Getting Inclusive AF with Meggie Palmer

[00:00:00] You're listening to Inclusive AF with Jackie Clayton and Katie Van Horn.

[00:00:11] Hi, what are you doing?

[00:00:13] How's it going, Jackie? Hey, Katie. So happy to meet you all.

[00:00:17] Yes, and Katie's not here. Just for pictures here.

[00:00:20] Oh, hello. I love this photo of her. I feel like I'm with her in presence.

[00:00:24] Right.

[00:00:25] I am a real hero. I'm just plugging my... Hi, I'm just plugging my...

[00:00:28] No worries.

[00:00:30] We just moved house and so my office is like a schmozzle, but that's okay.

[00:00:35] I like that schmozzle. I think...

[00:00:38] It's an unusual bed, right?

[00:00:40] Yeah.

[00:00:42] So good.

[00:00:43] I'm so excited about this. I've been really excited all week.

[00:00:46] I'm just going to move the plant so it looks a bit better, but I'm listening. I'm listening.

[00:00:49] Yes, no worries. And I'm usually not sitting in my house.

[00:00:54] I usually am sitting in my office and my dogs...

[00:00:56] So they kind of like don't know what's happening right now.

[00:01:00] They keep staring at me and they're like...

[00:01:03] You okay?

[00:01:03] Maybe I should try to go outside.

[00:01:05] Yes. So my office, I have...

[00:01:08] My office is just a little bit farther down.

[00:01:12] It's not like I have to take a golf cart or anything,

[00:01:15] but they're delivering a computer to me.

[00:01:19] Yeah.

[00:01:20] We had a company meeting this week and they saw the status of my computer.

[00:01:25] And they also saw that every time I try to open Outlook, it shuts down.

[00:01:29] And they were like, you...

[00:01:31] This is not going to work out for us.

[00:01:33] Yeah.

[00:01:33] They're like, how long have you been doing this?

[00:01:34] I'm like, oh, a couple of years.

[00:01:36] They're like, you know, like that's ridiculous.

[00:01:37] And they saw that I don't have ASDC.

[00:01:41] Like all of those letters are gone now from like overaggressive typing, I guess.

[00:01:46] So they were like, you need a new computer.

[00:01:49] Oh my gosh.

[00:01:50] Overaggressive typing.

[00:01:51] That's amazing.

[00:01:52] Can you do a LinkedIn post about that?

[00:01:54] I should do over...

[00:01:55] And I think it's a special group of people.

[00:01:58] I mean, and they know who they are.

[00:02:00] The ones that don't have that ASD, they know.

[00:02:03] So I'm not that person.

[00:02:05] So I'm just like, I'm literally sitting...

[00:02:06] I'm like, I don't even know what you're talking about.

[00:02:08] It's so...

[00:02:08] I mean, I thought I was an aggressive typer,

[00:02:10] but obviously you've got some things to teach me.

[00:02:12] Like the ones like where you can always hear

[00:02:14] and they sound like they are like a ticket person.

[00:02:18] Like they're firmly taking notes that you hear all the time.

[00:02:20] Oh, really?

[00:02:21] Like when you try to be quiet.

[00:02:23] I also can't whisper very well.

[00:02:25] Like I try...

[00:02:25] I whisper like this.

[00:02:27] Like I try to whisper.

[00:02:28] Well, you should have been heard.

[00:02:29] You know what I mean?

[00:02:30] Yeah, exactly.

[00:02:32] Like you've just got stuff to say.

[00:02:33] Like that's...

[00:02:34] I feel like that's a good thing.

[00:02:35] That's what we try and raise our kids to be

[00:02:37] and how we try to...

[00:02:38] Right.

[00:02:39] Like use your voice, et cetera.

[00:02:41] So...

[00:02:41] I don't know.

[00:02:42] I overkill them on that too.

[00:02:44] My kid's like 23 and they're like, let me see.

[00:02:47] And they'll just keep looking around the house

[00:02:49] to find things to talk about.

[00:02:50] They always find things to talk about.

[00:02:52] I have a true world.

[00:02:53] So I need to like...

[00:02:54] I need to learn all of your wisdom.

[00:02:56] Listen.

[00:02:57] Yeah.

[00:02:58] Because some things overkill.

[00:03:01] I overshot.

[00:03:03] And it's like we're just dealing with it now.

[00:03:05] What did you overkill, Jackie?

[00:03:06] Oh, I think part of it is like, you know,

[00:03:10] stick to what you believe,

[00:03:12] which makes them really inflexible.

[00:03:15] Okay.

[00:03:15] All the time.

[00:03:16] I get concerned.

[00:03:17] Like they'll be like, but that doesn't make sense.

[00:03:19] Like they almost failed poetry class.

[00:03:21] They're a math major.

[00:03:23] And...

[00:03:23] I think it's illogical.

[00:03:24] I love that for them.

[00:03:25] Right.

[00:03:25] But a little too logical.

[00:03:26] I don't know.

[00:03:27] Maybe it's just genetic.

[00:03:28] Like, you know, oh, write a poem as if you were a window.

[00:03:32] And they would be like, but I'm not a window.

[00:03:34] Like there's no fun.

[00:03:35] I still love that too because it's like,

[00:03:37] it kind of comes back to like,

[00:03:39] they've got something to say

[00:03:40] and if it's ridiculous, they're just not here.

[00:03:42] I kind of...

[00:03:42] They're like, I'm not playing that game.

[00:03:44] Yeah.

[00:03:45] Yeah.

[00:03:45] But like, why would I be a window?

[00:03:47] They're like, just pretend.

[00:03:48] They're like, I would never pretend to be a window.

[00:03:50] I'm sure of it.

[00:03:51] Like since they were like five years old.

[00:03:54] Honestly, I'm with them on this.

[00:03:55] It feels like a dumb exercise.

[00:03:56] Yeah.

[00:03:57] It was like when they did flowers

[00:03:58] and they were like,

[00:03:59] but what if it's a this color flower?

[00:04:00] And they'd be like, it wouldn't be a flower.

[00:04:02] Or like, whoa.

[00:04:03] They're like five.

[00:04:04] They're like, um...

[00:04:05] I sort of admire that.

[00:04:07] Like I can, I understand why for the education folks,

[00:04:11] that's like a disaster.

[00:04:12] But I also sort of like,

[00:04:14] I'm like here for the chutzpah, you know?

[00:04:15] I think actually, to be honest,

[00:04:17] one of the things that was really funny is

[00:04:20] when people meet my kid,

[00:04:22] they're usually like, whoa.

[00:04:25] Because they're also like,

[00:04:26] they're a math major,

[00:04:27] but they're also like international super fashion models.

[00:04:30] So when they meet them,

[00:04:31] they're like, there's a lot going on.

[00:04:35] But, well, isn't it funny

[00:04:37] how society puts us in boxes?

[00:04:39] And it's like, you can be in a math major box

[00:04:41] or you can be in a supermodel stunning.

[00:04:43] You know, like it's not, we don't,

[00:04:45] maybe that's because we don't have

[00:04:46] a lot of role models of that.

[00:04:47] I don't know.

[00:04:47] Well, I don't even know if we have,

[00:04:49] we don't have a lot of role models,

[00:04:51] but then you have to add on top of that,

[00:04:53] you have to be like a full extrovert to be like,

[00:04:58] yeah, I do math and I model now.

[00:05:01] And those are two like categories

[00:05:02] that sometimes people don't like telling people.

[00:05:05] Are they, are they extroverts?

[00:05:08] I don't know.

[00:05:09] I don't know if that's the word.

[00:05:10] I think we all, I think we, me,

[00:05:13] I patterned this and I think my mom patterned this

[00:05:15] where it's like,

[00:05:16] you do all of this behavior extrovertedly,

[00:05:20] but not really an extrovert.

[00:05:22] Yeah.

[00:05:22] I remember my mom said to me once,

[00:05:24] the world is made for extroverts.

[00:05:25] And I don't know if she is an extrovert,

[00:05:28] but I've never forgotten that actually.

[00:05:29] Cause I think I probably skew extrovert,

[00:05:32] but I also am very aware

[00:05:34] that there's a lot of privilege that comes with that.

[00:05:36] Do you know what I mean?

[00:05:37] Because it's,

[00:05:37] yes.

[00:05:38] And if I was an introvert,

[00:05:40] my energy would be even more depleted

[00:05:42] and they would be so much harder.

[00:05:43] You know what I mean?

[00:05:44] It is so true.

[00:05:45] Okay.

[00:05:45] So last week,

[00:05:46] here's a firm example

[00:05:48] and we'll just record it and whatever.

[00:05:49] It's like,

[00:05:49] we'll do,

[00:05:50] by the way,

[00:05:51] this is the,

[00:05:51] this is the inclusive AM podcast.

[00:05:54] This is how we end up doing things,

[00:05:55] but this is like a firm example,

[00:05:57] real example.

[00:05:57] Like last week I got,

[00:06:00] is your ready?

[00:06:01] Yes.

[00:06:02] Okay.

[00:06:02] Perfect.

[00:06:03] We're good.

[00:06:03] Okay, great.

[00:06:04] I get really nervous.

[00:06:05] Like sometimes I get nervous

[00:06:07] and I don't want to say something.

[00:06:08] Right.

[00:06:08] So then somebody said something

[00:06:09] that hurt my feelings

[00:06:10] and I was like,

[00:06:10] that hurt my feelings

[00:06:12] and then they were sad.

[00:06:14] Right.

[00:06:15] So then it was like my responsibility

[00:06:16] for making them sad,

[00:06:18] but not to self advocate.

[00:06:19] And then I was like,

[00:06:19] what do you do?

[00:06:20] Do you speak up

[00:06:21] or do you not speak up?

[00:06:23] And did I just ruin this person's life?

[00:06:25] Or is it really not that big of a deal?

[00:06:28] How do we have these,

[00:06:29] these conversations?

[00:06:30] And I used to be like,

[00:06:33] you really have to be extroverted

[00:06:35] to get your point across.

[00:06:36] You don't have to do that

[00:06:36] as a regular practice

[00:06:37] of getting your energy,

[00:06:39] but you do have to practice

[00:06:41] saying what you're thinking

[00:06:44] or what you're feeling

[00:06:45] or advocating for yourself.

[00:06:46] You can't expect other people

[00:06:47] to advocate for you.

[00:06:49] You can't.

[00:06:50] But then to your point,

[00:06:51] it's also not your emotional labor

[00:06:53] to take on if they,

[00:06:55] then take offense

[00:06:56] to you enforcing boundaries,

[00:06:57] you know?

[00:06:58] Right.

[00:06:59] And, but that's the other part, right?

[00:07:01] So especially in talking about women,

[00:07:02] I think that what you're saying

[00:07:04] is so spot on

[00:07:07] because you have to be able to,

[00:07:10] like, we don't have a lot

[00:07:12] of those role models.

[00:07:13] We don't have a lot of role models

[00:07:15] where all of a sudden,

[00:07:16] if you are speaking like that,

[00:07:17] you're no longer supposed

[00:07:18] to be an executive.

[00:07:19] You're supposed to be in politics.

[00:07:20] Right.

[00:07:22] Like all of a sudden,

[00:07:23] wait a minute,

[00:07:23] you're just putting so much work.

[00:07:25] So now I have to have

[00:07:26] a full ideological belief

[00:07:29] or be willing to go

[00:07:31] into that,

[00:07:31] that type of business.

[00:07:34] Well, I think it's interesting

[00:07:35] as well.

[00:07:35] Something that is coming up for me

[00:07:37] as I hear you speak

[00:07:37] is like the idea of role models

[00:07:39] for women in particular

[00:07:40] around boundary setting

[00:07:42] and not just boundary setting,

[00:07:44] but then like taking those boundaries

[00:07:45] and being respectful of those.

[00:07:47] Like, I don't know if I really,

[00:07:48] and I don't know

[00:07:49] if this is the same for you, Jackie.

[00:07:50] I'm not sure if I saw

[00:07:51] a lot of good role models

[00:07:53] of particularly women

[00:07:55] who set strong,

[00:07:57] but fair boundaries.

[00:07:58] I don't think I have

[00:07:59] a lot of great role models

[00:08:00] for that.

[00:08:00] I don't know about you,

[00:08:01] but...

[00:08:01] Well, the flip side of that,

[00:08:02] which was interesting,

[00:08:03] is that I worked

[00:08:04] for all women growing up.

[00:08:06] Like from the time

[00:08:06] I was 16,

[00:08:07] like I worked at a subway.

[00:08:08] The owner was a woman,

[00:08:09] and like all of these jobs.

[00:08:12] So then when I started working

[00:08:13] in like diverse environments,

[00:08:16] I just was such the asshole

[00:08:18] because nobody else spoke like that.

[00:08:21] Like I'd be like,

[00:08:21] I don't think that's right.

[00:08:23] And they'd be like looking at me

[00:08:24] like that's not the way

[00:08:24] you're supposed to,

[00:08:25] you're not supposed to speak up

[00:08:26] in your only 20s.

[00:08:27] But it's funny

[00:08:27] that you call yourself the asshole

[00:08:29] because like to me,

[00:08:31] I'm assuming objectively

[00:08:33] you weren't an asshole.

[00:08:34] You just had standards.

[00:08:36] You just wanted to speak up.

[00:08:37] You didn't want to put up

[00:08:38] with BS behavior, right?

[00:08:39] And that was the normal pattern

[00:08:41] because we didn't have that part.

[00:08:44] Yeah.

[00:08:45] And it was like,

[00:08:47] I didn't have role models

[00:08:49] of people who had to set boundaries.

[00:08:51] Yeah, interesting.

[00:08:52] So it was like,

[00:08:54] always like,

[00:08:54] let's just all get together.

[00:08:56] Let's share our ideas

[00:08:57] and we'll pick the best one

[00:08:59] and we'll just roll with it.

[00:09:01] And then to be in an environment

[00:09:03] where,

[00:09:04] and I was still relatively young

[00:09:05] and naive too,

[00:09:06] where I didn't know

[00:09:07] that the first opportunity

[00:09:10] I had,

[00:09:11] and well,

[00:09:11] now we have to turn it around.

[00:09:12] Look,

[00:09:12] it's like,

[00:09:13] now it's turning into like

[00:09:14] the Jackie show.

[00:09:15] I'm going to have my therapy on it.

[00:09:16] But the first person

[00:09:18] that I talked to

[00:09:20] in the way

[00:09:20] that I advanced my career

[00:09:21] is I used to talk

[00:09:22] to this guy

[00:09:23] in the elevator

[00:09:24] every day.

[00:09:25] We went to work

[00:09:26] at the same time

[00:09:27] and we left

[00:09:27] at the same time

[00:09:28] and we spoke every day.

[00:09:29] And then he started

[00:09:31] asking me all these questions

[00:09:32] and I was,

[00:09:34] I think,

[00:09:35] 24 years old.

[00:09:36] And then I got called up

[00:09:38] to a meeting.

[00:09:38] My boss was like

[00:09:39] in a panic

[00:09:40] because it turned out

[00:09:41] he was like

[00:09:43] the CEO of the company.

[00:09:44] I had no idea

[00:09:45] that he was.

[00:09:47] And he invited me

[00:09:47] to this board meeting

[00:09:48] and said,

[00:09:49] me and Jackie

[00:09:50] had this conversation.

[00:09:51] I want you to share

[00:09:53] what you shared with me

[00:09:53] on the elevator.

[00:09:54] And I did.

[00:09:55] And then the next week

[00:09:56] I was on a corporate jet.

[00:09:58] We were flying

[00:09:58] to all these places

[00:09:59] and I was responsible

[00:10:01] for like membership

[00:10:02] interaction.

[00:10:03] Like, yeah,

[00:10:04] it was like this whole thing

[00:10:04] because I talked to him

[00:10:06] in the elevator.

[00:10:06] So the world does belong

[00:10:08] to extroverts.

[00:10:08] Even if you're faking it

[00:10:10] so you make it,

[00:10:11] you have to make it.

[00:10:12] You have to be able

[00:10:13] to advocate for yourself.

[00:10:14] Well, and also what I love

[00:10:15] about that story though

[00:10:16] is firstly,

[00:10:17] what a great leader

[00:10:17] to strike up

[00:10:18] that conversation every day.

[00:10:20] Like both of you.

[00:10:21] For him as well though

[00:10:22] also, right?

[00:10:23] Like to have this conversation

[00:10:24] with someone more junior

[00:10:25] in the organization

[00:10:26] and then to not only

[00:10:27] have that conversation

[00:10:28] but to listen.

[00:10:29] Right.

[00:10:30] That's what I think

[00:10:30] is very interesting.

[00:10:31] And like how bolshy of you

[00:10:32] and how amazing

[00:10:33] for you then to like

[00:10:34] lean into that

[00:10:35] and that's so impressive.

[00:10:36] And to me,

[00:10:37] the lesson from that

[00:10:38] I think for all

[00:10:38] of our listeners

[00:10:39] is like the power

[00:10:40] of relationships.

[00:10:42] And I think

[00:10:43] whether you're introverted

[00:10:43] or extroverted,

[00:10:44] I think we all

[00:10:45] have the capacity

[00:10:46] to develop

[00:10:47] and strengthen

[00:10:48] really quality relationships.

[00:10:49] And that's,

[00:10:50] as you know, Jackie,

[00:10:51] how you get everything

[00:10:51] done in life,

[00:10:52] in business,

[00:10:53] in work,

[00:10:54] for better or worse.

[00:10:54] I don't know if that's

[00:10:55] fair and reasonable

[00:10:56] but it's the way

[00:10:56] the world works, right?

[00:10:57] It's like the whole thing

[00:10:58] that's not what you know,

[00:10:58] it's who you know.

[00:11:00] And in this instance,

[00:11:00] you inadvertently

[00:11:01] happen to know the CEO

[00:11:02] which is kind of amazing.

[00:11:04] I agree with you.

[00:11:05] I mean,

[00:11:06] I feel like

[00:11:06] that's the way

[00:11:07] you network

[00:11:08] through all of these things.

[00:11:09] And I have watched,

[00:11:11] I know you're in New York City

[00:11:12] and my oldest

[00:11:14] lives in Brooklyn.

[00:11:15] They live in Bay Ridge.

[00:11:16] And New York is so,

[00:11:18] you,

[00:11:19] I was like,

[00:11:20] you can't stay in the house.

[00:11:21] They work for a job

[00:11:21] where they work for Motus.

[00:11:22] You can't stay in the house.

[00:11:23] And now they have

[00:11:24] so many friends

[00:11:25] and they have so many experiences

[00:11:27] and so many cool things.

[00:11:29] And I think that is

[00:11:31] that something else

[00:11:32] that we didn't have.

[00:11:33] Like,

[00:11:34] well,

[00:11:34] my generation,

[00:11:35] it was like,

[00:11:35] these are your five friends.

[00:11:37] These,

[00:11:37] and then you maybe

[00:11:38] you'll meet another friend

[00:11:39] at some other event

[00:11:40] by happenstance.

[00:11:41] But now you can be

[00:11:42] more specific

[00:11:44] with your relationship.

[00:11:46] I feel like

[00:11:46] you have more opportunities.

[00:11:47] And to your point

[00:11:49] around New York City,

[00:11:51] it's like,

[00:11:51] if you love to do

[00:11:52] needlepoint

[00:11:53] while drinking beer

[00:11:54] and you're obsessed

[00:11:55] with gardening,

[00:11:57] you will find your niche

[00:11:58] of people in New York City.

[00:11:59] That is right.

[00:12:00] And I love about it.

[00:12:01] It's like,

[00:12:01] there is a place

[00:12:02] for everyone

[00:12:03] in the world,

[00:12:04] but especially in New York

[00:12:05] because it's such

[00:12:05] a melting pot

[00:12:06] of wonderful,

[00:12:07] wild humans

[00:12:08] doing fascinating

[00:12:10] things in the world.

[00:12:11] You are right.

[00:12:12] Well,

[00:12:12] I have lots of questions

[00:12:13] because I was reading

[00:12:15] in your background,

[00:12:17] we've been getting

[00:12:18] to know each other.

[00:12:19] We'll let the listeners

[00:12:19] know,

[00:12:20] tell people about

[00:12:20] Maggie Palmer.

[00:12:22] Yeah,

[00:12:22] well,

[00:12:22] I'm so excited

[00:12:23] to be chatting.

[00:12:23] So yeah,

[00:12:24] my name is Maggie Palmer.

[00:12:25] I do live in New York City

[00:12:26] despite the accent.

[00:12:28] I've been in Manhattan

[00:12:29] for,

[00:12:29] well,

[00:12:30] I'm actually in Brooklyn now,

[00:12:31] but I moved here,

[00:12:31] I migrated here

[00:12:32] seven years ago

[00:12:33] on the weekend,

[00:12:34] actually.

[00:12:35] So originally Australian,

[00:12:37] grew up on a farm there.

[00:12:38] I was a journalist

[00:12:39] for a really long time.

[00:12:40] Long story short,

[00:12:41] I had an experience

[00:12:42] with the gender pay gap,

[00:12:43] became really interested

[00:12:44] in how could you solve

[00:12:45] for that problem.

[00:12:46] And so I started a company

[00:12:47] called Pep Talk Her

[00:12:48] and it's all about

[00:12:49] closing the gender pay gap

[00:12:50] and helping folks

[00:12:51] earn more money

[00:12:52] and get promoted faster.

[00:12:53] So that's what we do.

[00:12:54] We've grown to a huge community

[00:12:55] of about 70,000 folks globally.

[00:12:57] We have an app,

[00:12:58] we have a heap of courses

[00:12:59] and a big team

[00:13:00] of executive coaches

[00:13:01] that support individuals,

[00:13:03] but also HR

[00:13:05] and executive teams

[00:13:06] for employers of choice

[00:13:08] and like big employers

[00:13:09] who want to retain

[00:13:10] diverse talent.

[00:13:11] But that's so different.

[00:13:12] Like how do you go

[00:13:12] from journalism?

[00:13:14] It's like if you say,

[00:13:15] oh, this pay gap

[00:13:16] is a lot worse,

[00:13:17] maybe I can help some people

[00:13:18] to get over to here.

[00:13:19] So how did that transition happen?

[00:13:21] Yeah, well, basically it started

[00:13:22] because I was pissed off,

[00:13:23] frankly,

[00:13:24] as a lot of entrepreneurs

[00:13:24] will tell you.

[00:13:25] It was like something

[00:13:25] that annoyed them

[00:13:26] or some pain point

[00:13:27] that they observed.

[00:13:28] And for me,

[00:13:29] I basically found out

[00:13:30] I was getting paid less

[00:13:31] than the men in the newsrooms

[00:13:32] that I sat next to.

[00:13:33] And so I just thought

[00:13:34] it was a mistake.

[00:13:35] I was so naive, Jackie.

[00:13:36] I was like,

[00:13:40] if you don't like it,

[00:13:41] you can quit

[00:13:41] or take us to court.

[00:13:43] And I was like,

[00:13:44] what?

[00:13:45] Are you serious?

[00:13:46] Yeah, truly.

[00:13:47] And to be fair,

[00:13:48] this was more than a decade ago.

[00:13:50] Equally not okay.

[00:13:52] Still illegal even at that point.

[00:13:54] But I was like,

[00:13:56] I'm a child of the 80s

[00:13:57] and I was raised

[00:13:57] to like if you see something,

[00:13:58] say something.

[00:13:59] And my parents very much

[00:14:00] like gave me this ethos

[00:14:01] of like women can do anything

[00:14:03] and like girls can do anything.

[00:14:04] Like whether that was true or not,

[00:14:05] that was certainly the rhetoric

[00:14:06] that we were fed,

[00:14:07] which is great for my sister

[00:14:09] and I and my brother.

[00:14:10] But anyway,

[00:14:10] so I was just frustrated.

[00:14:11] And so then I just started

[00:14:12] a side hustle

[00:14:13] to kind of figure this out,

[00:14:14] unpack and honestly,

[00:14:15] like open up my eyes

[00:14:16] to the fact of the world

[00:14:17] that was going on

[00:14:18] that naively

[00:14:20] through my own privilege,

[00:14:21] I hadn't actually realized

[00:14:22] up until that point,

[00:14:23] which, you know,

[00:14:24] is a whole nother conversation

[00:14:25] we can unpack.

[00:14:26] But yeah,

[00:14:27] then just became really passionate

[00:14:28] about how could you change that

[00:14:29] organically started

[00:14:30] helping friends of friends

[00:14:31] and friends,

[00:14:32] cousins,

[00:14:33] sisters,

[00:14:33] whatever.

[00:14:34] And then it just kind of

[00:14:34] grew and grew and grew

[00:14:35] and we had to figure out

[00:14:36] a way to scale it.

[00:14:37] And so the app was born

[00:14:39] and all sorts of things.

[00:14:40] So here we are.

[00:14:42] Do you think,

[00:14:43] do you think,

[00:14:44] so I,

[00:14:45] I'm one,

[00:14:46] I wonder this a lot.

[00:14:47] Do you think

[00:14:49] when you find out

[00:14:51] about the salary,

[00:14:51] we always hear

[00:14:52] about the salary.

[00:14:53] Like I'm always

[00:14:53] like pushing the boundaries.

[00:14:55] I do the studies

[00:14:57] of what my salary

[00:14:58] should be.

[00:14:58] I'm always paranoid.

[00:14:59] Like it's going to be like

[00:15:00] even $1 more.

[00:15:02] Like people know

[00:15:03] that they think,

[00:15:04] like,

[00:15:04] do you think they do it?

[00:15:05] Are they doing it on purpose?

[00:15:07] Are they doing it

[00:15:08] because people aren't

[00:15:09] asking for enough?

[00:15:10] Are they doing it

[00:15:11] because this is what

[00:15:12] somebody else tell you?

[00:15:13] Where do you,

[00:15:14] where do you think

[00:15:15] some of the reasons

[00:15:16] for the campaign gap is?

[00:15:17] I mean,

[00:15:18] besides the misogyny,

[00:15:19] like besides that.

[00:15:20] Yeah.

[00:15:20] Well,

[00:15:22] you know,

[00:15:22] there's folks

[00:15:23] who are much smarter

[00:15:24] than I am

[00:15:24] who've researched this

[00:15:25] for a lot longer

[00:15:25] than I have.

[00:15:26] And,

[00:15:26] and basically a big part

[00:15:28] of it is unconscious bias.

[00:15:30] So it's pretty rare

[00:15:31] that someone would sit down

[00:15:32] and be like,

[00:15:32] hmm,

[00:15:33] let's screw over Meggie

[00:15:34] and pay her less.

[00:15:35] You know what I mean?

[00:15:35] Like,

[00:15:36] but it's,

[00:15:36] but it's this systemic,

[00:15:37] you know,

[00:15:38] decades,

[00:15:39] generations of unconscious bias.

[00:15:41] And here's an interesting fact

[00:15:42] that kind of blows my mind

[00:15:43] in a bad way.

