Candidate Experience - The Work Wire

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[00:00:30] Welcome everybody to another episode of The Work Wire. I'm Bob Goodwin, the founder of Career

[00:00:36] Club joined by my good friend, the CEO and president of SHRM, Johnny C. Taylor Jr. Johnny,

[00:00:41] how are you my friend? Hey Bob and happy new year my friend. Happy new year to you as well.

[00:00:48] Quiet at 2023 and it looks like 2024 is not going to give us any shortage of topics for

[00:00:53] the work. I think we're in a topic rich environment for better or for worse, yes?

[00:01:03] That's right. So today's topic, I'm going to kind of just jump into it because

[00:01:08] like something that's very near and dear to my heart, you know at Career Club we work a lot

[00:01:12] with individual job seekers as well as people that are coming to us via

[00:01:17] out placement services that we provide and so we've got, you know our clients are active job

[00:01:24] seekers. So I'm very sensitized to what their experiences are and what I was hoping we could

[00:01:30] talk about today is under the broad headline of candidate experience and you know from where

[00:01:37] I sit and I know that you're going to have a different point of view which I'm very much

[00:01:40] looking forward to is if the candidate experience leaves something to be desired,

[00:01:46] you know we'll talk a lot about ghosting just how long things take, the length of interview cycles,

[00:01:54] all that kind of stuff and yet on the other side you know I know that we'll talk about

[00:01:59] HR talent acquisition professionals are doing the best they can with the staffs that they

[00:02:03] have to work with but I just wanted to share you know a couple of things here. There's an

[00:02:11] organization called Talent Board, Johnny that as you may be familiar with a little bit newer to me

[00:02:17] and they actually have been measuring over time via surveys with about 200 companies,

[00:02:22] candidate experience and basically using the net promoter score methodology and what's kind

[00:02:29] of cool is they also do it as candidates go through the talent acquisition process from being

[00:02:36] screened to interviewed to offer to hired and how they're you know basically their net promoter

[00:02:43] score kind of changes or what's it look like at different stages. It's also interesting and I

[00:02:48] know we'll talk about this that the scores vary by region of the world so I'll probably quote

[00:02:57] some North American numbers and know that they don't look the same around the world okay but

[00:03:03] they have awards they call them candy C&E so I guess their little word for that is candy awards

[00:03:09] and in 2022 in 2022 they've got a score which is basically a negative net promoter score that

[00:03:18] they term resentment and in North America it's up 50% since 2020 so and not small numbers so from 8%

[00:03:28] to 12% which would be a 50% increase using my Tennessee math but even talking about you know how

[00:03:35] likely would you be to reapply to this company the scores are down how likely would you be

[00:03:42] to refer this company to a friend of yours who was thinking about applying down so there's there's

[00:03:49] just a lot and so I guess I want to start at the start candidate experience how would you

[00:03:56] describe that and what does that mean to to you and to the organization that you serve.

[00:04:03] Right so you know I'm going to say it in the context of we think at SHRM a lot about

[00:04:10] internal customers and external customers but they're all customers which is why I love what

[00:04:15] Talon or does and the use of the sort of the MPS. Now I don't know all the details about how they

[00:04:20] apply to their context in their context but what I will say is the notion that these folks who come

[00:04:27] in for interviews should and and to interact with your organization to look for employment

[00:04:32] opportunities should be thought of as customers your employees are customers but here's a real

[00:04:39] irony to it all Bob even if someone doesn't get the job at company A they actually could still be

[00:04:45] your external customer they could be a consumer so employers have an obligation I think and it

[00:04:51] six checks actually in our best interest to treat people as well as you can during the interview

[00:04:58] process now you may ask why do I say as well as you can because the reality is if you see a

[00:05:02] thousand people for one job 999 people are not going to be happy with it and some percentage of them

[00:05:09] hopefully a small number will have you know will have legitimate concerns but our data will tell you

[00:05:16] it's amazing how people feel how differently they feel about a company something you know the ideal

[00:05:23] job the perfect company etc until they're rejected yes and no matter how you do it like there's

[00:05:29] no easy way to say like this isn't a match you often have a negative or bitter taste in your

[00:05:37] mouth and I think if we're all being honest that's it no one likes to be rejected and especially when

[00:05:44] you put a ton of time which I know you're going to talk about a lot of effort and research and

[00:05:48] preparing when someone says you're not good enough or there was someone better than you no

[00:05:54] matter how beautifully they word it that's not an acceptable answer for some people and it leaves

[00:06:01] them with some sense of resentment so you know the talent board work is critically important

[00:06:06] I think that we have to make sure I love the fact that they do it at different points

[00:06:10] because a person who loved you and said had a great first interview may by the end of it

[00:06:14] think you're horrible and who knows what the real answer is maybe because you know

[00:06:20] but it is a real issue for us mostly because our employer brands matter more and more if someone

[00:06:28] goes out has negative experience they go out and trash on social media you could have other

[00:06:34] candidates or potential candidates decide not to interview with you based upon what that person

[00:06:38] says is sort of a yelp review and the chance that you may lose that customer that potential

[00:06:43] talent right and as I pointed out the outset there's the other side of this which is

[00:06:48] if I go interview for a job at Walmart and I have a horrible experience I may also no longer be a

[00:06:53] Walmart customer because of that horrible experience and I may tell others about that and

[00:06:59] you customers so there's both a true commercial externally commercial reason to be sensitized

[00:07:04] to this and do this right and there's also part of your employer brand to your internal

[00:07:09] customers you want to treat people right so that you have a solid reputation when you're

[00:07:14] going to market for talent no so so picking up on your as all made points it doesn't feel good

[00:07:27] and you know you've got people that you know are in between jobs so they're sort of already in the

[00:07:32] kind of a bubble of rejection and then should be subjected to more you know doesn't feel good

[00:07:38] the the analogy and you're the king of empathy like I mean I know that's like very very very high

[00:07:44] with you these are human beings right these aren't just work producing units or not cells on a

[00:07:50] spreadsheet they're not just counts in an ATS you know to calculate conversion rates against

[00:07:55] or whatever so these are real people and to be empathetic and what would it feel like

[00:08:01] to be on the receiving end if we wish you all the best in your future endeavors

[00:08:05] if you even got that but the analogy that I use is like you fly a lot so if the airline loses your

[00:08:12] luggage nobody wants their luggage to be lost but if Delta over delivered and like immediately was

[00:08:20] on the phone with you and said Mr. Taylor I'm really sorry there's been a mix up but you know

[00:08:24] here's a hundred dollar voucher and we're going to do this and do that for you because we want

[00:08:28] to make sure that you're as well as you can be in a situation you don't want to be in

[00:08:34] right then I think and it's done you know with authenticity you know not just like kind of

[00:08:40] hey here's 10 cents good luck but something like the I'm not talking about money in this case I'm

[00:08:44] just making an analogy that if if there was something that was a more empathetic approach

[00:08:51] and maybe even kind of geared to how far into the interview process did somebody get

[00:08:56] right if I'm being declined you know just by the ATS that's one level of engagement if I made it to

[00:09:05] the finalists for a VP role and I put in a ton of work like getting the same rejection letter if

[00:09:11] I wish you all the best in your future endeavors that doesn't feel appropriate to me

[00:09:16] and it certainly doesn't feel very empathetic to where that person might be coming from

[00:09:22] so I could not agree with you more the question is what would be enough and I'll give you a personal

[00:09:29] example I interviewed a candidate I interviewed three finalists for a role not here at Sherm

[00:09:34] but in another organization which I worked as a hiring manager and at the end of it I interviewed

[00:09:40] three one person got it the other two didn't one of the candidates and I mean I was I had

[00:09:46] done lunch with them because this was a high-level position and I wanted to spend time with them

[00:09:51] one of the two candidates who was not successful in getting the job right still a very great

[00:09:58] candidate I called I personally explained that we went with another candidate I'm telling you

[00:10:05] it couldn't have been 12 seconds into it well what did she have that I didn't have

