The Power of Small Commitments: The Science Behind Behavior Change with Chris Taylor, Founder of Actionable

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[00:01:11] What is going on everybody? Ryan Leary, William Tinkup here. You are listening to the Use Case Podcast. Today we are talking with Chris Taylor, who is with Actionable. Chris, how are you today?

[00:01:24] I am fabulous. Ryan, how are you?

[00:01:27] Oh, never had a bad day in my life. And you know, that is no, that is definitely true.

[00:01:33] Last Thursday.

[00:01:34] I worked hard at Thursday.

[00:01:36] Thursday sucked. Thursday definitely sucked.

[00:01:39] His wife takes off for the beach and leaves two kids at the house.

[00:01:44] But that wasn't supposed to happen.

[00:01:46] He's planned a four-day fishing odyssey.

[00:01:49] Oh.

[00:01:49] Yeah. Chris, you got to understand.

[00:01:51] So I got three guys.

[00:01:52] Okay.

[00:01:53] They're 16, 13, and 10.

[00:01:55] One of them was getting driven down to the beach to go spend time with their friend's family, boyfriend's family, whatever.

[00:02:02] The other two were going to go for the day and stay overnight and all that.

[00:02:06] Somehow, we're on a call.

[00:02:08] William and I are on a call.

[00:02:09] We're recording or something.

[00:02:10] And I'm hearing people like, everybody left.

[00:02:13] I'm like, what the hell is going on?

[00:02:14] Now, meanwhile, and he's not telling you, he has planned four days of fishing.

[00:02:19] Yeah.

[00:02:20] Trailer's hooked up.

[00:02:21] Things ready to go.

[00:02:22] I'm rigged.

[00:02:23] I'm ready to rock.

[00:02:24] As soon as we're done this call, I'm out.

[00:02:26] She left two kids here.

[00:02:29] They didn't want to go.

[00:02:30] I love that.

[00:02:32] That was it.

[00:02:33] I'm like, what are we doing here?

[00:02:35] Genius move.

[00:02:36] Not only did she leave, she left the two kids that need some attention.

[00:02:41] Right.

[00:02:41] And she took the one that she's dropping off with other people.

[00:02:45] Yeah.

[00:02:45] The independent one that drives.

[00:02:48] Right.

[00:02:48] Yeah.

[00:02:49] Genius.

[00:02:49] Smooth.

[00:02:50] She had a totally right.

[00:02:51] You've married way, way above your class here, Ryan.

[00:02:54] I may have offended a number of people that day on call.

[00:02:58] There's no doubt.

[00:03:00] No doubt.

[00:03:01] He didn't listen to one call like it was a call.

[00:03:05] And he didn't listen to anything on the call.

[00:03:07] Like, his eyes are bouncing around.

[00:03:09] Like, you could tell that he's not there.

[00:03:12] Yeah.

[00:03:13] They're asking me questions.

[00:03:14] I'm like, hang on a sec, guys.

[00:03:16] Not caring what you're talking about.

[00:03:18] The 10 and 13 year old are not fishing avid, avid fisher people?

[00:03:22] Well, the 10 year old is.

[00:03:24] Yeah.

[00:03:25] Yeah.

[00:03:25] However, well, this is where it gets better.

[00:03:28] My mother-in-law came over.

[00:03:30] Okay.

[00:03:31] This was on a Wednesday.

[00:03:32] My mother-in-law came over, took them both to the movies, took the 10 year old who would

[00:03:37] actually fish and we go fishing all the time, took her home with her to sleep over.

[00:03:42] So now I'm down to one.

[00:03:44] Right.

[00:03:45] Right.

[00:03:45] We're getting close.

[00:03:47] This is the one that doesn't fish, doesn't want to hang out with dad, can't drive herself

[00:03:51] anywhere and has plans with other friends who they made to come over the house.

[00:03:55] This is a poorly negotiated contract.

[00:03:58] Great.

[00:03:58] What does this?

[00:03:59] So needless to say, I sat in this chair in the basement and recorded.

[00:04:03] And now that everybody's completely.

[00:04:05] He was so angry, like so angry with people the whole time.

[00:04:10] It was so great.

[00:04:12] So when he starts this off and he's like, I've never had a bad day in my life.

[00:04:15] Yay.

[00:04:16] Actually, last week was bad.

[00:04:19] It was just one day.

[00:04:21] It was just one.

[00:04:21] It took, it actually did take a little bit of time to get out on a funk, but I did get

[00:04:25] out on Saturday.

[00:04:27] Whatever.

[00:04:27] But we're here to talk about Chris and actionable.

[00:04:31] Chris, why don't you, why don't you introduce yourself?

[00:04:34] Tell the audience a little bit about yourself and what you're doing.

[00:04:38] And we'll jump right into actionable and learn all about the tech.

[00:04:41] Sure.

[00:04:42] My name is Chris.

[00:04:42] I do not fish.

[00:04:44] Chris Taylor.

[00:04:45] I run a company called actionable.

[00:04:46] Which is why you probably have a lot of bad days.

[00:04:49] That's it.

[00:04:49] That's it.

[00:04:50] I'm just miserable all the time because I'm not, I'm not fishing.

[00:04:53] Two brothers who are avid fishermen, but never, never struck me.

[00:04:58] Yeah.

[00:04:58] So based in Toronto, Canada, I've been running actionable for 17 years.

[00:05:02] I've got two young boys, myself and, and a wife who keeps us all sane.

[00:05:08] Yeah.

[00:05:09] I can go into detail.

[00:05:11] So technically she has three boys.

[00:05:13] She has three, a hundred percent.

[00:05:14] Yeah.

[00:05:14] My wife has three boys that I cohabitate with.

[00:05:17] That's what it is.

[00:05:19] A lot of, a lot of things that I have two boys as well, but they're 18 and 14.

[00:05:23] So they're a little bit older.

[00:05:25] And yeah, my wife, she has three boys.

[00:05:27] I always find it interesting that my boys refer to our bedroom as mom's bedroom.

[00:05:32] A hundred percent.

[00:05:33] Yeah.

[00:05:33] What is that?

[00:05:34] Exactly.

[00:05:35] A hundred percent.

[00:05:35] I have to correct them.

[00:05:37] I'm like, actually, you know that I, I, that's my bedroom too, right?

[00:05:41] Yeah.

[00:05:43] I don't know why I feel.

[00:05:44] Can I stay in mommy's bedroom tonight?

[00:05:47] Yeah.

[00:05:47] Sure.

[00:05:48] I don't know why I feel like I have to stake the claim with my own sons.

[00:05:52] I'm not sure.

