#048 - Navigating Toxic Workplaces and Remote Work (with Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett)

[00:00:00] Remote Work, Hybrid Work, and Back to Office Orders

[00:00:04] These topics are taking up a lot of bandwidth these days

[00:00:07] And a key part of this focus is because companies are still coming to terms with the massive workplace changes over the past few years

[00:00:16] This has led to a mental health epidemic that doesn't seem to be going away

[00:00:21] One that's causing rising levels of stress and burnout in the workplace

[00:00:25] Now to shed some light on these challenges and talk about solutions

[00:00:29] I'm excited to have Dr. Laura Hambly love it on the show today

[00:00:33] She's a rockstar PhD and organizational psychologist who was researching remote work back in 2003

[00:00:41] As an organizational psychologist and expert on workplace psychology

[00:00:45] Dr. Laura has a specialty on the future of work and career development

[00:00:50] Her work passion is creating cultures where people stay and thrive so that companies can attract top talent

[00:00:58] Dr. Laura holds a PhD in industrial organizational psychology from the University of Calgary

[00:01:04] Where she is currently an adjunct professor

[00:01:07] She also received the Canadian Women of Inspiration Award as a global influencer in 2018

[00:01:13] Welcome to The Working Well Podcast

[00:01:18] The show that explores the rapidly changing landscape of work and well-being

[00:01:22] Each episode we dive into the hottest topics in leadership, employee well-being and the future of work

[00:01:28] I'm your host Tim Borus

[00:01:30] Dr. Laura, great to have you on the show

[00:01:34] Welcome to The Working Well Podcast

[00:01:37] Thank you so much Tim, it's a pleasure to be here and working with what I'm all about as well

[00:01:43] Exactly, I've been excited to have you on the show for a while

[00:01:46] And we've got lots of topics to cover

[00:01:50] We had discussed a number of different things

[00:01:52] And I'm curious to hear your perspective on things like remote work and toxic workplaces

[00:02:00] And how those come into play

[00:02:02] And some of the changes that we've been facing over the past few years

[00:02:07] Where do you want to start today?

[00:02:09] Wow, maybe some of the changes that we've been facing

[00:02:16] So the bigger picture context that we're in

[00:02:20] And then how that impacts people's lives and the ways they want to work

[00:02:25] And the leadership skills that are needed going forward

[00:02:28] Absolutely, and that's a lot about what you do in your work as well

[00:02:34] And even some of the research you've pulled in

[00:02:37] I know you're an adjunct professor at the university

[00:02:40] What are the changes you're seeing over the past few years in employment in general

[00:02:47] But particularly toxicity of workplaces

[00:02:52] Sure, so essentially I have specialized in remote and distributed work

[00:03:00] So working apart from one another, teleworking the human dynamics of all of that

[00:03:06] The considerations from a leadership perspective

[00:03:09] The considerations from a personality perspective

[00:03:12] And how some people adjust really quickly to working remotely

[00:03:16] And other people struggle without that structure and routine of the office

[00:03:21] But COVID changed everything in terms of almost everybody

[00:03:27] In some way, shape or form was doing that

[00:03:29] Or exposed to that with their loved ones

[00:03:32] And pivoting to remote over the period of a number of weeks essentially

[00:03:37] And so it really turned things upside down in terms of people's experience

[00:03:43] Of being able to work remotely, being able to have more flexibility in their lives

[00:03:49] And we thought of it as researchers, we thought of it as

[00:03:53] Wow, this is like a huge pilot project

[00:03:56] And this is actually being taken up in a widespread manner

[00:04:00] And we have to spread the messages about what works and what doesn't

[00:04:04] And how to lead it and manage it

[00:04:06] But the genie is out of the bottle

[00:04:08] So that's one of the biggest things is now the genie is out of the bottle

[00:04:12] People have experienced it

[00:04:14] And the latest trend is there's a widespread mix really going on

[00:04:19] There's a mix of pulling everyone back into the office

[00:04:22] So some companies are declaring that

[00:04:24] Those are the ones that tend to make it into the media

[00:04:27] And then there's a lot that are saying

[00:04:29] No, we're going to continue along this line of flexibility

[00:04:32] And use it as a way to keep our organization healthy

[00:04:36] To keep a strong culture and to retain talent

[00:04:40] And attract new talent

[00:04:43] Yeah, I'm definitely seeing a lot of those things as well

[00:04:46] And let's just to clarify

[00:04:48] You've been doing research on remote work

[00:04:50] Well, I've been waiting for it was cool to do

[00:04:53] When did you start researching remote work?

[00:04:56] In 2003

[00:05:00] Yeah

[00:05:02] Yeah, so I did my doctoral research on that

[00:05:05] And I did a really large study of teams that were communicating

[00:05:10] By video conference versus teams that were communicating

[00:05:13] By text based chat

[00:05:16] And then teams that were communicating face to face

[00:05:18] And then how each team went about solving problems

[00:05:21] Communicating and what leadership styles worked best

[00:05:25] For those different, we call them media

[00:05:28] Different communication media

[00:05:31] And it was so funny because the video platform we used back in 2003

[00:05:36] Is similar to Zoom

[00:05:38] Everybody's in a square on the screen

[00:05:41] But I have photos of that

[00:05:43] It's really retro but it's as if Zoom

[00:05:47] Was a premonition back in those days

[00:05:50] Yeah, and I think people forgot

[00:05:55] Or people forget that this wasn't anything new

[00:05:58] There was a significant section of the population of the workforce

[00:06:02] That was working remotely

[00:06:04] Even people that traveled all the time

[00:06:07] And in the fitness well-being side

[00:06:11] We had clients for probably

[00:06:14] We've had clients for 15 years that we've worked with remotely

[00:06:17] Because they were traveling for work

[00:06:20] And we would still do our coaching sessions with them

[00:06:23] And we would do some over video, some over phone

[00:06:27] It didn't really matter just based on the circumstances of that person

[00:06:33] And this isn't something new

[00:06:36] But the volume of people going through it

[00:06:39] As you said was a huge social experiment

[00:06:44] People were thrust into it unwillingly

[00:06:47] I guess you would say at that point

[00:06:50] Yeah, and then with this

[00:06:52] But people are changing

[00:06:55] There's some way more focus now on mental health

[00:06:58] Than there's ever been

[00:07:00] Which is really great as a psychologist

[00:07:03] To see that really being less stigmatized

[00:07:07] Than it was before

[00:07:08] I say less because it's still stigmatized

[00:07:10] But less so there's more open conversations

[00:07:13] And more people being vulnerable and authentic

[00:07:16] About their own mental health struggles

[00:07:18] Or those of their families

[00:07:20] And so that's gaining a lot of attention out there

[00:07:24] Which I think is really needed

[00:07:27] Because we're in a mental health pandemic

[00:07:30] It's an after shock of the pandemic

[00:07:33] And the world is very uncertain

[00:07:36] There's lots of challenges and the news is typically negative

[00:07:40] And I think people are struggling

[00:07:43] So that's another trend that I focus a lot on

[00:07:49] What are the key reasons you're seeing

[00:07:53] About why people are struggling and continue to struggle?

[00:07:56] I think there's lots of reasons

[00:07:58] So there's reasons that have to do with work and career

[00:08:02] And there's reasons that have to do with non-work

[00:08:04] And life and family and relationships

[00:08:07] And all those kinds of things

[00:08:09] I decided as a psychologist

[00:08:10] I wanted to focus on work and career

[00:08:13] Because people spend a lot of their waking time

[00:08:16] In those domains

[00:08:17] And not a lot of psychologists

[00:08:20] At that time were specializing in that

[00:08:22] There's way more that specialize

[00:08:24] In clinical and counseling

[00:08:26] Than work and career specifically

[00:08:29] So I got into my niche

[00:08:31] Turns out that you can't separate career and work

[00:08:34] With the rest of life

[00:08:36] Especially in a remote work environment

[00:08:40] Yeah, but in general

[00:08:42] People bring themselves to work

[00:08:45] If work is in an office or work is at home

[00:08:48] You're dealing with human beings

[00:08:50] And the whole mental health conversation

[00:08:53] Coming into workplaces and the pandemic

[00:08:56] It's really blended the two

[00:08:58] And I've had to blend the two as well

[00:09:01] As my master's is in counseling psychs

[00:09:04] So I have that background

[00:09:06] But my PhD being an organizational

[00:09:08] Which is a different lens

[00:09:09] But both really overlap these days

[00:09:13] And I'm pulling on both fields

[00:09:15] In addition to business

[00:09:16] Because in the end of the day

[00:09:17] If you don't have a thriving business

[00:09:19] Nobody's gonna have a job

[00:09:21] So it needs to be tied in

[00:09:24] To organizational success

[00:09:28] Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly

[00:09:30] I'm seeing a lot of companies these days

[00:09:34] Especially being a wellness

[00:09:36] Has always been the first thing to go

[00:09:38] When times are tight

[00:09:40] And in the workplace

[00:09:43] Since COVID

[00:09:44] There's so much more awareness around that

[00:09:47] And one of the trends I've noticed is

[00:09:51] This, I guess, slide or lean

[00:09:55] Or focus on digital

[00:09:57] And everyone's got the mental health apps

[00:10:00] And they can be amazing tools

[00:10:03] But without addressing the interpersonal factors

[00:10:08] Within the organization

[00:10:10] All the mental health apps and websites

[00:10:14] And portals are essentially useless

[00:10:17] Because they're just at band-aids

[00:10:20] Yes, totally

[00:10:23] And I've been focused a lot on culture

[00:10:26] Over the last number of years

[00:10:28] And if you have a toxic culture

[00:10:31] All of those band-aids won't work

[00:10:33] Because it's going to make people sick

[00:10:35] Basically, it's going to make people unwell

[00:10:38] And a culture can turn into a toxic one

[00:10:42] In a heck of a hurry

[00:10:43] If you have toxic people at the top

[00:10:46] So I am starting a research project

[00:10:48] On the behaviors and

[00:10:51] How do I say it?

[00:10:53] The behaviors and impacts of toxic leadership

[00:10:55] In organizations

[00:10:57] So how would you define toxic leadership?

[00:11:01] So toxic leadership are

[00:11:03] When someone in a supervisory position

[00:11:06] Or a position where they have direct reports

[00:11:10] And that can be from the CEO

[00:11:12] All the way to a first-time supervisor

[00:11:15] Is when their behaviors do damage

[00:11:18] To the person's ability to be productive

[00:11:21] And their ability to feel well

[00:11:24] About themselves, their confidence

[00:11:26] Their stress, their well-being

[00:11:29] And it can take a variety of forms

[00:11:32] And I'm still on a learning journey with this, by the way

[00:11:34] But it can take the form of narcissistic behaviors

[00:11:38] Bullying abusive behaviors

[00:11:41] Passive aggressive leadership

[00:11:44] Sliding a whole bunch of other things as well

[00:11:48] But those are some examples

[00:11:51] Yeah, and then I guess from what you said

[00:11:54] Is the culture is in part determined

[00:11:57] By the actions of all the leaders

[00:11:59] But how do the individual leaders

[00:12:01] In the cultures interact with each other

[00:12:03] Across the whole organization?

[00:12:06] And what are some of the...

