In the latest episode of Work Wire, Bob Goodwin of Career Club and Johnny Taylor Jr. from SHRM go deep into the evolving landscape of workplace loyalty, sparked by a recent Business Insider article by Aki Ito on its perceived decline. The discussion explores the historical shift from a "company man" mentality to today's more transactional employee-employer relationships influenced by globalization and technological advancements. Johnny emphasizes the dual role of employers and employees in the erosion of trust.
The conversation also addresses the impacts of technology on the labor market, noting that it not only broadens opportunities for employees but also for employers to seek cheaper labor globally.
Bob and Johnny discuss the changing nature of employment contracts, influenced by shifts towards knowledge-based work and the fading relevance of traditional job security measures like pensions.
Highlighting the complexity of modern employment dynamics, they argue that loyalty must be mutual and conditional, challenging the traditional notion of unwavering company loyalty. This episode promises deep insights into the strategic and human elements shaping today's workplaces, urging HR professionals and employees to reconsider the meaning of loyalty in a rapidly changing work environment.
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[00:00:31] Hello everybody, this is Bob Goodwin with Career Club.
[00:00:35] Welcome to another episode of The Work Wire where I'm joined by my good friend and cohost,
[00:00:40] the CEO and president of SHRM, Johnny C. Taylor Jr.
[00:00:43] Johnny, how are you?
[00:00:44] I'm doing well today.
[00:00:46] Well, honest, I got a little crook neck, a crook in my neck, but everything is wonderful.
[00:00:50] Your age and stuff is going to happen, okay?
[00:00:53] Oh, gosh, I feel an ageism topic coming up, but we'll talk about that later.
[00:00:59] Well, we'll find out.
[00:01:02] So today's topic is on loyalty.
[00:01:07] We're recording this towards the end of February and recently there was an article
[00:01:12] in Business Insider by one of their chief correspondents, Aki Ito, and she was exploring
[00:01:20] the perception of the disappearance or the decrease in loyalty that is being felt between
[00:01:30] employees and employers.
[00:01:32] I'm just going to kind of go through a couple of highlights to get you and our audience
[00:01:37] grounded in some of the key aspects of the article, and then we'll pick the thread
[00:01:42] up from there.
[00:01:43] So as Aki writes, the article discusses the changing relationship between employers
[00:01:48] and employees, emphasizing the decline of traditional workplace loyalty amidst phenomena
[00:01:53] like quiet quitting and job hopping.
[00:01:56] From a historical context, it used to be that companies shared their prosperity with
[00:02:03] their employers through benefits, job security, all that kind of company man mentality that
[00:02:09] helped forge this psychological contract that this is employment for life and that
[00:02:16] if you've got me, I've got you kind of mentality.
[00:02:19] I can't believe I'm going to say this to a lawyer, but we're the contract principles
[00:02:24] of mutuality and reciprocity applied and we can unpack those in a minute.
[00:02:29] So what happened?
[00:02:32] What the writer says is things like globalization and just changes in business practices
[00:02:38] have led to more transactional relationships.
[00:02:41] So we can think about whether it's private equity firms leaning on the company or their
[00:02:46] public companies and stock market is pressuring them.
[00:02:50] But just the traditional contract has become kind of unwound.
[00:02:56] So what are some companies?
[00:02:58] Well, we'll get into what some companies are doing in a minute.
[00:03:01] But I just want to start at the start with you, Johnny.
[00:03:04] Do you even agree with the basic premise that there's a decline in loyalty between
[00:03:10] employees and employers?
[00:03:13] Yes.
[00:03:14] I don't think there's much of a debate about that where I might differ when we get to
[00:03:20] that fork in the road with hockey is the cause of it.
[00:03:25] Much of the narrative is around what companies have done to violate that trust and to
[00:03:33] affect loyalty.
[00:03:35] And there's not enough of a conversation, I'd suggest to you around what employees,
[00:03:42] the employee population has done.
[00:03:46] Let's go all the way back to and I'm old enough now to talk about it since you
[00:03:49] talked about my age.
[00:03:53] Why 2K?
[00:03:54] Do you remember when we all thought the world was going to end on midnight 1201?
[00:03:59] Right.
[00:04:01] In the year 2000.
[00:04:02] And for those of you too young enough to know, literally 23 or so years ago, there
[00:04:08] was this real fear that when we hit calendar year 2000, all of our systems would go
[00:04:13] sideways and the world as we knew it would come to an end.
[00:04:16] Well, the fact of matters that didn't happen until 2020.
[00:04:18] That was called COVID.
[00:04:19] But it wasn't a Y2K.
[00:04:22] I remembered being an HR at Blockbuster at the time.
[00:04:26] And we had, you know, we were in the earliest stages of technology and the embracing of
[00:04:31] technology.
[00:04:32] But we had a great group of technologists.
[00:04:35] Unfortunately, as we got closer 1998, 1999, we saw a technologist come in and say,
[00:04:42] I can go across the street for 30% increase.
[00:04:45] I want a signing bonus if you don't give it to me, I'm out.
[00:04:48] If you don't do this, you don't do that.
[00:04:50] I'm leaving you at your most vulnerable point.
[00:04:53] Remember, at this point, companies were afraid of what was going to happen at 1201
[00:04:58] come the year 2000.
[00:05:00] We were literally being held hostage.
[00:05:03] And I remember the CEO then of the company Blockbuster saying to me, OK, we have to
[00:05:08] do what we have to do.
[00:05:09] But I assure you, if the world continues to exist in a way that we hope it does
[00:05:15] in 2000, we're going to pull all of this back.
[00:05:18] We're going to lay these people off.
[00:05:19] We're going to cut these salaries.
