The Work Wire - Matthew Perry

[00:00:00] You're listening to Work Wire, sponsored by Career Club and SHRM. Career Club has a range of services aimed at job seekers with an empathetic approach.

[00:00:07] Whether you are a job seeker yourself, know someone who is in job search, or an HR professional looking to bring a more empathetic approach to transitioning employees, check out Career.Club.

[00:00:18] If you are an HR professional seeking to enhance your skills, subscribe to SHRM and explore their extensive resources. Visit SHRM.org. That's SHRM.org.

[00:00:31] Hey, everybody. This is Bob Goodwin, president of Career Club, joined by my good friend, president and CEO of SHRM, Johnny C. Taylor, Jr. Johnny, so good to see you.

[00:00:39] Great to see you, my friend.

[00:00:41] Hey, welcome to another episode of The Work Wire. We've got a good topic today.

[00:00:45] We always have good times.

[00:00:46] That's a fair point.

[00:00:49] It's going to start off a little sad, actually, but I think it's going to take us to a good place. It's certainly an instructive place.

[00:00:56] So I'm going to guess that most of our listeners and viewers will be familiar with the show Friends that had an incredible 236 episode run.

[00:01:06] That's incredible.

[00:01:07] So people really genuinely feel like they were part of their family for the years that that show ran.

[00:01:14] Tragically, a year ago, October 2023, one of the stars, Matthew Perry, who played the role of Chandler, died.

[00:01:21] It was found dead in a tub at his home from a drug overdose.

[00:01:27] And what's since happened is that fingers are being pointed as to who is responsible for this from an enabling perspective.

[00:01:37] So as of the time of recording this, you're kind of in early September, five people, including two doctors and Matthew Perry's assistant, who we'll talk about in a second, have been charged in connection with Perry's death.

[00:01:50] The charges were announced by federal prosecutors in August.

[00:01:53] There's a trial date.

[00:01:54] Three of the five defendants, including one of the doctors, have signed plea agreements.

[00:01:59] So they're admitting some level of culpability in this.

[00:02:01] But the drug ketamine was the primary cause of his death.

[00:02:09] So we'll use this kind of the backdrop for some of this is Matthew Perry's personal assistant.

[00:02:14] I'm going to botch his name, I'm sure.

[00:02:16] Kenneth Iwamasa played a significant role in the actor's tragic death.

[00:02:20] Federal authorities alleged that Iwamasa administered multiple doses of ketamine to Perry, including on the day he died.

[00:02:29] Iwamasa, who worked for Perry for over 25 years, admitted to injecting the actor without proper medical training.

[00:02:35] Although he's been charged with conspiracy to distribute, legal experts suggest he may be the least culpable as his actions were part of a larger network of people influencing Matthew Perry.

[00:02:45] So where I was hoping that we could go with this is there is a lot to be said about the power dynamics of a boss, subordinates, the power of ego, the kind of influence that charisma money can have on an individual, on an organization, and particularly the people that work closely with that leader.

[00:03:16] So, you know, what I'm hoping we can unpack here a little bit, some of the power dynamics, blurring of personal and professional boundaries.

[00:03:23] Right.

[00:03:24] Yeah.

[00:03:25] Psychological safety, like, hey, I don't feel good about doing this anymore.

[00:03:29] I need to say something.

[00:03:32] Obviously, with Matthew Perry, mental health, he was, you know, been interviewed many, many times acknowledging he's an addict.

[00:03:39] He's the kind of guy that can't have one drink because one leads to 10.

[00:03:44] And he knew that about himself.

[00:03:46] And so I think that there's a lot that if we kind of just peel past the People magazine cover of this story and kind of look at the organizational and interpersonal dynamics between leaders and the folks who work for them,

[00:04:02] that we may see more of our workplace than meets the eye initially.

[00:04:06] But what's sort of your initial reaction to the story and kind of some of these angles, Johnny?

[00:04:11] Well, your prelude to it was that this is going to end in a bright place.

[00:04:14] And I'm like, really?

[00:04:15] How could after that intro?

[00:04:17] Because seriously, there are so many thorny issues.

[00:04:22] My, well, you know, I spent the beginning of my career in the media, right?

[00:04:27] I was with Icon for seven and a half years.

[00:04:29] And it's a unique and different industry, not unlike anything that involves celebrity, be they television, you know, movies, performers, you know, singers, athletes.

[00:04:44] There's this thing where everyone is drawn to wanting to be a part of that.

