Avoiding Costly Hiring Mistakes with Sean Vassilaros Founder at KANNY

[00:00:10] This is William Tinkep and Ryan Leary and you are listening to the Use Case Podcast. Today we have Sean on from Kanny We're gonna be learning all about Kanny, all about Sean. Would you do us a favor Sean and introduce yourself and Kanny?

[00:00:24] I love the way you say that Well, and it's the hand motions as well. It's like yeah if you're watching it's like I gotta look at the camera. I gotta look at I can only do one thing at a time. We all know this. You're all good

[00:00:40] First of all, thank you for having me on the show you guys I've been working with William for a while and that nice to get to work with you, Ryan And so I love that you guys give

[00:00:51] An audience or an opportunity for founders like myself to come and talk about the things that are exciting to us like I don't know HR tech right So so first and foremost We won't hold that against you You just dropped your cool points like 10

[00:01:11] He said this was a judgment free zone So I don't know if that that's great or not My name is Sean. I I have been a serial entrepreneur I've been involved in multiple startups multiple exits And I've really just enjoyed Building and solving problems my latest

[00:01:33] Oh my previous adventure I was part of an organization called thread or thread research. You can see it at thread research dot com We built a tool that automates remote clinical trials So in the life sciences space healthcare heavily regulated dealing with personal data

[00:01:50] Learned everything that has to there to meet that there is to learn about dealing with Data and and and the regulations around that in healthcare and life sciences space I loved that that job. We built this application. We ended up selling it to private equity

[00:02:07] I stuck around for a few years as their chief operating officer and ended up Retiring and leaving to you know go and find what I want to do next in life I learned a ton about how to bring a product to market. I learned a ton about

[00:02:23] Working with customers How valuable important their input is into the actual iteration development process? And I I love being part of the technology and the the SAS world So then the last few years I've spent

[00:02:38] Doing a few passion projects number one is I teach a class at lehigh university So lehigh is on the east coast. It's right outside of philadelphia Are you physically in lehigh? No, i'm uh, i'm in southern california. Oh, well, then that's not exciting for me

[00:02:54] I'm actually from allen town Oh, okay. So i'm in i'm in hatfield. See that's exciting for me. So i'm right below quake account So if I said these two words to you do they resonate with you? You ready? Go birds

[00:03:10] Hell yeah, it does kind of kind of like dallas sucks. I'm sorry. Wait, what are we talking about again? No, hey, you know what on our on one of our last episodes it was all houston. It was houston astros texas rangers

[00:03:27] So this is good. No, that's fair. Yeah, it always balances out I grew up in the lehigh valley. So diehard birds fansixers flyers fills like all of that But I relocated to southern california. This is where i'll stay i'll raise my family here

[00:03:43] I love it out here. The weather here is way better. Yeah, but uh, but my heart still, uh, you know in allen town pennsylvania I went to maas high school if that things. Okay. Yeah, yeah

[00:03:53] So so I teach at lehigh university. Um, I am one of the very few probably remote professors Right, but the class that I teach I was brought in to teach a A capstone class right so it's a series of engineers. Um, and it's their

[00:04:09] typically a seat there their Junior spring senior fall so a full calendar year And they give they're given projects and work from local business other businesses that actually need to get done So it's their first opportunity to work together as a team

[00:04:26] It's the first opportunity to work together with clients and customers Um, and so I teach them how to project manage how to work with themselves to figure out and divvy up work How to estimate how to communicate That's cool. Get things done and it's been interesting last and

[00:04:41] And it's fun me coming outside of academia To to see how academia actually works and it's been it's been a delight. I work with some great people

[00:04:49] We do some really cool work. They did you go to lehigh? Was there a time I went to penn I went to penn state actually Yeah, yeah, yeah, so I went to uh temple Okay, right on. Yeah, I could have went anywhere shon

[00:05:02] I could have went anywhere. I chose temple There you go. They were really the only ones to accept my ass. Don't worry about that You wanted to be an owl and that's okay. I didn't even get a scholarship. They didn't even give me a scholarship

[00:05:16] That's how bad I was you were just grateful they took you. Yes That's pretty much what I was yeah, I got grants Yeah Yeah, perfect Well, I think is I got accepted at penn state only if I went in summer session

[00:05:32] So I had to go to summer at the time to get in And here is the dirty little secret. You're ready. I never finished college. I have 18 credits 18 oh my daughter is a junior in college right now. You have 18 left or you have a total

[00:05:47] So you did one year Well, I was there for two and a half years Judgment free zone you guys There's gotta be a fraternity involved here. There's a fraternity involved. Yes, we need to hear this story shon