[00:12:08] Oh gosh, I always say I think culture

[00:12:12] You can have an organizational-like culture initiative

[00:12:15] Or have a culture that is something

[00:12:18] That you work on as a company

[00:12:21] But the bigger the company, the more subcultures there are

[00:12:25] Just by the way of how it's structured

[00:12:28] And you can have one subculture being toxic

[00:12:32] While some of the others aren't

[00:12:35] But the problem is toxicity tends to spread

[00:12:38] And you have to be very vigilant about

[00:12:42] Looking at it, understanding it, seeing it

[00:12:45] Where it is, catching it, finding it

[00:12:48] And that needs to be something that's done from the top

[00:12:51] But the problem is at the top, if you have too much ego

[00:12:55] It's really difficult to let the ego

[00:12:59] Aside so that you can actually

[00:13:02] Want to understand and understand your impact

[00:13:06] And try to make a difference throughout the organizational culture

[00:13:11] I have a lot to say on this, but it's something

[00:13:14] I'm really passionate about

[00:13:16] And I think culture is formed leader by leader

[00:13:18] So you've got to address the leadership

[00:13:21] Yeah, and you made a good point about starting at the top

[00:13:24] Really comes down to what are senior leaders

[00:13:28] Willing to put up with

[00:13:31] And the actions and behaviors

[00:13:34] What gets rewarded, what gets ignored

[00:13:37] What gets addressed directly

[00:13:40] And we see, at least I've seen

[00:13:44] In clients who worked with a big disconnect between

[00:13:47] The marketed culture of the organization

[00:13:51] And the day-to-day reality

[00:13:54] The super driven results at all costs

[00:13:58] Leaders get rewarded financially

[00:14:01] They get promoted

[00:14:04] So it's looking at the not just the what

[00:14:07] Or the results, but looking at the how

[00:14:09] And the human impact

[00:14:11] And there's no doubt about it

[00:14:13] The human impact, if you have toxicity

[00:14:15] Eventually it's going to harm your production

[00:14:18] And your success

[00:14:20] It just may take a while

[00:14:22] And yeah, it's really tricky

[00:14:26] But it's a values-based thing

[00:14:28] It's about what do you really value

[00:14:30] As a culture and an organization

[00:14:32] And you shouldn't be putting up those values

[00:14:34] If they're not showing through in behaviors

[00:14:37] And leaders are being held accountable

[00:14:39] And people are being held accountable

[00:14:41] For honoring and living out those values

[00:14:44] Otherwise it does so much damage

[00:14:46] With the hypocrisy of all of that

[00:14:48] Agreed, yeah, and I've seen

[00:14:53] Coaching clients come in and their

[00:14:56] This is an event session about

[00:14:58] What their workplace is like

[00:14:59] And what their boss did today

[00:15:01] And what the, I guess

[00:15:04] The organizational or operational

[00:15:07] Norms that are in place

[00:15:10] Are not useful or functional

[00:15:12] And they're creating this tension

[00:15:14] And stress and teams and departments

[00:15:19] Because of what leaders are

[00:15:23] Not addressing or what they're just

[00:15:26] Not even noticing sometimes

[00:15:29] And I think another trend is that

[00:15:32] Young people, younger generations

[00:15:35] Are not wanting to put up

[00:15:38] With as much of the corporate BS

[00:15:41] As maybe the generations before

[00:15:44] Where for boomers, oh it was a rite

[00:15:46] Of passage, it was just the way

[00:15:48] It was done, right?

[00:15:49] For my generation, generation X

[00:15:51] It was, yeah we don't like it

[00:15:53] But you gotta, you don't want

[00:15:56] To risk your job or, right?

[00:15:58] But the younger generations are saying

[00:16:00] You know what, I'll leave

[00:16:02] I'll go to the next one

[00:16:04] If it doesn't align with my values

[00:16:06] And if it doesn't make sense

[00:16:08] And it's, it doesn't make sense

[00:16:11] For me to be in an office 40 hours a week

[00:16:14] Doing things on my computer

[00:16:16] That I could do half the time from home

[00:16:18] That that doesn't make sense

[00:16:20] So I think that an organization

[00:16:22] Has to be really careful about flexible work policies

[00:16:24] Because bringing everyone back to the office

[00:16:28] Is a sign of a culture of distrust

[00:16:31] And a sign of a culture where

[00:16:34] Presenteism is key to performance

[00:16:39] And I think those are really

[00:16:42] Dangerous traits to have as a culture

[00:16:45] If you don't trust your people

[00:16:47] And that's why you're bringing them back

[00:16:49] And then they use the reason

[00:16:51] Our culture is better if we're together

[00:16:53] And say, but do you need to be together

[00:16:55] 40 hours a week? Really?

[00:16:57] Are you making great use of that 40 hours

[00:16:59] Every hour counts for collaboration and culture

[00:17:02] Or are people on their computers a lot

[00:17:05] Getting work done that they could have done

[00:17:07] Other places

[00:17:09] And you brought up two points there

[00:17:11] One is trust and we will dive into that

[00:17:13] For sure and the other one was

[00:17:15] The presenteism aspect

[00:17:17] And that's something that's not addressed

[00:17:19] A lot in workplaces

[00:17:21] But something that I've over my career

[00:17:23] Tried to promote and really raise awareness

[00:17:26] Of in organizations when we're consulting with them

[00:17:29] Is all the studies about how

[00:17:33] Actually effective and productive people

[00:17:35] Are throughout the day are stunningly low

[00:17:39] In terms of presenteism

[00:17:41] And there are lots of factors that contribute

[00:17:43] To that as you said

[00:17:45] External to work as well as internal

[00:17:48] But it's three, three and a half hours per day

[00:17:52] That people are actually directly focused

[00:17:56] And productive from some of the more recent studies

[00:17:58] That I've seen

[00:18:00] And that is crazy

[00:18:04] Yeah, it's definitely not 40 hours

[00:18:07] Actually talking to the gentleman Andrew Barnes

[00:18:10] Who was one of the founders

[00:18:12] Of the four-day workweek global movement

[00:18:15] And that's exactly what they find

[00:18:18] Is that people don't need to be employed

[00:18:21] For five days a week

[00:18:23] They can do it in four

[00:18:24] And when they do it in four

[00:18:25] They're more productive on those four days

[00:18:27] In order to honor the flexibility

[00:18:30] Of the fifth day in their lives

[00:18:33] Do you know what I mean?