[00:04:51] It's literally, I mean, I can't tell you the number of people who would near work for free at VICOM's divisions of Paramount Pictures and MTV and Nickelodeon because it was the place to want to work.

[00:05:04] And most young people are drawn into it because it's a cool job, right?

[00:05:10] Right.

[00:05:10] It may not pay well.

[00:05:11] It may not go anywhere.

[00:05:13] You go into an environment, as you've alluded to, where the power dynamic is, they don't hide it.

[00:05:19] You know it.

[00:05:20] Like these people matter and these people don't.

[00:05:23] And the people who don't, their entire purpose in the whole world is to make the give and make the people who matter happy at all times.

[00:05:33] Yes.

[00:05:33] Yes.

[00:05:34] They know that going in the door.

[00:05:35] I can tell you, I was at VICOM for a significant amount of time and you get the gig.

[00:05:43] So that's where it becomes really interesting because somehow it's a little different when someone is sort of coerced into a gig.

[00:05:51] Or, you know, but you choose to come into that environment and you choose.

[00:05:59] I'm thinking about the person who was Michael Jackson's physician, for example, who, you know, famously was convicted.

[00:06:06] And I don't know if he pleaded guilty or was convicted.

[00:06:08] But the point is he went to jail.

[00:06:11] People, everyone wants to be near the star power.

[00:06:14] And the fear that they will somehow lose that connection is as addictive as the drug that the person in power is utilizing.

[00:06:26] So it's a really sad story on both sides, right?

[00:06:30] I know some really famous people who would love to have friends around them who would be honest with them and to call them out and be their accountability partners.

[00:06:39] But those people are far, they're just hard, they're hard to find them because everyone wants to be connected to Oprah or to, you know what I mean?

[00:06:49] Right?

[00:06:49] So it's just a real tough thing.

[00:06:51] Would you be totally honest with someone who, if it meant you would somehow be taken out of the inner circle?

[00:06:59] Yeah.

[00:06:59] So being around power, influence, right?

[00:07:03] Celebrity, as you're saying.

[00:07:04] I mean, those are things that are very, very attractive to people.

[00:07:08] I'm repeating what you said.

[00:07:10] But at the same time, and maybe this is the peeling it back a little bit, is, you know, if you genuinely care about that person, you know, and maybe there's, that's offset.

[00:07:24] But maybe I'm creating a false, you know, choice here, you know, care versus fear.

[00:07:30] But both of those could coexist, I assume very easily.

[00:07:34] But, you know, I guess you would hope that it's like, and maybe if people did say, Matthew, you've got to stop doing this, man.

[00:07:40] Like, you're going to kill yourself from doing this and say, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I still want what I want.

[00:07:47] And, you know, it's kind of, as you said, that's kind of the gig here.

[00:07:52] So what do you want to do?

[00:07:54] Well, can I, Bob, you know, it's interesting because I think you pose a really interesting question.

[00:07:59] Is it that you care for the person or you fear them or is it both?

[00:08:04] Or fear of losing the gig.

[00:08:05] Fear of losing, I was going to add, the fourth one is not the person.

[00:08:10] It's that point that I made of, I could be out of here and then what?

[00:08:14] And I value that more.

[00:08:17] So in some ways, and this walk with me, maybe you're the bad person.

[00:08:24] And thus the criminal culpability.

[00:08:26] Like, you knew what you were doing.

[00:08:28] You know you're not a medical professional.

[00:08:32] You know you should not be, no matter what, providing, injecting medication into someone.

[00:08:40] You know this.

[00:08:41] I mean, you don't have to have any formal education to know right from wrong, but you fundamentally did it.

[00:08:46] So the question is why?

[00:08:47] Did the person force you to do it?

[00:08:49] Or were you fearful that if you didn't, someone else would do it and then you would be no longer there?

[00:08:55] So it's a really, and you know, so I struggle with the accountability here.

[00:09:01] I know right from wrong.

[00:09:03] And no matter what workplace context you're in, there's always a power dynamic.

[00:09:09] This is a famous person to a not famous person.

[00:09:12] But if you're a Walmart store manager and you are an entry-level employee who needs that job to feed her three children, the power dynamic is as real.

[00:09:24] You need the job and you will.

[00:09:26] But the court is not going to allow you to make decisions that you know are violent of the law and use the excuse of I needed the job.

[00:09:36] So let's, because there's a number of ways we can go with this.

[00:09:40] One would be whistleblowing, basically like you know the right thing to do.

