[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to Inclusive AF with Jackie Clayton and Katie Van Horn.
[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, Jackie.
[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, Katie.
[00:00:12] [SPEAKER_02]: How are you doing in Arizona?
[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_02]: It has to be what, 200 degrees?
[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_03]: It's about 200, but I want to actually have you refer to me as the Crazy Cat Lady, actually
[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_03]: the Crazy Cat and Dog Lady or single, whatever my name is now.
[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, I think it means doesn't care about America child, Liz.
[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Pet owner.
[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_02]: To be more inclusive.
[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_03]: But all of those things, but still has a vote.
[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_02]: But it doesn't count, I think.
[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't count.
[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't count as much as yours because you have babies.
[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah.
[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think actually yours counts as double because you have babies, but then they take
[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_03]: some away because you're not white.
[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, I, it's, you know, it's a whole thing.
[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot of math involved with JD Bantz.
[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So 24 has been great.
[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_03]: So far so good.
[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to the Inclusive AF Podcast.
[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh my God.
[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_03]: So what that great intro, Jackie, how is everything going for you today?
[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I have to say every morning that I wake up as a is a good day.
[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be a good day, but I can tell you like it really has felt like the
[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Twilight Zone lately.
[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_02]: It has been surreal.
[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Those of you who've listened to our last episode and we were talking about
[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_02]: people going back on their word and then going back on their go back is
[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_02]: happening.
[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_02]: We're seeing some things, but I would like to tell everybody this has
[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_02]: been after the first week after Kamala Harris was announced that they
[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_02]: were going to be the Democratic nomination.
[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And this week we have seen Southeast Asian for Harris, white women for
[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Harris, white dudes for Harris, you know, the women for Harris, the
[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Boulay has been activated and I have to imagine if you don't know
[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_02]: like Google it, but I have to imagine some of the DEI training
[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_02]: that we have been doing in the last couple of years actually sunk in
[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_02]: because we've never seen anything like it.
[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And so we have to give a little bit of a clap to all of our DEI
[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_02]: practitioners that had to work through that because it sunk in like
[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_02]: for the first time, we saw people saying, yeah, we are white dudes
[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's okay.
[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And we can still support Harris and we need to help together.
[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And the other part that has been giving me hope has been
[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_02]: people saying and recognizing.
[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_02]: But once again, we're asking all of these black women to come in
[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and save the situation that happened so many times for people
[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_02]: to acknowledge that in the world has been great.
[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Now if they can start acknowledging that at work, I mean, we're
[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_02]: getting closer though, but I mean, North Star, right?
[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_02]: That's just North Star goal.
[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_02]: We will get there.
[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I have hope after this week.
[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_03]: I will tell you, you know, I was on the white women for
[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Harris call and that was repeated probably five or six
[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_03]: different times by pretty much every speaker acknowledging the
[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_03]: fact that black women help us to organize this black women
[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_03]: helped us to get here.
[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, and exactly we're saying the burden that we've
[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_03]: always put on black women.
[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_03]: We need you to acknowledge that.
[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And also we need to come together.
[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_03]: But I want to keep this conversation going, but I also
[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_03]: want to introduce our guests.
[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_03]: So Christina would love for you to introduce yourself and
[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_03]: share a load about who you are all that good stuff.
[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And then we can continue talking politics if you'd like
[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_03]: or wherever else we want to go.
[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I'm Christina Black and I live long walks in the beach.
[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I live in Brooklyn, New York.
[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And originally from Utah, which is a long conversation for another day,
[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_01]: but I've been in New York City for 14 years.
[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And I run a company called the new quo, which does leadership
[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_01]: development and behavior change work really focused on using
[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_01]: neuroscience and narrative techniques and equity principles
[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: tell people build deeper trust and collaboration in their
[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_01]: relationships.
[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And I've mostly worked with corporations, nonprofits and
[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_01]: universities.
[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And over the last five years, I've trained 14,000 leaders
[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_01]: across nine industries.
[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And I've designed a change model, which essentially helps
[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_01]: people to disrupt automatic patterns of negative stories when
[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_01]: it comes to bias and change and difference so that they can,
[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, navigate change in a more effective aspirational
[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and collaborative way.
[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're in a time right now where we need some of that
[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_01]: more than we ever have.
[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And seeing all the news and the hope, the hope scrolling I've
[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_01]: been doing the last week with seeing the new narratives
[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and stories that people are creating about the future
[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_01]: of democracy and how we can collectively organize and how
[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_01]: leadership is something we all can take a part of has been
[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_01]: really affirming to me.
[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm hoping that that just leads us to better outcomes
[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_01]: because we need them.
[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_01]: We're in unprecedented times.
[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, when does it stops?
[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I've been unprecedented since 9-11 at least.
[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_01]: It's been unprecedented for how many decades now.
[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's interesting to see where things are going to evolve.
[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_03]: So I want to touch on what Jackie just said and say 14,000
[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_03]: leaders.
[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_03]: So you are part of this change and you are part of, you know,
[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_03]: the work that is happening now and the kind of everyone coming
[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_03]: together and actually acknowledging that we need to come
[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_03]: together to make good happen and to beat down evil.
[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't know how else to describe that because it truly
[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_03]: is just evil that we're seeing and that we're facing right now.
[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_03]: So the new quo, first of all, where'd you come up with that name?
[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I was sitting at a lunch with an ex of mine.
[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_01]: This was in like 2014.
[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And I kept saying, oh, the thing I want to build is about
[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_01]: changing the status quo and how we're essentially approaching
[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_01]: it when we're thinking about it.
[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And we are throwing words around.
[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think he was the one that said the new quo
[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_01]: possibly.
[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, wait, that's got a little ring to it.
[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_01]: The new quo.
[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Because we're about changing things and we're creating this new
[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_01]: status quo.
[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And I quickly Googled to see what websites, because you always
[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_01]: got to check the URLs, you know, people be squatting on the
[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_01]: URLs.
[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't available.
[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I grabbed it right away.
[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was all the way back in 2014 at the earlier stages
[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_01]: of my career before I was an entrepreneur.
[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, just stuck.
[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's always been a pretty accurate expression of the
[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_01]: things that I care about and the work that I want to do
[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_01]: in the world with just helping people to understand the
[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: status quo is changeable.
[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And usually storytelling is one of our fastest ways to do it.
