Affinity Classes - The Work Wire

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[00:00:31] Welcome everybody, this is Bob Goodwin with Career Club and welcome to another episode of The Work Wire.

[00:00:37] We're enjoying my good friend, the president, CEO of Shirm, Johnny C. Taylor, Jr. Johnny, welcome how are you?

[00:00:44] I'm doing well, man. Little under the weather, but I'm good, excited to talk with you.

[00:00:48] You're an audience today.

[00:00:50] Yeah, well we appreciate our audience and maybe that's a good chance to mention.

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[00:00:59] We thank you guys, you know, not that we've launched officially the the downloads Johnny have been amazing and it's really great to know that we're making an impact and people are listening to the work wires.

[00:01:10] Thank you everyone for joining.

[00:01:14] The topic today, Johnny is not in the easy one.

[00:01:18] It's going to be, I think, you know, I don't know if contentious is the right word but it certainly is.

[00:01:26] One that requires a bit more of a think.

[00:01:31] Then sometimes we might consider.

[00:01:37] So this is about a topic that I think is going to have a big impact on the potentially people coming into the workforce.

[00:01:47] So younger people, this we're going into basically school age kids right now.

[00:01:51] And the topic is affinity classes and let me just read a little bit.

[00:01:55] This is an Evan Stin Illinois, Chicago where the Evan's in township high school introduced voluntary segregated classrooms for black and Latino students in specific subjects like math and arriving seminar.

[00:02:11] These as they're called affinity classes are taught by teachers of color and aim to address the persistent academic achievement gap between black Latino and white students.

[00:02:24] The initiative is part of a broader effort to find effective ways to boost the performance of minority students who tend to enroll in fewer advanced classes in school lower on standardized test nationwide.

[00:02:40] Okay, so the problem, you're at least from a data perspective is that children of color tend to under participate in advanced classes and school lower on standardized academic tests.

[00:02:58] The solve for this therefore is in this experiment is to put black and Latino kids in the same classrooms together to the exclusion of white students.

[00:03:15] Where they feel more comfortable where there are around people like them, where the teacher is someone who looks in sounds like them.

[00:03:25] In an effort to create what in theory would be a more conducive welcoming environment for learning.

[00:03:39] There's so many things I want to unpack there and Bob you're right, this is like as close to fire is in.

[00:03:48] So but thank you for for raising it because I think first of all let me just tell you I hate the use of the term people of color.

[00:03:57] I've despised it for a long time because I actually believe you have a color what no I can't I have a color and so this notion that only some people have color there if you love color and other people it's just I've never quite understood that.

[00:04:15] But whatever right the whole construct right is just bizarre to me but there are so many.

[00:04:24] First let me start with I understand at some level that what we're trying to do is remove the barriers that we think are leading to these disparities.

[00:04:37] So I don't think at least I hope that none of this comes from a desire to segregate societies.

[00:04:45] Hell we bought my ancestors bought real hard for us to have the opportunity to live in an integrated society and be given the opportunities irrespective of the color of our skin your gender you're like all of that right.

[00:05:00] So I'm going to start from a place of good intention and that is that these folks have said the data shows us that these children who come from underrepresented groups much better term than people of color to me.

[00:05:14] But these children who come from under historically underrepresented groups are not performing as well on math and writing or English scores got it.

[00:05:25] And so they are testing to see what are the barriers to them achieving like the rest of the majority community.

[00:05:36] So I'm going to start from that's actually a noble goal because by definition if you see these problems and have seen them over years decades and you don't try and test to solve for it then shame on you because that means these disparities will persist and potentially get worse.

[00:05:56] So anyone listening I'm starting from a good place.

[00:05:59] Yeah.

[00:06:01] Fast forward though as an employer and representing the employer community let's just pretend that that so and you've done this for 18 years K through 12 so that be 13 years different day.

[00:06:17] I'm going to start from a good point of view and I'm going to start from a good point of view.

[00:06:47] I want I am concerned initially with the idea that you've trained someone for 12 or 13 years to operate to learn to to perform in an environment that is just not realistic at the end of their high school graduation.

[00:07:07] And then we go to a college campus and I can speak pretty definitively about this having been the former CEO of the third and martial college fund which represented the largest number of historical black colleges and universities in this country.

[00:07:19] That even an HBCU is not an EBCU which is an exclusively black college university.

[00:07:28] There's diversity on those campuses you walk into North Carolina, ANT and your class, your engineering class is going to have Asian students, Hispanic students, black students, white students.

[00:07:40] So I'm just not real sure where you end up after K through 12 education or PK through 12 education in this isolated kind of environment segregated environment.

[00:07:53] How you are then going to be expected to assimilate at that point after that level of segregation.

[00:08:02] I'm going to use that term because that's what it is, if in fact as you described it there's saying non black or Latino students aren't in these classes even the instructor is not like that's really interesting.

[00:08:14] What do you do when you show up at work and your manager's white or you show up in your first year as a freshman college and your instructors are white what do you do and that could be on the campus of an HBCU even.

[00:08:24] So I told you offline that I'll probably go off on this topic and I will but as soon as I read it I was just repulsed by the whole and I'll pick up the solution.

[00:08:40] I will I will see the ground that the intent is good. We want everyone to have equal opportunity to succeed and if we see, consistent the data that there is a noticeable disparity that should be addressed.

[00:08:56] I am all my chips are on that idea. I like that. If soon as I read this I'm like this is segregation, this is like this is what everything was about to prevent this and can you imagine if well I don't know this to be true or not true but I was just like if a white person said you know we are a useless part of the black kids in a room put on the Latino.

[00:09:21] You know how, how are you kidding me seriously? Are you kidding me? But like here we are under the the monitor of affinity classes.

[00:09:33] Wow another thing that just strikes me is just wrong about this is well you know john he's on the brown bus you know why they got brown bus right because because well they need to be in their own classroom because well you know and that for a.

[00:09:51] First I apparently have non-color who who it's like you're creating your creating stereotypes and biases in my mind that well you know they're not as smart as us so you got to put them over what are you freaking kidding me who had no any sign up for that program.

[00:10:12] And then to your point and then this is why I brought this particular topic to the program today is where does this logically lead in the workforce we are preparing people.

[00:10:27] To not be able to work in environments that we're not right here's black or Hispanic or whatever you know the affinity class is and then how do you can also see well okay.

[00:10:43] You know I'm in this Latino math class but I'm from Cuba and we kind of hate the people from Mexico.

[00:10:51] I don't be in the Cuban you know math class only like what yep but it's going to just get more fractured which because my groups now under represented I don't see an affinity class for me.

[00:11:04] You know we talk about the I and my gap this is a DEI initiative 100% divide exclude and isolate.

[00:11:19] It's horrible I think this is like the worst idea I've ever heard.

[00:11:22] Well let me tell you so for all sorts of reasons I tend to agree with you again I start from a place where I think it's almost the last ditch effort to try to find a way to solve for the race performance gap the ethnicity performance gap etc.

[00:11:40] So I like I'm there and so a couple of things stood out to me one it's the opposite of diversity yes.

[00:11:48] We're teaching our kids we've said it's a very important value in our society particularly the American society for boys and girls to be educated together for blacks and whites and ethnic ethnically wise like we want this diversity we no longer send.

[00:12:05] People who have disabilities to schools for people with disabilities we try to bring them into the environment to be educated and mainstream with everyone else right.

[00:12:15] So it just feels like to your point all of the diversity because I think our diversity is our strength and if we make decisions and we learn and we learn to perform in a diverse environment.

[00:12:27] The outcome should be significantly better I fundamentally that believe that just that mean it's easier no because you've heard me say in time and time again.

[00:12:36] It's probably much more efficient and easier to have a group who have the same set of experiences background to set her together to make decisions because you can do it efficiently they all know each other there's no time but I don't think that yields the best result over time.

[00:12:52] So one it feels like it's counter everything we've said we worked hard we've made it against the law to segregate in neighborhoods for example right we say we wouldn't do that and now we essentially are going to begin to institutionalize that in K through 12 education I don't think that's good idea number two and perhaps more concerning is we always think.