[00:09:43] Are you doing it?

[00:09:44] Right?

[00:09:45] If not, why not?

[00:09:46] What I think about in an everyday context is, okay, Matthew Perry is super famous.

[00:09:54] Michael Jackson, super famous.

[00:09:56] But you know, everybody's world is only as big as it is.

[00:10:00] Right?

[00:10:00] So if I work at XYZ company and Julie is like the most important person at our company, she's the most important person on my team.

[00:10:09] Right?

[00:10:09] I mean, it's no bigger than that.

[00:10:12] Those power dynamics are still in play.

[00:10:15] That's right.

[00:10:16] Right?

[00:10:16] And so whether it's enabling, you know, because then we start, you know, just looking at, like, she's kind of mean to people.

[00:10:25] She's intolerant of people all the way to sexual harassment.

[00:10:30] Yep.

[00:10:30] You know, doing lack of integrity in business dealings.

[00:10:33] Like, all these same dynamics are in play.

[00:10:36] Right?

[00:10:36] Right?

[00:10:39] Just on a smaller scale.

[00:10:41] But they feel the same.

[00:10:43] They are the same.

[00:10:43] Subordinate.

[00:10:45] Right?

[00:10:45] And so I guess I'd love to just unpack that with you a little bit in a way that's relatable to, I suspect, a lot of listeners.

[00:10:53] Gotcha.

[00:10:53] What do we do when we're in this power dynamic?

[00:10:57] And for whatever reason, either I know she's got a drinking problem, as an example, because we've been on business trips together and she, you know, overindulges.

[00:11:09] How do we do that?

[00:11:10] Like, how do we find the right way of having these difficult conversations, knowing that they could go sideways pretty quickly?

[00:11:18] Well, so you and I have talked about the C word, culture.

[00:11:23] And that's at the root of all of this, which is a little different when you're talking a personal services contract.

[00:11:30] The assistant to Matthew Perry works for one person and one person only.

[00:11:35] My guess is Matthew Perry didn't have an HR department.

[00:11:40] Right?

[00:11:40] So as famous as he was, there was not in place the infrastructure.

[00:11:44] So in the world that most of our listeners overwhelmingly live in, this ultimately comes down to what is the organization's culture?

[00:11:54] Will you, is one person so important that they are allowed to do anything and the organization will turn a collective eye?

[00:12:02] The industry, media altogether, that's why we had a Weinstein.

[00:12:06] That's how that was allowed to occur.

[00:12:09] Even when there were, there was a full infrastructure, legal department, HR department, et cetera, no one would call that situation on the carpet.

[00:12:20] Right?

[00:12:21] That's a culture problem.

[00:12:23] We have decided in the language of Wall Street, he or she is too big to fail.

[00:12:29] Mm-hmm.

[00:12:30] And when you do that, you do put the employee in a really compromised position because they already understand that they're fungible.

[00:12:38] And it becomes crystal clear then that if you allow John or Mary to sexually harass you because they're in control, that is a bad thing.

[00:12:49] It's a bad thing for society.

[00:12:50] It's bad for the employees.

[00:12:51] It's bad for the CEO or the leader.

[00:12:54] So we ultimately have to solve this by, you hear me talk about cultural clarity a lot, but being really clear within organizations about what our cultural norms are, what will be tolerated and won't be tolerated.

[00:13:09] And it usually, when you get into the shady and gray area of ethics, it's not, sometimes not even when it's illegal.

[00:13:17] It's just immoral or unethical.

[00:13:20] And we have to be clear with our employees about what kind of organization this is.

[00:13:27] Well, you know, back to the C word, you talk about culture as this is how things actually get done.

[00:13:34] It's not really the employee manual or the posters on the wall or anything else.

[00:13:40] If we turn a blind eye to something, we turn a blind eye to something that's...

[00:13:47] But Bob, I will say there is, you know, I talk a lot and you know, this is, you and I do this a lot.

[00:13:52] But accountability on, let's call it the Matthew Perry side, he knew that he was putting this person in a compromised position as well.

[00:14:01] Whitney Houston notoriously was known for having people obtain her drugs for her.

[00:14:06] Like, you know what you're doing.

[00:14:09] And yes, blame is there.

[00:14:13] I'd love you because normally this is a position you take whenever we have these conversations, my friend, which is why I love...

[00:14:18] What about the culpability of the employee who knows right from wrong, who knows that I am not a phlebotomist?

[00:14:25] Like, I don't know.

