Episode 6 | Dave Lu: Abundance Mindset Building ROI for the Future

[00:00:00] The scarcity mindset is one where people think of everything as a zero-sum game, that there's only a finite pie to work with and everyone has to fight for those pieces of the pie. And so when you come from a place that you don't have much, you are afraid to lose when you have. I'm very much about believing that the pie can be bigger. There's enough room for everyone.

[00:00:24] Welcome back to the Meg and Amy Show. Today we're going to be interviewing the amazing Dave Lu. He really is so incredible. But first, Meg, what's going on with you? Well, my goodness, it's a beautiful beginning of summer. I've got my oldest out traveling, got my youngest home from college, although you wouldn't know much of it because they tend to stay upstairs and not interact with us too much.

[00:00:53] I think I got a couple grunts. That's true. That's true. A few grunts and a, eh, yeah. What about you? I hear you got some big, exciting news coming up. Yes, yes. I am headed to Italy really soon. So it's been many years since I've been to Italy, so I'm due.

[00:01:11] My husband is there already, actually, living his great dream of doing a one-on-one cooking class for five days in the Tuscany countryside. I think that's like ready for Netflix special right there.

[00:01:31] I think so. Any of you who've ever tried Paul's food know that he is a talented chef already, and this is just going to add to his arsenal of gifts. So we are very excited about this. We're all about investing in growth and expanding talent here at the Megan Amy Show. But Amy, aren't you a little nervous about telling people you're out of town? And what's that going to do?

[00:02:00] Are we glad of that idea? Well, sometimes it's a potential safety issue. Oh, yes, yes, yes. But we actually use the service called Trusted House Sitter. This is not an ad, but Trusted House Sitter is just a really cool service that we've been using for a few years. And basically, you pay a pretty small amount. I can't remember. It's about $100 or $200 a year or something like that, and you can use it as much as you want.

[00:02:31] And the people who do the house sitting, likewise, they pay just a small amount, and they get vetted and background checked and so on. And then you establish these relationships, and they come and stay at your house, and it's fantastic. Such a good idea. And I'm sure they're having a great time because Oakland this time of year isn't too bad either.

[00:02:56] All right. So on to our guest, the incredible, generous, abundance-mindsetted individual, Dave Liu. What a get, right? For the Megan Amy Show. Yeah. He is a Silicon Valley tech veteran. He worked for Jerry Yang at Yahoo in his early days.

[00:03:19] He's a startup founder. He's an investor. He started an investment firm that focuses on Asian Americans. And he's also an Emmy Award winning producer. Meg, what is the name of the documentary he made? Well, you know, it's a sports documentary, which while I'm not a sports person, I am a big lover of sports television for some reason.

[00:03:44] 38 at the Garden, talking about Jeremy Lin, which I think is really, really cool. Sports stories are always the best, Meg, as you know, because they're often, you know, the outsider coming in and becoming a champion or just something. Like it's always like that hero's journey. Yes. Yeah. So, so this is one for folks to watch.

[00:04:08] And the last thing is that Dave recently launched his podcast, also called Hyphenation. So let's welcome Dave. Welcome, Dave. Thanks for having me, guys. Good to be here. Yeah. We're so thrilled to have you.

[00:04:36] All right. So Dave, I understand that May is your birth month. Yes, it is. And also the AANHPI Heritage Month. Yep. I was wondering, did your parents plan this on campus? Well, back then, I don't think there was an AANHPI Heritage Month. It was an AANHPI Heritage Month or an AANHPI Heritage Month. But no, it was, I guess it just coincided. And it's been, it's a very busy month for me, but it makes me very happy that it all coincides.

[00:05:06] It's a great way to celebrate the month. You've said that it's your busiest month of the year. Yeah. And I would argue that no one, certainly no one I know, who does more for this community than you. So tell us more about this busy month you had. Yeah. So I guess around AANHPI Heritage Month in May, I do a lot of talks, corporate talks and nonprofit talks, college talks.

[00:05:36] And it happens to be scheduled around that month because I am so vocal about AAPI issues. And so I get brought in by a lot of ERGs to speak to their, to either their group or to the company overall. I've been doing this for a few years now since the pandemic, after all the advocacy work I've done. And for me, it's more broadly a chance to, to mentor a lot of folks and reach a lot of audience that may be struggling with a lot of the issues I write about, scarcity mindset and getting, gaining power.

[00:06:05] And it's always great when there are other groups involved. Sometimes they will merge with, even though it's AAPI Heritage Month, they'll have the Latino group or the veterans group or others participate as well and co-sponsor. And so for me, as Meg has mentioned, it's like I love talking to people who feel othered or marginalized. And a lot of it is about gaining the power to, to, to not feel like that anymore. And so I've talked about a lot of issues of these things,

[00:06:33] but also about being more broadly, not feeling like we should be pigeonholed into one title or one role. I've been doing so many things like from investing to founding, to producing, to being an activist. And I feel like a lot of times we feel like we're pigeonholed into one corporate job that we are just in accounting or we're just doing marketing. But there's so many other things that we can do beyond kind of our job title outside of that, that we kind of, you know, in high school, we're so used to thinking about,

[00:07:03] I'm in the track team, I play tennis, but I also do like model UN and yearbook. All of a sudden, when we become adults, it all stops. Like in college, you can explore all these different things. But when you become an adult, you're just, your identity becomes that one job, your doctor, lawyer, accountant, whatever. Did you do all those things in high school? I did. I did too. Yeah. Same ones. UN, tennis, a bunch of those same things. But yes, yearbook. But yeah, and college continues, but I don't know why it stops after we're, you know, adults. We have hobbies, but you know, why can't we do other things?

[00:07:32] So I'm like, one of the projects I'm working on now is I'm writing a children's book because I have a five and nine year old. And so I've, I read to them all the time. So I want to write a book for them too. So yeah. Oh, I love that. So there's just a couple of things that you said that I think require further clarification. So you use the term ERG. What is that? Or employee resource group. So a lot of companies have a number of employee resource groups for their diverse groups. And, you know, they're usually ones that have the programming for that month.

[00:07:59] So I spoke at Starbucks and Nova Nordisk and Blackstone. I've spoken at Goldman Sachs and other places. And usually the ERGs are the ones that host me for the month and it's kind of part of their programming for the month for the whole company. But that's usually when I, that's why May is so busy and specifically May is so busy. So let me ask you about that because obviously we're in a really interesting moment culturally

[00:08:25] where the Robbie Starbucks of the world of the, you know, pushback on DEI and, and a lot of these groups, a lot of these ERGs are, are really struggling either for budget or for voice or whatever. Was this year different? And what are your thoughts on how do we keep the positive momentum on creating community

[00:08:50] while avoiding the backlash that, you know, whether it's warranted or not is, is a reality right now? Yeah. I mean, it, it was different this year. Um, I think a lot of these ERGs, they felt like their budgets were stripped and a lot of them couldn't. I, one actually committed to, to the speaker's fee and having me come. Um, they backed out the last minute, but I went, you know, for free and volunteer to go because I thought they needed to hear this message more than anything.

[00:09:20] And more importantly that, you know, these folks who do so much for the company, like bring so much value. They spend money on the most ridiculous things like a Christmas video, uh, for hundreds of thousand dollars, but they couldn't have a speaker come in to speak to their group who, who needs this kind of, you know, inspiration encouragement. Um, so for me it was more of a, Hey, you guys need to speak up on your own behalf because you deserve this, you know, and you, you, you know, you rightfully earn this. And so if you don't ask for it, why should they give it to you?

[00:09:49] I mean, you, it's a different, it may, you may think of it from a perspective of, well, it's, they just fired our head of DEI. So we don't have the budget anymore. I'm like, I'm pretty sure they have the budget. They're just not giving it to you because you're not asking for it or demanding it. Um, if you demand it and you actually throw some authority behind it, like, Hey, you know, you, you have a lot of Asian employees here that do the work for you. And there are a lot of VPs here and others who are asking for this. So do you really want to make this move?

[00:10:15] And we can tell everyone that you guys are not giving us any money for this, um, and see how they react. Um, because then they'll remember, Hey, maybe I don't want to work here anymore because they clearly don't care about us. Um, so I feel like in this time where a lot of people are pulling back, it's making a lot of groups and people fearful that you're like, Oh, well, that's it. That's the, that's the end of that, that run. And we're not going to have any more, but that's the scarcity mindset of thinking, Oh, um,

[00:10:42] there was only a finite pie to go around for all these groups. The, you know, women's groups, LGBT groups, all these like, Oh, that pie is gone. I'm like, is the pie gone? Like you, I'm pretty sure you have the budget for this because you're spending on other stupid stuff. Like you clearly could do this if you choose to, but you're not. So maybe I need to push back and demand that you spend this way. Otherwise, you know, we're going to have a problem, but it's always been this kind of feeling like, Oh, here are the crumbs and we'll give you some scraps.

[00:11:11] So you guys can celebrate your little month or your little, whatever it is and make yourself feel good about each other and have your little snacks and happy hours. But I mean, it goes beyond that to have people, to have women come in, to have a black speaker who's come comes in and talks about their work. You know, I think it makes people feel like they actually belong, but it also inspires them to do better work. And so if you feel like you're in an environment or a company that cares about that, then they shouldn't be putting money towards that. I mean, it's ridiculous to think otherwise, but again.

[00:11:41] Yeah. And it's, it's a tricky balance too, in terms of whether you go in and speak for free or not. Yeah. I mean. My wife was like, don't, don't go. Like you, that you agreed to this. And I'm like, yeah, on the one hand, I, you're right. Like I shouldn't just agree to this and go for, cause like, then it's my self worth. Like, well, my time is worth more than this, but it was also the flip side. It's like, Hey, if they're not demanding this and they don't have, feel empowered to do so, like my. They really need you.

[00:12:11] Yeah, exactly. It's a, it's a conundrum, but I'm like, you know, I literally need to tell them this is what's happening. And I told them straight up, like your company's not paying me. Like they decided that they were going to do this and they pulled out the last minute. And just so you guys know, the value you bring to the table is demands that you should get, you know, people like me to speak here. And if they're not, you should be asking for it. But it was, it was more of, I was so angry that this was happening that I was like, no, this is my way to, and some people was like, well, that's not how I pay them back. Cause you basically gave a free talk.

[00:12:40] You know, this is more, it's more important for me that the next generation actually grow that kind of resilience and strength and feel empowered than it is. I'm like, I was going to donate this money anyway. I'm like, you know what? This is my way of giving back too. I know a lot of people that struggle with this, especially diverse speakers, the idea that they get asked to do things for free, or they get kind of pressured, like, oh, this will help your brand. And you're, you know, many of us are like, we already have a brand and thank you.

[00:13:10] But I, I tend to fall similar to you in the point of what I ask myself is really about what's the intention and what's the purpose. And if your purpose is to help the company, then that is very clear is a monetary thing. But if you're, but if there is a moment where you can see a path to unlocking, um, you know,

[00:13:35] this, this general abundance within a community that is in need, and this is the same place that I find there, there is more to it than a monetary transaction. It is about creating opportunity for others and helping them see that their own agency, which is what I love about your message is this point of, Hey, this isn't a message of people

[00:14:04] should do for us. This is a message about, we have more to give as a community, as individuals and those opportunities, we need to make sure that we're not allowing people to overlook us. Yeah. And I mean, I think if my talks, I think of it, I think of everything in long-term perspective. If some of these folks who are more junior or about to be promoted, they hear this message

[00:14:30] and they get to position of power and authority where they can influence the next wave of speakers that come in, then I've done my job. It's not about now. It's the ROI for the future. So if my words somehow penetrate some of them and they feel like, wow, I should have the agencies that demand that we, you know, like at some point when maybe they're junior right now, I don't know. They don't feel the power, but they'll get there. If the things I teach them and they listen to the things I teach them, they use that somehow to gain power and gain authority, then they can use that for good.

[00:14:59] You know, I write about it, that power is often seen as a dirty word in our culture. And if you change the word to empower and add two letters in front of it, use that power to do a lot of good things. And so I want to empower all these people to gain their own power. So Dave, so much of your writing is about urging others to develop confidence and then comfort with self-promotion as, as you did with these, these groups.

