012: Why HR Should Be the Chief Disruption Officer in Every Organization

[00:00:59] Hey, what's going on everybody? David Noe with SpeakEasy HR. I am thrilled and honored to have the guest on today that we are going to dive into a really exciting topic for this episode. We're at episode 12. It's October 28th. Can't believe it's almost November. I've got Jennifer McClure. She's the CEO of Unbridled Talent and Disrupt HR. Jennifer, welcome. How are you today?

[00:01:25] Jennifer McClure I'm happy to be here and congratulations on 12 episodes so far. So this is episode 12 or unlucky 13?

[00:01:34] David Noe This is episode 12.

[00:01:35] Jennifer McClure Got in early there. Good luck to the next one.

[00:01:39] David Noe Yes, absolutely. So we are live on LinkedIn and YouTube. Want to make sure if people are watching, tune in, chime in, tell us where you're watching. If you have any questions along the way, please put them in the comments below.

[00:01:55] David Noe Yes, I'll see you in the comments section.

[00:01:56] David Noe Yes, I'll see you in the comments section, because everybody that you know, are going to be listening to this if they're in some kind of HR role, they might have the same question that you're thinking about. So don't hesitate to go into that chat section, whether you're on YouTube or LinkedIn. So definitely want to hear from anybody watching. This show is presented by Payroll Partners. We have some amazing technology, which if anybody has a thought or or anything, you might want to hear from anybody.

[00:02:25] David Noe Yes, I'll see you in the comments section. So if you have a payroll process, or if your payroll company is hogging your time and money, definitely check us out at payrollpartners.net. Amazing team in the Cincinnati area. So if you were at the Ohio Sherm or Kentucky Sherm, and you didn't get one of these pigs, shame on you. But these were a hit. We always have an animal. Last year was the cow. This year was the pig. So next year, we've got a couple ideas.

[00:02:55] So anyway, these were the fun handouts at the Sherm conferences. So we have some things to get to. Obviously, like I said, this is live on LinkedIn and YouTube. We have the world famous envelope icebreaker question coming up that we'll hear. I gave the questions to you, Jennifer, so we can let you pick a number. So we will, let's just go into that. And then I'll introduce you because your bio is kind of

[00:03:25] kind of long and I want to make sure I get to everything. Let's not read that whole thing. How about that? No, I won't read the whole thing. But people that don't know you, I want I want everyone to understand what, what you've been into lately. So let's just get right into the envelope icebreaker. All right. I've got 15 questions that have something, hopefully that we haven't heard from other guests. So do you have a number?

[00:03:59] You said 13 before. So I don't know if that's your number or if you've got one else in mind.

[00:04:04] 10 is my lucky number. So let's go with 10 is your lucky number. All right. So I've got number 10.

[00:04:13] Lucky number 10.

[00:04:16] All right. So I'll tell you what, I feel like everybody picks this number because this is the same question, but it's a good one. What sport would you compete in if you were in the Olympics?

[00:04:28] Oh, easy answer. Equestrian, show jumping.

[00:04:31] Okay. So is that something you've done?

[00:04:33] Of course, we're ready. We're actually not ready at all for that, but that would be my dream to have at that level and be able to do show jumping internationally. And obviously, very cool. It would be amazing.

[00:04:46] Okay. Okay. All right. Let's do one more because that one I feel like it's, I don't know, I'm gonna have to switch them around. What else other than 10?

[00:04:57] Let's go with five.

[00:04:59] Five. Okay. Number five is

[00:05:05] What is your favorite tradition or holiday?

[00:05:10] There are so many other good questions.

[00:05:13] My favorite tradition or holiday? I mean, holidays, I'm not, I'm not, I mean, I don't, Halloween is coming up. That's not a big one for me. I mean, Thanksgiving. I like to get together with family and friends and obviously food. Go with Thanksgiving. Come in the U.S. in the next month.

[00:05:32] Yeah. My kids want to listen to Christmas music already. And I tell them, I don't listen to it until Thanksgiving.

[00:05:39] I saw a Christmas commercial with Christmas music. I was like, it's not time to, we're too soon.

[00:05:45] Yeah. Yeah. Let's enjoy the fall. Let's enjoy Halloween. Let's try to get to one holiday at a time. Okay. Lightning round, which this one is more about your first job with taxes deducted.

[00:06:03] If you can think back to your first job where you actually had to pay taxes and you got a paycheck and you're like, where'd all my money go?

[00:06:12] So all that farm work doesn't count when dad paid me.

[00:06:17] Free labor. Yeah.

[00:06:18] It was theoretically, I guess, getting paid under the table, that dollar an hour stuff.

[00:06:22] Yeah, exactly.

[00:06:24] All right. First job, W-2. Okay.

[00:06:26] Yep.

[00:06:28] Just what was it?

[00:06:30] Yeah. Yeah. What was it?

[00:06:31] I worked as a cashier in a country grocery store on the way to the Okoy River in Tennessee, if you're familiar with that.

[00:06:40] That was where the Atlanta Olympics held their rafting, but it was out in the middle of nowhere.

[00:06:44] And everybody coming through there was just as country as country could be or people who were on their way to the lake or the river.

[00:06:51] And they only wanted one thing, which we did not sell, which was alcohol.

[00:06:56] Okay.

[00:06:57] Very good.

[00:06:58] Sorry.

[00:06:59] People coming in from out of town.

[00:07:02] That's awesome.

[00:07:03] I mean, I was actually down at the Olympics in 96.

[00:07:05] That was a crazy time.

[00:07:07] