Katee & Jackye Talk Safety and Pulling Apart the D, the E, and the I!

[00:00:00] You're listening to Inclusive AF with Jackie Clayton and Katie Van Horn.

[00:00:07] Hello, hello. This is Katie Van Horn and this is Jackie Clayton. And I just was about

[00:00:16] to click leave meeting. That one is going to be helpful. Don't do that today, maybe

[00:00:23] tomorrow. 11 meetings today, Jackie. How many meetings do you have today? I have had

[00:00:30] six meetings today. Six so far. Okay, good. Yeah, I have two more after this. So you know,

[00:00:39] it's good stuff. So this is the Inclusive AF Podcast and Jackie and I have a lot going

[00:00:43] on but we love you and want to be here. Jackie, your glasses, I don't know if I'm, they

[00:00:49] look crooked. They're probably crooked. They might be crooked. My headphones are making

[00:00:53] them crooked. You're crooked. I'll just tilt my head. Jackie will be tilting her

[00:01:00] head for the remainder of the episode. I think it's your, I think it is your headphones.

[00:01:04] Yeah, every time I take it behind my head, it pops up. And I just have to tell you that

[00:01:08] normally I wouldn't like call that out while we're recording. I would have done it ahead

[00:01:11] of time but I just noticed A, but then B, since you're such like a fashion, fashion

[00:01:16] Easter now, like all fancy with your cool hair. Yeah. You like call it out and

[00:01:22] be like, listen, Missy, get it together. You're going to change careers. That's

[00:01:26] fashion model. Yes. Okay, so I have a couple of topics for today. I would like to

[00:01:31] discuss. Yes. Number one, it is February 1st. We are recording this on February 1st.

[00:01:39] You all won't hear it until like the 7th, I think. So but would love to know,

[00:01:45] Jackie, what are you looking for from organizations this Black History Month?

[00:01:52] I don't know what all organizations are. I just feel like, but I could tell you

[00:01:56] what you're looking for from organizations. What would what would make you feel like,

[00:02:01] yep, they get it. I don't know if there's anything they would make me feel

[00:02:05] like they get it, but I do think it is important just recognizing success.

[00:02:12] I feel like there is a, it's really important of understanding how people

[00:02:17] have contributed because a lot of times these things, I loved, used to love Tom

[00:02:22] Joyner's like little known Black History fact. Yes. That he used to do every day.

[00:02:27] There are lots of things that are coming out of that and so I think it's time to celebrate

[00:02:33] people and know what the contributions that might have gotten left out as much as possible,

[00:02:38] especially within the industries because it's in every industry, whatever industry you're in,

[00:02:43] you can find people. It is, it is fascinating to see the contributions and I think

[00:02:49] we've seen some things in Hollywood in recent years to like show off or showcase

[00:02:56] some of those folks that have been lost through history but there are so many and to your point,

[00:03:01] there are so many cool inventions in different things. You're like, wait what? Like how that's

[00:03:08] awesome. But I also, for me, I think it's the how are they actually showing up from a numbers

[00:03:18] perspective and how are they like? I don't honestly, I won't say I don't care. Like I don't

[00:03:25] want so much the, oh here let's put some Black people on a wall and tell us, oh there's MLK,

[00:03:34] you know, whoever, whoever that most folks know. I like that what you're saying of like the more

[00:03:39] unknown, right? So more of like, no, what are you actually doing to work on promoting folks that are

[00:03:53] in less impactful roles or lower level roles? What are you doing to help them and like kick off

[00:04:03] a mentorship program or a sponsor program, something along those lines? Like I want some

[00:04:11] action not just some talk. Yeah but I don't want that just for Black History Month but that should be

[00:04:16] the beginning of the conversation. I would hate for someone to be like only in February. No,

[00:04:23] 100% agree but I think it's the like high like the highlight that you're talking about of like

[00:04:28] unknown. I also would like them to highlight people in the company that have done great things

[00:04:35] that are color and I think that's the piece that is also missing is there are so many

[00:04:43] folks that have been with companies forever and ever and keep the lights on and are leading

[00:04:49] great projects and are doing amazing things and and and so highlighting that would also be