[00:15:26] I'm wondering if there's, there's anything about your upbringing that taught you this, like was, did, or was this something that you had to work really hard to, to learn? And, you know, how did that go? Um, I would say I was always a bit of a rule breaker. So that was probably in my DNA, but I remember, um, when I was younger, about maybe an eight or like, maybe, maybe only like six or seven years old, we were at the mall in New Jersey

[00:15:55] and you know, the little train rides they had in the mall where you wait in line for, and, and, um, we were waiting in line with my family and a family cut in front of us. And, um, my dad started yelling at, uh, at that family and my mom and I hid in the KB toy store nearby because we were so embarrassed. We're like, we were mortified because he was causing this scene. Um, and then, you know, after a few minutes, we saw all these people thanking him from behind them because the family left.

[00:16:21] And, um, and I realized like, I cared so much about being embarrassed and what people thought of me when my dad stood up for us, our family, but also the people behind us that didn't say anything and he did the right thing. So it was more important to speak up and say and do the right thing than it was about, you know, what others perception or your saving face or, you know, what, you know, being embarrassed. Um, and he didn't care. And so that kind of stuck with me throughout, you know, my life, whenever I see like injustice

[00:16:49] or something happened, I'm not saying I'm a superhero, but when I see that, I think, oh, like that's not okay. And like, if I don't say anything, then who's going to say something. So, um, in this time when a lot of people are scared of saying something, I think more than ever, we need that kind of, um, that boldness. But again, uh, some kind of, some people call it irrational. I mean, I don't, like, I've, I feel like I'm, um, I try to be as rational as possible about it, but again, I think I've, that, that boldness, it's always kind of been there.

[00:17:18] And it was more amplified when, um, I realized that after all the pedigree I've, you know, getting all the degrees and going to Ivy League school and Stanford business school and Apple and eBay, whatever, the most humbling thing that could have ever happened to me is starting my own company when I had none of that. My identity was, I realized my identity was all tied up in all these brands and my pedigree. Um, and then when I had none of that behind me, I mean, I still had it. Obviously, but when you go to dinner party in San Francisco and people are like, Oh, what do you do? I'm like, Oh, I started this company called, I'm like, what?

[00:17:49] All naked. I mean, I was at the dinner party thing. I'm, I'm thinking they must be thinking I have no job or I can't get a job or I can't get hired by anyone. Cause I started this website that is like a pop culture entertainment website. Um, and they don't follow this stuff. Um, but it always felt like, Oh wow, I need validation from other people so badly that I, I, this is, this is how I feel. So then that's when I realized, wow, I don't care what other people think. It made me quickly realize that I have to find my validation and self-worth in myself

[00:18:17] and not in all these other things that I've done or the names I've, I, and here in the Bay Area, you guys know that a lot of it is that, you know, the pedigree and the resume. Um, and so I think that was very humbling for me, but it was good. It was good for me because then I, I, I kind of that Mel Robbins let them theory, um, that kind of came out because I realized I don't care what people say. And so, like you said, on my LinkedIn posts, if there are haters and other people, I'm like, I don't care what they say. Like, honestly, these are some people sitting in the basement somewhere.

[00:18:45] Like I couldn't care less, but for me, it is a lot. And nowadays, especially there, they're literally bots like doing this to make us. Yes. But I, I think the, the more I speak up and I, I listen to the people that message me and email me and tell me, you know, they're sharing my essays with their 10 year old kids, or they, they're so grateful that, you know, I'm saying this stuff. I mean, that's the people I listened to to provide energy and gives me the, the motivation to keep doing what I do.

[00:19:14] Um, I'm not listening to all kind of like the, the haters and doubters out there. Don't read the comments. Yeah. Don't read the comments. Well, I think there's something really unique that you do that maybe just comes naturally to you, but I think it's worth, um, a moment is the, is the, the fact that you can take

[00:19:38] a level of curiosity and go deeper into both your experiences and to kind of uncover the systems behaviors underneath those things. And I personally, I'm just really drawn to that. And I, I kind of love that level of thinking, but I, I have a theory or a hypothesis in my own head that when you have had an experience, like you just described of, of being, um, and having a moment

[00:20:08] of detachment and, and, um, not fitting a mold. When you have those experiences, you have two choices, right? You either have the choice to kind of get a chip on your shoulder and try to hide it and fit in, or you can take a moment and reflect on the absurdity of what people put value in and decide for yourself, which of those things matter to you.

[00:20:34] And what I love is that you're taking those lessons and breaking them down for others so that they don't have to necessarily live that experience, but they can understand the thinking. Did you like, is this something that you've developed over time? Is this come with age or is this something that you've always been a little bit curious structurally about? I will say it's probably, it's come with age for sure.

[00:21:00] Cause I mean, I think, I mean, it, it's taken time to reflect on these things in my own like life. And, and a lot of times it's, I write cause it's one is cathartic and it's therapy for me, but it's digging into the root causes of a lot of the things that, you know, why I'm the way I am or why people are the way they are. And as I dig deeper, I start uncovering, I mean, it's just peeling onions. It's like, wow, like, wait a second, that's what happened. Or I didn't real, I didn't think of it this way, but that makes sense.

[00:21:28] And so I feel like I get people telling me that the essays resonate with them because I write in a way that they've always thought, but they couldn't quite break it down. And for me, that's, I feel like I've gotten better at that. Storytelling is something that I was never raised was a high, you know, high value proposition. It was like STEM and doing the metrics and the quant and other stuff is more valuable because you can measure that and you can get paid for that. But storytelling, you can't get paid for it.

[00:21:54] But I realized without the storytelling, you can't actually make that data or any of that stuff worth anything. If you can't actually make people feel emotion or feeling around the data or the metrics. And so maybe it's part of the Model UN, part of me, like I was like, I have to take the facts and then persuade people to buy into this, to sign the, you know, whatever.

[00:22:14] But I think it's become so second nature to me now to think that way because I realized we're in a world now that everyone just argues about everything without actually listening. And so if I can't persuade people to see the data or why it's important, then it doesn't matter. So it's always digging a layer deeper. And that's something that's a nuanced thing that no one, people these days are not doing anymore. It's like read the tweet, look at the video on TikTok, and then that's the facts.