[00:15:44] And that is that

[00:15:45] the gender pay gap

[00:15:46] starts in childhood.

[00:15:49] Again,

[00:15:49] parents aren't bad

[00:15:50] people,

[00:15:51] but,

[00:15:51] but what we find is

[00:15:52] in three separate countries

[00:15:53] across three separate

[00:15:54] research studies,

[00:15:55] they've actually proven

[00:15:56] that little boys

[00:15:58] earn more allowance

[00:15:59] than little girls.

[00:16:02] What?

[00:16:02] Stop it.

[00:16:03] I know.

[00:16:04] Isn't that like

[00:16:05] the most wild?

[00:16:06] It's like,

[00:16:06] wait,

[00:16:07] what?

[00:16:07] So we see this gap

[00:16:09] genuinely creeping

[00:16:10] at about the age of eight.

[00:16:12] And so again,

[00:16:13] it's like,

[00:16:14] and the reason

[00:16:15] is there's a perception

[00:16:17] quote unquote

[00:16:18] that like,

[00:16:19] you know,

[00:16:20] food or mowing the lawn

[00:16:21] is a tougher chore

[00:16:23] than say,

[00:16:25] setting the dinner table

[00:16:26] or,

[00:16:26] you know,

[00:16:27] doing the laundry

[00:16:28] because we've been conditioned

[00:16:30] throughout society

[00:16:31] and throughout our grandparents,

[00:16:33] our great grandparents,

[00:16:34] all these,

[00:16:34] you know,

[00:16:35] generational blah,

[00:16:35] blah,

[00:16:35] blah,

[00:16:35] blah,

[00:16:35] blah,

[00:16:36] that there's certain work

[00:16:37] that is tough

[00:16:38] and there's certain work

[00:16:39] that is easier.

[00:16:40] And so the tough work,

[00:16:41] the important work

[00:16:43] is valued at a higher price

[00:16:45] and inevitably

[00:16:47] the women's work

[00:16:48] is sadly

[00:16:50] valued lower.

[00:16:51] And so that's why,

[00:16:52] and then that perpetuates

[00:16:53] through childhood

[00:16:53] and that's why we see

[00:16:54] teachers and nurses,

[00:16:56] overwhelmingly women,

[00:16:57] get paid less

[00:16:58] than say bankers

[00:16:59] and engineers.

[00:17:00] And by the way,

[00:17:02] even in nursing

[00:17:03] and education,

[00:17:04] there is a gender pay gap

[00:17:05] in favour of men,

[00:17:08] even though

[00:17:09] it's an overwhelmingly

[00:17:11] female profession.

[00:17:12] So statistically,

[00:17:13] objectively,

[00:17:14] it should all ladder up,

[00:17:15] but no.

[00:17:16] So it's,

[00:17:17] it's,

[00:17:17] you know,

[00:17:17] it's one of those things

[00:17:18] like the gap is shifting,

[00:17:19] not as fast as we'd like

[00:17:20] and the UN reckons

[00:17:21] we're looking at about

[00:17:22] 200 years away.

[00:17:25] And like you and I

[00:17:26] are just not really willing

[00:17:26] to sit around

[00:17:27] and wait for that,

[00:17:28] right?

[00:17:28] Because it's like,

[00:17:28] what?

[00:17:29] So,

[00:17:30] you know,

[00:17:30] there's a whole bunch

[00:17:31] of stuff that we can do.

[00:17:32] There's a whole bunch

[00:17:32] of stuff that government

[00:17:33] can do in business,

[00:17:34] et cetera.

[00:17:34] But to my mind,

[00:17:35] it takes all of us

[00:17:36] like trying to,

[00:17:38] like half a percent here,

[00:17:39] quarter a percent here,

[00:17:40] one percent change here

[00:17:41] so that we can,

[00:17:42] you know,

[00:17:42] try and close that gap sooner.

[00:17:44] I feel like,

[00:17:45] you know,

[00:17:46] looking at the example

[00:17:47] of like Salesforce

[00:17:47] a number of years ago

[00:17:48] when they were like,

[00:17:49] people aren't being paid

[00:17:50] there.

[00:17:51] And then they

[00:17:52] balanced it out

[00:17:54] and then looking at

[00:17:54] people getting bonuses

[00:17:56] or raises

[00:17:57] or whatever it was

[00:17:58] and they've done it

[00:17:59] three times.

[00:18:01] Like,

[00:18:01] there is a certain level

[00:18:02] of unconscious bias

[00:18:03] of getting that together.

[00:18:05] But how do you teach

[00:18:07] other people?

[00:18:08] Because that's the part

[00:18:08] that's fascinating.

[00:18:09] Like you work with other women

[00:18:10] and trying to get it together.

[00:18:11] So,

[00:18:12] you know,

[00:18:13] how do,

[00:18:13] I'm just,

[00:18:14] I'm curious because,

[00:18:15] you know,

[00:18:16] I want to get paid

[00:18:16] what I'm worth,

[00:18:17] right?

[00:18:17] Totally.

[00:18:18] Well,

[00:18:18] and to your point,

[00:18:19] just quickly touching

[00:18:20] on the Salesforce example,

[00:18:21] we actually work with Salesforce.

[00:18:22] They,

[00:18:22] they were one of our very first

[00:18:24] big corporate clients.

[00:18:25] So we've worked with them for,

[00:18:26] I don't even know now,

[00:18:27] pre-pandemic,

[00:18:28] however long ago that is.

[00:18:29] But what's so interesting

[00:18:31] about that to your point

[00:18:32] when they figured out,

[00:18:33] Leila Seko was one

[00:18:34] of the big folks

[00:18:35] internally who kind of

[00:18:36] advocated to,

[00:18:37] for them to kind of,

[00:18:38] you know,

[00:18:38] open their eyes

[00:18:39] to the fact that there

[00:18:40] was this pay gap.

[00:18:41] My understanding is

[00:18:42] that still to this day,

[00:18:43] they,

[00:18:43] they level set

[00:18:44] every single year

[00:18:45] and every single year

[00:18:47] a little bit of a gap

[00:18:48] creeps in.

[00:18:49] And again,

[00:18:49] it's not because managers

[00:18:50] at Salesforce

[00:18:51] are necessarily bad people,

[00:18:52] it's this unconscious bias

[00:18:53] that happens,

[00:18:54] right?

[00:18:54] And so it has to be

[00:18:56] that consistent practice

[00:18:57] because otherwise

[00:18:57] our own stories

[00:18:58] and our own bias

[00:18:59] that we bring with us

[00:19:00] through our childhood,

[00:19:01] whatever,

[00:19:02] our previous life experiences

[00:19:03] creep in.

[00:19:04] But listen,

[00:19:05] there's a bunch of stuff

[00:19:06] that can be done

[00:19:06] to close the pay gap.

[00:19:08] Of course,

[00:19:08] we need like government policy,

[00:19:10] we need,

[00:19:10] you know,

[00:19:10] we need great business

[00:19:11] policy as well.

[00:19:12] Where we really work

[00:19:13] at Pep Talk Her

[00:19:14] with our communities

[00:19:15] at the grassroots level.

[00:19:16] So it's kind of like

[00:19:17] helping support

[00:19:18] individuals themselves.

[00:19:19] And,

[00:19:19] you know,

[00:19:20] a big part of that

[00:19:21] is firstly the awareness.

[00:19:23] You'd be surprised

[00:19:23] how many people

[00:19:24] don't actually know

[00:19:24] that the gender pay gap exists.

[00:19:26] And secondly,

[00:19:27] that it may be impacting.

[00:19:28] Now,

[00:19:28] it may not as well.

[00:19:29] Not everyone is impacted,

[00:19:31] but chances are.

[00:19:32] And we always say to people,

[00:19:34] Jackie,

[00:19:34] like to your point

[00:19:35] around your own situation,

[00:19:36] when you're trying

[00:19:38] to understand

[00:19:38] the gender pay gap

[00:19:39] and what you should be asking for

[00:19:40] from a salary perspective,

[00:19:41] obviously you can do

[00:19:42] your Dr. Google search.

[00:19:44] There's a heap of resources

[00:19:44] on the internet,

[00:19:45] et cetera,

[00:19:45] et cetera.

[00:19:46] You know,

[00:19:47] some companies have

[00:19:47] really transparent pay bands

[00:19:49] so you can obviously

[00:19:49] look into that.

[00:19:50] But the other thing,

[00:19:51] the big thing that I hear

[00:19:53] people forget to do

[00:19:54] all the time

[00:19:55] is actually anecdotally

[00:19:56] speaking to people.

[00:19:58] Because sometimes

[00:19:59] you'll go on the glass doors

[00:20:00] of the world

[00:20:00] and it'll be like,

[00:20:01] oh,

[00:20:01] the salary range

[00:20:02] is like $48,000

[00:20:03] up to $480,000,

[00:20:05] which is like not that helpful.

[00:20:07] So making sure

[00:20:07] that you actually talk

[00:20:08] to folks who are

[00:20:09] in the industry

[00:20:10] or adjacent industries

[00:20:11] as well.

[00:20:11] And in particular men,

[00:20:13] preferably white men,

[00:20:14] because we know

[00:20:14] from statistics

[00:20:15] that they're more likely

[00:20:16] to be earning more.

[00:20:17] So actually having

[00:20:18] a conversation with them

[00:20:19] to understand like

[00:20:20] what would their expectation

[00:20:21] be of this role?

[00:20:22] Like if they were

[00:20:23] in your shoes,

[00:20:24] what would the range be?

[00:20:25] Because the other thing

[00:20:26] is sometimes, Jackie,

[00:20:27] and I don't know about you

[00:20:28] and your listeners,

[00:20:29] but I wasn't really raised

[00:20:31] to talk about money.

[00:20:32] Like it was a bit of a,

[00:20:33] not a dirty word,

[00:20:34] but it wasn't very like kosher

[00:20:35] to talk about salary

[00:20:38] and like wealth

[00:20:39] and savings.

[00:20:40] It was like something

[00:20:40] you did maybe

[00:20:41] with your parents

[00:20:41] behind closed doors,

[00:20:42] but even then not really.

[00:20:44] And so, you know,

[00:20:45] one of the big things

[00:20:45] that I think we can all do

[00:20:46] that is a little radical,

[00:20:47] which is kind of weird

[00:20:49] to even say,

[00:20:49] is to start to talk

[00:20:50] about money

[00:20:51] and to talk about

[00:20:52] our expectations

[00:20:53] and our goals.

[00:20:54] And even if you don't

[00:20:55] feel comfortable saying,

[00:20:56] you know,

[00:20:56] I'd really love to earn

[00:20:57] $300,000 this year

[00:20:59] or $150,000

[00:21:00] or $600,000,

[00:21:01] whatever it is,

[00:21:02] even if you don't want

[00:21:03] to say that out loud,

[00:21:04] talking in ranges

[00:21:05] I find really helps people.

[00:21:06] So saying like,

[00:21:07] you know,

[00:21:07] I would love to one day

[00:21:08] be earning six figures

[00:21:09] or I would love

[00:21:11] to one day be north

[00:21:12] of a quarter of a million

[00:21:13] or something like that.

[00:21:14] And even when you're

[00:21:14] sharing information

[00:21:15] to say to people,

[00:21:16] look,

[00:21:16] if it was me going

[00:21:17] for this role,

[00:21:18] I wouldn't be accepting

[00:21:19] anything under 150.

[00:21:21] Like,

[00:21:21] so you don't have to say

[00:21:22] exactly what's on your payslip,

[00:21:24] but just starting to have

[00:21:25] that transparent conversation

[00:21:26] can be super valuable.

[00:21:28] Well,

[00:21:29] and I appreciate that

[00:21:32] the more you talk about it,

[00:21:33] then the more you can

[00:21:34] have more conversations

[00:21:35] with or getting mentors

[00:21:37] or how did you do that?

[00:21:38] I was having a conversation

[00:21:40] with someone

[00:21:40] who had just started

[00:21:42] in their career

[00:21:42] and we were talking

[00:21:43] about their salary

[00:21:44] and I guess

[00:21:47] I had a look on my face

[00:21:48] where I just didn't

[00:21:48] really flinch

[00:21:49] and they were like,

[00:21:51] how much do you make?

[00:21:52] And I told them

[00:21:53] and they were like,

[00:21:54] I want to make that

[00:21:56] one day.

[00:21:56] Like,

[00:21:57] how do you aspire

[00:21:58] to doing that?

[00:22:02] For starters,

[00:22:03] like you have to ask for it.

[00:22:05] But I think,

[00:22:06] again,

[00:22:06] kind of talking

[00:22:07] what you're talking

[00:22:08] either not knowing

[00:22:09] about money

[00:22:09] but then also culturally

[00:22:10] some people don't want

[00:22:12] to say,

[00:22:13] I am worth

[00:22:14] this amount of money

[00:22:15] or this is worth,

[00:22:17] you know,

[00:22:18] based on what you're saying

[00:22:19] or the competencies.

[00:22:20] But we've screwed it up

[00:22:21] so bad at work

[00:22:21] of people figuring out

[00:22:23] what the skills,

[00:22:24] how to,

[00:22:24] you know,

[00:22:24] what is the value

[00:22:25] of the skill?

[00:22:28] What do you think

[00:22:29] when people are applying

[00:22:30] for jobs

[00:22:30] and they're seeing

[00:22:32] them online

[00:22:32] and they do have

[00:22:33] that wild range

[00:22:34] because they still,

[00:22:36] you know,

[00:22:37] we're getting better.

[00:22:38] We're getting better.

