Overwork Consequences - The Work Wire

[00:00:01] Hey everybody, this is Bob Goodwin and welcome to another episode of The Work Wire where I'm

[00:00:07] joined by my co-host and good friend Johnny C. Taylor Jr., the President C.O. of Sherman

[00:00:12] Johnny, how are you today?

[00:00:14] I'm going to really good move.

[00:00:16] What's your favorite word?

[00:00:18] What's your favorite word?

[00:00:18] Put your favorite word to me today.

[00:00:20] I don't know, you know, you know when you're having a bad mood and you know, likewise

[00:00:24] when you have a good, normally I know why I'm in a bad mood.

[00:00:26] Today I'm just not in a bad mood, I'm not in a good mood.

[00:00:29] So that's what you did, throw it.

[00:00:32] You know, it's a Friday, you're a more an optimist, I think.

[00:00:35] That's right.

[00:00:36] That's how you drinking coffee so if we put all that together in your coffee.

[00:00:38] That's right, mix all of it.

[00:00:41] So what I thought would be a really interesting topic there.

[00:00:45] We saw an article this week in the Wall Street Journal with Bank of America and their

[00:00:52] junior bankers and I'm going to read some excerpts from this in a second but you know,

[00:00:58] examples of where junior bankers are just being pushed to the absolute limit they're

[00:01:03] working hundred out of weeks.

[00:01:05] You know, and like I said, I guess I'll get to some specifics.

[00:01:09] It kind of culminated in May with an employee actually dying.

[00:01:14] And so yeah, I thought it would be really helpful to kind of unpack this.

[00:01:19] You know, again, a few ways.

[00:01:21] I mean, one is that human and ethical costs, there's the business risk and then it's

[00:01:26] sort of the cultural and social implications.

[00:01:28] I'm sure you've got other places that we can go with this.

[00:01:31] But yeah, with that, let me just read just a little bit.

[00:01:34] So listeners can kind of get grounded into your why this is fairly shocking.

[00:01:39] So one young lady thrilled to accept a job from B.V.

[00:01:41] Well, she's a student at Smith College in Ray Leets School.

[00:01:45] She quit B.V.

[00:01:46] And 22 after three years in the Chicago office, we're senior bankers kept her in her

[00:01:50] teammates if they're destined to 5 a.m., instructed them.

[00:01:54] This is really the important part.

[00:01:55] Toli about their hours once he said she worked until 4 a.m. in the office was on her way home

[00:02:01] in the taxi only for a boss request, more changes for a proposal to a client and leave

[00:02:06] a printed copy for the staff later to read that morning.

[00:02:09] So you just turned around with that work.

[00:02:11] Roy Lang worked as a junior investment banker for the bank and Tokyo meticulously logged

[00:02:15] his overtime hours.

[00:02:17] But when human resources told his boss to see was working too much, the manager told him

[00:02:21] just to report only as many of his was allowed and just forget the rest.

[00:02:27] And he ended up leaving after his doctor flagged high cholesterol and other indicators

[00:02:32] that he was getting truly unhealthy.

[00:02:35] An analyst on the Latin American finance team in New York, class, so I asked you have

[00:02:38] to work along a harsh prompting colleagues to climb ambulance to the office and then lastly

[00:02:44] this associate that it been putting in over 100 hours to finish a $2 billion acquisition

[00:02:50] by the way that they didn't get in this gentleman died wife children.

[00:02:56] So I mean, it's so extreme.

[00:02:59] It sounds like we're talking about a Netflix.

[00:03:00] It does.

[00:03:01] Tell or something but this is happening in real time in corporate America.

[00:03:08] What do you think?

[00:03:10] Okay, so I'm going to naturally say those are horrible examples.

[00:03:16] I mean, no one can start in any other place that you we've used the phrase work yourself

[00:03:23] to death.

[00:03:23] I don't think we were literally meant that.

[00:03:27] But here we are and so I start from the standpoint of it's not even, it's not only

[00:03:34] is it not good for the individual and their family and people who rely on them, etc.

[00:03:40] But it's not good for the business because if someone is that good they're not machine

[00:03:45] to burn them out.

[00:03:47] And people if I have a star, just think about what we do in athletics and you're the person

[00:03:54] who explained it this to me if you remember.