[00:22:44] But like, but why? So it's always kind of asking that, but why? And it's the same thing for my own life. Like people are doing this. People are afraid to, why don't Asians, like aren't they more philanthropic? Or why don't they donate more causes? The Jewish community, black community do so, but we don't. Oh, well, if you tie back to, you know, the immigrant scarcity mindset and they don't know where the next check's coming from. And they were told that when they came here, they had nothing. They're so afraid of, you know, and then there's no advantage to them. It's all these cultural things that I think I have to break down and understand more reason why.

[00:23:14] But it is always asking that, but why? Dave, you've mentioned the scarcity mindset and the abundance mindset. And for those who aren't heavily rooted in your sub stack, amazing essays like we are, maybe it would be good to just do kind of a level set of what you mean by those things. So the scarcity mindset is one where people think everything, think of everything as a zero sum game.

[00:23:43] That there's only a finite pie to work with and everyone has to fight for those pieces of the pie. And so when you come from a place that you don't have much, you are afraid to lose what you have. The very little you have, you act in a way that is to keep all that so you don't lose any of it because you could have it taken away from you or something bad might happen. And so many, I mean, not just Asian immigrants, but many immigrants come over to this country with nothing. And then what they have, they have to keep.

[00:24:11] And so they're afraid of, you know, taking risks or taking chances because they might lose what they have. And it impacts them in a lot of ways in terms of kind of how they spend their time, how they spend their money, how they make their decisions. It's very fear based of losing, right? And so, but the abundance mindset is one that is such that the pie can actually, you can actually grow the pie bigger for everyone.

[00:24:37] And if more people and you have a kind of a growth mindset that I can actually add to this. It's more of the, like, how do I actually lean into and grow this for other people? How do I bring people along with me? And, you know, coming up with a startup, a scarcity mindset would say, don't do this. This is too risky. You have a job already. Why would you start a company when you have an income? And that's fine. Abundance mindset would say, if I build this company, this could be worth a lot more to me and my family.

[00:25:06] And also it can create jobs for other people. I can do all this stuff. But it's from that, like what you have, the bird in the hand is always better to I can find a whole bunch of birds. So, I think it is that mentality that I feel like I write about in terms of the Asian American kind of a lot of immigrant mentality is that scarcity mindset and how we can grow that.

[00:25:27] Because, you know, I think a lot can be said about how, you know, even more recently in generations, a lot of the women who made it to the exact ranks felt like if they were the only woman in the boardroom, there was no room for anyone else. So, you do not help the next person up. Hey, I got here through all this shit. You will get out. I don't know if I can curse anything. But I got this. You're allowed to cuss here. We love it. I'm like, I got through here on my own. And so, you'll have to do it too. And there's only one position. So, I'm not going to help you up here.

[00:25:55] Because if someone else, if you come up, you're taking my job, my role. Because, and I think that's, you know, kicking the ladder behind you is a very scarcity mindset, you know, that I feel like people struggle with. So, I am very much, you know, maybe it's the founder in me. Maybe it's the other stuff I've done. But I'm very much about believing that the pie can be bigger. There's enough room for everyone. But right now we're taught and we see, like especially in this administration, that it's very scarcity mindset driven. They're like, oh, there's not enough for everyone. We have to kick everyone out.

[00:26:25] No new people can come in. No new stories can be told. It should only be one narrative. And that's all it is. I mean, that's very, very scarcity mindset driven. Yeah, and I think when you're under moments of change and disruption and threat, I think it is easy or pretty common for people to think in terms of scarcity, right? You've got to protect yours. You need to make sure that you're safe.

[00:26:52] What's really interesting about this when you think about immigrants and people that are newly emerging, the safety nets aren't the same, right? If you come from privilege, if you come from a lot of success, it is easier for you to take risks because you have safety nets. And those safety nets are not only financial, they're also emotional and relationships based.

[00:27:22] But I think you're, you know, what you're doing is so important because you're really helping to unlock the idea that those things are things you can build. You can build relationships. You can build networks that can be emotional ballast for you.

[00:27:41] And so that is a path to unlocking a new way forward that maybe doesn't require generations of privilege, but can be available to those of us who are newly emerging because we can get the tools to build those safety nets for ourselves.

[00:28:00] Yeah. And I think, I mean, a lot of it I've realized over time is I would always blame circumstance or other people for like situations when I realized a lot of the time is just this boogeyman we have in our minds of someone that's going to knock us down or they're going to tell us you can't do that or they're going to punish us or whatever it might be. And part of that is in our own heads because we were afraid of taking the risk. And so we're like, oh, I'd rather not because that's going to happen. Well, is it going to happen? I mean, you could think of the worst all the time or you could think of the best outcome.

[00:28:30] And so for me, it's been trying to like fight back. And this is what the children's book I'm writing about. It's like kind of that, that boogeyman of doubt and fear to, um, it's for a kid, but, um, but to let hope win over, um, believe that. So yeah, it's like two creatures or kind of operations of hope and doubt for a kid. And it's like, I grew up asking the girls to the dance or go trying out for that team or doing things like that. But it all starts when we're young.

[00:28:57] And I think that resilience and being willing to take the chances, um, it's the only way to find out is if you take the chance. Right. And so, um, I think for, for me, it's like, how do I teach people the ways that I've gained confidence? Like, oh, my network makes me feel more powerful. My, because I feel more powerful, I can feel better about self-promotion. Like these are things culturally that I've not grown up with.

[00:29:20] But, um, if it kind of, it's kind of the momentum, the snowball effect of having these things, it really makes me a difference. So, you know, if you have a really strong network, you feel more confident that if things go wrong, I'll have something to fall back on. And some of these people are born with that or they have that. But some of the, many, most people had to build it themselves. So you can keep blaming your circumstance or you can actually do something about it. And that's what I, why I give these talks. Cause I'm, I want to say, Hey, you could keep saying the man is keeping you down, or you can actually become the man.

[00:29:49] Like, man. I love that, Dave. And, and, um, so, you know, Meg and I have spent decades together and we've had a therapy session or two along the way. And I would say that every time it starts with Meg saying, that's a story you're telling yourself, Amy. How about this story instead? Yeah. Right. So I'm wondering actually if like, especially during that, some of those transition periods.