[00:06:03] There's a little exciting story just dumb kid gets over committed to do lots of things and stop doing all of them for his fraternity, right? Like yeah I was going to class stopped work. I mean the whole thing

[00:06:16] My oldest brother John. Yeah, he went to uh, steven and fawston east, tuxas And uh Went for an entire year and never went to class And he was just wrapped up. He's a he's a theta kai. He was wrapped up in fraternity business Yeah, like Lot of work

[00:06:39] A lot of planning the next party making sure that everything's set in place. Think about it logistics project management Party learning a lot learning a lot preach Customer service to make sure that the yeah

[00:06:53] Gotta work with a sorority gotta gotta be able to interact with you know, like Just just think of the character he built Oh, jeez This is not the story. I was hoping to tell but

[00:07:09] No, but it's it's good that we have all of these shared experiences. All right. Okay fair enough So good. So so now i'm working with with leah university They're they're amazing and one of the really cool assignments

[00:07:20] I get to do with them is I've been pulled into what's called the global social impact fellowship program And what this is a genius program a gentleman there, uh named kanjan meta has set up where

[00:07:32] He has set it up so that students here in the us partner with students in a developing country So we work with sierra leone, kazakhstan the philippines and and india as well And they build a business. So it's like an entrepreneurial school

[00:07:49] They partner with a university in another college and they build a business And it's a whole opportunity for students to work together to bring something to market And so I'm working with three different countries right now. I just got back from kazakhstan said almost no one ever, right?

[00:08:05] Yeah, I just I just got back from kazakhstan where we spent two weeks working with universities there and we were bringing a Almighty kazakhstan has has one of the the worst kind of pollution problems there

[00:08:18] So we're bringing a technology to bear where we allow and educate elementary school age children on sustainable Environmental habits right to get habits early on to help protect the environment. So the students built this technology They built the curriculum they went and we pitched it to

[00:08:38] universities and we pitched it to the un And I mean everyone wants it and now we're going to deliver it and pilot it in the fall So that's one of the things that I get to kind of work on in that's awesome

[00:08:50] My free time and uh, so so those are the kinds of things that i'm working on right now And it's super fun. But the thing that that I'm most passionate about and the thing that I spend, you know Most of my my time on is

[00:09:02] um, the startup right so Little that's a little bit about who I am. Let me tell you a little bit about the startup you guys tell me what you think Right, so I've hired hundreds and hundreds of people in my career

[00:09:14] And and I love that. I feel like i'm good at it. Um, but all great hires All great hires. Yeah never had a bad hire in his life Lie Let's let's start by i'm gonna ask you what william always asked me. Yeah, how do you like your feedback?

[00:09:31] You asked about it. Louis got it. How do you like it? Uh, someone says serve cold later, but I'll take however you want So you say you hired hundreds of people

[00:09:44] Yeah, and and I look back and i'm like i'm I probably wasn't as good as I thought I was and And you know maybe a 60 success rate where success means they've stuck around longer than six months

[00:09:54] They were able to actually perform the job that they were hired to do they weren't completely toxic and hurt the team and so in hindsight like it was It wasn't as successful as I as I like it to be and hall of fame numbers Hall of fame no

[00:10:09] Most people like 60% is pretty good. There's some people. They're like 60. I'm like 99 percent. I'm like, okay. Good job Yeah, well that means 40% shit to bed Right exactly. Jordan hit 202 and double a ball Yeah, right

[00:10:25] These are these are hall of fame numbers. I think but they've got to be better and for me introspective like Why is it that way and here's a couple realizations you guys tell me what you think about these right?

[00:10:38] Number one the entire hiring process is curated by the candidate Right think about that the resume the interview they're linked in profile their social profile their references all handpicked package seal delivered to you In this negotiation and sales process By the candidate they built a narrative

[00:10:59] They built a narrative and good on them. That's what they should be doing They're trying to sell and get into a jump right and and most people are very genuine and very honest in that Entire approach and that that's most with an action until they can get another

[00:11:12] bump in salary then it's Then it's time to you know At a little bit of an accurate to that resume, but there's some crazy data out there We're like x percent and I don't remember off the top of my head

[00:11:24] So I don't want to quote it, but it's significantly more than you would think Of people fudge their resume like they exaggerate everything from exaggeration to lie to leave out right? And again, it's part of the sales process

[00:11:37] And no one's verifying this like it's very difficult to verify and validate this and so so let's say challenge number one is that it's like The whole process is curated by the candidate to get real kind of other information about the candidates incredibly difficult