[00:03:57] You know, after an athlete, a very high level athlete and I would consider bankers who

[00:04:03] operating on $2 billion deals to be that.

[00:04:06] That they have a built-in period to what's the term you use?

[00:04:11] Well, I mean, with muscles it's try trophy.

[00:04:16] It gets torn but it recovers.

[00:04:18] That's right.

[00:04:19] You need that recovery period.

[00:04:20] That's right.

[00:04:21] That recovery period is essential.

[00:04:23] And your discovery situation where someone worked until 5 a.m.

[00:04:27] and then literally within an hour of recess to come back every once in a while you can do

[00:04:31] that.

[00:04:31] I'm going to make sure that's the part of me that I want to make sure there are periods.

[00:04:36] All of us have had to do overnighters.

[00:04:38] All of us have had to have periods where you work, you know, 100 hours in a week because

[00:04:44] there's some really important work to be done or familiar responsibilities.

[00:04:49] When I have a mother who's sick and I have to work and then so I leave working do I'm the

[00:04:55] son who has to rotate this week is my week to take care of mom overnight in the hospital.

[00:05:00] Like life does happen.

[00:05:02] So, you know, it's why you and I don't use term work like balance because you're not always

[00:05:07] in balance.

[00:05:08] But we have this goes on for sustained period is the problem and I want to make sure that

[00:05:14] the listeners here know that this is not a situation where someone says, well, you know,

[00:05:19] I stop at 45 hours every week because that's healthy.

[00:05:23] I don't, I think that also is an over-correction the other way because you want to figure

[00:05:29] out how to integrate work and life.

[00:05:31] Companies are increasing pressure to produce good financial results, strong financial results.

[00:05:39] And something that you know I talk about a lot is the pressure that we get from employees

[00:05:44] along way to inflation.

[00:05:47] You want to make a lot of money and I've got to get enough productivity out of you for me to

[00:05:53] make a profit and to pay you a lot of money.

[00:05:55] And so some of this is out of kilter not.

[00:05:58] I want to make sure no one hears me saying, therefore, Johnny said it's okay to burn people

[00:06:03] out to make more money.

[00:06:04] I'm not saying that.

[00:06:06] I am saying though as an out just give you my own personal story, I started at a major

[00:06:11] law firm.

[00:06:12] Some lawyer by training before I became HR and I knew that they were going to pay me and

[00:06:18] in saying amount of money as a 23 year old lawyer who knew nothing.

[00:06:22] I just freshly meant that law degree, I know specialty but I went to a big law firm.

[00:06:29] They paid me a lot of money but I knew coming in the door that I've got to build 2000 hours a year.

[00:06:36] Bill now what does student math?

[00:06:39] In 50 weeks so with the two-week vacation those remaining 50 weeks I had to build 40 hours a week.

[00:06:47] That means if you know anything about billing you're going to work 50 to 60 hours to actually net

[00:06:53] bill a hours because you're not billing every moment that you're not because you stop

[00:06:57] to have lunch and talk to friends that are not or there's time when there's no work.

[00:07:01] So you're there but you can't bill it to anyone.

[00:07:03] So I signed up for that bottom.

[00:07:05] I knew it.

[00:07:06] Those of us who finished law school or medical school or professional school,

[00:07:10] she got a lot of debt and you decide I'm going to do this hard intense work for longer hours

[00:07:19] and some of my contemporaries but I'm going to be paid a lot of money to pay down my debt or

[00:07:23] set up my next egg or what that said.

[00:07:26] Whatever it is so I do think there's some personal responsibility here too as we're

[00:07:30] am landing on this like no one's going to work in the hundred hours a week consistently.

[00:07:35] There's a point at what I'm going to say I got to work somewhere else.

[00:07:40] No.

[00:07:40] So I'm glad you brought up your story because I was going to bring it up if you didn't

[00:07:45] know seriously. I mean you've worked your tail off, your entire career you have a capacity for

[00:07:51] work that a lot of people don't, right? But you know that and you've said if this is this is

[00:07:57] what I want to do and I want to be compensated for fair amount of the thing and whether we're talking

[00:08:04] because I just trying to think like what are they are the use cases because this is pretty

[00:08:08] true. I don't know medical residences that's pretty horrible for sure and that's real.