[00:05:53] Correct the behavior.

[00:05:55] But I do.

[00:05:56] Anyhow, every time they're like, do you want us to get out of mom's bedroom?

[00:05:59] Like that's not mom's.

[00:06:02] It's mine.

[00:06:03] Ours.

[00:06:04] It can be both.

[00:06:05] It can be that.

[00:06:07] All right.

[00:06:08] Well, why don't we jump in?

[00:06:09] Chris, why don't you introduce actionable?

[00:06:12] Tell us a little bit about what you guys are doing.

[00:06:14] And then we're excited to dig in and tear this thing apart and see what you guys have.

[00:06:19] Perfect.

[00:06:21] All right.

[00:06:21] You guys, uh, appreciate it.

[00:06:23] You've been doing your own things for a while, but if you go back in time, was there a point

[00:06:26] where you were subjected to corporate training?

[00:06:29] Someone came in from the outside, you sat in the classroom, you did the learning thing.

[00:06:33] Yeah.

[00:06:34] Okay.

[00:06:35] So if the training's done well, people are inspired, right?

[00:06:39] They get excited about the stuff.

[00:06:41] They get connection.

[00:06:41] It feels good.

[00:06:42] Then they leave the room and then what happens?

[00:06:45] Learning gone.

[00:06:47] Yeah.

[00:06:47] Usually.

[00:06:48] Right.

[00:06:48] In the best case, we usually sort of lovingly shelve the notebook.

[00:06:51] Right.

[00:06:51] And then we're going to come back to it later.

[00:06:53] And yeah.

[00:06:54] So the question is, do you still have the notebooks that you put away?

[00:06:59] I got all the stuff in notebooks that I haven't opened in a decade, right?

[00:07:01] They're down there.

[00:07:02] Yeah.

[00:07:03] So that, that's what actionable does.

[00:07:05] What we help is bridge the gap from what the inspiration that happens in the classroom,

[00:07:08] whether that's virtual or live to help people actually put the ideas into practice that

[00:07:13] matter to them.

[00:07:14] And we do it in a way that gives the facilitator and the organization visibility into the behavior

[00:07:21] change that's happening as a result of that training.

[00:07:23] So our whole sort of value proposition purpose for being is we want to help participants turn

[00:07:30] their good intention into action.

[00:07:32] And we want the organization to be able to start to quantify the investment that they made in that

[00:07:36] training program.

[00:07:38] So if, if people threw you in the LMS category, how far off or how close is that?

[00:07:45] It's, I mean, it's certainly where we get lumped.

[00:07:48] You know, I started this company 17 years ago.

[00:07:51] There was no category for what we did back then.

[00:07:54] Impact measurement is becoming a category, but it's still very small.

[00:07:57] I'd say the big distinction with an LMS and actionable has some LMS ish components to it,

[00:08:04] but we don't, we're not a content provider.

[00:08:07] We don't really store content or about the actions that follow the sessions themselves and

[00:08:14] supporting that behavior change.

[00:08:16] Right.

[00:08:16] So they can up, they, and some LMS is they can upload content, but they don't have the

[00:08:23] intentionality of understanding what happens after that.

[00:08:26] Yeah.

[00:08:27] That's right.

[00:08:27] Content's been uploaded.

[00:08:29] I understand that.

[00:08:30] Okay.

[00:08:30] If you think about the, so we look at change on a personal level, I'm drawing in the air

[00:08:34] cause I don't have my, my whiteboard in front of me.

[00:08:36] Um, but you've got sort of four stages that, that participants go through or learners go

[00:08:41] through, we get the content.

[00:08:43] So we understand, assuming we've consumed it, we understand cerebrally how to change,

[00:08:48] but that doesn't drive change.

[00:08:49] Right.

[00:08:50] The context, which is the next piece is where we go from head to heart where we go, Oh,

[00:08:54] I actually care about this enough that I, I may want to put some effort into changing

[00:08:58] and good facilitators will take people to that point.

[00:09:01] Right.

[00:09:01] They give them content and context.

[00:09:03] Then they leave.

[00:09:04] The third stage is action where it's around.

[00:09:07] All right.

[00:09:07] Well, you know, I learned how to be a more empathetic listener.

[00:09:10] I leave the room going, I'm going to be a better listener.

[00:09:12] It's like, great.

[00:09:13] Love that intention.

[00:09:14] But you don't, you don't do better listening, right?

[00:09:17] Better listening happens through a series of behavior changes.

[00:09:20] And so we focus on what are the small behavior changes that you can make?

[00:09:25] You can practice daily.

[00:09:26] Like Ryan, you know, if his wife was using, it could be like, don't leave the house without

[00:09:31] telling Ryan, I'm leaving children here.

[00:09:33] That could be a daily practice.

[00:09:35] Yeah.

[00:09:36] I think I'd win that though.

[00:09:40] And she has to feel motivated to want to change Ryan, which is your wife may have an additional

[00:09:45] boy at the house.

[00:09:46] If that happens, cause she's going to kick me out.

[00:09:49] If I come to her with that.

[00:09:51] Anytime you come on up.

[00:09:53] Um, and that, so that piece, that action component, a most participants are not set up well, because

[00:09:59] we're at this sort of fluffy level, like the new year's Eve moment, right.

[00:10:02] Of I'm going to get in better shape.

[00:10:04] So actionable helps to translate good intention into a daily practice.

[00:10:08] Then we've got a pretty basic nudge technology that would remind the person of the thing that

[00:10:13] they've said matters and they can then record their progress.

[00:10:16] And then the insight component, which is the fourth stage of change where on a personal

[00:10:20] level, we need to reflect to be able to course correct.

[00:10:24] And organizationally, we want to see what happened when we delivered that content, contextualize

[00:10:29] in that way, what actions did it drive and what impact is that having on the business

[00:10:33] at large?

[00:10:33] So that's what we do.

[00:10:34] So now this obviously transcends anything we do.

[00:10:38] It could be weight loss, fitness.

[00:10:40] It could be work, anything.

[00:10:42] Anything from the time, which is interesting because this is everything we do, especially

[00:10:47] weight loss and fitness.

[00:10:49] It's small behavioral changes.

[00:10:51] 100%.

[00:10:52] Right.

[00:10:53] That's built upon each other.

[00:10:55] 17 years ago, when you started doing what you're doing, what has been, I know we're going

[00:11:01] to get into the product and who's buying and all that stuff, but what has been the massive

[00:11:06] change, the biggest change that you could point to that maybe you did not expect to happen

[00:11:11] over the last 17 years?

[00:11:14] Yeah, great question.