[00:18:34] They get as much done in the four days

[00:18:37] And the data says that over

[00:18:40] And I'm going to learn more about that

[00:18:41] I'm going to read their latest data

[00:18:43] But it's just what you say, Tim

[00:18:46] It's that people are not productive

[00:18:49] Eight hours a day, five days a week

[00:18:52] On average

[00:18:53] And that's another factor

[00:18:54] That I've addressed in various programs

[00:18:57] We've run too is that the whole mindset

[00:19:00] Of leaders and this comes back to

[00:19:02] The trust that you talked about

[00:19:04] Is you got a clock in it, nine o'clock

[00:19:06] And you clock out at five

[00:19:08] And whether you're actually using

[00:19:09] A physical punched clock

[00:19:11] And no one uses that anymore

[00:19:12] But there's the mindset of this

[00:19:14] Nine to five

[00:19:15] You show up and do your work

[00:19:17] And you take your lunch break, maybe

[00:19:19] And then you work till the end of the day

[00:19:23] A lot of people, especially when we talk

[00:19:26] About neurodiversity have trouble

[00:19:29] In that box

[00:19:32] And by adapting and adjusting

[00:19:35] What we do and how we approach work

[00:19:38] We're able to not only help people

[00:19:41] Be happier, healthier and thrive

[00:19:44] But be more productive

[00:19:46] They will get more work done in less time

[00:19:49] By structuring the work day

[00:19:52] In ways that help people improve their energy

[00:19:56] Improve their focus, improve collaboration

[00:19:59] And teamwork and do all these things

[00:20:01] And a lot of that doesn't have to do

[00:20:03] With being physically in the same office

[00:20:05] Exactly

[00:20:07] Yeah, culture is not just the physical artifacts

[00:20:10] And the bumping into each other in the halls

[00:20:12] And culture is so much more than that

[00:20:15] It's how you rally around someone who's struggling

[00:20:18] And it's how you serve a client

[00:20:21] Who needs something from you

[00:20:23] And how you make decisions

[00:20:24] And how much autonomy and trust you have

[00:20:27] That's all part of being in a culture

[00:20:30] And yeah, I call BS on

[00:20:32] You need to be together 40 hours a week

[00:20:34] Unless you're on an assembly line

[00:20:36] Where the thing that I'm doing goes to Tim

[00:20:38] And then it goes to the next person

[00:20:40] Yeah, we need to be together for that

[00:20:42] But yeah, I have news

[00:20:43] Anything repetitive like that will be AI in the future

[00:20:47] And...

[00:20:49] From what we've talked about before

[00:20:52] And what I've seen from some of your work

[00:20:54] Is talk a little bit more about the remote work

[00:20:57] And the hybrid

[00:20:59] Being able to still maintain an effective culture

[00:21:03] What types of things need to happen for that to

[00:21:07] Thrive

[00:21:08] For people to thrive in remote or hybrid culture

[00:21:12] Yeah, so first of all it's...

[00:21:15] Again, I think culture is team by team

[00:21:18] So each team or unit or working unit

[00:21:22] Might have different idiosyncrasies

[00:21:24] In the way that they do their work

[00:21:26] And the way that they collaborate

[00:21:28] And the coordination and handoff of things

[00:21:31] Etc

[00:21:32] So if you think of a team of programmers

[00:21:34] Compared to a team of sales people

[00:21:37] It's very different

[00:21:39] Like it's the amount of the verbal exchange

[00:21:41] The amount of client interaction

[00:21:43] Etc

[00:21:44] So we have to say A, it's not a one size fits all

[00:21:47] B, it differs team by team

[00:21:50] And there's this concept that I talk a lot about

[00:21:52] Called me versus we

[00:21:54] So it's important that as a leader

[00:21:56] You understand what Tim's needs are

[00:21:59] What Laura's needs are

[00:22:01] We may each have different needs

[00:22:03] In terms of I might really appreciate

[00:22:07] Going into an office, right?

[00:22:09] I might have two little kids at home

[00:22:11] With a nanny and I need to get out of that house

[00:22:15] Because it's gonna...

[00:22:16] The kids are gonna constantly interrupt me

[00:22:18] I may not have a good home office set up

[00:22:21] In my home

[00:22:22] And I love the structure of the office

[00:22:24] And I may need that

[00:22:26] And people on the other hand may have a place in Camor

[00:22:29] That you want to spend Thursday through Sunday at

[00:22:32] And you may want to and need to work remotely

[00:22:35] In order to do that a day or two a week

[00:22:37] And then someone else might prefer three days a week

[00:22:40] Remote because of the nature of their job

[00:22:42] So it's important to understand

[00:22:44] Each of us have unique needs

[00:22:46] In terms of our lives, our commute times

[00:22:49] Our...the ability to work

[00:22:51] Based on our personality and our work style

[00:22:55] On top of that, there's the we

[00:22:57] What we need as a team

[00:22:59] What we need to help serve the other people on our team

[00:23:03] Like what our leader needs, right?