[00:14:26] I'm not trained to do this at all.

[00:14:28] So what am I putting a needle in someone's arm for when I know I could kill them?

[00:14:34] And I know this person has publicly said they are sick.

[00:14:38] And I'm actually, you know, I'm making this happen.

[00:14:42] And I watched this show, I know we don't have a task for people's shows, but the 600-pound life, my 600-pound life.

[00:14:51] You're so big, you can't get up and go buy the food.

[00:14:54] Someone oftentimes in your home is enabling this.

[00:14:57] What about the accountability on the other side, Bob?

[00:15:00] Putting it back to you.

[00:15:01] No, no, I would agree that there is a lot of accountability on that side of the equation.

[00:15:10] That most of what we're talking about are not questionable.

[00:15:16] Like, right?

[00:15:17] I mean, in the 600-pound life example, food in that case is poison for that person.

[00:15:25] Right?

[00:15:25] I mean, they are overdoing it and it's going to kill them.

[00:15:28] And everybody knows that.

[00:15:30] Right.

[00:15:30] Right.

[00:15:31] And, you know, that's where I get back to, you know, and again, it's probably a false dichotomy, but, you know, care versus fear.

[00:15:40] So, you know, I'm doing this for my brother because, you know, he's in a lot of pain emotionally, which is why he overeats.

[00:15:48] So, yeah, I go to McDonald's and buy 10 Big Macs and bring them over every day.

[00:15:53] I'm making that up.

[00:15:54] Right.

[00:15:54] And, you know, it's just somehow I have rationalized.

[00:15:59] And that's probably the next word here is rationalization.

[00:16:03] And Rick Warren has a great expression that rationalized is telling ourselves rational lies.

[00:16:12] I love that.

[00:16:13] I love that.

[00:16:14] Never heard that.

[00:16:14] But if so and I'm properly giving the citation to him.

[00:16:18] But that is, I think, oftentimes what happens either, hey, this will go away.

[00:16:24] This will blow over.

[00:16:25] This isn't going to be forever.

[00:16:26] However, if I maybe will be able to talk her out of it over time or, you know what?

[00:16:34] I've got to do what I've got to do because I've got kids at home.

[00:16:38] I've got to pay my bills.

[00:16:39] And so I've got to do what I've got to do.

[00:16:42] There is the gravity of, again, in the case of celebrity, but celebrities in the eyes of the beholder.

[00:16:47] Again, you know, people in very run of the mill companies are celebrities at their companies because of whatever position they occupy.

[00:16:57] But for the worker, just I want to answer your question directly, is it does come down to your values, who you are.

[00:17:08] And, you know, the courage is the next word.

[00:17:12] The courage to do what you believe is the right thing to do.

[00:17:17] And I'm with you that I suspect that Mr. Iwamasa knew that injecting him with ketamine was not in Matthew Perry's best interest, but chose to do it anyway.

[00:17:32] So, yeah, there's there's culpability there, I believe.

[00:17:37] And I think that each of us as individuals have to look ourselves in the mirror and say, who am I?

[00:17:44] Who do I want to be?

[00:17:46] You know, and is this consistent with who I want to be, my self-image?

[00:17:53] And, you know, again, not to, you know, cast dispersions at people and, you know, point out the speck of dust in somebody else's eye when I've got a log in mind.

[00:18:03] But at the same time, people know in a lot of cases what Harvey Weinstein was doing was wrong.

[00:18:11] That there's no black or white.

[00:18:14] It was great.

[00:18:15] And it is what it is, you know, and shooting somebody up with drugs.

[00:18:18] But again, I do believe that if we worked at a run of the mill company and we saw a boss who, you know, would drop F-bombs and curse people out and just, you know, just berating people.

[00:18:32] Right.

[00:18:33] And we, that's, you know, that's kind of how Bob is, you know, like he's a big producer.

[00:18:38] He's the CEO of the company.

[00:18:39] So we, you know what, like at some point you're watching this person harm other people or themselves.

[00:18:47] And I think we have to have the courage to call it out.

[00:18:50] We have to have the empathy to help somebody if they want help.

[00:18:55] Right.

[00:18:56] But at the end of the day, we have to have the courage of our convictions to do the right thing.

[00:19:01] I called it out.

[00:19:02] I tried to work on a solution.

[00:19:05] That goes in two ways.

[00:19:07] Either they wanted to find a solution or they didn't.

[00:19:11] And if they don't, then I have to look myself in the mirror and say, why am I here?