[00:11:54] Third party validation. Yeah, right. So that's challenge number one challenge number two We just recently ran a poll on linkedin where it was what is most important when hiring Right and let's break it down into the three things hard skills. We know what hard skills are

[00:12:09] It's like can they actually do the job right soft skills like Can they manage their own time? Are they good communicators right like soft skills? And then the third one was character

[00:12:22] What do you guys think where do you think we have about 1500 responses on this poll? What do you think? People landed on those characters characters number one soft skills number two hard skills number three

[00:12:33] And I would I would I would hope it ended that way. I'm not sure character hit number one though Character hit 80 and then a number one by like 80 some percent. Yeah, wow To the point where it wasn't even Close no, that's not a fair fight

[00:12:50] Right. So point number two is that character is super super important Right and and and it's not just me saying that and I think you guys would probably nod your heads and say Yeah, you know we when we hire when we bring people in

[00:13:04] They're honesty their integrity their work ethic their respect their humility like these are things that are actually way Way more important than we probably even giving credit for okay. So point number two I think because that because that's tethered to values and culture retention and

[00:13:21] Sales and caring and empathy and all these other things That's hard to get to otherwise Right. So Sean as we're talking to me, you'll probably have a thought on this and this I don't want to deval us but keep it in back your mind

[00:13:35] Hiring for a full-time employee Number one Does that change if you're hiring a gig worker or a freelancer? Are you just hiring them for the hard skill? Does that change perception? So that's a super interesting question, right our audience is is like the the

[00:13:56] White collar, you know two to three years into their job to you know director VP level, right? So can his audience is just that and that's really where we've paid attention But let me flip that question back to you. You tell me you're hiring someone who you're like

[00:14:08] I just want them to edit my podcast for every day. Tell me what's what's how important is work ethic honesty integrity in just a contractor who's doing some editing jobs for you I think it depends on how hard up I am

[00:14:23] If I need something delivered and I'm behind From a gig worker freelance or perspective Here's what I have give it back to me. That's it You can take the boy out of the Philly you can't take the boy out of the Philly

[00:14:38] I've seen you on several projects. I've said you run several DIY projects and you brought in contractors And in almost every one of those cases You've had some problem And it was because they were assholes Yeah, but it but it wasn't to do

[00:14:58] Their job it was something to do with them communicate their ethics. Yes, etc Yeah, like you know I'm saying like I can't remember the tile thing or something like that Yeah, so if I got smarter I would hire for character all the time or a combination of

[00:15:13] But I think it really depends on how like if we need something that was needed five days ago If you can get it done and I can trust you're gonna get it done I'll probably take the work take the risk and And and do that

[00:15:27] I would not do that long term if I in long term. I define that let's go short. I mean long term for me would be like Maybe past a week or two Yeah Because that would be toxic

[00:15:42] I have a theory. Let me know what you think right? I think We have just been beaten into submission that it is acceptable to not ask or care about someone's character and just take what we can get

[00:15:57] And the reason for that is because it's impossible to figure that out right because it's a completely subjective Right, Ryan. You're gonna interview you're gonna ask You're a contractor and say hey are you honest? I am tip top honest

[00:16:15] No, no, he's he's he's interviewing contractors to put up drywall and you ask the question. Are you honest? I would trust the guy that says Yeah, most of most of the time most of the time

[00:16:26] Now look, I've learned I have learned long ago though bad example because drywall you need to be drunk or high And they do amazing They painters and drywall people they they need to be banged up to do well 100% 100% not all just the ones I deal with but

[00:16:46] But asking the question and getting that question getting that answer and again not being polarity I'm yes or no, but someone's saying, you know, I try to be I try my best to be honest sometimes I'm pushed into situations and I answer too quickly

[00:17:02] Or whatever and and I don't put my best foot forward, but I try I like to work with that person Every day of the week because they're at least at least they're telling the truth about their weaknesses and they're aware

[00:17:15] Aware enough and that's that's huge or are they scam already enough? To know what's smart Enough to be like, yeah, I know this guy wants to hear so yeah, dude. I just watched this tick tocker guy

[00:17:28] About a guy crossing the border. We're not gonna let him talk about this This is And the guy the police officer says hey, can I need to ask you a question? He said, you know, the larger question is in the bible I said I just saw that today

[00:17:46] And this guy takes Takes him on this rabbit hole of like listen, Jesus says this do you have a moment? Well, you don't know You have you have some time so we can talk a little bit about the guys like no, you're good. You're good

