Psychedelics - The Work Wire

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[00:00:31] Hey everybody, this is Bob Goodwin, president of Career Club joined by my good friend, the president CEO of Shirm, Johnny C. Taylor, Jr. Johnny, how are you sir? Doing well, Bob, it's always good to see you. Dude, we're going to take a trip today.

[00:00:46] I'm not taking you on a long strange trip here for the next few minutes. We're going to be talking about something that's been in the news here recently. There is mine blowing, if you will.

[00:00:59] And it is a trend that we're seeing with executives, particularly in the tech space, but not limited of the use of psychedelics. So ketamine, psilocybin, mesh mushrooms, pretty heavy duty drugs, microdosing, but where there are kind of the anecdotal claims that by taking these drugs,

[00:01:25] it helps some focus, it is creating greater creativity and is allowing them to be more empathetic and open with their colleagues. I'm just reading what they say.

[00:01:38] And maybe I'm too old, but I'm struggling with this in a little bit, but I'm just curious when you see this kind of stuff in the news. What's your first reaction to that?

[00:01:52] So my first reaction is we probably will both date each other, but even the age not was standing, it concerns me. It really does concern me in part because I think America in particular and probably globally, but I know in America,

[00:02:09] we know that we have a drug overuse problem. Even for prescribed medication, there's all sorts of debates about what we are doing long term to our bodies with those things that are given to us by actual physicians and pursuant to regularly.

[00:02:28] You know, you've seen all of the studies, I'm sure that speak to how we're changing our brains when we give our children medications to treat ADD and other types of problems. So we generally have an over subscription problem.

[00:02:43] And so this layers onto it with what I'm concerned about is not we don't know enough about the long term impacts of these psychedelic drugs on users and many of them are self-prescribing, right?

[00:03:01] Which is even scarier. They don't, you know, these are people who might be brilliant coders and algorithm designers and everything, but at the end of the day they're not physicians and don't understand how these things could impact their body long-tend of brains.

[00:03:17] Well, and I'll agree with you in later on. Yes, there's a long term effect, but there's a short term effect. Right, I mean, you've got people who are entrepreneurs whether they're betting their own money, somebody else's money like venture capitalists who might be investing in their company.

[00:03:39] They're employees where it's sort of like it's the newest fad for like a live hack of how I go find this big unlock in my business, right?

[00:03:53] And to your point, I'm going to look at you. You may have really interesting point about just sort of generally this over a lion's on drugs, right?

[00:04:01] Because it feels like an easy fix or at least a band aid on top of not really and this is why I hope we can explore a little bit important on this episode is why are people feeling the need to take these drugs.

[00:04:20] Or, it's a bit of a drug or wasn't Peter Drucker, right? I mean, he figured out how to run a business that her, you know, we're all excited these days about artificial intelligence. These guys are going to acid intelligence, right?

[00:04:35] And so done with my work play, but it's so you've done a nice job at that today, right? My ad live lines are well rehearsed. But seriously, it's like I feel like I can be more empathetic.

[00:04:52] I feel like I can be more creative. Well, are you not feeling empathetic? Like why do you not feel empathetic to begin with? And maybe there's a root cause to that or go ahead, no, or or on the the creativity or it frees my mind kinds of things.

[00:05:11] I think if the risk of cutting to a chase you're just a little bit is there's just I think some fundamental self doubt that people are dealing with that these drugs that kind of loosen your inhibitions a little bit

[00:05:29] So now them to kind of move past some some again what I think are self doubt imposter syndrome whatever it might be kind of the issues.

[00:05:39] In the same way that hey, let's go have a couple more tenies and like I'm a lot looser than I was, you know, 45 minutes ago, it's a certain person at run over in the car getting home with the life or spouse that I go by

[00:05:54] I want an advocate, and this was in some of the news reports. I'm advocating since I'm getting some benefit from this year. John, you should do this too. And then I'll send people are having literally bad trips and like it's creating trauma in their life

[00:06:10] because they're being encouraged to take drugs for some, as you said, kind of non-documented benefit. What, and here's the deal, even if you were to be able to document the benefits. Let's, as we in the law would say, assuming argumental that it's right.

[00:06:30] Let's just say we can actually demonstrate proof out that they're benefits. The same argument could be made for allowing athletes to use steroids. It makes you stronger. You properly, that's why they got in performance and hand-sing drugs, but we don't allow people to do it.

[00:06:50] So the ends don't always justify the means. That's the way I think about this. You could make the case all day that certain performance enhancing drugs, IE steroids, will make it athlete faster, stronger would have you, but we don't allow it. We've actually made it illegal.

[00:07:09] So I don't really, I'm not moved by data and it's week data, by the way, short term data that says person A is better, they're more empathetic, they work longer, they do whatever, to your point that's not okay. So we really have to as the society decide

[00:07:30] what behaviors, what methods for achieving performance is okay. What do you say to that? No, I agree with that. I mean, one could argue that in athletics, I mean, if I am taking steroids and it definitely has a physiological, like I am bigger, stronger, faster

[00:07:51] because I'm getting this stuff. I'm not sure I am smarter, whatever, whatever, whatever, on these drugs, but to your point, assuming that that's even true, I just really get back to why. Why do you feel the need to take these is there a deeper,

[00:08:11] more root cause thing that needs to be addressed because it's scary to think that our company culture as we have found that when we micro dose psychedelic of drugs, we all do better. So come to the, come take drugs with us.

[00:08:31] Well I've also found, again, I'm picking on this not because I do it, but just because if you said it this way, but yeah, that's not gonna happen. It's like I have two big drinks at lunch because I find that a much more creative after lunch,

[00:08:46] it allows me to socialize better with my colleagues and I can focus. Johnny, is it okay if I come to Sherman, I have a couple of martinis and lunch and then come back to your meetings? Is that cool about you? No, it's not.

[00:09:01] And so this is a slippery slope and we actually have it's really a broader conversation about big sea culture and what are society? Where our society is willing to go in the name of performance? Be it physical performance, be it business performance, be it?

[00:09:20] You know generally, and that's why I drew the example of and tried to make the analogy I should call it analog to sports enhancing drugs. If it's all about winning, if it's all about ends just to find the means, we can justify anything.

[00:09:39] You actually could justify a ton of things that go beyond just psychedelics but get into real what we all, I think 100% agree or bad, draw it, it's right? But in the name of performance, so there's a conversation if winning by any means is a good thing.

[00:09:57] For society, I was meant to bet it's not. For a couple of reasons, one, there's real, if we talk about merit as we talk a lot and then merit suggested everyone's sort of playing by the same, you know, saying, playing on the same level and level playing field

[00:10:15] as the phrase, I'm not as good today as you are. No, no, no, no, no, but it does. And so if some people have access to it and others don't, then is that a fair? Is that truly meritocracy at one? That's one.

[00:10:30] Number two is different people handle these things differently. If your body can't metabolize it, so my boss does it and performs really well. So I now model that behavior. What if my, what if I don't respond well to that? And now you've got real consequences downstream consequences,

[00:10:48] to your employee populations. So I just, I think again, we don't know enough about it and you made a really good point. Not only do we not know a lot about it long term, we're not been sure we know a lot about it short term.

[00:10:58] John, you used to have on some public boards, right? So let's just pretend that one of the companies that you're on the board and the CEO comes in and says, to a board meeting, oh my gosh, I took some ketamine over the weekend

[00:11:14] and I have this blinding insight on our business. Yes, and I really think that we've got it wrong and I think the right thing that we should do is basically blow up the strategy and go do this with style onto the lawyer in you for a minute.