[00:11:15] So two things, both of which have basically saved the business.

[00:11:19] First of all, there's a book called The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg that came out and

[00:11:23] hit bestseller lists and became really popular.

[00:11:26] It was one of the first books that was taking sort of 30 years of behavior science and popularizing

[00:11:32] it in a way that people went, yes, please, more of that.

[00:11:34] And then, of course, James Clear wrote Atomic Habits and a number of other books in the

[00:11:38] middle.

[00:11:39] And so the whole world of habit formation and habit building and exactly, Ryan, to your

[00:11:44] point around, you know, we focus on small incremental change.

[00:11:48] 17 years ago, that was less the conversation.

[00:11:51] Right.

[00:11:51] And now it's becoming much more popular and common knowledge.

[00:11:54] So that was huge.

[00:11:55] That made a big change.

[00:11:57] We probably would have gone out of business in 2021, maybe 2022, if the pandemic hadn't

[00:12:03] have happened.

[00:12:05] Because leading up to that point, I had a whole bunch of HR, L&D, OD, change transformation

[00:12:11] companies going, or not companies, but departments going, yeah, this makes a ton of sense.

[00:12:17] And it's really important.

[00:12:20] Right.

[00:12:21] And it was a kiss of death, right?

[00:12:22] It was really much.

[00:12:23] Yeah.

[00:12:23] But I can't afford it.

[00:12:24] Well, I can't afford it.

[00:12:26] And also just, you know, we were the HR industry at large.

[00:12:28] I have to tell you guys, this was pretty static to that point.

[00:12:32] And then all of a sudden, you've got HR launched into the spotlight.

[00:12:36] No reasons to do with training and development, but in the spotlight, no less.

[00:12:40] And at the C-suite and being asked tough questions about proof of impact and around, you know,

[00:12:46] sort of how are we managing the investment here?

[00:12:48] And so it gave L&D, and particularly those on the leading edge of L&D, an opportunity to

[00:12:53] reinvent how they showed up at the executive table.

[00:12:57] And then suddenly we got, I remember I had one week back in November of 23, where I had

[00:13:02] McKinsey, Bain, BCG, and Deloitte all reach out in the same week going, was there some summit

[00:13:07] I didn't know about?

[00:13:10] We know about you.

[00:13:11] Tell us more about how you can sustain and prove impact because this is a gap for us.

[00:13:17] And so those two things never would have seen those coming, Ryan, and they both had a major

[00:13:22] impact on the business.

[00:13:24] So tell us a little bit about how you report or the analytics behind it.

[00:13:29] Yeah, for sure.

[00:13:30] So we're in sort of an interesting space.

[00:13:32] I mean, the ROI of learning has been, I mean, that's not new, right?

[00:13:35] The goal of that has been around since Don Kirkpatrick, you know, sort of first started

[00:13:39] mapping some stuff out.

[00:13:40] So was that 60 or 40 years ago?

[00:13:44] And so that's always been there.

[00:13:46] Where we saw a gap was the time lag between when a learning intervention takes place and

[00:13:54] when it might impact KPIs or P&L or that sort of stuff, right?

[00:13:59] Like that, you think about a well-executed leadership development program that genuinely improves

[00:14:04] the leadership capabilities.

[00:14:06] If we say, you know, the lagging indicator here, the thing we want to measure is retention.

[00:14:11] Let's say, right?

[00:14:13] It's going to be months before I finish the program as a learner.

[00:14:16] It's going to be months before I've got my head wrapped around these concepts and started

[00:14:20] putting them into practice.

[00:14:21] And it's going to be months before the people that were already on their way out the door

[00:14:25] are no longer on the way out the door, right?

[00:14:27] That we've closed that loop.

[00:14:28] So you could be 19, 18 months between events and KPI, which of course means that you can blow

[00:14:35] massive holes in that argument of causality, right?

[00:14:38] Because a lot of stuff happens at that time.

[00:14:40] So we said, well, there's a whole dark spot here between events and eval forms, right?

[00:14:48] Like do people like the session to their member stuff and KPIs?

[00:14:51] And it has to do with behavior change.

[00:14:54] What's happening for them personally, and then how it's observed by people around them.

[00:14:58] And so what we wanted to do was turn the light on and be able to show the behavior change

[00:15:04] efforts that people were focused on.

[00:15:06] So to directly answer your question, William, what we are measuring is two things.

[00:15:11] It's the self-reported behavior change.

[00:15:14] What am I working on and how am I progressing?

[00:15:16] And then it's the observable behavior change as recognized by the people that interact

[00:15:21] with that participant.

[00:15:23] 360?

[00:15:24] 360?

[00:15:25] Yeah, we built, yeah.

[00:15:26] 360-ish, right?

[00:15:27] But hyper-specific to this person is experiencing this behavior change.

[00:15:32] What are you seeing?

[00:15:33] Sort of thing.

[00:15:34] So it's not performance-based.

[00:15:36] And that's a critical piece with it.

[00:15:37] And probably one of the biggest stumbling blocks that we had out of the gate was that

[00:15:42] people started pegging us as a compliance tool and measurement, like a performance measurement

[00:15:47] tool.

[00:15:48] And both of those are a kiss of death.

[00:15:50] Because what we're really doing is helping an individual who's saying, I want to be a

[00:15:54] better listener, going back to our earlier example.

[00:15:57] And I need a vehicle to keep me on track with that, to measure my progress, to bring in people

[00:16:02] from around me to support me.

[00:16:04] If I feel like I'm being judged or rated based on that, right?

[00:16:08] I'm never going to tell the truth.

[00:16:10] In fact, I'm probably not going to engage.

[00:16:11] And it's going to feel like homework, which means I'm not going to do it.

[00:16:14] Right?

[00:16:14] Right.

[00:16:15] So that's a really important piece, is that we're looking at the self-reported data around

[00:16:19] things that matter to the participant based on the learning session.

[00:16:22] Which I think is kind of always the, I think for me anyway, the reason why I've always had

[00:16:29] a distrust in learning in the work.

[00:16:33] I know it's important.

[00:16:33] But if I know my leadership is looking for certain things after I go through trainings,

[00:16:42] I'm going to present that way because I need to keep my job.

[00:16:46] Right?

[00:16:46] And so breaking through that barrier has always, I think in my mind, been really cloudy.

[00:16:52] Who's the buyer here, Chris?

[00:16:54] Are we looking at the learning organization within?

[00:16:57] Is this the C-level?

[00:16:58] Is it HR?

[00:16:59] Who are you guys talking to in this process?

[00:17:01] Yeah.