[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Now I'm going to ask a question.
[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Totally off topic.
[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll get back because it was in your bio.
[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Why do you know so many ways to use Jello?
[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to forget.
[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to know too.
[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_02]: We need to talk about that.
[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I can't.
[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we'll get into it in a second.
[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is probably an old joke about Utah, but Utah one point.
[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_01]: The state food was Jello.
[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it was because of the amount that people were
[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_01]: consuming.
[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if it's just like a cheap and malleable food for
[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_01]: big families or something, but we had for a long time, we were
[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_01]: like the top consumers of Jello in the country.
[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I used to make fun of that because I would show up
[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_01]: to like classmate events and people would have these wild
[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_01]: looking Jello castle rolls with savory pieces and stuff in
[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_01]: them.
[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, this, I love creativity.
[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I love DIY, but this is going too far.
[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_01]: We're pushing the limits of what we should be doing with our
[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_01]: food right now.
[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's just kind of a funny nod to the quirkiness of
[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_01]: different parts of the culture that's in Utah.
[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if they're still consuming Jello as much as
[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_01]: they did, but I'm probably keep saying that till the day I
[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_01]: am no longer on this planet because I just thought it
[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_01]: was funny.
[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_02]: It's funny.
[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And at some point offline, we'll get more into the
[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_02]: conversation with Jello now.
[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, we'll bring it back.
[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you know, I'm thinking so I come from a big Catholic
[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_03]: family and I think we had a similar situation where it
[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_03]: was.
[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_03]: What Jello can do and what you can add to it to make
[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_03]: kids eat it.
[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, so I think it's absolutely that like the big
[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_03]: family piece is definitely a part of that.
[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_03]: But so when you think about, you know, kind of the
[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_03]: work that you are doing and how you actually change
[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_03]: the story or help people tell their story.
[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_03]: What are the things that come to mind?
[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Or what are the things that really help people that are
[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_03]: new to this work or people that are new to thinking about
[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_03]: equity and inclusion and how to kind of frame that in
[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_03]: their own heads with their own story?
[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a really great question.
[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I really start with the concept that leadership is
[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_01]: just the act of storytelling around goals.
[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And then when people understand that they're like,
[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_01]: well, I'm doing that all the time because you tell
[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_01]: stories constantly.
[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the status 65% of all of our daily communication is
[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_01]: the story, whether it's with family or friends or
[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_01]: lovers or coworkers.
[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_01]: You're always using stories to model change and to
[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_01]: demonstrate events and experiences.
[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I start there.
[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_01]: You have stories are already telling and which one of
[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_01]: these stories are helping you to move things further
[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_01]: along and to create better understanding and trust.
[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And which of these stories might be getting in the
[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_01]: way of your beliefs around leadership and power?
[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Because we all have sets of narratives we picked up
[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_01]: from family and media and education and schooling.
[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And some of those can be inaccurate and not necessarily
[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: the full picture of history or culture and how it works.
[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I help people to really examine first their
[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_01]: self narratives.
[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So what are the narratives they believe about leadership
[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and power, where they come from?
[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_01]: How are they showing up in their current decision
[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_01]: making and goal setting and communication?
[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And then also getting them to attune to other
[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_01]: people's stories and ask better questions so
[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_01]: they can have a better picture of the people
[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_01]: they're interacting with.
[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And because typically we project whatever stories
[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_01]: we believe onto people based on their appearance,
[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_01]: how they carry themselves, how they speak,
[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_01]: what they may wear and those stereotype stories
[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_01]: can really create a lot of issues in groups as we know.
[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I walk people through that model.
[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_01]: It's sort of what I call it is awareness,
[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_01]: attunement and then action.
[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So how do you have awareness of your own stories?
[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you attend other stories?
[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And then how do you create a new narrative
[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and vision around goals in a group so that everybody
[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_01]: feels brought in like they're actually being
[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_01]: delegated and improved and supported in the right ways?
[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And then using that process over and over again,
[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_01]: because stories are always being developed and made.
[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_01]: We have this automatic process in our bodies,
[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_01]: prior from evolution of just putting things
[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_01]: in a narrative format so we can recall them
[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and pass them on.
[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And so that process is always ongoing and we can refine it
[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and get better at it and use it as a tool
[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_01]: for better understanding and collaboration
[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_01]: instead of disruption and negativity,
[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_01]: which we see right now in the political sphere.
[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_01]: There are people who are using narrative to spend lives,
[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_01]: to create myths, to further perpetuate stereotypes,
[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_01]: which leads to measurable, pretty significant loss
[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_01]: in terms of life, in terms of trust,
[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_01]: in terms of resources.
[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So getting people to do the positive side of storytelling,
[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_01]: which is self-insight, awareness,
[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and then persuasion is really the work that I'm doing.
[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And teaching people that anybody,
[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_01]: regardless of title status appearance,
[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_01]: has power through the types of narratives they create
[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_01]: around their ideas and their goals.
[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's really important.
[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of times when we're talking about imposter syndrome,
[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_02]: but then when we're talking about imposter syndrome,
[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_02]: but then for black and brown folks,
[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of times it can be internal stereotyping
[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_02]: of themselves based on the narrative
[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_02]: that they've been fed, based in their communities.
[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So I was curious how,
[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_02]: when you get started, I imagine there are some people
[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_02]: that may not realize that they have
[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_02]: some of these stories.
[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_02]: How do you help navigate that piece,
[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_02]: like with the self-identification or self-awareness
[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_02]: within stories?
[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I think practice is really important.
[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of my trainings, I design them
[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: to be engaging and dynamic and entertaining,
[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and also in real time they're practicing the concepts.
[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So one of them is essentially learning about
[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_01]: the story of other people's names.
[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And when they're doing that in real time,
[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01]: they're kind of examining some of the assumptions
[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and ideas they may have attached to people
[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_01]: they've known for a very long time.
[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_01]: They're like, I didn't know this fact about the history
[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and your family chose this and your ancestry is that.
[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And I learned all of that from the simple question
[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_01]: of learning the story of your name.
[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And so my sessions, I really want people
[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_01]: to practice things in real time because
[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: they challenge a lot of the time in equity work
[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: as it feels very abstract and it feels like
[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_01]: it's an external thing.
[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like these boogeymen and these bad people,
[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_01]: but really it's a process of personal development.