[00:11:31] Like the public reputation. So now the CEO's quoted in the Wall Street Journal, ketamine, like oh my gosh, just like opened up my mind and that's why we're gonna just completely throw the rudder over the other way. The shareholder risk, they're like,

[00:11:49] wait a minute, this person's on drugs, making these kinds of decisions and the boards cool with this and this is what we're doing. Like would there be legal ramifications if a public company CEO went on record saying, I'm dropping acid, making business decisions

[00:12:06] and shepherding the business in light of that? So one, I don't know the actual legal answer to it. But what I can say to you is maybe, maybe not but more importantly, even if they're worked which is what I'm, you and I actually trying to get to

[00:12:24] would that be okay? Cause actually what prompted this discussion is an article in the Wall Street Journal where a lot of companies are aware that they're CEO sadly in my opinion and I think yours. They are CEO's who are now openly acknowledging that they are doing that.

[00:12:43] And the boards know it. Now, I think there's those boards obviously have some risk if said CEO, if I say that I'm doing this, I leave a board meeting and therefore get a car accident or do something to hurt someone, I go sexually harassed and employed

[00:13:01] because my inhibitions have now. Like I can see, kind of not playing the lower air, I don't wanna do that on TV but but I do, I can see they're being a very good case for it. Not unlike if you had an, here's I'm a board member

[00:13:17] and I know that my CEO drinks to the point of intoxication and does so in his office and we are all aware of that but the results are great so we allow him or her to do it and then on their lunch break

[00:13:31] driving back from a lunch where they've had two or three drinks that they run over someone. Yes, we would have liability. Not only will he or she, the CEO have liability but I can only imagine any good lawyer is gonna try to drag the company into it

[00:13:46] because you know and you benefited from it if your argument goes when he or she was drunk they did well or there were moods were altered. So I could see a very interestingly galargimate. Now again, I'm not here to tenderly go at vice or off of

[00:14:02] what I can tell you is that's CF but I wanna go bigger than that is this the kind of society, it's just a kind of culture we want people to work in because I worry that if that's okay then what's next? It's that slippery slope argument

[00:14:17] and I don't see how this ends up in a good place but particularly for things that are moving, changing people's who they are in terms of how they show up to work. You acknowledge, I made more empathetic person when I do this and it just doesn't feel right.

[00:14:35] Here's something else that I think we need to focus on for and we've seen I'm still shocked at how we, where we've ended up with marijuana in our system. I was like, you know I was gonna go there a few days and we're not even old people

[00:14:49] so I'm not a funny daddy but how we've sort of loosened it so I'm riding in the car the other day and I ride up a car drives up next to me and my daughter ran the car and I windows open because it's a beautiful spring day

[00:15:03] and just you could just smell it. I mean from the car next door and I looked at my daughter and I said, that's horrible and she said, it is legal now dad and I said, well sweetheart, the law says you can use it.

[00:15:18] The law's there's also another law that says you can't drive while under the influence of anything. Physician, prescribed medication, illicit drugs, you can't. There's nothing that allows you to drive a car and put other people at risk in the name of it's now legal

[00:15:39] but that whole conversation made me realize that we have moved the goal post such that first it was marijuana. At first it was no you don't do it then it was from medicinal purposes then everything became medicinal and we are just moving to the point where it seems

[00:15:57] to be okay to do whatever you want to do whenever you as long as the result is you feel good and your point which you raised at the outset is I think a really interesting one. And that is there's some really under some significant

[00:16:12] underlying personal mental and emotional issues that need to be addressed and just covering them up with drugs does it solve for the issue at the core of this? Yeah and so just building on your point about this normalization, you're not used right?