[00:05:21] We're going to return the favor.
[00:05:25] So I don't know if that it started in 2000.
[00:05:28] I can tell you, in my professional career, mid 1990s when I was early on in my
[00:05:33] career, even I began to question loyalty.
[00:05:37] And it wasn't the company's loyalty to the employee.
[00:05:40] It was the employees who realized they now had leverage and they used it against us.
[00:05:45] And thus, at least in my the last 30 years, I've seen it tear further and further
[00:05:52] apart.
[00:05:52] The question is what started that?
[00:05:56] So let's unpack that a little bit.
[00:05:58] That's very unfortunate kind of that blackmailing or extortion or whatever the
[00:06:02] right term is for those programmers.
[00:06:04] That's not cool.
[00:06:06] What strikes me is, and I'm older than you, so there's ageism, but going back
[00:06:13] even further.
[00:06:14] So if I was like in Detroit and I'm a company man working at Ford or General
[00:06:19] Motors or wherever, one is that was a labor oriented job.
[00:06:27] And so there's only so many places to take my back and my hands to go do the
[00:06:32] work.
[00:06:34] Secondly, you're in a pre-internet, pre-technology world, information
[00:06:40] transparency was not high.
[00:06:43] So I didn't even know what was available to me because there wasn't much there was
[00:06:48] more opacity than transparency with what's available.
[00:06:53] And then as the nature of work has shifted to be more knowledge oriented and less
[00:07:01] sweat oriented, then technology enables me to work from somewhere else and I
[00:07:10] don't have to be.
[00:07:11] And so it just creates a lot more fluidity in what my opportunities are.
[00:07:18] So I think a lot of these things have sort of moved in favor of the talent
[00:07:24] pool to just have more choices.
[00:07:27] Well, and but let's continue.
[00:07:30] And it has technology has given us from the employer perspective, more
[00:07:35] choices.
[00:07:36] The globalization is that Aki refers to.
[00:07:39] At one time, the big three produced what 80 90 percent of the cars in America
[00:07:43] will now foreign cars can enter the U.S.
[00:07:46] market so we can get that car made more cheaply in another part of the world
[00:07:51] imported into the United States and therefore you don't have a lock.
[00:07:55] You know, the big three don't have a lock on the monopoly of acquiring
[00:08:00] cars and therefore labor costs are at odds with the fact that your
[00:08:05] counterpart will build that same car for you with employees who work for 10
[00:08:10] bucks an hour in another part of the world.
[00:08:12] Your folks want 40 dollars an hour.
[00:08:14] So I mean, it's just we got to realize all of those things that you
[00:08:17] described technology also gives us as employers more choice.
[00:08:23] It's not just the employee gives us more choice.
[00:08:26] I was talking to someone, as you know, because we covered this on the
[00:08:29] work wire and a couple of episodes ago, people who during the height of
[00:08:34] the pandemic who said, I don't want to work in the office.
[00:08:36] I can work from anywhere.
[00:08:38] And what do we say to them?
[00:08:39] That's a really good point, which means I can hire someone anywhere.
[00:08:43] You know, this cuts both ways.
[00:08:45] So yes, employee, you have that argument and I say, hey,
[00:08:48] and I've got the argument that you're absolutely right.
[00:08:50] So you right now are sitting in Manhattan as a technologist charging,
[00:08:55] you know, costing me 100,000 a year and I can hire that same person
[00:08:58] in India because after all, you've told me you could be in India
[00:09:01] for what it's worth for 40 grand.
[00:09:03] These all of these arguments, that's where it has led.
[00:09:06] That's really my opening point was both sides have realized
[00:09:11] that they have options when it comes to labor.
[00:09:13] Right. Which is employment at will again, right?
[00:09:18] I mean, that really does become kind of a bedrock of a lot
[00:09:21] of these conversations and as you say, that cuts both ways.
[00:09:25] I don't want to get too stuck in this because I'd like to
[00:09:28] keep the conversation going.
[00:09:29] But to what extent do you think just the weight of pensions
[00:09:35] has contributed to this?
[00:09:37] Listen, very few companies and employers generally,
[00:09:41] the government and even the government has modified
[00:09:43] its pension offering.
[00:09:44] Have those anyway, I think back in the day,
[00:09:48] back in the day.
[00:09:49] Listen, it was there was as as rightly the article referred
[00:09:53] to and as you know, there was this social social contract.
[00:09:55] I worked for you for 30 years.
[00:09:57] You have some obligation to ensure that I enjoy the rest
[00:10:01] of my life post work.
[00:10:03] At least I'm able to eat and provide for myself
[00:10:06] and medical care, etc.
[00:10:07] It's the whole concept of Medicare and the like, right?
[00:10:10] That's the trade off.
[00:10:11] Once employees got really comfortable moving around
[00:10:15] and changing jobs instead of two jobs in your career,
[00:10:18] you have 20.
[00:10:19] What is the point of a pension?
[00:10:21] You're not going to be there long enough to invest in it
[00:10:23] anyway.
[00:10:24] So the pension with the way of the past,
[00:10:27] we went to more portable options like 401k plans
[00:10:31] and companies are contributing.
[00:10:32] Now they're not contributing and guaranteeing
[00:10:34] the way they used to do traditional plans.
[00:10:36] But I don't think that's it.
[00:10:38] I think it gets to the issue of pensions going away
[00:10:43] or yes, partly in response to companies needing
[00:10:47] to have more budget certainty.
[00:10:49] Interest rates go up, interest rates go down.
[00:10:52] That affects pension liability, etc.
[00:10:53] But the other part of it is employees were saying to us,
[00:10:56] I'm not going to be with you 30 years from now.
