Getting Inclusive AF with Katee & Jackye

[00:00:00] You're listening to Inclusive AF with Jackie Clayton and Katie Van Horn.

[00:00:10] Now you can say what you're just going to say.

[00:00:13] Hello, hello, hello! And welcome to the Inclusive AF Podcast. This is Jackie Clayton.

[00:00:19] And this is Katie Van Horn. And I just yelled at Jackie to stop talking because I had to press the button to record. But Jackie, do it.

[00:00:28] I'm mad as hell and I get it.

[00:00:30] And I'm not going to take it!

[00:00:33] And today I want to talk about Robbie Starbuck.

[00:00:37] So he was in the Wall Street Journal last week. The article is The Activist Pushing Companies to Ditch DEI.

[00:00:44] And it's really like when we were talking a couple weeks ago about tractor supply or whatever,

[00:00:54] and the other one now with Harley Davidson. He's the guy who went from filmmaker to anti-DEI activist.

[00:01:06] And people are literally listening to him.

[00:01:09] Uh huh.

[00:01:10] Yeah.

[00:01:11] Because...

[00:01:13] He just released a film on X called The War on Children. And it's that they're trying to make children woke.

[00:01:23] I can...

[00:01:24] Which children?

[00:01:25] All the children.

[00:01:28] And what does that mean?

[00:01:30] I don't know, Jackie. I don't... I don't... like educated. I still think that the using the word woke is very, very funny.

[00:01:39] I think it's the funniest thing someone could say is, you're woke. And all that means is, you know something about...

[00:01:48] The alternative is you're asleep.

[00:01:51] You're not paying attention.

[00:01:53] I know something. Well, don't know anything.

[00:01:55] Don't know anything.

[00:01:57] Um, I just... I don't know. I don't know what to say.

[00:02:03] Um, I don't know what to say.

[00:02:09] Okay. But I don't really... All right. So this guy, he...

[00:02:12] I... So I think I was... I saw something last week, maybe it was week before, I don't know, about everyone banning or, you know, boycotting Harley Davidson.

[00:02:22] And I was like, I don't know what that is all about. Like, who's mad now?

[00:02:25] Um, and I guess it's because of this guy. Because this guy, like, posted that Harley Davidson... Harley Davidson is actually thinking about DEI.

[00:02:39] And I guess now that is wrong. You're not allowed to... to do anything.

[00:02:45] But this guy is the antithesis of the problem. Like, he is the problem.

[00:02:50] Right. Like, all of a sudden he thinks he knows everything and wants to talk about it. Like, that's a problem.

[00:02:58] It just is fascinating to me the way that people like to twist this whole concept to say, like, hey, DEI is bad, but not really understanding what it means.

[00:03:14] And, you know, and I'm thinking back to the... the interview that Trump did at the National Association of Black Journalists, where the question was, you know, what is DEI?

[00:03:28] Oh, well, you define... define what DEI means. What does it mean? I don't even know what it means.

[00:03:34] And...

[00:03:34] Right.

[00:03:35] And it's like, yep, you don't. And so that's why you should stop acting like you do and saying bad things about it when you honestly don't know what you're talking about.

[00:03:42] But there's another part to this that I think is so completely hilarious in that...

[00:03:51] And I guess I use that term lightly.

[00:03:54] And...

[00:04:03] And then a conspiracy theorist, who now calls himself a conservative activist.

[00:04:11] And people are listening to this person.

[00:04:15] And he said that he was inspired because his father was a Cuban immigrant.

[00:04:22] And so seeing that influenced him. And I'm like...

[00:04:29] How...

[00:04:29] First of all, like...

[00:04:31] How is... I don't understand how that's possible.

[00:04:35] Like, I don't understand the direct correlation. He's like...

[00:04:39] He's younger than us.

[00:04:41] I don't...

[00:04:43] So how does that have a direct influence? Like...

[00:04:46] When was that?

[00:04:48] Like...

[00:04:49] And how did that influence?

[00:04:50] You don't hear anything else.

[00:04:53] But...

[00:04:54] It doesn't...

[00:04:54] The things already contradict.

[00:04:57] What he says he's doing already contradicts.

[00:05:00] It doesn't.

[00:05:01] So like...

[00:05:02] Your father came to this country.

[00:05:05] They gave open arms because they were coming from Cuba, knowing that it was, you know, pressed.

[00:05:10] So he welcomed you into this country.

[00:05:12] And so now you don't want anybody to be aware of the plight or issues that affect other people.

[00:05:19] Doesn't make sense.

[00:05:21] Right.

[00:05:22] Like he said, I saw a socialist country.

[00:05:26] You left and escaped and came here.