[00:23:06] It's about, okay, what are the broader needs here

[00:23:09] And let's find a compromise that'll serve me and we

[00:23:13] And as a team we'll figure out

[00:23:15] Okay, how many overlap days do we need

[00:23:18] And during those days

[00:23:19] What are we going to intentionally focus on

[00:23:21] To make the best possible use

[00:23:23] Of the interactive in person time

[00:23:26] And then when we're apart

[00:23:27] How are we going to communicate

[00:23:29] How are we going to stay in sync, etc

[00:23:31] And what are my expectations when I reach out

[00:23:34] What hours will you be available

[00:23:36] How quickly will you respond

[00:23:38] And you start to build trust that way

[00:23:41] In terms of you're there when you say you'll be there

[00:23:44] And you're reliable and work gets done

[00:23:46] Regardless of where you are

[00:23:48] So that's the way that I always suggest it is

[00:23:52] To do a team playbook or charter

[00:23:54] Around how each team is going to function

[00:23:57] In a hybrid model

[00:23:59] Yeah, and that realistically should be happening

[00:24:03] Whether you're in the office or not

[00:24:05] Is here's our mission vision values

[00:24:07] Here's our purpose

[00:24:08] Here's the goals we're shooting for

[00:24:10] Here are the expectations of how we interact as a team

[00:24:14] And here are the check-ins

[00:24:16] And my wife likes to say trust but verify

[00:24:19] Trust that people are going to want to do the work

[00:24:23] But you need to verify by checking in with them

[00:24:26] One thing I've seen over the past few years

[00:24:30] Talking to coaching clients and just colleagues

[00:24:33] Within the corporate industries

[00:24:36] Is that great leaders are people focused

[00:24:43] And they're checking in

[00:24:45] And they're making sure that their teams have what they want

[00:24:48] And they were doing that before

[00:24:50] But it's really highlighted for leaders

[00:24:54] Since we've moved to the remote or hybrid

[00:24:59] Is because technical leaders that are used to doing the work

[00:25:03] And not leading people

[00:25:06] Are their teams are languishing

[00:25:10] Because they're not checking in with them

[00:25:13] They're not making that personal connection

[00:25:16] They're not helping them work through the challenges

[00:25:20] You need to show up at the office

[00:25:22] So I can make sure you're there and doing your work

[00:25:24] It's to you, yeah

[00:25:26] Exactly, bums and seats, right?

[00:25:28] Yeah, it's just...

[00:25:30] And the younger generations

[00:25:32] Some of them are going to copy us on this

[00:25:34] And they already are and they'll walk

[00:25:36] Yeah

[00:25:38] Yeah, it's the...

[00:25:41] I love the fact that the younger generations

[00:25:43] Are not putting up with the status quo

[00:25:46] As a business owner, entrepreneur

[00:25:48] Like the corporate world has not ever made a lot of sense to me

[00:25:52] Because even when I was a personal trainer many years ago

[00:25:56] I would deal with the aftermath or the fallout

[00:25:59] Of stress and burnout in the workplace

[00:26:02] And people would come to go to the gym

[00:26:04] And I'm like, you're a mess

[00:26:06] Your body's not ready to perform in the gym

[00:26:09] Because you're not taking care of yourself

[00:26:11] Your work environment is toxic

[00:26:14] The laundry list of things that weren't happening

[00:26:18] Yet that was just seen as the status quo

[00:26:21] It's like, we've got to do the grind

[00:26:23] We've got to put in the work

[00:26:25] I just have to put up with it

[00:26:27] Because that's what's always been done

[00:26:29] And now this next generation is like, hell no

[00:26:31] I don't want that

[00:26:33] Yeah

[00:26:36] How long do you think it's going to take to

[00:26:38] Create and get the flywheel going for long-term change?

[00:26:44] Oh Lord, first of all, generations

[00:26:47] So there's lots of, there's mindsets

[00:26:49] And you can have generational tendencies

[00:26:52] And not be in that generation

[00:26:55] So sometimes I'm seeing leaders who are in their 30s

[00:26:59] Okay, that have boomer mentalities

[00:27:02] When it comes to work as a place

[00:27:05] Not an activity, I must see you

[00:27:07] So just because someone's in a younger demographic

[00:27:10] Does not mean that they are open to flexibility and trust

[00:27:16] But I think overall, if we were to look at the trends in general

[00:27:20] I think the genie's out of the bottle

[00:27:22] This isn't going away

[00:27:24] And people will speak with their feet

[00:27:26] The problem is we have an unstable economy

[00:27:29] With high interest rates

[00:27:31] And the market has softened

[00:27:33] And now employers are saying, okay

[00:27:35] Yeah, no, I'm not worried about losing people

[00:27:37] Where are they going to go?

[00:27:39] Versus before it was the great resignation

[00:27:41] And the fight for talent

[00:27:43] Now they get way too complacent too quickly

[00:27:46] And I think what's going to happen is the next time

[00:27:50] There's a shortage of talent, etc

[00:27:53] It's the ones that espouse flexibility

[00:27:56] And trust their people and have healthy

[00:27:59] Versus toxic cultures

[00:28:01] Where people are going to want to work

[00:28:03] End of story

[00:28:06] Yeah, and we're already seeing some of that

[00:28:11] But like you said, I think it will take

[00:28:14] Quite a bit longer to really see the longer term impact

[00:28:18] Of living into people and culture more

[00:28:26] Than just flat out business results

[00:28:29] The companies that focus on both

[00:28:31] Are going to thrive long term

[00:28:35] I really believe that

[00:28:37] 100% believe that

[00:28:39] And I believe in the impacts

[00:28:41] I believe in karma, I believe in

[00:28:43] If you are negatively treating people

[00:28:47] Chances are it's going to come back at you

[00:28:50] So you've got to be very...

