Empathy Is Not Soft. It's a Damn Strategy. (with Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller)

[00:00:06] Hey folks, welcome back to Talentless. If you're a new listener, welcome, welcome. And if you're one of our lovely listeners that have listened to us, I don't know why you're listening, but thank you. Thank you so much. We really appreciate it. And I'm excited for this one, everybody.

[00:00:25] Today, we are joined by Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller. I think we've talked adjacent to this conversation in the past, but I had to bring the guru on for her to really dive into it. So Melissa is a TEDx speaker. She's an international bestselling author of The Empathetic Leader. She has two doctorates, an MBA, a master in data analytics. I mean, we can just go on and on and on and on and on, right?

[00:00:51] But she's bringing the receipts and we're talking about leadership and empathy today. And we're going to have a little bit of twist on it about how it applies to recruiting and hiring a little bit. So we're going to be digging into that. So Dr. Melissa, it is so great to have you here. I'm going to let you intro yourself a little bit. Well, it's awesome to be here. I'm so excited. And, you know, especially in this age where there's so much change, rapid change going on in the hiring process and how we do work and all of this.

[00:01:20] I mean, I'm excited to be part of this conversation. So thank you for having me. You know, I think you're right. I think everybody's talking about this, but I don't think people even understand what empathy truly means in any respect. I think if they just think it's like feeling for somebody, which is not really what it is. Right.

[00:01:39] And I think as we see the layoffs happen, we see all of these other pieces, people going through not being able to find a job, people, you know, losing their job quickly, budgets going crazy, not going crazy. All of these things create all this pressure in the world that we live in right now. And so I really want to dig into what does leadership and empathy actually mean, especially in the recruiting and hiring space?

[00:02:05] And how do we apply it? So I'm going to start with the definition from you, Dr. Melissa. Like, what does it mean when we associate it with recruiting and hiring? So really what I talk about is being able to name their outcome. It's just another way of saying take their perspective. But as we're recruiting and we're hiring, we need to understand what the outcome is of the people that we are recruiting and hiring.

[00:02:29] If we want to have a good fit, if we want to actually have people who are going to come in and, you know, be loyal to us, we need to be loyal to them. It's a two way street. It always is, you know, and that sort of thing. I was reading an article the other day and it was talking about how the biggest problem right now in hiring recruiting. And you guys can chime in on this. This was just what the article said.

[00:02:49] But that it's not that AI is taking the jobs. It's that these employers don't necessarily want to hire in younger people who maybe don't know how to work remotely, who maybe haven't gotten the training. You know, for so long, we've been like, OK, university degree stamp of approval. Great. They're in. Well, now, you know, things have changed. And so that this is actually causing kind of a hiring freeze. But if you actually take the time to take their perspective, because that's what empathy is.

[00:03:18] It's not about feelings. It's about understanding the perspective of the other person. You actually have the opportunity to handpick the absolute best people for the job that are going to be the best in these positions. The difference is just that now it's up to the hiring managers and recruiters to be able to look at their perspective and say, OK, this person is going to be fantastic. They want the same thing. They are ambitious. They're maybe out of school. They're maybe green. But we can train them to be exactly who we need them to be.

[00:03:47] So I think empathy is more important now in recruiting and hiring than it ever has been. I was reading a very similar article about these kids coming out of college and like not being able to get a job or the pay is so low or all of this crazy stuff. And I think about to back to my college years, I'm like, if I spent four years in college and, you know, got this great degree and did all these things and I couldn't even get an interview, I would be livid.

[00:04:16] Right. Like, you know what I mean? I mean, I put in all that work and you and Ashley have way more education than I have. But if I put all that work into it and then I got out and no one wants to talk to me or they want to pay me $40,000 a year when I could go do that at McDonald's, I would be hot. You know? It is. It's annoying if you follow the recipe and don't get the meal you thought you were making.

[00:04:43] Because I can tell you that I was working at a library my whole way through my bachelor's and my master's. Graduated with my master's, went into the workforce and every single job offer that was even like a decent contender was actually less than I was making at the library. And I was like, this is disgusting. What is this place? Y'all told me if I went and did this, this is how you get the J-O-B. And it didn't work that way.

[00:05:10] And I mean, eventually you kind of wiggle yourself around and you either get knocked on your booty with expectations or you, you know, reacclimate whichever it may be. But now I can't fathom it being, you know, not because of the competition in the market and all these people having degrees. Like, it's not me competing against another student, another graduate, but me competing against this computer that will always have someone or something being its advocate. Because for the most part, it's for free. Yeah.

[00:05:39] So it's, you know, how can you compete? You can't. You know, I wonder, Dr. Melissa, why did you take up this as your, like, platform? Was it something that happened in your journey and you were like, everybody needs to know how to do this better and you realized that it was a systematic problem? Or was there something, because I heard you talk about command and control leadership. I've, you know, read the book and all of those things. And we talked, we had David Toretsky on and he said similar things about this type of work.