[00:19:14] And that's, that's where it, and I hate to cut to the chase on these things, but, but at the end of the day, we all have, it's your phrase.

[00:19:24] You don't, you don't give your agency away.

[00:19:27] I think is the phrase that you describe it.

[00:19:29] And no matter who I'm around and how intoxicating it might be to be around them, be it to your point, because they're the most important plant supervisor in a town of 10,000 people.

[00:19:44] And they're the big employer.

[00:19:46] That's the world I have, but you've got to, you've got to own that.

[00:19:50] Now, that being said, and I'm going to flip now to the other side, which is, but we do have an obligation.

[00:19:56] Leadership carries with it responsibility.

[00:20:00] And leaders have an obligation not to take advantage of people who have limited, never would say no other options, but have limited options.

[00:20:09] So they are kind of in a bind.

[00:20:11] And I know in the corporate world, you could excuse all day a woman or man, for this matter, who succumbs to a quid pro quo sexual relationship to keep his or her job.

[00:20:25] And I could judge them, but if, and they do own some of that, because you choose to engage in behavior.

[00:20:32] But if I have to tip the scales, it's against the leader, because the leader has the power that you started with, this power dynamic.

[00:20:43] And ultimately, they have more leverage.

[00:20:46] Even if it's by a small number, it's a significant enough leverage to tip the scales against them.

[00:20:51] And that's where we as organizational HR leaders and other business leaders have to start with being real clear about the ethical norms, the values of the organization, and then hold each other accountable.

[00:21:02] Yeah, and maybe that's one thing because of our audience in large measure is if I'm an HR professional, right?

[00:21:14] So, you know, I'm more potentially an observer of something like, you know, this is what's going on in the sales department or going on over in finance.

[00:21:25] How can we, as HR leaders, practitioners, professionals, intercede in those kinds of situations to help affect a better outcome?

[00:21:39] So I've talked on the work choir about this a lot.

[00:21:42] I think there are three Cs, characteristics that make a very strong HR leader, whether they're title is CHRO or if it's HR manager in a small organization, whatever.

[00:21:53] And it's competency, courage, and confidant.

[00:21:59] That confidant, that last C is so important.

[00:22:03] All of us who've been in HR roles, and especially if you've been in a senior role, has seen someone at a senior level operate in a less than positive way.

[00:22:15] But if you are deemed a confidant, if you have trust, that big word T, you can actually pull that person to the side, the manager, and say, hey, Bob, Mary, you're the CEO.

[00:22:30] You're the general manager.

[00:22:32] You're the partner.

[00:22:33] Whatever you are, I observed this, and I don't think you're a bad person.

[00:22:38] Maybe you are.

[00:22:39] But I don't think you're a bad person.

[00:22:41] But the behavior that you're exhibiting right now is bad.

[00:22:45] So one, my job is to bring it to your attention.

[00:22:48] Because it could be that he or she is totally unaware of how they are showing up and the impact of what they're doing.

[00:22:56] Hard to believe, but it literally is.

[00:22:58] There are people who just are unaware of it, and we need to bring them to that awareness.

[00:23:05] And then secondly, it's not enough to just tell someone.

[00:23:08] It's like telling someone who overeats, stop eating.

[00:23:11] Duh.

[00:23:12] No, it's like you also are going to have to help them.

[00:23:15] And I've worked with executives before where I've said, let me tell you what I am witnessing.

[00:23:20] We have a relationship.

[00:23:22] I want to be honest with you and tell you what I'm seeing, non-judgmentally.

[00:23:26] But don't you want to be better than that because of the responsibility of leadership?

[00:23:31] Let me help you.

[00:23:33] Let me be your accountability partner.

[00:23:35] When I see it, I'm going to call you out because the subordinate of yours is afraid to.

[00:23:40] They need this job.

[00:23:42] The power dynamic is such that they will never tell you.

[00:23:46] Because sometimes the response is, well, if you see me doing something wrong, just tell me.

[00:23:49] I don't know.

[00:23:50] It doesn't work that way.

[00:23:51] And so that's where that confidant nature, that relationship and trust that you have to have as an HR professional becomes your best and most valuable currency.

[00:24:01] Okay.

[00:24:01] And can you say your three C's again?

[00:24:03] Competence.

[00:24:04] Competency.

[00:24:05] You've got to start out being competent in HR.

[00:24:06] You've got to know that something actually violates the law or is unethical before you can even identify it.

[00:24:12] And then this idea of having the courage.