[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So how do you become more conscious
[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and aware of the ways you show up in conversation,
[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_01]: the ways that you interact with people
[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and then do it in real time as you're learning the concepts.
[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So they're like, oh wow, okay I get that.
[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_01]: If I ask more meaningful questions
[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm more curious and open,
[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I can learn stories about people
[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and also examine my own before I make decisions,
[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_01]: before I move to the next step.
[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I see that being the most effective.
[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Like an example is I did a project with Nextdoor
[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_01]: which is a large social media platform.
[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_01]: They helped to connect neighbors across the country
[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and they had gotten a lot of backlash
[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_01]: around people profiling their neighbors on the platform.
[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_01]: They'd be like, hey who's that black man in a sweater?
[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_01]: They're like, Karen, that is your neighbor
[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_01]: who has lived here for 40 years.
[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Why are you acting scared?
[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And so they were really concerned.
[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Like how do we arm our moderators
[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_01]: with techniques and tools to manage conversation
[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_01]: in a more effective way.
[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And some of the pieces of the training that I designed
[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_01]: that we ran for three years was them examining self-stories
[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_01]: around how do they react to change and difference.
[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And how does that affect how they moderate content
[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and also what are some tools
[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_01]: to deescalate microaggressions and conflict.
[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And we got a lot of really great feedback
[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_01]: where people were like, this is the first time
[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I've ever thought about how am I affecting this issue
[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and doing it in a way that feels aspirational
[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and positive versus shameful.
[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Where it's like, oh I can show up in a better way
[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and create a neighborhood that feels more civil
[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: when I'm conscious of how I'm entering these conversations
[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_01]: when I'm bringing to them
[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and how I'm also moderating them.
[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think connecting that piece of your inner stories
[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_01]: can help create better outcomes versus shaming people
[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_01]: is such a powerful step.
[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Because most people avoid the work because they're afraid of shame
[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and they're afraid of blame.
[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, it's not about shaming and blaming.
[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_01]: It's how do you reach your fullest potential as a leader,
[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_01]: as an individual by examining those stories
[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_01]: that might get in the way of how you interact with people
[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and doing it in a way that doesn't feel like
[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a detrimental labeling thing.
[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Like all of us can do that work no matter what our backgrounds are
[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: or no matter what we look like.
[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I agree with you.
[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like so many people do feel that shame and blame.
[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's interesting because that's part of the narrative
[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and I think part of why we've seen such a backlash.
[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Part, I mean there's a million reasons it's not just one
[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_02]: but part of it has to do with you hear of that shame
[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_02]: and blame or you don't like America
[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_02]: or you are making us feel bad because we're white
[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and men are straight and now it's all of our fault.
[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's why that was like so powerful this past week
[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_02]: when you saw people like sitting in their identities
[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and being able to be like, no, we're not, nobody's shaming you.
[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like you're bringing up these things of where it is.
[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like it's interesting that you said,
[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I love the example of next door because you're working with moderators
[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_02]: that were dealing with like it wasn't even their neighborhood.
[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Like they, it wasn't them doing it.
[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_02]: But they had to get on top of it before you see like a full riot
[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_02]: because of profiling on this app.
[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I imagine that people were really surprised
[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_02]: of how did they internalize that?
[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_02]: What was something that, what do you think was the best outcome of that
[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and what do you think was one of the shocking things
[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_02]: that you might have picked up on maybe any surprises
[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_02]: that came out of those three years
[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and with so much as you can share, I don't want you to share any.
[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So one of the interesting things is their moderator model
[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_01]: was actually by volunteers.
[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So the people who first started their neighborhood forum
[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_01]: became the lead moderator first
[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and then they have internal moderation teams
[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: that then check the content from there.
[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And so most volunteer moderators won didn't feel like leaders.
[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So that was interesting where they're like,
[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what impact I'm going to have is just a little on me.
[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I can really step in and manage this.
[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So there was a significant shift in people feeling actual leadership
[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: like, oh, I have a way I can make an impact
[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_01]: even as someone who doesn't normally consider myself a leader.
[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that shift is important because we have this old
[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_01]: antiquated narrative that leadership is about title status appearance
[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and a certain amount of money.
[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So people felt more commitment and accountability to leaning change
[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_01]: in their neighborhood conversations.
[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_01]: The other part that was fascinating to me is so we had around 43,000
[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_01]: people sign up for it and about a third completed the full training.
[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And half of them were moderates and conservatives,
[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_01]: which was shocking to me because it was by volunteer.
[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_01]: They weren't required to do the training because this is a volunteer
[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_01]: moderation role.
[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But I was surprised that, you know,
[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_01]: people who aren't already kind of bought into the idea of equity were like,
[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_01]: let me see what this is about.
[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_01]: How am I going to be more of a moderator in somebody who facilitates
[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_01]: respectful conversation?
[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think because it was positioned as we all want the outcome
[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_01]: of a respectful civil neighborhood where we feel safe and everybody
[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_01]: can agree on that.
[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And the tools to get us there is to learn how to reduce the ways
[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_01]: that we might have bias in our conversations,
[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_01]: the ways that we might show up in these instances so we can
[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_01]: have better outcomes.
[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that was appealing to people that didn't expect
[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_01]: quite honestly to be open to it.
[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the third thing that was surprising for me is people were
[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_01]: saying, oh, this work that we're learning around relationship
[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: dynamics and psychology and bias and story,
[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I could use this in my family.
[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I should use this in my dynamics in my personal life because
[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_01]: we're not taught how to navigate differences in general.
[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we definitely aren't taught how to have healthy
[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_01]: relationships across the board.
[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_01]: That's something people learn through trial and error.
[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And then maybe personal development and therapy and whatever
[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_01]: other choices you make.
[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_01]: But people are like, wow, I might take these tools around
[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_01]: microaggressions and conflict escalation and narrative making
[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and use this in my personal life.
[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And I wish people could see this outside of a moderation role
[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_01]: because this is something you can do whether you're a
[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_01]: moderator or not.
[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think those three things were really interesting.
[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we had Stanford University evaluate the work.
[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And they saw that people changed their behavior for six
[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_01]: months past the course on the platform.
[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So we were seeing real change behavior over time.
[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So for me, it's the small tweaks, you know,
[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: giving people tools on how you can show up slightly
[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_01]: differently in terms of questions, conversation,
[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_01]: communication tactics, storytelling tactics.