[00:22:40] In certain states,

[00:22:41] like certain states,

[00:22:41] as you know,

[00:22:42] now have to have

[00:22:42] the band that's listed,

[00:22:44] et cetera.

[00:22:44] So some companies

[00:22:45] are being trailblazers

[00:22:48] in terms of the transparency

[00:22:49] piece for sure.

[00:22:50] What do you think

[00:22:51] people should do

[00:22:51] when they,

[00:22:52] when they're asked,

[00:22:53] what do you want

[00:22:54] to make it this role?

[00:22:56] You just tell them

[00:22:57] to do it.

[00:22:58] It's such a,

[00:22:59] it's such a great question.

[00:23:02] And it's one of those things

[00:23:03] where it depends,

[00:23:05] which is annoying

[00:23:05] because I wish there was

[00:23:06] like a,

[00:23:06] like a formula

[00:23:07] I could just give you.

[00:23:09] So it depends,

[00:23:10] right?

[00:23:10] So if you're one of three

[00:23:11] people being considered

[00:23:12] for the role

[00:23:13] and you know

[00:23:14] that you have a value set

[00:23:15] and points of difference,

[00:23:17] that means that you're in a,

[00:23:18] you're in a real shot.

[00:23:19] Like at that point,

[00:23:20] maybe you can kick that can

[00:23:21] down the road

[00:23:22] a little bit further

[00:23:22] and have a really serious

[00:23:23] negotiation.

[00:23:24] So there's,

[00:23:25] to me,

[00:23:25] it comes back to language.

[00:23:26] And that's one of the things

[00:23:28] that we teach in the programs

[00:23:28] that we run

[00:23:29] and the folks

[00:23:29] that we executive coach

[00:23:30] is like having phraseology

[00:23:32] and having sentences

[00:23:34] that you've prepared

[00:23:35] that you've said out loud

[00:23:36] before that you kind of like,

[00:23:37] and honestly,

[00:23:38] if you want to write it down

[00:23:39] on a piece of paper

[00:23:39] and take it in with you,

[00:23:40] there's no shame in that either.

[00:23:41] Like having your notes

[00:23:42] or having it written

[00:23:43] in your notepad

[00:23:43] so that if you get nervous,

[00:23:45] you can just reflect back to that.

[00:23:46] But saying things like,

[00:23:47] listen,

[00:23:48] clearly my experience

[00:23:49] and value

[00:23:50] is going to hugely contribute

[00:23:52] to this role.

[00:23:54] So I'm really excited

[00:23:55] to understand the budget

[00:23:56] and the compensation range

[00:23:57] that you all have planned

[00:23:59] for this position.

[00:24:00] And I'd love to have

[00:24:00] a further conversation

[00:24:01] with you about that.

[00:24:02] You know,

[00:24:03] so,

[00:24:04] so,

[00:24:05] and for folks

[00:24:05] that maybe not at that level

[00:24:07] where you don't know

[00:24:08] if you're in the shortlist,

[00:24:09] maybe you're one of 100 people

[00:24:10] who've applied.

[00:24:12] Again,

[00:24:12] depending on if you really need the job,

[00:24:14] because if you really need the job,

[00:24:15] if you're not going to be able

[00:24:15] to put food on the table

[00:24:16] or pay the mortgage,

[00:24:17] it's a different conversation.

[00:24:19] You have different leverage

[00:24:20] versus

[00:24:20] if you don't care

[00:24:22] and if you're quite happy

[00:24:23] in your current role,

[00:24:23] but this is like a great plan B,

[00:24:25] then you could say things like,

[00:24:26] listen,

[00:24:27] I'm super well compensated

[00:24:28] where I am.

[00:24:29] So this would have to be

[00:24:30] a really healthy offer

[00:24:31] for me to consider

[00:24:32] taking the conversation further.

[00:24:34] So again,

[00:24:35] you're not saying

[00:24:35] I want 100,

[00:24:36] 300,

[00:24:37] 700 necessarily,

[00:24:38] but you're giving an indication,

[00:24:39] hey,

[00:24:40] I'm valuable.

[00:24:41] I'm looked after where I am,

[00:24:42] which says to them,

[00:24:43] wow,

[00:24:43] she's in demand.

[00:24:44] And it also kind of

[00:24:46] sets an expectation of like,

[00:24:48] this is how

[00:24:49] this relationship

[00:24:50] is going to go

[00:24:50] and there's a boundary.

[00:24:51] I have value.

[00:24:52] I know that

[00:24:52] and I need you

[00:24:53] to understand that as well.

[00:24:54] But again,

[00:24:55] in the current job market,

[00:24:56] it's a little,

[00:24:57] it's a little difficult

[00:24:58] for folks

[00:24:58] and I understand that.

[00:24:59] So if they have advertised

[00:25:01] a range,

[00:25:02] sometimes in the application form

[00:25:03] that will allow you

[00:25:04] to put a range.

[00:25:06] So if you really want

[00:25:07] to be in the interview process,

[00:25:08] being within the range,

[00:25:10] as I understand it

[00:25:10] from recruiters

[00:25:11] and senior leaders

[00:25:12] is going to give you

[00:25:13] a better chance.

[00:25:14] Sometimes when you put

[00:25:15] severely outside of the range

[00:25:16] at the higher end,

[00:25:17] you are automatically disqualified.

[00:25:19] Now,

[00:25:20] just because you put

[00:25:20] a number in the application

[00:25:21] doesn't mean that

[00:25:22] that's what you have

[00:25:23] to take the job for

[00:25:24] if you are,

[00:25:25] you know,

[00:25:25] extended an offer.

[00:25:26] So everything is negotiable.

[00:25:28] Do you know what I mean?

[00:25:29] Up until the point,

[00:25:29] but it's really difficult.

[00:25:30] It is really,

[00:25:31] really difficult for people.

[00:25:32] If there's no salary

[00:25:33] range indicated,

[00:25:35] sometimes I know people

[00:25:36] who just leave

[00:25:37] that section blank

[00:25:38] if the form will allow it.

[00:25:41] Sometimes people lowball

[00:25:42] because they want

[00:25:43] to be considered.

[00:25:49] Without it,

[00:25:50] what we see is that

[00:25:50] women and folks of color

[00:25:53] are unfairly discriminated against

[00:25:54] and that just keeps

[00:25:55] getting perpetuated.

[00:25:56] And I mean,

[00:25:57] here's the hot take

[00:25:58] that people don't know.

[00:25:59] There's an actual number

[00:26:02] that the CFO has looked at.

[00:26:04] Like,

[00:26:05] I always say,

[00:26:05] this is the lifetime range

[00:26:07] of the role.

[00:26:08] Yeah.

[00:26:09] Like,

[00:26:09] but this is what

[00:26:10] we've budgeted for this role.

[00:26:11] This is what we're,

[00:26:12] this is what we're expecting

[00:26:14] to pay for the role

[00:26:15] or this is what

[00:26:16] the last person

[00:26:17] made in the role.

[00:26:19] And this,

[00:26:19] but we also

[00:26:20] at our organization

[00:26:21] looks and we're like,

[00:26:22] this is what is a fair salary

[00:26:23] for this role.

[00:26:24] Yeah.

[00:26:25] This is what everybody's making.

[00:26:27] This is where,

[00:26:28] you know,

[00:26:28] so that's where we're looking

[00:26:29] for someone

[00:26:29] within that range.

[00:26:31] But it does come

[00:26:33] from a place of privilege

[00:26:34] starting out.

[00:26:36] It's really good

[00:26:37] to know what you need

[00:26:37] to make.

[00:26:38] I find so many people

[00:26:39] don't even know like,

[00:26:41] okay,

[00:26:42] how much is it gonna,

[00:26:43] where you would be

[00:26:44] happy and comfortable?

[00:26:46] Yeah.

[00:26:46] Totally.

[00:26:47] And the other thing is,

[00:26:48] like I run a business,

[00:26:49] you run a business.

[00:26:49] It's like,

[00:26:50] the thing is,

[00:26:51] is that you also,

[00:26:53] everyone thinks

[00:26:54] the employer

[00:26:54] has all the power.

[00:26:56] It's like,

[00:26:56] I really want this fancy job.

[00:26:57] I really need

[00:26:58] this health insurance.

[00:26:59] And that can be true.

[00:27:00] And also,

[00:27:01] they're hiring you

[00:27:02] for a reason.

[00:27:03] And that reason,

[00:27:04] nine times out of 10

[00:27:04] is because you're gonna

[00:27:05] add value or add revenue

[00:27:06] to that business line,

[00:27:08] right?

[00:27:08] Or make someone's life easier,

[00:27:09] which frees up their time

[00:27:10] to add value

[00:27:11] or add revenue

[00:27:12] to the business.

[00:27:13] So like,

[00:27:14] you know,

[00:27:15] like there is a value

[00:27:16] that you're bringing

[00:27:16] to that organization.

[00:27:17] And also,

[00:27:18] employers want you

[00:27:19] to be paid well.

[00:27:20] Like,

[00:27:21] you know,

[00:27:22] we have a team,

[00:27:24] et cetera.

[00:27:24] We're not the level

[00:27:25] of Salesforce.

[00:27:26] We're not,

[00:27:26] you know,

[00:27:27] we're not a Fortune 100 company.

[00:27:28] Equally,

[00:27:29] it's really annoying

[00:27:30] when my staff leave.

[00:27:31] That causes me stress.

[00:27:33] It causes me angst.

[00:27:34] It wastes my,

[00:27:34] no,

[00:27:35] it doesn't waste my time,

[00:27:35] but it takes up my time

[00:27:37] because I have to off board.

[00:27:38] We throw farewell parties

[00:27:40] and I have to hire.

[00:27:40] It's like a whole process.

[00:27:42] I lose institutional knowledge.

[00:27:44] So the thing is,

[00:27:44] people actually want to retain you.

[00:27:46] So if it means

[00:27:48] that I have to pay staff

[00:27:49] a little bit more,

[00:27:51] okay,

[00:27:51] you know,

[00:27:52] does that eat into

[00:27:52] other parts of the business?

[00:27:53] Maybe,

[00:27:54] but does that give me time back?

[00:27:55] Does that reduce my stress?

[00:27:56] Yes,

[00:27:57] yes,

[00:27:57] and yes.

[00:27:57] So that's the other thing,

[00:27:59] right?

[00:27:59] Like often your employer

[00:28:00] or your boss

[00:28:01] will be happy

[00:28:02] to have a conversation,

[00:28:04] a candid and frank conversation

[00:28:05] about money

[00:28:06] if it means

[00:28:06] that they can retain you.

[00:28:08] And if you don't ask,

[00:28:09] you don't know,

[00:28:10] you know,

[00:28:10] and I always say to people,

[00:28:12] you should be having a conversation

[00:28:14] about compensation

[00:28:15] every single year.

[00:28:17] Now,

[00:28:17] you may not get a raise

[00:28:18] every single year,

[00:28:19] but you've got to have

[00:28:20] the conversation,

[00:28:21] right?

[00:28:21] And you've also got to be

[00:28:22] coming to the table

[00:28:23] with receipts,

[00:28:24] right?

[00:28:24] It's like,

[00:28:25] it's not just like,

[00:28:25] hey,

[00:28:26] I'm a lovely human.

[00:28:27] Can I have a pay raise?

[00:28:28] It's not enough,

[00:28:29] right?

[00:28:29] You've got to be like,

[00:28:30] I hired three people

[00:28:31] successfully this year,

[00:28:32] which saved the company

[00:28:33] $30,000 in recruitment fees.

[00:28:35] I've,

[00:28:35] you know,

[00:28:36] increased our productivity

[00:28:37] by 7%,

[00:28:38] which has meant

[00:28:39] that our NPS

[00:28:40] has gone up by 3%.

[00:28:42] You know,

[00:28:42] I talked to the local

[00:28:43] stationary shop

[00:28:44] and negotiated a 10% discount,

[00:28:46] which is saving us

[00:28:46] 700 bucks a month,

[00:28:47] whatever it is,

[00:28:48] right?

[00:28:48] Or I've increased sales

[00:28:49] by however much,

[00:28:51] which whatever,

[00:28:51] whatever.

[00:28:52] You can figure out

[00:28:52] what that is for you.

[00:28:53] Maybe you're involved

[00:28:54] in employee resource groups.

[00:28:55] Maybe you started

[00:28:56] a mentoring

[00:28:57] and an intern program.

[00:28:58] It doesn't have to always

[00:28:59] be dollars and cents,

[00:29:00] but how are you adding value

[00:29:01] to the culture?

[00:29:02] And you've got to track that,

[00:29:04] right?

[00:29:04] You've got to write it down.

[00:29:05] And that's why we built

[00:29:06] the Pep Talker app

[00:29:07] because bosses are busy.

[00:29:09] Bosses have got

[00:29:10] Netflix shows to watch too.

[00:29:11] You know,

[00:29:11] like they've got dozens

[00:29:12] of people to manage.

[00:29:14] They've got divorces

[00:29:15] that they're dealing with.

[00:29:16] They've got sick children.

[00:29:17] They've got renovation projects.

[00:29:18] People are busy.

[00:29:19] And so it's your job,

[00:29:21] I think,

[00:29:22] to keep yourself

[00:29:23] front of mind

[00:29:24] and the value

[00:29:25] that you're adding

[00:29:25] to the business

[00:29:25] front of mind

[00:29:26] so that when the decisions

[00:29:28] are being made

[00:29:29] about promotions,

[00:29:29] about compensation,

[00:29:30] at least you're front of mind.

[00:29:31] They might still say no,

[00:29:33] but at least you know

[00:29:34] where you stand, right?