[00:24:14] You spoke to it.

[00:24:15] The courage of confronting it.

[00:24:17] But no matter how courageous you are and know how competent you are, if you don't have a relationship where I can walk into your office and say, hey, Bob, can we talk?

[00:24:27] This is what I'm seeing.

[00:24:29] And it's bad.

[00:24:30] Then we don't go anywhere.

[00:24:32] So you need all three of those to be a really strong and effective HR partner.

[00:24:40] Yeah.

[00:24:41] So that's awesome.

[00:24:42] I want to, for people who may not have completely followed what you're saying back on agency for a minute, which I hope helps infuse some of the courage that people need in this.

[00:24:55] Is the idea is that you ultimately always have control of your attitude and your actions.

[00:25:02] Nobody can take that away from you, but you can give it to other people.

[00:25:07] And we do.

[00:25:08] But they could, you know, so kind of like the devil made me do it.

[00:25:11] Well, no, like nobody can take that agency away from you, but you can give it to them.

[00:25:19] The good news is, is you can always take it back.

[00:25:21] If you've slid into giving your control away to somebody else, you can always take it back.

[00:25:27] So can I jump in right there?

[00:25:29] Because to that point, this is kind of where I started with the gentleman who worked for Matthew Perry.

[00:25:34] He essentially did give his agency away.

[00:25:38] Yes.

[00:25:39] Yeah.

[00:25:39] Right?

[00:25:40] Yeah.

[00:25:41] A hundred percent.

[00:25:42] And, you know, we can, this is another little Bob-ism.

[00:25:46] Just because you can explain it doesn't excuse it.

[00:25:48] I love it.

[00:25:49] Yes.

[00:25:50] So for some very good reasons and understandable reasons, he could have been operating in some form of fear, but it could have been, you know, the glamour aspect of it or some soup of a bunch of different things.

[00:26:03] Right.

[00:26:04] All true.

[00:26:05] He's still putting a needle in the guy's arm.

[00:26:07] And that's not okay.

[00:26:10] Right.

[00:26:11] And, you know, watching, again, I want to just continue to kind of put this down into a non-Hollywood, non-celebrity level for people, because we all have probably dealt with this or will deal with this at some level, whether we're the leader or not.

[00:26:26] And that's what we're talking about is that it's incumbent upon the subordinate in this case to say what he or she sees and to be true to your values.

[00:26:37] You know, I know that there's risk associated with that, but I suspect for most people at the end of the day, regret will trump risk.

[00:26:48] And it's like, I could have done the right thing.

[00:26:51] I should have done the right thing.

[00:26:52] I didn't.

[00:26:53] And that's a really lousy place to find yourself because we can't unwind the clock.

[00:26:59] What we can do is have the courage of our convictions to live the life of, you know, integrity that we all want to believe that we have.

[00:27:09] But, you know, the way I think about integrity is you only know it when it's called into question.

[00:27:14] Easy to frame, hard to prove.

[00:27:16] That part.

[00:27:17] That part.

[00:27:18] No, it's a really I'm so glad we're talking about this because it's tough.

[00:27:24] I mean, you also acknowledge that Matthew was a sick man.

[00:27:28] Yeah.

[00:27:29] And so, you know, on one hand, I hold him accountable for it.

[00:27:33] And then the other hand, as I said, I look on the other side and said, you know, you knew this person was in trouble.

[00:27:39] The people who were closest to Whitney Houston, I'm told, knew she was in trouble.

[00:27:43] She couldn't help herself.

[00:27:45] If you're sick, you're sick.

[00:27:46] And therefore, it's bigger than, you know, I can't do this because it's not good for me.

[00:27:53] I can't do it because it's not good for that person.

[00:27:56] And I know it's not.

[00:27:57] And so that's where this gets really complicated.

[00:28:01] But to your point, stardom, fine.

[00:28:05] Celebrity, got it.

[00:28:06] But in real life, it is not good for a married plant manager to be cheating on his wife with everyone in the workforce.

[00:28:13] Like, this is not good for anyone.

[00:28:15] It could lead to incidents of violent workplace violence.

[00:28:18] Like, it's just a mess.

[00:28:19] And so we have to step back and say, you must do this even if you prefer the path of least resistance, which is to ignore it.

[00:28:29] Because that always turns into something not good for you and everyone else involved.

[00:28:36] So it is that conviction that you referred to, that competence of conviction.

[00:28:40] And the idea that you just have to say, we're better than this.

