Followership - The Work Wire

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[00:00:31] Hello everybody.

[00:00:32] This is Bob Goodwin, president of Career Club.

[00:00:35] Welcome to another episode of The Work Wire where I'm joined by my good friend, the president

[00:00:39] and CEO of SHRM, Johnny C. Taylor Jr.

[00:00:42] Johnny, how are you doing?

[00:00:44] I'm doing really well, Bob.

[00:00:45] I'm always well when I'm going to be talking to you.

[00:00:47] So life is good.

[00:00:48] Life is good.

[00:00:49] I mean it.

[00:00:50] I mean it.

[00:00:51] No, no, no.

[00:00:52] It's great to see you.

[00:00:53] I know you've been super busy this past week and for listeners that were taking

[00:00:57] Johnny just got back from testifying before the Senate Armed Services Committee.

[00:01:02] Wow, very good.

[00:01:03] Very, very good.

[00:01:04] Thank you.

[00:01:05] You did a wonderful job today.

[00:01:08] We're actually going to build on a previous episode.

[00:01:10] So we had recently spoken with Shiv Shivakumar, who's an executive in India and just

[00:01:16] a tremendous thought leader on leadership.

[00:01:19] And one of the things that he brought up serendipitally was around followership.

[00:01:26] He shared a statistic that said he did a Google search on leadership and he got six

[00:01:30] point two billion.

[00:01:32] That's with a B hits on leadership.

[00:01:36] Clearly a popular title.

[00:01:38] Then he typed in followership and he got three million hits.

[00:01:43] I'm from Tennessee.

[00:01:44] My math skills are not that good.

[00:01:47] But if you do three million over six point two billion, that's point oh oh oh five.

[00:01:56] Yeah.

[00:01:57] That's a small number.

[00:01:58] People are not really thinking a lot about followership, certainly not to the extent

[00:02:03] that they're thinking about leadership and offline.

[00:02:06] You and I have talked.

[00:02:07] It's like, well, if there's no followers, then what is the leader really doing?

[00:02:12] And what does it mean to be a great follower?

[00:02:16] And it's not even a desirable thing to be.

[00:02:20] So I'll kind of tee it up to you there, Johnny.

[00:02:23] We talk a lot about leadership.

[00:02:25] We're going to unpack followership a little bit.

[00:02:27] Where's your mind go initially?

[00:02:29] So to what I was taught really, really early and I think all of us were by our parents.

[00:02:36] Don't be a follower like right.

[00:02:38] You're supposed to be a leader when you're trying to.

[00:02:40] I have a 13 year old daughter, as you know, and and you do everything that you

[00:02:45] can to encourage your children not to just be a follower.

[00:02:50] So no surprise, by the way, that they're only three million hits versus six point

[00:02:53] some odd billion hits on leadership, because from very early on, we teach folks

[00:02:59] the importance of being a leader.

[00:03:02] The fact of the matter is all of us can't be leaders like there's one CEO,

[00:03:06] there's one head coach, there's one this lead actor, whatever one department head.

[00:03:11] And so in some ways we are where we are because of what we have said

[00:03:19] and what we have promoted and taught and developed people to understand.

[00:03:23] And I find it fascinating.

[00:03:24] There are two things.

[00:03:25] So one is the observation that we are where we are because this is what we've emphasized.

[00:03:29] Right. The second thing is leaders have unfortunately not stopped and thought

[00:03:37] I am only leading because there are people following by definition.

[00:03:42] Like you cannot have one without the other.

[00:03:46] And I know we're going to spend some time.

[00:03:48] And during the conversation with Shiv, we talked about it in a world where there

[00:03:52] was vertical top down leadership that worked because people were forced to follow

[00:03:57] the person who was appointed, elected, whatever the king or queen in this new

[00:04:03] world, which is more of a horizontal world.

[00:04:08] You can't just be made the CEO.

[00:04:10] Frankly, you and I've talked about this as well.