[00:05:29] And now have decided to be conservative after you've seen the atrocities in Cuba, which you couldn't have seen because you were not born.

[00:05:42] I am so confused.

[00:05:45] He said, you know, he exposed John Deere.

[00:05:49] And his whole background is saying that...

[00:05:53] People are using them...

[00:05:56] Where he does have a good point is...

[00:05:58] He's saying you need to know where the companies are spending the money that you're giving to them.

[00:06:02] And you do.

[00:06:03] Absolutely.

[00:06:04] Agree.

[00:06:05] But at the same time, the fact that people are like, I'm not going to rent my tractor from this company because they support all of these people.

[00:06:15] So I want to support somebody who doesn't support anybody.

[00:06:17] Does it make sense?

[00:06:18] Like this whole argument that we talk about, like facts don't work to try to, you know, expose people to like what the truth of the matter is because it's doesn't make sense.

[00:06:32] So I, I, he has a post and it's from 2020.

[00:06:36] So it's an old one, but it's a bunch.

[00:06:39] It's some person, a county clerk that's saying that there was a glitch in the tabulation of votes.

[00:06:45] And so actually, Trump should have won Michigan.

[00:06:48] And all the people in the background with these, you know, Americans for Trump all have masks on.

[00:06:57] But they don't like masks.

[00:06:59] So it's just, it's a very confusing little video.

[00:07:02] I don't know.

[00:07:02] I don't understand what the deal is.

[00:07:04] Are they, are we supposed to wear masks?

[00:07:05] Are we, are we just supposed to wear a mask when we're on the news and we are getting, or we're calling someone a liar.

[00:07:14] You got to wear a mask so that people don't know who you are.

[00:07:18] I just feel like, I find it funny that I just don't, I mean, I just don't think you can have it both ways.

[00:07:31] Where it's like, oh, you know, there's all these movies that are affecting the culture and taking over my family.

[00:07:40] So I'm going to make a movie so that people wake up and be woke to my cause.

[00:07:50] But I, cause I don't want them to, the things that people are saying and what makes it even okay is like, is the ignorance that people follow.

[00:08:00] Like, this is like, it's one of those things that like, you're trying to lead, but really all you're doing is following, not taking a stance.

[00:08:08] Like that would be the mature thing to do and be like, yeah, you can be exposed to all of this information and then make choices based on real information, not based on some wackadoo in Nashville who stopped making music videos.

[00:08:26] I'm sorry, I have to correct you Jackie.

[00:08:32] He isn't just a video maker.

[00:08:35] He is also, he's a producer and director of music videos, but also he ran for the United States House of Representatives in 2022 as a write in candidate and he was defeated.

[00:08:49] So I'm just letting you know that he's also mad cause he lost.

[00:08:53] So again, he also said that he would pay for a man Khalif and lend you ting in the Olympics to prove that he'll pay them $5,000 each to prove that there were born biological women.

[00:09:16] Because I knew literally went from that to like Robbie starbuck.com.

[00:09:20] Like, this goes back to you like, why are we getting advice from people who don't know what they're talking about?

[00:09:28] Right.

[00:09:32] Like why, you know, like, and it's one thing to say, like, I think what's, what's interesting is that the ignorance and fear comes from, you know, not being exposed to information and being so small.

[00:09:48] And so the response is, I don't want to know anything.

[00:09:52] Right.

[00:09:53] But that's what does it make sense.

[00:09:55] If you put your head in the sand.

[00:09:58] And quit looking at everything that's going on around you, then you can just stick with your wrong beliefs.

[00:10:03] And like, I guess there's also a piece of me that how often do you learn more information and change your perspective on something?

[00:10:16] Me?

[00:10:16] I do.

[00:10:17] I actually do a lot.

[00:10:18] I mean, I, I all the time, like even about like sugar.

[00:10:26] Right.

[00:10:27] Exactly.

[00:10:28] Exactly.

[00:10:28] We used to be, remember when we used to be like, oh, fat free is, is what you're supposed to do.

[00:10:35] And then we found out that makes you really, really fat.

[00:10:37] And then it was like, no, you should actually just eat fat.

[00:10:39] And then that made people sick.

[00:10:41] And then it's like, you know, you know, weight loss has been, it's something that we both struggled with in the past.

[00:10:47] And there's all these things.

[00:10:49] And then it's like, honestly, who are these people?

[00:10:53] Like, there's all of these things that go around that you believe and you try it.

[00:10:56] And it's like, it doesn't work for you.

[00:10:58] It doesn't work for you.

[00:10:58] And the thing is that we're trying to do is give people an opportunity to make something work for them.

[00:11:04] Right.

[00:11:04] And exposing you to all these different, different concerns.

[00:11:07] Like I always say, I have very strong opinions loosely held.

