017: Transforming your Human Resources function by doing HR Like a Boss!

[00:01:05] 017:" David Noe with SpeakEasy HR presented by Payroll Partners. It is episode 17 of this podcast. It's December. Thanksgiving has come and gone, and I've got a great guest with a great topic in HR, and he's got a lot to go through. John Bernanovich, HR Like a Boss. Welcome on, John. How are you today?

[00:01:31] David doing great. Thank you so much for having me and hello to all the listeners. Episode 17 reminds me of the Browns great Brian Seip. I have his vintage jersey and tonight we're playing the Denver Broncos. I got that to look forward to in about five hours. Hopefully it's not another agonizing loss.

[00:01:52] David Noe 017:"Yeah. No, you went to Kent State, played golf, which we can talk golf all day, I'm sure, as we can with HR, but are you a Buckeyes fan or just a Browns fan?

[00:02:03] David Noe 017:"We live in the state of Ohio. Don't you kind of have to sort of be a Buckeyes fan? I think it goes with the territory. I do not live and die by the Buckeyes like a lot of people do. Don't hold that against me for everyone out there that's listening. But I know that was an agonizing game to lose, especially when it was a game.

[00:02:20] David Noe 017:"We're not a Buckeyes fan, especially being favored by so much. In my honest opinion, I think it means too much to the head coach and to the players and to the community. Don't take that the wrong way because I know Buckeye Nation has a way about it. But whenever you try to do something so hard and make it that important, it ends up taking all the fun out of it. And it seemed like the Buckeyes were not having fun while the Wolverines were. Who knows?

[00:02:44] David Yeah, and I actually grew up in Michigan. So I enjoyed the game. I've enjoyed the last few years and it was not expected at all. But, you know, sometimes that happens and it's a huge rivalry. And so we won't talk about that anymore for people who are watching who are Buckeye fans.

[00:03:05] David Noe 017:"We are live on LinkedIn and YouTube. So if you want to drop a question or comment in the chat section, please do that. We'll get to any questions that come through that I feel like will be great to add into the mix of questions that I've got.

[00:03:21] David So obviously it's cold out. We can't play too much golf right now, but hopefully you've been able to get out and enjoy golf still, John, as you did play back in college. So what's your handicap these days?

[00:03:37] David Technically, I'm a plus one handicap. And I am. I do have a couple trips scheduled for this winter to get down south a couple times in Florida, one time to South Carolina. I last played about two weeks ago.

[00:03:52] David And it was pretty delightful. We got one of those good end of season warm days, but then all of a sudden it turned 20 degrees and really cold. And I've moved indoors. I have a local gym that's not too far away that has some of those cool golf simulators with the track man and all the data.

[00:04:12] David It feels as close as you can get to playing real golf, but it's clearly not the same. I'm a terrible sim chipper, I call it. I just can't gauge the chipping on the simulator, which is, I guess, okay.

[00:04:25] David Yeah. Yeah. I mean, growing up in Michigan and it being cold for longer than it is down in Kentucky where I'm at, I went into these bubbles and hit golf balls in these bubbles in Michigan.

[00:04:40] David And it was much different back, you know, growing up now these kids have simulators and they got things in their house and it's just so different. But my kids are getting older. My oldest is a freshman in high school, played on the golf team this fall. So definitely enjoying these years as they're trying to beat me and they're close.

[00:05:02] David I will never forget when I beat my dad for the first time. I'm not sure if he was more proud or if I was. And then having beat my brother, who's a very capable golfer. He's also a plus handicap best, best amateur senior amateur golfer in the Buffalo district.

[00:05:18] David That was a monumental day in my life. That was many, many years ago. And then was blessed to play in high school, all state golfer, and also then got a scholarship and was an academic all American at Kent State.

[00:05:31] David I only share that because it's provided me an opportunity to do some really cool things in my life around golf.

[00:05:39] David And I did not realize in the midst of it, how much golf prepared me for the competitiveness of business and entrepreneurship and all the experiences that you have, all that individual pressure that you have performing at a high level in a very unique and difficult game.

[00:06:01] David It's to me, the closest parallel to business that you can have in sports. I think football, you can, we were just talking about that earlier, could also be in that same light, but it changed my life. It's who I am. It's part of what I do. And it's, I just love it. And people find it interesting. I, I'm the most relaxed in my life when I'm on the golf course, playing golf, chasing that white ball around. And I've talked to many people that it's the bane of their existence.

[00:06:30] David They do it once or twice a year and they get aggravated. They throw clubs, they break clubs. And it's taught me so much, taught me about emotional intelligence, taught me about harmonizing my feelings. I mean, it's really interesting when you hit a bad shot, the emotions that you instinctively feel.

[00:06:47] David Yeah.

[00:06:47] David And ultimately that bad shot can turn into another bad shot and do another bad shot if you don't find a way to compartmentalize it. And I'm big on this idea of getting to neutral, especially when you're frustrated.

[00:07:01] David Because you can't go from, Hey, I'm mad and upset. And I suck at golf to, Oh, one minute later, I'm great at golf. And this is awesome. And I love it. Let's just get somewhere. I mean, Trevor, no, I did a bunch of work on that work with Russell Wilson and university of Alabama and some really great work on getting a neutral, which applies in life and in business. And that's, that's what I love the most about the game.

[00:07:26] David And then on top of that, I have, let's say a social network of 25 friends and 24 out of 25 are golfers. And we met together through golf, have that golfers get golfers. And for all the non-golfers listening, they're like, get to the HR stuff. I don't want to talk about the golf.

[00:07:46] David What kind of podcast is this? Is this golf or what? No, no, that's great. Now I, I can definitely relate to you playing golf growing up, playing in college and playing still.

[00:07:55] Obviously every week there's golf outings and there's different ways to network with golf and business. So great sport, something you can play year round most of the time and play to your old and gray and, you know, can barely walk. So, but yeah, let's, let's get to it a little bit.

[00:08:12] We have the envelope icebreaker question game coming up that we can hopefully learn a little bit more about you, John, but let me bring this up if it will work.

[00:08:23] Just a couple of questions.

[00:08:27] In the world of payroll, say no more to hotlines and hold times.

[00:08:50] So John, are you ready for the envelope icebreaker question game?