[00:29:35] Like I think it's better

[00:29:36] for you to have that knowledge

[00:29:37] and they might say,

[00:29:38] listen, the economy sucks.

[00:29:39] We're in a bit of trouble.

[00:29:40] There might be layoffs.

[00:29:41] I'd love to give you

[00:29:42] an extra $17,000.

[00:29:44] We can't,

[00:29:45] but I'd love to keep you.

[00:29:46] And then maybe you can say,

[00:29:47] well, listen,

[00:29:48] could you give me

[00:29:48] four days off

[00:29:49] off the books

[00:29:50] at Thanksgiving

[00:29:50] and we'll call it a day?

[00:29:51] You know, like what else

[00:29:52] could you negotiate

[00:29:53] outside of compensation

[00:29:54] as well?

[00:29:55] Because that's the other thing.

[00:29:56] And Jackie,

[00:29:56] I'm sure you know this

[00:29:57] from your work.

[00:29:57] It's like,

[00:29:58] it's not just about

[00:29:59] the salary,

[00:29:59] like the dollars

[00:30:00] that you're getting

[00:30:01] in your paycheck.

[00:30:01] There's more to it as well.

[00:30:03] That is so true.

[00:30:04] We were having,

[00:30:05] like me and my work bestie,

[00:30:07] we were just bickering

[00:30:08] back and forth.

[00:30:09] Like, oh,

[00:30:10] this is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:30:11] And I was like,

[00:30:12] and still,

[00:30:13] my worst day here

[00:30:14] is 10 times better

[00:30:16] than any day anywhere else.

[00:30:18] Like, you know,

[00:30:19] granted,

[00:30:20] I still want a new hoodie.

[00:30:23] Like,

[00:30:23] obviously.

[00:30:24] Or whatever you're complaining

[00:30:25] about.

[00:30:26] Sure.

[00:30:27] Yeah.

[00:30:28] I don't remember

[00:30:28] if it was like,

[00:30:29] can't we just have

[00:30:30] a pizza lunch?

[00:30:30] I don't remember

[00:30:31] what it was.

[00:30:31] It wasn't significant.

[00:30:33] But it's like,

[00:30:34] I think you do

[00:30:35] have to put those things

[00:30:37] in mind.

[00:30:38] Yeah.

[00:30:38] But you also need to,

[00:30:40] I love the thought

[00:30:41] of putting it down

[00:30:42] and knowing your value

[00:30:43] and being able

[00:30:44] to have those conversations

[00:30:45] because part of the reason

[00:30:46] people leave

[00:30:46] is that they don't feel

[00:30:47] like they're having impact.

[00:30:49] But like,

[00:30:51] did you have,

[00:30:52] first of all,

[00:30:52] maybe you didn't,

[00:30:53] rare,

[00:30:53] but maybe you don't even realize

[00:30:55] your own impact.

[00:30:56] And that's something else.

[00:30:58] I mean,

[00:30:59] my coach,

[00:31:00] I think,

[00:31:01] taught me the best lesson

[00:31:02] one day when I was like,

[00:31:03] this is what I'm working on.

[00:31:05] It's a little high stress.

[00:31:06] I need to talk to my boss

[00:31:07] about the things.

[00:31:09] And they were,

[00:31:10] it was their way of,

[00:31:12] you know,

[00:31:12] they're an executive coach.

[00:31:13] So they talk in funny terms

[00:31:15] and said,

[00:31:16] do you feel like

[00:31:17] you're doing tasks

[00:31:17] that are outside

[00:31:18] of your title

[00:31:19] or your salary?

[00:31:20] Which no one

[00:31:21] ever asked me before.

[00:31:22] And I was like,

[00:31:24] no.

[00:31:25] They were like,

[00:31:26] so is it just time management?

[00:31:27] Like,

[00:31:27] do you need a time management?

[00:31:29] Like,

[00:31:30] is it you?

[00:31:30] I was like,

[00:31:31] oh my God.

[00:31:33] And,

[00:31:33] but what a great question

[00:31:35] because it's so,

[00:31:36] it's so easy.

[00:31:37] And listen,

[00:31:38] I do this as well.

[00:31:39] Like,

[00:31:39] and that's when I've got found,

[00:31:40] when I,

[00:31:40] you know,

[00:31:41] my whole experience back

[00:31:41] when I was a correspondent,

[00:31:42] when I was getting paid less,

[00:31:44] I totally spiraled.

[00:31:45] I was like,

[00:31:46] F the world.

[00:31:47] Woe is me.

[00:31:48] Oh my gosh.

[00:31:49] You know,

[00:31:49] like blah,

[00:31:49] like you just,

[00:31:50] you know,

[00:31:50] of course.

[00:31:51] And then I realized like,

[00:31:53] I can keep blaming other people

[00:31:54] and I can keep spiraling

[00:31:55] or I can actually take ownership

[00:31:58] over this and go,

[00:31:58] okay,

[00:31:58] what about this?

[00:31:59] Can I change?

[00:32:00] I can't change their opinions.

[00:32:01] I can't change their bias.

[00:32:02] But what I can do is this,

[00:32:04] what I can ask for is this.

[00:32:05] And what I love about the question

[00:32:06] that your executive coach

[00:32:07] is asking you is she's like,

[00:32:08] Jackie,

[00:32:09] like,

[00:32:10] is that something

[00:32:10] that you can control?

[00:32:11] Right?

[00:32:12] Like what is within your control?

[00:32:13] And I think that's

[00:32:14] such a powerful thing.

[00:32:15] And even,

[00:32:15] you know,

[00:32:16] the question,

[00:32:17] sorry,

[00:32:17] the point you made earlier

[00:32:18] where you said

[00:32:19] your worst day

[00:32:20] in your current role

[00:32:20] is 10 times better

[00:32:21] than prior jobs

[00:32:22] that you've had.

[00:32:23] To me,

[00:32:24] that's an amazing opportunity

[00:32:25] for a moment of gratitude

[00:32:26] to feed that up

[00:32:28] the food chain

[00:32:28] to your leaders,

[00:32:30] to their leaders,

[00:32:31] to the board,

[00:32:31] whoever it is,

[00:32:32] because we,

[00:32:33] everyone listening knows,

[00:32:34] like we get so many emails

[00:32:36] every day

[00:32:36] or Slack messages

[00:32:37] or whatever.

[00:32:38] There's this problem.

[00:32:39] There's this problem.

[00:32:39] I need this fixed.

[00:32:40] This,

[00:32:40] this is an issue.

[00:32:41] How many times a day

[00:32:42] do we get an email

[00:32:43] or a text that says,

[00:32:45] thank you,

[00:32:45] you're doing a great job?

[00:32:47] You know?

[00:32:47] Girl.

[00:32:48] Girl.

[00:32:48] Girl.

[00:32:48] Girl.

[00:32:48] Because that's the part

[00:32:50] that is,

[00:32:51] and when,

[00:32:52] you know,

[00:32:52] speaking from a place

[00:32:53] of privilege

[00:32:53] but also understanding

[00:32:54] your role

[00:32:55] as you go through

[00:32:56] your career,

[00:32:56] like career journeys

[00:32:58] and title journeys,

[00:32:59] I think get really skewed

[00:33:02] in from having

[00:33:03] those conversations.

[00:33:04] I was looking,

[00:33:05] and especially,

[00:33:06] I,

[00:33:07] I'm thinking of

[00:33:09] Black women,

[00:33:10] we were talking

[00:33:11] about working harder

[00:33:13] and I was at this conference

[00:33:15] and they were saying,

[00:33:16] oh,

[00:33:16] we shouldn't have

[00:33:16] to work harder.

[00:33:17] You should be working smarter

[00:33:18] or doing things

[00:33:19] and I said,

[00:33:21] I,

[00:33:21] I do have to work harder

[00:33:22] and someone,

[00:33:23] I was like,

[00:33:24] because my job

[00:33:24] is getting other people

[00:33:25] to work harder.

[00:33:26] That's my,

[00:33:27] that's my job.

[00:33:28] I need to work harder

[00:33:29] at getting other people

[00:33:29] to work harder.

[00:33:31] Not,

[00:33:32] I'm not talking about

[00:33:33] turning all the widgets

[00:33:35] and so making sure

[00:33:36] that people understand,

[00:33:37] like,

[00:33:38] you know,

[00:33:39] there is a certain amount

[00:33:40] of,

[00:33:40] of,

[00:33:41] of

[00:33:42] things that you can control

[00:33:43] or things that you influence

[00:33:45] or things that you can't

[00:33:46] and then being able to

[00:33:47] put those to

[00:33:49] what your salary should be

[00:33:50] and that's what we used to do

[00:33:52] in HR

[00:33:52] was be able to say,

[00:33:54] these are the competencies

[00:33:55] that you have to,

[00:33:57] you know,

[00:33:57] for this role.

[00:33:58] This is the value

[00:33:59] of those competencies.

[00:34:00] These are the amount

[00:34:01] and that's how you know,

[00:34:02] also,

[00:34:03] am I not being paid

[00:34:04] for the work that I'm doing

[00:34:05] or am I getting overpaid

[00:34:07] and I'm not giving the value

[00:34:08] based on what the competencies are,

[00:34:11] not based on,

[00:34:12] but I'm working really hard

[00:34:13] and I think that's what

[00:34:14] people always come back

[00:34:16] and say,

[00:34:17] I'm working hard

[00:34:17] so I deserve this amount

[00:34:19] of money

[00:34:19] without realizing

[00:34:20] what is your impact

[00:34:22] and also,

[00:34:24] there's already,

[00:34:25] this conversation's been had

[00:34:26] behind closed doors,

[00:34:28] even if it's just

[00:34:28] the CEO and CFO,

[00:34:30] you may not have been

[00:34:31] privileged to the conversation

[00:34:32] but the conversation's been had.

[00:34:34] So working harder,

[00:34:36] coming up with these wild

[00:34:38] things that you want

[00:34:38] to implement,

[00:34:39] it may not make an impact

[00:34:40] on what you get paid

[00:34:42] if they don't have the money

[00:34:42] to be able to give it.

[00:34:43] So you have to have

[00:34:45] those conversations every year.

[00:34:47] Totally.

[00:34:48] And to your point,

[00:34:49] the conversations are happening

[00:34:51] often without you in the room

[00:34:53] and so,

[00:34:53] you know,

[00:34:54] I hear a lot of frustration

[00:34:56] from folks in our community

[00:34:57] and even with some

[00:34:58] of the corporates

[00:34:58] that we work with,

[00:34:59] you know,

[00:34:59] employees will say,

[00:35:00] well,

[00:35:00] I don't get that visibility

[00:35:01] with my manager.

[00:35:02] I don't get that visibility

[00:35:04] with leadership

[00:35:05] and I think one of the reasons

[00:35:06] why companies love working with us

[00:35:07] and why they bring us in

[00:35:08] is because we actually train,

[00:35:10] train,

[00:35:11] you know,

[00:35:11] teams,

[00:35:12] staff,

[00:35:12] employee resource groups,

[00:35:13] women's networks,

[00:35:14] whatever it is.

[00:35:14] We train those individuals

[00:35:16] to say,

[00:35:17] you've got to,

[00:35:18] you've got to be the person

[00:35:19] who's amplifying your value

[00:35:21] to your boss.

[00:35:22] So at least they know.

[00:35:23] They still may make a decision

[00:35:24] that you're not happy with

[00:35:25] but at least then

[00:35:26] you've got a staff

[00:35:27] and a body of people

[00:35:29] who feel empowered

[00:35:30] to have those conversations

[00:35:31] because the transparency

[00:35:32] of communication

[00:35:33] is important too

[00:35:35] because otherwise

[00:35:35] to your earlier point,

[00:35:36] Jackie,

[00:35:37] people leave

[00:35:37] because they feel like

[00:35:38] they're not having an impact

[00:35:39] or they're not being heard.

[00:35:40] So sometimes

[00:35:41] they just want to be heard

[00:35:42] and they just want to have

[00:35:43] the opportunity

[00:35:43] to send you an email

[00:35:44] once a month

[00:35:45] saying here's the metrics

[00:35:46] that I've hit

[00:35:47] and sometimes

[00:35:48] that's all folks need

[00:35:49] and it kind of blows

[00:35:52] people's minds

[00:35:53] sometimes when we talk

[00:35:53] to them.

[00:35:54] There's this concept

[00:35:54] that we have

[00:35:56] called the FYI only email

[00:35:58] which is this idea

[00:35:59] that you should

[00:35:59] be consistently

[00:36:01] communicating to your boss

[00:36:02] what you've been achieving,

[00:36:04] the boulders

[00:36:05] you've been moving up the hill

[00:36:06] because if you only do that

[00:36:08] at your performance review

[00:36:08] once a year,

[00:36:10] guess what?

[00:36:10] If you've moved

[00:36:11] the wrong boulder

[00:36:11] you might be getting

[00:36:12] moved out, right?