[00:08:13] I'm not 100% and then you've got you know like my wife was in a counter like in what they're doing

[00:08:18] some audit and they're billable hours the same thing I've taken about consulting firms like

[00:08:23] in McKinsey was in the news not too often long ago and it wasn't completely complementary on

[00:08:29] what the experience is like for junior associate but these are kids coming from the best schools

[00:08:34] in the world. Your point maybe with more than a little bit of debt and or starts in their

[00:08:40] eyes on how much money they're going to make and you get that McKinsey goldman bevay whatever

[00:08:48] Penigree is actually and and I think everybody knows that that that's coming at price.

[00:08:55] The issue for me and I'd love to hear you talk about this is where it goes really, really sideways

[00:09:02] is the line about it. Yes. He's not policies in place right so like we know and I think

[00:09:13] the evasive is like 80 so it wasn't like you know it was 55 it was 80 hours and these people are

[00:09:20] blowing past that by Tuesday could you do that no take more days than that but you know it's like whoa

[00:09:28] whoa whoa like that that's not only said not ethical right I'm curious if it's legal and I

[00:09:37] know this isn't legal shown I never want to put you on the spot with offering the legal opinion.

[00:09:42] Well so so let's start in the ethical side there we you start with these are human beings

[00:09:48] and that that's the problem is you talking about the the loss of humanity

[00:09:55] yeah that's what it is the idea that an organization would even ask put peer pressure

[00:10:01] on someone to work that many of the hours for a sustained period of time to the detriment of their

[00:10:07] own personal health is a problem and we as people managers have an obligation to be

[00:10:12] shepherds of our people right so I know when I pushed someone too hard they manifested this person

[00:10:18] didn't just pass out at work there were indications that's number one then the ethical

[00:10:23] question of suggesting that someone lie about the number of hours worked yeah there's also a

[00:10:29] legal problem we've known companies that didn't want to pay overtime so wasn't that the work

[00:10:34] working you for 60 hours it's I didn't want to pay you for the two hours over 40 that you work

[00:10:40] under the Fair Labor Standards Act it is illegal to lie about the number of hours you work

[00:10:46] and it's unethical to lie about anything related to work frankly right so you have both the legal

[00:10:51] and an ethics problem and I know some of you out there who are really trained in Fair Labor

[00:10:56] Standards Act say yeah these an exempt employee though I'm saying documenting anything and changing it

[00:11:03] from what it is has to violate some law right just not mine so so I think we we are it's it's a

[00:11:12] troubling problem if this were one off a one off incident it wouldn't be okay but we could

[00:11:20] understand it because there's always an organization be a bay may have two 300 thousand employees thinking

[00:11:26] that the senior team there is fully aware of what's happening in everyone of their offices around

[00:11:31] the world this is just corporate America right it's you mentioned someone's in London somewhere

[00:11:36] right that's really tough but what what concerns me and I'm sure I know the management team

[00:11:43] America CHRO their CEO I was just an immediate with their CEO at on the on a call with CHRO

[00:11:51] that's not their culture so what they have to do is deal with the specific situation and we

[00:11:57] don't know the details of it so it's unfair for us to really know the details of it but I will say this

[00:12:02] and I am confident that be a bay has said that's not okay by us so then you've got to go back

[00:12:08] and remind the organization what are the rules what's our culture what behaviors are this is not

[00:12:15] how we work you're not talking about the definition of culture how things get done around this

[00:12:19] this isn't how we get them done and you've got to reinforce it the messaging of it and you

[00:12:24] got to hold people accountable who allow this so in the case of the people manager who

[00:12:30] encourage someone not to reflect their real time there have to be real consequences to that like

[00:12:35] that's a terrible offense in my mind again I don't know all of the details of the particular

[00:12:41] situation so it's really unfair for us to say maybe there's version of the story that says the

[00:12:46] person was told to do it the people manager may say absolutely wasn't the case I have proof that I

[00:12:51] encourage them to go home with this person and I've seen this in my law from context you have some

[00:12:57] people who are so type a so driven so competitive that even when you encourage those people take

[00:13:04] time off they won't that just right if you can't get ahead if I don't right which you could argue

[00:13:11] it was a bigger cultural issue but you know again I'm real being on personal accountability as well

[00:13:17] right and that's something that I think I just don't know enough about the facts here but if it's