[00:17:02] So we're at a really interesting transition, not transition, but expansion point in the

[00:17:06] business.

[00:17:07] For the last eight years, we've been working exclusively with training providers, solo

[00:17:14] practitioners right through to the global juggernauts.

[00:17:17] But the ones who are going in and pitching leadership development as the example, they use Actionable

[00:17:21] as a differentiator and a way to say, we're going to prove the impact.

[00:17:25] Over the last 18 months or so, we've had an influx of inbound interest from transformation

[00:17:32] departments and senior L&D folk inside larger corporate direct.

[00:17:39] So this is new for us.

[00:17:41] We've only done maybe a dozen projects where we have worked directly with the client organization.

[00:17:47] Historically, it's been consulting firms.

[00:17:49] What we've decided to do is cap the number of training and consulting firms that we work

[00:17:54] with and continue to sort of strengthen that base while we expand into supporting larger

[00:18:01] organizations directly.

[00:18:03] What's your take on learning from a corporate perspective or a personal perspective?

[00:18:15] If I want to learn active listening, it's self-help at that part.

[00:18:21] I want to learn it.

[00:18:22] I'm invested in learning it.

[00:18:24] If you're giving me, with the resources that are going to train me, then you've got a way

[00:18:29] for me to kind of stay on path and get better.

[00:18:32] If the company tells me I need to be an active listener or be a better active listener, I'm

[00:18:39] less interested in that.

[00:18:40] Right.

[00:18:41] And again, that's my personality.

[00:18:43] Sure.

[00:18:44] No hate for anybody else.

[00:18:45] But like, is it centric as you've seen it?

[00:18:49] Is it centric around the employee and what they want to learn?

[00:18:54] Or is it centric around what the company wants them to learn?

[00:18:58] Or I'm going to put the individual's desires inside the company's desires.

[00:19:03] Because it's fascinating, right?

[00:19:05] Because we see this.

[00:19:06] Where actionable doesn't tend to work is when it's mandatory compliance training that no

[00:19:11] one wants to be at and no one cares about.

[00:19:13] The follow through is going to be pretty low.

[00:19:15] Right?

[00:19:15] Like no tech in the world is going to solve that lack of interest.

[00:19:18] Right?

[00:19:19] Didn't care.

[00:19:20] Still don't care.

[00:19:21] Exactly.

[00:19:22] Right?

[00:19:22] Do I want to improve this?

[00:19:23] No.

[00:19:23] I just want to watch the flipping video so that I can check it off my compliance list.

[00:19:27] Right?

[00:19:27] Sure.

[00:19:28] Yeah.

[00:19:29] So that doesn't work for what we're doing.

[00:19:32] Where we do play really well, though, is where an organization says, we need to develop

[00:19:38] our leadership.

[00:19:38] I'm going to keep coming back to leadership.

[00:19:39] It's not the only use case, but we'll use that as an example.

[00:19:42] Um, we need to develop leadership amongst whatever the director level and people show up to that.

[00:19:49] Some are keen.

[00:19:50] Some are coming in as prisoners, but they're coming.

[00:19:53] What we, what we coach the designers of those programs on is to say in this session,

[00:20:03] we're going to provide you with some best practices on stuff.

[00:20:06] None of it's going to make any difference if you don't care and you don't want to apply

[00:20:11] it.

[00:20:11] So my challenge to you says facilitator through a facilitation guide to participants is, sorry,

[00:20:19] we've actually got the end of this, uh, the hurricane right now and my windows open.

[00:20:23] So it's super nice.

[00:20:25] Oh, you're good.

[00:20:25] You're good.

[00:20:27] I was wondering, uh, yeah, I was wondering, I'm like, why is it so hard to hear you?

[00:20:36] Chris.

[00:20:37] Are you outside in this hurricane?

[00:20:39] We'll edit.

[00:20:40] We'll edit.

[00:20:41] We'll edit.

[00:20:42] We'll edit.

[00:20:42] We're going to turn my fan off to keep back.

[00:20:43] Report it.

[00:20:44] Report it.

[00:20:45] Report it live.

[00:20:46] Chris Taylor is brother.

[00:20:48] He's like, you don't want my fans.

[00:20:50] Screw you.

[00:20:50] We're going hurricane style, bitch.

[00:20:54] Oh man.

[00:20:55] We'll edit.

[00:20:56] You're good.

[00:20:57] Perfect.

[00:20:57] There's no editing here.

[00:20:58] Get out of here.

[00:20:59] Take it all.

[00:21:00] It's great.

[00:21:04] So the prisoners and the active learners, they want to learn.

[00:21:09] Now the facilitator is then the one that has to get all of the audience over the home.

[00:21:15] Yeah.

[00:21:15] And the way that we do that, so we've got, okay.

[00:21:18] So zooming out for a second last year, we had 900 clients, uh, use the platform.

[00:21:24] We've got literally millions of data points around what actually works for driving, you

[00:21:29] know, ongoing behavior change.

[00:21:30] And we're able to share that back with the folks that we work with.

[00:21:33] So the person designing the training, uh, we can share best practices with them.

[00:21:38] And a couple of things we know empirically to be true.

[00:21:42] Number one is you want less content and more context in the session, right?

[00:21:48] We need more time and space for people to go, do I care enough about this to actually

[00:21:52] want to do something with it?

[00:21:53] Because what we found this fascinating and sort of like rekindled my faith in humanity

[00:21:56] is that if you give people enough time to think about it and talk about it, even if they

[00:22:01] came in as a prisoner, we see 93% of people in the sessions will find something in there

[00:22:08] that is relevant to them personally.

[00:22:11] And if the corporate purchasing decision has sort of set the guardrails on what the content's

[00:22:16] going to be and know that all of this is going to advance the company for William, the

[00:22:23] resistor to choose this little piece of it and move that forward is awesome.

[00:22:28] Now, William's got a sense of autonomy and the organization is moving in the direction that they

[00:22:32] want without, you know, sort of sheep dipping everyone of like, here's exactly the 12 things

[00:22:37] you need to do differently because a none of us do 12 new things.

[00:22:42] That's not how we change.

[00:22:43] And B we need to be doing stuff that matters to us if we want to have that change last.

[00:22:49] Sorry.

[00:22:49] What was the question?

[00:22:54] I don't even know what the question was at this point.

[00:22:57] A great facilitator versus horrible facilitator.

[00:23:00] There's a piece of that.

[00:23:01] So, no, this is a new question.

[00:23:03] Oh, new question.

[00:23:05] So, I often say you can have inferior tech on a superior process and work.

[00:23:16] Yep.