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[00:11:18] I'm Chad.

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[00:11:20] We're the Chad and Cheese podcast.

[00:11:22] All the latest recruiting news and insights are on our show.

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[00:11:32] We out.

[00:11:33] Right.

[00:11:34] Right.

[00:11:35] And I think that's like, I think especially being a white woman doing diversity work for quite some time.

[00:11:43] It was daily that I was learning something new or changing my perspective on something because it was a, oh, I didn't know that.

[00:11:51] Or I wasn't aware of that factor.

[00:11:53] I didn't, I've never heard that before, whatever it might be.

[00:11:58] And, and I think that's part of this too, is like scientists say, you know, that's one of the things they've been saying.

[00:12:07] Oh, scientists have been wrong so many times.

[00:12:09] And I'm like, right.

[00:12:10] It's not that they've been wrong so many times.

[00:12:11] Is it when they learn more and when they do an investigation, when they start to, you know, use the scientific process to say, is this right?

[00:12:20] Did I, did I, did I think of this right?

[00:12:22] If they get more or different information that's better or that changes the perspective or changes their opinion, they change their opinion on things.

[00:12:31] So I, I guess it's like, I would rather have someone that's willing to change their mind when they have additional information versus I don't even want to hear it.

[00:12:41] And I don't have any interest in learning more.

[00:12:47] Like I, and I think that's one of the reasons why, and I think you're like this as well.

[00:12:51] I actually like having people in my Facebook, in my different socials that have different opinions than I do.

[00:12:58] And like some, sometimes it does catch me off guard when I see something and it's like, you know, your stomach hurts, but it's also, I, I, I'm curious to understand what your thought process is there.

[00:13:08] I'm curious to understand why you are a supporter of whatever the thing is.

[00:13:13] So I think that's the other part for me.

[00:13:15] It's the, I'm trying to always learn and do better, but I also don't think I know every single thing.

[00:13:24] Oh, well, and that's, what's funny.

[00:13:25] Like, I remember somebody said, you're the expert to me.

[00:13:28] And I was like, I'm absolutely not the expert.

[00:13:30] And they were like, that's what makes you the expert.

[00:13:32] The fact that you know that there's more to learn.

[00:13:35] Right.

[00:13:35] It means that you've done the thing.

[00:13:37] And I always laugh.

[00:13:38] Cause I'm like, even after I fact check and get other people, I, I just give it an 87 because

[00:13:44] you just never know.

[00:13:46] It could have changed while you're hitting print.

[00:13:48] Yes.

[00:13:49] And if that's okay, that's okay.

[00:13:51] Like we all make mistakes.

[00:13:52] I'm willing to own it.

[00:13:53] I think that happens as you get older.

[00:13:55] You're just like, you know what?

[00:13:56] I don't have time for, you know, for everything to be perfect.

[00:13:59] I'm going to do the best that I can.

[00:14:01] But the, the, the thing that's so weird to me is that in order to grow and like, accept

[00:14:12] of other people, just all the things, any mistake that you make, like you first, like

[00:14:16] you have to recognize that a mistake was made.

[00:14:18] Right.

[00:14:20] I remember, um, my executive producer, uh, Todd one time, we, he always wants to bring

[00:14:27] home leftovers.

[00:14:28] And we went to brunch the week before, and I had like a cinnamon roll French toast and

[00:14:35] he had like eggs Benedict and we got it to go.

[00:14:37] And the person put extra hollandaise and extra, um, like cream cheese frosting.

[00:14:44] Oh.

[00:14:45] So anyway, I had already had the, my leftovers and he was like, picked up the container and

[00:14:53] he's like, I'm going to stick my finger in it and eat it.

[00:14:56] And I said, you shouldn't do that because that's cold hollandaise sauce.

[00:15:01] That's not cream cheese frosting.

[00:15:03] You know, the little ramekins.

[00:15:04] Yeah.

[00:15:05] He's like, no, it's not.

[00:15:06] I'm like, it is like, he was like, no, it not.

[00:15:08] And he literally stuck his finger in it, like scooped it out and put it in his mouth and

[00:15:13] tried for like three seconds to pretend it was really the frosting just because he didn't

[00:15:22] want to be wrong.

[00:15:23] Right.

[00:15:23] Right.

[00:15:24] You literally, first of all, like hollandaise, it's never the same.

[00:15:31] Like you don't need to take it to go.

[00:15:32] Like, it's just ruined.

[00:15:33] Like, just don't.

[00:15:33] Not.

[00:15:34] Yeah.

[00:15:34] But then if you do like, I feel like so many people really want to hold on to whatever

[00:15:38] belief system.

[00:15:39] Like they literally tried to convince himself that hollandaise was cream cheese frosting.

[00:15:44] And I feel like that's America.

[00:15:46] Right.

[00:15:47] You're trying to act like this is cream cheese frosting.

[00:15:49] It's literally cold hollandaise.

[00:15:51] And it doesn't matter what you try to make it into.

[00:15:54] Right.

[00:15:55] That's just, it just is what it is.

[00:15:57] Accept that and we can move on.

[00:15:59] It's, it's interesting because you know, in this political climate that we're in, I

[00:16:03] think that is the biggest piece that so many folks, myself included, struggle with is if

[00:16:11] someone tells you who they are, believe them.

[00:16:13] Right.

[00:16:14] And, and if I hear one more person say, oh, that's not what he meant.

[00:16:19] Oh, that's not what it, you know?

[00:16:20] Oh no.

[00:16:21] What he was saying was, no, he, he said these words, these were the words he used.

[00:16:26] And so if, if that's not what he meant, then he should not have said those words or he should

[00:16:30] have said, well, I misspoke.

[00:16:32] And let me tell you what I meant.

[00:16:34] Um, and I feel like there's so many folks right now that are saying things and then

[00:16:38] trying to like back up out of it and, or have their wives back up out of it.

[00:16:44] Uh, girl.

[00:16:46] Um, and it just is fascinating to me.

[00:16:49] Like, it's so fascinating to see that.

[00:16:51] Like, what words did you say?

[00:16:55] Yeah.

[00:16:55] It, it, it, it, it, it, have you noticed and you go back and listen to like the explanation.

[00:17:01] It really doesn't justify anything that was said.

[00:17:04] No, no.

[00:17:06] I mean, and literally, so like my day job is working for a company that like deals with

[00:17:11] language and we also, you know, I work, we both are like people professionals and people

[00:17:19] don't understand, like, it's fine.

[00:17:22] It's fine when it's just you and your friends hanging out, watching the game, but you don't

[00:17:29] realize that these words, like there's consequences.

[00:17:32] Like it, it's not just the way you make me feel like there's legal ramifications for the

[00:17:37] things that are coming out of your mouth.

[00:17:39] And so you better make sure you understand exactly what you're saying.

[00:17:42] And so like trying to be fair and equitable, there's no way that you can undo making that

[00:17:46] make sense.

[00:17:47] Right.

[00:17:48] But saying that you don't want to, or that it's wrong, or we don't, you're really saying

[00:17:52] that you don't care about people period.

[00:17:54] There is no other way of saying that.

[00:17:56] Right.

[00:17:58] And, but I guess that's the part that I'm also very always, I mean, I, it has been confusing

[00:18:05] for a very long time for me is how you can say I'm a Christian or I am a whatever.

[00:18:14] And yet the things, the actions you're taking, the people you're voting for, the things that

[00:18:21] you're supporting are the very opposite of that.

[00:18:23] I will say something that made me very happy.

[00:18:27] I was watching cause you know, I get on the tick tocks.

[00:18:31] I don't ever record any tick tocks myself.

[00:18:34] Cause I am a little camera shy.

[00:18:36] That's why I have a podcast.

[00:18:41] And, and there is a new, the evangelicals for Kamala.

[00:18:48] Yes.

[00:18:49] Is a new thing about that because they have a recording of.

[00:18:55] Trump basically being asked, have you ever asked God for forgiveness or Jesus for forgiveness?

[00:19:00] And his response was basically like, I don't bring him into that, or I don't bring him

[00:19:03] into that type of thing.

[00:19:07] And it was like, not, not ideal for the evangelicals who are like, no, no, he's all about Jesus.

[00:19:15] He's all about.

[00:19:18] Christianity all about these things.

[00:19:19] And you're like, no, he's really not.

[00:19:21] He does the exact opposite of those things.

[00:19:25] So I don't know.

[00:19:27] It is.

[00:19:27] I think that part is like the saddest part.

[00:19:29] Like I haven't gotten close enough to like put a label on it, but this literally going through this through 2020 has completely destroyed my faith.

[00:19:42] Like my dad was a reverend.

[00:19:44] I, it is completely destroyed my face, my faith and made me put it in the whole like colonizer category.

[00:19:51] And that it's all just really bullshit.

[00:19:53] And it doesn't make any sense of, of trying to hold back people of color or, or women or people who are like little people, people with, who are disabled.

[00:20:04] Like I was literally watching this show called, and I have ADHD.

[00:20:09] So if y'all are going like, where are you going?

[00:20:11] Just work with me.

[00:20:12] So if you know me at tracks, so the show's called worst roommate ever.

[00:20:19] And, but they're it's extreme.

[00:20:22] They're not bad roommates.