[00:30:16] And when you start, when you did really scary things, did you like, who was your person that was telling you to stop listening to those stories in your head? No, I don't think I didn't have anyone. I mean, it was funny. You didn't have a Meg? Oh my goodness. No, I wish I did have a Meg. I didn't have, and that's why I'm trying to beat up so many people that don't have that. Cause I, I feel like I wish I had mentorship, but I was very lucky. Cause my first, like my second job out of college, I quit consulting every year and I worked for Jerry Yang at Yahoo.

[00:30:44] So I saw someone who looked like me who could do it. So having that, like, you know, really Jean King says, you have to see it to be it. And I think for me, like Jerry was that for me, like, Oh, I can do this. Like, it's not as scary. And a lot of times that's all you need is to see that it's possible. Um, and I think having that example, it helped me believe that as possible, but also I think I realized I wrote about this, uh, in an essay also a long time ago.

[00:31:11] But when I took that first step to be a, become a founder and just leave behind all the safety net that I had, it felt like Indiana Jones and last crusade when Indy steps off to get the Holy grail. And there's like a, you know, the big chasm is like, uh, I'm going to die if I step off. But then that little footbridge that you couldn't see is there. All these people came out of the woodworks to help me out and support me invest, become angel investors, like become, you know, users, whatever it might be. But I think in our minds, we think we're all alone when we take these steps.

[00:31:40] But there's a reason why we have this network of people that we do in our lives. And people came out of the woodworks from like, you know, previous jobs and school and other things. And, um, it's amazing to see like what happens when you actually take a risk on yourself and people, you know, are there for you. I, I really think that there's two big things you said in that, that I personally take very seriously. The one is about being visible.

[00:32:04] Um, it, it became clear to me pretty early in my career, people would be cheering for me in, um, who didn't really have any relationship or association with me, that were cheering for me as a, um, someone that they felt that was going to open doors for them. And, and very early on, I started to recognize that that's something we all need to take more seriously,

[00:32:32] that it isn't in my mind sufficient to just have success for yourself and progress for yourself. It's really, really important that you're not only giving back, but that you're standing into space that you rightfully deserve to be in so that others can see themselves in that.

[00:32:51] And even if they're not directly connected to you, they can be impacted by your, your, uh, behaviors because you're setting a example and becoming a role model in places you don't realize. And so I, I, similar to you, I find writing is important. I find sort of breaking things down for people in a way that helps them see two things. One that there's a lot about what I've done. That's not that special really.

[00:33:21] That doesn't, you know, that is available to way more people than maybe are jumping off and that there's a lot more need for people to step into those spaces. The giving back part, like tell, tell us more about when it tipped over for you from I'm doing things to I'm taking seriously the role that I am trailblazing for others. When did that happen for you? Yeah.

[00:33:51] I mean, it's funny. I think it happened like during, during the pandemic when I started, when I wrote that letter in the wall street journal condemning Asian, Asian hate. Um, and also writing like, you know, starting hyphen to invest in, you know, Asian founders. And we invested $30 million in, uh, Asian founders and 50% had a woman founder or co-founder. And these are things I realized like, Oh, I don't have to ask permission for these things. I can just do this.

[00:34:17] And a lot of times in our minds, we tell the story we have to ask permission or especially for, for a lot of, you know, Asian cultures, like you don't break rules. You always have to ask permission for things. And so it's what's appropriate or, or, you know, why not. But I think when I started doing these things and then I started hearing from people how much it meant to them, I didn't know these people. They were just messaging me like cold, like, Oh, you know, the, a 38 week, a woman who was 30 weeks pregnant, Apple engineer, um, in Mountain View was at a gas station pumping gas. And someone told her to go back to her country during the pandemic.

[00:34:47] And she read our, you know, she's like, why am I raising my kid here? Like, you know, this doesn't seem safe. And then she saw the letter in the Wall Street Journal, the full page ad and she cried because she's like, no, this is my country too. I should stay and fight. But when I hear from people, I don't know. And what, what I've said or done matters to them or somehow impacted them and changed their trajectory or their, you know, what they believed, um, for in positive, in a positive way.

[00:35:14] Um, that is when I started getting those messages, um, unsolicited, that's when I realized like, Oh, wow, I'm, what I'm doing is being seen. And it matters. And it makes you want to keep going. Um, because, you know, I get so many unsolicited messages from people telling me about how they share their, my essays with their kids or they, you know, watched my documentary on Jeremy Lin and they watched it with their families and they, you know, they cried. And all sorts of people that I, I mean, I'm so lucky that I hear from them.

[00:35:42] But, um, I mean, if I, even if I didn't, I probably still want to do this work. Um, but I'm very fortunate that they, that we have the upside of social media is that there are all these strangers that read my stuff like you guys, um, commenting and then reaching out and wanting to have these conversations. Um, and I'm, I'm impacting people and not just Asian communities, but other people reach out to that they read the essay. So, um, you know, for me, it, it, it's given me kind of a lot of kind of hope, but also encouragement to keep going.

[00:36:13] So one of the topics you covered recently hits pretty hard for Amy and I, because we have college age kids. Um, and of course, uh, having raised kids in the Bay area, I think we all recognize that there is, um, it's almost like an arms race of competition for which, uh, I think Asians are leading the way.

[00:36:37] But, uh, a lot of, a lot of kids feel this incredible pressure for college. And I really feel like that is a, is a, um, important topic. I know your kids aren't quite there yet, but I'd love to hear like, what has been some of the responses you've heard back from that? And have you heard from other communities outside of the Asian community about, uh, about this topic as well? Yeah. I mean, look, I don't know.

[00:37:06] I was just in New York and I mean, I think it's just as stressful there for the kids as well. I mean, and I think, I mean, look, we're, we're in circles that like our, our kids are very lucky to be where they are, but they also, you, I wouldn't have, wouldn't have thought of this. I'm like, if I grew up with parents who were well-to-do, I don't know that I have to try as hard. Like I wouldn't stress out about this, but a lot of the kids are putting the pressure on themselves because they're peers. And, and I feel like, oh, the, no one is hearing that.