[00:08:55] Is anybody ever really ready? But I better be. Yes.

[00:09:00] Let's see if this graphic will work for me. The first one works. Oh, there we go.

[00:09:06] I'm so sophisticated, David. I mean, this is out of the stuff that makes the HR like a boss podcast.

[00:09:10] Looks like a, I don't even know what, like we're doing in our basement on a shoestring bucket.

[00:09:15] You got all these cool graphics and these logos and stuff.

[00:09:19] Yes.

[00:09:19] It's probably a lot for you to manage that over there right now. Are you stressed? Are you, are you, are you used to this episode 17?

[00:09:25] You got it all figured out. Probably episode one. I got to watch back and see how all that went.

[00:09:30] Yeah. It's a little different than this one. So you can go back and watch that one with the great John Baldino.

[00:09:37] Anyway, I've got 15 envelopes, John, one through 15. Do you have a favorite number you want to throw in out there to start? See what we can get.

[00:09:47] All right. Well, 17 isn't the number we already made reference to Brian's site, but here's what I'll do.

[00:09:52] I'll start off with my favorite number, which is the number four.

[00:09:55] Number four. Okay. Number four. Here we go. Drum roll. What is your absolute dream job?

[00:10:06] Oh God. Absolute dream job.

[00:10:11] All right. Well, I would love to be a professional golfer. I wouldn't lie to you realistically.

[00:10:16] And this is going to sound super corny, David. I know it probably is, but I feel like I'm doing my dream job.

[00:10:22] I've always dreamt of being an entrepreneur after I realized I couldn't be a professional golfer, which that had a variety of ins and outs in my life.

[00:10:32] Times where I thought I could be a professional golfer and times where I thought I couldn't.

[00:10:36] Those happened basically from the age of 14 to 21, 22.

[00:10:41] But as I thought of a backup plan, it was, I wanted to own my own business.

[00:10:45] And the rationale behind that's pretty simple in my mind back then.

[00:10:49] I used to play a lot of golf, as you could probably imagine to be averagely good at golf.

[00:10:55] You got to do it often. And then I would be at a country club or a golf course in the middle of the day on a Tuesday in the summer.

[00:11:04] And there's these grown men and women that are there.

[00:11:07] And I'm this little schmuck kid that's could beat most of them.

[00:11:12] And they knew who I was through my dad or my parents.

[00:11:15] I would ask them a few questions, maybe a little different than 14 and 15 year olds or other 14 and 15 year olds.

[00:11:22] And inevitably about eight out of 10 of them said, I own my own business.

[00:11:27] And they were in their mid fifties at the time I was 14 or 15.

[00:11:30] And my logical brain said to me, okay, I see they drive a nice car.

[00:11:36] They belong to a club or play golf.

[00:11:39] They seem to have free time.

[00:11:41] That's what I want to do.

[00:11:42] I want all those things.

[00:11:44] So I want to be a business owner.

[00:11:45] Now, the issue I didn't realize is that it took them 30 years to build their business.

[00:11:50] And they were bearing the fruit of their labors while playing golf in their mid forties, mid fifties and mid sixties.

[00:11:58] And I realized that as I got into entrepreneurship and the first year of my life, I worked probably 90 hours a week, bounding and starting Willery and trying to make it something out of nothing.

[00:12:13] And as a result of that, I wake up every day.

[00:12:16] I'm super blessed.

[00:12:17] I will say there are rare occasions, probably two, three days out of the year where I don't want to go to work.

[00:12:24] And those are traditionally based upon hyper stressful situations that are going on at work.

[00:12:31] Or maybe I'm just not feeling up to myself in, in those regards.

[00:12:35] But 99% of the time I wake up ready to go and feel blessed to lead our, our firm and do something that I love every single day.

[00:12:44] Yeah.

[00:12:45] Yeah.

[00:12:46] I mean, really dream jobs come down to, I think for anybody playing golf professionally, running a business, having that passion every day is going to be a challenge.

[00:12:55] Every day is not going to be perfect, but having, having a dream job, one that you get up, like you said, and look forward to going to, you don't have to run your own business.

[00:13:03] You can be working with a team and just enjoy that job.

[00:13:07] And hopefully people out there watching that might have a dream of owning their own business one day can, can learn from what they take away from this conversation.

[00:13:16] That is more about the HR, like a boss book that is out and you can purchase it, which I know there's some deals going with black or a cyber money, you know, cyber Monday.

[00:13:27] So let's, you know, John, for, for people that are not familiar with your work, this is, this is a project that you have now had out for a while.

[00:13:39] So take us back to the first kind of concept behind this, which this is your top shelf topic, you know, transforming your human resource function by doing HR like a boss, which falls in with your job, with your work, with your book.

[00:13:55] And that it is, you know, a, a public, a published book by Sherm.

[00:13:59] So you've got HR professionals all over the world, all over the country that are looking at this and saying, you know, probably a lot of questions I have as I've gone through it.

[00:14:09] You know, what inspired you to do this back when this was an idea in your head?

[00:14:14] Like, oh, I'm going to make this, this book, you know?

[00:14:18] Well, the book came as a result of a presentation that I put together and first did at Kent State University back in 2018.

[00:14:25] So go flashes. I was invited by Diane D. Robertis, who's still a friend of mine.

[00:14:30] She was heading up part of their business school and had a focus in human resources.

[00:14:35] And she had asked me to come out and do a presentation.

[00:14:39] It was extra credit. I've told this story a few times to juniors and seniors.

[00:14:43] And it was on a Tuesday or Thursday night, I think Thursday night at 7 p.m.

[00:14:47] Like thinking to myself, who in the world, there's no way when I was in college, I would go to an extra credit session.

[00:14:52] I wasn't expecting anyone to be there. And we had an auditorium filled with about 170 students.

[00:14:58] Wow.

[00:14:59] And Dr. Diane D. Robertis, she started off the presentation with students.

[00:15:04] You understand how this works. You only get the extra credit if you stay awake and you stay for the entire session.

[00:15:10] And I went from being casually just comfortable with my surroundings to, oh, my gosh, what a heightened level of responsibility to keep 18, 20, 21-year-old college students entertained for the next 45 minutes so they wouldn't fall asleep and that they wouldn't leave.