[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And it feels accessible in a way that anybody of any
[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_01]: background can do it.
[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_01]: All those things were really powerful and it gave me hope
[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_01]: that this sort of bigger societal work we're doing
[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_01]: around our relationship dynamics or group dynamics
[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_01]: can change because we have never successfully had a
[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_01]: multiracial society.
[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: We've never successfully have a multiracial democracy.
[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And our microcosms of group dynamics are a reflection
[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_01]: of that.
[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think people being able to come into groups
[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and be, you know, accountable, positive, proactive
[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and trying to create better outcomes was really
[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_01]: inspirational for me and really helpful because I
[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: think some often people are like, this work doesn't
[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_01]: matter.
[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_01]: People don't care about it.
[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_01]: They hate it.
[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_01]: It's reactionary.
[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a check on the box.
[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And all that can definitely be true.
[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think most people, if you ask them, do you want to
[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_01]: have healthy, trusting relationships with people and
[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_01]: be able to engage with and communicate with anyone?
[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Most people would say, yeah.
[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I think most people want that skill but they don't
[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_01]: realize that this work that's been shamed and
[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_01]: falsely maligned is a way to get there.
[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like really, it's been really, it's scary.
[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_02]: We have, there is a point where there has been
[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: some real fear, especially for people doing DEI work.
[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Am I going to have to do it tomorrow?
[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Are we really taking it seriously?
[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_02]: What's going to be the overall impact or not being
[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_02]: able to see things go to fruition?
[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_02]: How have you been able to, I don't want to say
[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_02]: make the business case.
[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_02]: But if when things come up or if there has been
[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_02]: a fear of pushback for DEI, how are you able,
[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_02]: what have you been able to do to help people
[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_02]: stay positive if they feed another story about
[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_02]: why this is maybe a bad choice?
[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've always positioned this work as
[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_01]: change management work and leadership work.
[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think people are always open to that
[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: because leadership is never going to go away,
[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_01]: the function of it.
[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_01]: But baking in DEI principles makes you an effective
[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_01]: leader.
[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Not doing that means you will not be an
[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_01]: effective leader.
[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think when people realize that it's just
[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_01]: a best case skill to collaboration, innovation,
[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_01]: problem solving, managing groups and conflicts
[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_01]: that may come up in it, they're open to it.
[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So I just bake it in as a best practice.
[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, the interpersonal communication that we have
[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and the ways that DEI can help us to have better
[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_01]: outcomes makes people more open.
[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I think if it's anything that's been a little
[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_01]: bit more punitive, so people who come in
[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_01]: saying like, hey, we really messed up.
[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Our culture is jacked.
[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_01]: We are trying to course correct.
[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Those people tend to have a bigger struggle
[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_01]: with committing to this because they see DEI as a
[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_01]: separate function and not a core function of a good
[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_01]: business organization.
[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And I typically don't tend to work with those clients that much
[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_01]: because they're not committing to longer term work
[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_01]: or behavior change work.
[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Because a lot of my programming, it's courses
[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and workshops and coaching.
[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a full program that you go through to create
[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_01]: longer term behavior change versus just a one off thing.
[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So those organizations were never committed to begin
[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_01]: with like even before this moment, you know,
[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_01]: in 2020, which I called the black rush because
[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_01]: everyone was like, black people help us.
[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_01]: We're learning about these things.
[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I was getting so many emails and there was kind of
[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_01]: a 50-50 split of people who were like, we need to do
[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_01]: this one big thing one time so that we don't look
[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_01]: bad in public and so we don't get sued.
[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And those people, I was like, this is not a good
[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_01]: idea.
[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a good decision.
[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not going to change much.
[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_01]: It might actually create more harm.
[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And I would turn them down versus people who were
[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_01]: like, you know what, we're really interested in
[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_01]: incorporating equity principles into all of our
[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_01]: business goals.
[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_01]: How do we do that?
[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_01]: We're really interested in upscaling people's
[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_01]: leadership skills before they are in leadership
[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_01]: positions.
[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_01]: How do we do that?
[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's where this work is more effective and
[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_01]: where it lies is like this longer term behavior
[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01]: change work that is just doing good business
[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_01]: versus I got to do this because I'm afraid of
[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_01]: the public.
[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, yeah, that's not going to last
[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_01]: anyways.
[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we're in that moment now where people
[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_01]: are afraid and the ones who are backtracking
[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_01]: saw this as a glamor kind of performative
[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_01]: thing similar to what we've seen in the
[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_01]: environmental sustainability portion of
[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_01]: business work where people are like, I'm
[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_01]: agreeing, watch this and that so I don't get
[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_01]: in trouble with the public.
[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And then as soon as it gets a little
[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_01]: challenging they roll back their
[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_01]: sustainability commitments.
[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And I need people to make and connect the
[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_01]: dots and understand that whatever choices
[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_01]: you're making in your business, whether
[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_01]: they're for the right reasons or not do
[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_01]: have an impact.
[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you aren't committing to long
[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_01]: term change or probably creating more harm.
[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Katie, I've been monopolizing the
[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_02]: conversation.
[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't want you to, I'm sorry.
[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_03]: No, no, I'm listening.
[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I was fascinated.
[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, I love this concept of just
[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_03]: baking stuff in because I think that's
[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_03]: also something that, you know, being in HR
[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_03]: we have so many of these compliance
[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_03]: trainings that we have folks do.
[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And so when, you know, HR is introducing
[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_03]: DEI training they go, oh, this is
[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_03]: just another compliance thing versus
[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_03]: no, this is just part of leadership
[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_03]: training.
[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_03]: This is part of being a good team
[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_03]: member.
[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_03]: This is, you know, part of just being a
[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_03]: part of this group or this team or
[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_03]: whatever you want to call it.
[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, I think that's the part
[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_03]: that also I love that you called that
[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_03]: out because I think that's just such
[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_03]: an important piece to the puzzle that
[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_03]: people don't think about.
[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I would love to shift a little bit
[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_03]: and
[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_03]: just talk about, you know, the
[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_03]: the uproar or the
[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_03]: thoughts that you might have
[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_03]: on the Olympics and the opening
[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_03]: ceremony and all of the kind of
[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I loved it.
[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Loved it.
[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Love the ceremony.