[00:18:02] You're talking about being saved and all this stuff and he looks back at the camera. I'm like, dude That he's got a trunk of coke like that is so awesome He played the game. He's got he's got 600 fucking kilos in his trunk

[00:18:16] Oh my god, and he played the game anyhow, that's all we're talking about. I That's fantastic. However, but you have a company that you run Yeah About that

[00:18:32] Yeah, so so great great dialogue on on when and why we think character is important in hiring and I think that that The more we talk to people everyone just kind of nods and accepts the fact that like

[00:18:45] I sometimes just need to put butts in seats and I'll take the crap roll on character And then you start looking at the data of how much that that that wrong hire costs you, right? I've seen examples where wrong hires cost everywhere

[00:18:58] I mean, there's a stat out there was like 30 percent of their salary could cost you But I would argue in time lost opportunity cost like there was a there was one example where this company they brought in a

[00:19:10] Vp of client services and assigned it to this account and within three months, right? That client had been fired was one of the biggest clients the client fired of the agency because of this person

[00:19:23] Like three people quit because of this person and then they had to pay this person to leave So all in and then lost new business pitches because of it. So all in It was a million to two million dollar loss because it was the wrong

[00:19:36] Is not the lifetime value of the client that lost Right, we're just not looking at those numbers and and so so anyway the cost of the wrong employee And and that has a varying scale itself, right?

[00:19:49] There's the just bringing in someone doesn't get along with a team or can't do the job all the way to You know fraud there's a recent example or a recent study out from the national association of fraud auditors where

[00:20:01] 75 percent of the people that they found that committed fraud fraud passed their pre-hire assessments Yeah These are not people that like they passed criminal background checks. They pass, you know employment background checks past references, right?

[00:20:15] And yet they're not committed fraud. They're curating that they're they could control the narrative Exactly, right So so anyway, I think I painted the picture of that that character is important But the third point like is that character is impossible

[00:20:32] To get someone's true character information like who they really are is impossible to get going back to the Ryan if i'm interviewing you ryan, are you honest? Yeah, sometimes There you go, there you go But if you if I said let me ask your three references

[00:20:47] These are your champions the people you give me these are people that are just teed up to to hit it out the park for you Make sure you get yes I never thought that was a good idea

[00:20:56] Yeah, most most people we've talked to and we've done hundreds and hundreds of market validation Research interviews is that very few people use references if they do they just use it to check a box or to cya

[00:21:08] They're like if that person goes wrong like well, we check the references as if that lets people off the hook Yeah, right so we can establish that that that process is Terribly difficult to get So can we have found a way to get candid but confidential peer reviews

[00:21:28] That protect the privacy and dignity of both parties, right? To help generate and bring forward Someone's character based on insights and scores I mean that sounds like a mouthful, but let me let me let me make it super simple

[00:21:44] There are people on this planet that are qualified to tell me about your character Ryan the people that i'm talking about are people that you've worked with in the past all the swifty Yeah, right your peers and your colleagues in the past

[00:21:59] Have the ability to tell me this is why I am unhirable see That's so fail your any report will be just amazing. I can't wait to watch. I'm starting to sweat stop Actually, you know, it's it's interesting because I'm thinking Every so often we have these conversations

[00:22:22] Where I lose train of thought because I started thinking about what the other person's saying and I'm thinking about What was the other one the guy was about it was about bad bosses or something

[00:22:31] And he had asked a question about a time when you had a good boss. Was it what was it? Yeah, and you could not find one Yeah, I think he thought I was like Like listening and I was like Oh

[00:22:47] And I and this is like one of those moments where I'm like, you know I I can pick a few out that I would think would say I suck as a person Because we've had bad working experiences together But I think when it came down to it

[00:23:02] post separation of working together I would hope that they realized kind of like what my point of view was what their point of view was and there Were some learning experience that they would talk about but i'm not quite sure how that would pan out

[00:23:17] That might be jobless And this what makes this conversation about characters super important but super uncomfortable for people right people right Everyone I can't control it. We all think we are just awesome across the board. Oh, yeah

[00:23:34] Right, we think that and and and I'll tell you too the people that aren't awesome the problem people They don't know they're the problem. Yeah, it's like stupid stupid people don't know they're stupid

[00:23:45] And so what happens is what we've seen is realization happen when people start seeing their canny score and report right? Oh my gosh, I that's that Yeah, they're like, oh my gosh. That's way better than I would have thought i'm humbled right this is awesome

[00:23:59] And i'm going to share or me I think it would be mostly depressing Naturally when we look at ryan's but but here's the thing here's my brother Use this parallel so so we uh, he's a huge soccer or football fan for those of you guys out there

[00:24:15] Football um, he's like every professional soccer player has this Spidograph of these five skills. It's like passing dribbling game awareness or whatever even when you look at the Spidograph right which kind of shows the

[00:24:28] The area of where you're really good and and if you're not good at something it's like an indent So you look like pac-man or you can look like a right an hour loss He's like every single professional soccer player

[00:24:38] No one has all five characteristics peaked out the best ones have like three and each other to a really low And and if we can think about that and say I want that information on me Right. I want to know if people think i'm

[00:24:54] Toxic in the workplace like the top performers. I think Want to know that information And and and it would be awesome for them to know it and then find a way to do something about it Can you be a top performer and not want to know that information?

[00:25:09] I don't know I don't think so. Yeah, I don't think you can I think that's part of what makes a top performer I'm thinking of the sports because we all like sports. I'm thinking if you're Uh You know pick your favorite player because as I

[00:25:25] I'm rewatching the last dance right now after the like first time And it's like the players that the role players they want to be role better role players They knew what they were supposed to be doing but they still want to be better at it. That's right

[00:25:40] So top performers. That's right. They're top. No matter what your role is. Yeah Yeah, I think if you if you're a top performer you want to know So that you can do something about it or it validates what you already know like, okay I am pretty

[00:25:54] I am pretty uh pretty good at communications or I am pretty You know supportive of other people whatever the things are that make up character And by the way while you brought up the the spider map. Do you have a character spider map?

[00:26:08] Uh for me personally no no for just in general. Yeah Oh, yeah, no these things are fascinating to and see so for example I'll read I'll I'll I'll show you a couple example. I'll walk you through a couple examples

[00:26:20] One is I've got an engineer right super hot on work ethic Super high on honesty Right, think about that for a second. Okay low low on other things like humility, right like uh and and That's okay, right?

[00:26:39] Imagine having that conversation with someone saying okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna interview Ryan. You're this engineer, right? And this is your spider graph. You're low on humility Your your medium on respect, but you're high on work ethic and high on honesty

[00:26:53] I know you're gonna tell me that hired hired hired right and so Fascinating thing like I think it's once we get all this data because we're getting an amazing amount and and great data That is you can't get anywhere else on the planet about the human workforce, right?

[00:27:06] When it comes to character like publish a series on look at the average spider graph from character by job role I mean think about what a business development person is maybe a little lower on work ethic

[00:27:18] But really high on these other things that are important. So so we're getting my my cardiothoracic surgeon Yes, I could care less if they have empathy. Yeah, or Don't care Can you fix me? Don't care. Yeah work ethic and honesty

[00:27:36] So do you see do do you see a disparity between what works and doesn't for organizations or It seems to be more successful So we're still real early. We're in just so you know, we're in the beta for users

[00:27:49] So right now we're looking for users to try this out and test out and get some results and and beat up What does it make sure the text working right before we launch it? So, um, I'm hoping that in the near future as that data comes pouring in

[00:28:01] We'll be able to go to an organization and say here's some things that we're noticing and some trends like That that might be super interesting to you So but think about that that information is in the in the interview process as an interviewer

[00:28:15] I get handed this this spider graph, right? I know out the gate You are high on honesty and high on work ethic. I'm like those are awesome Let's talk about respect, right? Why do you think people are are lowering you on this like and I

[00:28:30] I don't have time for idiots, right? Okay Now that I know that like let's be honest Now that I know that what we need you to do here is

[00:28:40] Let's not treat them like idiots and to their face, but you can come talk to me anytime and I'll happily About that imagine the development that can happen When we know that character data I do like how you said Don't treat them like idiots to their face

[00:28:56] right, I mean All managed people right? We know that things that are gonna look not gonna work. Yeah. Yeah Behavior who knows that but the top performers will want to change that behavior and and down the road

[00:29:09] Canny will be working to develop content to help you change that behavior A roadmap item is to have canny certified coaches who can help you you can register and and and and get

[00:29:21] Coaching for a finite amount of time to help you be more aware and then research and get better at these things. So So where do we go after Where do we go after the

[00:29:34] Say dim beta. What's the next what's the next thing? Good question? So so first thing is let's just make sure that we can Like the unknowns the hypotheses we're trying to figure out our number one Will people actually fill out these reviews without a ton of incentive, right?