[00:10:10] and can you tell me why and by the way let me tell you about the interview that I had with

[00:10:14] that person on your team who I did and it just became this full gripe session I was like time out

[00:10:20] one I don't have time to coach you for your next job like respectfully I don't have that kind of

[00:10:27] time like and we know that and you've been in talent acquisition long enough you got the hiring

[00:10:32] manager looking for the next job to be filled right so I want to give you the right level

[00:10:37] of respect I want to take you through it and explain but there are things I can't talk

[00:10:42] about like I can't tell you of the three people who interviewed you this person didn't like you and

[00:10:46] let me tell you exactly what they said I mean there are people who have those sorts of expectations

[00:10:52] otherwise they don't think they were given a fair shot so I would just say empathy on both sides

[00:10:57] yeah okay no I talked about this idea of empathy oftentimes Dr. Alex Alonzo our chief knowledge

[00:11:05] officer talks about me but the me but the a lot which is the idea that I want empathy but I

[00:11:11] don't want to right and so there's no there is a talent acquisition person sitting on the other side

[00:11:19] who has 20 or 30 requisitions to fill and they are kind enough to call you back and bring you in

[00:11:26] the loop and tell you unfortunately you didn't get it da da da but if you want to spend an hour

[00:11:31] relitigating if you will that decision it's not a good use of their time yeah it's just

[00:11:37] productive for anyone because you're not going to get the job and they are now going to lose

[00:11:41] productivity and so it's a bad bad so I just I throw it out there not to defend not giving

[00:11:47] people and seeing them as humans you know I'm very very high impact but to say empathy goes both

[00:11:53] ways when you're hiring at the rates that you are these days and that we've been for the last

[00:11:58] three years in a post pandemic world and frankly before the pandemic if you remember we've had

[00:12:03] ultra low unemployment there's a lot of pressure on the talent acquisition people to keep this machine

[00:12:08] going so I want to compliment you first of all Johnny because the fact that you took the time

[00:12:13] to personally call this person and irrespective of how they responded to it you did the right

[00:12:19] thing so kind of as much as it depends on you be it be it you did the right thing right

[00:12:25] how they receive that is kind of on them what we're seeing some progressive companies do

[00:12:31] is rather than just send out a flat you know we wish you all the best in your future endeavors

[00:12:37] that's so 80 right no it's so 2024 or unfortunately but um but it's is

[00:12:47] is getting creative like with providing some job search resources like we know this is hard

[00:12:54] we know this isn't the news that you wanted to hear we want to be a help to you as you

[00:13:01] move forward in your continued job search so here's some resources we think might be helpful

[00:13:05] to you they're free you have a nice day it's something right it's something that acknowledges

[00:13:10] in the words we know this isn't what you wanted to hear and rather than kind of

[00:13:19] having a helpful you know as you move forward you're right the company has got to be able to

[00:13:24] balance you know offering a little bit more to somebody with just highly limited resources

[00:13:32] volumes of candidates that they're trying to you know get placed into roles you know and in that

[00:13:38] and then do what their main job is and ta but at the same time i believe there is a great

[00:13:44] opportunity for companies that really want to build a long-term relationship with candidates

[00:13:52] who really do care about their employer brand to think about and how can they be creative in

[00:13:58] building a longer-term relationship because the reality is these people are going to end up

[00:14:03] likely either as customers like in your walmart example and i've seen calculators that say hey

[00:14:09] you know if you piss off this amount of people that you reject this percentage of people is

[00:14:14] going to stop shopping you and if their annual spend is x for lifetime value of poor treatment

[00:14:20] is not small dollars it's worth it you're gonna get an ROI

[00:14:27] but um the the other idea before you leave they're gonna likely end up good good don't

[00:14:35] don't use my idea because i'm likely to do that i just wanted to make the point you

[00:14:43] you know i because i sometimes i listen in arrears if you will you you're spot on that there is a

[00:14:51] better way my point was not to suggest that there's nothing that we can do as employers you're right

[00:14:57] these smart companies the ones that have really cutting edge hr and talent acquisition processes

[00:15:04] and practices understand there's something between just a dear john or dear jane letter and you know

[00:15:12] especially as you point out the more time that someone has invested in getting to know you so

[00:15:17] if they're an interview number three and you simply shoot one of those letters out shame on you

[00:15:22] that really is kind of the dated approach and it does i believe have commercial implications

[00:15:28] for people because many of these people are consumers or can influence the consumer who will

[00:15:34] ultimately be your customer so so i got that but i i didn't want to make short shift of it by saying

[00:15:40] listen the reality is you know people have to get over it i wasn't indicating that i understand

[00:15:46] that i understand now people who are listening didn't know that what i am saying though is that

[00:15:52] time is a factor and the other one that i just think is always is we always and i know you

[00:15:57] know i'm a lawyer of our training and so i hate to default to the legal issues but you know the reality

[00:16:03] is the more you start telling people about why they didn't get the job the more you run the risk of

[00:16:08] getting dragged into some agencies some court some something's hair so there's also a practical side

[00:16:17] that if i turn down 100 people for the job and i gave the white male candidate a fuller

[00:16:24] explanation than i gave the black female candidate who didn't get the job will i ultimately get dragged

[00:16:30] into this it's not a reason to be clear i'm not saying that's not a reason not to but it's just

[00:16:36] it's not as simple as you know spending as much time as you want with everyone because if you

[00:16:42] aren't prepared to give this level of response and empathy toward one then you can't and to all

[00:16:49] then you shouldn't give it to one because this gets really really messy and the ta people are concerned

[00:16:55] about the time they're also concerned about the legal highly litigious environment that we have

[00:17:00] in the state yeah so one of the things that we coach our clients are for anybody who's listening

[00:17:06] is in an interview because to your exact point once that door closes that zoom window closes

[00:17:13] you're highly unlikely to get real feedback for every reason you just said so we really encourage

[00:17:20] people you know as the interview is starting to wind down john i've really enjoyed our time together

[00:17:25] thank you so much based on everything you've heard so far you know what gives you the most

[00:17:29] confidence that i might be a good fit for the show bob you've got this you got that and you

[00:17:32] got the other thing and i guess on the other side of johnny are there any concerns that you've

[00:17:36] got about my ability to be well bob kind of wish you had more automotive experience i think that's

[00:17:41] you know going to be kind of important but again i think you're a great candidate you are never going

[00:17:45] to get that feedback once that door shuts so for our candidates we really encourage you to ask those

[00:17:53] questions because it could be a miscommunication no no i've got automotive experience i'm so sorry

[00:17:58] i i i completely omitted my time at ford oh i didn't know that or you know to help kind of

[00:18:07] based on you know kind of the things that you like and the the industry experience johnny

[00:18:13] how would you kind of stack rank those oh you just add i don't think the automotive is that

[00:18:17] important i think you've got amazing skills and what we need so i think you're super

[00:18:22] strong candidate at least you know and and that's what i think for candidates clarity is giant

[00:18:30] and bob to that point giving the talent acquisition or the hiring patent manager whoever

[00:18:37] delivers the message that you didn't get the job giving them permission to to be ended that's why

[00:18:44] i love i hadn't thought about that but i love the idea of saying to someone tell me you know

[00:18:51] like you said at the end of the interview tell me about what went well and what gives you pause

[00:18:56] and i think you'd go a step further and say and i really want you to be honest because whether or

[00:19:00] not i get this job or not i'm going to be interviewing for a role elsewhere so anything that you can

[00:19:05] tell me mr. ms hiring manager or a talent acquisition professional i will consider that a gift giving

[00:19:13] that person permission to be honest with you will go a long way and i hope you encourage and

[00:19:19] everyone listening none of us want a derivative ad no one there's nothing better than delivering

[00:19:24] the great news you got the job all hands are raised because everyone wants to make the offer

[00:19:28] no one wants to have their rejection calls so you have to make us feel pretty decently about going

[00:19:34] through the process because i believe net net the feedback is a gift even if it's not feedback