[00:04:55] amazing. I think that would be cool. It's like, oh this person had the influence on this or this

[00:05:01] was the person who owns the patent on this or you know making those things because it like

[00:05:09] I mean tomorrow today is history tomorrow. Like it doesn't have to be all you don't have to go

[00:05:17] that far to find the history of what we and what we find significant and recognizing the

[00:05:23] contributions. I think that has I would love that especially at those organizations that have been

[00:05:28] around forever. You know like your JP Morgan Chase's. Yeah well I'm thinking about even just a few of

[00:05:36] my clients that I know like that have manufacturing plants in the South and have a high population

[00:05:44] of Black people working for them and they are you know 20 years, 10 year, 15 years,

[00:05:51] 10 year all of these things and again like they're keeping the lights on and they've contributed in

[00:05:57] such a way that it's like oh you know that thing we do in this process. Oh that was because of Jackie

[00:06:03] that was because of whoever so I also like I think it's just acknowledging the hard work and the

[00:06:10] impact that folks have made. That's my my two cents on the matter. I think that was a nickel

[00:06:16] that was a nickel to a dime. Okay okay that's fair I am feeling generous today I guess.

[00:06:26] What else what else Jackie from Black History Month because we're not going to dwell on this

[00:06:30] too much because we know I know we've talked about this before and it's just do stuff people.

[00:06:37] I think it's taking these things like like as you're looking at these celebrations making sure

[00:06:44] that you're look at all of the multidimensionals of like people of how people show up it's like more

[00:06:52] than your Blackness and so I think people get caught up like what am I supposed to do but

[00:06:59] there are still lots of other when you look at the intersectionality of people like it is

[00:07:08] recognizing within various spaces as people are doing their research of making them known.

[00:07:13] I don't want to like it's kind of like when we talk about pride that's where I get caught up where

[00:07:21] it's like I want to make sure that people know that it exists and giving people resources and

[00:07:25] telling people where to go and also inviting people to share the things that they've looked

[00:07:31] and learned and encouraging people to do that work and allowing people to share things

[00:07:40] that they maybe they saw a movie or read an article or went to a museum it's important to share that

[00:07:45] information too and do it on a regular basis. It could be as easy as your own departments or as you

[00:07:54] go you know company-wide meetings and I think that so many people are like what are we supposed

[00:08:03] to do what are we supposed to do but there's something going on every month and the point

[00:08:08] of these things are to bring awareness and so make sure that as you're doing this that you don't

[00:08:16] lose track this is not about coming up with a new logo or saying yay black people.

[00:08:23] Agreed. Yeah yeah um okay next topic I would like to discuss at this juncture we are at

[00:08:36] time of year that folks are planning their annual performance reviews and obviously I know Texio has

[00:08:46] a dog in this fight if you will and so I will we can call that out that obviously you might have

[00:08:55] some bias in how to focus on bias in annual performance reviews. There are technically

[00:09:02] a sponsor under duress right. There you go. Yes there you go so I I think it's good like just to

[00:09:10] remind folks so you know when you are doing performance reviews and you are training your

[00:09:18] leaders even training your employees on how they put together their reviews I can tell you I've had

[00:09:25] more than one manager on many different occasions say to me things like oh I just copied and pasted

[00:09:30] what I wrote in review which is not great but being aware of the language that you're using and how

[00:09:38] you're describing different people on the team and are you using the same lens for folks and I don't

[00:09:47] mean the same lens as in deliverables because you might have folks at different levels doing

[00:09:50] different work focused on different things but being very thoughtful like I have had the

[00:09:58] fortune to work with the Clayman Institute which is not called the Clayman Institute anymore

[00:10:04] out of Stanford and they did a review of all of our performance reviews and the language that was

[00:10:11] used by leaders and it you know goes back to the same thing that we've been talking about for

[00:10:15] years and years of women people of color are described in ways that are very much

[00:10:21] not as positive whereas you know for and this is again not to ding white men but white men it's

[00:10:29] normally they're very assertive they are a go-getter all of these things where for women and

[00:10:35] for people of color it's oh they're aggressive they're you know the angry black woman they're