[00:15:28] And lo and behold, going through the concepts of the presentation, we did connect with that audience.

[00:15:35] And there were a lot of engagement and questions.

[00:15:38] I watched very closely for anyone to fall asleep so I could nudge them and they could get extra credit.

[00:15:43] And then I did get a number of questions and follow up.

[00:15:46] And afterwards was pretty cool.

[00:15:48] Dr. Diane D. Robertis and her family, they own Ray's Place.

[00:15:52] Shout out to Ray's Place.

[00:15:54] It's a cornerstone at Kent.

[00:15:55] If you've not been there, make sure to check it out.

[00:15:57] I went there with some of the over-aged, over-21-year-old college students to celebrate.

[00:16:03] But we took that.

[00:16:05] I did that presentation there because I had applied to speak at the Northern Ohio HR Conference on that same topic.

[00:16:12] And I thought it was a perfect chance for me to practice the content.

[00:16:16] And I did that same presentation at NORC.

[00:16:19] And I share this story in the book that here I am in front of 150 concurrent session attendees.

[00:16:27] We had the most people attending our concurrent session.

[00:16:30] They actually had to close down the entry because people were just intrigued by the title.

[00:16:35] And my second slide after the intro of HR Like a Boss and my title is I Hate HR.

[00:16:40] And I wanted to have this conversation with the Human Resource Profession about, well, why do people that aren't in HR, why do they not like you?

[00:16:48] And honestly, it was one of the most life-changing 20 minutes of my professional career because I had people standing up, shouting out their answers with tremendous amount of emotions and feelings about them.

[00:17:04] You're a company suit or you only care about the organization or I hate you because you fired me or I was part of a riff.

[00:17:12] I mean, all of these emotions, all of them.

[00:17:14] And I just struck a chord and it became pretty obvious to me.

[00:17:18] And then regretfully fast forward the tape about it.

[00:17:21] A few months later, my mom passed away from breast cancer.

[00:17:24] My dad then 55 weeks to the day of my mom's passing.

[00:17:29] He left this earth due to pancreatic cancer.

[00:17:32] And I found myself in this very unique place.

[00:17:34] Some may call it a midlife crisis.

[00:17:36] And I did not jet dye my hair black or I didn't buy a T-top convertible car, which is totally cool if that's your thing, if that's what you want to do when you get to that age.

[00:17:47] I just decided to start writing.

[00:17:50] And I started working on another book called I've Got It All Wrong.

[00:17:54] It was basically a story about what it's like to own a small business and the things that I anticipated it would be versus what it actually was,

[00:18:02] which goes back to nice cars and lots of money and playing lots of golf.

[00:18:06] That's not what initially being an entrepreneur is because you got to work your tail off and do all that you can to create a brand and awareness and provide great service.

[00:18:16] Anyway, my marketing director, Bridget Klein at the time, she was asking me how the book was going.

[00:18:22] And I told her I haven't gotten past the title page.

[00:18:25] And she said, hey, just as a suggestion, you have the outline in the presentation for HR Like a Boss.

[00:18:33] And you've got the table of contents and you've got the five main pillars of thinking differently, being different, taking action, making an impact and whatnot.

[00:18:43] And she said, I think it'd be easier for you to write.

[00:18:46] And all I heard her say would be easier.

[00:18:47] That's all I heard her say.

[00:18:48] And I pivoted from my one book idea to writing HR Like a Boss.

[00:18:53] And at the same time, I started listening to Atomic Habits, which is a profoundly changing book that I read.

[00:19:01] All kudos to James Clear and the work that he did just about breaking down your daily wins to this 1% improvement and pairing an existing habit with a new habit.

[00:19:13] See, I've never written at the time anything more than a four-paragraph email.

[00:19:18] And I started on the weekends writing because on the weekends I had John time.

[00:19:23] This is back when my kids were a little bit younger and they would sleep in.

[00:19:27] And I would get up in the mornings on the weekend and I would just start writing.

[00:19:31] And I told myself, you can do 1,000 words a weekend.

[00:19:35] It's 500 words a day.

[00:19:36] You can do 1,000 words a weekend.

[00:19:38] If you do that for a year, you'll have a legitimate manuscript.

[00:19:41] And along the way, I was lucky to talk to Steve Brown, who's from down in your area.

[00:19:47] And he gave me some great suggestions on what he learned from writing his several books that he did.

[00:19:54] And then he was kind enough to introduce me to the editor and publisher at SHRM.

[00:19:59] And within five minutes of the conversation with Matt Davis from SHRM, he was interested in the concept.

[00:20:06] A, because of Steve's referral and the title.

[00:20:09] And then all of a sudden I thought, oh my gosh, this better be good because SHRM is going to put its endorsement on it.

[00:20:15] And I will tell you the most difficult and trying part of being an author and writing a manuscript is reading back your own work.

[00:20:22] It's not really difficult to pound out words.

[00:20:25] That's my writing coach suggested, John, don't think about the grammatical flow of what you're writing.

[00:20:31] Just get your ideas out on a piece of paper based upon the table of contents that you're following.

[00:20:38] And I did all that.

[00:20:39] We ended up obviously editing it and making it sound good.

[00:20:43] But reading your manuscript back, it ended up 70,000 some words over and over and over again.

[00:20:49] And that became a very difficult chore because you're nitpicking the littlest of things.

[00:20:55] And eventually at some point you've got to be like, this is it.

[00:20:58] I'm done.

[00:20:59] You can have it back.

[00:21:01] SHRM, make it happen.

[00:21:02] And then lo and behold, we put a marketing plan around it.

[00:21:04] And then October 23rd, October 24th, 2023, we launched the book.

[00:21:10] And I was shocked when Matt from SHRM called me and said it's the first ever number one new release on Amazon we ever had for one of our thought leadership books.

[00:21:19] And I was floored, absolutely floored.

[00:21:21] And we sold out on that day, which is something that shouldn't happen but did.

[00:21:26] And it's still going great.

[00:21:28] Today we have our Cyber Monday promotion.

[00:21:32] If you buy up to three copies, you shoot me a note on LinkedIn.

[00:21:36] And we'll put together a book club for you if you'd like.

[00:21:40] It's one of those cool things.