[00:06:09] What happened in your journey that got you to this point? So I was a classically trained musician. I played French horn. That's, I mean, I got my master's, my first master's from Yale. I did a doctorate. I'm like, I got to play with like Ray Charles and, you know, Steve Waller. Yeah, I got to do some. And it was cool things that I wouldn't have been able to do otherwise, you know, because my family, my dad was enlisted military. So it's not like these were people that were hanging around our house.

[00:06:36] Music gave me a lot of opportunities that I just wouldn't have had otherwise. And I mean, I loved what I was doing, but I'm kind of partial to food, shelter and clothing and like stability and benefits and things like that. So I got the first doctorate, went to teach at a university, was like, OK, horn professorship. Awesome. There's not a lot of them out there. I'll still get to do the playing. I was playing in the symphony. I was doing all this stuff. And within my very first term, I was assaulted by one of my colleagues.

[00:07:03] And then things got worse because as I went to the chair of my department, I was told if I was stirring up trouble, I might as well forget ever getting promoted. When I went to the dean, I was told if I didn't like it, I could just leave because there's obviously 800,000 horn professorships out there. So, you know, I'll just go find another one, that sort of thing. And so, I mean, long story short, in six years, I pretty much lost everything that I had worked for. COVID hit not long after that. And that was the end of that. So I had to figure out, you know, now what am I going to do?

[00:07:32] Because it's all I had ever done. It's not like I had, you know, a ton of anything behind me. So I was doing some consulting with my husband. And we were going into these small medical practices like pain clinics and surgery centers and just kind of revamping them from the bottom up. He's the medical guy. I took care of the HR. I took care of the change management. Of the people side of things.

[00:07:52] And we kept running into the same thing with these leaders that just didn't get it, didn't want to get it, didn't understand, and then couldn't understand why they had this revolving door of employees, whether it was their medical staff or their administrative staff or whatever. And I was just like, all right, wait a minute here. You know, I've seen the same pattern happen too many times. What is at the root of this? So because it was a path I knew, I started the doctorate on interdisciplinary leadership. And I'm like, well, let's start with the leadership angle and then see what we can figure out.

[00:08:22] And it just kind of dawned on me that there was this lack of empathy, that the ability to take perspective is what I thought was missing. So I'm like, all right, well, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this 110% and be the empathy lady. So that's what I did. And that's where I'm at. And the farther I go with it and the more I do with it, the more convinced I am of it and that we're actually losing it in our society. So that this is...

[00:09:15] No fluff, no templates just to say you have them. Just strategy, structure, and honest feedback that actually works. If you're tired of spinning, it might be time to do better. Head to dobetterconsulting.net. How I mentioned it about you is because I've always talked about empathy as a strategy and not just, you know, a thing that you say. And you really spoke to me in a lot of your posts. So, you know, the journey is interesting, though, to me, how you got there.

[00:09:43] It's very, very cool, first of all. Yeah. I think you're probably the coolest guest we've ever had. I'll just put that out in the ether. I agree with that. Thank you. This isn't interesting. But one thing that you said, and I think you're spot on, is like empathy in its own way is going away. And I think that that's for a few reasons. I think in order to have empathy, you have to have a type of emotional intelligence, which means that you have to be self-aware. You're going to have to be socially aware.

[00:10:11] And a lot of other things that just like the ingredients for this recipe, we're missing like a la carte. Like we don't even have it to build the building blocks of this sometimes. And it's just really interesting because like empathy to me is two things. Like one, it's the, like I said, the self and social awareness of like, do you observe and give space and recognize and have comprehension? And then the other one is like actual empathy in action. Like I feel like those are actually two different things because I've met people who are like empathetic people.

[00:10:41] They can comprehend what the person's saying all day. But whenever it comes to actually being inconvenienced for the sake of someone else, they're like unwilling. So it's like they have that self and social awareness, but they don't have social willingness. And so even if they do get those ingredients in the recipe, it does seem like sometimes they're still like, I'm not eating this cake, which is annoying. Yeah. Yeah. No, there's 43 different definitions of empathy.

[00:11:07] And they're all, I mean, so when you're talking about there's more than one aspect of it, there is. Which is why when I get the people that are like, oh, it's about feelings. It's like, no, that's one. That's one of, that is one 43rd of this. Right. Can you walk us through some of those? What would you say are maybe like the top three? Like, because to me, I've just noticed that it's feeling, which is really just comprehension. Am I allowing these people's mental burdens to also like me take them in as well?

[00:11:37] And not only, and I don't want to say mental burdens, what I mean by like, this isn't going to be the right way to say this. Because I think about it in two levels. There's the empathy of like just understanding what you're going through. But then there's the empathy of also like taking on that mental burden. Like it's a privilege to not have to think about X, Y, Z. But now I know that you're enduring it. Thus, I'm going to sacrifice that quote unquote privilege to live in this wavelength, even though I don't experience it. But now I mentally am so aware that I don't let it happen to anyone else. So anyway, okay, I'm going to stop talking because I'm excited to hear what you say. Okay, my bad.