[00:19:39] that you actually want to hear at the time yeah so i want to move on to just a couple other

[00:19:45] and not small points in this whole kind of recruiting process because it is part of the

[00:19:49] candidate experience is a couple things one is when a work product is being requested so i need you

[00:19:59] to like you know do a mock sales call for me i need you to do a presentation for me like like you

[00:20:05] need to produce some work candidate yep and then separate but related is eight rounds of interviews

[00:20:16] and like can anybody like here make a decision like like what's going on here so we just find

[00:20:23] you know again i'm very candidate centric in my job that candidates really feel like they're being

[00:20:28] put through the mill without kind of an equal level of i don't know what commitment to something

[00:20:37] as we go deeper in the process so you're asking a lot from me but i'm incrementally not getting

[00:20:43] more from you and then i'm likely just going to get the dear john dear jane letter at the end of it

[00:20:50] and it just feels it feels just really out of alignment so challenge and this is what i'm so glad

[00:20:57] you brought up and i hope the people out there don't like throw rotten tomatoes through the screen but

[00:21:04] i think it's totally not accurate to say i'm doing all of this and you're doing nothing

[00:21:09] let me tell you if i give you eight interviews of my highly-paid executives time trust me i'm investing

[00:21:16] a lot in you you may not see it but and i get it proportionately you may say listen it's a lot of

[00:21:23] my time but at the end of the day if you are the more interviews you are getting internally

[00:21:29] frankly a lot of times not i understand is over process right but a lot of times what we're doing

[00:21:35] is the most important decision a hiring manager can make is they're higher and they want to do

[00:21:41] everything that they can do to ensure that you know not just the competency skillset required of

[00:21:46] the job but our culture you only get culture by meeting different people not one person but

[00:21:53] different people different and then you get all of that because in this process you should be

[00:21:58] interviewing me as much as i'm interviewing you to decide so i the more interviews you get

[00:22:04] especially if you are in a role very different from most of your clients bob but if you are currently

[00:22:10] in a company doing fine and someone reached out and you're going through this interview process

[00:22:14] it is a gift again when the company will give you the opportunity to ensure that you're going

[00:22:20] to like it here because i've now left my good job to come to you and after only interviewing

[00:22:25] with two people i don't really know i you know if this is right so i'm not i'm a big fan

[00:22:31] of more interviews not fewer provided you tell me up front provided you try to accommodate me and i've

[00:22:37] said to hiring managers try to you know give it one full day of interviews as opposed to having

[00:22:42] somebody return to your office six different times or six so because they do have lives and most of

[00:22:48] us with jobs can't just break out and so there is a lot to be said by candidate experience but

[00:22:54] i would just say i challenge the notion that the company gets nothing or is not investing

[00:22:59] anything and it's a fair point johnny i guess my point is is well when when it's enough enough

[00:23:07] like do i really need to go through eight rounds of interviews for because i can eat eight more people

[00:23:13] and have an even deeper sense of the culture there eight is probably enough remember that tv show

[00:23:18] oh my god eight's enough so i think there's some number if it's five if it's six i'll

[00:23:26] you know i can tell you right now in my current job my folks hate for me to talk about my current

[00:23:30] role but at the end of the day i have 11 direct reports if anyone is going to join my executive

[00:23:36] team they're going to meet them all because we happen to operate as a team so what is the

[00:23:43] point of you meeting nine people out of the 11 and saying love it love them all only to get here

[00:23:48] and the two you didn't meet you hate and by the way you spend a disproportionate amount of your

[00:23:53] time with them in your new job like to your credit i think it's about bob i'll throw this out and you

[00:23:59] can and i agree 11's a lot and eight's a lot but i think it's about telling people in the beginning

[00:24:05] this is how much time this is going to take if you're really interested in coming to work with

[00:24:09] my organization this is how we do it this is the number of interviews and i got it if you're

[00:24:16] too busy or and not judging you but you just can't commit the time check but if you do want to do it

[00:24:23] and you feel strongly about this upfront this is the time commitment i think that's a better one as

[00:24:28] opposed to making companies decide is for the magic number is six the magic number is eight enough

[00:24:34] i don't know the answer there so i'm unwilling to i've heard that very con you know sort of

[00:24:40] piece of feedback it's just too long well if i told you in the beginning this is how long

[00:24:44] it takes then you got to decide you know and hiring is i think i think you know

[00:24:51] it is and at the same time it's a very competitive labor market in the best people are in demand

[00:24:58] and i think that there's an efficiency there's just a you know you've talked about this before

[00:25:04] and i've really internalized this that there's not a good or a bad culture is it a fit for you

[00:25:09] is a different question but is that a good culture a bad culture i'm a little bit in the

[00:25:14] keeps can anybody here like make a decision like let's go but oh by the way i've also got

[00:25:20] three other things that i'm working on right now so i just want to be up front with you guys

[00:25:25] that i'm looking to make a decision in the next two weeks i'm happy to meet all 11 people if

[00:25:29] that if that's because i think this is a cool role is there a way that we can figure this out

[00:25:34] so that we can kind of meet it meet the finish line together now that makes sense we're saying the same

[00:25:42] thing that's right as long as you're clear about this is how much time i have to give they say this

[00:25:46] is much and then you match i will say this it could be that what they're doing is giving you

[00:25:53] an indication of how they actually operate you mentioned culture there's some organizations

[00:25:58] where no decision is made unless it's truly consensus so the interviewing process is is actually

[00:26:04] giving you some insight into how they operate so why have you just interviewed with four people

[00:26:10] in the name of expediency right you get there and then as you start you've accepted the job

[00:26:15] you're working there and you realize gosh every decision has to be done via consensus and it takes

[00:26:20] eight to ten people to make a decision i wish i had known that before i took this job

[00:26:26] hundred percent which is why i brought culture guys to your point right these are very

[00:26:31] strong behavioral indicators of how decisions get made here particularly important decisions

[00:26:38] that's right so to that point i will tell you a funny one so i've talked to someone and i'll save

[00:26:43] the name of the company because i don't want them to get upset but this person said this

[00:26:47] company required that i give them a writing sample and in the process of reviewing the

[00:26:52] writing sample this company has a very very strong bias toward writing in the active voice

[00:26:58] not the passive voice so the feedback that this individual my friend received in the hiring process

[00:27:05] was the piece that you submitted was really heavily written in in passive voice and we're an active voice

[00:27:11] company and my friend said i just rolled my eyes and i thought what a stupid thing to say

[00:27:18] and i said to him actually that was a gift because what could have happened is you've left

[00:27:23] your job to come here and you would have been brutalized because you didn't write an active voice

[00:27:29] now you may think that's a silly point but it's their point it's the way they operate and so i

[00:27:35] just got to throw in here as you kick it back to you be very careful my angelo the now one of

[00:27:41] greatest poets of all time said when someone shows you who they are the first time believe them

[00:27:47] it's one of her most famous quotes and so if the company is telling you eight nine ten

[00:27:55] at every level they're telling you who they are and you had better believe them and factor that so

[00:28:01] don't think that a rejection is rejection of you they may have just saved you a lot of

[00:28:07] painstaking like think about you you're working with people in your organization

[00:28:12] who have already been displaced typically they can't afford to make another mistake if they go

[00:28:18] somewhere and it doesn't work out three months from now when they come back to you now they've

[00:28:21] gotten job hopping on their resume so they need to understand who this organization is and that

[00:28:27] organization might have been telling you from the beginning we make decisions more slowly

[00:28:32] period we're consensus only period this is who we are yeah well to your point about mutual

[00:28:40] due diligence johnny this is why we also really double down on know yourself and know what's really

[00:28:50] important to you because what we do see is it when candidates have been displaced somebody press the

[00:28:55] pause button on their career and on their life and they get reflective it's like you know i

[00:28:59] haven't been happy there for the last two years and you know would i have ever had the

[00:29:04] gumption to leave on my own probably not but somebody did it for me you know what now i