[00:21:41] We have this template for facilitating a book club around HR Like a Boss.

[00:21:46] And I'll send you some other goodies as well.

[00:21:48] And thanks for including the QR code and whatnot there.

[00:21:51] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:21:53] So folks that are on watching live, it is the comment section is open.

[00:21:58] So if you are currently reading HR Like a Boss, if you've read it and you want to share your quick feedback about the book,

[00:22:07] or if you're in the HR Like a Boss community that John has available, share some feedback live or just where you're watching.

[00:22:16] I'd be curious to hear where you are watching and hope everybody had a great Thanksgiving.

[00:22:21] So John Bernadovich, HR Like a Boss.

[00:22:24] So this is obviously ideal for HR professionals to be reading through and really getting to understand your concept behind this.

[00:22:34] So let's go into it a little bit because early in the book, like you said, there are six parts to this book.

[00:22:40] And you talk about the definition of human resources according to you.

[00:22:45] And it's connecting people with the purpose of their organization.

[00:22:48] So explain that definition a little bit to us.

[00:22:55] It's a complete lack of parallel to what the definition of HR is in a, I'll call it a traditional.

[00:23:05] If you Google define HR or human resources, or you look it up in a dictionary, if you have one of those things anymore,

[00:23:10] it talks about records and compliance and all these things that you have to do, hiring and firing.

[00:23:16] And I get that those are components of what human resources is.

[00:23:20] But in my mind, the true definition of human resources is this ability for you to create a connection between your people and why your business exists.

[00:23:31] And that's why I was very intentional with using the word purpose.

[00:23:35] Purpose was the main thing I learned from writing my own book of having intention with what I do every single day

[00:23:43] and then working for an organization that supports that intention.

[00:23:47] And I feel like if human resource professionals are able to understand the why behind what they're doing,

[00:23:54] they can be very intentional about the actions and strategies they take to ensure that their people are connecting to the purpose of their business.

[00:24:04] At the same time, while doing the tactical things that they're expected to as an HR pro,

[00:24:08] you got to have a proficient and effective handbook.

[00:24:12] You've got to have a payroll partner service that can process payroll.

[00:24:17] You got to administer your benefits effectively.

[00:24:19] Those are all things that are just assumed that you do in human resources.

[00:24:23] But the real reason that makes a difference in people's lives is if you get a chance to bring meaning to what they do every single day.

[00:24:32] And I think there's no other department inside of any business that has the chance to do that than human resources.

[00:24:38] Yeah, it's the department and it's all different.

[00:24:42] You work with a company of 40 or 4,000.

[00:24:45] It's all going to be different.

[00:24:46] HR is not going to be the same no matter where you go.

[00:24:49] Culture is going to be different.

[00:24:51] Environment, teamwork, all of that's going to be different.

[00:24:54] It really is that department that intertwines and works with everybody.

[00:24:58] Because if you ask a manager, what are their biggest challenges?

[00:25:02] And part of it is they're going to probably say training, hiring good people, retaining them, developing them.

[00:25:09] All of that falls in line with working with that manager, supporting them.

[00:25:13] And HR is that department.

[00:25:16] So they play a huge role.

[00:25:18] So what is one strategy from the book that when people read through it and they learn and digest what you're talking about in the book,

[00:25:31] what is one thing that they can start using immediately through that book?

[00:25:36] Well, I'll start with the great piece of advice that Steve Brown gave me was,

[00:25:40] John, tell your story, make it as personal as you can, but give actionable suggestions to your human resource professionals.

[00:25:48] I think that's a critically important part.

[00:25:51] Give them a how-to.

[00:25:52] And one of the coolest things for me is I mentioned to you the bane of my existence in writing the book was reading it back and reading back my own words.

[00:26:03] Because there were a number of times when I read things back, David, that I could not get those deleted fast enough.

[00:26:08] Or if I had a printed copy of it shredded just because, oh my gosh, how that sounded so terrible and horrible.

[00:26:14] How could you say those words?

[00:26:15] But when I end up writing out the HR Like a Boss business plan, which is, I was also told by another friend, you got to have a money chapter.

[00:26:23] You got to have a chapter that you can draw people to.

[00:26:25] And that's chapter 14 in the book.

[00:26:27] The very first part of that is to have a purposeful commitment.

[00:26:31] And then after that, be people-centric, produce consistently, have processes that have continuity, and then you'll develop profitable characteristics for your business, understanding what those are.

[00:26:42] But having a purpose in your business, clearly defining what it is, having it be four words or less, preferably.

[00:26:50] Everybody can remember it from your employees to your customers, to your vendors, and everyone else.

[00:26:56] And that becomes your aspirational why of your business.

[00:26:59] And then ultimately, hopefully, you're finding employees that gravitate and connect to that purpose.

[00:27:05] And then you have a set of core values around how you run your business and the things that you expect that align with what you're trying to accomplish at a higher level.

[00:27:15] And this idea really came to me as I studied very successful entrepreneurs and business leaders who had amassed significant amounts of wealth.

[00:27:24] Bill Gates.

[00:27:26] And I know there was a recent article out just by Berkshire Hathaway's founder and all that goes with getting rid of or dispersing your wealth either to your heirs or to others.

[00:27:39] And what these really successful entrepreneurs are doing is in the tail end of their career.

[00:27:45] They're giving away all the money that they earned.

[00:27:47] And I thought to myself, well, what kind of impact did a Bill Gates had if in 1980-something he was creating a purpose around why Microsoft existed?

[00:27:58] While they went and conquered the world of putting that Windows on every single computer and laptop that existed in the world, my guess is a lot of the social and societal issues that existed that they're attacking now in their foundation.

[00:28:12] We'd be way further ahead because the employees would have galvanized around that idea.

[00:28:18] An IT developer at Microsoft would maybe say to themselves, I'm going to work a little bit harder.

[00:28:24] I'm going to give a little bit more because I know if we do well as a business, we're going to attack an issue that exists in the world that's important to me.

[00:28:32] And we have to do that as human resource professionals.

[00:28:34] We have to connect our people to the purpose of our business.

[00:28:38] And if we do that, we do that.

[00:28:40] I know that's part of the slogan for today.

[00:28:42] We can transform how people feel at work through the power of human resources.