[00:36:13] Whereas if you can

[00:36:14] consistently monthly

[00:36:15] every two weeks

[00:36:16] whatever it is

[00:36:17] depending on your boss's

[00:36:18] communication tolerance

[00:36:19] if you can consistently

[00:36:20] do that

[00:36:20] they can pick up

[00:36:21] mistakes earlier

[00:36:22] or they can give you

[00:36:23] kudos earlier

[00:36:23] which again

[00:36:24] is going to keep

[00:36:25] people engaged

[00:36:26] because people

[00:36:26] just want to feel heard

[00:36:27] they want to hear

[00:36:28] the value

[00:36:29] and hear the impact

[00:36:29] even if it's just

[00:36:30] like a thumbs up

[00:36:31] on Slack

[00:36:32] sometimes

[00:36:33] something as simple

[00:36:33] as that

[00:36:34] really can buoy people

[00:36:35] for another quarter

[00:36:36] you know

[00:36:37] because I think

[00:36:37] sometimes as managers

[00:36:38] we think

[00:36:38] we don't have time

[00:36:39] to take everyone

[00:36:40] for lunch

[00:36:40] every week

[00:36:41] whatever

[00:36:42] and I don't think

[00:36:42] it has to be that

[00:36:43] to our point

[00:36:44] earlier

[00:36:44] our conversation

[00:36:45] about gratitude

[00:36:45] and just like

[00:36:46] saying hey

[00:36:46] well done

[00:36:47] that was a really

[00:36:47] hard team meeting

[00:36:48] to run

[00:36:49] it was awkward

[00:36:49] but you handled it

[00:36:50] well

[00:36:51] like sometimes

[00:36:51] that's all people

[00:36:52] need

[00:36:52] to kind of

[00:36:53] give them

[00:36:53] that momentum

[00:36:54] to keep going

[00:36:54] to keep failing

[00:36:56] to keep trying

[00:36:56] again right

[00:36:57] as we all try

[00:36:58] to build

[00:36:58] these amazing

[00:36:59] cultures

[00:36:59] that we're

[00:36:59] looking for

[00:37:01] that's a great

[00:37:01] tip too

[00:37:02] of you know

[00:37:03] letting people

[00:37:03] know

[00:37:04] kind of managing

[00:37:05] up

[00:37:05] but I think

[00:37:08] there's no but

[00:37:09] it is a good

[00:37:10] thing that you

[00:37:11] should be able

[00:37:11] to do

[00:37:12] I think

[00:37:12] you are trying

[00:37:13] to get

[00:37:14] I think feedback

[00:37:15] is one of the

[00:37:15] things that is

[00:37:16] really difficult

[00:37:16] making sure

[00:37:17] that you're

[00:37:17] getting feedback

[00:37:18] that you're

[00:37:18] getting good

[00:37:19] feedback

[00:37:20] and to make

[00:37:22] sure that

[00:37:22] you're prioritizing

[00:37:23] effectively

[00:37:24] especially in a

[00:37:25] remote environment

[00:37:26] when you don't

[00:37:26] know what

[00:37:26] everybody's working

[00:37:27] on or

[00:37:28] if you're

[00:37:28] doing those

[00:37:29] things

[00:37:30] but then also

[00:37:31] finding out

[00:37:31] how are your

[00:37:32] compensated

[00:37:33] you might

[00:37:33] check in

[00:37:34] with HR

[00:37:34] to see

[00:37:35] if they have

[00:37:36] a policy

[00:37:37] already in

[00:37:37] place

[00:37:37] you know

[00:37:39] all of those

[00:37:40] things

[00:37:40] I think a lot

[00:37:41] more goes

[00:37:42] into it

[00:37:43] on the back

[00:37:44] end

[00:37:44] but again

[00:37:45] like we said

[00:37:46] it's already

[00:37:46] been pre-planned

[00:37:48] like even

[00:37:49] if you did

[00:37:50] a really

[00:37:50] really great

[00:37:50] thing

[00:37:51] they weren't

[00:37:51] expecting you

[00:37:52] to do that

[00:37:52] really really

[00:37:53] great thing

[00:37:53] to give you

[00:37:54] maybe a

[00:37:55] ten thousand

[00:37:55] dollar bonus

[00:37:56] or might not

[00:37:57] even notice

[00:37:58] or might

[00:37:58] expect it

[00:37:58] to be a

[00:37:59] part of

[00:37:59] your job

[00:37:59] like oh

[00:38:00] I guess

[00:38:00] that's just

[00:38:01] that's what

[00:38:01] we expected

[00:38:02] I remember

[00:38:03] real early

[00:38:04] in my career

[00:38:04] I was in

[00:38:05] recruiting

[00:38:05] and we came

[00:38:06] to work

[00:38:07] and our chairs

[00:38:07] were gone

[00:38:08] and they said

[00:38:09] if you were

[00:38:09] your own

[00:38:10] recruiters

[00:38:10] if this was

[00:38:11] your own

[00:38:11] company

[00:38:11] you wouldn't

[00:38:12] afford

[00:38:12] chairs

[00:38:13] you couldn't

[00:38:14] afford

[00:38:14] chairs

[00:38:14] because you

[00:38:15] didn't make

[00:38:15] any starts

[00:38:16] this week

[00:38:18] true story

[00:38:19] they were like

[00:38:20] you haven't

[00:38:20] earned your

[00:38:20] chairs

[00:38:21] not kidding

[00:38:22] that was

[00:38:23] back when

[00:38:23] you couldn't

[00:38:24] abuse

[00:38:24] employees

[00:38:25] yeah that

[00:38:26] sounds a bit

[00:38:26] okay

[00:38:28] interesting

[00:38:28] one tactic

[00:38:29] I guess

[00:38:31] yeah they

[00:38:31] didn't last

[00:38:32] very long

[00:38:32] but they

[00:38:32] did do

[00:38:33] that

[00:38:33] but maybe

[00:38:34] think about

[00:38:35] like another

[00:38:36] way of saying

[00:38:36] that of

[00:38:37] like what

[00:38:37] is your

[00:38:38] expectation

[00:38:39] like what

[00:38:39] was so scary

[00:38:40] about that

[00:38:41] is I would

[00:38:41] have never

[00:38:42] thought anybody

[00:38:42] would have

[00:38:43] done that

[00:38:52] what do

[00:38:53] you think

[00:38:53] mistakes

[00:38:53] what mistakes

[00:38:54] do people

[00:38:54] make on a

[00:38:55] regular basis

[00:38:56] as you hear

[00:38:57] these stories

[00:38:57] and I'm sure

[00:38:58] you hear some

[00:38:58] nightmares

[00:38:59] oh my gosh

[00:39:00] of course

[00:39:00] I mean we

[00:39:01] hear mistakes

[00:39:01] on both

[00:39:02] sides

[00:39:02] but you know

[00:39:02] there's a lot

[00:39:03] I think

[00:39:04] you know

[00:39:05] I think a

[00:39:05] big part of

[00:39:06] the reason

[00:39:06] why people

[00:39:07] leave companies

[00:39:07] because they

[00:39:08] get frustrated

[00:39:08] but then

[00:39:09] often what

[00:39:09] we'll say

[00:39:10] to them

[00:39:10] is we're

[00:39:11] like okay

[00:39:11] so how do

[00:39:11] you express

[00:39:12] that frustration

[00:39:12] up the food

[00:39:13] chain

[00:39:13] are they

[00:39:14] aware of

[00:39:14] your frustration

[00:39:15] and nine

[00:39:16] times out of

[00:39:16] ten people

[00:39:16] will be like

[00:39:17] oh no

[00:39:17] or maybe

[00:39:18] I did say

[00:39:18] something three

[00:39:19] years ago

[00:39:19] and I haven't

[00:39:20] said something

[00:39:20] since

[00:39:21] I'll never

[00:39:22] forget one

[00:39:22] of my clients

[00:39:23] she said

[00:39:25] you know

[00:39:27] I'm incapable

[00:39:28] of getting a

[00:39:28] pay raise

[00:39:29] and I was

[00:39:29] like oh

[00:39:29] why not

[00:39:30] she's like

[00:39:30] well I asked

[00:39:31] for one

[00:39:31] and they

[00:39:31] said no

[00:39:32] and I was

[00:39:33] like well

[00:39:33] when was

[00:39:33] that

[00:39:33] and she

[00:39:33] was like

[00:39:34] that was

[00:39:34] five

[00:39:34] years ago

[00:39:35] so not only

[00:39:36] had she not

[00:39:36] gotten a pay

[00:39:37] increase

[00:39:37] she also

[00:39:37] hadn't

[00:39:37] gotten

[00:39:38] inflation

[00:39:38] so as we

[00:39:39] know

[00:39:39] of course

[00:39:39] she was

[00:39:40] sliding

[00:39:40] backwards

[00:39:40] anyway

[00:39:41] so the

[00:39:42] fact is

[00:39:42] you have

[00:39:43] to ask

[00:39:43] but also

[00:39:44] to your

[00:39:44] point around

[00:39:44] expectations

[00:39:45] if you're

[00:39:46] having a

[00:39:46] conversation

[00:39:47] about your

[00:39:47] compensation

[00:39:48] and your

[00:39:48] performance

[00:39:48] and a

[00:39:49] frank

[00:39:50] conversation

[00:39:50] where you

[00:39:50] actually

[00:39:51] invite

[00:39:51] feedback

[00:39:52] yes you

[00:39:53] might have

[00:39:53] an ask

[00:39:54] but secondly

[00:39:54] hopefully

[00:39:54] you've been

[00:39:55] tracking all

[00:39:55] your wins

[00:39:56] in our

[00:39:56] app

[00:39:56] so you

[00:39:57] actually

[00:39:57] have a

[00:39:58] database

[00:39:58] of success

[00:39:59] points

[00:40:00] of statistics

[00:40:01] of wins

[00:40:01] of you

[00:40:02] know screenshots

[00:40:03] of feedback

[00:40:03] from colleagues

[00:40:04] or clients

[00:40:05] or board

[00:40:05] members

[00:40:05] photos

[00:40:06] of events

[00:40:06] you've

[00:40:06] organized

[00:40:07] whatever

[00:40:07] it is

[00:40:07] you've

[00:40:08] then got

[00:40:08] receipts

[00:40:08] you can

[00:40:09] kind of

[00:40:09] take into

[00:40:09] that

[00:40:10] meeting

[00:40:10] fine

[00:40:10] but then also

[00:40:12] asking for frank feedback to say like because if the boss or the leader says you know listen you're not getting a pay increase that's helpful because you can say look i'm disappointed i'd love to know what do you need from me between now and 12 months so that it's a no brainer to say tick tick tick tick yes yes yes yes in future and they might say to you well you've got to you know reduce the cost of the chairs or whatever it is to that example yet like whatever but at least then you need to get clear

[00:40:39] guardrails of what to say to you to go away from this to you and then you can get to go back to theest to go to ask if you know if you can't give that to you then you can make the decision to push back against that and see if you can negotiate realistic expectations or perhaps it's not the place for you or your skill set perhaps it's not where your zone of genius is suited right but then you have that data but then you have that data but i

[00:41:08] I find a lot of people, Jackie, and I don't know if this is the same at your company,

[00:41:11] a lot of people are scared to ask because of the unknown.

[00:41:15] They don't know what they're going to say.

[00:41:16] What if they say something negative?

[00:41:17] I think negative feedback is a gift because if you don't get that feedback,

[00:41:22] you'll eventually get made redundant or get fired.

[00:41:24] I'd rather know now and then I can say, well, that's ridiculous.

[00:41:27] I don't agree with that.

[00:41:29] Or absolutely, I can fix that by doing ABC tweak or getting XYZ course to help me level up.

[00:41:35] So to me, the biggest mistake that I see is that people are not proactively communicating

[00:41:39] in particular up within the organization.

[00:41:42] So firstly, what are you doing and how are you adding value?

[00:41:45] And secondly, what do they need from you?

[00:41:47] Right?

[00:41:48] Because like what do they need from you?

[00:41:50] Because when you were hired three years ago, guess what?

[00:41:52] It's a very different world.

[00:41:54] AIs change things.

[00:41:55] The economies change things.

[00:41:57] Post-COVID has changed things.

[00:41:58] Your team, the generations coming into your team is changing.

[00:42:01] And so your role is changing.

[00:42:03] And that's not easy.

[00:42:05] And I'm not saying, you know, we all love change as much as some folks, but like we've

[00:42:10] got to be realistic.

[00:42:11] I personally would rather have the information and know that it's going to be really difficult

[00:42:16] or not.

[00:42:17] And then at least I can act accordingly and upskill where I need to.

[00:42:20] Yes.

[00:42:21] I, and I love hearing that.

[00:42:24] It's so important of knowing.

[00:42:26] I think there is a level of fear.

[00:42:28] And then as a manager, I'd like to ask at least once a quarter, do you have everything

[00:42:32] you need to be able to do your job?

[00:42:34] Because sometimes I've given an assignment and then I was like, can they even do it?

[00:42:39] Like, do they need the software?

[00:42:40] I know I didn't buy that thing.

[00:42:41] Like, do they have everything they need to be able to be successful?

[00:42:45] Is it something that I can add?

[00:42:47] And if it's not, maybe to your point, I can teach them a skill or it's, I could give

[00:42:52] them a course or mentorship or partnership or all of these different things.

[00:42:56] Because you want to keep that other knowledge with the organization because it costs so much

[00:43:01] to replace people.

[00:43:02] It costs so much to replace people.

[00:43:04] And I'd say nine times out of 10, the reason that we get hired by corporates is because they

[00:43:08] don't want to, the retention of staff.

[00:43:11] People would much prefer to retain staff, especially diverse staff, right?

[00:43:15] Because a lot of companies nowadays, as you know, have targets in terms of leadership

[00:43:18] positions, senior roles, and that talent is churning because they're in high demand, but

[00:43:23] also because they're not feeling valued necessarily.

[00:43:25] I actually just recently went to an amazing retreat with someone called Chip Conley, who's

[00:43:31] ex Airbnb.

[00:43:32] And he now runs this organization called the Modern Elder Academy, which is a whole nother

[00:43:37] conversation.

[00:43:38] But the question that he used to ask his staff, which I think is adjacent to what you've just

[00:43:42] said is, what do you need from me so that you can do the best work of your life?

[00:43:47] The best, most fulfilling work of your life.