[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Ten tens across the board.
[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes.
[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_02]: The best one I've ever seen.
[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_02]: It was so, I don't know, I like it.
[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's funny. So I caught it at
[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_01]: the end. So I got home from like a dinner
[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_01]: or something, turn on the TV and
[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the first thing I saw
[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_01]: was the masked guy that was carrying
[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_01]: the torch he's running all through the city
[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_01]: on the roof. So I'm like, what's going on?
[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Who stole the torch? I'm like, what's happening?
[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I had no context.
[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm watching this. I'm like, okay, now they've got this cool little still
[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_01]: horse going down the scene
[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and then they have like these
[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: dancers of fireworks and then I got to see Celine
[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm like, oh, this is getting good.
[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So I ended up going online
[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and I saw the outrage, the, you know,
[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_01]: evangelical claim that this was disrespectful
[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_01]: to the Last Supper
[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_01]: because of the fashion show that happened
[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and it was really actually the Greek Dionysus dinner.
[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So they were missing cultural references.
[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_01]: But this is why equity is important.
[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_01]: DEI actually helps people to
[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_01]: expand the set of stories that they know
[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_01]: about culture and history so that they
[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_01]: can respond to change in difference more accurately.
[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Right? If people had a more
[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_01]: accurate picture of French history,
[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_01]: they would know that all of the art
[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and all the performance art across the city was an expression
[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_01]: of their history, how they
[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_01]: fought against erotocracy,
[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_01]: how they just fought against a really extreme
[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_01]: right wing group
[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_01]: recently and why they're celebrating
[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_01]: inclusivity and genuinely
[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_01]: all the different demographic expressions
[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_01]: of French people. And that's what the whole
[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_01]: story was about. And so I was like,
[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_01]: oh, this makes sense now that people were confused
[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_01]: because they didn't have a historical
[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_01]: context, they didn't have that cultural context
[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and they think the world revolves
[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_01]: around the US. Sorry y'all it doesn't.
[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_01]: They weren't even thinking about us. They were like, this is cute.
[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to try to celebrate Marie Antoinette,
[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, and her
[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_01]: heading with metal music
[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_01]: as a marrying to it, which was
[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_01]: really interesting. I also
[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_01]: went and watched part of the documentary
[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_01]: about how it was made afterwards. It's on
[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Peacock
[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and it was interesting to hear that they were like, we
[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_01]: really want people to see
[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_01]: that we want to celebrate what makes
[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_01]: France different and we have to look at
[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_01]: everybody who's
[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_01]: a French person and you know regardless
[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_01]: of disability or, you know, sexual
[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_01]: expression, gender identity,
[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_01]: race. So I think they did
[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_01]: an incredible job. Now as a viewer
[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_01]: if you were there in person on the
[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_01]: river, that might have been a little challenging
[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_01]: because it was raining and all you could see
[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_01]: was the boats going by and
[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_01]: you only saw the performances on a
[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_01]: little like, you know, jump
[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Otron. It was definitely made for
[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_01]: TV first and I think
[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_01]: the TV experience was incredible
[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_01]: but being in person, I would have been a little
[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_01]: tight while sitting there in the rain and I'm like
[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_01]: we can't even see nothing because it's spread
[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01]: out. Yes.
[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_03]: But the thing is
[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_03]: even when the rain like I did love just
[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_03]: going back and looking
[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_03]: at the highlights too of like all of the cool
[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_03]: things and then all of the
[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_03]: meaning of all of it actually because
[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't know
[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_03]: a lot of those references
[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_03]: either so to be able to see, oh
[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_03]: that's not a horse of the apocalypse.
[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_03]: That's actually, you know, whoever
[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_03]: and some of these things that were
[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_03]: just so ridiculous now like
[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_03]: okay and again to your point
[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_03]: guess what folks it's
[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_03]: not all about Christianity and it's not
[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_03]: all about the United States. It's
[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_01]: weird. Also I had such a great muscle
[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_01]: to build because I tell people
[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and so one of the things I talk about is
[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: narrative intelligence. So it's understanding
[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_01]: how story effects bias, belief and behavior
[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and also being aware of your internal stories as well
[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_01]: as external and this
[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01]: response so people who have a more
[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_01]: amplified response to change
[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and difference typically have a stronger
[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_01]: reaction in their amygdala they think it's
[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_01]: absolutely a threat and that can
[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_01]: lead to so many inaccuracies and missteps
[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and then you're missing out on really great
[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_01]: collaboration, conversation, creativity
[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and innovation when you are always jumping
[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_01]: to the worst case story or the worst
[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_01]: case scenario about what's happening
[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and so I think that's an important
[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_01]: reminder here where it's like wait let's take
[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_01]: a beat. Let's not jump to the most
[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_01]: derogatory
[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_01]: stereotype story I associate with this event
[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_01]: what are other things that could explain it? Let's expand
[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_01]: the set of narratives that we know
[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_01]: about this thing before we make a decision
[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_01]: before we say something and that process
[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_01]: slowing that down for people because
[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_01]: it's an automatic process and it's one
[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_01]: based in fear and one based
[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_01]: in survival is
[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_01]: such a big part of the work because I think
[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_01]: when people slow that process down and don't jump
[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_01]: to a stereotype and then jump
[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_01]: to anger and fear they're more likely to be able
[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_01]: to have better conversation and collaboration
[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and now we spent how much energy do we waste
[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_01]: explaining stuff
[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_01]: to people and reducing
[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_01]: their iron anger when that could have been
[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_01]: spent having better conversation and dialogue
[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_01]: about what this means and what it inspired
[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_01]: you know we waste I don't think people also
[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_01]: know the cost of
[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_01]: bias and the cost of
[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_01]: distrust and it's literally
[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_01]: stalled innovation it keeps us from
[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_01]: solving problems it doesn't help
[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_01]: us to get to the safety that we
[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_01]: want because when we have lots of distrust it's very hard
[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_01]: to feel safe so it doesn't fix anything
[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_01]: it just slows everything down and makes it
[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_01]: worse so people who are defaulting
[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_01]: into that pattern out of fear are actually
[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_01]: creating more instability in their lives
[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and more unsafe conditions
[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_01]: than they are actually creating that stability
[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and security that they're craving
[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_01]: so I hope people learn from these moments
[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_01]: where they're like yeah you know it's okay
[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_01]: to take a beat it's okay to not always
[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_01]: attack and try to police and control
[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_01]: the things you don't understand maybe
[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_01]: take a beat to try to understand it first
[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_03]: and also get a passport
[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_03]: and travel and actually go
[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_03]: experience hey you're muted so you can't
[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_02]: yell at me right now.