[00:23:16] You cannot have superior process or superior tech on an inferior process.

[00:23:21] A hundred percent.

[00:23:21] And it works.

[00:23:22] Yeah.

[00:23:22] Now, going to facilitation.

[00:23:26] We've all been facilitated in different ways.

[00:23:30] And we're going to take the judgy, judgy-wudgy out of all of this stuff.

[00:23:35] Some of it is subjective and some of it is not.

[00:23:39] Some of it is completely objective.

[00:23:41] Some people just suck at that.

[00:23:44] So, how do you – because you're looking at results over time to improve back in ROI, improve back behavioral change, et cetera.

[00:23:53] If they're a horrible facilitator, can we get there?

[00:23:58] Yeah.

[00:23:59] Yeah.

[00:23:59] So, this is one of the reasons, William, why we controlled the people that we were working with for the first eight years, right?

[00:24:06] We're only working with professional facilitators who have been in business for a while, have decent business size, which would suggest that they're decent at what they do.

[00:24:15] Interestingly, though, part of the actionable product suite is a manager-led conversation format where the manager is facilitating.

[00:24:25] But we don't use that word because it freaks everybody out.

[00:24:28] Right.

[00:24:28] But it's the small F facilitation to mean like guided discussion, right, around the thing.

[00:24:33] And what we found is that those managers who are not professional facilitators, some of them are literally like handshaking reading off the sheet of paper, can still drive meaningful change if the content to context ratio.

[00:24:48] In other words, new information to questions is appropriately distributed because it's usually – okay, I'm going to go back one step.

[00:24:58] Because when we look at good facilitators, it's like good – how do we measure that from a – well, the question of like good at doing what?

[00:25:06] Like what are we trying to do?

[00:25:07] Because if it's around enjoyment in the room and evaluation forms, then yeah.

[00:25:13] It's going to be the change.

[00:25:14] It's going to be the long tail change.

[00:25:16] Yeah.

[00:25:16] And if it's the long tail change, then it's really not about the experience in the room.

[00:25:21] Of course, it's nice when it's better.

[00:25:23] But it's around did I find something in here that was relevant to me?

[00:25:26] And that can, 93% of the time, be found if there's enough space for question and reflection.

[00:25:33] And so it's usually less about the quality of the facilitation and more about the structure of the session as far as that content context piece in driving change.

[00:25:43] How does somebody – this might be more for my own identification.

[00:25:49] How does somebody commit to or create those little behaviors to then become a better learner?

[00:25:58] As in like through the platform or in general?

[00:26:02] In general, but through the platform, yeah.

[00:26:04] Sure.

[00:26:05] All right.

[00:26:06] So I'll walk you through the platform and then explain the behavior science behind those pieces.

[00:26:10] And then three or four hours from now, we can move on to the next question.

[00:26:14] I'll give you the short version.

[00:26:15] So actionable land, last 20 minutes, 30 minutes of a session, facilitator pops out a QR code.

[00:26:22] People scan it with their phone because we all learned how to do that during pandemic.

[00:26:26] And then they're presented with a set of pre-structured commitment.

[00:26:32] And so what that looks like is when something happens, instead of doing this thing I used to do, I will do this new thing because it matters to me for these reasons.

[00:26:43] That structure of when instead of I will, it was BJ Fogg sort of identified that 30 years ago.

[00:26:50] Duhigg wrote about it.

[00:26:51] Michael Bungay-Stanier came up with that exact framework in the new habit formula.

[00:26:55] But it's all the same behavior science research.

[00:26:58] We need something that is triggered by visceral cues, right?

[00:27:02] Something where it's like when I cross the threshold into my office, like, okay, something just happened.

[00:27:08] It wakes our brain up, right?

[00:27:10] Instead of going straight to my computer, maybe that's a thing, right?

[00:27:14] It's not a bad habit.

[00:27:15] It's just a thing I naturally do.

[00:27:17] I will do one push-up as an example if we're sticking with the health regime.

[00:27:23] One push-up.

[00:27:24] Yeah, one push-up.

[00:27:25] BJ Fogg uses this term.

[00:27:27] You can accomplish that.

[00:27:28] Exactly.

[00:27:28] It's laughably small, which means my sort of litmus test on it is it's easier just to do it than it is to justify not doing it.

[00:27:37] Right.

[00:27:37] Then we'll do it, right?

[00:27:38] And then, of course, once you're down there, it's easier to just keep going, right?

[00:27:42] Do a few more.

[00:27:43] Sometimes literally easier to just keep going than to get back up.

[00:27:45] But that's it.

[00:27:47] And then the because matters, the why behind it, actually writing that out and then being reminded of that later is part of what keeps us on track with the change.

[00:27:58] So that's how you can structure a commitment to behavior change.

[00:28:01] You can do this for New Year's resolutions.

[00:28:03] You can do this for whenever you're committing to a big change.

[00:28:06] Try to chunk it down into the next logical step and run it through that process.

[00:28:10] What's really important is finding the Goldilocks.

[00:28:13] So in the actual platform, the program designer can pre-write those or you can leave a blank and let the participants in the room decide.

[00:28:22] The sweet spot is when you pre-write them and then let the people in the room modify them because they know what good looks like based on the templates you've laid out.

[00:28:30] Otherwise, they end up with just garbage.

[00:28:33] Right.

[00:28:33] And if you're like, I will do better.

[00:28:35] It's like, well, that's not really something that's easy to stay on track with.

[00:28:40] So that act of autonomy of the participant having a sense of ownership in the journey is really important.

[00:28:48] Actually, can I talk to that for a second too?

[00:28:50] Yeah, of course.

[00:28:51] Go for it.

[00:28:52] AI.

[00:28:54] Right.

[00:28:54] Everybody wants to talk about AI these days.

[00:28:56] Yeah.

[00:28:56] We were ahead of the curve on way too many things.

[00:28:59] I know.

[00:28:59] Exactly.

[00:28:59] Just dun, dun, dun.

[00:29:00] Sound effects.

[00:29:03] Monorail.

[00:29:04] So we used to have this very, I wouldn't call it AI, but this very complex algorithm that would help you figure out when you should get nudged by the platform to check in on your commitment.

[00:29:15] Right.

[00:29:15] On a bit of a hunch, we ripped that out about two years ago and let the participant choose super basic.

[00:29:23] What days of the week?

[00:29:24] What time of day?

[00:29:24] Do you want text or email?

[00:29:26] They choose.

[00:29:28] The engagement rate and the sort of like sustained engagement rate went up.

[00:29:31] I don't even know what the number was.

[00:29:32] It was like 40%.