[00:37:34] Like, I mean, Asian, uh, among teenagers, Asians have the highest rate of suicide. And I think, I mean, it could be because the parents are too hard on them, but it could be themselves too with each other being competitive. Um, but again, it's the same thing as thinking the validation comes from this outside university or school, which you can't control is telling you your self-worth and your value. And that's, as a kid, that's the only indicator you even have, right? Maybe there's some competitions you can win awards at or trophies at, whatever.

[00:38:02] But ultimately where you go to school is your, the apex of your whole life at that point in time. I felt like that too. My whole world was going to end when I didn't get into Harvard. Um, and it became okay. And it's easier to say in hindsight. Um, but I do think, um, you know, mental health is not something that a lot of folks in, at least in the Asian community talk about. Um, and then even the Silicon Valley community, I feel like it, it's, it's not, it's not taboo. Cause we talk about therapy and people are doing, you know, all sorts of things to try to help.

[00:38:31] But I do think that a lot of the kids, they won't even tell us, you know, about the, the, the stuff that they're dealing with. And, um, and again, I don't mind if they don't talk to their parents about it, I get it, but they have to talk to somebody about it. And I think that's something that we haven't quite figured out and social media has only made it 10 times worse. And if anything is like, it's, it's made, it's definitely made everything much worse. Um, and, and just kind of the, the envy of the beautiful life that someone has and, oh, they got in, oh, look at that. They, they got into Stanford.

[00:39:02] Like they watched that video on TikTok a thousand times and they didn't get in. And I mean, all of that makes you feel miserable. And so, um, at every phase in life, social media can make people feel miserable. And I think at that point, that's their whole world. So I do think we need more people to talk about it, but we can talk about it. The kids are not listening to our podcast. So there's gotta be some other way, but, um, look, I don't want to raise my kids to feel like they have to get into a certain school.

[00:39:27] And I, I, look, we know now, especially as Logan Valley, it doesn't matter where you went to school. Oh, half these people, you even know the resumes is about being liked and people trusting you and building those relationships and people wanting to work with you. They don't care about where you went to school. Nobody remembers that, but it's easier said than done. I mean, I just spoke to a bunch of U Chicago kids and I'm like, I told them that, but they're still going to go get McKinsey jobs and Goldman.

[00:39:50] But, um, hopefully some of them hear what I say, but I just, the story about me getting all those things and then feeling like it was not, it wasn't my life. And that's not what I should be tied to. I mean, I hope they get across that message across, but it comes, it probably falls flat because they know I already have that pedigree. So it's easy for me to say, right. I want them to know it's like, I know so many people. It does not matter, but. Well, and it's really hard for kids these days, obviously.

[00:40:18] Um, so college admissions have gotten significantly harder than they were when we were going to school. And I, of course, didn't go to an elite school, but, um, the other side of it is jobs are getting harder, right? So like every, every part of launching kids to adulthood is getting more complicated.

[00:40:40] And back to your point about, you know, scarcity and parents fear creating, um, challenges for kids. I want to ask another question that you haven't covered in your essays yet, but is very, very top of mind for me. So one of the things that I've been thinking about is advice that we are inclined to give our kids

[00:41:03] that is tied to our own fears of things that were hard for us when we were, uh, starting off. And so, you know, like, I'll just give you a few sort of random things then. And we can kind of go from there that are, that are completely neutral to me and to you. But, you know, in, in the sixties, if men had long hair, that was like, parents were wildly against it. And so, of course, kids rebelling were wildly for it, right?

[00:41:30] Because they wanted to, um, you know, to, to break free of what was seen as a rigidity of the time. And then it would, you know, or earrings or, um, any, any sort of gender nonconformity kind of, um, behaviors. And then it was tattoos or, you know, and so like, like all of these things, like things that were

[00:41:52] problematic for finding a reliable job and future at one point turned into something to do to rebel and then turned into, yeah, it doesn't matter. Everybody has that. So move on. Right. And I wonder like all of those things, when parents are afraid for their children's safety and opportunity, which is what that, you know, that's really where that scarcity mindset is. It's not because you want to hold your kids back, but because you really recognize certain

[00:42:19] paths are harder than others and you want to protect and, and create, um, opportunity for your kids. I wonder how much we're getting wrong today and, and we'll get wrong in the future about the things that we think are important, including college and, you know, what that might mean. What does that mean for their future opportunity when college kids today are, you know, are struggling to find jobs even from elite schools? It's funny because I mean, I've told people like, I, I know I say this and maybe it's flipping

[00:42:48] because they're so young, but I'm like, I don't like them. College might not matter when my kids, my kids are five and nine. I'm like, college might not matter in like 10, 15 years, whatever, because I mean, people may be learning online and just get their, like learn whatever they need online directly or AI is going to like teach them or whatnot. But I feel like I've met so many people that they, whatever degree they had was great. But in honestly, in all honesty, all this, I studied finance for at Penn and Wharton.

[00:43:14] And I'm like, I don't, I mean, yes, I learned that stuff, but I could learn that anywhere in a book, right? But the relationships I have, the experience I have, most of the four years of college is the people and experiences you have. And if you can recreate that somehow, that's what's most important. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have, education is critical. Like if I would have been able to study instead of finance, if I had studied philosophy or, you know, poli sci or something else, I think I'd be much more interesting as a person than learning finance, right? Luckily, I think I've read and done more since then.

[00:43:43] But I think that's, I mean, if I send my kid to go abroad for four years in Europe or in Asia and they explore it, I feel like they would be vastly more interesting and unique as a person. Because again, it's a story that they have to tell and the experiences they have. And so I'd rather almost, I mean, college is also, it's hard to get into, but it's also ridiculously expensive and it's getting, getting more expensive. And I'm like, well, if I gave my kid that money to go travel the world and experience the world, and then maybe they can have some seed money, go start their own, you know,

[00:44:12] AI startup or whatever they want to do, like sell their own restaurant, like go to pay for a room in New York and try for Broadway shows, whatever it might be. Like I'd rather them go do that. I mean, I think for me is I don't want to hold them back or give them the impression of what I want them to be, because that's what I got. And that was that scarcity mindset. Like, I want you to pick these three jobs because they can give you an income that's steady and reliable. I don't want you to want or need for anything the way that we did.