[00:20:23] I'm like bad roommates are like people that use your last shampoo, not you kill you.

[00:20:27] Yeah.

[00:20:27] It's not a bad roommate, but anyway, bad roommate.

[00:20:30] He's walking the dog.

[00:20:31] And then he comes back.

[00:20:32] He says, he's loses.

[00:20:33] He loses the dog.

[00:20:34] The lady comes back and she's like, I'm so sad about pepper.

[00:20:37] And he was like, oh yeah, I killed pepper.

[00:20:39] And she was like, why did you kill pepper?

[00:20:42] And she was like, she killed my chickens baby.

[00:20:45] And so the Bible says it's an eye for an eye.

[00:20:48] And I'm like, do you see what happened?

[00:20:50] Do you see what happened?

[00:20:52] Somebody justified behavior.

[00:20:54] And if that is not what anybody meant.

[00:20:57] Nobody meant for you to kill an actual animal or a person or stuff.

[00:21:02] Like that's not what, what, what you put things, pull things out that are convenient,

[00:21:07] or all of a sudden people are completely righteous and then gay people are going in the hell.

[00:21:13] But like, so are you because you literally slept with like your neighbor's wife.

[00:21:17] So stop.

[00:21:18] Right.

[00:21:19] Exactly.

[00:21:20] Exactly.

[00:21:20] And that's the other one that I'm like, so I'm going to also go on a little bit of a tangent.

[00:21:27] So I just recently finished the entire series, the big bang theory.

[00:21:32] It's really funny.

[00:21:34] Congratulations.

[00:21:35] It's so good.

[00:21:36] I highly recommend it, but now I'm watching young Sheldon and you know, he's at this point,

[00:21:42] like an eight or nine year old child.

[00:21:43] And his mom is upset because he starts playing Dungeons and Dragons and there's demons and

[00:21:49] there's this and that.

[00:21:50] And she's like, you cannot read any of these comic books.

[00:21:53] Cause there's bad, you know, bad things in there, blah, blah.

[00:21:56] And, and he's like, okay, well, if you're gonna take my comic books, you should probably take

[00:22:01] this book too.

[00:22:01] And he hands her the Bible and she's like, what do you mean?

[00:22:05] And he's like, there's demons in there.

[00:22:07] There's, you know, incest.

[00:22:09] There's all kinds, he doesn't say incest, but like all kinds of very bad things in here.

[00:22:13] And she's, you know, mortified of course, but it's like, I think that's what people forget

[00:22:18] is that the, the parables, the, you know, the different stories that are, they are stories

[00:22:23] to tell a lesson.

[00:22:25] They are not.

[00:22:26] That is exactly what they're doing.

[00:22:28] And I don't know.

[00:22:29] Did you see the book of Mormon?

[00:22:31] I did.

[00:22:32] Besides being just the funniest, best musical like ever written.

[00:22:37] Like it is so good.

[00:22:38] Yeah.

[00:22:39] But it was so telling when they were like, oh, y'all don't understand the story.

[00:22:43] Let me make up this story.

[00:22:44] And I think now you'll understand.

[00:22:47] And so he changed everything in the Bible.

[00:22:49] Right.

[00:22:50] Oh, we got the AIDS.

[00:22:53] Don't fuck the baby.

[00:22:55] Like, it was just so bad.

[00:22:57] It's so bad.

[00:22:58] It was like, what is happening?

[00:23:00] Yeah.

[00:23:00] And that was another, like, I never thought about that or just the way that people make

[00:23:06] things, like try to make them make sense.

[00:23:09] Right.

[00:23:09] And so it's all, all of these things, like, like, I was trying to hold on to power, but

[00:23:16] you're not able to admit that maybe I don't know everything that's going on and maybe we

[00:23:21] should.

[00:23:22] And, and to be fair, like, I think that's part of the reason why people do support current

[00:23:28] politics.

[00:23:29] I won't, I can't call these people like Republicans because I don't call MAGA Republicans Republicans.

[00:23:35] They're just like.

[00:23:38] They're just we use Tim Wall's phrase.

[00:23:41] They're just weird.

[00:23:42] Yes, just weird.

[00:23:43] But if you, if you look at this group of people, like, it makes sense to want to follow somebody

[00:23:51] who maybe didn't have a traditional background.

[00:23:53] And then you're asking people to stop doing that.

[00:23:56] That's the exact same thing.

[00:23:57] And that's why these things don't come together.

[00:24:00] You don't, you want somebody who doesn't have politics because the way that politics have

[00:24:04] worked hasn't worked for you.

[00:24:06] So you want to put somebody else in, but yet you don't want a drag queen to read to kids

[00:24:10] because now we're indoctrinating somebody into some belief system and turning them into something

[00:24:15] else.