[00:10:58] Hell, I'm not going to be with you five years from now.
[00:11:00] So I don't need a pension.
[00:11:01] I need something else.
[00:11:03] And thus was born 401ks and now other versions of that.
[00:11:07] So I don't know.
[00:11:08] It's not a big pension issue anymore.
[00:11:09] That's the thing.
[00:11:10] No, not anymore.
[00:11:11] I just think that that is one of the catalysts.
[00:11:13] It's like people are living longer.
[00:11:16] I didn't budget for this amount of liability
[00:11:19] for this period of time.
[00:11:21] Someone's got to give.
[00:11:22] How do we push this back on to the employee
[00:11:26] and let her be responsible will help,
[00:11:29] but not to the extent certainly not guaranteeing
[00:11:32] like the old school plans used to do.
[00:11:35] Listen, we got it.
[00:11:36] This is a whole nother topic that I hope you will pull back up
[00:11:39] because I think you've touched something
[00:11:41] that is really a big conversation.
[00:11:44] We also did not factor the exponential growth in labor cost.
[00:11:50] And I was just looking at this the other day
[00:11:53] and I'm using rough numbers, but they're really close.
[00:11:56] The minimum wage in 2012 in retail
[00:12:02] in practice was about seven, eight bucks an hour.
[00:12:06] That's what people got as the norm
[00:12:08] and the federal minimum wage was seven bucks or so an hour
[00:12:11] and people made a little bit more,
[00:12:13] but that was the retail minimum wage.
[00:12:14] You're 17, 18.
[00:12:15] You work in the malls on weekends after hours.
[00:12:17] That's when you get.
[00:12:19] Fast forward that number is now $19 an hour
[00:12:24] in just a decade and a year.
[00:12:27] So 13 years, 11 years.
[00:12:30] In 11 years it has nearly tripled the cost of labor.
[00:12:36] Something has to give.
[00:12:38] And so employers are trying to sort through all of this
[00:12:41] and continue to protect the bottom line
[00:12:43] because if the company loses money, guess what?
[00:12:45] It doesn't exist.
[00:12:46] And we saw, as you know, when it came to pension back
[00:12:49] in the day, the first thing that goes away
[00:12:51] when a company files for bankruptcy
[00:12:53] is all of that pension liability.
[00:12:55] So back to your pension point.
[00:12:56] So this is all labor costs have exponentially grown.
[00:12:59] Hell, they've grown big time since COVID alone
[00:13:03] and companies are just trying to keep up.
[00:13:06] Well, yes and, okay, because we're talking.
[00:13:11] It wasn't, but three years ago,
[00:13:14] in some cases maybe even two years ago,
[00:13:16] the companies were bidding and basically talent hoarding.
[00:13:22] And so it's like I'm meta
[00:13:24] and I want the very best people.
[00:13:25] Like, you know, I want as many of the very best people.
[00:13:28] So I'm just going to go buy talent
[00:13:30] and just have it so you don't have it, alphabet.
[00:13:35] That happened, which is sort of what preceded
[00:13:37] the big tech layoffs.
[00:13:39] Well, hands down, but that's 30 companies.
[00:13:44] Okay, so I think sometimes the headline is meta
[00:13:47] and alphabet and blah, blah, blah.
[00:13:48] The vast majority of companies in America
[00:13:51] overwhelmingly are small and medium sized companies
[00:13:54] and they didn't have the opportunity to hoard talent.
[00:13:56] They were still operating on thin margins
[00:13:58] and they did not have hoards and hoards
[00:14:00] of people and layers of it.
[00:14:02] In fact, those small and medium sized companies
[00:14:05] were negatively impacted by that very behavior
[00:14:07] because they had to now fight for talent.
[00:14:10] No, that's my point.
[00:14:11] I mean, that's why I'm saying there is a ripple effect
[00:14:13] to this. There's a huge ripple effect,
[00:14:15] but Apple and Google and Meta
[00:14:18] and all the companies that were doing it
[00:14:20] were only responding to the demands of the employee.
[00:14:23] The employees said, if you want me to work here,
[00:14:25] you got to pay me a million dollars.
[00:14:26] Supply and demand though, right?
[00:14:27] I mean, that's the nature of a capitalistic market.
[00:14:31] And I love this until we said,
[00:14:35] some of that supply I can hire in India.
[00:14:39] Article in the Wall Street Journal a couple of weeks ago,
[00:14:41] Guy was making 160,000 miles a year
[00:14:44] in Silicon Valley as an engineer.
[00:14:47] When they laid those people off
[00:14:49] and are continuing to lay them off,
[00:14:51] he had to go back to India
[00:14:52] because he was here on a visa, only a work visa.
[00:14:55] And he's working now for about 40,000 miles a year.
[00:14:58] That same guy with the same set of credentials
[00:15:00] doing the same amount of work
[00:15:02] just took a 70, 80% pay cut.
[00:15:05] So this thing cuts both ways.
[00:15:07] You know, it really does.
[00:15:09] That's where I'm scared to go, Johnny,
[00:15:10] is that, hey, I don't have the demand,
[00:15:13] therefore I don't need the supply.
[00:15:15] So it's sort of the other side of the coin
[00:15:19] that doesn't feel quite as good.
[00:15:20] But how do you...
[00:15:20] Well, let me say this before you go
[00:15:22] because this is really important.
[00:15:23] We use a lot of sports jargon, you and I do.
[00:15:26] And we do this a lot.
[00:15:27] We understand that the marquee player gets X
[00:15:32] and can demand certain perks
[00:15:34] and treatments and everything else.
[00:15:37] The person sitting on the bench
[00:15:38] makes X minus something, right?