[00:04:13] It's why CEO turnover is at an all time high because the board can't just say

[00:04:19] this is going to be your leader stick with it.

[00:04:20] And that person is going to be there for 30 years.

[00:04:22] And if you don't like it, leave.

[00:04:23] That's not the way it works anymore.

[00:04:25] Employees speak up different stakeholders, partners that you just can't

[00:04:31] lead the way you used to.

[00:04:33] So followership is something that we don't discuss and probably don't teach

[00:04:38] even in our leadership programs enough.

[00:04:42] And ultimately I believe going forward from a 21st century business environment,

[00:04:49] if we don't start to sensitize leaders to the importance of followership,

[00:04:55] this is they're going to continue to lose their jobs because the followers are

[00:04:59] quickly dethroning the leaders.

[00:05:02] The irony too is every leader is also a follower.

[00:05:06] You have to have an award, right?

[00:05:10] I have customers, I have clients and right.

[00:05:15] I mean, they can fire me at a moment's notice as well.

[00:05:18] And, but to the point about son, be a follower daughter, be a leader,

[00:05:25] don't be a follower like, you know, and don't do what the crowd is doing.

[00:05:28] Don't do it.

[00:05:29] Okay.

[00:05:30] There are really good qualities about that, right?

[00:05:33] In autonomy and, you know, sense of, you know, morally directing yourself.

[00:05:38] But at the same time within an organization in a team, not everybody

[00:05:43] can be the quarterback, right?

[00:05:46] And there are other roles on a team.

[00:05:49] They're extremely valuable.

[00:05:52] Maybe just not as visible.

[00:05:54] There's three qualities that I just wanted to kind of get you to kind

[00:05:58] of start riffing on here a little bit, John, and see if we can kind

[00:06:01] of build the theme out here a little bit, but it's, I was thinking about,

[00:06:04] you know, what are some of the character qualities of people who are great

[00:06:09] followers, three things that just sort of.

[00:06:13] Popped in my mind.

[00:06:15] One was humility.

[00:06:17] Yes, the ability to subjugate my ego to a greater cause than just me,

[00:06:25] which kind of relates to the next one, which is a level of selflessness.

[00:06:30] It's not actually all about me.

[00:06:33] And then the third piece, and I bet if we did a word cloud on the most

[00:06:38] common word that we use on the work wire is trust.

[00:06:42] There has to be mutual trust.

[00:06:45] And so humility, selflessness and trust.

[00:06:50] Where's that?

[00:06:50] Take your mind.

[00:06:52] Yeah, the humility.

[00:06:53] It's so funny.

[00:06:53] I didn't know where you're going to go, but humility was literally

[00:06:57] the first word that came to my mind.

[00:06:59] My first thought was like, yeah.

[00:07:01] And it's not, it's, it's not a fake humility because I've met some

[00:07:06] leaders who appear to be humble, but in their core of core, they're not.

[00:07:13] And listen, it's a challenge because leaders, and I said this to you

[00:07:17] several times, in fact, most recently with Shiv was people do rally

[00:07:22] behind decisive, fearless leaders who in the face of adversity, you step

[00:07:31] up and even if you have doubts, you can't message the doubts to your

[00:07:37] employees because at once they're looking for someone they know the

[00:07:39] world's falling apart.

[00:07:41] They need leadership.

[00:07:41] I was, I had the good fortune of interviewing George Bush in the

[00:07:45] front of 20,000 people.

[00:07:46] And I asked him, you know, here you are 9 11, you get the call.

[00:07:50] You're at the elementary school reading to the kids.

[00:07:52] What do you do?

[00:07:54] And he said, I must project calm.

[00:07:57] Those are the two words I will never forget.

[00:07:59] He said every leader.

[00:08:01] Well, in some ways that conflicts with humility, right?

[00:08:06] Because you're being told this is not the time to say, Oh my gosh, the

[00:08:11] rest of the world is attacking us.

[00:08:13] And no, no, you've got to say, and we will taunt them down.