[00:24:15] But that's literally what you're trying to do is go against the status quo and the rules

[00:24:20] that have been set up since 1800.

[00:24:22] And instead of looking at it so we can come to a solution that is helpful for all of us,

[00:24:28] you just want to follow this one person and you're an evangelical and a evangelical Christian

[00:24:35] that's not supposed to put any other gods before anybody else.

[00:24:38] And yet put this guy feel like he's literally the second coming.

[00:24:42] Yeah.

[00:24:44] And, and, and I think, you know, going back to Robbie Starbuck, whatever his name is, it's

[00:24:52] also the, you're making a movie now to support your uneducated, completely ignorant, completely

[00:25:05] misinformed.

[00:25:08] And you're going to make a story out of it with other people and make it into, oh, I'm

[00:25:12] making this story.

[00:25:13] I'm telling this that, you know, I have this movie that's going to tell you all the things

[00:25:17] that you need to know about what they're doing to our children.

[00:25:20] And it's like, but it's all a lie.

[00:25:25] Like if you look at, at numbers, if you look at the data, if you look at reality, drag queens

[00:25:32] aren't doing any type of grooming.

[00:25:34] They're not trying to do anything to children.

[00:25:36] And, and if there is a adult, uh, drag show, it is labeled as an adult drag show, pure and

[00:25:45] simple.

[00:25:46] And, you know, and as anything else should be, you know, if there's going to be something

[00:25:51] that's a little risque, you know, you wouldn't let, you wouldn't have kids go to a strip club,

[00:25:57] but you know, has that happened before that a young child has seen a stripper?

[00:26:00] You betcha.

[00:26:01] And, and we didn't have to write laws against it or cause a ruckus.

[00:26:06] It was just, don't do that anymore.

[00:26:07] Or, Hey, that's a bad idea.

[00:26:09] I just don't understand the, we're going to teach you all the things that these bad,

[00:26:15] bad people are doing to our kids.

[00:26:17] So I'm assuming the entire show is about, about white men and pedophiles, true pedophiles.

[00:26:25] Well, you know, maybe.

[00:26:27] No, it's probably not.

[00:26:28] It's going to be about drag queens reading books in a library or, you know, that someone

[00:26:35] from the LGBTQ community is, is trying to groom your child or the transgender person going

[00:26:41] to the bathroom is trying to do something bad or that, you know, it's all of it.

[00:26:45] All of the anti-woke, which again really means anti-knowledge.

[00:26:55] But that's what doesn't make any sense.

[00:26:58] Like, I know the fact is like these people exist.

[00:27:02] And so by not, by keeping your, like you're, I don't understand.

[00:27:10] And that's not just, like, oh no, because it's not like, I know that I'm a black woman

[00:27:17] and I'm, you know, over 50 and I don't have a uterus.

[00:27:21] So I'm in like perimenopause, like all the shit, like I get it.

[00:27:23] Mm-hmm .

[00:27:24] However, this is not that lens that I'm seeing this through.

[00:27:28] This is just from don't eat that.

[00:27:32] It's got mold on it.

[00:27:34] Right.

[00:27:34] Oh, what's mold?

[00:27:35] Okay.

[00:27:36] Yeah.

[00:27:36] It's bad.

[00:27:37] Like, I'm not going to eat it.

[00:27:39] Like why are, and the more, you know, right.

[00:27:43] You can make better decisions.

[00:27:46] Yes.

[00:27:46] But so I don't know how you can verbally come out and tell people don't read this book

[00:27:50] because it's going to make you gay.

[00:27:55] Maybe, or maybe, you know, you understand so that somebody else doesn't hurt themselves.

[00:28:01] Like, like where's the cause no harm.

[00:28:04] You're literally causing harm.

[00:28:06] Right.

[00:28:06] Like nobody's talked about the opposite.

[00:28:08] So how do you think they should treat gay people at work then?

[00:28:13] Right.

[00:28:13] Like, I don't understand.

[00:28:14] And it's in the name, like, oh, we're not going to support Harley Davidson because they

[00:28:20] give money to the human rights campaign.

[00:28:22] Doesn't make sense.

[00:28:24] Right.

[00:28:24] Just say that out loud, like in the mirror.

[00:28:27] Right.

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[00:29:20] And I think that's the piece that like, it doesn't, it does not equate for me.

[00:29:26] And I think for a lot of people is just the complete lack of logic.

[00:29:32] And when I stopped canceling people, but then cancel people for being inclusive of other

[00:29:38] people and then make them not inclusive.

[00:29:41] That doesn't make sense.

[00:29:43] Well, yes, it does.

[00:29:44] Because you already stated why.