[00:28:53] How you treat people matters

[00:28:55] And I just posted on this today

[00:28:57] How you treat people in layoffs matters

[00:29:00] Because it's the people who stay

[00:29:02] Who remember how you treated their friends and colleagues

[00:29:07] And it's those friends and colleagues

[00:29:09] Who are gone that they're going to either say

[00:29:12] Neutral things about your company

[00:29:14] Or terrible things

[00:29:16] Or maybe good things

[00:29:18] Depending on how you handled it

[00:29:20] Maybe they were ready for a change too

[00:29:22] They were handled with dignity

[00:29:24] Treated fairly

[00:29:25] Given a good package

[00:29:27] Given career transition support

[00:29:29] Which is one of the things

[00:29:31] My company Canada Career Counseling does

[00:29:33] But they're treated with fairness

[00:29:36] And then they're likely to be ambassadors

[00:29:38] Versus out to get your culture

[00:29:41] Flaming it on Glassdoor and indeed

[00:29:44] Despite all this negative energy

[00:29:46] Out there is not good for your reputation

[00:29:50] On that note, we've got

[00:29:52] A lot of companies now

[00:29:54] Back to work five days a week

[00:29:56] What are the repercussions of that?

[00:29:58] So first of all, the wording

[00:30:00] Back to work is something that I'm on a mission

[00:30:02] To change because it's not back to work

[00:30:04] It's back to the office

[00:30:06] Yes

[00:30:07] Back to work is actually

[00:30:09] A form of microaggression

[00:30:11] Because it's like you weren't working that hard

[00:30:13] Before Laura

[00:30:14] Get your butt into this seat

[00:30:16] And then you'll be working hard

[00:30:18] Yeah

[00:30:19] So it's subtle

[00:30:21] That it's a languaging thing

[00:30:23] And you can't catch it all over the place

[00:30:25] I'm so glad you mentioned that

[00:30:27] Don't worry, it's easy

[00:30:29] I've even done it, right?

[00:30:31] My husband, you always do it

[00:30:33] I correct him every time

[00:30:35] And then it starts to take

[00:30:37] 150 corrections because

[00:30:39] It's work is a place

[00:30:42] It's like a noun

[00:30:44] It's combined as a verb

[00:30:47] And a noun in one

[00:30:49] And this whole notion

[00:30:51] Of where you can work from other places

[00:30:53] Is it's about the notion of

[00:30:55] Where are you working from today?

[00:30:57] And if I'm calling everybody back

[00:30:59] Five days a week

[00:31:01] You better have a profound why

[00:31:03] About that

[00:31:04] Because people are going to see through the BS

[00:31:06] And they're going to see, you don't trust me

[00:31:08] You don't care about

[00:31:10] Where I work best

[00:31:12] You don't care about

[00:31:14] Soul-sucking commutes

[00:31:16] That I'm going to have to do

[00:31:18] And I'm going to be on

[00:31:20] Online a lot of the time anyway

[00:31:22] It's just, it has to be well thought out

[00:31:26] And you need to hear your employees' voices in it

[00:31:29] And I've just seen senior leadership

[00:31:31] Just say enough everybody back

[00:31:33] We're not doing this hybrid thing

[00:31:35] We don't do hybrid

[00:31:37] We come together as a culture

[00:31:39] And I would say that's a symptom

[00:31:41] Of not a great culture

[00:31:43] I'd be shocked if it's a great culture

[00:31:45] And you've done that to your people

[00:31:47] And the牛 has one percent

[00:31:49] Yes, absolutely

[00:31:51] And I'd say it's a failure in leadership

[00:31:53] To build that

[00:31:55] The trust, the accountability

[00:31:57] The skills in there

[00:31:59] They're leaders across the organization

[00:32:01] To create thriving teams

[00:32:04] And thank you again

[00:32:06] For bringing up the point

[00:32:08] Of the back to work

[00:32:10] Versus back to office

[00:32:12] It's very much like the social distancing

[00:32:14] Versus physical distancing

[00:32:16] know, we're just physically not together, but we're still

[00:32:19] connected and we can still build a relationship and a culture

[00:32:22] and teams.

[00:32:26] Exactly. Maybe because I've done it my whole career. So when I

[00:32:29] finished my masters in 1999, I was on virtual teams and my

[00:32:35] team was in Calgary, Toronto and New York. And then we got

[00:32:39] acquired by a global firm. So I had colleagues all over and I

[00:32:43] was used to communicating and collaborating from a distance. And

[00:32:47] I felt like I had some really good mentors. I had some really

[00:32:51] good colleagues. I had some colleagues that we developed

[00:32:54] great bonds before we even met in person. And I experienced all

[00:32:59] that. And anyone that says you can't have culture unless you're

[00:33:02] together every day, like, that doesn't make sense to me.

[00:33:07] Wholeheartedly. Yeah, I've had some great guests on the show

[00:33:10] that have built globally distributed teams and companies

[00:33:16] and are thriving. You can absolutely do it. And people

[00:33:21] say, Oh, that's just like software. We're not a software

[00:33:24] company. And it's not just that. It's the mindset of

[00:33:28] leadership to put the work into change their skill set and

[00:33:33] change their perspective on what it takes to build thriving

[00:33:39] teams and people.

[00:33:41] Exactly. And it's not a one size fits all. And it's not a one

[00:33:45] size fits all for a team. Every team is different. And again,

[00:33:49] like coming to the office every day that if that works for you

[00:33:52] and your job, then great, right? Awesome. It just doesn't

[00:33:57] work for everyone.

[00:33:58] Yeah.

[00:34:00] And explain a bit about what your definition is of flexible

[00:34:04] work. Flexibility can be time. So you can have flexibility

[00:34:10] about your start time, your end time, that sort of thing. Time

[00:34:15] is one metric. And then location is another metric. So

[00:34:19] you're flexible to work. And usually it's from home, but

[00:34:23] you're flexible to work from home, your recreational

[00:34:26] property, a coffee shop if you focus well in that way, who

[00:34:30] know, security issues and stuff to play into all of this, of

[00:34:34] course. But it there's the flexibility is about time and

[00:34:40] location primarily.

[00:34:44] And how does that relate to mental health? What are the

[00:34:48] stats showing or study showing?