[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Get a passport
[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_03]: and go travel would be my other
[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_03]: you know I think that's
[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_03]: it's fascinating because I think that's the
[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_03]: other piece is that if you start to go
[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_03]: look in other countries
[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_03]: and other places and start to see
[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_03]: all of the differences
[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_03]: it also just opens your eyes and to your point
[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_03]: the exhaustion
[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_03]: of just having to go
[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_03]: let me defend this thing that really
[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_03]: isn't mine to defend but I just
[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_03]: the ignorance is
[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_03]: so startling that you're like
[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_03]: how
[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_03]: why does it all a why does it always have to be about
[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_03]: you but b why does it always
[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_03]: have to be the worst story
[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_02]: when you see it you say
[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_02]: oh that's something new
[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_02]: right wonder what that is
[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_02]: like leading with curiosity
[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_02]: like and I'll take
[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll click it one step further
[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_02]: what if it was the last suffer
[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_02]: like why don't you just
[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_02]: accept that maybe somebody
[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_02]: sees something in a way
[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_02]: different than you
[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and try to find out more
[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_02]: about what
[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Jackie I did hear
[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_03]: or see one comment that was like let's be really clear
[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_03]: the French would never highlight an Italian
[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_03]: artist
[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_03]: that's hilarious
[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_01]: that's very accurate and true
[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I believe that
[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_01]: it also points to something I talk about often
[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_01]: in my trainings is this idea of a culture
[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_01]: of autopilot versus a culture of curiosity
[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_01]: because autopilot is
[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_01]: immediate assumptions stereotypes
[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_01]: fear when you are confronted
[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_01]: with changing difference but a culture of curiosities
[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_01]: you stop and ask questions
[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_01]: first and so the questions might help
[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_01]: you to assume and or get to a point
[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_01]: of oh actually this is unsafe and we need to do something
[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_01]: about it or it might be like
[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm learning something new this is different
[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_01]: this is interesting let's see what
[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I can explore and to build on to what you were saying
[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_01]: about the passport you know a lot of people don't
[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_01]: necessarily have the income to travel but even if you
[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_01]: don't books and stories
[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and narrative podcasts
[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_01]: movies are an incredible way to travel
[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and experience other people you know
[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a concept called narrative transport
[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_01]: which means when you are listening to a story
[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_01]: you experience it as if it's firsthand
[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and so that's a really great
[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_01]: way to explore other cultures and experiences
[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and ideas when you expand the set of stories
[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_01]: that you're consuming and so I tell
[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_01]: people often do a story audit you know
[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_01]: expand what you're listening to reading
[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_01]: watching and curating
[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and that can make you more creative it makes you
[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_01]: more interesting in conversations it helps you
[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_01]: to relate to people who are different there's lots
[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: of groups and places I've never been but I
[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_01]: can damn sure look them up and learn about them
[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't even have to necessarily get on a plane
[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's the first time in human history
[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_01]: we've had this much information at our fingertips
[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_01]: where before it was just through
[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe the leader of your community the
[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_01]: pressure their church goer or whatever
[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_01]: so we're at a really incredible time of
[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_01]: there's not an excuse to not expose yourself
[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_01]: to new ideas you have so much ease of
[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_01]: access to information it's just
[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_01]: feeling like it's a priority and it's
[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_01]: something that's beneficial to you I think there are
[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_01]: people who have learned not doing
[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_01]: new things not being exposed to difference
[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_01]: is makes them safer and I
[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_01]: fundamentally disagree
[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that actually creates a lot of instability
[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and why we're facing so many problems
[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I appreciate that that
[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_02]: is really smart because that's
[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_02]: what I've seen so often
[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I live in Waco, Texas
[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_02]: my mother-in-law is here in Waco, Texas
[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_02]: it is the home of Dr. Pepper
[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_02]: that's a fun fact
[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_02]: we were in New York City
[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and they went and asked
[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_02]: for a Dr. Pepper like at McDonald's
[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and they were like we don't have
[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Dr. Pepper but we have root beer
[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_02]: so then it was like two things like
[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_02]: number one why don't we have number
[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Dr. Pepper and number two
[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_02]: why are you suggesting that root beer is even
[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_02]: a close second to Dr. Pepper
[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_02]: it was like a brown soda
[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_02]: that's not code and
[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_02]: she like fell
[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_02]: then we go to the next place and she knows
[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to ask for Dr. Pepper so I'm going to
[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_02]: ask for sweet tea again we're in the northeast
[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_02]: and like could not
[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_02]: wrap the brain around
[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_02]: and then immediately
[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_02]: wants to go home and how
[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_02]: many times have we
[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_02]: where that is the opportunity of learning
[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and expanding so that you can get
[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_02]: you know go some place
[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and have that
[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_02]: mindset I don't know
[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I yeah
[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_03]: the caveat to that
[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I will say Jackie is when we've been traveling
[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_03]: somewhere like in Vietnam and we were there
[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_03]: for about two and a half weeks
[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_03]: we did go to McDonald's and it was
[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_03]: literally I just need something I understand
[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_03]: and know
[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_03]: and you know that I
[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_03]: all the food there was phenomenal
[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_03]: and then we found like a Mexican restaurant
[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_03]: in no man's land in Vietnam
[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_03]: which was also hilarious but
[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_03]: McDonald's is always your go to if you can't
[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_03]: find what you need you know
[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I always ordered Pad Thai
[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I was in Barcelona and ordered Pad Thai
[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and my husband was like what are you doing
[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_02]: but it's not me
[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_02]: like where are the top best I was like I don't know
[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_02]: it was a panic situation
[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_01]: things are the thought for me too this idea
[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a false belief
[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_01]: that ignoring
[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_01]: differences and change means that they go away
[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_01]: because the only thing guaranteed in life
[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_01]: is change we're constantly changing
[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean change is inevitable it's
[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and you know it's a part of the nature
[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_01]: the law of nature you know things are always changing
[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and regenerating
[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_01]: dying and birthing and so there's
[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_01]: no resistance to that and I think when people get
[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_01]: a healthier relationship to uncertainty
[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and change they can have a healthier
[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_01]: relationship to other people and I think
[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_01]: that's the main struggle most humans have
[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_01]: is how they react to uncertainty is