[00:12:06] Well, no, I mean, this is just it. Empathy is such a broad and wide. People are like feelings and they put it in this teeny tiny little, you know, jewelry box. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. It's like broad. It's wide. It's deep. You name it. So, okay. So the three that I really dig in on for leadership, I do talk about emotional empathy because that's the one we're hardwired for, which is why it's the one people think of. It's iterative. It's fast. When you have babies in the ICU, when they're super young, if one starts crying, another will start crying. It's called emotional contagion.

[00:12:36] And it's kind of like a proto empathy. It's where it starts. So there's that one. The other one I talk about is cognitive empathy, which is I logically understand your situation, your feelings, where you're at. But I don't feel anything. And I talk to leaders about this one a lot because when you're dealing with large groups, sometimes it's hard to have emotional empathy. That's why, you know, I mean, it's a horrible quote. But Joseph Stalin said, a single death is a tragedy, but a million deaths is a statistic.

[00:13:04] It's just the way we work as humans. It's the way we're hardwired. The third one I actually talk about a lot is self-empathy because a lot of these leaders don't necessarily have it for themselves. And that's a problem because if you can't have it for yourself, how are you possibly going to have it for anybody else? You're just not. And there's some other ones. I mean, like motor empathy is when you're mirroring people. These are all in the end about taking the perspective of the other person.

[00:13:29] So motor empathy, you're mirroring facial expressions or body movements in an effort to try and understand their perspective. Some of thematic empathy is where you actually feel the pain that another is feeling in your body. So if you think about like ghost birth pains that like a father will have when a mother's in labor. So, you know, that's somatic. There's something called fantasy empathy, which is where you want the other person to feel or think or behave in a certain way. And sometimes you can even push so far as to think they actually do.

[00:13:59] You know, when you think about infatuations, sometimes that can happen. And there's an empathy with nature. You know, when you go out in nature and you just feel like this oneness with the universe kind of thing. There's that. What's that one called? I want to put that in like my bio. I don't know. I think it's actually called environmental empathy. I accept. Yeah. If it wasn't before, it is now. Okay. My new title. Yay. Yay. Tell us podcast. Renaming empathy. I like it. We'll make it. Now there's 44. Exactly.

[00:14:29] You talk about empathy as a lens, not a tool, which I'm interested to hear. Like, what does that actually mean in practice? I'm a hiring manager or a recruiter and I have to deliver a hard rejection to someone who's in their final round. Like, what does it actually look like in practice when we're talking about recruiting and hiring? Yeah.

[00:14:51] No, I absolutely do talk about it as a tool because I talk about strategic empathy and actually, yeah, using it strategically to be able to do leadership or, you know, whatever it is you need to do. So that is a prime example of a fantastic place to be able to name their outcome. You know, this person's gotten all the way through. We've gotten all the way to the end of this. You know, we've developed some kind of a relationship, maybe a high level one. But, you know, so what is it that they wanted out of this job? What is it that maybe I can even help them with?

[00:15:20] What can I do to allow me to move out of this with kindness? Kindness and niceness being two very different things. Niceness being a social lubricant and the way we interact. And usually it's the way we keep people comfortable. Kindness being having an actual desire for the best outcomes of all involved. You know, so they're different. And we should be treating these people with kindness and not niceness, you know. So, you know, if I'm talking to this person, I'm like, I'm really sorry we didn't choose you.

[00:15:50] But either and tell them the truth. We did not choose you because of anything that was wrong with you. We encourage you to keep going because what you're giving is the right stuff. It's just this didn't work out this time. Or maybe I can help you give you some information that will help you the next time. And I mean, of course, hiring, recruiting, you're dealing with there's so many things you can't say. You know, you've got to play within the lines. But to be able to kindly maybe give them the ammunition they need to be able to hit the next step better, you know.

[00:16:19] And I was just talking about can it experience rejection like emails. And I think that you're just like one of the best jobs I've ever seen. And I've seen some other really cool companies do it. But they actually give them resources at the end, like for the next thing. And I find that really appealing and empathetic in its own way that it, you know, like it didn't work out this time.

[00:16:47] But here are some resources to help you move forward. And that's to me, that's like that really is showing like we understand this was what you were looking forward to. But it doesn't work right now. But here are some resources to help fuel you. And they try to give them feedback. They even offer feedback sessions if you really want one. Like there, to me, that is an empathetic way to do rejection versus like, hey, dude, you just didn't make it. Yeah.

[00:17:17] You know. Or my favorite, hearing nothing at all. I just had that happen. And it was just like for real. I mean, I went all the way out to the East Coast. I gave you guys weeks. I gave you all and we're two and a half months later and I haven't heard a thing, which is it's safe to say I didn't get the job. But hey, you know what? Stay strong because it's been, I think, 14 years since I heard back from a job in Austin that I went and interviewed for. And I never heard back. And I'm still holding out.