[00:13:22] true let's say it this way if you assume the facts has they've been reported that a manager or

[00:13:29] told repeatedly throughout this culture that it was okay you have an in-run moment where people just

[00:13:35] are violating ethics right that's a problem yeah so so it's interesting talking about culture and

[00:13:43] in you know my last corporate job I let our Wall Street business so working with P firms by side

[00:13:49] side hedge funds all those folks in central Manhattan like that that is a hard core there's

[00:13:59] so much money on the table it's so much money on the table and you know missing that two billion

[00:14:05] dollar deal cost somebody a bunch of money that's right potentially cost somebody their job that's right

[00:14:13] so so culture there's a couple things I want to get up because if if and I'm not taking on

[00:14:21] BFA this is because Goldman like I said has been in the news right this news he's been in

[00:14:25] the news for stuff like this so it's not just limited to bank America if I'm the the guy or the

[00:14:32] gal leading the investment bank yes part of their business where all this is supposedly happening

[00:14:37] is all right then I need more people if you're telling me that I can't run the horses that I've

[00:14:44] got as far as I've been working them then I need more people because because the work still has to

[00:14:50] get done it's gotta get done because this is a very deadline oriented business and I knew

[00:14:56] you're reading your facial expression yes no maybe maybe maybe the answer is throw more bodies

[00:15:04] or maybe it's it's a piece of work if I'm writing a brief in a lot for having 10 people writing on

[00:15:11] the brief doesn't get the brief done quicker I mean you need one person who's very focused and

[00:15:17] it's a subject matter expert so sometimes it's not as simple as adding resources you know and

[00:15:25] especially if you have three of those at one time it is a workload issue and this is where you

[00:15:30] raise point I won't take a lot of time on it but there are times when banks financial services

[00:15:35] law firms etc have to walk away from business so it's just we can't take any more because we

[00:15:42] can't run these horses any and I'm using horses in the sense of a race any harder and maybe that's

[00:15:49] it so that's a bigger conversation is we are there's there's more food in our mouths than we can

[00:15:55] let's go right and that's really a different discussion how much is enough for the enterprise

[00:16:04] and that so it may be that's my point it could be as simple as higher 10 more associates

[00:16:10] it could also be more complicated which is there only five people who know this industry

[00:16:16] and could do this deal that are available right now the deal came in the door because some

[00:16:21] hostile take over was the threat and we had to do this on a dime and you can't just produce

[00:16:26] highly experienced investment banker you melt right that's not so it could be a try with you

[00:16:34] and we both try to do this for the audience especially for the HR profession sometimes it can

[00:16:39] be pretty judgmental sometimes we can not totally understand the nuance of big business and specific

[00:16:45] industries it could be that they're limited number of people this particular person could be the

[00:16:50] specialist in this area and we just work through too hard and that's bad for him and it's bad for

[00:16:56] us because you're right one of the points that you brought up when I said you maybe it's just

[00:17:01] we need more bodies you said yeah but it could be process right I think that that's interesting

[00:17:07] that the that culture though yeah they're saying um i hope i can characterize this properly

[00:17:15] but this it's it's almost like a fraternity you know of like do I move through this you're going to

[00:17:22] go through this it's a right of passage that's right basically in fact it it's a it's a it's a

[00:17:27] badge of honor it's right you that you went through this because you you are now a green beret

[00:17:33] you're a navy seal like this isn't for everybody you're elite because you could put up with this

[00:17:39] yeah look look at you know the the people who couldn't make it you're you're an a player

[00:17:46] yeah and i'm glad you brought up that in sports you know it we we do this a lot there

[00:17:54] a lot whenever you have the top of your game and that's really what fundamentally is going on here

[00:17:59] is I was that associate who wanted to be at the top of my associate class now the 35 of us

[00:18:06] eight types very competitive that a dot a dot a dot some of that came from within

[00:18:13] right in the the culture didn't stop us from doing it and didn't but didn't so it's didn't

[00:18:22] encourage nor discourage right and maybe it occurs me because you paid me more but I've seen that in

[00:18:29] highly competitive elite professionals of any sort where they actually it is a right a passage

[00:18:36] it is a point of pride to be able to say I did this for law I remembered working through a you

[00:18:44] know a weekend and I was so proud of the fact that I worked the entire July 4th weekend on this