[00:10:39] the oh they don't get along with anyone that type of thing and so there's that like

[00:10:45] bias of are the ways that we're looking at talent the same regardless of who the person is

[00:10:53] let's start with this go have you updated a job description like do you know what the person

[00:11:00] was hired to do did you hire those what was the premise that this person was hired in the

[00:11:06] first place I think it's fascinating how people tell people that they don't do a good job

[00:11:13] don't do a good job and yet don't know the job that they're supposed to do in the first place

[00:11:19] like start with the job description is it updated is the person been made aware of any changes

[00:11:27] right are there any gaps that this person might need to look at within the next year because you

[00:11:33] can't do it last year because you want to have an updated job description this is way where height

[00:11:39] this is where you came from this is where you're going so I want to suggest first before you even

[00:11:43] start make sure you understand who the people are in your department their job titles and the job

[00:11:49] description that they were hired under HR depending on the site their company is going to be really mad

[00:11:54] at you when you say hey can you print off a copy of the job description but so be it they have

[00:12:00] access of when the person was hired we know the hiring dates because unfortunately if you look

[00:12:06] across five years and you have five people one person hired each year they might have all been

[00:12:11] hired at a different job description yet get the same rate of pay or even worse it is increased

[00:12:19] substantially but they have the same titles like save yourself some grief yeah start with that

[00:12:25] right you know and going through so that when you give use the job description as a reference

[00:12:32] point for the feedback that you're giving in reference and that will help you in advance before

[00:12:38] you make some major mistakes and going in and saying like you know giving somebody a bad review

[00:12:48] if you're facing it facing it on the job description and just make sure that that

[00:12:53] doesn't have the bias language in there in the first place so that you're giving a reference

[00:12:57] to the activity you're you're judging their activity and not them personally if you can

[00:13:02] remember that that is like 50 percent imagine how fast we could solve the world's biggest problems

[00:13:10] if more SA Startups would gain traction sooner welcome to the Tech Entrepreneur on the mission

[00:13:15] podcast this podcast is dedicated to sharing experiences from B2B SA CEOs who are going

[00:13:22] above and beyond to deliver chains that is noticed you will hear their secrets and learn what

[00:13:27] is required to build a sales business that the world starts talking about and keeps talking about

[00:13:33] and how to overcome the roadblocks to do so I'm going to take a step further Jackie get rid of

[00:13:42] job descriptions and have job leveling guides and um and that way you can actually uh look at it

[00:13:52] from the perspective of hey um it doesn't change as much but you can look at it from a level one

[00:13:59] level two level three level four depending on where you place that person I hate and I do mean hate

[00:14:06] I'm not very a big word you're using it's a very big word and I normally wouldn't say that but I do

[00:14:12] hate the full concept of job descriptions because working at HR's for as long as I have I will

[00:14:19] tell you the amount of times that they change um that's right it just it's bananas the moment that

[00:14:27] you press publish it's wrong um and so I think that's for me the the piece that I always come back to

[00:14:37] um so yeah like I don't know I but you can't have nothing right like yeah one million like

[00:14:46] these things and the thing is is that once you have it like set the standard this is not for

[00:14:51] hiring managers this is this information is going back to HR first because you have to have one or the

[00:14:57] other whatever system you have as long as it's been implemented as a policy don't leave hiring

[00:15:03] managers to their own devices it's a little thing I like to call safe people from themselves

[00:15:09] because nobody's doing these job you know performance reviews when they're writing them

[00:15:14] it's not at 10 o'clock after a cup of coffee like on a Tuesday no they're like 11 30 Sunday night

[00:15:22] they're doing them tomorrow and they just get worse and worse and worse to the point where like

[00:15:27] the last one is saying stay cool how are they doing great what do they need to change

[00:15:34] nothing what advice do you have for the next year keep doing what you're doing right and I

[00:15:43] we again I know you know this we've all seen those exact reviews when it is like come on

[00:15:51] like you can do better but um I also think it is hard to remember and you know and so it's just

[00:16:04] good to have these reminders every single year when you're training your leaders on how to

[00:16:08] do their reviews having that piece in place where you look at how can bias come into play