[00:15:41] And you leverage when you are LeBron James
[00:15:45] or Steph Curry or whatever,
[00:15:46] and then you can negotiate.
[00:15:48] But when you are no longer as good as you used to be,
[00:15:51] what happens?
[00:15:52] The team trades you or they cut you.
[00:15:55] It's just, I mean, that's the nature of it.
[00:15:57] You leverage when you have to leverage
[00:16:00] the organization, no one would suggest that,
[00:16:02] oh my gosh, the company is horrible
[00:16:04] because, you know, play...
[00:16:05] The player is now 40 and can't shoot
[00:16:08] and run up and down the court
[00:16:09] as quickly as he did when he was 20.
[00:16:11] It's just we paid you
[00:16:12] when you were at the top of your game
[00:16:13] and you leveraged us and made us pay you
[00:16:15] an obscene amount of money.
[00:16:17] And now we're done with you.
[00:16:19] How about...
[00:16:20] No, okay, so this is kind of where
[00:16:23] I said where we would go.
[00:16:24] I know.
[00:16:26] I know I'm probably going to misuse this word,
[00:16:28] but kind of existentially,
[00:16:30] is loyalty even a concept worth debating?
[00:16:35] That's a real...
[00:16:36] That is the question that I've actually toyed with.
[00:16:40] I think there's value in it
[00:16:42] as long as we understand the limitations of it.
[00:16:45] Someone said the other day,
[00:16:46] they don't use the phrase work family
[00:16:50] because you don't divorce.
[00:16:51] You don't just walk away.
[00:16:53] I mean, I was going to go there later,
[00:16:54] so I'm glad you're here.
[00:16:55] Right?
[00:16:56] You don't come in and say,
[00:16:57] hey mom, you know, you were a great mom
[00:16:59] when I was a dependent,
[00:17:01] but now I don't need you so much,
[00:17:02] so you're out.
[00:17:04] But in corporate America, we do.
[00:17:06] Hey mom, your skills are not as useful to me anymore.
[00:17:10] So I think it's loyalty while I'm here.
[00:17:14] And employees have said that I'm loyal while I'm here,
[00:17:17] but I've not promised you
[00:17:18] that I'm going to be here five years from now.
[00:17:21] Employees have said that to us
[00:17:23] and a lot during the great resignation.
[00:17:25] Let's talk about this.
[00:17:26] I went all the way back to 1999,
[00:17:28] but we don't have to go that far.
[00:17:29] We can go 2018 all the way post COVID to 2021
[00:17:35] when employees were just walking in and saying,
[00:17:38] I can get more to go across the street.
[00:17:39] I know you've been great.
[00:17:40] I know you just pay for my MBA,
[00:17:42] which positioned me to get the job across the street.
[00:17:45] I know that I've had a great people manager.
[00:17:46] You've promoted me twice.
[00:17:47] I know you've done everything,
[00:17:48] but guess what?
[00:17:50] You too would have to go
[00:17:51] if someone gave you a $30,000 or $40,000 raise.
[00:17:54] That's what they've said to us.
[00:17:56] And so I push back and often say,
[00:17:59] so where is the loyalty?
[00:18:00] Or to your fundamental question,
[00:18:03] which I think is the right one is,
[00:18:05] do I need to be loyal to you?
[00:18:07] Do you need to be loyal to me?
[00:18:08] Maybe we just, we engage in this transaction
[00:18:10] and I get what I can get out of you while I'm here.
[00:18:12] You get what you can get out of me.
[00:18:14] And then when it's done, it's done.
[00:18:16] Okay.
[00:18:16] So where I would go in this one
[00:18:19] is I think that that is playing a very short game
[00:18:23] on both sides.
[00:18:25] Because I don't know if you're familiar
[00:18:27] with a book called Work Quake.
[00:18:28] Steve Cadigan wrote it.
[00:18:30] He was LinkedIn's first CHRO.
[00:18:33] And a very important point that he makes
[00:18:37] is that we should care about people
[00:18:40] for their whole career for a few reasons.
[00:18:44] Boomerang employees, right?
[00:18:46] So people leave, they come back, right?
[00:18:49] They're going to, another point would be
[00:18:50] they're part of our ecosystem.
[00:18:52] They may go be a customer of mine,
[00:18:55] a supplier of mine, a partner of mine.
[00:18:59] So we want to maintain good relationships with people.
[00:19:02] Even when they're not in our employ,
[00:19:04] from a talent perspective, there's also the,
[00:19:07] hey, I haven't worked there anymore,
[00:19:08] but I still really like that company.
[00:19:10] Johnny, you should apply there.
[00:19:11] You'd be a great fit at company X.
[00:19:15] So that playing a bit of a longer game,
[00:19:18] as Dory Clark would say,
[00:19:20] is actually the smart game to play.
[00:19:22] So yeah, if you want to view a transaction like that,
[00:19:26] that's okay.
[00:19:27] But if you can take a bigger view on both sides,
[00:19:31] on both sides.
[00:19:33] Both sides.
[00:19:34] That's the issue, Bob, is I agree violently with you.
[00:19:38] And I try to do that every day at Shurm
[00:19:40] and in every organization that I've worked in.
[00:19:42] Even when I wasn't CEO,
[00:19:44] I was trying to convince my CH, my CEO.
[00:19:47] But it's increasingly a hard argument
[00:19:50] that you want loyalty from me,
[00:19:53] but you're not willing to give me loyalty.
[00:19:56] The CEOs see it.
[00:19:57] The hiring managers see it.
[00:20:00] And so I come in as the HR person saying,
[00:20:02] we've got to take care of our people.
[00:20:04] We've got to, you know, re-skill them.
[00:20:07] Oh, and I paid for their MBA and the person,
[00:20:09] the day or the week that they graduated,
[00:20:11] they went across the street.
[00:20:13] That's what we call loyalty.
[00:20:15] So there's this increasingly corporate America is saying,
[00:20:18] there needs to be some reciprocity in this game.
[00:20:21] You want me to be loyal to you
[00:20:22] through the good and the bad,
[00:20:23] you've got to be loyal to you.
[00:20:25] You have to be loyal to me.
[00:20:27] And that is what I would say to the writer of the article
[00:20:31] is that we've got to be honest
[00:20:33] that both sides, employers and employees,
[00:20:36] if you want to get back, it's like a marriage.
[00:20:38] Like if you want me to be loyal to you wife,
[00:20:40] then you had sure as heck better be loyal to me
[00:20:43] as your husband.
[00:20:44] And you can't go out and cheat on me
[00:20:46] and expect me to sort of sit here and be here for you.
[00:20:49] Like it doesn't work that way.
[00:20:50] We've got to get back to it.
[00:20:51] So mutuality of loyalty.
[00:20:54] And if we could get there, good.
[00:20:56] Unfortunately, I don't think that's real.
[00:20:59] I think that is la la land because employees move
[00:21:03] and they told us they're going to move.
[00:21:05] They're willing to move.
[00:21:06] So there you have it.
[00:21:07] Why would I build a pension plan for a workforce
[00:21:10] where overwhelmingly 80% of them tell me
[00:21:12] I don't plan to be here 10 years from now?
[00:21:14] Well, why would I invest in a pension plan for you then?
[00:21:17] Right.
[00:21:18] So you hit on a couple of things
[00:21:20] and it gets back to the contract language,
[00:21:23] which is this mutuality, reciprocity.
[00:21:27] And then I think all of that kind of leads ultimately
[00:21:29] to trust.
[00:21:31] One of the things that we see, Johnny,
[00:21:32] with our clients at Career Club,
[00:21:34] and we work a lot with the candidate side
[00:21:38] of the equation is that they actually
[00:21:45] would hope for more longevity sometimes in these roles.
[00:21:50] If they're actually not looking to be free agents
[00:21:53] all the time and look, does money talk?
[00:21:55] Yes.
[00:21:56] But one of the big lessons that I think
[00:21:59] a lot of people took from the pandemic
[00:22:02] was compensation isn't everything.
[00:22:05] Work-life integration, like I need the ability
[00:22:07] to go take care of my mom.
[00:22:09] And I deal with the health issue
[00:22:12] that you guys provide some flexibility for
[00:22:15] and understanding.
[00:22:16] The work's just more interesting here
[00:22:18] than across the street.
[00:22:20] You guys actually have a purpose
[00:22:21] that I can get aligned with.
[00:22:24] Why do people quit jobs?
[00:22:25] What's the number one reason?
[00:22:26] My boss.
[00:22:27] Like I did, my boss wasn't great.
[00:22:30] And number two is money.
[00:22:33] They go back and back.
[00:22:36] I just want to make the case that there's
[00:22:39] so many other aspects that play on why there's loyalty.
[00:22:45] We've talked about this before
[00:22:46] and I don't think I'm sharing anything out of school.
[00:22:49] But some of the people at Career Club
[00:22:54] need flexibility for different reasons.
[00:22:57] And I am very happy to provide that to them
[00:23:01] because they are excellent colleagues.
[00:23:06] They produce at a very high level
[00:23:08] that if I thought about replacing them,
[00:23:11] it makes my tummy hurt.
[00:23:13] I don't want to think about it.
[00:23:14] So there's that mutuality
[00:23:18] and I get a phone call from somebody
[00:23:20] who's probably not making as much money
[00:23:22] as she could somewhere else.
[00:23:24] But the whole package fits her life much better
[00:23:29] and therefore that becomes a healthy relationship
[00:23:32] that we've got
[00:23:32] and it isn't just sort of a bidding war
[00:23:35] that I'm holding with her talent.
[00:23:38] And you are, first of all,
[00:23:41] a great people manager.
[00:23:42] I know this.
[00:23:42] Even people who've left there
[00:23:44] don't say negative things about you.
[00:23:46] That being said, not to me at least
[00:23:48] because they know I take it out on them.
[00:23:50] But I defend my brother.
[00:23:51] But no, that being said,
[00:23:53] I wished the world operated that way.
[00:23:56] And I think if you were polling
[00:23:58] and we do poll managers,
[00:24:01] we see people who've done everything right by
[00:24:05] will leave us if they're getting more money.
[00:24:08] And it depends upon how much money.
[00:24:09] Will they leave for five, 10%?
[00:24:11] No. 30%, 40%.
[00:24:13] Yes.
[00:24:14] And you almost can't blame them,
[00:24:16] but you can blame them.
[00:24:17] Because the point is if you want loyalty,
[00:24:21] it has to be reciprocated.
[00:24:23] I'd love to say to my spouse
[00:24:24] that just because a younger, richer,
[00:24:26] more handsome man walks in the door
[00:24:28] that you don't leave me.
[00:24:29] And if that's okay,
[00:24:31] then you can't scream bloody murder
[00:24:33] when I find a younger,
[00:24:34] more beautiful, richer woman.
[00:24:36] And I walk out on you and our three kids, right?
[00:24:39] You just this idea that you can have it both ways
[00:24:42] is the problem.
[00:24:43] And that's what I wish we would talk more about
[00:24:47] is be honest with yourself.
[00:24:49] How many times have you walked out on an employer
[00:24:53] who every day wasn't perfect
[00:24:55] and there's no such thing as a perfect relationship,
[00:24:57] marriages, friendships, nothing
[00:24:59] that you just left because you,
[00:25:01] A, I just wanted a change
[00:25:03] or B, I didn't like this.
[00:25:06] People leave us for a lot of reasons.
[00:25:08] And so employees have said
[00:25:10] let's do away with the fairy tale
[00:25:12] you want loyalty from me
[00:25:13] because I can't count on loyalty from you.
[00:25:17] Right. And so I think that,
[00:25:20] you know, again, can you get all the way to Nirvana?
[00:25:23] Probably not.
[00:25:25] But I do believe
[00:25:26] that it is a massive competitive edge
[00:25:29] for companies that to the greatest extent possible
[00:25:34] can demonstrate genuine care
[00:25:38] for the people in their employ
[00:25:41] because for the companies that are more,
[00:25:44] I don't mean this quite as pejoratively
[00:25:46] as I'm going to say it,
[00:25:47] but are more ruthless
[00:25:49] in how they think about their talent
[00:25:53] that supports their business.
[00:25:55] That's the one that actually seems to be more
[00:25:58] and you're the leader of all HR people in the world
[00:26:01] like who are more people-centric,
[00:26:03] more empathetic
[00:26:05] are going to have a significant competitive advantage.
[00:26:08] It doesn't mean I can guarantee you employment for life
[00:26:11] it doesn't mean that I can guarantee
[00:26:12] that you always be the highest paid person in your field
[00:26:16] but what I can strive for, aspire to
[00:26:20] is to create the best work-life integration
[00:26:24] that meets your needs, and ours.
[00:26:28] Of course, that's what we are all aspiring for
[00:26:31] which is why when you sent the article
[00:26:33] and yeah, these two things can be true
[00:26:38] that we as employers want an amazing employer brand
[00:26:41] for all the reasons that you discussed.
[00:26:43] I want an active alumni group
[00:26:45] that's supportive of me.
[00:26:46] I formally work there, it's a great place.
[00:26:48] I want all of that, check, check, check and check.
[00:26:51] I just think that when we poll employees,
[00:26:54] I'm going to go back to the argument
[00:26:56] we polled employees and they say
[00:26:58] you've not been loyal to me
[00:26:59] and then I say, oh my last employer wasn't loyal
[00:27:02] they laid me off.
[00:27:03] How many jobs did you have before that employer?
[00:27:05] Oh eight, how old are you?
[00:27:07] 30. Were you laid off before?
[00:27:10] No, I left voluntarily for the other seven
[00:27:13] and they don't hear themselves
[00:27:15] and I'm like well the other seven employers
[00:27:17] would say the same thing about you
[00:27:19] and so when that happens 161 million times
[00:27:22] which is the size of the U.S. workforce
[00:27:24] and I'm not suggesting everyone's turning
[00:27:26] but when it happens enough
[00:27:28] you train the companies to be less committed to loyalty.
[00:27:33] I'm going to treat you well while you're here
[00:27:37] that's what I mean.
[00:27:37] Two things can be true.
[00:27:39] You're advocating for treating people well etc
[00:27:42] and I don't think, I don't know an HR person
[00:27:44] in this world who would disagree with that
[00:27:46] but the question is for the long term
[00:27:48] or do we just agree that while you're here
[00:27:51] I'm going to do really right by you
[00:27:53] but at the time that you decide to move on
[00:27:55] or I decide to move on, that's it.
[00:27:57] That was fun.
[00:27:59] Well you mentioned something
[00:28:00] I was going to bring up anyway
[00:28:02] which is alumni groups.
[00:28:03] I think that is a massively underutilized
[00:28:08] force for good for the employer.
[00:28:11] I'm in Cincinnati as you know
[00:28:13] Procter & Gamble largest consumer package goods
[00:28:15] company in the world
[00:28:16] has an extremely robust global alumni network
[00:28:23] and it works to their advantage
[00:28:26] because they maintain a very positive relationship
[00:28:30] with people and so also
[00:28:32] you've got people who are bringing them innovation ideas
[00:28:35] bringing them talent
[00:28:37] doing all kinds of things
[00:28:39] bringing them distribution for their products
[00:28:42] so many things that work to Procter's benefit
[00:28:46] by taking a little bit of a longer view
[00:28:49] and Procter is famous
[00:28:50] for not hiring mid-career people.
[00:28:52] It's like you start at Procter
[00:28:54] you retire at Procter
[00:28:55] or you start at Procter
[00:28:56] and get hired away or do whatever
[00:28:59] but you still have this affinity for P&G
[00:29:03] that again I not even I think I know
[00:29:06] works to their tangible benefit.
[00:29:10] And I think that's true of so many companies.
[00:29:13] There are some outliers where that's not the case
[00:29:15] but the reality is I come from a law firm
[00:29:17] and I'm proud to say
[00:29:19] I was an associate or a partner at X law firm
[00:29:22] and they actually helped me
[00:29:24] when I decided to go in-house
[00:29:26] they said you go there because they were smart.
[00:29:28] One day this guy will be our client.
[00:29:29] We don't want to leave him here.
[00:29:31] He just shouldn't leave the law firm pissed off with us
[00:29:33] and we should want to support him in his endeavor.
[00:29:35] So you're right.
[00:29:36] There's a way to make this work
[00:29:38] but as we wrap I really want to get back
[00:29:41] to what I think is the real conversation.
[00:29:45] Employees and employers have to look
[00:29:49] in the proverbial mirrors
[00:29:51] and just say if I want loyalty from the organization
[00:29:55] am I giving the organization loyalty?