[00:18:48] case and I brag you know the rest of you losers were out enjoying July 4th Johnny Taylor was in

[00:18:55] hustling and I'm going to make part in our earlier than you all the organization the the

[00:18:59] law firm didn't force me to do that I kind of wanted it it was bragging rights for me and you do

[00:19:05] see that as people get to you know we see an athlete and athletics people play heart they know

[00:19:13] they're not supposed to the question is should the coach not allow them to do it in this instance

[00:19:19] should the people manage you say I know you're driven Johnny but I'm not I'm going to make you go

[00:19:24] stop leave period so there's a lot of this going on I don't know enough and you and I don't know all

[00:19:30] of the facts I will tell you the notion of bringing someone back an hour after having worked

[00:19:35] essentially 24 to 28 hours it seems wrong and it seems there's no set of circumstances to justify it

[00:19:45] it doesn't tell me if this is an arcade direction to go in I'm thinking about like our HR

[00:19:51] practitioner who's listening to this and said well maybe it's not with those guys should we

[00:19:56] don't have people dying or ambulance is coming to the office because people are working too much but

[00:20:01] but there's some managers there's some people leaders that are pushing people too hard they're

[00:20:08] getting an environment and again in this particular case the allegation and with just 1100 comments

[00:20:17] coming after people used to work they're like yeah that's the way it works as an HR person like

[00:20:24] like we put the rules in place you know they're supposed to do this we kind of know

[00:20:31] yeah maybe not everything's being adhered to the way that it's been prescribed

[00:20:35] what you'll face to the HR professional listening to this that it sees things that they know are right

[00:20:42] but it's been it in the culture somehow well that's one sea is culture but courage is the

[00:20:48] other sea and we as HR professionals owe it to our employers as well as our employees to step up when

[00:20:56] we see wrong being done I mean it's the same excuse that people used for the casting couch in media

[00:21:04] you know well that's the way it was and I knew it was going it was the it wasn't to secret that

[00:21:11] mind steam or did what mind steam did and we allowed these people to start again the elite

[00:21:19] to to do this and we see this in music and industry we've seen this everywhere shame on us as a

[00:21:25] profession and I get I'm not saying it's easy to be courageous to go in and say you know that

[00:21:31] big rainmaker on the investment banking side or the law firm he or she is running their people

[00:21:38] racket and I as HR so what's my job ideally ideally you would go to that person and use our

[00:21:46] influence in persuasion skills to remind them of their people on the other side of the desk right

[00:21:52] and and I've found it I've worked in an environment where you go and say listen I know what you're trying

[00:21:56] to do to your point do you need me to find you more people do you can we do things to give

[00:22:03] you can we agree on how we're going to help you manage your talent because it's not good for you

[00:22:09] if you burn this person out or they you know lose their life because now that star that you thought

[00:22:14] you couldn't do without you're going to have to do without anyway so courageous conversations

[00:22:19] where it doesn't work with the manager and I try not to go around people but go and write

[00:22:24] that people leader people manager level and having using your skills to get them to find a

[00:22:30] solution to achieve their workload if it's not possible then you must go up the chain and escalate

[00:22:37] it to someone who can really address it and that's where your CHR oath and ultimately the

[00:22:43] sea the rest of the sea sweet has to step in and say this is not good for anyone so it's courage

[00:22:48] it's courage courage yeah I appreciate that you say that it is courage I think too there's an

[00:22:55] opportunity for B of A to turn this into it it's going to take a little bit of time but

[00:23:04] ultimately competitive advantage right you know kind of rise from the ashes of you know this is

[00:23:11] not a great article this does not reflect well on them what are we going to do to change the

[00:23:18] for this and actually create a competitive advantage because this clearly has recruiting

[00:23:27] implications also I'm not sure if I was looking to do a deal that I'm going to run over to B of A right

[00:23:33] now because I'm not really sure I like how they do business and again not trying to be naive and

[00:23:38] it I don't understand how investment banking really really works but at the same time

[00:23:46] you know something that's a little more ethical a little more human centric and

[00:23:54] you don't have to sacrifice your life on the way to the deal that's great you and I think that

[00:24:01] it feels like there's there's some element of Wall Street in this case but it could be other

[00:24:07] industries it believes like now it is kind of a pure victory yeah we lost a bunch of people