[00:44:39] And so I see that, but I'm like, I'm doing it well. I thought I might give them like all this money that could do whatever they want. But, you know, that's going to be like half a million, million dollars to go to school. I'm like, well, you could do a lot with that and you could learn a lot with that. And so I feel like the whole idea of making them feel like college is the end all. I don't know if I buy into that anymore. And that's why this is maybe now, like you saying, it's like, oh, that's crazy talk because we still think about it.

[00:45:07] But, you know, your kids are in college. Mine are still years away. I don't know what things are. If you get a job out of school, why pay for school? Yeah, especially with like right now or like like Meg was saying, there are no jobs for grads, right? Like it's entry level position. And then if universities are under attack and these institutions aren't able to teach what they're supposed to teach, I don't want them to go there either. Right. Yeah. And if they're not doing research to better the future of the world. Right. Yeah.

[00:45:37] I mean, there's there's a whole lot of layers underneath this. But I think, you know, obviously, just to make sure nobody is confused. I mean, like there is value in doing hard things and college could be a way to do hard things. There is value in having space to grow up in a in a critical moment in time. But, you know, that could be as your point, that could be with travel or with other types

[00:46:04] of community type service or those sorts of things. But I and I do think that having some structure, especially for young people that don't easily find their own path, having having some things that are sort of laid out to give you a sense of where to to make some effort and have that be fruitful.

[00:46:29] But I think to your to broader point, it's truly hard to know what is the best thing to to predict where opportunity and job and all of that will be. And this is, I think, a place why we we spend a lot of time. You know, my focus is inventing the future. Like, I don't think we can leave it to chance about how humans apply their skills to to create

[00:46:57] the future, because I think right now, if we sort of just let it to inertia, we're going to sort of spiral into this scarcity versus creating. And whether that's through entrepreneurship or invention or whether that's through traditional work and traditional school paths, I think, getting more clear on why we're doing we're applying

[00:47:20] our value and our skill and getting more clear on how we're developing future leaders and citizens and all of this, this this sense of, you know, shared community responsibility, responsibility and the idea of opening ourselves up to other ideas and to to being curious.

[00:47:44] I think these are these are paths that we need to build more, not less. Right. And I think this is your abundance. And this is why we're so excited to have you on the show, Dave. And you are just our third guest, by the way, because you really, truly are inventing the future. It's it's beautiful. So thank you so much for that. Oh, no, I appreciate it.

[00:48:12] And, you know, I think the future is the one thing I'll say is when I talk, when we start the full circle back to the beginning conversation is I think we've always thought about like as adults, we've thought, OK, this is our role and this is our job. But Gen Z, they don't think that way. They are the ones who are doing multiple things at the same time. And I applaud them for doing that because you're like, oh, they're all just like YouTubers or creators. I'm like, yeah, but they're storytelling and they're creating things and they're doing they're figuring out ways to make income in ways that I never thought we could do at 20 something.

[00:48:42] So I feel like that though it's hard for a lot of these folks to get jobs, I feel like there's going to be a lot that comes out of it because they're innovative and they're hungry and they're going to come up with things that we would have never thought because we are we've been programmed to think that these are the careers that you've have after school. And that's where you go next. You go to grad school, you go to this, you go to that. But but is that the only universe of options? I mean, now there's more kids out there who are super talented. They might build things and create things that we would have never expected if they'd

[00:49:09] gone into a job as a consultant or a banker like we would have never seen. So I think I do have a lot of hope for them because they don't think they're not wired the same way we were to think it's just one path. And that's the only path for you. So I'm excited to see what they do. All right, Dave. So we have a tradition on the show where we take a question, a dilemma from from a friend

[00:49:35] of the show, an audience member about a leadership situation. Would you like to join us for that? Sure, I'll do that. So it's our it's our advice column segment. All right. You're Abby. I got it. Yeah, exactly. You're Megan, Amy and Dave. OK, here we go. I've been offered a bigger role, but with no compensation change, just a promise of a bump soon when the budget improves.

[00:50:01] As a diverse candidate, should I take this and hope it turns into a real promotion or should I hold my ground to get paid what I'm worth? My intuition is that they will not give me the bigger job until I prove I am already doing it. Yeah. Yeah. First off, have you ever been in this situation? No, usually there's a pay. Usually pay is included. That's why it seems kind of ridiculous to just, oh, I'll give you the title. And some people. Maybe it's a female thing. Yeah. No, I don't.

[00:50:31] But I hear this. I hear this a lot. And I feel like it's a conundrum because you're like, on the one hand, if I get that title, I can grow into that pay. They'll pay me for it. Eventually they have to because it's like, you know, based on titles. Or I could parlay that into another job somewhere else because I had that title and no one knows what my pay is. On the flip side, you get that all the time. It's like, oh, well, we'll give you something. We're not really giving you anything for it. We'll just keep you. It's a way to keep you happy so you don't quit or leave.

[00:51:01] And you don't get actually what you deserve. By giving you more work. Yeah. By giving you more work. And so, yes, the fighter in me says stand your ground and just like say no. And then, I mean, it's negotiation, right? Everything's negotiation. And I feel like if they're telling you that, then you're clearly doing the work to deserve the title anyway. So you should be compensated as such.

[00:51:28] But I would think that they would eventually give it to you anyway and they'd have to pay you. So it's almost like a negotiation tactic to say no. Like, why would I take more work if you're not going to pay me for it? And then they'll come back and say, okay, actually, never mind. We found some budget for you. Miraculously, it appeared. And we'll pay you for it. But, you know, if you are, it's kind of like, it's not a self-worth question, but it's almost like if they treat you that way and they feel that way. Deb Liu told me this.