[00:16:17] what are the types of bias that might come into play as they're evaluating folks

[00:16:21] because it's also the other piece to this can't be comparing Jackie to Katie if just

[00:16:28] because they have the same job you should be using the job description or leveling guide or

[00:16:33] whatever not how does Jackie compare to Katie because that's not fair the bias that people don't

[00:16:39] recognize that go in and you see this all the time where it's like oh this person works so much or

[00:16:45] so hard yeah the bias where it comes in and I think this is important for people to know

[00:16:52] is that that like me like oh always willing to give up you know always ready to travel

[00:16:58] jumps into all these things I don't have young children right I don't have any reason I don't

[00:17:05] have anything pressing at this point where I can't go do what I need to do and so when you do that

[00:17:11] that means you're almost penalizing people who do have children that's where the bias comes in

[00:17:15] and then when you reward that regardless of what your policy is that's where the belonging piece

[00:17:20] goes into play where people don't feel like they belong or they're not being included

[00:17:24] um and I don't know we should talk more about how bias does show up in performance reviews because

[00:17:32] I think people don't recognize oh I'm not supposed to reward people for doing a hard job yeah no that's

[00:17:39] that's not exactly what I'm saying I'm saying compare them to the job description and do yourself

[00:17:45] a favor don't allow people to like overwork themselves and throw themselves into a tizzy

[00:17:51] in the understanding that we are basing it based on how hard or how much someone works

[00:17:58] absolutely absolutely yeah I think that's uh that is another piece to this that's like um

[00:18:07] how how like how do we look at rewards how do we look at the way people

[00:18:14] um perform in these different positions but also how are we looking at

[00:18:23] apples to apples and by that I mean truly looking at it compared to what their job is so yeah um

[00:18:30] so yeah uh what else on like when we think about the performance review what are other good reminders

[00:18:40] that you can think of I think the personality feedback and so the way that that shows up is

[00:18:47] you might say oh uh you don't contribute enough and you're talking about the way that somebody

[00:18:55] maybe they don't want to talk as much because somebody is introverted or they might culturally

[00:19:01] feel like they're not in a place or they have not had a history of of showing up um and so we're

[00:19:09] being unfair to those particular people because that's not the job you know or it's like oh I want

[00:19:16] you to like I I know I I promote and and support people who do remote work I've worked at from

[00:19:23] home for so long but I hate this whole oh you have to be on camera you have to be you know

[00:19:29] you don't come up I don't I want to see your face more like stop yeah let's look at the actual

[00:19:36] work based on what the assignments are right and why does it matter yeah um I don't know um

[00:19:48] what else would I say what else what else I've had leaders in the past who have like had a

[00:19:57] day that they basically like no meetings allowed and you just focus on writing your reviews

[00:20:04] yes and they give one to the employee for a self-assessment day and then another

[00:20:08] what I'll also tell employees is keep a brag book or a brag file whatever you want to call it

[00:20:15] of kudos that you've received from partners from managers from whomever and also any projects

[00:20:21] like throughout the year keep that kind of list together of what you've worked on and what you've

[00:20:26] accomplished so that you remember when you do sit down to write your review in January what did I

[00:20:32] do last February what right arch because I don't know about you but I can't remember what I had for

[00:20:38] dinner last night so I'm not sure I could remember what did I work on in January that's great today

[00:20:45] yes absolutely that is absolutely uh a good thing to do and make sure that you have that for

[00:20:52] yourself or keep those things for your employees because they might have those slack messages and

[00:20:56] keep a file for all the people that report to you if you're in management keep one for yourself

[00:21:00] it's also good to read and when you're having a bad day it's just nice to go on there yes one

[00:21:05] million percent I agree with you wholeheartedly is that on those days when you're like I just can't

[00:21:10] do this anymore having those is a very nice thing to have yes um it's good um okay what

[00:21:24] I'm gonna jump on you you have to pay you're not you're not here I'm actually I am I'm trying

[00:21:30] how I want to approach this next topic so what are the hot topics what are the things that are on

[00:21:35] your mind right now today around DEI just how we should look at it and putting those things together

[00:21:45] I mean I think there are four like that's three different letters and um we've put them all