[00:34:51] Yeah, so it's idiosyncratic. So it depends on the person,

[00:34:56] right? So some people get get their most social connection

[00:35:01] through coming into an office and being around human beings,

[00:35:05] because maybe they do not have that in their personal life.

[00:35:10] Maybe they're single, they live alone, they're quite

[00:35:13] isolated. And those ones really struggled during the

[00:35:16] pandemic really sucked for them. So like those people, if

[00:35:23] you eroded an office and you said we're going to be 100%

[00:35:26] remote, it probably wouldn't be as good for their mental

[00:35:29] health. On the flip side of it is some people who have social

[00:35:35] anxiety or different forms of anxiety, they or their hike

[00:35:40] they're sensitive, they're highly sensitive person, or

[00:35:44] they're neuro divergent, right? Certain forms of neuro

[00:35:48] divergence and neuro diversity do better from a home location.

[00:35:54] They're less triggered, there's less things in the environment

[00:35:57] that'll distract them or impact their stress levels, their

[00:36:03] focus, their productivity, micro aggressions. So diverse

[00:36:07] groups report fewer micro aggressions when you don't

[00:36:11] have the face to face comments of the office and things or

[00:36:16] in groups, out groups of the office. So I'm the one who sees

[00:36:21] everyone going to lunch and I'm not invited things like that,

[00:36:25] but it can be those in groups and out groups form more easily

[00:36:29] at the office. So those are just considerations, but

[00:36:34] flexibility is inclusivity. So if you don't have

[00:36:38] flexibility, you're not being as inclusive with

[00:36:40] different working needs and personal needs.

[00:36:46] And how does just autonomy of choice fit into it? I know one

[00:36:52] of the if we go to the Gallup like the Q12 or whatever, one of

[00:36:58] the questions is, do you feel you have control over your

[00:37:03] decisions at work? And how would flexibility fit into that

[00:37:09] if people can choose whether they come into the office or

[00:37:11] not? I know that's another form of autonomy. But what are

[00:37:14] you seeing in that area?

[00:37:16] It's a huge form of autonomy. And one of the reasons people

[00:37:19] are resisting this call back and heard the cattle back to the

[00:37:23] office, I call it is because they are losing their autonomy.

[00:37:28] And they're losing the choice. And when you take away

[00:37:32] choice from people that had the choice, it's not a good

[00:37:36] thing. It's like the gift of flexibility is a gift and

[00:37:40] you're taking it away. It's almost like saying to someone,

[00:37:45] you're going to get a bonus and then you're not going to get a

[00:37:47] bonus, right? So it changes the conditions of your, your work

[00:37:54] agreement, whether it's a paper agreement or a psychological

[00:37:57] contract, where you came on to this company because they

[00:38:01] did have flexible work and they did trust me to work two

[00:38:05] days from home and now they're trusting me to work zero

[00:38:08] days from home. So my choice is taken away. That's a real

[00:38:11] problem for human motivation and commitment.

[00:38:16] And I know I'd be conscious of our time today, and this could

[00:38:20] be a whole other podcast episode on its own, but to open

[00:38:23] Pandora's box by saying how does that lead into the stress

[00:38:27] burnout equation?

[00:38:31] I honestly think

[00:38:35] Pivoting back to full time in the office scenario impacts

[00:38:41] people's stress and it is a condition in a workplace that

[00:38:45] can contribute to burnout in some people, depending on a whole

[00:38:51] number of factors. But it definitely works against

[00:38:56] wellness overall. It works against wellness overall. And

[00:39:01] I'm not a fan of 100% remote either in a lot of cases. I

[00:39:05] think if a company's declared 100% remote, that's fine.

[00:39:10] People can self select into that. And I've seen great

[00:39:13] examples of that working well. But it's, it's I think a lot

[00:39:17] of times people do benefit from some over a lot time and the

[00:39:23] two three days split tends to be the best in terms of most

[00:39:28] people's personality and lifestyles can fit somewhere in the

[00:39:32] two three days split. And then you have exceptions to that such

[00:39:36] as the one day remote or the one day in the office sort of

[00:39:41] things, but the value proposition of having an office

[00:39:44] and stuff and utilizing it to come together two or three

[00:39:47] days seems to be what makes a lot of sense for a lot of

[00:39:53] factors.

[00:39:54] Mm hmm. Well, I know some of the globally or nationally

[00:39:58] distributed remote first workplaces will use the like

[00:40:05] every quarter or something or a couple times a quarter, they'll

[00:40:08] bring everyone together in one spot and have more of a

[00:40:13] collaboration. And it can look like a lot of different things.

[00:40:16] It could be a planning day, a strategic day or all kinds of

[00:40:21] different I've seen lots of different options for that, but

[00:40:23] it brings people physically into one spot almost like many

[00:40:26] conferences once or twice a quarter and people have said

[00:40:32] it works really well. And then the rest of the time they're

[00:40:35] just connecting remotely. And yeah, so I'm seeing that and a

[00:40:40] lot of the local companies wouldn't necessarily have to

[00:40:44] go to that means but borrowing some of those strategies can

[00:40:49] work depending on again how you set the expectations. What's

[00:40:52] the psychological or even written contract that we have

[00:40:55] with people and how are we living into that and helping

[00:40:59] people?

[00:41:00] Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, there's a lot of work to be done in

[00:41:05] leadership in general I would say when you think of some of

[00:41:09] the best leaders that you've ever worked for they're not

[00:41:12] that many right there's a lot more stories people have of

[00:41:15] difficult leaders than great ones which is why I'm really

[00:41:19] driven to do this toxic leadership research to see the

[00:41:22] current state of toxic leadership post pandemic and in

[00:41:26] this end a lot of negative news in the media and all this

[00:41:29] going on. I'm curious about how toxic leadership is

[00:41:33] playing out. And my hypothesis is that it is a major

[00:41:39] contributor to mental health for people and to burn out.