[00:29:49] The research that we did was hey absolutely 80 to 90 percent of the people will say I will absolutely take Less than two minutes to fill out a review on someone that I know So the poll came back. It was 90 percent said they would do it

[00:30:03] 82 percent said they would do it regardless of whether they liked them or not Right, yeah, you have both sides of the aisle there. I think it's there's just as much pull on either side

[00:30:17] And that's a dangerous spot for us to play right? We do not want to be a vitriol place a place where someone goes to Right angry and try to take down it and play and we've put a ton of controls and checks and balances in place

[00:30:29] To make sure that one person can't tank you right? So how do they get how do you get their information? So here's how it works. There's some magic here that i'm not going to kind of go into

[00:30:39] But but here's a few things people want to know hey, how do you make sure that the people that that that That's not the same references. Yeah, should be able to review me like they're qualified to do it

[00:30:48] Well number one is everyone who logs into our platform has to log in using their linkedin credentials We know who you are We know a lot about you based on your linkedin profile your work history like all kinds of things about the overlap

[00:31:02] Yeah, we can verify and validate that you are who you say you are which is super important Right. So for example, if I have some guy that I don't I've never worked with but you know

[00:31:12] I have a personal feud with for whatever reason and you know take a number on that I guess right That person can't log in and review me and tank me right because

[00:31:23] He's in the way the canny algorithm is built so that it just validates those things those working relationships are important And whether you're a peer or a manager or a direct report that all impacts our very smart algorithm

[00:31:37] So so one of the things that would be is it is it on the roadmap that when we ask those people to review bobby To if you want if they want their candy score

[00:31:48] Yes, absolutely. So you don't talk about reviewing the virality the review. It's a one click review There's no obligation to become an account But at the end once you're done with it if you're like hey

[00:32:00] Oh, do you want this and so what happens is like you said the viral nature of this is built to start kind of taking off So once we once we kind of like pull the you know pull out the

[00:32:11] The or release the the engine then I think the viral nature of this is going to take off specifically for people that are curious and Here's the other thing like a credit score because this is actually more like a credit score than it is

[00:32:24] Like a reference checking tool because this is longitudinal So like your credit score you can opt to lock it right and just say hey I don't want anyone to look at this and that's fine

[00:32:36] As an employer it gives you the opportunity to ask the question which is why did you lock it? Let me see it and if they say no, right, let's talk about that. That's a signal Let's have a conversation that is super insightful information

[00:32:49] So but we give you complete control this is you have to opt in in order to show these things like it's all it's all You know done on behalf of this person not to this person And are we focusing on small businesses?

[00:33:02] Franchise the enterprise like good question is our target Let's let's talk about the two sides that one is from a user standpoint. This is really like I mentioned This is a a no cost service for anybody that's wanting to get a score report

[00:33:17] That's out looking for a job or looking for professional development So anyone can go in and do this and our target audience there those that have a year or two of experience because we're looking at your

[00:33:26] LinkedIn experience and your other you know public publicly available information to find your peers right all the way up to like VPs right we we've met with a lot of executive recruiters and both of them have said we don't really need this right now

[00:33:39] We do that our own way we have our own back to I don't believe that for I don't believe that for a moment that they have a tool I just believe they don't want to know

[00:33:49] They don't want to know because they need to make the hire. That's right I think there's a huge value in this at the executive level, but that's not what we're targeting just yet Right, there's and there's in the roadmap. There are additional products for you know academia for

[00:34:04] Executive for like blue collar like we can we can get there at some point, but right now Target to the to those that have LinkedIn profiles and use that to map their career Right and what if and I understand where you are today

[00:34:18] What if they don't have a LinkedIn profile because I've come across something that don't have Not not our audience right and that's a super edge case. We're just honestly all will recommend is like if you're serious about a job hunt

[00:34:32] You might want to use this thing. I want to go use this thing Yeah, all that people use like I don't know anyone that would hire someone that doesn't at all See that was an honest answer See it wasn't honest answer. I like a good spider web

[00:34:45] My chart is through the roof Here's the funny thing is I don't think I can get my own chart I want one like and I don't know that it'll be awesome because think about how many people I've had to

[00:34:55] Fire and let go in business building right? I make tough decisions and I'm gonna tell you right now I've screwed up so much. Oh, yeah me too people and unintentionally like this is just the nature of being an executive and a leader

[00:35:07] And it and it hurts me to this day right? That's just the way it is So I am super interested in my spider graph. I just don't think anyone will fill it out because they won't leave

[00:35:16] Oh, they'll fill it out. Right. You just don't want to see that data. No, no, I'm good with it I want to see it. I just so so how to okay So how does this work if I want if I want my graph? Yeah, what do I do?