[00:29:45] If I'm losing power and I don't want to lose power, the way that I can do that is

[00:29:52] to undermine lie.

[00:29:54] You're still going to lose power.

[00:29:56] I understand.

[00:29:57] But this is the, you know, the last holdout.

[00:30:00] If you have power.

[00:30:02] If you have power.

[00:30:02] And we already know, like the part that's depressing is people that are still, you know, that have,

[00:30:11] again, can't split it into just Democrat, Republican.

[00:30:14] That's just too simple.

[00:30:16] But people who have a belief system and have been able to navigate through the systems that

[00:30:20] we have, we know that there's various challenges.

[00:30:23] But when you like, we talk at my organization right now about like your best performers leave.

[00:30:30] They don't feel like they're getting what they need.

[00:30:32] And that's how it is within the country where it's like the best and the best leave here

[00:30:39] or go someplace else or they'll, you know, and that's, what's going to end up happening.

[00:30:43] And it's going to, and it's not going to be pretty.

[00:30:46] It's not going to be a world war three because no, nobody's fighting.

[00:30:50] It's not.

[00:30:50] That's stupid.

[00:30:50] What will happen though, is that you're going to end up on the wrong side.

[00:30:54] I don't know what's going to happen.

[00:30:55] I can't support you.

[00:30:56] Right.

[00:30:57] I can't support you.

[00:30:58] No.

[00:30:59] Somebody who doesn't, you know, support somebody back and it just doesn't make any sense.

[00:31:04] And, and the problem that I have is just that you would cause somebody harm.

[00:31:10] Like you're literally causing somebody pain and not caring.

[00:31:14] Exactly.

[00:31:15] Exactly.

[00:31:17] That's the piece that I don't, I don't understand it.

[00:31:19] And it's not okay.

[00:31:23] And again, I'm open.

[00:31:25] This reminded me of this, which was really funny.

[00:31:28] So I was at jury duty last week.

[00:31:30] And, um, which is always a riot, a raucous, good time.

[00:31:36] And the people were saying, these are the people that can leave.

[00:31:40] They've already left.

[00:31:41] This is what the requirements are for jury duty.

[00:31:43] Yeah.

[00:31:43] And then they put the last slide.

[00:31:45] It was like, but what about everything else?

[00:31:47] And they were like, sorry, like you're stuck here.

[00:31:50] You're going nowhere.

[00:31:52] You're going nowhere.

[00:31:52] And they were like, there are some instances where if we have to, we can reschedule.

[00:31:57] And they said, if you, but also if you come up with the reason that we haven't heard of before, we'll probably let you go home.

[00:32:07] Okay.

[00:32:07] Right.

[00:32:08] Because it was like, they've heard everything and there's absolutely nothing that you, you can do.

[00:32:14] There's nothing you can say.

[00:32:15] Yeah.

[00:32:16] You know?

[00:32:16] And it's like that, like, I will listen to you.

[00:32:20] If you want to explain this to me in a way that makes sense, I'm open.

[00:32:25] Right.

[00:32:25] I think Katie and I both have said, I am open to listening.

[00:32:31] As much as I possibly can.

[00:32:32] Absolutely.

[00:32:33] Yes.

[00:32:34] And I have changed my beliefs.

[00:32:35] I think I've started.

[00:32:37] Most people know that, know my background knows that all of us that do DEI work are not in a monolith.

[00:32:43] I think you have more of a traditional DEI background set up.

[00:32:47] And I'm like, I don't know, wild and woolly a little bit with some of the things like that I.

[00:32:52] But listen, fancy free.

[00:32:54] Well, I think it's because you've worked with really, you know, with large organizations where you've had to have a little bit more structure behind it.

[00:33:00] And I've kind of created bespoke solutions starting in the talent acquisition space and then moving slowly into the other spaces.

[00:33:08] And so there isn't a one size fit all, but we're open.

[00:33:14] Both of us are open to listening to that.

[00:33:16] But then, you know, I was talking to someone this past week and I'm like, what's your strategy?

[00:33:21] And they're like, oh, I really don't have a DEI strategy.

[00:33:23] And I just wanted to literally put them in DEI jail.

[00:33:27] Like, this is a problem.

[00:33:28] This is why we're having problems because of like people misrepresenting.

[00:33:32] It's like we need another title outside of DEI for people who aren't doing DEI work.

[00:33:36] Right.

[00:33:37] Or you don't have, I mean, we already pitched doing the data.

[00:33:41] We can't.

[00:33:42] We have to like pitch what the impact is.

[00:33:45] Mm hmm.

[00:33:47] And, and understand like, again, the first thing that you want to do is make sure that the employees that are working for you are well, feel safe and they're able to do their best work first.

[00:33:58] Before you're doing things outside performatively to make yourself look really cool.