[00:28:46] And to me, that's what it's all about.

[00:28:47] Yeah.

[00:28:48] I've got a few questions that have come in, John.

[00:28:51] I want to bring them up as they are hopefully still watching.

[00:28:54] So Tammy said, what would you say are the top three characteristics an HR professional should have?

[00:29:01] And can they be learned or do they need to be innate?

[00:29:06] Great question.

[00:29:09] Yeah, you got it.

[00:29:10] Hi, Tammy.

[00:29:11] I'd say there's two table stakes inside of HR Like a Boss.

[00:29:16] The things I feel like you have to have in order to do HR Like a Boss.

[00:29:20] And the first one is you have to love what you do.

[00:29:23] You have to have love for people.

[00:29:26] And a lot of times I've heard this too many times from maybe slightly more tenured HR professionals when asked, why did you get into HR?

[00:29:34] Because I like people.

[00:29:35] How do you feel about that now?

[00:29:37] Why?

[00:29:37] I'm the exact opposite.

[00:29:38] I don't really like people or the things that they do.

[00:29:41] And I get that.

[00:29:43] I get the fact that people are the most complex part of a business and they create such unique challenges for human resource professionals.

[00:29:51] But we cannot forget why we got into HR.

[00:29:54] It's because of people.

[00:29:55] We want to do better for them.

[00:29:56] And just think about the fact that they're spending 70,000 to 80,000 hours of their lives working.

[00:30:02] And it's human resources job to make that work time as fulfilling and enjoyable and meaningful to them while they provide for their family and build a nest egg to ultimately retire.

[00:30:14] That's number one.

[00:30:16] Number two, besides having a love and passion for what you do, you got to take ownership.

[00:30:22] I'm a huge, I believe the idea of treating your job like it's your very own business.

[00:30:27] I looked at how I acted when I was a corporate employee working for a company getting a W-2 versus an entrepreneur.

[00:30:35] And I think when organizations are able to allow their employees to treat their job like it's their very own business through autonomy, through opportunity, through development, through challenges, then you will see people grow and develop in a way that you maybe never did when they were on the confines of really making sure you do the job the way we want you to as opposed to empowering that employee to do that.

[00:31:02] And then the last thing I think from a characteristic standpoint that I've learned and really been hyper-focused on developing is emotional intelligence.

[00:31:12] I think to be able to deal with all the things that human resources have to do and deal with them at a high level, you're typically in the most contentious, unique circumstances that have when an employee does something completely out of what you think would be normal or right.

[00:31:31] You're having to deal with that conflict.

[00:31:33] And if you're adding fuel to the fire by having a contentious employee in your HR bringing more contention, I remember having one of my guests on my podcast share this idea is we want to shepherd issues through our department in a way that diffuses the situation and makes it better for the employee, the manager, and the team.

[00:31:55] And I think having a high degree of emotional intelligence.

[00:31:58] And we can all work on that.

[00:32:00] That's something that's a learned skill.

[00:32:01] It's something you can get better at and you can certainly improve.

[00:32:04] So those three things, ownership, passion, and emotional intelligence.

[00:32:10] Jamie said, I say, what is the number one?

[00:32:13] Make it hard.

[00:32:15] So hopefully you answered that for Jamie.

[00:32:19] But another question came in from Bridget.

[00:32:21] What do you think your next book will be about?

[00:32:23] Maybe golf?

[00:32:24] I don't know.

[00:32:26] Well, thank you for the Willery team for hopping in on the podcast.

[00:32:31] Luckily, hopefully they're still doing some work, but I appreciate them supporting the show.

[00:32:35] So I am working on a book actually with Tammy called Payroll Like a Boss, which is pretty cool.

[00:32:41] It's a spinoff of HR Like a Boss, but very specific to payroll.

[00:32:45] My firm, like yours, is dedicated to the human resources and payroll community.

[00:32:49] And we've been asked to write a book, a thought leadership book around elevating how people view the payroll profession different than human resources.

[00:32:59] I see a significant risk inside of the payroll world in that not enough professionals are entering that profession and way more are exiting.

[00:33:12] And as a result of that, we will not have enough great, amazingly awesome payroll professionals.

[00:33:17] And we're hoping to be able to motivate some through the book.

[00:33:21] And then I am also writing another book called Purpose is Paramount, which plays on what I talked about earlier of having a purposeful commitment.

[00:33:30] That's my, that's my, I don't know what word you want to call.

[00:33:34] It's, it's just a project of mine that I'm super passionate about.

[00:33:37] And it's, it's no work for me to be writing it different this time around when I would take the weekends to write.

[00:33:44] I don't have that time as much as I used to before.

[00:33:46] Now I'm writing while I'm traveling.

[00:33:49] I've been blessed to give a number of presentations around the world and the country around HR Like a Boss and transforming work through the power of human resources.

[00:33:58] And I've been able to spend time in an airplane typing out my words.

[00:34:03] So I'm about halfway through the Purpose is Paramount manuscript and Tammy and I are just getting started.

[00:34:08] We're co-writing The Payroll Like a Boss and we'll hopefully have that done by the end of 2025.

[00:34:13] Very cool.

[00:34:14] Very cool.

[00:34:16] A couple other questions I had for you, John.

[00:34:18] You know, what, how has HR evolved, you know, over the last few years and, and for business leaders and advice to them about HR and what that looks like in the future?

[00:34:32] You know, what would that, what would that be?

[00:34:34] Would you say?

[00:34:36] So the top of the topic or future where we're heading, like what's happening?

[00:34:39] Yeah, really the future of HR and, you know, what advice would you give business leaders when, when thinking about HR within their organization and, and how could they maybe kind of change their perception or their outlook or insight on, on what HR is going to play in their future organization success?

[00:34:59] I think the primary thing is to help human resource professionals align on their primary responsibility.

[00:35:08] When I look at HR, the reason why it's such a difficult job is that you have to balance between the employees and the employer.

[00:35:17] And sometimes that is very difficult to do.

[00:35:19] And you are inevitably having to pick a side.

[00:35:23] And back to my earlier comment of why people hate human resources is maybe at some point you had to make a decision that was maybe better for the employer and not as, as well suited for the employee.