[00:17:42] Like I'm waiting for the day that you're like, hey, girl, you remember in 20, whatever it was, 2011, whatever. So, hey, you keep that head held high. It might still be 20 years down the road. I figure if that's the way it is that I didn't want to play in their playground anyway. Yeah. Probably not. They self-identified for you. Yes. But no, I do agree with Des and two things that you all said. So one, 100% niceness is gift wrap. Like I cannot stand whenever people are like, well, they're nice. And it's like, well, that's cool.

[00:18:12] I'm so glad that this bag of poo poo came in this beautiful Jimmy Choo purse. And it's like, waddy-da. But the other thing that I think is important is kind of what Des mentioned. And this is the part of empathy where I think it's good to comprehend. I think it's good to feel. I think it's even better to act. And the reason why I feel that is because for you to comprehend and for you to feel are all for you. I'm worried about the person, the other person that actually needs whatever that empathy is.

[00:18:41] And so for me, in my mind, I, whenever I'm at least working with managers, focus not necessarily on probably what are the core components of this. But I focus more on what does that mean that we should do? And so and that kind of goes to Des's point is like sometimes and we've talked about this before whenever it came to salary negotiations. But sometimes just showing just a minor effort, any any small task of, hey, I was willing to endure. And I know I'm going to use the term inconvenience.

[00:19:10] And some of these things are not an inconvenience. They're in URL link, you know, whatever. But it's an extra step. It's an extra second. It's an extra whatever that was for someone else and not for me or not for anything else that I have going on. But for you. And so to me, actionable empathy is make it 45 is your willingness to endure those inconveniences for someone else's sake, knowing that those inconveniences will benefit you in no way, shape and or form.

[00:19:39] And to me, that's like true. If you want me to really look at leaders and evaluate and assess, that's what I'm looking at, because those are the kind ones that are there for the outcomes of everyone, because they're doing actions that show it, because they're doing things that bring them no return. Yeah. Compassionate empathy. That's exactly what it is, because empathy, if you're really going straight by the definition, there's no action. You're just in that feeling. You're in that moment. You're in that situation.

[00:20:08] So you have to employ empathy first to understand their perspective before you employ compassion, which is the action component, because if you don't, you end up with misplaced compassion. And that's when things can really go off the rails, because you think about like in the 80s when everybody was giving to all these, you know, food causes and we are the world and all of this stuff. Right. And we as a nation were very compassionate. We were sending money. We were sending supplies.

[00:20:33] But we didn't do the empathy first to understand the perspective, which is why it fell flat. It was very well intended, but we empathetically didn't take the perspective first. So when the compassion came into play, it didn't work. You've got to employ empathy first and then you've got compassionate empathy. I feel like that's our whole U.S. government system. I'm not going to lie. Everyone's like, shut down every program. And it's like, you only knew the reason why this program existed. And it's because we didn't educate.

[00:21:02] We didn't become self-aware. We didn't come socially aware with the need. Thus, we don't mind it being scrapped because we never needed it. Right. Thus, who cares? You know, so that's so interesting. Yeah. We threw money at it and called it compassion when we kind of missed the whole point. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to. Well, that was a great line. Because isn't that all of corporate? Like, let's think of all their DEI practices, DEI dissolved because nobody stood up to say this is why we're doing it.

[00:21:29] People just did it off the backs and on the graves of things that were happening in 2020. And don't get me wrong. I think the catalyst was great. It's necessary. But then we had a short, massive fall flat. And it was because other than that one catalyst, people weren't connecting why we're doing this. People weren't looking at the data. People weren't looking at the numbers and the actual social society as its actuals. We were doing it as to what we felt. Again, the real need statistically versus my need.

[00:21:59] Because if we actually employed empathy the way it should be and we reached out to people and we understood who they were and what their perspective was, we wouldn't even need DEI. Fair point. Actual fair point. Yeah. I mean, we would be doing the core elements of what it takes to actually care because you would know you would listen to their stories. You would have comprehension and understanding for the context.

[00:22:25] And we would never know what it's like to walk a day in those shoes, but we could at least support those who do and know why we're, you know what I'm saying? We kind of talk about candidate ghosting as being one of the places in TA that we're kind of missing that empathy factor. But like what other places do you see in TA? Because I could name a million, but I want your opinion first about where we're kind of missing that empathy factor in the process.

[00:22:54] I know you're probably going to say layoffs, probably terminations, but is there anything other pieces of the puzzle that you see that talent acquisition could be doing a better job of, I don't know, being empathetic is the right terminology, but could, you know, interject some empathy into their processes. And that would be great to know. So, I mean, aside from the big disastrous. Monsters, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And employee reviews.

[00:23:20] A lot of times you'll have people that are being nice and the reviews all look nice and they got five stars and everything is nice. But they're robbing them of the opportunity to get better and to do more and go farther. And they're also robbing themselves of the opportunity of really understanding who this person is and what they can do. You may have someone who's doing a job and they're doing a great job, but that's not the right spot for them. And if you could get them into a place where they can really excel, it's going to benefit everybody, you know?