[00:16:34] And again, not trying to be a funny daddy and people who my history would be stunned but you mentioned one thing too like it started off medicinal and I wanted to touch on that for a second because somebody's gonna be listening to this

[00:16:48] and going yeah but there are some people who are prescribed these things and are for psychological issues right and it is being administered in a medicinal capacity okay but that's pretty much not what we're talking about. Right? That's it this is the I just feel better

[00:17:12] and I want to do it into your very awful label if you will utilization of these kinds of drugs and it's called them those drugs and so yeah I completely agree with you that if you just keep lowering the bar

[00:17:29] then anything's okay but not even making a value judgment on that I do agree with you with culture with the big sea and I'm not trying to ignore that I really do get though it fundamentally as a business person, as an executive, as a leader at your company,

[00:17:50] what's going on that you feel the need? I think I wrote some notes as we've thinking about this call is did Leonardo Da Vinci drop acid before he did Thomas Edison need acid to be able to you'll have however many inventions and patents and discoveries

[00:18:12] that he did or let's say it but for just a second play that out suppose he did what would you say with that change anything because I worry that we don't know you know we didn't have the internet we don't have proof of

[00:18:29] we do know some real there are at least historical historians who say certain of our musical geniuses used drugs and what were what would have been the psychedelics of the day mushrooms marijuana, health and C.P. and we've heard it all

[00:18:48] but I want to I think I'm sorry to pause here but wouldn't matter if they did well maybe and I'm not gonna dodge the question but what I am going to say is that's a hypothetical dealing with what we do know to be true

[00:19:05] that's not the case right and so I don't want to get actually sucked into a hypothetical vortex when the reality is to the best of our knowledge you know all these great minds didn't need that they were able to do their geniuses

[00:19:21] in your right you know with like the psychedelic era and then we also sort of see the carnage of Janice Aron and Jimi Hendrix and Jim Morrison and you know that's a long list or an Eric Clapton who's like like I almost destroyed my life doing this

[00:19:37] I'm not sure there's a lot of people who at the end of that all of that go yay that was awesome really glad I did that they're like I'm glad I didn't die doing that and so you're right I mean when it's like you know shooting heroin

[00:19:51] going to be the next thing that you know somebody feels like they really need to cope and they really need to be if they're competitive best or creative best or empathetic best it's very very scary to think that companies are being run by people who feel the need

[00:20:13] to be on very strong drugs to be at their best and you talked about you know unfair competitive advantages in meritocracy and stuff and what I thought about while you were saying that was well yeah but you know you went to Miami

[00:20:30] I went to Tennessee she went to Wharton you know you went to Harvard Business School that's unfair advantage right you know but one could argue is a superior education maybe not but but this whole thing with drugs

[00:20:46] I just gotta keep coming back to why are you doing this fundamentally why do you feel inadequate in a sober state to perform at your best? well so that's what you're getting at and let we circle back to that because

[00:21:05] and it's why I post the question doesn't matter fundamentally we know that we have a serious mental health yes problem in our country and if our response to it as we know and every is simply to medicate it then we're not getting to the underlying

[00:21:26] and that's exactly what now we talk about all of the GLP one or what are those that class of drugs the obesity drugs are one thing that we know for sure is if you simply want to give people the medication and not change their lifestyle

[00:21:39] you're not solving for anything you've got to figure out what is going on here emotionally physically et cetera and then help solve for that so ultimately the goal is to win you off of the drugs not to keep you now for chronic conditions to your point

[00:21:55] the doctor prescribes these psychedelics or other drugs to solve for a serious problem that you're having a physical or mental health crisis got there are people who are mentally ill to the point that they need drugs prescribed by physician but even those things

[00:22:14] over time have consequences they want their kidneys they you know just talking to someone the other day who said their mother I guess a mother who had used that can't remove the name of the drug but some sort of mood often judge because this person was bipolar

[00:22:30] got it but now you know fast forward fifty five years old a person's kidney has gone so you know we now imagine if we could now maybe you needed to maybe the doctor was right if we're going to get through

[00:22:43] this this person needs to take this medication and the downside is they want a kidney at fifty five more of the workplace that are they'll die got it but you don't need to do that in

[00:22:52] name of winning the race in tech I mean shame on you if that's so we need to as an HR profession I think can go back to my big seat as we've got to figure out do our people have the resources

[00:23:06] they do to become your word and I'd love you to talk about this resilient yes that's what this is about if your response is I'm going to introduce this artificial agent this drug thing to help me get back in the game and be my best self that's problematic