[00:24:13] we got the deal but I do think there's a competitive advantage opportunity for B of A to

[00:24:20] turn this with right now not a great PR move into here's what we've done differently and here's

[00:24:26] what makes us better for it Bob and I have all the confidence that that's exactly what they're doing

[00:24:31] I mean the reality is and this is no excuse for anyone but when you run these large enterprises I mean

[00:24:38] I don't my organization pales in size and comparison to from a size perspective sort of a V&A

[00:24:45] the event but we've got a hundred or so people in India and the Middle East there are several layers

[00:24:52] of management over there on any given day I'm not sure that I know what's going on could there be a

[00:24:59] people manager even at sure who is a driver and is driving their people to the point of

[00:25:06] the question is I can do and it is important at the corporate level to make sure that you continue

[00:25:12] cascading down this is our culture we don't burn in churn people etc and we enforce that and then

[00:25:18] the only other thing that I can do is if I learn that the woman who actual con as you know is running

[00:25:25] the India and our business is in fact not living the cultural guiding principles that we have

[00:25:32] I culture up or culture out and that's where we is HR and that's where that curve comes from

[00:25:39] as we've got to be able to say even if that person is a superstar producer you've got to be able

[00:25:46] to say the ends don't justify the means right so I appreciate any parting thoughts on this

[00:25:52] Johnny because it's a tough issue there's not a simple answer because no tough issue has a simple

[00:25:57] answer any parting thoughts you want to leave folks with yeah and it's I resist calling them

[00:26:03] parting thoughts because it may feel like I'm now putting the responsibility on this back on the

[00:26:08] employee but I will say we also individually and you and I talk about managing our careers

[00:26:15] yeah no one is going to make me work on that I was really at least I you know what I mean there's

[00:26:20] a point at which I have a tough decision I might if I need to work I might do it for a period of

[00:26:26] time but I'm going to be in the market looking for a new job because you can't do that so I just

[00:26:30] would remind all of us you used to turn agency yes I'm not gonna get right I'm not gonna let you

[00:26:36] kill me over a paycheck I'm just not gonna let it happen and we do have to remind employees

[00:26:42] that you're not a slave he worked here because you choose to work here because we choose to

[00:26:46] happy work here and and it does require a certain amount of standing up and saying enough

[00:26:51] do you am I off here sometimes you never know and and I appreciate you saying because the

[00:26:57] big carrot is the paycheck and at some level we have to decide what's important to us you know

[00:27:02] and again I have a high appreciation for people they're very achievement oriented some

[00:27:09] people are money motivated I hear and that but you're making choices these are choices that you

[00:27:17] are making as a young person who hasn't seen a lot of the world outside of a classroom potentially

[00:27:22] and then you get into real life in New York working at you know a Fortune 50 institution

[00:27:31] maybe this is not what I thought it was gonna be E oh and G like I think I need to pivot from this

[00:27:38] you figure out how to make something work here or pivot from it but to your point we always have

[00:27:44] autonomy we always have agency and if this isn't a lining with who I am and what I want to be

[00:27:51] but at the same time you know what I go into this with Malice of Fourth thought

[00:27:57] I know what I'm doing but I want the pedigree and I am willing to put up with a pretty high

[00:28:03] level of crap to get there good on you that's your choice god bless you that's your choice

[00:28:11] just mind your health no the consequences that's right thanks so much again

[00:28:16] John we do not I love this because you know we'll talk about real things and

[00:28:22] you're not just what's kind of the happy little answer to things these are hard choices

[00:28:26] and it's real life and this is happening in the workplace today I just appreciate the opportunity

[00:28:31] I know our audience appreciate the opportunity to kind of really fully explore them so thank you

[00:28:37] thank you and and thank you for tackling something as we could this is a tough one it's it's not as

[00:28:42] black on white the headline is jargon godhead and the story beyond the headline is very disturbing

[00:28:50] but I think what we as HR professionals have to do and people managers who are listening

[00:28:55] is you've now got to unpack this and really focus on what we do to ensure that we aren't

[00:29:00] that headline story that our organization is I think that one that's probably the okay the what now

[00:29:06] yep awesome all right Johnny I will let you go listen to an audience thank you guys so much

[00:29:11] for spending a few minutes with us they hear on the work like thanks Johnny thank you