[00:29:57] If I want them to give me job security
[00:30:01] am I giving them security about my services?
[00:30:07] And if I know being honest with myself
[00:30:10] at that moment when no one else is around you
[00:30:12] that there is a number or a set of circumstances
[00:30:17] or a geography or an industry that would make me leave
[00:30:22] then I've got to be honest and say
[00:30:24] so why shouldn't the company do the same thing?
[00:30:26] Right and so this is what I love, love, love
[00:30:28] about talking to you is none of these things are binary.
[00:30:32] This is all going to continuum.
[00:30:35] And so I'm just advocating that nobody can make
[00:30:40] an absolute promise.
[00:30:41] I can't promise you employment for life.
[00:30:43] I'm not promising you I'm going to work here forever.
[00:30:46] However, however there is in our mutual best interest
[00:30:51] to continue to support each other the best way
[00:30:54] that works for our current and likely future circumstances.
[00:31:00] Because what we haven't talked about
[00:31:01] and this is the non-binary nature of it too
[00:31:04] is retention, productivity, engagement.
[00:31:09] And so if I feel like I'm being treated well
[00:31:12] and look I get into business
[00:31:13] and the company's got to do
[00:31:14] what the company's got to do on a given day
[00:31:17] but generally I believe that they want to help me
[00:31:22] and do right by me and continue to educate me whatever.
[00:31:28] I'm going to give them my best work.
[00:31:29] I'm going to proactively bring you my ideas Johnny
[00:31:32] instead of saying screw it like I don't care.
[00:31:35] I don't care so I'll do the bare minimum
[00:31:38] and have my lazy girl job.
[00:31:40] Yep.
[00:31:41] Back to another work wire episode but right versus
[00:31:45] now I'm a fully engaged associate at this company.
[00:31:48] I'm proud of what we do
[00:31:49] and I want to do my best work.
[00:31:51] I get fulfillment from doing that.
[00:31:54] I think the companies that can foster that environment
[00:31:56] stopping short obviously of you know
[00:32:00] guarantee for life and highest compensation
[00:32:04] and other kind of just over-the-top demands.
[00:32:08] Right.
[00:32:08] I think I mean I feel like this isn't just sort of mom
[00:32:12] and apple pie like Bob who would be against those things
[00:32:15] because what we're seeing in the data is
[00:32:17] people aren't finding even that level consistently.
[00:32:22] That's right.
[00:32:23] Bob you just nailed it and it made me think about
[00:32:25] some of our other conversations on this topic.
[00:32:28] I liken the workplace commitment
[00:32:32] the relationship between worker and employee
[00:32:37] a worker who is the employee by the way an employer
[00:32:40] to any other relationship a romantic relationship
[00:32:44] you know a marriage like let's agree
[00:32:47] about who we are and everyone's not for everyone.
[00:32:51] I think part of the problem that we're seeing is
[00:32:53] people have gone to organizations
[00:32:54] or organizations have recruited people
[00:32:57] because they want the talent of the day
[00:33:01] and they haven't looked to your point are we matched?
[00:33:04] Do I agree with your values?
[00:33:06] Do I agree with the way you work?
[00:33:07] Do I like we have to be very careful as employers
[00:33:11] not to just put our best foot forward
[00:33:14] during the recruitment process and court
[00:33:17] to use the language people and only tell them
[00:33:20] you should be honest about how our organization works
[00:33:23] and you've heard me say this before
[00:33:24] we should hire for people who are technically competent
[00:33:28] but also and equally culturally aligned.
[00:33:33] Part of the loyalty disconnect is
[00:33:36] we have over corrected by hiring in many instances
[00:33:39] the person who is the best qualified right?
[00:33:42] The best set of credentials degrees and we haven't looked
[00:33:45] for cultural alignment.
[00:33:47] Well that's the beginning of a disloyalty problem
[00:33:50] because you only want me on my best day.
[00:33:52] You don't want me if I go through a divorce
[00:33:54] you don't want me if right
[00:33:56] if I have to leave early to go take care
[00:33:59] and go to my kids basketball game
[00:34:00] like you don't want that person you want a machine
[00:34:03] you pay me a lot of money
[00:34:04] and you want me to deliver like that
[00:34:05] and you don't care about the other things.
[00:34:07] Those are cultural questions
[00:34:09] that need to be addressed on the front end.
[00:34:11] Yes. Right?
[00:34:12] If you hire me purely
[00:34:14] and I'm gonna go back to the sports analogy.
[00:34:17] You know I've seen and heard of players
[00:34:20] in professional sports who've said
[00:34:22] I know my wife's having a baby
[00:34:23] but we got a big game today
[00:34:25] but you know that when you walk in the door
[00:34:28] this is how the NBA and the NFL work.
[00:34:30] You wouldn't expect me to say that to you at Charm
[00:34:33] it's because I didn't tell you that
[00:34:35] I also don't pay like that
[00:34:37] I'm sorry.
[00:34:37] Right?
[00:34:39] So it's all about being honest
[00:34:40] I think the reason we have loyalty
[00:34:42] the sense that the contract is broken
[00:34:44] is because neither side has revisited
[00:34:47] the terms of the contract
[00:34:48] and being honest about how this relationship
[00:34:51] is gonna work.
[00:34:52] Well I am very very glad
[00:34:54] that Johnny C Taylor Jr.
[00:34:56] is at the helm of Charm
[00:34:58] because you're leading hard conversations.
[00:35:00] It's a tough one.