[00:35:35] And my, my, my, my advice on this one is that I think the human resource profession has to make the employees their primary responsibility and focus and find a way to be able to have a profitable business.

[00:35:51] And my recommendation around that is I think the HR profession generally has that aptitude and understanding to be able to put your employees first.

[00:36:01] But I really feel like where the opportunity for improvement is to improve their business acumen, their level of executive presence and leadership so that they can, when they're stressed in a situation and asked by C-level executives, why are we making this decision?

[00:36:18] That they're looking at it from a business perspective.

[00:36:21] They're looking at it from an executive level perspective because ultimately that's where the decision points are coming.

[00:36:27] That's where budget's coming from.

[00:36:29] That's where resources and time are coming from.

[00:36:31] And if you're so myopic and trying to focus on compliance or making sure we're doing the best we can for open enrollment, I'm not suggesting that's not important.

[00:36:41] But there's a balance of, well, how do I become a better business leader that just so happens to practice in the field of human resources?

[00:36:49] And that to me is where you can really make an impact in your role and you can transform how people feel at work through the power of HR.

[00:36:58] You talked about in the book, according to Development Dimensions International, this was in December of 2019, more than half, 57% of employees leave a job because of their manager.

[00:37:15] Which I would assume that that percent has gone up a little bit since 2019.

[00:37:21] Maybe it's about the same.

[00:37:22] I don't know the current statistic, but there's a lot of people out there either listening to this or may listen to it on demand that have left a job because of their manager and how they were managed.

[00:37:35] So, you know, what advice do you give people that are in a managerial role, maybe not HR, but a managerial role to try to help that percentage in their organization and their team, you know, stay low, stay lower than that percentage and try to develop people instead of them leaving because of how they're managed.

[00:37:57] Thanks for asking that question.

[00:38:01] HR is support of anything inside of a business.

[00:38:04] When I'm asked, what's the number one place to start?

[00:38:07] It's managers and leaders.

[00:38:09] If your executive team at your business is not aligned, if they're not proficient and skilled at doing their job, you and human resources are going to have more work to do.

[00:38:18] If your frontline managers who are working with your people every single day, if they're not proficient and skilled and having crucial conversations and being empathetic in the way that they deal with employee challenges, if they're not being strategic in their role, then you as an HR professional, your job is going to be that much harder.

[00:38:39] My primary recommendation is to attack that manager and leadership team in a way that you're trying to improve their ability to be managers.

[00:38:50] That same study that you referenced suggested that it took 47 months, 47 or 48 months before first-time managers got their first leadership or management training.

[00:39:01] I use the analogy of would any of us take our four-year-old child and throw them in the deep end of the pool and say, oh, you got four years to figure out how to swim.

[00:39:10] Let's see how that goes.

[00:39:11] Well, we wouldn't do that.

[00:39:12] That's not something that you would do in any way, shape or form.

[00:39:16] I think that's the most important part for HR supporting a business is look at your executives and your managers.

[00:39:23] And if it's not something you're great at or you haven't had experience with, there's an abundance of leadership development coaches out there that can help you build a plan, be specific about the accountability and chart forward a course for each of your managers and leaders to help them grow and develop.

[00:39:39] When it comes to the advice that I hope human resource professionals or if we're in a situation where we're doing consulting for our clients and we're giving advice and counsel is that I would recommend to any manager to work on their ability to care for individual human beings.

[00:39:59] I, in my opinion, having done what I've done and interacting with thousands of people throughout my career, I just don't think people do a great job about caring for other people.

[00:40:11] I really don't think they do.

[00:40:12] I think we can make a much higher degree concerted effort of genuine care for our people.

[00:40:21] And that means listening to them, not being distracted by our phones, being present in our conversation, repeating back what we heard.

[00:40:30] If they have something going on in their life, ask them how it's going.

[00:40:34] If one of their loved ones is in the hospital and they tell you that, don't blow it off.

[00:40:38] And then two, three weeks later, never ask them again.

[00:40:41] Ask them a couple of times a day or even once a week at the very least.

[00:40:46] Hey, how's your brother doing?

[00:40:47] I know you told me that he was in the hospital.

[00:40:49] I just want to make sure everything was going okay.

[00:40:52] And I really feel like people gravitate to those that care.

[00:40:56] They show love.

[00:40:57] I use that word in my book quite a bit.

[00:40:59] The word of love at work, is it taboo?

[00:41:02] I don't think so.

[00:41:03] People need to feel loved.

[00:41:05] And they spend so much time working.

[00:41:07] That's 70,000 to 80,000 hours in a year.

[00:41:09] How can they do that when their managers just think they're a number and we don't really care about them?

[00:41:15] Your elevation of care and your ability to be empathetic and concerned for the well-being of your employees is a learned skill.

[00:41:24] Some people don't do it as well.

[00:41:26] Some have it innately born in them.

[00:41:28] But that would be my main advice to give to a group of managers that are trying to figure out, well, how do I reduce turnover inside of my business?

[00:41:35] Because I've had those discussions before, David.

[00:41:38] And what I hear back in response to that is next to appalling, quite frankly.

[00:41:43] I think it's criminal in some regards the way that managers treat their people.

[00:41:47] Yeah, it's having empathy at the right times and showing that personal connection that just for some and just a simple thank you, a simple message about what they're doing in their job and making them feel valued is huge.

[00:42:02] So another question, Jennifer, is training the answer or coaching or both?

[00:42:10] Good question.

[00:42:11] If you had to pick one, I think you have to pick coaching, in my opinion.

[00:42:17] The reason why I say that is that training is a 30-minute exercise that you do.

[00:42:23] And are you fully present for that training?

[00:42:26] Do you have something else going on?

[00:42:28] Are you distracted by an email?

[00:42:30] Did you get bad news at home and, oh, I got to go through this training at work because I got to check off this mark?

[00:42:35] Where coaching is an individual relationship and, in my opinion, great coaches are tremendous at holding people accountable.

[00:42:43] And they're great at having difficult conversations where a training doesn't necessarily do that.

[00:42:49] They give you the foundational tools to do whatever you're trying to be trained on.

[00:42:54] But you need that continuous, repeated coaching.

[00:42:58] And that's an investment for businesses to make inside of a company.