[00:43:50] And I just think it's such a lovely framing because to your point, it's like, do you need

[00:43:53] a course?

[00:43:54] Do you need a better laptop?

[00:43:55] You know, do you need a co-working space?

[00:43:56] Whatever.

[00:43:57] But also kind of to make it the best work, it also allows people and kind of forces them

[00:44:01] to think bigger than day to day and to go, well, actually, and maybe you can do it, maybe

[00:44:07] you can't.

[00:44:08] But at least it's opening those neural pathways for them to sort of take the blinkers off

[00:44:12] of the hustle and the day to day and go, if I was to do the best work, wow, what

[00:44:16] could that look like?

[00:44:17] Right.

[00:44:18] I think about that a lot, especially when I'm looking at trying to be more inclusive

[00:44:23] and have people feel like they belong of what would it look like if, you know, we ask, you've

[00:44:29] heard this at different conferences, I'm sure, like if money wasn't an object, what would

[00:44:33] it look like?

[00:44:34] But if fear wasn't in place, like what work would you be doing right now?

[00:44:39] If you weren't afraid of like the lights being cut off or, you know, having to mow the grass

[00:44:46] about like a five acre property, like what would you?

[00:44:49] It's such a great question because it gets us out of our now.

[00:44:53] It gets us out of the day and because you get stuck, right?

[00:44:56] And you know what it's like.

[00:44:57] We're all like we're all creatures of habits and our neural pathways fire in a certain way.

[00:45:01] And that's how we're that's easy.

[00:45:03] It's what we're used to.

[00:45:04] It's instinctive.

[00:45:04] So to get out of that, it takes those bigger questions or change of scenery to kind of really

[00:45:10] think more laterally and more creatively, which is I think ultimately what we want from

[00:45:14] our staff because they may actually have better solutions than you or I could ever even hypothesize,

[00:45:18] right?

[00:45:19] That's right.

[00:45:19] That's right.

[00:45:20] And that always hurts me to think that they had the idea all along, but nobody was listening

[00:45:25] or nobody was open to listening.

[00:45:27] I am the worst because I'm looking, I hate it when Katie's not here because I'm really bad

[00:45:31] about keeping time.

[00:45:32] And I'm like, oh no, I have four questions and we're getting really quick.

[00:45:37] I want you to be able to talk about the app.

[00:45:40] And then I want to know, I want to know something that you think everyone should get.

[00:45:45] So I'll put that out there.

[00:45:46] But first, will you tell me more about the app and our listeners?

[00:45:49] Because I've heard you mentioned it a couple of times, but it wasn't, I don't know.

[00:45:52] Yeah.

[00:45:52] You know, so the app is, you know, it's a free, it's part of our impact work.

[00:45:56] So the Pep Talker app is free.

[00:45:58] It's basically like, um, like a Fitbit, except instead of tracking your steps and how many

[00:46:04] kilometers you ran or how many miles you ran this week, it tracks your work milestones.

[00:46:08] So it's going to be like, Jackie, how many podcasts did you record this week?

[00:46:11] How many one-on-ones did you, did you have this month?

[00:46:14] You know, how many positive pieces of feedback did you receive from your management team?

[00:46:18] Um, this, this quarter or whatever it is.

[00:46:20] So it allows you to kind of input consistently throughout the year and it will prompt you

[00:46:25] to underline your wins and to take a moment to just enter them into the app, right?

[00:46:30] Super simple.

[00:46:30] So you'll get like motivational quotes and I'll just be like, what are you really proud

[00:46:33] of this week?

[00:46:34] And maybe it's that I didn't yell when so-and-so stuffed up that project.

[00:46:38] It can be a small, or it can be, you know, I signed a $2 billion deal, whatever it is.

[00:46:43] It doesn't matter.

[00:46:43] You can record it and it's private to your eyes only.

[00:46:46] And then you can export that.

[00:46:47] Um, there's all, you know, as a Google doc, as a PDF, whatever, so that you can kind of

[00:46:51] print it off and take it into those performance review conversations.

[00:46:54] You can use it to update your LinkedIn or to like your resume or to, you know, when you

[00:46:58] have to do those self reviews, you kind of then have the data.

[00:47:01] Cause you know, it's, it's normally like, what did I do in the last?

[00:47:03] Right.

[00:47:04] Right.

[00:47:05] Right.

[00:47:05] Cause I didn't know what I had for dinner last Tuesday, let alone my biggest milestone

[00:47:10] in February.

[00:47:11] I like life moves quickly, right?

[00:47:14] It comes at you.

[00:47:14] So the idea is that if you're tracking every week, okay, maybe that's ambitious, but at

[00:47:19] least if you, if you ignore some of our alerts, but maybe you do it once a month, at least

[00:47:22] you then have 12 data points at the end of a year that speaks to how awesome you are.

[00:47:27] And it's also, so it's, it's like a practical app, but then there's also, um, we worked with

[00:47:31] a psychologist, um, as we were developing it, cause it's also, we're trying to shift people's

[00:47:35] perception of themselves because our brains are hardwired for negativity.

[00:47:38] So when we get negative feedback or a negative email, or when we get reprimanded for stuffing

[00:47:44] up a project, we spiral, right?

[00:47:46] And we spend three or four days in a funk and it's whatever.

[00:47:49] But I bet Jackie, if you get a positive Slack message or a positive email, it's kind of nice

[00:47:53] for 10, 15 minutes.

[00:47:54] And then probably you forget about it.

[00:47:56] Right.

[00:47:57] So we're trying to like make a place where you can recall those things, screenshot them

[00:48:01] and put them in one place.

[00:48:01] So when you're having a really bad day, you can be like, let me just, let me just see.

[00:48:05] What did I do this year?

[00:48:06] Oh, actually, maybe I'm not as rubbish at my job as I think I am.

[00:48:09] This is just a bad day or a bad moment.

[00:48:11] And actually I've done all these amazing things.

[00:48:13] So that's kind of the premise behind it.

[00:48:14] And as I said, it's free.

[00:48:15] It's, it's a big part of the impact work that we just want to put out there to help support

[00:48:19] folks at work.

[00:48:20] I love that.

[00:48:20] Well, what is one thing you want our listeners to take away from Maggie Palmer and Pep Talk?

[00:48:28] Like what, what one thing you want our listeners to take away?

[00:48:31] Well, I'd say, you know, the thing that excites me and the thing that I would love to impart

[00:48:34] to everyone is that you have agency, right?

[00:48:37] Like in your job as a, as a people leader, in your job as an individual contributor, in

[00:48:41] your, in your job seeking process right now, all of you have agency, right?

[00:48:45] I know that things can feel really tough.

[00:48:47] I know that things are really tough.

[00:48:49] And also there's steps that you can take today that can change your trajectory.

[00:48:53] Right?

[00:48:53] So I would just say like, don't, don't feel like you're alone.

[00:48:56] Feel free to reach out to folks.

[00:48:57] Like obviously find Jackie and I were both on LinkedIn, like reach out to folks, like,

[00:49:02] you know, get support from people around you.

[00:49:04] If you're having a tough time at work or if you're spiraling, or if you're not understanding

[00:49:08] how you can get up to those competencies that are required, ask for help, text someone on

[00:49:12] your team and be like, Hey, my manager said I had to do this.

[00:49:15] If I want to pay rise next year, could we get coffee and talk?

[00:49:18] Talk about it or text a school friend and be like, I've had the worst week of my life

[00:49:22] at work.

[00:49:23] Can you just send me a warm and fuzzy?

[00:49:25] I just need something positive to hold onto.

[00:49:27] Like, I really think we should lean on our communities more because sometimes we operate

[00:49:30] in silos and COVID didn't help.

[00:49:32] But there's this exercise, Jackie, that we do.

[00:49:34] And I'll let me give it away to folks today.

[00:49:35] If you're having a bad day, I always say to people, just, just text a friend.

[00:49:39] It's like a phone a friend exercise and just say, I've just listened to this podcast

[00:49:42] with this amazing person, Jackie.

[00:49:44] And she had this guest called Maggie and Maggie told me to text a friend.

[00:49:48] And the one thing you're going to text a friend is, what would you say is my best quality?

[00:49:54] That's it.

[00:49:54] That's the text.

[00:49:56] So I just want everyone listening to send that text.

[00:49:57] What would you say is my best quality?

[00:50:00] And let's see what you get back.

[00:50:01] Because it's kind of remarkable when we outsource to others and ask them how they see

[00:50:05] us.

[00:50:05] It's kind of amazing how they actually perceive us in ways that perhaps we've never even knew

[00:50:10] about ourselves.

[00:50:11] And that can be a really lovely way to buoy you when you're having a tough time at work

[00:50:14] or to lift your spirits if things are maybe not 10 out of 10 for you right now.

[00:50:18] And I would just encourage you to send that text as often as you need to throughout the

[00:50:21] year, right?

[00:50:21] Get your team to send that text, right?

[00:50:24] Send some positive, proactive texts to people on your team.

[00:50:28] Give them feedback that's positive and unsolicited.

[00:50:30] Because I guarantee you'll make their day, if not their week.

[00:50:33] And as I said, we all have the agency to change how we're showing up and our trajectory and

[00:50:38] also to positively impact others as well.

[00:50:41] I love that.

[00:50:43] Katie, well, I laugh.

[00:50:44] One time I said, I would love your feedback.

[00:50:47] Only positive.

[00:50:48] I'm only accepting positive feedback.

[00:50:50] And it was like, she took a minute.

[00:50:51] It was like, she was like, I think it's great.

[00:50:54] I was like, thank you.

[00:50:55] I was like, she was like, why are you always accepting positive feedback?

[00:51:00] I was like, I've already turned it in.

[00:51:01] There's nothing I can do about it.

[00:51:02] It has, it's as perfect as it's going to be.

[00:51:05] I love it.

[00:51:05] But I felt really like uncomfortable.

[00:51:08] Like I need some positive feedback.

[00:51:09] So it's kind of on that.

[00:51:11] And we do feel uncomfortable though, right?

[00:51:13] Because we don't do it enough.

[00:51:14] But it's like a muscle.

[00:51:15] If we do this at the gym once or twice, nothing's going to happen.

[00:51:17] But if I do this every day for three years, all of a sudden, I'm the female Arnold Schwarzenegger

[00:51:21] with massive.

[00:51:22] That's right.

[00:51:22] And so we wanted to kind of create that strong muscle memory in our brain of like, I'm texting

[00:51:28] my best mates from college.

[00:51:29] I'm texting my best mate from primary school.

[00:51:31] I'm asking for positive feedback only today.

[00:51:33] Right?

[00:51:33] Like they don't care.

[00:51:35] They love you anyway.

[00:51:36] You can text your sister, right?

[00:51:38] Your roommate, whoever it is, your partner.

[00:51:40] You can ask your dog.

[00:51:41] I'm not sure if they'll respond in the way you want them to.

[00:51:43] But like, let's just get comfortable asking because actually that changes things in the brain,

[00:51:49] which I think is so exciting.

[00:51:50] I love that.

[00:51:51] And I think when I think about what I want our listeners to take away is that if you see

[00:51:54] a problem and you see, you can change it.

[00:51:57] Like empower yourself to make a change.

[00:51:59] You don't have to wait.

[00:51:59] I love this.

[00:52:00] Like we didn't talk a lot about it, but just going from, oh my gosh, I'm not, I'm getting

[00:52:04] underpaid.

[00:52:05] Absolutely not.

[00:52:06] Like, I'm not going to let anybody else do this.

[00:52:07] And now you formulated this business so that other people don't have that experience is

[00:52:12] wonderful.

[00:52:13] Well, and we all have that capacity.

[00:52:14] Like you do that every day at work.

[00:52:15] You see things at work that don't work and you fix it.

[00:52:18] Right?

[00:52:18] And I know that your listeners are doing the same thing.

[00:52:20] Right?

[00:52:20] But, but sometimes because maybe because you're really good at it, you don't always notice

[00:52:24] as well.

[00:52:24] Cause when you're in your zone of genius or your zone of excellence, you think it's quote

[00:52:27] unquote easy because it feels easy because it's good and it's natural for you, but that

[00:52:31] doesn't mean that it doesn't have value to the business.

[00:52:34] So that's the other thing.

[00:52:34] I think sometimes when we're trying to like figure out how we adding value, like what

[00:52:37] is our impact?

[00:52:38] It's helpful to crowdsource that from people around us because they might be like, oh my gosh,

[00:52:42] you bring all of the good vibes to the weekly meetings, which is hard to quantify, but that's

[00:52:47] valuable for a leader.

[00:52:48] Leaders want those good vibes, people in the team.

[00:52:50] Right?

[00:52:50] So crowdsourcing and asking other people to reflect back to you, your best qualities is

[00:52:54] super powerful.

[00:52:55] And yeah, to your point, Jackie, like if you see a problem that you think really, really

[00:52:58] sucks, like find a way to fix it.

[00:53:00] It's, it's a fun journey.

[00:53:02] I love that.

[00:53:03] Maggie, thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:53:05] And thanks to all of you listeners here on the Inclusive AM podcast.

[00:53:09] Katie will be back next week and we'll talk to you soon.

[00:53:13] So thank you.

[00:53:14] Thanks y'all.

[00:53:17] It's like, I'm trying to click the button.

[00:53:19] Thanks Jackie.

[00:53:20] You're the best.

[00:53:21] You're such a pro.

[00:53:22] Look at you go.

[00:53:22] I love it.

[00:53:23] I'm like the worst.

[00:53:24] I'm like, oh, where's the button?

[00:53:26] You're not the worst.

[00:53:26] I think I'm good.