[00:28:44] But I do want to tackle one other part of this whole conversation.

[00:28:49] And that is, what happens, yes, it's pretty clear when the acts that are engaged in are illegal.

[00:28:56] Either civilly illegal in the case of Title VII violations that may yield to result in a penalty, a financial penalty for fine.

[00:29:04] Or prison.

[00:29:06] Or prison.

[00:29:06] But what about the unethical dilemmas?

[00:29:09] The things that don't quite rise to the level of legal consequence, but that create really uncomfortable and unfavorable power dynamic driven.

[00:29:20] Yeah.

[00:29:21] Or prison.

[00:29:22] Yeah.

[00:29:22] Telling that people.

[00:29:23] Yeah, no.

[00:29:23] I was kind of thinking about that earlier when we were talking about, you know, what I'll call a tyrant, kind of a boss, right?

[00:29:31] Who's, you know, swearing and berating people and, you know, what would commonly be known as a toxic work environment, right?

[00:29:40] Again, I think the playbook is the same.

[00:29:43] The context is a little bit different.

[00:29:45] But to your point, you know, hey, Bob, you know, you may not have noticed this, but in the meeting, Mary left in tears.

[00:29:55] Like she was devastated by the way that you were talking and she felt attacked, blah, blah, blah.

[00:30:02] Like call it out.

[00:30:03] And what Bob chooses to do with that, you know, and even making a suggestion, I think next time, you know, what might have been a more helpful approach is X.

[00:30:14] Okay, great.

[00:30:15] So, you know, problem and solution, not just identifying the problem.

[00:30:20] But to me, it all kind of gets back to the same thing, which is I've identified it.

[00:30:27] I have brought it up in a constructive.

[00:30:29] We haven't said another C word today, civil way.

[00:30:33] That's right.

[00:30:33] Right.

[00:30:35] And you've done it with empathy.

[00:30:38] You probably didn't know that you were coming across this way, but the way that it was received was like this.

[00:30:42] I know how it made me feel.

[00:30:44] So I didn't have to project onto somebody else.

[00:30:47] Okay.

[00:30:49] Then we're back to agency on the other person's part.

[00:30:52] That's right.

[00:30:53] I don't care.

[00:30:54] Like this is how I was raised.

[00:30:56] This is how I grew up in business.

[00:30:58] This worked on me.

[00:30:59] It's going to work on other people.

[00:31:00] I had a client, a coaching client this week say that one of the things that they've had to learn across their career, it does turn out to be around language, was he grew up in like a locker room motivation culture.

[00:31:17] That's right.

[00:31:19] That worked for him.

[00:31:20] When he was 25, as a guy and growing up in sports, like he was used to it, that worked on him.

[00:31:26] He's like, well, it worked on me.

[00:31:28] That would work on everybody else.

[00:31:29] Not so.

[00:31:30] And people had to come to him and say, Tim, I don't know what you're doing, but that is not working for people.

[00:31:38] And he was like, I didn't realize that because it worked for me.

[00:31:43] I assume it worked for other people.

[00:31:45] Yeah.

[00:31:45] So, you know, I do think that this, you know, confronting people with respect civilly, providing real facts of what's been observed and making a suggestion on what improvement might look like.

[00:32:03] At the end of the day, that's on that person if they want to take that feedback or not and what they do with it.

[00:32:08] So your point around, it's not illegal, but it's not good at some level.

[00:32:15] Right.

[00:32:16] Again, I'll just go back.

[00:32:17] I think the playbook is still essentially the same, just with different consequences.

[00:32:23] Yeah, Bob, I'm going to end with my take on it.

[00:32:26] I use this term a lot when I'm talking and coaching HR professionals, as opposed to I'm the HR police.

[00:32:33] I'm here, the enforcer.

[00:32:35] I'm this and that.

[00:32:36] Because we oftentimes find ourselves in that position because a lot of stuff does run afoul of the law, the behaviors that we're seeing.

[00:32:43] But I take a different tact and I'd recommend this to our listening audience.

[00:32:48] That of, and it's empathy based, but it's I'm your accountability partner.

[00:32:54] I'm going to help you.

[00:32:56] I mean, and we can take this back to the Matthew Perry situation where the employees like, listen, Matthew, we've got to do something about this.

[00:33:03] I'm here to help you.

[00:33:04] I know what you want.

[00:33:05] You know this isn't good.

[00:33:07] I know it's not good for you or me.

[00:33:08] I could go to jail.