[00:43:03] And if you look at successfully run organizations, they have coaches that are supporting key members.

[00:43:10] Even at sometimes the goal is let's get a coach for all your managers and leaders so that they can become better coaches and leaders for their team.

[00:43:19] And they can provide that coaching and counseling to their individual team members.

[00:43:24] So I would put coaching first.

[00:43:26] Training is good.

[00:43:27] It's a good way to get a group of people together, to have some camaraderie around a common topic.

[00:43:31] But I think the real moving the needle and making an impact is around coaching.

[00:43:36] Yeah, and that's what you talk about in the Dweck's growth mindset formula in your book.

[00:43:41] You talked about growth equals effort plus coaching plus time.

[00:43:45] So taking the effort, coaching, time, that's what really grows an individual within their role as a manager, as a leader.

[00:43:55] And no disrespect to those that are out there doing trainings.

[00:43:59] I'm not trying to disrespect, but I want you to think back of a time when you were at maybe let's say your kid's ceremony for being on the football team or playing lacrosse.

[00:44:09] Or you see someone share a story about their experience in sports or in life, and they talk about the impact that the coach had on their life.

[00:44:17] And rarely do you hear someone talk about the impact that a trainer had on their life.

[00:44:23] Not meaning that what they're training on isn't important, but it is a very finite point in time.

[00:44:28] And the coaching happens, should happen over an extended period of time where you develop relationships, you deal with very difficult situations, and you put a plan together and you create accountability around it to, again, improve and get better at it.

[00:44:43] John Bernatowicz, HR like a boss.

[00:44:46] If anybody has any other questions, feel free to chime in.

[00:44:51] I'm going to pull up the QR code again so people that are watching can get to his community.

[00:44:58] If you enter boss in the box that opens up, that will give you access to it.

[00:45:03] So, John, is there anything else you want to talk about within the community just as I have this up as you've built this out with tons of HR professionals within that community?

[00:45:15] Yes.

[00:45:15] I'll share one quick thing.

[00:45:17] When I wrote the book, I thought, okay, is that ambitious enough?

[00:45:20] Yes, it is.

[00:45:21] But I thought to really make an impact, which is my purpose, is to build out this community.

[00:45:26] And what we've done inside of it is that we've provided a couple forums for human resource professionals to grow and develop their own skills.

[00:45:34] At the same time, we've also provided a space for collaboration because human resources profession is very lonely at times, especially if you're in a department of one or two.

[00:45:45] Who do you reach out to when you have this precarious, unique situation?

[00:45:48] Can't really talk about others at work about it.

[00:45:51] You can't necessarily share that with your spouse if that's the case.

[00:45:55] But you can reach out to friends that you've made or others in the field that have maybe experienced that same thing.

[00:46:01] That space for collaboration is there.

[00:46:02] And then we give up to 25 SHRM recertification credits for free.

[00:46:06] You'll get access to the HR Like a Boss community for free for a year, if not longer, depending upon how we're doing with our sponsors.

[00:46:14] There's a lot of interest in it because we've grown it from zero to up to 1,600 bosses in that community right now.

[00:46:20] David, I know you're one of them.

[00:46:22] And you can also get your HR Like a Boss certificate if you go through all the things that are going on, which is really cool.

[00:46:31] And it's been a life-changing experience to be able to write the book, do the keynote speeches, see the interest in the HR Like a Boss community.

[00:46:40] I know we're on to something.

[00:46:42] And even your kind invitation to be on the Speak Easy HR podcast is a tremendous compliment to me.

[00:46:49] And, David, I appreciate what you're doing and the celebration of HR.

[00:46:54] Yeah, it's been great to dive into this book a little bit, John.

[00:46:59] And the community is amazing.

[00:47:00] I went through and got my certification within that, and it's at my desk.

[00:47:05] So definitely appreciate that and what you're doing for the HR community because I think there are people that are getting out of the career of being in HR.

[00:47:14] And I think there's just so much opportunity over the next few years as how technology is going to change, AI is going to impact things, right?

[00:47:22] You know, there's going to be some challenges.

[00:47:23] People are going to have a hard time finding the right people to fill jobs.

[00:47:27] And so there's just still a lot of human connection needed and a lot of opportunity for people to make an impact in an HR position within their organization.

[00:47:36] And it's going to be needed.

[00:47:38] And we're going to need good people to develop people, like you said, and be a coach or a trainer and manage people.

[00:47:44] So there's just still a lot of opportunity.

[00:47:46] Same with payroll and what we do.

[00:47:48] So, you know, what's, you know, from everything that you've seen and have learned over the last few years, you know, what might be some of the bigger challenges that HR professionals face in the next year or two that people can maybe get out in front of and really apply what they learn in the book to their job and their career?

[00:48:11] Yeah, you mentioned one of them was around technology.

[00:48:14] And I think the artificial intelligence has been a very unique entry into our business lives over the last few years and more specifically in the last 18 months.

[00:48:26] And I think the job of HR is very difficult, but many of you have access to HR technology tools and resources.

[00:48:34] I know the folks at Payroll Partners provide that as well.

[00:48:37] And in order for you to get more done in less time, you need help.

[00:48:41] You need support.

[00:48:42] You need some tools and resources.

[00:48:45] And I think leveraging your human resource technology and systems to help automate things that happen that maybe you're doing in a manual or mundane way, or you're not even doing it all because you don't like doing it.

[00:48:57] And it's an administrative task.

[00:48:59] Running toward learning your technology, to me, is something we need to do.

[00:49:04] I heard a statement that I've said many times before.

[00:49:07] I don't think it's AI that will necessarily replace human resources.

[00:49:10] I think it's the people that embrace AI and leverage it in their job will replace those that did not.

[00:49:16] And I think that's something we need to consider.

[00:49:20] That's one.

[00:49:21] And then I'll go back to the other item that I mentioned before.

[00:49:26] Therefore, let's do our part as business leaders at caring for our people.

[00:49:32] Genuinely taking an interest and ensuring they know that we care for them and we care how they feel.

[00:49:40] It's like that Maya Angelou quote, which I love to say all the time.

[00:49:42] It's not what you say.

[00:49:43] It's what you do.

[00:49:44] It's how you make people feel.

[00:49:45] And there's a way that work makes people feel.