[00:21:54] together and they don't always they don't work at the same pace or at the same time and people in

[00:22:00] departments are at different levels you know it's like health and fitness like those are two different

[00:22:07] things that we slap together and expect them to always go in there and you're like oh I thought

[00:22:14] you were a health and fitness but you're eating pizza and you're like oh yeah I'm running today

[00:22:18] or something like you you can't just lump everything all together so that is what's on my mind is how do we

[00:22:29] show up and make people feel clear about what the work is I mean it's almost like DEI can just

[00:22:39] be employee experience 100% like I that's I that's why I think both you and I go from that inclusion

[00:22:49] first approach where it is like what is the experience someone has when they are sourced as an applicant

[00:22:58] for a job what's their experience when they come in for the interview process what's their experience

[00:23:02] when they're onboarded what's their experience with development with all these things and I think

[00:23:06] if you always are looking at that from an inclusion first lens yeah I mean my whole

[00:23:12] thing and what I have been known to say is that if you aren't if you're using systems that we're not

[00:23:19] intentional that everyone feel included then someone is being excluded yeah you know you can say who

[00:23:25] it's like I don't know because we have to look at where these policies came from and take it

[00:23:29] from very beginning to end and so you have to audit all of these different spaces to know

[00:23:34] where you need to be and the the diversity part is the easy part it is now that we have all of these

[00:23:43] different people and it's everybody who's in your space today how are we making people feel like they

[00:23:52] can feel safe and get the work done that that is that needs to be done and so it's like how

[00:23:58] are we including and how are people showing up and so it just takes making sure like we're

[00:24:03] doing this with intention and so these are the other people that these are this is how this benefits

[00:24:09] I think I think about sidewalks we we've talked about it so many times about you know first it came

[00:24:15] like oh we need people with wheelchairs so they can go take all these sidewalks and then we see

[00:24:19] people with strollers kids with bikes you know people who are older all of these different

[00:24:24] groups of people that are benefiting the intention is was maybe it came from one direction

[00:24:29] but everyone can benefit from that and so it's looking at it from multiple lenses is what the

[00:24:35] most important thing is because the point is to not have anyone feel excluded yeah and I think

[00:24:43] that's like it's an unintentional of that you know that example it's an unintentional positive

[00:24:47] situation but it's looking at it from that angle and from the other angle of by doing this

[00:24:54] thing whatever this thing is what are you also taking away from another group or from another

[00:24:59] person or whatever so it's also looking at inclusion from like those different

[00:25:08] I'm gonna say groups which is not but personas well no so it's funny that you're bringing

[00:25:15] that up because we were I was having a conversation about personas and you know marketing and sales

[00:25:22] always like to have those personas as we know but a lot of times it does put a not so inclusive

[00:25:32] bent on products and you leave people by the sidelines that maybe you're not going to then

[00:25:38] sell to or not focus on and you lose money or they do that on purpose

[00:25:43] yeah another there's that too possible yeah I do think like it's funny a little fun fact back

[00:25:50] in the day I used to sell Tupperware and it was really funny how like we were practicing

[00:25:57] selling bowls I'll never forget this example and the like head like Miss Tupperware USA was like

[00:26:04] all I remember I fancy that I don't remember all of it and then all of a sudden she goes like

[00:26:08] it's a Barbie pool and I was like what like everybody they would like the whole exercise

[00:26:11] was like how many ways can you sell this bowl right people are like oh it's a salad bowl

[00:26:16] it's a fruit bowl it's a bowl for chili it's a bowl for stew you know it's a jello mold and then

[00:26:21] finally he's like it's a Barbie pool and you're like what are you talking about but you do have to

[00:26:26] look at like okay what do we need what is the system that needs changing that seems like there's a

[00:26:31] little rigidity that somebody could be left out let's look at some of the possible changes and

[00:26:37] how does that going to impact various groups I think a personal example that I like to use

[00:26:41] within Textio giving the interview questions in advance so the thought process was so that people

[00:26:46] that are neuro-reverbers can show up better prepared but it also helps introverts that be better

[00:26:51] prepared it helps people when it's their first job it levels the playing field so people can

[00:26:56] do their research and show up as their best you know it gives people a chance to practice

[00:27:01] and allows us to get more from them we can dig in a little deeper because they've had a lot

[00:27:05] you know like there's all of these benefits yes um we're hiring faster it's we can look more at the

[00:27:12] skills do skills based hiring all of these things and so I think it's important that everyone look

[00:27:19] at like again the policy is we want to make this as as inclusive as possible take it from

[00:27:26] beginning to end and look at the different places where you can make the experience

[00:27:32] more equitable among different groups that is something that you have to do on a regular

[00:27:37] basis and people feel better knowing that somebody is doing that work amen and I uh having someone

[00:27:48] focused on it but also everyone should be thinking about it but but yeah to your point

[00:27:55] like I don't I mean you know this like there's so many times when it's even the most

[00:27:59] uh kind of basic things hey we're having a town hall okay well let's make sure it's not all men

[00:28:06] speaking we hey we're whatever however we're showing up like making sure that everyone

[00:28:13] not everyone like that there is diversity showing up in different places so people can

[00:28:19] see that diversity and know and is anyone going to go oh you guys were very intentional with

[00:28:26] who presented because you wanted to make sure there was diversity they're going to go oh it's great

[00:28:30] that we got to see two or three or however many people that weren't the same people every single

[00:28:38] time so I think that's a piece for me that also like kind of comes to mind so one million percent

[00:28:45] I think it's important to get different perspectives of knowing because you don't know

[00:28:48] who's going to align right um or what's going to resonate it is you know it's just like in

[00:28:55] the ways and methods that people will have different approaches I have different types of slides

[00:28:59] different if they use them different methods at different tone um and it's just important that you

[00:29:07] in order to make sure that everyone has a part of it you want to do in multiple ways

[00:29:10] in multiple voices that makes sense some of the stuff is just not it's just not that difficult

[00:29:15] and people want to make it more difficult than it is well I that so that actually brings

[00:29:21] me to another point where you and I've talked about this multiple times and I think it's just a good

[00:29:28] reminder as well at this time of year when you are gearing up for different months that are you

[00:29:35] know history months or how do we do this the right way that type of thing there are so many

[00:29:41] things that you can do for free within your organization but then there's other things

[00:29:46] that you should be spending money on so having a speaker come in for a black history month you

[00:29:52] should spend money on that having you know taking the time to go how are we showing up here here

[00:29:59] here it's totally free and it's just a matter of like what are you actually the choices that

[00:30:04] you're making and how are you creating a space where people can feel included and feel a part

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[00:30:51] youtube yep yep what else you got jackie what's on your mind i know i just like have been driving

[00:31:00] the topics but what else you got no i mean that's really where i'm at and how are we showing up and

[00:31:10] looking at how we can

[00:31:15] where the work doesn't end regardless of like how people look at the eye work it's not like

[00:31:22] you're not going to have people from diverse backgrounds right that's impossible right

[00:31:28] you're not going to not have people that things are not fair equitable that's not possible and

[00:31:35] you're not going to need it's not you're never going to be in a place where you don't need to

[00:31:41] include everyone or where people feel good about being included so there has to be ways

[00:31:50] of getting the work done and that's why I was like we're looking at a full employee experience

[00:31:55] that's the part that's really on on my on my mind about how people are doing that and we have to see

[00:32:06] how what is going to happen as a result of people going in with that like you know we have

[00:32:15] different frames of reference and no one's being clear of what that is of the definition of what

[00:32:22] what makes people feel like this is like why what are people afraid of when it comes to DEI

[00:32:31] what exactly are do you think is going to happen by having a fair equitable job process help make

[00:32:39] it make sense for me yeah you know that I think that's a piece that I am baffled by right now

[00:32:47] with so many of these things that we're hearing kind of with the politicians and what not of like oh

[00:32:54] like Elon Musk at DEI must die and you're like then you don't know what it is like then you

[00:33:02] you actually would fall into a category of folks that is

[00:33:08] that we would want to protect or that we would want to provide a safe space for

[00:33:13] the fact that you don't understand that is baffling to me but you know the