[00:35:29] You go to uh canny.com right now kanny.com And there's a little bit of marketing information to tell you about what we're doing You click on the button for for users and there's an opportunity right there to sign up for our beta

[00:35:42] It's it's open for anybody to try I will tell you it's in beta and there's lots of things that we're figuring out Oh, yeah, it's part of it. If you want to help us test and give feedback, please do so like we want as

[00:35:52] But then you just go out and find the do you do the thing All built now and you have the ability so we we have three ways of getting reviews One is through our what we call canny match system, which

[00:36:02] Which right now is using all this technology to go and find people We're actually training a model right now to be able to get that better and better Our goal is to improve this this canny match system

[00:36:12] There's two other ways you can invite people to review you you can just go in and say Hey, here's the 10 people that I want to review me You can also go in and we give you a custom URL that you can post on your LinkedIn profile and say

[00:36:24] Hey, I'm doing this right if you want to and you've worked with me in the past click on this link If the wrong people review you that's okay our algorithm source it all out

[00:36:33] You don't have to worry about that but post it out there because one of our challenges right now Is that people get the email from canny and they're like this looks like a phishing attempt, right? Right, right. And so we've added content

[00:36:44] But now we're just really trying to get the word out there that this is While a brand new concept this is legitimate and we're using your data this way and not this way And it is and it is there to people categorize you is screening or as assessment

[00:37:00] Yeah, where do where do people where do people put you? We put ourselves in like the pre-hire assessment space But right they're very I mean no one focuses on two things this these are differentiators number one character only right

[00:37:15] Um people a lot of times confuse soft skills with character because soft skills are easy to figure out But character is difficult. So you know our key differentiators character our second key differentiator is Who gets asked to do the assessment?

[00:37:29] Most assessments is the candidate and that can be gamed people know how to do this and they actually hate doing them Right and in theory what we in our research

[00:37:37] We found that people do those assessments to check a box and then they move on and they they're very complex to read out And there's a value to those but ours is We actually have people that the candidate knows that we find fill out that assessment

[00:37:51] How valuable is that and over time this this this workflow gets pumped into the ats? That's exactly right. So right now we're building the system through our website just because we want to prove the model

[00:38:01] Right, but we have in our roadmap the very next thing we do is our integration with ats We think that at some point our customers who are recruiters primarily and then internal talent acquisition teams That they're going to access it through

[00:38:15] Whatever tools through one of their one of their ATS's And so how how do I get to see the hiring manager that's interviewing me? Oh, you want to see their score Yeah, I think that's genius right there's no reason that maybe not your market today

[00:38:31] But how do I as a candidate without just going to glass door or something more there's always glass Yeah, but you can't get hiring manager data There's there's a you know right now our model is You can only see your score and report

[00:38:47] And but but paying customers can see whoever they want to see So there's a gap that we're going to have to figure out which is I think it is awesome That a candidate would want to see their hiring managers

[00:39:00] Information. So there's a there's a model in there somewhere we can sort it out and figure it out But that is for sure got to be on the roadmap because yeah, I mean I I I could see I could see a corporation saying

[00:39:12] We want to be open honest ethical the whole bit right Are if you're going to be here as a hiring manager You're going to do this because we want candidates to come in and research as well. Yeah, we're not hiding anything

[00:39:27] Yeah, and I mean creating a product that allows a client or an enterprise customer to open up their Hiring managers court to someone that they're interviewing That those features and functionalities that they're easily built. They just need to be yeah

[00:39:43] I love the idea of that that level of transparency and I think candidates would love that too. It's only fair If you if you're asking me Then uh, then why can't I ask you? Yeah, I mean I don't mind you asking me about my character

[00:39:57] I love the mutual transparency right? I think that's the only way it works So I already you how are you thinking about doing integrations? Are you going to Do them natively or are you going to work through a system?

[00:40:11] Yeah, so we're doing all the diligence on that right now I think we are going to we have a A set of advisors who really know the space inside and out that are going to weigh in So once we kind of get through our beta efforts

[00:40:22] And we prove the model that it works and that people will buy it By the way fresh off the press. We got our first commitment to a paid customer for beta yesterday What? Yep golf clap golf club major east coast university

[00:40:36] So it's a big I'm kind of thinking I know The one you're thinking not the one. Oh, no, I don't I don't mix those right now Yeah, so the good news is that you know, we're proving the model that people will pay for this

[00:40:52] We're proving the model that people will do this And once we've gotten and check some of those boxes Then we're going to go all in on integrations because we think that that's just the way that it has to be

[00:41:02] I think probatively when you're talking to a prospect and they don't Prioritize character In that in that scenario that you put forth a while ago with the poll They're not a good prospect for you Like it's like let's let's just stop talking right now

[00:41:22] Let's just let's touch base in a couple years Yeah, maybe maybe you think about character differently But most but most candidates don't think about that when they're answering questions

[00:41:31] Like what are your biggest strengths and weaknesses? Well, I'm going to tell you what I either learned on tiktok to say or what my skills are If someone said to me hey, I'm what are your what are your strengths?