[00:49:49] And human resources has the greatest chance to influence that either in a good or bad way.

[00:49:55] And I would love to see HR professionals be empowered to see how can I make our employees feel like we care for them.

[00:50:04] Yeah.

[00:50:04] And, you know, like you said, putting all of it together at the end of your book, you talk about, you know, the one thing that's in common with all of this is really impacting the employees, company, possibly the community.

[00:50:17] And if everyone can focus on that and make it more of a focus for their individual position and within their organization, it can do a lot of good.

[00:50:26] It can do a lot and well beyond what you might think for somebody.

[00:50:30] And you can really impact their career, their mental health and just personal situations going on.

[00:50:37] So, John, I really appreciate your time.

[00:50:39] I know you have a lot going on and, you know, certainly enjoyed our conversation.

[00:50:45] For people that have not listened to previous episodes of the podcast, you can go to Speakeasy HR and go to the blog, go to past episodes, have some amazing guests coming up over the next few months and cannot wait to have more and more conversations.

[00:51:01] Hopefully in the future, John, you can come back on and talk something else that you're working on.

[00:51:05] So, again, anything else you want to add before we get off here?

[00:51:10] Just a huge thanks to you, David, and Payroll Partners for putting on this podcast.

[00:51:14] I know you're just into episode 17.

[00:51:17] I'm sure doing this has been a great learning tool for you, and you've got a chance to connect with people in a very unique way.

[00:51:23] It is pretty amazing how it's a little bit easier to ask someone to be on a podcast and have an hour-long meeting with them in sales or something like that.

[00:51:31] It's kind of a unique trick, which is really cool.

[00:51:34] I also love your background and your setup.

[00:51:36] I mean, I know I mentioned this to you before when we talked about it.

[00:51:39] You've been really intentional and strategic about this podcast, and I think there's something for us to learn as all of you that are out there watching this.

[00:51:47] There's great intention that Payroll Partners has made around this podcast and developing David and his role in human resources and being a strategic support partner within that business.

[00:51:58] And we had fun, although we didn't drink any of those drinks back there.

[00:52:02] Maybe one of those high-end bourbon.

[00:52:04] You've got a high-end bourbon back there.

[00:52:05] You've got a little...

[00:52:06] Yeah, this one's actually from Prohibition.

[00:52:09] It's not really bourbon anymore.

[00:52:11] It's just a bunch of dirty water.

[00:52:12] Okay.

[00:52:13] Oh, cool.

[00:52:14] That's like legit, like 100-year-old bourbon.

[00:52:17] Is that what you're saying?

[00:52:17] Or some sort of moonshine?

[00:52:19] Yeah, it was bottled in...

[00:52:22] It was made in 1916.

[00:52:24] Holy cow.

[00:52:26] So it's still wax.

[00:52:28] It's still waxed, and it's...

[00:52:30] Obviously, you can't drink it, but it's what would have been bourbon during Prohibition that just sat in a bottle.

[00:52:36] Did over time?

[00:52:37] Do you assume over time the bourbon just went...

[00:52:40] It just like somehow evaporated over time is my guess.

[00:52:44] 100 years later, that's what happens?

[00:52:45] Yeah.

[00:52:45] There's a vintage bottle shop that recently I went to locally and told him I'm doing a podcast.

[00:52:53] So I've bought bottles off of him.

[00:52:55] This is not an actual telephone.

[00:52:58] It's full of bourbon.

[00:53:00] Oh, my gosh.

[00:53:02] What's your favorite bourbon to drink?

[00:53:04] I just had...

[00:53:05] Oh, man.

[00:53:06] Oh, gosh.

[00:53:07] I got to look real quick.

[00:53:08] What did I...

[00:53:08] Whoops.

[00:53:10] I have a friend of mine who's a guru at this stuff.

[00:53:12] Do you have a recommendation for bourbon?

[00:53:15] That's a very...

[00:53:16] I just had Knob Creek this weekend.

[00:53:18] That was good.

[00:53:19] Yeah.

[00:53:20] I mean, you cannot go wrong.

[00:53:21] This is from 1980.

[00:53:22] It's a wild turkey.

[00:53:23] This is some of the best stuff ever made.

[00:53:25] Yes.

[00:53:26] That's cool.

[00:53:27] This is pretty amazing.

[00:53:30] It's 40 plus years old.

[00:53:32] I actually blended a bourbon with my wife when we got married last year.

[00:53:35] So this is our blended bourbon that we gave out as wedding gifts.

[00:53:39] In Kentucky?

[00:53:41] Because you're from Kentucky, right?

[00:53:42] Yeah.

[00:53:42] You're just down the road.

[00:53:43] Yep.

[00:53:44] So this is a long...

[00:53:46] Yeah.

[00:53:46] What we need to do is we need to schedule a round of golf somewhere at a cool place in

[00:53:51] Kentucky, and then you can take me to one of your favorite bourbon distilleries, and

[00:53:55] I'll stay overnight.

[00:53:56] How's that?

[00:53:57] That way we can partake.

[00:53:59] We've got a lot of those.

[00:54:00] We've got a lot of those down here.

[00:54:02] So yeah.

[00:54:02] All right.

[00:54:03] Deal made.

[00:54:04] Come on down.

[00:54:05] So...

[00:54:06] Well, thanks, John.

[00:54:06] This has been great.

[00:54:07] I really appreciate everyone coming on and engaging with us and breaking up their Monday

[00:54:12] after the holiday weekend.

[00:54:13] I'm sure everybody is getting caught up.

[00:54:16] So appreciate you spending some time with us.

[00:54:18] If you, like I said, haven't watched some of the previous episodes, catch them on speakeasyhr.com

[00:54:24] or on demand.

[00:54:25] So, John, appreciate your time.

[00:54:27] Have a great holiday season.

[00:54:29] And we'll talk to you real soon.

[00:54:30] All right, bud?

[00:54:31] Thank you, David.

[00:54:32] And everyone else, have a blessed remainder of 2024.

[00:54:35] And all the best for a relaxing, enjoyable holiday season.

[00:54:39] Let's kick some ass in 2025.

[00:54:41] Amen.

[00:54:43] All right.

[00:54:44] Take care, everybody.

[00:54:45] See you later.