[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_01]: deep fear and deep anger
[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's like well if it's uncertain and different
[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_01]: take a beat let's let's get some information
[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_01]: first we can make informed decisions
[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_01]: instead of knee jerk reactions
[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_01]: that lead to just more instability
[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and more harm but I think
[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_03]: that's also
[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_03]: your spot on and I think that's also
[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_03]: the way that the media
[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_03]: and certain folks
[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_03]: prey on
[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_03]: people that are uninformed
[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_03]: it is you know let me tell you all the bad
[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_03]: things about this thing why we don't want
[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_03]: to have any progressive
[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_03]: ideas or new types of
[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_03]: jobs that we haven't had before or
[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_03]: move away from coal or
[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_03]: any of these things
[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_03]: the fear factor
[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_03]: you know
[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I
[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Jack and I have talked about this a lot
[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_03]: of the you assume positive intent but also
[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_03]: have to understand the impact of your words
[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_03]: and I think that's the piece that's most
[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_03]: frustrating right now is the impact of the words
[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_03]: that people are using
[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_03]: and the way they're talking about progress
[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_03]: and innovation and where we need to go
[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_03]: to keep the United States
[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_03]: at the forefront of so many things
[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_03]: it is like well no we either
[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_03]: have to go back to the
[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_03]: 1800s or
[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_03]: that's it we're all going to die and it's all over
[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_01]: we control all the human rights
[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_01]: it's like no you can't do that
[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's also this
[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_01]: interesting idea that like
[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of people
[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_01]: tend to struggle with the concept
[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_01]: that
[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_01]: we're in a time
[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_01]: period where whatever myths
[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and narratives that we make can explode
[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_01]: pretty quickly and a lot of that
[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_01]: is a distraction and I think they don't realize
[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_01]: that people in positions of power
[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_01]: who want to hoard as much resources
[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_01]: as possible have an incentive to create
[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_01]: myths that are untrue
[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and to blame your problems on others
[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_01]: quote unquote or people who are
[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_01]: the enemy quote unquote as threat
[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_01]: to distract you from the reality of them taking
[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_01]: your resources and that's been a strategy
[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_01]: that's been used for centuries
[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and there's like lots of really great books about this
[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and the zero sum games that have been created
[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_01]: in economic and political policy
[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_01]: so it's a distraction it's a very old
[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_01]: narrative making strategy
[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and sometimes I'm like I wish people would just come up with new
[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_01]: oppressive tactics it's just getting kind of
[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_01]: boring and predictable at this point like
[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Rosalda's list with your bigotry at this point
[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_01]: if you bebis the same old shtick
[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_01]: over and over again like
[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_01]: the immigrants are taking your things
[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_01]: the no transgender you know whatever
[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_01]: enemy or group that they're pinpointing
[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_01]: when in fact if you follow the money
[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_01]: you follow the policy it is a very
[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_01]: small percentage of privileged
[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_01]: elite people typically
[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_01]: owner class or you know
[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_01]: very wealthy individuals
[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_01]: who are making circumstances harder
[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_01]: for a lot of people so I'm like
[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_01]: you know it's a distraction
[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_02]: you know since before the slave trade but then you also see that like if we
[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_02]: actually get together
[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_02]: then people are going to take over like if we actually
[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_02]: see ourselves
[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_02]: as being able to partner and we don't
[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_02]: other each other
[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_02]: what's going to happen and it is amazing
[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_02]: that we are still
[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_02]: seeing that and I think that's why
[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_02]: um
[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_02]: like the past week or some of the things
[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_02]: that we've been seeing lately has been so
[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_02]: amazing because you're seeing a
[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_02]: slight shift it can that happen
[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_02]: for ever I don't know
[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_02]: but it is good to see a different
[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_02]: outcome than what we've seen
[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_02]: in the past over and over
[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and over so that is
[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_02]: positive and I hope it starts
[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_02]: the beginning of new
[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_02]: narratives and new
[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_01]: stories. I think people are seeing
[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_01]: you know there's really great
[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_01]: people who've written about this before me but the
[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_01]: cost of white supremacy
[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and sexism and all the isms
[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_01]: is on everybody you know and I think that's
[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_01]: the thing people are realizing like oh this is bad for everybody
[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_01]: so it doesn't
[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_01]: this isn't good for anyone so why should be
[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_01]: upholded why should be protected and
[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_01]: people are getting close to literally almost losing
[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_01]: their rights to vote in democracy
[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and they're like well maybe we shouldn't fight back
[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_01]: a little bit I'm like you shouldn't have to get to this
[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_01]: point of extreme but it
[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_01]: takes for people to see that the systems around
[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_01]: us isn't just you work hard
[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_01]: enough and you pick yourself up by your bootstraps and you'll win
[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_01]: the game and you'll be fine
[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_01]: it's rigged against most people regardless
[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_01]: of what they look like and so when people
[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_01]: recognize that and see that we need to build
[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_01]: new systems, new ways that we relate
[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_01]: how we set goals, how we make stuff, how we share resources
[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I think people are
[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_01]: waking up to that it's been through
[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_01]: pretty significant
[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_01]: social unrest you know the pandemic
[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_01]: our climate change issues and our political instability
[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I think this is
[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_01]: shaking people and waking them up that these
[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_01]: systems need to change and we all
[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_01]: have a contribution to
[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_01]: creating that change or not
[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_03]: absolutely and I
[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_03]: think that's the piece that also has
[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_03]: been
[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_03]: really cool to see
[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_03]: and
[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_03]: all of these groups that have come together
[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_03]: and you know the last week, week and a
[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_03]: half I just
[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_03]: my hope is that
[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_03]: it continues and that there isn't
[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_03]: some derailment like
[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I that is my biggest worry
[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_03]: is that there's going to be some sort of derailment
[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_03]: but I think you know the momentum
[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_03]: is going such way that people are going away
[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_03]: this does impact me
[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_03]: this does impact my world
[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_03]: versus those other people
[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_03]: over there that I don't need to worry about
[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_03]: and it's like how did you not see this
[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_03]: already
[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_03]: you know like all of the things that we've seen
[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_03]: happening with Supreme Court with all of these
[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_03]: different issues it's like no this impacts
[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_03]: all of us and