[00:34:03] Make sure and then see because you would be able to stand up on that platform and saying, these are the people that work here as well.

[00:34:11] Like, do you want me to fire all of these people?

[00:34:13] Like, you can say we're not going to support pride, but how many people are members of the LGBTQ, you know, community that are working at whatever tractor place?

[00:34:24] Well, how do they feel?

[00:34:26] Yeah, I think that's the perfect example.

[00:34:29] And I mean, I know I've shared this before.

[00:34:31] One of the organizations that I was at for a very long time, when we started our LGBTQ ERG, I like the amount of people that then stepped forward and said, yes, I'm part of this community.

[00:34:46] It was very surprising at first, but then I was like, oh, yeah, because they didn't feel safe before.

[00:34:51] By the way, you're not allowed to say safe either.

[00:34:55] I just I found out from my brother the other day because I said about my nephew, oh, maybe he feels safe there about I don't even know what we were talking about.

[00:35:03] And he's like, no, Katie, it's not like a safe space like that.

[00:35:08] I mean, that's such a dumb thing that you guys have made up.

[00:35:11] And oh, uh huh.

[00:35:13] Yeah, it was a great conversation.

[00:35:16] But I was like, Ben, like what are.

[00:35:20] Oh.

[00:35:21] Brother with no name.

[00:35:25] Brother who shall not be named.

[00:35:27] Um, random acquaintance who shall not be named.

[00:35:30] Um, how are you opposed to your children feeling safe?

[00:35:37] Like, why would that trigger you to act in such a way when I say, well, maybe they felt safe there.

[00:35:45] Right.

[00:35:47] Like what that that it's just bizarro to me, but.

[00:35:52] Jackie.

[00:35:54] Yeah.

[00:35:55] Can they just give us the reins and let us take over?

[00:35:58] I know.

[00:35:59] I feel like it's time and they better hurry up.

[00:36:02] I'm getting older.

[00:36:03] I know I'm getting older.

[00:36:05] I mean, not as old as.

[00:36:07] Conference season is coming up.

[00:36:09] Oh my God.

[00:36:10] I know I need it.

[00:36:10] I need to actually talk to you about that offline.

[00:36:12] But yes, we need to I need to get all my business together and get it together.

[00:36:17] Um.

[00:36:19] But that being said, what's one thing you want people to have heard from this conversation?

[00:36:27] Just really take the time to get your get an accurate resource to help you form an opinion, not a tweet or an Instagram post.

[00:36:38] And if you find yourself triggered, which you might when your blood pressure goes up, calm down.

[00:36:45] Consider the source.

[00:36:47] Before you make any sudden moves or make any comments, especially if it's at work on slack or on LinkedIn in front of everybody.

[00:36:54] Were you calling somebody out and look like an idiot?

[00:36:56] Please don't do that.

[00:36:57] Well, yes.

[00:36:59] And and read the whole thing.

[00:37:01] Read everything.

[00:37:02] Right.

[00:37:04] Don't read what an influencer says and believe that they know what they're talking about, because as we know, most of them have just come out of the woodwork randomly after making sure it's even your business.

[00:37:16] Like.

[00:37:17] Also good, good, good, good call.

[00:37:20] Good call.

[00:37:21] OK.

[00:37:21] What about you?

[00:37:23] For me, it's just, you know, the.

[00:37:26] Go register to vote.

[00:37:28] You have to vote.

[00:37:29] Yes.

[00:37:30] But also I know we didn't talk about this, but regardless of what the polls are saying now and we are starting to see some favorability on the.

[00:37:41] Democrats side on some of the polls that are happening.

[00:37:45] Please don't believe that.

[00:37:46] Go vote.

[00:37:47] We all have to get out and vote.

[00:37:48] We cannot just go.

[00:37:51] Oh, it's good.

[00:37:52] Everything's fine.

[00:37:52] It's going to be fine.

[00:37:53] Everyone needs to show up on election day or if you have a mail in ballot before then whenever you can show up vote.

[00:38:01] That is all.

[00:38:03] You have to.

[00:38:05] You have to.

[00:38:06] All right.

[00:38:07] This is Katie Van Horn.

[00:38:08] And this is Jackie Clayton.

[00:38:12] Bye.

[00:38:18] Imagine how fast we could solve the world's biggest problems if more SaaS startups would gain traction sooner.

[00:38:25] Welcome to the Tech Entrepreneur on a Mission podcast.

[00:38:27] This podcast is dedicated to sharing experiences from B2B SaaS CEOs who are going above and beyond to deliver change that is noticed.

[00:38:36] You will hear their secrets and learn what is required to build a SaaS business that the world starts talking about and keeps talking about.

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