[00:08:17] We will track them down.

[00:08:19] We're going to do what we do.

[00:08:20] Like this is what America's about.

[00:08:22] So I think the challenge is you've got to be, uh, you've got a project

[00:08:28] confidence and calm and leadership, but inside you acknowledge that

[00:08:34] you're vulnerable and that you're and the leader who can figure out how to

[00:08:38] do both of those things at once is going to be the successful leader.

[00:08:42] But it's, I don't know that I'd want to follow someone who is too humble.

[00:08:46] Right?

[00:08:46] That's not, that's not interesting either.

[00:08:48] No.

[00:08:48] I mean, how do you react to that?

[00:08:50] No.

[00:08:50] So well, I just, there's leaders who can exhibit true

[00:08:57] humility and then there are the followers who are humble enough to say,

[00:09:04] you know what, you know, that's a decision that's been made.

[00:09:08] I'm on this team.

[00:09:09] It isn't about me being right.

[00:09:11] It's about us collectively figuring out what is the best course forward.

[00:09:16] And so for me, you know, the humility on the part of the follower is,

[00:09:22] you know, not fighting for the steering wheel.

[00:09:26] All right.

[00:09:27] Right.

[00:09:28] And it's interesting at career club, you know, we're very big into emotional

[00:09:32] intelligence as I know that you are and whatever you hear you say, this

[00:09:36] is a great line, they're not soft skills or power skills.

[00:09:40] And, and so one of the instruments that we like is disc and it's kind

[00:09:46] of four, you know, communication styles.

[00:09:49] I think they're broader than just communication, but the top two, you

[00:09:53] know, with, with drivers and influencers, those tend to be the leader.

[00:09:58] Kinds of personality types, but then there's the S's and the C's

[00:10:02] and the S is like harmony.

[00:10:04] Like they're, they're excellent number two people.

[00:10:07] They're the glue that actually keeps an organization together.

[00:10:11] My wife doesn't want to be the leader.

[00:10:13] She likes being, you know, the person that drives harmony with the

[00:10:17] things, but she doesn't need to be the leader.

[00:10:19] And then the C's are people that are like way deep into the details.

[00:10:22] And again, they just want it to be right.

[00:10:24] They don't have to be the person in front.

[00:10:27] So, you know, I think, you know, one of the things that I would

[00:10:31] hope that we can start to foster a conversation on is, you know,

[00:10:37] acknowledging and recognizing great followers, like, like, like, you

[00:10:43] know, Bob, you know, or Brian or Susan, you are the glue that keeps us.

[00:10:48] Yeah, I'm the one that gets the headlines.

[00:10:51] You're the glue that actually keeps this whole thing going.

[00:10:53] And we don't have the successful company that we have, the

[00:10:57] successful organization that we have without you, your humility,

[00:11:02] your selflessness and your commitment to the organization.

[00:11:07] Well, and it's funny from an HR perspective, we've got to figure

[00:11:11] out how to reward followers, because part of the problem with

[00:11:17] the entire system is leaders make most money.

[00:11:20] And in the quarterback makes more money than the rest of the folks.

[00:11:23] And the coach makes a certain amount of money over the on coaches.

[00:11:27] Right?

[00:11:27] So head coach.

[00:11:28] So the systems don't encourage good followership, like, you know what I

[00:11:35] mean?

[00:11:35] And so we've got to take into consideration that everyone wants to do

[00:11:39] well financially and in their career, they want to be seen as a success with

[00:11:43] their children and family members, et cetera.

[00:11:46] So we've got to say it is OK to be a follower again, which is totally

[00:11:53] inconsistent with what most of us have told or hold or tell our

[00:11:55] children.

[00:11:56] And we've got to say there's actually so much value in that until we're

[00:12:01] going to pay you for that.

[00:12:02] We're going to reward you in some way.

[00:12:05] So you made me actually think about it.

[00:12:07] It's easy to say it, but how much where do we what in our reward systems say

[00:12:14] it's actually good for you to be a follower.

[00:12:16] And that's something that I think we as HR practitioners, those of you who

[00:12:19] are listening to the work wire, we should revisit if you want.

[00:12:23] What's that old line?

[00:12:24] That which gets rewarded gets repeated.

[00:12:27] So if you want people to be a follower, it's more than just talking

[00:12:31] about it.

[00:12:32] We've got to reward it.

[00:12:33] Yeah, I think that that's great.

[00:12:35] And there's financial capital and there's also social capital.

[00:12:40] Right.

[00:12:41] And so like you are our employee of the year.

[00:12:43] And here's why you're our associate, you know, teammate, whatever the

[00:12:48] vernacular is of the year.

[00:12:50] And here's why I think to be a little bit back to your point,

[00:12:54] because I was thinking the same thing.

[00:12:55] You know, our system rewards leaders.

[00:12:58] You make the most money.

[00:12:59] You've also and you've talked about this in previous episodes.

[00:13:02] You've also got the most responsibility.

[00:13:04] So it cuts both ways.

[00:13:07] But but the leadership team is responsible for setting the strategy,

[00:13:13] making thoughtful choices to direct the business.

[00:13:16] But it's upon the followers to execute against that strategy.

[00:13:21] And are we measuring the things and rewarding the things that help

[00:13:25] the strategy get done?

[00:13:27] And if we are, then we've probably got a pretty good system.

[00:13:31] The other thing I want to say just very quickly on rewarding people is

[00:13:37] also not punishing people, because what I mean by that in this, this is

[00:13:42] going back to our conversation with Shiv.

[00:13:44] So apologies for these frequent references, but I guess you need to

[00:13:47] go listen to that episode, but is the intellectual honesty.

[00:13:51] So if I'm a great follower, a really great follower, I can go to you,

[00:13:57] Johnny and say what you said, what you did.

[00:14:02] I, I'm not.

[00:14:06] That you wanted, I want to tell you how that actually landed.

[00:14:09] Right.

[00:14:09] Right.

[00:14:10] Or whatever, but, but you know, truly the organization's best interest

[00:14:15] and the mutual trust going back to that idea that I can tell you the

[00:14:19] truth as I see it and not be punished for it.

[00:14:23] Otherwise I'm just going to go in a corner and say to heck with it.

[00:14:26] That's right.

[00:14:27] The opposite of rewarding, but it also goes to your second point.

[00:14:29] So you talked about humility, but selflessness, you know, the, the,

[00:14:34] the way that you operationalize what you just described is if it's all

[00:14:39] about you as a leader, if it is always all about you, you're always right.

[00:14:44] And you're not doing this for the good.

[00:14:47] You know, I often am confronted with that as, as a leader of sherm.

[00:14:52] Sure.

[00:14:53] I go give testimony.

[00:14:54] So everyone's buzzing Johnny Taylor was before the US armed

[00:14:56] services committee, et cetera.

[00:14:58] But you know why I did that?

[00:14:59] Not for my, you know, glory, but because our elected officials need to

[00:15:05] know that you protect this homeland one individual at a time at a time.

[00:15:10] It takes all of those 700,000 military folks and 1.4 million,

[00:15:16] you know, whatever the numbers are millions of people, individual

[00:15:19] followers, because yes, you have generals and admirals and all of that.

[00:15:23] But ultimately the person who is putting their lives on the, on the line

[00:15:27] and going in and protecting this homeland are people.

[00:15:31] So, but in the process of doing it, if it becomes all about the leader,

[00:15:36] yes, the leader is going to get the attention.

[00:15:38] I say that to my folks all the time, the number of times when Congress

[00:15:42] didn't call and ask for my smartest governmental affairs person

[00:15:46] to come and give testimony.

[00:15:49] That's just not how it works.

[00:15:50] They want the leader to make the statement.

[00:15:53] But what I have to do, and I think I do decently and I'm hoping leaders,

[00:15:57] if I, I want to get better at it too, by the way, is be reminded.

[00:16:01] So I bring my support staff with me and say, Hey guys, I'm just a talking head.

[00:16:07] You prepped me.

[00:16:08] You researched me.

[00:16:09] You told me what the issues were, what the, what mine's not to step on,

[00:16:14] et cetera, hard to you don't want to use that context in the department of

[00:16:17] defense context, but, and recognize those people, show them love,

[00:16:21] shower the attention.

[00:16:23] At the end of the day, I can't put them on that seat in the front of those

[00:16:27] members of the U S Senate, because that's not who they want to hear from.

[00:16:30] But I self-list as you use your term selflessness.

[00:16:35] I've got to make it really clear to my team that I'm the talking

[00:16:39] head, but you are the reason we are here.

[00:16:42] If you do that and if you do that from an honest space, not just,

[00:16:46] you know, the talking point people are my most important asset, but if you

[00:16:49] genuinely communicate to your employees that you matter.

[00:16:53] And then I just have to go out here and be the front people will follow you.

[00:16:58] Yes.

[00:16:58] And so you, you, you raised a topic a minute ago about, you know, how a

[00:17:04] leader can also demonstrate humility while not kind of inadvertently going

[00:17:09] into weakness because nobody wants to follow a weak leader.

[00:17:13] I think your idea of you having enough confidence to be able to hear

[00:17:18] the truth and me having enough trust in you that I can tell you the truth.

[00:17:24] Right.

[00:17:25] That's a healthy organization.

[00:17:28] Right.

[00:17:28] And even, I mean, this is what I love about even how we talk

[00:17:31] about stuff is like, I'm not just agreeing on every point.

[00:17:34] You're not agreeing on every point.

[00:17:35] It's like, well, yeah, but also, and so it's the humility to be open

[00:17:43] to maybe a way of seeing something that you didn't understand or recognize.

[00:17:49] I think it's an amazing quality in the leader, but that also requires

[00:17:53] trust that I am not going to be penalized for telling you the

[00:17:57] truth in a respectful way.

[00:17:59] That's right.

[00:18:00] And, and again, and I can say this from the hat of the leader.

[00:18:04] We need our followers to recognize that we too are human beings.

[00:18:08] We're not infallible.

[00:18:10] So just as you need to, I have to give you right.

[00:18:14] A culture and environment where you feel like it's okay to tell me respectfully.

[00:18:20] It's not okay to be uncivil.

[00:18:22] You know, we talk a lot about civility this year at Charm.

[00:18:25] It's not okay to be uncivil, disrespectful.

[00:18:28] One, imagine working for the president of the United States and you hear that

[00:18:34] person that the leader of the world or essentially the leader of the United

[00:18:39] States say something wrong.

[00:18:42] You're supposed to figure out how to let him know, Mr.

[00:18:46] President, that's not quite right, but I wouldn't put them on blast in the

[00:18:50] front of, you know, other world leaders.

[00:18:52] That's not the way to get it done.

[00:18:54] So followers also have to be mindful of how important it is for your

[00:18:58] leader to be respected by other leaders.

[00:19:01] And so when and how you bring the mistake, the shortcoming

[00:19:09] to our attention is as important.

[00:19:11] And that's what followers, since we're talking about followership today, I

[00:19:14] don't want to get too adrift on because we've already said, they talk a

[00:19:16] lot about leadership, but followers have to be very thoughtful about how

[00:19:21] they also bring it to our attention.

[00:19:23] I was at a, Oh, observed a CEO.

[00:19:27] I won't name the company who met with their employees and the

[00:19:31] employees just went in and attacked the CEO.

[00:19:35] And at the end of the open forum, the CEO was just taking the hits and

[00:19:41] taking the hits thinking that it said, I'm showing you that I'm vulnerable.

[00:19:46] I'm humble.

[00:19:47] I'm this assistant.

[00:19:48] No, no, no.

[00:19:49] One never disrespects the position.

[00:19:52] I was, you know, I took Air Force ROTC.

[00:19:55] You always respect the position.

[00:19:58] Right.

[00:19:59] And, and that's what can happen is sometimes I think there's an

[00:20:03] overcorrection and the followers think I can say anything to you, how I want to

[00:20:07] say it, when I want to say it, where I want to say it in the name of

[00:20:11] transparency and, and that's not cool either.

[00:20:15] That's not good followership.

[00:20:18] Yeah.

[00:20:18] We talk a lot about respect civility.

[00:20:22] Like that has to be the stage for honest discussion to be happening.

[00:20:28] Otherwise it's just mean spirited and selfish.

[00:20:32] I just want to say what I want to say.

[00:20:33] I don't care how you receive it.

[00:20:34] That's your problem.

[00:20:36] That's the opposite of selflessness.

[00:20:39] That's right.

[00:20:39] Right.

[00:20:40] No, 1000.

[00:20:43] From your, where you sit, Johnny, what else can this is going to sound

[00:20:47] kind of weird as it comes out, but what else can leaders be doing to

[00:20:51] foster a culture of trust?

[00:20:55] Wow.

[00:20:56] So that's, we need a whole nother conversation on that, but I'm going

[00:20:59] to give you the two things that, that again, I'm talking about ship again,

[00:21:03] but we've got to communicate better.

[00:21:05] Bottom line is in the absence of good communication, verbal and written,

[00:21:12] your employees don't know what you really believe.

[00:21:15] They don't know what you think.

[00:21:17] They don't know the strategy.

[00:21:19] They don't understand that the layoffs were intentional.

[00:21:22] Um, you know, necessary evil that we needed to protect.

[00:21:26] We needed to lay off 10% of the workforce to protect 90% that we needed to do

[00:21:31] this X we are notoriously not good communicators and, and I own that as a

[00:21:38] leader at something that I try to focus on a lot.

[00:21:41] It's really hard to get people to rally behind you if they don't

[00:21:44] exactly know where you're going and just go it in your head.

[00:21:49] Like you're too often really smart people and leaders like they know

[00:21:52] what they're doing in their head, but that's not okay, particularly

[00:21:55] in a workforce where people voluntarily show up every day.

[00:21:58] That was another shift comments.

[00:22:00] Like you've got to think about your employees as volunteers and if you

[00:22:04] don't and you think somehow you control them and they will do that

[00:22:07] because you said, do it when you said then you're going to fail over

[00:22:11] the long run and perhaps in the short run.

[00:22:12] So I would say that's a big opportunity for leaders as we think about

[00:22:16] followership is we've got to communicate if we want people to embrace followership.

[00:22:22] The second thing I mentioned obviously is rewarding them.

[00:22:25] We've got to come up with ways to reward financially and otherwise

[00:22:29] recognition in ways celebrating people who are really good followers so that

[00:22:35] we, we helped shift the narrative away from everyone should be the leader.

[00:22:40] Cause they can only be one ultimately.

[00:22:42] And at a certain level, the CEO or the president or the executive

[00:22:46] director, whatever you want to call it.

[00:22:47] And so we've got to figure out how to cascade.

[00:22:49] I think the third thing that I think about a lot is, and it's,

[00:22:54] it's, it's, it's in this concept of if you want, I don't know how to,

[00:22:59] I don't know what the right term is, but if you want people, if

[00:23:05] followership, so I'm going to focus on followers.

[00:23:07] If you want your leader to be vulnerable, then you have to give them

[00:23:12] the space to be vulnerable.

[00:23:15] Right?

[00:23:16] And so that's odd because the leader followers are like, no, no,

[00:23:19] we've got to give it to the leader.

[00:23:20] No, the leader, what you need to give your leader is the space to be

[00:23:24] able to pull you together and say, you know what?

[00:23:26] I don't know what the future is.

[00:23:28] We talked about VUCA.

[00:23:30] Yeah.

[00:23:30] It is absolutely a VUCA world.

[00:23:33] And the reality is I'm guessing too.

[00:23:36] When I was a lawyer, when I practiced law, we would always say,

[00:23:40] we are called practitioners because we can't guarantee the result.

[00:23:44] Like we're practicing law.

[00:23:46] And by definition, if you're practicing, sometimes you're going to be wrong.

[00:23:49] Yes.

[00:23:49] We leaders need permission from our followers to be able to be wrong.

[00:23:55] So, so we're thank you for saying that because where that has been taking

[00:24:00] my mind is to be a great follower is to assume good intent.

[00:24:05] Right?

[00:24:07] Yes.

[00:24:07] Assume good intent.

[00:24:09] If you're working, I'll just say this straight up to anybody who's

[00:24:12] listening or watching this right now.

[00:24:14] If you're working at a place where you cannot assume good intent on the

[00:24:19] part of your employer, I can't tell you strongly enough, go find another place to work.

[00:24:24] Like if you cannot assume that is the definition of distrust, that I do not

[00:24:31] believe that their intentions are good.

[00:24:35] That's a problem.

[00:24:36] If I do believe that their intentions are good, then I do think that that

[00:24:40] creates the right environment for the leader to say, I don't know.

[00:24:47] Or I thought this was right.

[00:24:49] It didn't work out.

[00:24:50] We thought as a leadership team, we keep kind of individualizing leaders as a group.

[00:24:54] We thought this was the right direction or the right innovation or the right

[00:24:59] move to partnership to go take on.

[00:25:02] It didn't work out the way that we thought that it was going to work out.

[00:25:05] And they're not crucified for it by the followers, but recognition,

[00:25:11] everybody's doing the best they know how.

[00:25:13] And in some cases, to your point on VUCA, the best they don't know how.

[00:25:18] Which is more likely in this world that we live in to be the case where all who

[00:25:23] would have thunk three years ago that there'd be this thing called AI and

[00:25:29] that it would lead to the level of displacement of roles and just a total

[00:25:35] shift in the workforce.

[00:25:36] And it's just none of us.

[00:25:38] I never, I was actually talking to a friend of mine who's let's just say a

[00:25:43] day over 40 and saying, I never grew up.

[00:25:47] Bob, you tell me in my wildest imagination, my wildest dreams.

[00:25:53] I watched George Jetson.

[00:25:55] Do you remember that? Right.

[00:25:57] His like, I never thought that in my hand, I would have all of the

[00:26:03] computing power of like, it's just unimaginable.

[00:26:06] Or I was riding down the street with my daughter and thinking, I don't have

[00:26:11] to know where I'm going at all.

[00:26:13] I'm going to type the address in.

[00:26:15] Worse yet, all I got to do is type in the name of the organization.

[00:26:18] The first few letters of a restaurant.

[00:26:21] It knows where I am.

[00:26:22] It populates.

[00:26:23] And it says, this is how you get there.

[00:26:24] I don't have to think about a map or anything.

[00:26:29] This happened in the last decade, my friends, not 50 years, like the decade.

[00:26:35] So you're asking leaders, followers.

[00:26:40] You all are asking us to kind of know what the world's going to look like

[00:26:44] five years from now, you're not sure what it's going to look like a year

[00:26:47] from now, it's just too many unknowns.

[00:26:50] I want to, and I know we need to wrap up here very, very quickly.

[00:26:54] There's just one point that you're making.

[00:26:56] Cause I was thinking about like, I'm the world's worst.

[00:26:59] Uh, Google just tell me where to go.

[00:27:01] And okay.

[00:27:02] Then like you end up in an alley.

[00:27:04] Dude, blind followership is not good either.

[00:27:10] Okay.

[00:27:11] And so the, the making sure does this organization and where they're

[00:27:16] trying to lead it, does it align with my values?