[00:33:10] Looks like it happened.

[00:33:11] You could die.

[00:33:11] Looks like it happened.

[00:33:12] Like all of this, this doesn't end in a good place.

[00:33:15] So why don't I do?

[00:33:16] I know how hard this is for you.

[00:33:19] But I'm going to be your partner in this.

[00:33:21] And I'm going to help you be accountable.

[00:33:23] I've found that in my HR practice as a Fortune 500 HR leader.

[00:33:29] Very helpful when I would run into a person, as you described, the Tim character.

[00:33:35] Hope it's not his real name.

[00:33:36] But the Tim, your client, who just is not even aware of the impact of their behavior and their countenance.

[00:33:46] And so I said, let me be that person that whispers to you.

[00:33:50] Not judges you, not calls your boss on you, but just kind of says, hey, we even come up with a sign.

[00:33:57] Like when I see you in a meeting becoming overly aggressive as opposed to saying, stop it, Tim.

[00:34:03] I give you a wink or something that lets you know I see you and I'm making you aware of what you're doing so that you can course correct.

[00:34:10] This idea of being a coach, which I know you're the expert at, but coaching people from a place of I'm trying to make you better versus enforcing rules and disciplining people might be the secret to solving for some of these issues.

[00:34:27] Yeah.

[00:34:28] So I love it.

[00:34:29] And, you know, to your point, that approach very much hinges on the confidant aspect of that.

[00:34:37] And I love what you said around trust.

[00:34:38] But, you know, that's a step down the road on the being part of the solution.

[00:34:44] And, you know, again, not just sort of standing back and judging, but like I'm willing to walk into the ring with you and help you if this is the help that you would like.

[00:34:54] But what we can't do is force people to change because that's just not how people are wired.

[00:34:59] They don't want to change if they don't want to change.

[00:35:01] Well, see, what I think is.

[00:35:03] So you teach me at the beginning, like I'm going to show this goes to a good place.

[00:35:06] I think it does end up in a good place.

[00:35:09] You landed the plane, my man.

[00:35:11] Yay.

[00:35:11] And nobody nobody got hurt.

[00:35:12] But but just to leave listeners with this idea of, you know, if you see something, say something and be offered to be part of the solution, then it's on the other person what they do with that.

[00:35:30] Right.

[00:35:31] And so but I love what you said about accountability partners.

[00:35:34] I want to just double underscore that because that's such a great, great point.

[00:35:38] But at the end of the day, you have agency.

[00:35:42] Nobody can take that away from you.

[00:35:44] You can't say that you're powerless.

[00:35:46] That's not a true statement.

[00:35:48] It can be a true statement if you give your power away.

[00:35:51] But you can reclaim your power.

[00:35:52] And so, you know, I would just encourage folks because we deal with people and there's no more complicated thing on planet Earth than a human being.

[00:36:01] I have so much respect for HR people is is how to intercede to have influence.

[00:36:11] That's that's the thing is HR people have so much ability to have influence in the workplace and to create the change that, you know, allows them to be the best version of themselves, but everybody else to be the best version of themselves.

[00:36:27] That's power.

[00:36:28] So, Johnny, I want to I would be remiss if I also didn't say thank you to Bonnie Lowe Craman for bringing this to our attention.

[00:36:38] As a listener of this, if you hear something in the news or some topics that you would like to hear us unpack, this episode came directly from a recommendation from Bonnie.

[00:36:49] So, Bonnie, thank you for that.

[00:36:51] And, Johnny, anything else you want to leave us with?

[00:36:53] Or are we ready to put a bow on it?

[00:36:54] Let's put a bow on it, my friend.

[00:36:56] Awesome.

[00:36:56] Okay.

[00:36:56] So, everyone, thank you so much for taking just a few minutes out of your day to listen.

[00:37:00] If you think a podcast like this would be helpful or instructive for a friend of yours, please feel free to share it.

[00:37:07] Ratings and reviews always help.

[00:37:09] So, but with that, I just want to say thank you for investing a few minutes.

[00:37:13] And, Johnny, thank you.

[00:37:14] It's a pleasure as always.

[00:37:15] Always.

[00:37:16] There you go.

[00:37:17] Workwire, come on.

[00:37:19] Thanks.

[00:37:20] We'll see you all in the next episode.

[00:37:21] See you soon.

[00:37:22] Check out Career.Club for personalized help with your job search.

[00:37:26] Visit SHRM.org to become part of the largest human resources organization worldwide.