[00:41:44] I yeah, I would support that hypothesis.

[00:41:49] That goes back to the old saying is people don't leave a

[00:41:52] company to leave their boss.

[00:41:55] Yeah, when we look at the number one

[00:41:59] cause of stress in the workplace it's usually conflict

[00:42:03] with their leader. Second would probably be workloads these

[00:42:08] days but I've seen lots of different stats on that so if

[00:42:11] we look long long term let's say mid midterm what about the

[00:42:17] next one to three years? What do you see as the shift you

[00:42:22] already said is not going away but how do you think it's

[00:42:24] going to evolve?

[00:42:28] I think there's good. It's going to be there's this

[00:42:31] pull to the way it was before which is almost

[00:42:34] nostalgic right I want it to be the way it was before

[00:42:37] where work is a building that you go to and there's

[00:42:41] going to be this continued hold there's going to be this

[00:42:44] resistance and a market conditions and then more

[00:42:48] people retiring from the oldest generation where we have a

[00:42:51] higher percentage of work is a place right they grew up

[00:42:54] with that they didn't grow up with the technologies. Once

[00:42:58] the generation Zed or C gets in there more and more in

[00:43:04] leadership roles I think that's going to be a major

[00:43:07] turning point but I think the road is paved now for

[00:43:11] organizations are going to use this and they're going to

[00:43:15] stake their claim in terms of I'm a flexible organization

[00:43:18] or I'm an organization where work is a place and then

[00:43:22] people will self select in and out or they'll leave

[00:43:25] yeah they'll leave the organizations that aren't

[00:43:28] fit and employers of choice ones who win the awards

[00:43:32] like best employer in Canada and stuff they'll tend

[00:43:35] to be ones that embrace flexibility and are human

[00:43:38] centric in their approaches and more mature when it comes

[00:43:42] to talent people treating talent well and developing

[00:43:47] people and supporting people as human beings.

[00:43:53] Yeah it comes down to marketing right what's who's

[00:43:55] your target market what's your what's your company

[00:43:58] about and I've had conversations with senior

[00:44:01] leaders where I've said hey it's like if you want

[00:44:04] to run a sweatshop like literally that's okay I

[00:44:08] might not agree with it but if that's what you

[00:44:11] envision market the crap out of that there are going

[00:44:14] to be people that resonate with that I'm going

[00:44:16] to pay you a lot of money show up at work shut

[00:44:19] up and go home and when you burn out I'll hire

[00:44:22] someone else and pay them lots of money like

[00:44:25] that's been the status quo in lots of industries

[00:44:30] for a lot of years and there are people that

[00:44:33] will do that but if that's how you are operating

[00:44:38] don't say you're a flexible workplace and you've got

[00:44:40] this great culture that's the biggest value

[00:44:45] employee you value your people or you value

[00:44:49] well-being or like these sorts of words you

[00:44:53] gotta be really careful if you don't practice

[00:44:55] them then don't preach them because yeah walls

[00:44:59] don't hold up values leaders do and the leaders

[00:45:02] need to be living out these values and yeah and

[00:45:07] the CEO or the chair of the board of directors

[00:45:09] they need to have the courage to understand

[00:45:13] act on and address toxic leadership from the

[00:45:16] top down yeah and the problem is if they're

[00:45:20] the problem then they're not gonna no way

[00:45:24] exactly and I think that I'm going to make up

[00:45:26] a stat here 95% of toxic leaders think

[00:45:31] they're good leaders yeah but yeah 70% of people

[00:45:36] think they're above average so yeah exactly yeah and

[00:45:41] okay I definitely want to have you back on the

[00:45:43] show at some point we can check next year we'll

[00:45:45] meet and talk about the evolution of what's

[00:45:47] happened and we can talk about some of the

[00:45:50] new research is coming out thank you so much

[00:45:53] Dr. Laura for being on the show I it's been

[00:45:56] pleasure and before we go any websites you

[00:46:00] want to promote where can people look

[00:46:02] yeah sure so dr. Laura dot live that's my

[00:46:06] website and the where work meets life

[00:46:09] podcast I'm having a lot of fun doing it's in

[00:46:12] its fourth season and then I also run

[00:46:15] Canada career counseling so it's the

[00:46:17] biggest group of career psychologists in

[00:46:20] the country and people can use their

[00:46:21] insurance and benefits to see a

[00:46:23] psychologist to talk about career

[00:46:26] workplace pivots they're making in

[00:46:28] their lives stress challenges they're

[00:46:32] facing at work and a lot of people aren't

[00:46:34] aware that there's this branch of

[00:46:35] psychology that's very specialized in

[00:46:38] this arena and a lot of people are

[00:46:40] suffering and struggling at work and

[00:46:43] I'm really privileged that we can help

[00:46:45] people throughout the country to

[00:46:48] figure out their scenarios and make

[00:46:50] pivots where they need to

[00:46:51] wonderful thank you so much I'll make

[00:46:54] sure those go up in the show notes

[00:46:56] so people know where to find you and

[00:46:58] thank you again look forward to seeing

[00:47:00] you for doing the great work you do to

[00:47:02] spread these messages Tim in your

[00:47:04] podcast in your speaking and your

[00:47:06] consulting and coaching that wraps up

[00:47:09] another episode of the working well

[00:47:11] podcast if you enjoyed the show

[00:47:12] please rate review and subscribe

[00:47:15] wherever you get your podcasts which

[00:47:18] guests or topics would you like to see

[00:47:19] featured on the show message me

[00:47:21] through LinkedIn or on the contact

[00:47:23] page of Tim Boris dot com thank you

[00:47:27] for tuning in I'm Tim Boris with

[00:47:29] fresh group and look forward to seeing

[00:47:31] you on the next episode