot of

[00:41:41] leaders particularly executive leaders that are in that situation and they don't see a way out I think we talked about the mental health stigma and while there's more awareness around it there's still and there's definitely more conversation happening which is good

[00:42:05] I think in the leadership space especially at the executive level it's still pretty taboo to admit that you're struggling what have you seen about that? I think it's also like partly a generational thing and like like like the Gen Z folks like I did

[00:42:28] we worked with an NCAA team last year and you know these girls were you know 18 to 22 right and they were all talking about going to therapy and I was I was thinking back when I was in college

[00:42:43] and I was like we would have never talked about this like it's just not even a thing right and it's like that's the hard part right is and I totally was there right like but when I started

[00:42:57] getting depressed I didn't walk in to a doctor's office to try to get help for nine months and I was trying literally everything I like you know running outside you know more sunlight

[00:43:12] getting like all the stuff that people tell you right but it was like I didn't want to be vulnerable enough to be like I needed I need help and this isn't working and so it is hard but ultimately

[00:43:29] the hard things are where you exactly what you said is where you learn and also where there's opportunity for growth and that's the that's the big thing for leaders is you don't actually have to tell anyone that you're depressed except for a doctor or a psychiatrist

[00:43:48] or a psychologist or even a coach right like you can literally call me and I'll be like we can sit down and talk about it and like it I'm never going to leave the room like there's no one

[00:44:02] saying like you got to come out to your whole company be like you know what well yesterday I was so sad or like I'm burnt out right like you don't have to do that but you need somebody

[00:44:14] psychologist a psychiatrist you need somebody who can help you with those things and like that's why you have therapists like that's literally their job and so that's where you know if you're out there and you're struggling like you're welcome to shoot me an email rob at elite high

[00:44:33] performance happy to sit down with you but find those folks who can support you with those things because that will change your life that so for you what was the what was the catalyst

[00:44:49] that got you to reach out for help and go do yeah it was actually a friend of mine so I had worked yeah it was a friend of mine and she was a social worker and I was like I was really

[00:45:06] struggling like I had a lot of like very intense thoughts and it was I was talking to her and I was like I'm having these problems like what should I do and she was like Rob go to the doctor right now

[00:45:22] and so that's what I did like I actually drove to ER I was in a small town so I was like I didn't have a family doctor but I drove to the ER and then they you know wrote me a prescription

[00:45:34] and then they got me into therapy and group therapy and all these things but and I just want to say for folks it took me a long time to find support that works so just for folks it's not like you're going

[00:45:49] to get the first pill and it's going to work typically it doesn't I actually did around 20 medications before I found one that was effective and I also went to many therapists before I found

[00:46:00] one that was effective and so just just to put that out there it's not like a broken arm where they just set it and put a cask and everything's great it's very complex and there's a lot of ironing

[00:46:13] out that they need to do with it and so you probably will have to ask many times Now how did you feel through that process of experimentation with trying to find the right fit for a therapist? What were some of the

[00:46:40] thought processes you went through? Well that was actually the reason why the six-year dissociation happened was the first round of help I did I don't know it was like 10 different medications or so and I saw a few different therapists group therapy all of it and

[00:47:01] it actually some of it made me worse like it's literally on some of the medications like SSRIs especially they say like in certain people it increases your risk of suicide or increases

[00:47:14] your risk of depression and that happened to me and so I actually after about a year I was like I don't think I'm even helpable like it's like I don't think it's impossible for me

[00:47:30] and so I basically stopped going to all of it and then the second time around was in about 2019 and I did again right I did another 10 different medications and did a few therapists and then

[00:47:49] and then it was actually finding kind of the new strategies that they have now where it was like and literally now my psychiatrist and my therapist are incredible and the biggest part that both of them did or do is they were constantly learning things

[00:48:09] and constantly saying hey like my psychiatrist first session I walk in he's like hey we do a genetic test to figure out what medications work for you it's new but and I was like here's $500 do it now

[00:48:23] and it was like science and then every time I would go see him he would he would show me a new paper that he read about the the treatment path that we were doing and I was like oh I like

[00:48:33] this because he's on the edge and he's learning and he's growing and then even my my therapist like almost every other week she would be in a new training course and she'd be like I learned

[00:48:45] this do you want to try it I'm like yes and it's like those growth mindset focused people those are the people like they're always good it's not like you know and some of the other

[00:48:59] psychiatrists like you could tell that they haven't read a book in 50 years and it's like well yeah like it was great when you took your your psychiatry degree in 1970 like but we've come a long way

[00:49:14] and I think that's the that's the big thing for folks and even for for people out there like if you're thinking I mean obviously if you're listening to this show you're into development

[00:49:24] but keep on that path and surround yourself with people who are also on the growth path absolutely and you just used a great example of leadership skills is tailoring the delivery to the the team member or the client knowing that you with your engineering background that

[00:49:50] you'd be like yes absolutely you tend to think science-based and logical and let's try new things and let's experiment and so for them to present it to you that way shows their growth mindset

[00:50:03] but also caters it to your learning style and your preferences and great leaders do that well Rob it has been such a fantastic chat and I know our our topic sort of went a bit more to

[00:50:21] the mental health side which is amazing because I think it's so important and it doesn't get talked out particularly on the leadership side as much as I think it needs to

[00:50:32] you before we go what's you know we recap the the top takeaway you think you want people to walk away from from this episode and the number one action they can take biggest thing for me is

[00:50:49] becoming your own leader for you and this can be in your growth investing in your growth this can be taking accountability and quitting your job if you have a bad boss this can be going in

[00:51:04] and trying therapy or getting a psychiatrist right if you're struggling with mental health like but it ultimately starts with you making the best choice for you in this moment and obviously

[00:51:16] Tim and I we don't know what that is but you have all the information and so you can choose to do the best choice for you and so get out there and do it excellent well and

[00:51:30] hopefully that some of those choices involve the support system around you for people that are feeling like they might not have as many options as they think so thank you Rob I look forward to reconnecting and where can people find you

[00:51:47] yeah well the first thing is head on over to the leadership launchpad project podcast wherever you're listening to working well Tim is actually going to be a guest on our show in real world I'm

[00:51:59] interviewing him in about five minutes in podcast world who knows so check that one out and then for all things bad bosses how to deal boss.com that's where the free ebook is and we actually

[00:52:13] have a training program as well so you're welcome to check those out and then for all things leadership development one-on-one executive coaching head on over to elitehyperformance.com for all of that

[00:52:28] wonderful I make sure those go in the show notes and we can link directly to your sites thank you again for your time and your insight and for sharing so genuinely about your experience

[00:52:41] thank you thank you so much that wraps up another episode of the working well podcast if you enjoyed the show please rate review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts which guests or topics would you like to see featured on the show message me through LinkedIn

[00:52:59] or on the contact page of timboris.com thank you for tuning in I'm Tim Boris with Fresh Group and look forward to seeing you on the next episode