[00:41:45] Sorry, sorry ryan that hit home a little much there. No, will you just He just referenced at tiktok. That's okay Yeah Yeah, so it like we're actually putting out content right now to train candidates to weave their character story into the standard common interview questions

[00:42:05] Like hey, what are your strengths? I am really honest And I am you know, but at the same time I have a very strong work ethic And here are some examples of those things as opposed to saying

[00:42:18] That is technology and I worked on this project that did these things right and so if if candidates are trained that Actually employers care about that information more than they think Let's start having everyone make character focus of the hiring conversation

[00:42:33] Which is really what can he is all about and and and our push in our drive to do Last question for me No, no go ahead your ladies first How about them cowboys It's two against one here, man

[00:42:51] Ryan's gonna ask a way to co-host on the uh, yeah We've we've been relevant in the last 30 years and uh every other sport in dallas so uh So You've dealt with a lot of recruiters through the years. Yeah What do you just brought strokes?

[00:43:11] What do you think the character Spider-grap looks like for recruiters Remember they're gonna be buying your product. Yeah, no, no, this is I love you know why i'm asking this ryan. You know Okay, so here's what i'll say. I mean just like with every other job

[00:43:30] And recruiters are scaled differently I know some recruiters like literally all they did was pass resumes back and forth and they They maybe maybe didn't weren't trained well enough to know how to actually do the job and and and be helpful

[00:43:43] And then I've had recruiters that i'm like they have sent me two candidates Both of them were freaking awesome and we crushed it on one, right? So so just like with any other job you're gonna see a ranking but that but it's so interesting to say

[00:43:57] That some of them are going to be super high on work ethic and super high on let's say, um Honesty there are some that are going to be low on integrity because they're just trying to get the sale

[00:44:10] Right and so that'd be interesting. I think i'm gonna go back and and do a little noodle on what I think that Spidograph actually looks like I I wanted the industry. I wanted an industry report on recruiters and character. Okay, okay

[00:44:24] Because give me I think it would be i'm gonna have so much good data giving one year and i'll be able to Think it just be fascinating to then report back to the recruiters

[00:44:32] All the recruiters and say those in staffing those are that are corporate and they'll be able to say Here's here's what it should be if you're not If you're not in or working towards this, you know, again, you're a work in progress

[00:44:45] If you're not working towards this spidograph Then you're not going to be a great recruiter There you go. You might be able to go across any industry any position. Yeah, I'm just thinking about recruiters

[00:44:56] We're gonna be yeah, yeah, so here's and give them something to attain and work towards. I think it's great That's right. Yeah, but when you release that that research

[00:45:05] We'll send let us know. Yeah, we will send you a care package with a scrub brush a lot of soap Some bleach you can just well clean yourself. Maybe at that point. I know I'll never get another job in this city again

[00:45:21] I think honestly, I think we're not giving you enough credit I think it would be better than we think it is but at the same time look, let's go see the data Imagine Well, I think there's I think that

[00:45:33] I think the difference in what I think again just forecasting Years of experience. Yeah years of training. Yeah corporate versus staffing. So third party recruiting Completely different than corporate. Okay. So like I think you're gonna be able to then say to Robert Hafer a manpower

[00:45:51] Or somebody like that say, okay. Hey listen, you got these folks that are One to three years of experience. This is what spidograph looks like I love it. Okay. If you want that to be different Then these are the things that that impacts that that's exactly right

[00:46:06] Ryan, I'm I'm good man. You got anything else? I'm I'm good Sean This has been really probably one of the better conversations this week and it's we're halfway through. So that's that's a lot That's good. So out of the two that you had I'm in the

[00:46:22] We haven't this is our first one nor about Even Thank you Ryan will put the fly eagles fly the fly Into the music. Yeah the the intro we're gonna swap the music boom boom boom. That's just gonna happen

[00:46:39] We should just have a minute with scrolling eagles theme song and that will get more views. I think That's exactly what we're gonna do Brother, thank you so much for coming on. We appreciate you guys for having me. This has been awesome. All right. Take care yourself