[00:23:23] that's a resiliency problem and many more debate I think it's right in our country we've a resiliency problem and it's not just that off of generation or generations the across the board we're seeing full grown adults not being able to get back in the

[00:23:40] game after they've been disappointed after they've lost after whatever they then resort to things like this so I know you're big right now who resilience in fact I know that you're going to be talking to Sherman chapters around the country thank you for agreeing to do

[00:23:55] that about resiliency and how people learn to deal with the normal mental stressors of life yeah so thank you for Tina out, Johnny because this is on the fly side road you appreciate you doing that is the the the the core thing

[00:24:12] in resilient is changes going to happen and I think what we see in society in in business is the pace and magnitude of change is only increasing the way I like to say is today is the slowest

[00:24:25] day for the rest of your life it's just going to get a faster and faster and faster and so it's the ability it really really comes down to your self identity and intrinsic values who am I as a human being

[00:24:41] I can face challenges I've got courage I've got empathy like I know who I am and I draw on that I know who's in my community to support me and how to draw on them for different and I've got to

[00:24:55] try different people sort of different functions in that when I see unwanted change how do I go find the purpose in it? I may not have liked this change is happening but how can I go benefit find

[00:25:08] in the midst of that right and then become creative and innovative to work around through capitalized even on this this change has happened we see this all the time it career club where someone's been laid off

[00:25:24] and I like somebody pressed the pause button in my career I didn't choose that but you know what that's allowed me to go spend more time with my ageing parents

[00:25:33] that's allowed me to rethink what do I really want to do I just sort of in the rap race of life in somebody who took me off of it for a while and they make a life change

[00:25:43] but the thing in my I'm so big on resilience is it's not just a business strategy it is a life skill right that is going to prevent you know higher levels of burnout disengagement, attrition and just basically as people when we see this all the time

[00:26:03] it's a developer resilience it actually injection joy that never did our life and you know if they're risking getting philosophical for just a second joy is irrespective of circumstances happiness is circumstance I just want the lottery I'm happy

[00:26:19] boy is something not greatest happened but I've got an optimistic a sense of agency right and I think that's a big piece of what people lose when they're taking drugs like this is there a sense of agency they're actually handing their the control over to a drug

[00:26:37] because I can't do this myself I'm going to take a mood all-trained so I don't I'm not actually dealing with the feeling I'm just kind of numbing the feeling out for a little bit or somehow

[00:26:49] morphine it chemically in my brain instead of actually having a strategy for how to not just survive but thrive through challenging circumstances so well I've used get something that I did struck me all

[00:27:05] of us are in some ways in pursuit of joy and I love the distinction that you made between joy and happiness right that I did this when you said it joy is just it's in you like that's

[00:27:16] a happiness is fleeting and to your point I'm happy to not be happy tomorrow I held in happy happy five years after intervening cause gets in but joy peace all of that got it

[00:27:26] what if I said to you and I'm being dove of it very not I am in pursuit of that joy miss I'm gonna see you when I'm pursue of it so pursuit of it and I get it from the psychedelics

[00:27:42] like I'm actually generally happy life school I made a lot of money I'm a you know a taxi earpick money I have influenced I might be famous in my own little world but what I really want

[00:27:53] is that I'm pursuing and I've been unable to get it because I have all the trappings the money the title so I for art and what I have at all I'm still not filled with joy so I'm actually

[00:28:06] this is my 20 minutes a day where actually enjoy filled how do you react it's called an addiction oh don't hold back on the judge man Bob okay I have it but I'm serious not it's not being clinical

[00:28:24] that's called an admission and in it's said but again that is an intrinsic actor in your life and what I'm talking about is intrinsic it is it's irrespective of what's going on around you

[00:28:42] or in this case in you and the ability to have as you say joy, peace, fulfillment that's not created for you because of a drug it's generated out of you based on again a very healthy self-identity