[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_03]: our kids and nieces and nephews
[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_03]: and everybody else so
[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_03]: anyhow so
[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I want to ask
[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_03]: what is one thing you want to make sure
[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I know we just like jumped around a little bit but what's
[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_03]: one thing you want folks to
[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_03]: hear in your message
[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_03]: and you know make sure that they take away
[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_03]: from what we've talked about
[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_01]: the concept that everybody
[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_01]: has a leadership story I think
[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_01]: that we all have these big
[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_01]: inflection moments of our lives where we
[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_01]: are expressing our best
[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_01]: skills and our values and then the stories
[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_01]: we tell around those things become tools for
[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_01]: us to lead and to motivate and inspire
[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_01]: people towards goals and so I talk
[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot about how to discover that leadership
[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_01]: story for yourself and to define it for yourself
[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_01]: because most people you know
[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_01]: receive messages from society
[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_01]: through media education
[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_01]: institutions that they're not
[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_01]: good enough or enough of
[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_01]: something in some way and shouldn't
[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_01]: take up space shouldn't have a voice
[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_01]: shouldn't have decision-making authority
[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and I think when people flip that on its head
[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and realize that leadership is a practice of
[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_01]: story making our own goals and we all
[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_01]: have a leadership story of some sort that can
[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_01]: inspire and help others we can
[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_01]: move things forward I think we're seeing that right now
[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_01]: with the organizing that's happening at this collective
[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_01]: level between all these coalitions
[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_01]: people really feel like oh I have a story to
[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_01]: tell I have insights and skills I can share
[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_01]: we have a shared narrative we can create
[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_01]: together and I think it really
[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_01]: comes from you know people
[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_01]: understanding that leadership is practice
[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and that we need new models of it so that every
[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_01]: person feels empowered to make change
[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and to express their values in the
[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_01]: things that they make and the conversations they have
[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and the ways they manage their relationships
[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_01]: so if people listeners take anything away
[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_01]: it's that you have extreme
[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_01]: amounts of power and what you believe
[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_01]: about your own leadership capability and
[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_01]: how you express that in the stories you tell about
[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_01]: the things you care about and when you could do
[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_01]: that in an effective way you will build power
[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_01]: in ways you didn't expect and I think
[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_01]: more people they become storytellers of their
[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_01]: own lives and the ways that they create
[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_01]: you know visions and goals they're going
[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_01]: to create changes they didn't think were possible
[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Awesome Jackie anyway
[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I was just hoping for some reason
[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_02]: that you were going to I thought you were going to just say ditto
[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_03]: because I'm just going to say ditto
[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_03]: No, I have another one
[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well
[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that what I want people to
[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_02]: start wondering is that that narrative intelligence
[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and when they're going into these things leave
[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_02]: with curiosity and see where the story came
[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_02]: from and recognize that
[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_02]: someone I Katie knows I'm like
[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't see positive intent I'm always
[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_02]: assuming negative intent I'm working on it with
[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_02]: my therapist I'll get there pray for me
[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_02]: but
[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_02]: what I want people to think
[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_02]: about is understanding that this is a story
[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_02]: or a narrative that has a background
[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_02]: in history as well
[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and not learn to not take it
[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_02]: as
[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_02]: fat or as personal understanding
[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_02]: there's probably a story behind that so that you can
[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_02]: leave with more curiosity instead of
[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_02]: feeling like
[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_02]: it's necessarily better an attack on
[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_02]: on you especially
[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_02]: at work when we're all trying to reach
[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_02]: those same goals it's difficult
[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes
[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_01]: exactly
[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I think for me
[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_03]: it's the framing
[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_03]: of kind of that evolution or that
[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_03]: change
[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_03]: that we all need to have to be able to ask those
[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_03]: questions and be curious
[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_03]: and learn other people's stories and really
[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_03]: understand you know kind of exactly what
[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_03]: you all are saying but also that
[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_03]: mindset shift that every person has to
[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_03]: make of I have a story
[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_03]: but also the person sitting across from me has a
[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_03]: story and I want to learn
[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_03]: that as well it's not just
[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_03]: let me tell you what I know or what I have
[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_03]: experienced or what I have gone through
[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_03]: being able to really listen and take that
[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_03]: stuff in so I love
[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_03]: the idea though of you know changing
[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_03]: kind of the mindset changing
[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_03]: the behaviors through storytelling I just think
[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_03]: that's such a great concept
[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_03]: so Christina where can folks
[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_03]: find you
[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_01]: they can find me in Brooklyn
[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_01]: actually online you can find me
[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_01]: at the newquo.com
[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_01]: that's T-H-E-N-E-W
[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_01]: q-u-o.com
[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_01]: you can also find me on Instagram and LinkedIn
[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_01]: at just my full name Christina Blocken
[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and yeah I have lots of resources
[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_01]: courses you know things you
[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_01]: can sign up for to learn more about how to find your
[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_01]: leadership story and learn more about that
[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm just excited to see more
[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and more people seeing this work as
[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_01]: a lifetime work for better relationships
[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_01]: because that's really what the goal is it's how do we have
[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_01]: healthier relationships with people
[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_01]: particularly who are different from us and we all have a way
[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_01]: of being able to do that it doesn't take
[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_01]: someone who's you know a
[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_01]: super special like
[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_01]: famous person or celebrity are very
[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_01]: wealthy to do this work all of us can do it
[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and it just takes small steps and commitments
[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_01]: absolutely although
[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Christina I do have a lot of very
[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_03]: special people that I work with
[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm doing a different
[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_03]: way than what you mean
[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_03]: right
[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_03]: well Christina
[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_03]: thank you so much for joining us
[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_03]: this is Katie Van Horn
[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and this is Jackie Clayton
[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_03]: bye
[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_00]: do you love news about
[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_00]: LinkedIn indeed Google
[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and just about every other recruitment tech
[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_00]: company out there hell yeah
[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Chad I'm cheese we're
[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_00]: the Chad and cheese podcast all
[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_00]: the latest recruiting news and insights
[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_00]: are on our show dripping in
[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_00]: snark and attitude
[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_00]: subscribe today
[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_00]: wherever you listen to your podcasts
[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_00]: we out
Sponsors