[00:23:49] So actually having that attention to who your people are. And I understand when it's a big organization. I mean, things are done differently in different places and sometimes there's only so much you can do. But you'd be amazed at what you can do by taking five minutes and actually just trying to understand who is this person. I didn't even think of that one, but that is such a cool line to bring up because so many employee reviews are worth nothing. Right. Like, if they have them. Right. Like, why are you wasting my time? Right.

[00:24:18] You know, and I think if we really thought about that process and thought about the person we're actually speaking to and their journey and where they want to go and all of those pieces of the puzzle, that would change that whole system. And I agree with you. Like, you get to these big organizations and let's say you have 60 people on your team. Like, it gets harder and harder to do those performance reviews because there's so many of them. But I do think I agree with you. It takes five minutes.

[00:24:48] It doesn't take. I'd like to introduce the Boom Band Showcase. My name is Jeff Taylor. I'm the host of the show. I'm the founder of Monster.com and Boom Band. This is a podcast about job seekers. They're struggling right now. The ghosted jobs, the black hole. Everything is challenging. What we want to do is create real stories, get them talking about their superpowers, have you see what they're really like because you're going to want to hire them. Give me a sign that you love your life.

[00:25:20] Five hours. It takes five minutes to have a conversation in that review of a conversation, delivering the review to really, you know, show some empathy or provide some empathy to where they want to go, where they want to be and who they are as a person. You know, I think so many people work with people every day and have no idea who they are as people, you know, at all. Like their dreams, their hopes, their goals, all of those things.

[00:25:47] I think we just took a little bit of carve out time to do those. We'd be in such a better place culturally in an organization overall in so many ways. Layoffs, terminations. Right. Even if, even if you got laid off from a company because of financial reasons, if you thought the company really understood you and gave you a fair shake the entire way, maybe don't feel as horrible at the end when you get laid off. I mean, it's still always going to be tragic.

[00:26:16] But if you felt like you were supported and all of those things during that journey, it doesn't hit as hard when you leave and you're like, people didn't even know my name, you know, when I was there. So I just think it hits differently. Yeah, exactly. Well, and the thing is, is when empathy really works, it works in both directions. Right. So if I'm being laid off by an organization, I mean, yeah, it's not what I would want.

[00:26:42] But if I can actually, if I feel they've employed empathy for me, I'm going to be more likely to look at it and go, you know, it's a business. It's an organism. That's why it's called an organization. If this organism is not getting fed by means of money, it's going to die. So this is, they're doing what they have to do, not because they hate me, but because this is what the owners have to do. And I can respect that. I may not like it, but I can respect that. Yeah.

[00:27:07] And I can actually attest to this because a few years ago I had to be a part of working on some layoffs. And one of the things that we said, because we were a startup, we essentially, the forecasting for sales wasn't accurate. Everything got overhired and we had to do layoffs. And we were like, how do we do this in a way that, because we asked all these people to come here. We asked all these people to stop what they were doing and join us. And now we can't make it work for them.

[00:27:35] And so, and I remember whenever we were talking to our executives, there were three things that we went out of our way to do. We got all of their resumes, like everything that we could from them if they wanted it. And we helped them on their job search. Like they kept me employed to ensure that I could help those people on their job search. So if they needed help writing their resume, like anything like that. We also had all the executive leaders go on to their LinkedIn and write them recommendations, especially if they worked with them directly, things like that.

[00:28:04] All of these things, again, micro inconveniences, but they're worth it because we actually had people on the calls whenever we're telling them, hey, we're not going to be able to do this. But these are some things we also can't afford a third party to come out and help you, but we're going to do X, Y, Z, whatever we can do. And there were so many people that were just like, thank you. Like, thank you so much. I will come right back. Like even in the heat of the moment, we're like so thankful and we're like, this was the best.

[00:28:31] So it was something that was really, I learned a lot because from the jump of the inception of that problem, but it was something to where, again, all it is, is these micro efforts, these, these, this consolidation of small inconveniences that you're putting forth towards other people that to me, in my mind, are the mathematical equation for like, what is empathy in my head? I think, because I feel like a lot of people, again, it's the niceness.

[00:29:00] Like there are people who are nice to me all day. Your behavior say something way different. And the gaslight is a juice I can only drink for so long. So, uh. Yes. We talk about, because I think this too, I think like with anything, things can get weaponized, you know? So I think empathy can kind of be weaponized as well. Am I right or wrong? Oh yeah. There's such a thing as dark empathy. It's a thing. Tell us this one. This is like number 36, I feel. Okay. Tell us this one. Tell us this one. There's so many. That's so cool.