[00:29:02] now I think that's right and so as we get it to us I think the real the biggest takeaway from me as I step all the way back is I think this is more of an indictment or indication of the

[00:29:21] where we are from a mental wellness and mental health standpoint in very much that's what this and yes resilience is a part of it and it's a big part of it because we can help people life has

[00:29:34] good days and bad days like you have to be able to bounce back from them and ideally without the help of a psychedelic but I do think that what I'm excited about is we are finally having these

[00:29:45] conversations so when I read the Wall Street Journal articles and other articles uh, extolting the virtues of this I said there's a message in there that we've got to help people manage their mental wellness much better so we we have the answer I don't know if the

[00:30:01] answers but we are much better at managing physical problems the way that we've now addressed this is on and and we're starting to have conversations in workplace this around the importance

[00:30:12] of mental well being so that to me you know I'm an optimist right and so part of me says the fact that these CEOs are openly talking about this sure they may say they're getting better results

[00:30:25] but even the fact that a CEO says this makes me more empathetic speaks volumes because we're coming in the past CEOs they scoffed at the term empathy and sympathy for Serpy HR at least they're understanding that this state the in-state of being a better

[00:30:47] manager and a better leader is something I think is important there's a value that's an aspirational quality right and the fact that I don't I'm getting near the wrong way is it's a whole different

[00:31:02] conversation but I actually saw in that wow at least they know I am not a great manager I want to be the way that I'm gonna get there is this thing but at least I'm aware of how I can be a better

[00:31:15] leader yeah and that's that's I mean that that's pretty hardcore optimist so I applaud you for that but the back of just one mental wellness because that's a topic that you know are highly

[00:31:28] highly aligned on you know it's human resources these are real people these aren't cells on a spreadsheet right and so when when we can start to help people uncover within themselves how to find fulfillment purpose satisfaction in their work and more broadly in their life then that is

[00:31:55] back to your culture with a giant sea that is a huge good that we're doing for culture at large and so you're being part of that again I think this is just symptomatic

[00:32:08] of broader issues but I do you know like your insight that the fact that that's even an aspirational goal and I do understand in awareness of like I should probably be more empathetic

[00:32:22] is a good thing but if it's drawn to the way to get there I'm not 100% convinced I'm not just yet anything else I've done before we we wrap this one up yeah to brought up this is an

[00:32:32] odd topic when you you know we both kind of collaborate on what we're gonna talk about in the use sense I said we're going to go with this because but the fact that a serious arguably one of

[00:32:42] the most serious business journals in the world the Wall Street Journal at this talking about this means this is not just Johnny and Bob have run out of content right this is a real conversation

[00:32:57] and I hope those who are listening understand why we're talking about it at the end of the day whether you agree a disagree because the temptation is people will be hit sitting in

[00:33:07] in their worlds right now listening to this and debating whether it's really not about that I think you hit the real issue we've got to get to a point where people can find joy and hopefully do so

[00:33:18] without these sorts of artificial agents because we don't know the long-term consequences of it I say and it's also a bigger statement about our culture so I live on culture you're saying guys we we got some other problems here people's mental well being is that issue both

[00:33:36] of a sland at the right place I think for that reason that's all so no one out here should they debate with us about whether because if you want to use psychedelic it's not I mean

[00:33:45] another was can control that but I do think it's a fair conversation that HR practitioners need to take up awesome cool but Johnny again you know we we kind of go where people tend to not go thank

[00:33:59] you Wall Street Journal for helping us see you kind of this is a broader issue than maybe people might think and you know for our listeners and viewers thank you very much we really value an honor the time

[00:34:10] to invest with us every week here on the workwire and Johnny C Taylor Jr. I just get joy out of being in your presence thank you and I'm very fulfilled by our time to get a man awesome well

[00:34:23] thank you very much enjoy the rest of your week listeners viewers enjoy the rest of your day and thank you again and we look forward to seeing you in the next episode of the workmark check out

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