[00:35:01] It is a tough one
[00:35:03] and it impacts everybody
[00:35:04] you know if we care about
[00:35:07] workers in the workplace
[00:35:09] then that pretty much impacts everybody
[00:35:11] I know and so you know
[00:35:14] just having open honest educated informed
[00:35:19] conversations about this
[00:35:21] that are driven by both values and data
[00:35:24] is going to make the workplace a better place
[00:35:26] not a perfect place but better
[00:35:29] and you know that's what I love
[00:35:30] about doing the work wire with you
[00:35:31] is we have the opportunity
[00:35:33] to unpack these things a little bit
[00:35:34] and hopefully cause people to think
[00:35:36] go back to their workplace
[00:35:38] and say hey I heard something
[00:35:39] I'd like to see how that fits here
[00:35:42] so for that I appreciate you
[00:35:43] so thank you.
[00:35:44] I want to thank you
[00:35:46] because I loved this conversation
[00:35:48] I tell you people walk up and say
[00:35:50] you always agree
[00:35:52] we're not disagreeing
[00:35:53] we just are the goal here
[00:35:55] is to make sure that
[00:35:56] our listening audience
[00:35:58] takes both
[00:35:59] or at least sometimes
[00:35:59] it's three or four different perspectives
[00:36:01] and you know it's just
[00:36:03] take the and say
[00:36:04] I hadn't thought about that before
[00:36:05] don't just listen to this
[00:36:07] for someone to agree with you
[00:36:08] because that's the whole problem
[00:36:09] I think in all of our conversations
[00:36:11] is people go to the media
[00:36:12] that is likely to tell them
[00:36:14] what they want to hear
[00:36:15] but I love about what you
[00:36:17] and this is your baby
[00:36:18] and I have to give credit to the man
[00:36:20] right the that
[00:36:22] this is a conversation
[00:36:23] we're going to give you both sides
[00:36:25] or maybe three or four sides
[00:36:26] of the conference
[00:36:27] and then walk away and say
[00:36:28] how can I be a better people manager
[00:36:31] hire an HR person
[00:36:33] like in my practice
[00:36:36] employees
[00:36:37] that's why you got me
[00:36:39] better employee
[00:36:40] like right ask myself
[00:36:42] I want loyalty from my employer
[00:36:44] am I willing to give that same level
[00:36:46] whatever the level is
[00:36:47] am I willing to give
[00:36:48] that same commitment
[00:36:50] and I got to say this
[00:36:51] before I go
[00:36:52] an employee came in
[00:36:53] told me they were going to leave
[00:36:54] for it was a really big job for him
[00:36:56] and I said that's great
[00:36:57] I understand it
[00:36:59] how would you have felt
[00:37:00] if I said well you know
[00:37:01] I've gotten to the point of my career
[00:37:02] where I wanted other experiences
[00:37:04] etc and I found this other place
[00:37:07] and I said so you've been interviewing
[00:37:08] you've been showing up to my meetings
[00:37:10] you've been at my house
[00:37:11] you've been going over
[00:37:11] you've done all these things with me
[00:37:13] and you were interviewing
[00:37:14] how would you have felt
[00:37:15] if I'd said you know
[00:37:17] Sally's been with us for 10 years
[00:37:19] I think I could find
[00:37:21] a different person out there
[00:37:22] and I was out interviewing
[00:37:24] you think everything's wonderful
[00:37:26] right and you found out
[00:37:27] that I was interviewing candidates
[00:37:29] to replace you
[00:37:31] how would you have felt
[00:37:33] and she just looked at me
[00:37:34] and I said yeah
[00:37:35] that's the problem with loyalty
[00:37:37] you want it from me
[00:37:38] you're not prepared to give it to me
[00:37:40] and that's the mutuality aspect
[00:37:43] of this and reciprocity
[00:37:44] like you were cheating on me
[00:37:47] and you'd be really pissed
[00:37:48] if you found out
[00:37:49] that I was out interviewing
[00:37:50] for it to replace you
[00:37:52] yeah so again
[00:37:55] all I can say is you're awesome
[00:37:56] I appreciate the
[00:37:59] just real thinking adult level
[00:38:02] conversation on hard topics
[00:38:04] and to get people to not just
[00:38:07] as you say kind of align
[00:38:09] with the one data feed
[00:38:10] that they get on something
[00:38:12] but to really kind of think
[00:38:13] you know I hadn't thought about
[00:38:14] that way Johnny that's true
[00:38:16] I think it kind of sucked
[00:38:17] when you fired me
[00:38:18] but I guess I fired you
[00:38:20] and I quit
[00:38:21] I never really framed it
[00:38:23] that way in my head
[00:38:24] so let's keep unpacking these topics
[00:38:26] this is awesome
[00:38:27] in the meantime
[00:38:28] you are the man
[00:38:29] I'm just having your presence
[00:38:31] everyone thank you so much
[00:38:32] for taking a few minutes out
[00:38:33] of your day to listen
[00:38:34] to John and I talk about
[00:38:36] a tough topic
[00:38:37] if you've got thoughts
[00:38:37] we'd love for you to email us
[00:38:39] I'm at bob at career.club
[00:38:41] Johnny's Johnny Taylor
[00:38:42] at sherm.org
[00:38:43] we'd love to hear your thoughts
[00:38:44] you can post on LinkedIn
[00:38:46] we just love to hear from you
[00:38:47] but we do appreciate you
[00:38:49] and thanks again
[00:38:49] for taking a few minutes
[00:38:50] of your day with us
[00:38:51] Johnny bless you
[00:38:53] thank you so much
[00:38:53] Thank you
[00:38:54] You're welcome
[00:38:55] Check out career.club
[00:38:56] for personalized help
[00:38:57] with your job search
[00:38:58] visit shrm.org
[00:39:00] to become part
[00:39:01] of the largest human resources organization
[00:39:03] worldwide
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