[00:51:55] And she said, I knew someone that their manager told them that they will never be, you will never be promoted here. And it's like, why would you ever work? Why would you not leave right away? Because that's a gift. If they're telling you that, you do not want to be there. If they're telling you that we're going to promote you, but we're not going to give you more pay, it's like, well, why am I here? If that's how you value me, then I should probably go find someone else at work. It's almost like a kicking the can down the road in terms of something worse is going

[00:52:24] to happen down the road where you feel like you're really mistreated and they're just using you for your work and they're not going to compensate you the way you deserve to be. If you're not getting compensated how you deserve or what you've earned, then you're probably shouldn't be at that place. I think that sometimes there is actually a reason, just having been on the other side of it, I suppose. But if I were in that position, I would, or if I were advising someone in that position,

[00:52:53] I would say, okay, you need to set a deadline. And if this deadline is not met, and it could be something that is just an internal deadline based on what people told you, but you could also... If you get a paper probably in writing, you'd probably do. Yeah. Yeah. That would be good. Yeah. I mean, there's other ways. Budget or not, you can get equity. There's other ways that can compensate you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then if that deadline isn't met, to your point, that's a perfect opportunity to leave.

[00:53:23] Yeah. Right? Because you have gotten more experience. You've got a better title. You are much more marketable. And so you have gained something. Yes. And yes, you probably should realize that you're being taken advantage of by the current situation. Yeah. But be able to parlay that. And so the story that, again, you need to be telling yourself is, I did it.

[00:53:52] I'm great. I'm more valuable. And I'm going to take advantage of that. Yeah. I think I would just add a couple things. Because one of my observations about this topic in particular is it's very, very gendered. And it's interesting because the advice women are always get is like they don't negotiate for pay enough or whatever. But the data actually suggests that women do negotiate. And when they do, it backfires on them more than men.

[00:54:18] And so I do think that it's important to kind of keep that in mind. But I also agree that this is a conversation starter. And you should not take the conversation as given. You should negotiate in this moment. And I think somewhere between your advice is exactly what I think I would recommend, which is say, I'm very interested in this. And I think I can do a great job in this new role.

[00:54:48] I'm very confused as to why you would want to give it to me without a compensation increase because you couldn't get it externally with a compensation increase. Are you thinking that is that exclusively because of budget? Or is it because you're having doubts in my ability to do this role? Get them to be a little bit more crisp. And then the other side of it is, to Amy's point, force them into a and how long would I be doing this without being compensated for the new role?

[00:55:17] Putting some of that that burden back on them in a polite way to make it clear that you don't think that that's how this should go down in the first place. Yeah, exactly. Clarifying all up front is really important because then when you get to that deadline, then that is when you have the conversation again. Because I have been in a situation where somebody, honestly, I think, nagged me every week about a raise.

[00:55:45] And it was a guy and I wanted to strangle him. Like, I could not stand. Like, I was like, dude, eventually, you know, and it wasn't this exact scenario, right? But it was just, it was awful, you know? But he was so entitled to feeling like he deserved it. Yes, exactly. So you don't want to have to bring it up like every week, right?

[00:56:12] You know, really be, you want to be able to focus on the work, focus on the growth and have this, you know, this underneath and ready to kind of pull the trigger based on that upfront. So having, I think, Meg, like what you were saying, having that, the upfront courage to have that talk in the moment is really important to set yourself up for the future. Yeah. And I mean, I've heard this from so many people.

[00:56:39] It's like they're, they have the reviews and they're like, oh, well, you're not quite, you're still missing a few things or you're at, you know, you'll get there. But at some point, it's like that dragging you along, if there's no timeline or time horizon, like you're saying, like have this conversation. Like if I'm not promoted by this time, I'm leaving. And it's like, okay, well, then it's like you can't kick the can on the running work. But there's so many people that are taken advantage of, especially I feel like Asian Americans who are really good ICs. And like, hey, I want to be a manager.

[00:57:08] It's like, well, we'd like to keep you in an IC position because we think you're really good at that. And we'd rather, you know, focus on that. But it's like, well, why? Like there's no, I feel like they, they're, they're being programmed into this position that they don't even want to do anymore, but they're so good at it. And they're good worker bees. So they're going to stay there. But for me, it's like, that's the worst place to be because you clearly want something else. If you want to stay in IC, that's one thing.

[00:57:32] But if you want more for your career, you cannot stay in that position because they clearly keep like putting the cheese in front of you and stringing you along. And it's like, that's not a good place to be because they clearly don't care about your, your career advancement. Well, thank you so much. This has been joyful. Really appreciate you. Thanks for having me, guys. That was a lot of fun. Good luck with your podcast, which I understand just dropped, just dropped June 2nd, I believe. Yeah. Remember, yeah.

[00:58:02] No, I'm having fun with it. I get to have fun conversations and never done this podcasting before, but it's great. And it complements the writing that I do, too. But thank you guys for having me on so I can talk about some of this stuff. Well, Dave was even more delightful than I imagined. What do you think, Meg? Absolutely.

[00:58:25] I am always finding that when I find someone and I read their writing and I get connected to their message, it's even more fun to have a live conversation. So really, really fun. Absolutely. And I just love how we had put together a bunch of questions for him and then we just threw them all out the window because he just had such amazing things to say. And we riffed on that. Yeah.

[00:58:54] Although if you go back and look, I think we hit the kind of things we were curious about, which is how did someone from his background go from being a great leader to someone that is so deeply committed to helping others? Yeah.

[00:59:12] I loved that story about his dad and being so deeply embarrassed and then so deeply grateful and that big light bulb moment. Yeah. It just reminds us that courage is contagious and that standing up for people and standing up for yourself is something that is really hard, but that makes a big difference.

[00:59:41] It really made me want to say it was a seminal moment. And I remember my husband telling me I should not use anything to do with semen on the show. So I didn't. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that was wise of you to no longer bring the masculine energy to the Megan Amy show. Very smart. Everyone will appreciate that.

[01:00:05] So, folks, we are taking a few weeks off for a little summer break, as we mentioned at the beginning of the show. So next week, we will be sharing a clip show of Leadership Corner because we've gotten some really nice feedback about the Leadership Corner. So we thought we'd pull together an episode with just those segments.

[01:00:32] So hat tip to Amy Wilson on having the Leadership Corner idea. It is by far the thing we get the most feedback about. People really find it valuable to hear us think about and talk about some of these really sticky challenges. Oh, and I'm supposed to make sure that everybody subscribes to our show. Hey, let's invent the future together. I believe in us. Make every day count. All right.