[00:29:09] know more what i'm looking for and we really try to encourage people to have the conviction of your

[00:29:16] conscience of like what's what's important to you not just at work but in your life and how does this

[00:29:21] fit your life or not and so to your well-made point around hey this is mutual due diligence

[00:29:27] here and you need to understand the culture and and the way i say the real mark of of conviction

[00:29:34] and clarity is knowing what to say no to so a candidate needs to be able to say you know what

[00:29:41] this whole process this speaks volumes to me about how these guys roll i'm not going to be

[00:29:47] judgmental i'm just gonna say it's probably not a good fit for me not for me to that point i i

[00:29:54] oftentimes when you're not when you talked about wanting to discuss this i thought perfect timing

[00:29:59] think about interviewing like dating if you just think about it that way it's okay the first couple

[00:30:07] of dates to spend time asking questions it could be after the first day eh there's nothing i like

[00:30:13] about that person or they said that one thing but do the same thing to your point in the

[00:30:18] interviewing process you're interviewing your you're determining picking up all of the cues

[00:30:23] the words that are said and the ones that are unsaid you should be looking at it every and the

[00:30:29] second date and the third date and the fourth date none of us most of us don't rush in and make a

[00:30:33] decision about who you're going to spend your life with with two or three meetings you actually get

[00:30:40] more and more interactions and that's why some people sort of lean towards some organizations

[00:30:44] toward more interviews than less because we're trying to get you to put the same level of due

[00:30:49] diligence i like the way you're interviewing me and i'm interviewing you so this is not just us

[00:30:54] rejecting you you could reject us but amen it's time to figure out who these people are because

[00:31:02] as you know the data shows typically you spend more of your waking hours with your colleagues that

[00:31:08] work than you do your own family just because the mass says it right you sleep you work and then

[00:31:14] you have free time and there's just not a lot of free time to spend with people after working

[00:31:19] and sleep so i just would suggest that people not see yes hands down companies need to do better

[00:31:25] talent acquisition teams need to be more mindful for all the reasons that i described in the beginning

[00:31:30] the least of which is it's just not good practice it's not 21st century practice to blow people off

[00:31:36] not be responsive to be mean etc got it check and you need to all of us should be figuring out

[00:31:41] i love that idea that you shared about how to follow up with people got it the second thing though is

[00:31:49] maybe there's a gift and i keep using that term but every job that i have not gotten

[00:31:56] okay and these are jobs that i went after that i didn't get at the time i was annoyed because

[00:32:02] i'm competitive and i thought if i'm here you all are listening right this is johnny tail

[00:32:08] and then um it wasn't very long typically six months a year later i'd say gosh i dosed to pull it

[00:32:15] like this was they the they didn't reject me hell i wish i'd rejected them but some of us get so

[00:32:24] committed to wanting that job for financial reasons for ego reasons for whatever that we

[00:32:30] are too not we're not objective enough either would you say that bob

[00:32:33] no i would completely say that and i'm smiling while you're talking about being competitive not

[00:32:40] getting a job that you really really wanted and then being able to look back and go omg i

[00:32:45] i that would have been a disaster zone for me them right and the whole trajectory of my career

[00:32:53] would have been very different and and so i'm thankful for like how it ended up working out

[00:32:59] and you make a great point too about you know between just financial pressure ego whatever else

[00:33:06] fear whatever else might be acting on somebody like you really want this job but with a little bit

[00:33:14] of objectivity a little bit of perspective may not be the right fit for you so you know

[00:33:23] this whole candid experience it does go both ways which is what you always kind of bring me

[00:33:27] back to the there's not just one side of something having said all of that and i want to start to wrap

[00:33:33] us up here real quick but you know what we know is the candidates just want a timely response

[00:33:39] right so and i know you've got a little anecdote on ghosting they want a response they want a

[00:33:45] timely response right and they just want to be treated with i think all that kind of falls

[00:33:50] under the headline of respect you know so but but what happens in north america isn't what

[00:33:56] happens everywhere so you want to share a little story yes so i was watching i read something this