[00:29:30] I mean, it's cool that you know them all. You're like a empathy library. I love this too. Well, I don't know that I could recite them if you said do 43, go. I don't know that I could. But as you're talking about. I feel better than you think. Learn that one. Yeah. Yeah. So if you think of people who have no empathy at all, diagnosably, categorically, this is who they are. They are the dark triad. And what they are, are your psychopaths, sociopaths, Machiavellians, and narcissists. I mean, we're not talking about the way that's thrown around society.

[00:29:58] We're talking DSM-5, you know, manual of mental illness. This is who they are. And part of what makes them that way is that they have no empathy. None. They just, they don't, they don't know, they don't care, you know, and usually they really don't care. They're happy being who they are. So the thing is, though, is like psychopaths in particular are very, very smart. And you see them in larger concentrations, in leadership positions, as surgeons, in the government, that sort of thing.

[00:30:27] So what they actually employ is called dark empathy. And what that is, it's kind of a twisted means of cognitive empathy. They learn to understand the perspective of the other person so that they can manipulate them. So that's where you can tell the difference. If you're employing cognitive empathy, you know, I understand what you feel, what you think, where you're at. I just don't feel anything. But it's for the best outcomes. You know, you're approaching it with kindness. It's empathy. If you're using it to manipulate and control that other person, it's dark empathy. I had an old boss like that.

[00:30:57] I'm not even going to lie. Like as you, whenever you said dark empathy, it was the first person that came to my head and I was like, I'm going to hear this out. I think we all know somebody like that, right? Like you're like, oh, that person. But it's like, it's so strategic. It's so specifically tailored. And you know something? And I don't know why I'm thinking about this right now. But actually I do. It's because Melissa just said it. I'm sorry. But it's something to where, and this is how I started learning to delineate.

[00:31:26] That individual always wanted me to be more upset at the messenger who made me aware of their issues versus their issues. And I don't know why I'm about to share this right now, but I'm going to. So this individual was manager of mine at one point in time. And basically I found out for the past four years I had been being underpaid by $40,000. And so, yeah, I know, right? And this person brought me, like did a lot of things with this company, brought me to it, followed them to different places. And I was like, wow.

[00:31:55] So we just hired a homie who's brand new and they're starting, you know, 40 something above me. How does this work? And you know what they said to me? They said, the person who told you that is not your friend. And I remember looking up at that individual and saying, well, what is the person who did it to me then? And I remember just sitting there for a minute and realizing all these things that had happened throughout these years, all these times where I was like, this person is a individual that cares about my X, Y, Z.

[00:32:23] No, they cared about knowing where I wanted to get to next so they could gatekeep it, hold it where they needed, use it strategically and then go from there. And so in a weird way, it also taught me about the power dynamic of leadership. And it taught me about how there are just certain types of power structures to where you can be able to manipulate people like a chessboard. And that individual played house of cards.

[00:32:52] So I'm just saying this to say, if you're ever looking out for someone with dark empathy, what you're looking for is, are they trying to tell you that the people who are telling you what this person's doing are the bad people? And also, is it something to where, again, they're making decisions that actually aren't to benefit everyone else except for them. It's actually to only benefit them. It just has that nice wrapping paper around it, that Jimmy Choo bag. It's still papoo. Yep. Yep. That's absolutely right. I know that you've talked, maybe it's you that's talked, I think you've talked about

[00:33:22] emotional bank accounts before and like how people, well, how people like, and I don't know where I heard this before, but it actually spoke to me. It's like the deposits and withdraws leaders make to that emotional bank account when they're trying to run their teams. And I thought about this when we were preparing for this and I thought like, if empathy is not one of those deposits, like you already started from a really bad place. It should be like the first one, you know, it should be the first one you're depositing

[00:33:50] in there and withdrawing some of the negative stuff you do. Cause I talk about this all the time in leadership. Like if you're not self-aware, if you don't have self-empathy, if you don't have all these things and you don't start there, you, I don't know how you become a good leader, right? It's super difficult to do that from a place where you don't have empathy for your team. And I think that's why so many teams fail. I've seen so many leaders fail, but I also think that a lot of these leaders, especially

[00:34:19] mid-level managers aren't taught any of this. Right. None at all. Yes. Right. And to be honest, if I could just add real quick, we're not even taught as an IC how to appreciate this. And what I mean by that specifically is I am a leader that genuinely believes candor is care. I mean, a hundred percent with like, I will be open kimono with you nonstop. If you want transparency, I'll give you a glass bowl, honey. Like that is who I am.

[00:34:47] But we are now at least some places where the employees are not ready for that type of candor. They may say all the time, I want growth. I want development. I want this. But they were not brought up in an environment where actual candor was care. They never had leaders that when being honest with them, it was for their sole growth, not anything to do with the leader.

[00:35:11] And so I've even had an instance where I was being genuinely candid, true candor with this individual heads up on feedback, headed your way, blah, blah, blah. And they lost it like completely for a while to where I had to have a learning experience of empathy in the fact of who wants candor and who doesn't and how I didn't probably look

[00:35:37] into as deeply as I should have because they said, I want to hear. I want to know. I need I need that transparency. I need to hear it. And hey, me even taking some accountability, maybe it was the way it was presented. Maybe it was how I was so chop shop like this was this, that was that, that was that. This is the feedback. And, you know, but it is something to where even as we talk about leaders, I think in the

[00:36:01] IC realm, we haven't even taught you how to absorb candor to where you definitely don't know how to give it by the time that you're a leader because it's not an actual practice, even whenever you're in IC. I don't know. That's just my personal recentie. But so, yeah. Dr. Melissa, I'm assuming you teach this other places. Like when you go into organizations, what does that training look like for managers and leaders?

[00:36:30] What is like the agenda for the day? Like I'm interested to hear that. So usually when I'm teaching this, I mean, I will go in and I'll do, you know, half day or full day workshops. And really what I base it off of is my book. My book's 10 chapters and like first two, it's what empathy is, what it isn't and how this works. Chapters three and four, how do you employ it? How do you make it actionable? How do you make it compassionate? And we just we just go right down the line because I want them to know these are the four

[00:36:59] steps to self-empathy. These are the five R's to be able to, you know, instill these as habits and not have 30 day washout because that's that's what happens. Right. And so I try very hard to keep it, you know, very structured. There's worksheets. We use the Johari window, which, you know, talks about what I know, what I don't know, what other people know about me, what other people don't know about me. It's fantastic for teams because if you want to actually get the perspective of other people

[00:37:27] and have them give you the perspective of what they have on you, it's bar none the best. Empathy mapping, which was originally a sales tool, but again, works great for understanding what is the perspective of the other person? What are the outcomes that they want? You know, and then we talk about now, how do you implement this? Because it's one thing to give people tools. It's another to give it to them in a way that they're going to be able to keep using them. Because, you know, practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent.

[00:37:54] And that means you have to practice, but you have to do it right so you don't instill bad habits. I like that. I like that. What would you say? So whenever you say you have to do it right, if there was like a three minute synopsis, people are listening to this and it's like, I want to walk away after this episode and improve on my empathy. What would be like the three minute spiel, like the micro drop learning you would give to them? Absolutely certain. You're using empathy and not sympathy.

[00:38:20] So empathy is when you understand the point of view of the other person through their eyes. Empathy is what allows you to step out of my bubble and into theirs. Sympathy is when you see whatever their perspective is through your own eyes. So that means you're dragging all of your baggage along with you. And because you're comparing two things, your experience with their experience, you end up with judgment. Not because you're a bad person, but because it's what we as humans do. And empathy and judgment cannot exist in the same space ever.

[00:38:48] Whether it's empathy or self-empathy, you can't do it. So make sure when you're looking at their situation, you're not having thoughts like, oh, I'm so glad that wasn't me. Or let me tell you what it was like when this happened to me. You know, you're thinking of the answer instead of listening. Make sure you are in their bubble so that you're actually practicing empathy. Oh, that was so good. No, that was super good. That was really good. And hey, maybe that's what I did as a manager.

[00:39:15] Whenever they were saying, I was like, okay, they want candor like I want candor. And maybe I was thinking through my own lens. Yeah. So hey, let's use our real life examples here. All right. I have to ask you this last question because I can't get away from any subject without talking about AI a little bit. Just the way in the world. Yeah. Is there, is AI a friend to empathy, empathetic leadership? Is it not a friend?

[00:39:42] How should we be using it in this, you know, in an empathetic way? Like, I don't know if there's an answer to that, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. I think of AI as being neutral because it's a tool and you, just like any tool, you can use a hammer to pound in a nail or you can use a hammer to bludgeon your own hand. You know, I mean, it's how you use it. Now, the thing with AI is it cannot take other people's perspectives. So it does not have empathy. I don't care what the guy on Reddit says.

[00:40:12] It's not there. It doesn't. It can't understand that. You know what I mean? Some of these people, I was on a podcast and I was like, it does so have empathy. And I'm like, no, sorry. What did it, if it, okay. If we had to pick one out of the 43, would it be the, is it the semantic where it copies and mimics? Cause I feel like it does the mimic, like it'll mimic your tone, but it's not real. It's synthetic empathy. Make it 46. Synthetic empathy. We are adding so much to the DSM-5 right now. It's unreal. Okay. Let's continue.

[00:40:42] Well, and I think, I mean, I think that raises a fantastic point. Because people are turning to AI because they think it shows them empathy better than the people around them. So I think that says a lot more about the people around them than it does AI. It says, it says really bad things about the human race. It's for everybody to know that. Right. And the recipient. Like you should really look yourself in the mirror, you know? And I don't think we're doing a lot of that right now.

[00:41:07] Like I named my AI and my mom like hates it so much. She hates that I named it. Really? It's not a person. I'm like, I know it's not a person. I don't know. It's just easier for me to type like I'm talking to somebody, but I know it's not a person, but she hates that I even named it. She thinks it's freaky. But I think your association with your AI has to be different. I mean, it's why kids commit suicide off the AI and stuff. Right?

[00:41:36] Like it thinks it's feeling something or giving them real advice, which is, you know, it's a sad part of the non-regulation of AI at this point. But I was interested to hear your thoughts. That was interesting. It was really, really important to note. And I'm going to leave that as our last question. I'm going, yeah. I know. I know we could talk to her. No, well, hold on. Because usually talent outside the box is like a little psychological thing.

[00:42:05] But I feel like, okay, because I already asked Dr. Melissa like a toss away one and she did so good. Can we do it? Yes. You do whatever you want with talent outside the box. Because I was going to say, what would you say is like the number one thing a leader could do today to start strengthening their empathetic tool? Is it listening? Is it understanding? Is it curiosity? Like where? And maybe I just named the Trinity. I don't know. We're about to find out. Melissa, tell us everything. Oh my goodness. Yeah.

[00:42:36] Self-empathy. Yeah. That's right. You talked about that. Because a lot of these leaders get into their positions because they've done the biggest contracts. They have the highest paying clients. They, you know, they're gunners in their craft. But then they walk into these leadership positions and they're not trained. They're not taught. And a lot of them suffer from imposter syndrome because it's like, I have no idea what to do. And here I am. So they fall into the command and control style leadership.

[00:43:02] We're going to do it this way because this is how it's always done because it's always been done this way. And they don't stop to employ that self-empathy and say, you know, I'm in over my head right now. I need to have compassion for myself and I need to figure this out because if I can't have empathy for me and compassion for me, I'm not going to have it for my people because I'm going to drive them just as hard as I drive myself. And that's why there's like a 35% burnout rate in leadership and substance abuse and families

[00:43:31] breaking up and burnout. And I mean, it's just, you know, it's because charity starts at home. And so they need to start with the self-empathy and then allow it to spread out. Well, first of all, I encourage everybody to read the book. I've read it. It's great. And there is a really good part about the self-empathy part. And I'm going to be honest, I thought I was self-empathic, but I'm not. So me either. I'm not at all.

[00:43:57] And it's probably why I burn out every year at the end of the year, right? It's also why I do a lot of other weird things. So I think it's something I'm working on, but it definitely never even occurred to me that was part of empathy, right? Being self-empathetic. I mean, it just, I don't know. I thought it was always about other people. And so I encourage people to really read the book and really get into it because I think if you learn to do that, you will understand it that much better.

[00:44:26] It's really important. Speaking of the book, Dr. Melissa, I would love for you to tell people where they can find you, what the book is, all the things you're doing and maybe doing in the future. Yes. So the book is called The Empathic Leader, How EQ via Empathy Transforms Leadership for Better Profit, Productivity, and Innovation. Because this comes down to the bottom line. This isn't just some fluffy puppies and rainbows thing. It figures in on the balance sheet. So, and you can get it at Amazon.

[00:44:55] And I also have an Audible version, which I read myself, which I'm pretty excited about. You won it yourself. That's the one I won. It's Audible. Is it Audible? Okay. Literally. How was that experience? You know, there's a learning curve, right? And if I had to do it all over again, there are some things I would definitely do different. But I think for the first time, right? Self-empathy. Okay, little bunny. You did okay for the first time.

[00:45:24] You know, I think it went pretty well. And I'm excited with the product that I came up with. And next time I'll do it completely differently. Congratulations, by the way. Both of those things are huge accomplishments. I also know you do a podcast with Chasen and do some other things as well, right? And so I just want everybody to be on the look for Dr. Melissa. Follow her on LinkedIn. She does a lot of cool things in the space, in the nonprofit space, and just all of the spaces that you could be in.

[00:45:52] She's there and doing this work, which I believe is so important. If I could redo the name of this show, it would probably be something. Oh, what would it be? I don't know. It would be something about empathy and leadership and how that fuels into recruiting and hiring and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't know. It would be something like that because I do believe that people don't think about this enough. We see it in post and we see it, but I think it's so, you know, it's just not real. You know? Yeah. It's a hot word.

[00:46:21] Yeah, it's a hot, cool word right now, but I don't think people really understand the true meaning of it. So I encourage people to really, really look out and really dig deep into this because it's more than you think it is. I mean, there's 43 types of empathy, people. And after this episode 46, honey, we got our synthetic empathy. We got our nature empathy. We got all these empathies. This was awesome. Thank you so much.

[00:46:49] Well, I want to thank you so much for being on the show. I feel like I should have you back again soon because I don't think we got to dig in deep but not to really- I have so many questions about self-empathy. I think we can go with you once a week. So this was, it was just, it was just great. So everybody, please listen to the Talent List podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Spotify, Apple Podcasts, iHeartRadio. You know the deal.

[00:47:16] Go to Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky, LinkedIn, all of the places you can find us and our big cartoon heads. And also join our Discord community and sign up for our newsletter at talentless.beehive.newsletter. Thank you so much for everybody for listening and we will see you next time. Bye! Bye! Bye! Bye!