[00:29:33] It was something substantial where it was like, well, that's a no brainer.

[00:29:35] If you just ask them, maybe they'll tell you.

[00:29:38] Give them a sense of ownership in the change process.

[00:29:42] Stop telling people what to do.

[00:29:44] Stop saying, do it exactly this way.

[00:29:46] This is Dan Pink's drive, right?

[00:29:48] 15 years ago.

[00:29:49] This is, we need that sense of autonomy over time, technique, task, and team.

[00:29:55] Any of those things.

[00:29:57] Who I do it with, what I'm doing, when I'm doing it, and why.

[00:29:59] If we can give people more control on that, the likelihood of the change happening goes up dramatically.

[00:30:05] So Ryan and I interact with biases, especially historically in recruiting.

[00:30:12] Yep.

[00:30:13] So recruiters and hiring managers have all kinds of biases.

[00:30:17] Do you see bias in any, towards the facilitator or towards the content, or even towards the context in what you do?

[00:30:27] Like from the, from the person that's trying to learn something, is there any biases that kind of pop up from time to time?

[00:30:35] I mean, yeah.

[00:30:36] A hundred percent.

[00:30:36] I think there's, there's two interesting areas in there.

[00:30:38] I feel like if we were at a bar with a beer, that answer would have been very, very different.

[00:30:44] Yeah.

[00:30:45] The way he is like.

[00:30:47] Yeah.

[00:30:49] Shot.

[00:30:50] Come around.

[00:30:52] I think there's two interesting pieces of play there.

[00:30:55] One is actually the bias of the participant and the other is the bias of the people looking at the data around the participants.

[00:31:02] Yes.

[00:31:02] Okay.

[00:31:03] So for the participants.

[00:31:04] Real quick, before you get into that, my previous question around trying to make your leadership, the perception to your leadership, happy.

[00:31:14] You know, that you've, that you've consumed it and you're actually doing it.

[00:31:18] Incorporate that into your thought there.

[00:31:19] Cause I, you just kind of.

[00:31:20] Defined happy.

[00:31:22] Yeah.

[00:31:22] Yeah.

[00:31:22] Totally related.

[00:31:23] That's actually, thank you for bringing that back.

[00:31:25] So number one, we'll talk about participants.

[00:31:27] It's interesting to watch.

[00:31:29] So we were looking at daily behavior change data.

[00:31:32] So we've got this treasure trove there, but then we also add in the before the session, after the session, but before I've tried to shift the behavior.

[00:31:40] And then after I've tried to shift the behavior.

[00:31:41] So we get these three interesting before and after, before and after sort of trend lines.

[00:31:46] What I find really rewarding.

[00:31:49] Keep in mind, this is not our content, right?

[00:31:50] We're not even in the room.

[00:31:52] Right.

[00:31:53] Watching people asked.

[00:31:56] Okay.

[00:31:56] We'll go back to that example of, you know, active listening.

[00:31:59] So how strong do you feel your active listening skills are?

[00:32:02] And they rate themselves an eight before the session, or maybe it's a seven.

[00:32:05] Then they go to the session and they rate themselves a nine because now I know so much more.

[00:32:09] And then you watch it and a month later, it might be a four.

[00:32:13] And it's not because they got bad at it.

[00:32:15] It's because they became more self-aware around it.

[00:32:18] Right.

[00:32:18] And so the, there's a, there's a personal bias that can actually get reduced through the act of behavior change and practicing that, those behaviors.

[00:32:25] Right.

[00:32:27] Looking at the participant, sorry, looking at the people, looking at the participants.

[00:32:30] And Ryan, this goes back to your question as well.

[00:32:32] The most common objection or, or sort of assumption that we get is, well, people are just going to rate themselves a 10 every day.

[00:32:39] Just for context, when people are rating their progress.

[00:32:41] So they commit to the listening thing.

[00:32:43] Then they get the nudge that reminds them and says, Hey, William, here's that thing that you said you were going to do.

[00:32:47] You're going to, you know, when instead of I will, how's it going today?

[00:32:50] You rate yourself one to 10.

[00:32:52] And then you can journal about why you're a nine today.

[00:32:57] One of the assumptions that can come from typically very compliance based organizations, like, well, everyone's just going to rate themselves tens.

[00:33:04] Like interesting.

[00:33:05] There's just this implied assumption.

[00:33:07] People are going to.

[00:33:08] It's a bit jaded.

[00:33:09] It's cynical.

[00:33:10] Yeah.

[00:33:10] Run with that.

[00:33:12] I would think in that moment of self-reflection, people would actually rate themselves appropriately.

[00:33:21] Honestly, Ryan, it's probably one in a thousand people that do that.

[00:33:24] Like tens or just like that you can tell when it's a throwaway check-in.

[00:33:28] So it's like the same numbers with no journaling.

[00:33:30] And that to me, what I really encourage, and this is a shift for some HR folks, is that the data is not, it's not absolute.

[00:33:38] It's not empirical.

[00:33:39] It's meant to be a way, it's meant to be a focusing exercise around where do you shine your light?

[00:33:45] Where do you ask follow-up questions?

[00:33:47] Where do you dig in a little bit more?

[00:33:48] Because if I had a whole team of people, and this I don't think literally has ever happened, but if I had a whole team of people that were all checking in at tens, I might look at what is the relationship there between that group's manager and that team.

[00:34:00] Right.

[00:34:00] Right.

[00:34:01] But you're right, Ryan.

[00:34:02] It almost always becomes a self-reflection that has a level of authenticity to it, or at least as honest as they can be.

[00:34:13] But watching the people debrief the data where they can start to assign value to a seven, right?

[00:34:22] It's like, I rate it up a seven.

[00:34:23] It's like, seven, good.

[00:34:24] It's not great, but good.

[00:34:25] It's like, well, but relative to what, right?

[00:34:27] Like what we really want to look at is the change over time because your seven might be my four, right?

[00:34:32] Or whatever.

[00:34:33] Right.

[00:34:33] Right.

[00:34:33] And so it's really about over time.

[00:34:35] And so there's a little bit of unlearning to be done around how we use data like this when it is self-reported.

[00:34:43] There's a whole camp of people that would say it's not useful if it's self-reported.

[00:34:46] I wholeheartedly disagree, but it's not empirical.

[00:34:50] We need to look at it through the lens of what questions does this raise?

[00:34:53] Where should we pay attention?

[00:34:55] Well, some of that is also when you ask the people around them to see the change.

[00:34:59] That's where you start.

[00:34:59] That helps.

[00:35:00] Right?

[00:35:01] Yeah.