[00:33:20] the fact that he is wanting to kill off and all of these people are wanting to kill off DEI you're like

[00:33:28] what your question is right like what are you afraid of what is going to happen that you

[00:33:32] are so concerned about because guess what it's not yeah I don't think it makes sense it's like

[00:33:40] I need to I think it needs to be more specific on what like what are you trying to say

[00:33:50] what is it what are you afraid of right I don't know because I don't I think that

[00:33:56] you have people that are are banning if you're banning programs what program are you banning

[00:34:04] right and again and why right what is the benefit

[00:34:11] you're asking the wrong person I don't know again I don't know I'm not sure I'm banned I really don't

[00:34:20] I don't know it's like maybe we should ask people on what like have somebody come in and say

[00:34:27] what they're afraid of because I don't know what the answer is right they're afraid of a lot of things

[00:34:39] not as afraid as I am like I can guarantee that you want to ban equity and inclusion then

[00:34:50] like if you just hate black people just say it right you know just say it and and we'll be okay with

[00:35:01] that I mean we won't we won't be okay with it but we will pretend to be okay with it and

[00:35:07] slowly but surely fix it yeah and I think those are the things that we really have to look at

[00:35:16] of what people are trying to do and I think that there's going to be a problem and and

[00:35:23] you know it's a lot I know so I can't really talk on it it's just too sensitive to have a

[00:35:32] conversation I mean you're asking the wrong person I should be asking you what is it

[00:35:37] no I don't want to because it gets back to you have to I don't want to answer any questions

[00:35:42] today I have decided I'm I'm vetoing questions for today I know no you can't do it it is important

[00:35:50] because I yes you know like I it's one of those things that I have to be able to look into it

[00:35:59] because you can ban a program to make yourself feel better I'm going to be a black woman still

[00:36:04] after you do that right no matter what are my protections none right is that what you're saying

[00:36:11] like I should not feel safe no I need you to feel safe well I don't and so there's nothing I can do about

[00:36:19] it and that's how I have to show up in the world and now you're going to say I'm an angry black

[00:36:24] woman so it doesn't matter so you can't win so you know it's like the edge of giving up

[00:36:34] don't be on the edge of giving up Jackie there's nothing if there's nothing there

[00:36:39] there's no point but there I don't I don't like this Jackie I need some positivity to

[00:36:51] you can have some I can't I still have to show up in the world and it's just the reality of it

[00:36:57] yeah so it's like the half because we have to have the conversation that's the conversation that

[00:37:07] has to be had of how do you show up how are you saving your employees are you just saying that you

[00:37:13] don't care and you're going to follow everything else like I'm not I don't really coward of bullies

[00:37:20] but other people will right so it just goes back to the work and this is what's happened

[00:37:28] historically over and over and over again you might not know that if you're like an American

[00:37:33] in the United States but there's like a history of it that's the other reason that you know

[00:37:39] you should look at that while you're going through your black history of understanding that

[00:37:43] what is happening right now it's it's time for things like that to happen right now as soon as

[00:37:49] they feel like the power is unshifted like oh you know I might there my I'm a threat so it's

[00:37:56] just better to affect black and brown people instead but I have to live in that world right so

[00:38:06] you know it's one of those things where I have to make a determination of of

[00:38:14] where to go or where to feel safe and how to show up you just say no one's going to protect me

[00:38:20] I will protect you always thanks Katie I I always I always protect you that's my job

[00:38:33] and because you know yes that's very true I do like to do that as well yes I think the other

[00:38:40] piece that I would say is the we're at the point now where we can't like kind of to your point

[00:38:48] where we can no longer just say oh hey we're going to do something about this

[00:38:53] but then not really do anything about it and that's the part that I think people are also missing

[00:38:59] is no but what are you actually doing right nobody's going to do anything because they're

[00:39:06] too afraid I'm not afraid I know you're not but you know it's like how there are enough people

[00:39:16] that are and that's what's going to you know be important of figuring out how we do those things

[00:39:26] you know yeah and so I think those things are there and so it's we really have to figure out

[00:39:35] what we can do for employee experiences because all of this is going to happen and come back