[00:53:27] You're great.

[00:53:28] Ah, great.

[00:53:29] I love talking to you.

[00:53:31] You're in Brooklyn.

[00:53:31] You said.

[00:53:32] Yeah.

[00:53:32] Cause what about to you?

[00:53:34] So I'm actually in Texas.

[00:53:36] Okay.

[00:53:36] Okay.

[00:53:36] Okay.

[00:53:36] Okay.

[00:53:37] Oh, awesome.

[00:53:37] Cause Textio is in, is Textio in Texas?

[00:53:40] No, we are in Seattle.

[00:53:43] Most is in Seattle.

[00:53:44] And then I am here, but there are some people in nine different states that we have.

[00:53:51] Wow.

[00:53:51] Awesome.

[00:53:52] And so that's been, I was just in Seattle and I think I'm still in a couple of weeks,

[00:53:57] but I'm lucky in that I am in Waco, even though I make fun of it all the time.

[00:54:01] Cause I'm like, I'm in this God forsaken town.

[00:54:03] Um, but I, I do love it.

[00:54:06] I always just tease it.

[00:54:08] Cause it's like, it's small.

[00:54:09] It's in the middle of nowhere.

[00:54:10] People are always like, how are you doing it?

[00:54:13] And I'm like, I don't know.

[00:54:15] Um, you know, we don't have a mall or any of like, like we don't have a Trader Joe's or,

[00:54:21] you know, any of those types of things, but I love being in the middle of, of nowhere.

[00:54:25] And it suits me.

[00:54:26] I'm blessed to be able to be here.

[00:54:30] But we, we,

[00:54:32] I, my kid is in Bay Ridge.

[00:54:33] So I go up to New York quite a bit.

[00:54:36] Well, let's do coffee or cocktails or whatever.

[00:54:39] I would love that.

[00:54:40] Next time you're in town.

[00:54:40] Bay Ridge is the best.

[00:54:41] We used to live just, we're in Carroll Gardens.

[00:54:43] We used to live just around the corner.

[00:54:45] Oh, cool.

[00:54:45] Yeah.

[00:54:46] So it's like that.

[00:54:47] And so it's always nice.

[00:54:48] I love it because you can always meet people in New York.

[00:54:50] There's always like, you know, when we have a minute.

[00:54:52] So the next time I get there, I'll give you a call.

[00:54:54] I would love that.

[00:54:56] This should be, I think we're two or three weeks out.

[00:54:58] Well, we literally lost an episode.

[00:55:01] Oh, for the podcast.

[00:55:02] Oh, no worries.

[00:55:02] Just let me know.

[00:55:03] And what, what can I do to help support you?

[00:55:05] Like, how can I be of service to you?

[00:55:07] No, that's all.

[00:55:08] It's like, so just when we have it, just promoting the inclusive AF.

[00:55:11] We've been, we've got, I don't even know how many years we've been doing it now.

[00:55:14] We've got episodes.

[00:55:15] Do you love it?

[00:55:16] I do love it.

[00:55:17] That's awesome.

[00:55:18] I do love it.

[00:55:18] So we'll be switching it and doing more of a, I was like, we're going to have to enhance.

[00:55:24] We're doing more of the blogs and more of the shorts and putting it all together.

[00:55:27] So it's going to take a lot of work, but promoting those is really helpful.

[00:55:30] That's so fun.

[00:55:31] And then this is a random question.

[00:55:33] Are you involved with makers at all?

[00:55:35] Do you know the makers summit?

[00:55:36] I have heard of the makers summit, but I'm not involved in the makers.

[00:55:40] I feel like you would love it.

[00:55:41] Do you want me to connect you with them?

[00:55:44] I'm an advisory board and I was so random how I got involved, but it's like really great.

[00:55:50] And I just feel like you would love the community of folks there.

[00:55:53] It's really, it's really cool.

[00:55:56] I would love to.

[00:55:56] You'd probably know a lot of them, to be honest.

[00:55:59] Oh yeah.

[00:56:00] Yeah.

[00:56:00] A lot of the, a lot of the folks have similar roles to you in similar kind of tech companies

[00:56:04] and stuff like that.

[00:56:05] So I'm sure.

[00:56:06] I've heard of it, but I've never been involved.

[00:56:08] So I'd love to.

[00:56:15] And, um, let me, let me reach out to her today.

[00:56:18] Cause that could be kind of something fun and interesting for you.

[00:56:20] And also for the podcast, you know, amplification, um, for sure.

[00:56:24] Count us in and then anything else.

[00:56:26] Yeah.

[00:56:26] Just let me know.

[00:56:27] And are you loving text here?

[00:56:28] Is it a fun role?

[00:56:28] I do.

[00:56:29] I've been here almost three years and I have, I love the HR tech place, but also like you

[00:56:38] were talking about, like, I didn't realize that people didn't know how to recognize like

[00:56:43] fairness or being inclusive or understanding that balance.

[00:56:48] I didn't realize it.

[00:56:49] So I found kind of a niche market.

[00:56:51] So I really love being able to do that and share lessons that make the world of work

[00:56:55] easier.

[00:56:55] Cause it's hard enough.

[00:56:57] Cause how many folks have you guys got now?

[00:56:59] Have you all got a text?

[00:57:00] We've got 60.

[00:57:02] Okay.

[00:57:02] Okay.

[00:57:02] Okay.

[00:57:03] So we're punch above your weight, but you're like really good brand recognition.

[00:57:06] Yeah.

[00:57:06] We do punch up.

[00:57:07] Yeah.

[00:57:07] It's funny.

[00:57:08] Punch above your weight.

[00:57:08] We do.

[00:57:09] What do you think?

[00:57:09] We're fully like we're sitting where we were, um, we were in New York in like the, like Louis

[00:57:16] Vuitton office and we were just sitting there and I was just like, it's wild that we're

[00:57:20] here.

[00:57:20] We were in Warner brothers and Louis Vuitton that week and the Kevin Kline brands and we're

[00:57:24] doing all this stuff.

[00:57:25] And I was like, and we're just this little, you know, we're this little.

[00:57:29] You still probably held?

[00:57:31] Yes.

[00:57:32] Okay.

[00:57:33] Well, we're BC fat.

[00:57:35] Okay.

[00:57:36] Okay.

[00:57:36] Okay.

[00:57:36] Okay.

[00:57:36] Okay.

[00:57:36] So, um, uh,

[00:57:38] Yeah.

[00:57:39] So we are, but we're still BC back, but we do.

[00:57:42] I mean, our, all of our, our clients are like major enterprise.

[00:57:45] We have some that are like of the scale size, but the majority is of that large size company.

[00:57:52] And I'm just trying to think if I should be, who's your decision maker normally?

[00:57:57] Well, I mean, they end up being, it was changing.

[00:58:02] So now it's like the head of talent, usually CHROs or heads of talent acquisition, because

[00:58:07] we just started doing the, we had the talent acquisition or the recruiting product.

[00:58:13] And now we have like, we're working on that.

[00:58:15] And we're working on that being a standalone product.

[00:58:19] So we have the performance feedback and then we've been adding for the job descriptions.

[00:58:24] And then we have, we built our own AI behind it like years ago.

[00:58:29] And so we have like that one that's already, that we actually work on to start reducing

[00:58:34] bias, which is really nice.

[00:58:35] Like you can have that communication.

[00:58:38] Um, like, cause that's the problem.

[00:58:41] Um, I keep, I, we're working on more ways.

[00:58:44] I always say it's like hire to retire conversation.

[00:58:47] I personally need text Dio for, I need text Dio for Slack because that's where I send the

[00:58:54] worst messages.

[00:58:55] If I'm going to get fired, it's because I sent a Slack message that was.

[00:58:58] And does it integrate into Slack?

[00:59:00] No.

[00:59:01] Okay.

[00:59:01] Interesting.

[00:59:02] Not right now.

[00:59:03] Interesting.

[00:59:03] Interesting.

[00:59:04] I mean, you need to tell their product team.

[00:59:06] That sounds like an amazing.

[00:59:07] I know.

[00:59:08] I'm telling them.

[00:59:08] They're working on it.

[00:59:09] They're working on it.

[00:59:10] They're working on these things, but now we're so small.

[00:59:13] Okay.

[00:59:14] Interesting.

[00:59:14] Okay.

[00:59:15] Okay.

[00:59:15] Okay.

[00:59:15] Okay.

[00:59:15] Okay.

[00:59:15] This is interesting.

[00:59:16] And then are there any, um, are there any other companies that you work with?

[00:59:20] Do you ever, um, you don't offer any services, right?

[00:59:23] It's all tech.

[00:59:24] Yeah.

[00:59:25] Interesting.

[00:59:26] Interesting.

[00:59:27] Interesting.

[00:59:27] Cause it's so affordable.

[00:59:28] I feel like your product's really affordable.

[00:59:30] I mean, like if we offer, well, some people think so.

[00:59:33] I always say we're very proud of our product.

[00:59:35] Um, but if we, if we, you know, I forgot what I was going to say.

[00:59:43] Um, well, are there any, are there any of your CHRO?

[00:59:46] I mean, maybe it's maybe not your team, but are there any of your CHROs that you reckon,

[00:59:49] um, we should talk to from a services side?

[00:59:52] Cause I'm just wondering if there's places where we could even like sell in text here to

[00:59:56] some of our clients.

[00:59:57] Cause we work with like, cause like even like, I mean, it wouldn't probably be enterprise.

[01:00:01] It'd be probably team specific, but like at UBS bank, I'm thinking there's someone.

[01:00:05] And even at like, you probably already work with Salesforce.

[01:00:07] I would imagine, but we have worked with Salesforce, but see, the thing is, it's like trying to

[01:00:11] figure out what is interesting.

[01:00:15] Now it's like, we're working on like interview feedback.

[01:00:19] I think what's, what's been interesting is.

[01:00:24] I think the difference when talking to other people is that we have built the model.

[01:00:28] So we've been looking at it's very specific language.

[01:00:31] We're so used to being able to Google, like people forget that that was built for search.

[01:00:38] Like, even though it can do like give you recipes and it can find different sales.

[01:00:43] It was not made to find discounts.

[01:00:45] That's why you have various apps.

[01:00:47] Like this is an app that help you find discounts or coupons or whatever.

[01:00:51] So what happens with us is like, oh, I can use this product to build a job description.

[01:00:56] And we have to say, well, our model is specific for job descriptions.

[01:01:00] The model was built so that you could write a good job description, not so you could write

[01:01:05] a letter or your resume.

[01:01:07] It's made for that purpose.

[01:01:09] And we checked the bias and we, you know, built it internally, which is a huge difference.

[01:01:14] I think that we'll see more now, but there's, it's, it's hard to differentiate when so many

[01:01:20] people say that they do the same thing and they don't really, you know, I like, I found

[01:01:26] if you look at like chat GBT and you said, make this less bias.

[01:01:30] What they end up doing a lot is making it more formal, the language, which is actually

[01:01:35] more biased, just a different group.

[01:01:37] It's just, you're just being more biased to a different subset.

[01:01:41] Right.

[01:01:41] Like people who are neurodiverse won't get these complex sentences.

[01:01:46] Not that they don't understand.

[01:01:47] It's just that it's more difficult to understand so that your point may not be coming across

[01:01:50] the way that you want to, or people were English as a second language may not be getting the

[01:01:55] point.

[01:01:55] Cause you're not using simple language that was built to give somebody a response to

[01:01:59] how they're doing at work.

[01:02:01] And so that I think is a, a new challenge, but we're trying to make people spend so much

[01:02:07] time trying to get their language right.

[01:02:11] To get the conversation and their impact.

[01:02:14] Right.

[01:02:14] That's why I think your price point makes it like a no brainer for folks.

[01:02:17] Right.

[01:02:18] Anyway, that's what I remember.

[01:02:19] Thanks.

[01:02:20] I'm going to put Maggie on the front page.

[01:02:22] Maggie said.

[01:02:23] I said, I think it's very affordable for the value that they're getting.

[01:02:29] Well, yeah, let's, let's keep in touch.

[01:02:30] And then if there are any folks that you think that we should chat to, we really help out.

[01:02:34] We don't, we don't, I mean, the app is, is free anyway, but we really are adding value

[01:02:38] with the L and D training programs and the exec coaches.

[01:02:41] I like that.

[01:02:42] I was going to say, I don't know.

[01:02:44] It makes sense.

[01:02:45] It should be have like, should figure out.

[01:02:47] Well, I was talking before.

[01:02:49] It's almost like we have a, we should build a network of people that are trying to be more

[01:02:53] inclusive and trying to figure out those things where it's like, these are some of the tools

[01:02:57] that we feel comfortable with.

[01:02:58] We should have another conversation on that.

[01:03:00] So we could just have like a, because you know, I end up consulting and I'm not a consultant,

[01:03:04] but it's like, here are some things that you can try it.

[01:03:07] Cause you know, those are things, it's a different, it's a totally different lane.

[01:03:11] Yeah.

[01:03:12] Yeah.

[01:03:12] Yeah.

[01:03:13] Yeah.

[01:03:13] Yeah.

[01:03:14] Well, yeah, let's do that.

[01:03:15] Let's we'll, we'll chat again.

[01:03:16] I'll connect you with Janay.

[01:03:19] I'll email her now and yeah, I'll look forward to the podcast coming up, but let me know

[01:03:23] if there's anything I can ever do as well.

[01:03:25] Thanks Maggie.

[01:03:25] I appreciate it.

[01:03:26] Thank you so much.

[01:03:27] Keep you soon.

[01:03:27] Bye bye.

[01:03:28] Bye bye.

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