[00:34:01] morning that shared with me by chief staff from an organization called rest of the world or rest of

[00:34:07] world dot org and they were talking about people who would come to the united states on visas to work

[00:34:14] in the tech industry and then when the tech industry laid off from india by the way this

[00:34:17] article says they left india to come work for 160 000 a year one person did and then they

[00:34:24] were laid off last year in the tech resizing the tech industry resizing they went back to india

[00:34:29] and the guy was describing not only the pay cut he had to take the length that it took forget

[00:34:35] interviewing eight times he had to wait eight months to even get his first interview but then

[00:34:39] he said what was really interesting there is because they have 1.34 billion people if i thought

[00:34:46] i were just a number in the u.s talent acquisition process you really are in india he said the

[00:34:53] employers goes there their entire persona during the interview process is we're doing you a favor

[00:35:00] because we have so many people i got your stanford mba an engineering degree and everything but we've

[00:35:06] got thousands if not tens of thousands of people who have similar degrees and backgrounds right so

[00:35:12] it was really interesting to sometimes get get you know reoriented because we look at this a lot

[00:35:18] from a purely u.s centric standpoint the general consensus general consensus their exceptions is

[00:35:24] that the u.s talent acquisition process is actually a fairly dignified one filled with respect very

[00:35:31] responsive exceptions notwithstanding and that around the rest of the world particularly

[00:35:37] where they are the the economies are shrinking and they're far more volatile than ours

[00:35:42] that you you treat it pretty well in the u.s so again i'm not not saying there's not room for progress

[00:35:48] but i just think that we have to also be mindful of the fact that work to do but we've we've gotten a

[00:35:55] lot better than we used to with respect to talent acquisition in the hr profession yeah yeah and i

[00:36:01] appreciate everything you shared i guess i would sort of leave with you know that the employers

[00:36:07] do have brands and not just wal-mart macy's kinds of brands but brands within the ecosystem

[00:36:15] which they operate right oftentimes these candidates are going to end up at a client at a supplier

[00:36:22] like they're going to be part of your ecosystem and you want to be well represented that even

[00:36:28] though i didn't get hired by them you know what they treated me well and and i still respect them

[00:36:32] it's an organization blah blah blah same thing with referring talent same thing with

[00:36:38] reapplying may not have gotten that one director of marketing role but there's another role that's

[00:36:43] opened up and we want to make sure that if they were the you know kind of silver medal

[00:36:47] in the last one that they're still open for going through the process again and maybe being

[00:36:52] the gold medalist for this role you know and again johnny this is your speech but just

[00:36:59] doing the right thing is always the right thing and you know giving people grace that on your point

[00:37:05] talent acquisition people are doing the best within you know not a lot of resources working a lot of

[00:37:11] volume often right yep but at the same time you know candidates are real people too and

[00:37:20] you're just being empathetic in both directions not me pathetic is it me pathetic uh

[00:37:27] he's a great point

[00:37:30] yeah no i really enjoyed this topic and i hope i hope we walk away

[00:37:35] as you said the practitioners on the phone hiring managers if you're not an hr um it's still

[00:37:41] every one of us you you make the point which is you're going to see these people again in snowy

[00:37:47] and therefore why not do right by people even if you frankly even if you never were gonna they

[00:37:53] were never going to be a customer or whatever why get in the business of not treating people the

[00:37:58] way you'd like to be treated amen so i think i can't end on a better note than that johnny great to see

[00:38:03] you as always thank you for your wisdom everybody who's listening or watching the work wire this week

[00:38:09] thank you so much if you're on youtube or your favorite podcast please rate review subscribe

[00:38:15] and if you've got any ideas that you would like to see us cover on a future work wire episode

[00:38:20] you can email me at bobbycareer.club and we would love to hear what you guys would like to talk about

[00:38:24] so with that johnny i wish you all have a great rest of your week you too happy new year again my

[00:38:29] friend into the audience thank you so much check out career.club for personalized help with your

[00:38:34] job search visit shrm.org to become part of the largest human resources organization worldwide