[00:35:01] So you can get some other things to help validate that I'm a seven.

[00:35:06] Well, if everyone else says you're a seven, you know what?

[00:35:09] You got pretty good.

[00:35:10] You got statistically, at least you got pretty good chance that you are a seven.

[00:35:15] Yeah.

[00:35:15] Now, whether or not seven is good or bad and all that other stuff, you're right.

[00:35:18] There's a lot of unlearning.

[00:35:20] Well, you work all over the globe, right?

[00:35:22] And it's interesting to watch Australians as a nationality.

[00:35:25] I was going to say it's a species.

[00:35:26] No.

[00:35:27] As a nationality.

[00:35:28] They'll rate themselves an average.

[00:35:30] Australians as a species.

[00:35:31] Title.

[00:35:32] It's a headline.

[00:35:33] That is the title.

[00:35:35] Australians as a species say they're stupid.

[00:35:39] Smart.

[00:35:40] They're higher on themselves.

[00:35:41] They give themselves a low rating, right?

[00:35:43] As a starting point.

[00:35:44] It's fascinating to watch.

[00:35:45] So we got some interesting cultural norms coming out, too.

[00:35:48] Do you find across – maybe across – I don't know.

[00:35:50] This might be too general, but across the board.

[00:35:52] Yeah.

[00:35:53] Do you find that performance ranking of an employee, whether they're a one being the worst, five being the best, three kind of in the middle, correlates to how they grade themselves?

[00:36:06] They're like the lower performing grade themselves higher.

[00:36:09] Higher performing grade themselves lower once they get to that part.

[00:36:14] Not on that comparison, Ryan.

[00:36:16] But what I do find – and this is more anecdotal – but what we do find is that the people who are your top performers in the organization are typically going to be the ones that are most engaged with the change process and most willing to share openly.

[00:36:31] So you get richer data sets in there.

[00:36:34] And there is a correlation there where you've got people – well, yeah.

[00:36:38] The people that are sort of a two-three on the five-point scale are typically not always going to be the ones that are just less engaged in the process in general.

[00:36:46] What's interesting to me, though, is that we've had a whole number of countless saves where someone is on their way out.

[00:36:54] But for whatever reason, having the daily prompt in the journal, they felt comfortable sharing things in there that their manager could pick up and save that person from exiting the organization, which is very cool.

[00:37:05] Oh, that's fantastic.

[00:37:06] That's interesting.

[00:37:06] Ryan, piggybacking your question, I can see – not controversial statement – I can see women being harder on themselves with change.

[00:37:18] I don't know that.

[00:37:19] I have no data to support that statement whatsoever.

[00:37:22] It's just I can see that happening.

[00:37:25] I can see them wanting change probably more than men.

[00:37:29] Sonag and generalization on both sides.

[00:37:33] I can see men being a little bit more inflexible as it relates to change, especially at the executive level.

[00:37:38] Is that like white men over 50?

[00:37:41] That group?

[00:37:41] 100%.

[00:37:41] A little bit.

[00:37:43] Generational too, probably.

[00:37:46] Yeah.

[00:37:46] Could be.

[00:37:48] I can see women being – I can see women wanting change, like the consumption of change, them being more apt.

[00:37:55] But I can also see the grading part of them being a little bit more harsh, maybe realistic.

[00:38:01] Like men pop out of the womb and they're automatically confident about whatever they're about to go do.

[00:38:10] I was catching 10-pound bass by the age of like minus four.

[00:38:15] Just happening.

[00:38:16] Just boom.

[00:38:17] So I don't know if you have any data to support any of those types of things or debunk any of that.

[00:38:22] Yeah, we don't capture demographic data somewhat intentionally.

[00:38:26] But what I have found interesting along those lines is, again, coming back to the idea of bias and assumptions, we for a very long time, actionable was utilized to frontline leadership programs and maybe up to mid-manager.

[00:38:42] It was never even stated.

[00:38:43] It was like the implied assumption was that executives wouldn't care about this.

[00:38:46] They're far too busy.

[00:38:48] And what we've found is that, A, a whole bunch of our consultants that we work with believe that, right?

[00:38:55] And those that don't believe that have some of the highest levels of engagement from the executive groups going through this, which I think is just fascinating.

[00:39:03] Because in many cases, these are very large public organizations.

[00:39:07] They've got a whole team of admins.

[00:39:09] They don't usually do their own email in most cases.

[00:39:11] But they're getting a text from this app that they're responding to and they're engaging with.

[00:39:16] And they're loving it because it gives them that level of accountability and sort of an outlet for their thoughts.

[00:39:22] Every time I come across, well, it's never going to work frontline retail because they're not in front of a computer.

[00:39:28] And so then we resisted that for a couple of years.

[00:39:30] Then we leaned in and then, surprise, they love it because they don't get this kind of development.

[00:39:34] Same thing with unionized environments.

[00:39:36] Same things with one of my favorite clients was they did forestry.

[00:39:42] And so these typically six-foot-four burly dudes would go on site where there was no cell signal.

[00:39:50] Like, it just didn't exist where they were.

[00:39:52] And this is going back a ways.

[00:39:53] But what they did is their wives.

[00:39:55] And again, I appreciate the stereotypes built into this, but this is an honest to God story.

[00:39:59] Sorry.

[00:39:59] Their wives would put the prompt for their check-in in their lunchboxes and they would sit around on tree stumps, presumably.

[00:40:07] I don't know.

[00:40:08] Talking about their change and what they're actually going through, which I just, I would be a fly on that.

[00:40:14] Eating their bologna sandwich.

[00:40:16] Right?

[00:40:16] Oh, that's genius.

[00:40:17] I love it.

[00:40:19] Have y'all done anything at the board level, the board of directors level?

[00:40:22] That's a great question.

[00:40:23] We've done, we've certainly been brought in by the board to work with the executive team.

[00:40:28] Oh, but I'm like making the board better.

[00:40:30] Yeah.

[00:40:30] Yeah.

[00:40:30] It's a great idea.

[00:40:32] I would love that.

[00:40:33] First of all, there's so many dysfunctional boards.

[00:40:36] No.

[00:40:37] Having served on.

[00:40:38] Yeah, I know.

[00:40:38] I know.

[00:40:39] News at 11.

[00:40:40] You're so pessimistic on some things.

[00:40:44] Dude, I've served on boards.

[00:40:46] I understand how dysfunctional they are.

[00:40:48] Some of it was me.

[00:40:51] Every board I'm on is highly dysfunctional.

[00:40:54] I don't understand.

[00:40:55] I haven't served on a board that was functional.

[00:40:58] Is that correlation?