[00:27:20] Is this a culture that I can truly give my best to that I can get behind

[00:27:25] the purpose of either, you know, the, the, the culture, the customers we serve

[00:27:31] the product that we make, like, can I genuinely as a human being, not just

[00:27:35] a work producing unit get behind this, then I'm going to be a really good

[00:27:41] follower and I'm going to contribute to the success of the company or

[00:27:46] consumers and the leaders.

[00:27:49] Then that should be pretty fulfilling for a lot of people, particularly

[00:27:53] for those who do not actually aspire to lead your roles.

[00:27:57] Great salesperson doesn't necessarily want to be the sales manager.

[00:28:01] I love being an individual contributor.

[00:28:04] Like I don't want adult daycare and taking care of my own thing.

[00:28:10] But, but my point being is that to be a great follower, you need to,

[00:28:16] to really make sure that the company that you're at, the organization

[00:28:19] you're a part of aligns with your personal values.

[00:28:23] If that is true enough, because nowhere is perfect.

[00:28:27] Right.

[00:28:27] If that is true enough, then you've got a great chance to be in a great follower.

[00:28:32] I want to do some more thinking Johnny with you on how to re-engineer

[00:28:37] the reward system so that just because I've got a VP title and you've

[00:28:41] got a senior manager title, senior manager can make more than the VP.

[00:28:46] Yep.

[00:28:47] Happens a lot, you know, because of how they contribute and their

[00:28:51] role as a follower, not just their title all day.

[00:28:55] We know individual contributors can be, can be paid for being great.

[00:28:58] And it goes back to our seminal point here.

[00:29:02] Everyone can't be a leader, but everyone wants to do well in

[00:29:06] their career and make more money.

[00:29:08] So we've got to develop developed systems that say it's okay to be

[00:29:12] a follower for the next 30 years.

[00:29:14] You don't have to aspire to be in the C-suite than that.

[00:29:17] The other thing that you said is, and I love that point about, you

[00:29:20] know, am I aligned with that culture?

[00:29:22] And I think you said most of the time or generally, or how have you qualified?

[00:29:25] It was great because you're right.

[00:29:27] You'll never always be 100%.

[00:29:29] But this is now the pressure back on the onus is on leaders.

[00:29:33] You can't expect people to make that determination if you've not

[00:29:37] articulated your culture, if you've not articulated the values, right?

[00:29:42] Every employee won't agree with them.

[00:29:43] And some people will choose not to work with you because they don't agree

[00:29:47] with it, but if you don't tell them, you're asking them to make a

[00:29:50] decision without the input.

[00:29:52] So communication once again, is critical for leaders and then followers.

[00:29:56] You all have to give us feedback if we're not making it clear enough.

[00:29:59] If our communication is not effective and it's by definition not effective,

[00:30:02] if you don't understand it, then that's the work for both sides.

[00:30:06] So I think leaders and followers should have a great relationship.

[00:30:09] Symbiotic.

[00:30:10] You can't live without the other.

[00:30:12] And if we do this right, our organizations will thrive.

[00:30:15] Cannot say it better.

[00:30:16] So I'm going to go ahead and wrap us up with that, Johnny.

[00:30:19] That was an excellent summation.

[00:30:20] So thank you for listeners and viewers.

[00:30:23] If you've got thoughts on this, this is obviously a very

[00:30:26] wide open kind of a topic.

[00:30:28] And what works well for you as a follower where you've seen that work

[00:30:31] well in organizations or not work well, but we'd love to hear from you.

[00:30:35] So you're welcome to email me at bobbikcareer.club.

[00:30:39] Would love to get your thoughts.

[00:30:40] In the meantime, we thank you so much for investing a few

[00:30:42] minutes out of your day today.

[00:30:44] And Johnny, thank you again for everything that you shared with us.

[00:30:46] Thanks so much.

[00:30:47] Thank you everyone.

[00:30:48] Be well.

[00:30:49] Work well, come on.

[00:30:50] Bye bye.

[00:30:51] Check out career.club for personalized help with your job search.

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