[00:13:16] About the advantages of the underrepresented community being together in this context and how they will learn better they will do better etc.

[00:13:26] I think there's huge learnings when you bring underrepresented folks into a majority environment for the majority children.

[00:13:39] They should learn to interact with people who are different than they are but if you've segregated them you are robbing these children and these children of getting to know people and this is the biggest point for me is I've learned in this early on my college days and it is stuck with me throughout my career.

[00:14:01] You're in that work often times becomes your network and so here's the deal if I was in a school and Bill Gates Elon Musk go down the list where in my school.

[00:14:17] I guess Johnny's the black guy. I'm in the other classroom we're in the same school but they want me to be in math class with people who look just like me.

[00:14:27] I have no opportunity to build relationships build my network with people in my school because we are in the same school but we're in different classrooms that disadvantage is me it doesn't advantage me it disadvantages me and I fundamentally believe that while again as well intended as I think this is.

[00:14:57] I'm not sure they look different than me so socioeconomic status raised by the way there are all sorts of different forms of diversity.

[00:15:05] And because I knew them and they knew me we've been able to grow and help each other through our careers.

[00:15:10] How sad of a reality if I didn't get to build meaningful relationships and some might be saying I can hear the audience saying well they could do it in the cafeteria or they could do it here they could do it on a playground no no no I'm saying learning together which is the equivalent of working together.

[00:15:25] Yes, that happens in the classroom setting and I just I really concerned to have a 13 year old daughter as you know and the idea that she would be you know sort of put in a room with only black children or frankly only white children for that matter so it's not I'm not making a judgment about one grouping better than the other thing this notion that she would be robbed of the beauty of a diverse work.

[00:15:55] Learning environment is tragic forget what it ultimately will yield for us as society is more segregation not and division in that integration.

[00:16:07] So I feel I'm with you I don't I just I'm when I read it and heard you introduce it I was like gosh I don't want this to become some hot topic over because that's the problem everyone wants to debate about something.

[00:16:20] This isn't a debate is just my gosh there has to be a way to achieve the same result without taking our young innocent.

[00:16:30] minds and already creating in their minds if you're in the to your point the classroom with the white children who think yeah we perform better without those people are they they're subordinate to us or that my gosh we're starting right there a very very dark place and.

[00:16:49] and we're going down into a hole that we shouldn't be all of our children had the ability to learn.

[00:16:54] Now we'll say this though it is very important that we find a way to ensure that our classrooms are diverse and when I say diverse it could be in a school that is majority black students that you have white teachers.

[00:17:07] Vice versa in school that has a lot of white students to check black teachers I think it's really important that not just from the student perspective but.

[00:17:18] the administration the instructors that they have to be diverse too we say that in corporate America I mean we know that we absolutely know the value of our organization is to be able to look around and see that we all are huge are racist all ethnicities all gender what we have a diverse leadership as well.

[00:17:36] and I think this starts in K through 12 and if what you're telling me is that they're literally putting all Hispanic children a classroom with only as Hispanic teacher.

[00:17:48] and that's what the classroom is setting them up for a major disappointment when they come into the real world well I think so and you know like you said earlier john because I this to me is like some of what's so fundamentally.

[00:18:00] bad about this idea for me is the very young minds thinking that this is normal this is what's best.

[00:18:12] that you may such a good point about robbing them of the interaction with other people who don't look in sound like me like everybody benefits from everybody else that's you know sort of the.

[00:18:28] metaphor of the body the ice not better than the elbow is better than the foot is better than anything it's like no it all needs to work together to work best.

[00:18:38] and what some of the article talked about was well but I feel more comfortable around people who look like me so now around the fields.

[00:18:48] I just feel more comfortable you know what I feel more comfortable you know not being around people who don't look like me.

[00:18:58] my goal is to make you feel comfortable around everyone and that is the point so in the short term you not feeling very comfortable is maybe okay no not is maybe it is okay because my ultimate goal is for you to be comfortable around anyone now clearly we have friends who we are closer with than others hell even with an family I've.

[00:19:24] I mean I get that part but but at the end of the day I have to find a way to be comfortable I mean reasonably comfortable around anyone and.

[00:19:33] I just notion of letting your emotions drive how you educate and the experience that your children get is bizarre to me.

[00:19:42] I really is and so that I mean you see me just grab my head like it is insane I never thought I'd live to see a day where having been a kid born in the late 60s that we would be working toward bringing resegregating our children I have that that's what just like completely blew my mind about the strategy what in the world.

[00:20:04] I mean I'm not going to get you.

[00:20:06] Fine if that I get let's find other ways to achieve that but further you know segregating to use that term a community is is not at least in K through 12 we are our diversity is our strength I keep saying that and this notion that we cannot allow our kids access to all of the diversity that's a great country offers is I think that not a bad thing what other thing though.

[00:21:00] That does.

[00:21:02] I think that this was before the Hispanic migration and Haitian migration all at this was pure black and white world and I will say this that there were times when I could go a whole day and not see anyone who looked like me.

[00:21:16] That was the failure of the system too.

[00:21:20] So you can't talk about diversity and not have diversity so I'm actually we do have to be intentional about ensuring that we have role models and we have other classmates and we have people with whom you have some natural affinity not to the exclusion of others but.

[00:21:36] And so I don't know much about this part of the country that you're speaking of but this notion that we can somehow that it's just black people who have to or brown people who have to assimilate with white people is not I don't think that's good either we got to commit to everyone experiencing different.

[00:21:56] Yeah, so on a previous episode of the workwire we talked about you know it's not the intention to just make people comfortable like diversity training will actually create discomfort and that's not bad like that that's the intent.

[00:22:16] It means because it might be initially uncomfortable for something should be should be but we don't stop at as adults we don't stop at well that was kind of uncomfortable so I'm going to stop.

[00:22:32] It's like no I'm a big boy you're a big girl we're going to figure this out because the goal and maybe that's actually what we need to talk about.

[00:22:42] What's the end goal here right now we're on the workwire we're talking about work issues but obviously work is a microcosm of society in so many ways.

[00:22:52] And the idea is that I'm willing to get over my initial discomfort because it's worth it the pay off is worth it.

[00:23:18] And I said to my wife first of all that's weird why in second of all can you imagine when it feels like to be that man.

[00:23:28] Can you imagine if this like to be that man what if the role for you first how would you feel and it seems like wow.

[00:23:35] But if you're if you're not looking you're not going to see that good thing right and you're back on to our topic with this it's like.

[00:23:48] You're you're sending these kids up to not be empathetic and to to be able to appreciate.

[00:23:57] The life experiences of other people that's a stand man like that is just not good and you know I I want us to understand better what are the underlying root causes that the fruit of them are these not.

[00:24:18] You're.

[00:24:18] Performance on test scores and participation of these kinds of classes because that is not a good outcome either well and let me tell you something you nailed you nailed the topic I'm so can we get to.

[00:24:30] And that is a lot of times we have these experiments obviously they're doing it no matter what you and I think about it so they've decided they're going to do it.

[00:24:38] But the real test is does it work and are they prepared to end it so fast forward three years later are the grades better on standardized test are the grades better just the grades are the kids learning.

[00:24:53] Better and I hope to the extent they're doing this that they're willing to be honest about the data yes and we can.

[00:25:01] That's right we got to know because listen you and I could be wrong about I'm prepared to say my instinct is we're not as much as I know about people and I and I understand human pedagogy and and everything I just can't see but I'm willing to say show me the results if in fact you show me.

[00:25:23] That we took this name to period two three years four years we took a kid in middle school at ninth grade and we took them through 12th grade and we had the segregated this is how the kids performed it would be interesting to know.

[00:25:36] Now obviously we've got to figure out what led to it and you got to dissect the information but one of the things that I find that happened a lot happens a lot.

[00:25:44] As we do this stuff there's a big announcement and then no one comes back to say did it work or not and especially when it didn't work.

[00:25:52] When that outcome was not what they wanted they either don't talk about it or they excuse it and.

[00:25:59] I mean, whatever is doing these great experiments they have to be honest did it work net net.

[00:26:05] How did that do and I got a better one it's not just did they graduate from school.

[00:26:10] But as I told you fine you graduate and the segregated environment the real question is and then when you go to college you go to the workforce how did you fail.

[00:26:18] So when you said you know did it work I'd be like well okay depends on how we're measuring yes there are the scores but also at what cost.

[00:26:29] At what cost that's my point so work is a combination of the cost and the expense is the profit right until that's the big question is and that's what we'll know so if that kid completes.

[00:26:41] That school system with a 4.0 and a great SAT score goes on to a non diverse rather a diverse college campus and fails miserably.

[00:26:54] Literally goes through all sorts of mental anguish and illness and we know that we have a mental wellness problem in our country right now ultimately drops out or is so miserable they do some self harm.

[00:27:07] Then it did in work it did not because that person was not prepared which I think K through 12 education is supposed to do is to prepare you to a life afterwards right and you can measure how do they do in the workforce when they withdrawn into a diverse environment did that work.

[00:27:24] So I guess the big takeaway for me is they've obviously decided they're going to do this they're doing it because that's why you're reporting on an on the work wire but I hope whoever it is again I'm starting with good intentions.

[00:27:37] That they are truly capturing the data and that they're honest about whether or not this work or not and here's the big.

[00:27:45] If it worked be careful with your pray for because that same logic can say okay, let's go backwards let's let's segregate everyone white kids don't need to go to schools with black children they don't need to this you know we could and you got to be really careful as my grand was it be careful which pray for.

[00:28:02] Yeah because you know this can expand beyond race you can go to well rich kids poor kids however that's the find like anything and so.

[00:28:14] The timeline done this repeat what you said the timeline for measuring the effectiveness of this is decades.

[00:28:23] Right it's not an extended ice test I'm not I think I think their multiple time tables kind of not to disagree but I think there's probably.

[00:28:32] Year to year so how many kids dropped out who wouldn't have dropped out in high school and then you know year to year and then how many people got to graduation what when you know so I think there's a four year when no to look at.

[00:28:45] And then there's the if they went to college or to work so yeah over decades you'll be able to figure it out but we're good we have to we have to lose a total generation we can see if it works they should look back at the end of next school year.

[00:28:57] The first sort of measuring point is let's see how it worked and that's not to say abandon it but it could be it could be that the results are so bad.

[00:29:07] That the numbers are not good the kids are not being they're not as because remember with children.

[00:29:14] That year that you're testing their losing potentially and you can never catch up right if the kid is falling behind and you take we know this from COVID right the COVID era.

[00:29:26] That when kids certain kids were out of school for a year to years they will never catch up with the rest of their colleagues who had tutors and schools etc.

[00:29:36] So we're we're testing with some of the most vulnerable people in our society and I don't think that's particularly a good idea.

[00:29:43] I have to agree with you. Well, Johnny we will have to keep keep an eye on this one. This is a very much topic and I think that.

[00:29:53] You know ultimately these folks should be in the workforce and you know are they going to be successful as they could have been should have been.

[00:30:03] That's right we will keep an eye on this one. Johnny as always it's a tough topic there are no simple answers but we have to explore them people need to talk about.

[00:30:13] And you know we will continue to be vigilant in looking for things that are in the news they in society that are impacting today's workforce and the future of work as well.

[00:30:25] So thank you. I can't you a better person to do it with the new.

[00:30:27] Come on.

[00:30:29] No, no.

[00:30:29] What mean is thank you for tackling this there are a lot of folks who with they're not touched this conversation the fact that you and I could and it's just it makes me happy it's why I do this.

[00:30:41] I you know I'm not making it because I'm you but I don't make anybody but I love doing this because this is what we've got to prepare our society. You said it's not just about work is the broader society so thank you for this conversation.

[00:30:53] Thank you Johnny and thank you everybody who's taking the time out of your day to listen to this on your favorite podcast platform or on YouTube.

[00:31:01] Please rate review it really does help.

[00:31:03] Johnny, you know it's a privilege to be your friend. It's a privilege to do the work wire with you and I hope you feel better soon.

[00:31:10] Thank you much.

[00:31:11] Thank you.

[00:31:12] Happy holidays.

[00:31:13] Happy holidays everyone.

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