[00:41:01] Is that correlation?

[00:41:02] Or is that causation?

[00:41:04] I don't know.

[00:41:06] Well, I did have a real quick question is about skills.

[00:41:10] Everything that Ryan and I kind of for the last year or so, everything skill, skill, skill,

[00:41:15] skills-based hiring, skills-based promotion, skills-based this, that, the other.

[00:41:20] Have you seen that in your world?

[00:41:22] All of the things that are around skills?

[00:41:25] So a little bit.

[00:41:26] I'd say we're very clearly in the behavioral change space.

[00:41:30] And so where action was utilized for skill development is in going a layer deeper to say

[00:41:35] what is the behavioral elements that facilitates the likelihood of them practicing certain

[00:41:39] tactical things.

[00:41:41] So we get utilized in a lot of safety programs where it's literally the checklist of the

[00:41:46] 45 things on site.

[00:41:47] But the behavioral change is maybe becoming more self-aware or it's around just getting

[00:41:56] away from your technological devices before you walk on site.

[00:41:59] It's something really basic that creates the container for them to do the checklist of

[00:42:03] tasks.

[00:42:04] Right.

[00:42:05] Don't smoke weed before you get on the focal list.

[00:42:08] Got it.

[00:42:09] Yeah.

[00:42:09] Well, that's probably a good recommendation.

[00:42:11] All those girls are on the window.

[00:42:14] So cheese alert here.

[00:42:16] But so as you're talking, Chris, I'm thinking, okay, so in business to make money.

[00:42:22] Got it.

[00:42:24] Working with consultant firms, they're making big money.

[00:42:26] Got it.

[00:42:27] You're affecting lives, all that stuff.

[00:42:30] But when you sit back and reflect on what you've done over the last 17 years or so, where's

[00:42:36] the biggest impact?

[00:42:38] What grabs you as the biggest impact that you've made as a company?

[00:42:45] When I say cheese alert, because I kind of know what I would say if I were you, but I'm not

[00:42:49] you.

[00:42:49] So I have a way for you to come up with your own.

[00:42:52] I have a single answer.

[00:42:53] I think the couple of pieces that I want to throw out there.

[00:42:55] So the impact of the platform itself, I think consistently the most rewarding things that we

[00:43:02] see happen is someone's in a corporately purchased corporate skills program, like leadership

[00:43:09] and communications.

[00:43:10] And then the journal entries that they're making or their feedback things at the end is around the

[00:43:15] improved relationship with their kids or their spouse or how they took the stuff that they

[00:43:19] learned and translated it into being a better human, right?

[00:43:23] Part of the feeling I got.

[00:43:24] Yeah.

[00:43:25] It's hugely rewarding.

[00:43:26] And I'm so glad you brought it up because it's so easy, particularly as we amass more

[00:43:30] and more and more data to sort of zoom out further and further to be able to take it all

[00:43:34] into account.

[00:43:35] And yet it's, it's a hundred percent, those human stories that make such a big difference

[00:43:40] and honestly keep me going.

[00:43:41] And I think that's one of the reasons why we've worked with consulting firms for so long.

[00:43:45] And until recently, like not large consulting firms, million dollar shops, half a million

[00:43:49] dollar shops found that.

[00:43:52] And for me personally, what's kept me getting out of bed through all of this is we change.

[00:43:59] Well, they change, but utilizing actionable, their self-perception and their client perception

[00:44:06] of them and their services where they move from deliverer of great content to trusted

[00:44:13] advisor driving meaningful change.

[00:44:16] And that it was only recently that I sort of, that really landed for me going, we're, we're

[00:44:21] fulfilling an identity for people because the people who are really good at this consulting

[00:44:27] training facilitation work believe to their core that their purpose is to drive change

[00:44:33] and they've never really had a way to prove it or to scale it.

[00:44:37] So that to me, that, so that's the selfish answer, Ryan, but that's the piece to me is

[00:44:41] watching those people go through that transformation where there's a sense of identity that they

[00:44:45] step into.

[00:44:45] I love it.

[00:44:46] Love it.

[00:44:47] Last, last question for me.

[00:44:49] Go ahead, Ryan.

[00:44:50] No, no, no.

[00:44:50] Go ahead.

[00:44:51] Go ahead.

[00:44:51] Last question for me.

[00:44:53] And this is going to be a moment of vulnerability for you.

[00:44:56] As if that wasn't.

[00:44:59] I just like to give the, it's, it's really, there's the setup more of a preamble.

[00:45:05] So how are you using actionable today yourself?

[00:45:10] What are you working on?

[00:45:12] Yeah.

[00:45:14] So I, six years ago, I was a reasonably absent father.

[00:45:21] My wife and I are, but we were rocky, rocky.

[00:45:25] No one's ever heard this out loud before, including my parents, William.

[00:45:28] So thanks for that.

[00:45:29] No worries.

[00:45:30] So we were, so we were rocky.

[00:45:32] I was 40 pounds heavier than I am now.

[00:45:35] I smoked a pack a day.

[00:45:37] Um, and yeah.

[00:45:40] And I was untethered from reality.

[00:45:42] Like I had these monster dreams and I was working hard, but just on stuff.

[00:45:46] Right.

[00:45:47] Um, and so systematically I've worked on intentionally, I've worked on shifting all of those things

[00:45:54] in my life.

[00:45:54] So I live a healthier lifestyle.

[00:45:57] I, I don't smoke, uh, anymore.

[00:45:59] I, I attempt and I think I'm better at it.

[00:46:04] I still got a ways to go and being present as both a partner and a parent.

[00:46:08] Um, and so all of those things follow the methodology.

[00:46:12] Like I've been steeped in behavior science and talking to experts for the last, it rubs

[00:46:18] off as you see the chance it's happening on other people.

[00:46:21] So, um, thanks for that.

[00:46:22] I'm going to go cry in a corner now.

[00:46:24] So, well, first off, thank Chris.

[00:46:28] Thank you for wonderful episode here.

[00:46:31] Uh, we've learned a lot.

[00:46:32] It was great conversation, but also for, for sharing that with us.

[00:46:36] Cause I think that resonates probably with everybody that's listening to the call as

[00:46:41] well in some way.

[00:46:42] So thank you so much for, for, uh, sharing today and, uh, until next time.

[00:46:49] And congratulations on Billy, such a wonderful company.

[00:46:52] Thank you.

[00:46:52] Really doing great work and, uh, just keep it up.

[00:46:56] Keep going.

[00:46:57] I really appreciate that.

[00:46:58] Thanks guys.

[00:46:58] Thanks for having me on.