[00:39:41] um and I think those things are going to be important yeah and we just have to keep plugging

[00:39:52] along was the other one I would say because I think that's the other piece that I feel like we're

[00:39:58] at this point of exhaustion about everything and we have to keep pushing

[00:40:08] and someone does someone does not you someone does well I mean some just in general it's like

[00:40:17] we somebody's gonna have to figure out figure out those things and it's like I don't know who

[00:40:23] it's going to be but it has to be more than one person right it does and that's the the

[00:40:32] kicker where people are going to be looking to people like us of like how can I do that

[00:40:36] and the answer is

[00:40:41] figure it out um the answer is

[00:40:46] let's talk about it let's continue talking about it I think because I

[00:40:51] that's the other piece I don't think there's a one one and one answer as you know as we all know

[00:40:58] no there's not that's I mean and everybody's at different levels and their companies are

[00:41:02] at different spots yeah and the impact is yeah Penny would like to say hello oh oh by jumping on

[00:41:10] top of my tummy um I love you yes I love you okay um y'all can't see this if you're just listening

[00:41:20] but Katie just got mauled by it's true love he loves me he loves me the most um all right so

[00:41:30] so Jackie what are you looking forward to this week what's coming up for you what's exciting

[00:41:37] well I'm going to go running on Saturday I actually ran this past week I'm kind of excited about it

[00:41:43] it was actually kind of fun the weather has been lovely here so I've been spending time outside

[00:41:49] it has to be coming it has to be coming your way because I've got overcast nasty

[00:41:54] it's not an interview it can't stay here um I'm sick of it um good yeah exciting plan

[00:42:05] I mean I'm waiting for gallantines I'm excited about gallantines do I'm going to tell you

[00:42:10] what's exciting so this weekend I'm going to actually go to a play or an actually a musical

[00:42:19] uh jagged little pill at gamutge oh it's a you know a musical based on Alana Smores

[00:42:27] one of my girlfriends invited me and then we're going to do a gallantines book club for the

[00:42:33] the book club that I'm in um and uh it's a book that I would highly recommend to anyone

[00:42:41] that is a book lover it's the the seven husbands of Evelyn Hugo um if you haven't read it

[00:42:48] it's very interesting and I won't say more than that because I don't want to ruin it for anyone

[00:42:52] that will go read that um and also I have been able to work out again so much like you I won't be

[00:43:01] running because if I fall when I run right now I'm not dealing with worse issues with my elbow

[00:43:08] but I am back to at least riding a bike in and that or you know a stationary bike at the gym

[00:43:15] um and walking the dogs but I will be staying off the mountain for a while still until my elbow

[00:43:21] is completely healed so yes well at least we're both getting some activity I'm sorry that it's

[00:43:28] overcast but I know it'll change yeah I'm sure it will be sunny within the next like hour or two

[00:43:33] because that's just how it works here in Arizona but all right my friend um we love you all that

[00:43:41] are listening we miss you all if we haven't seen you in a while um and also I would like to just extend

[00:43:48] I know we have some friends recently who have unfortunately been impacted by reductions in force

[00:43:55] across multiple organizations and um I'm just I'll speak for myself and I'm sure Jackie feels

[00:44:03] the same though that uh we're here if you need to talk if you need to cry if you need to

[00:44:08] laugh uh we're here um and we'll send any leads your way that we hear about so um do reach out to us

[00:44:17] if you are looking for resources or if you're uh looking for a shoulder um we appreciate you

[00:44:26] this is Katie Van Horn and this is Jackie Cliekton bye

[00:44:36] you might be surprised to know that not all serial killers are straight cisgender white men

[00:44:41] and the victims of true crime are not a monolith either she's Wendy and I'm Beth and together

[00:44:46] we host Fruit Loops Serial Killers of Color a true crime podcast together we take deep dives into the

[00:44:52] true crime stories about marginalized and minor ties perps and victims that often go untold we

[00:44:58] also provide the context and nuance that these stories deserve at Fruit Loops we're serving up

[00:45:03] true crime with a side of history society culture and some fun listen to Fruit Loop Serial

[00:45:08] Killers of Color on Spotify Google Play Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts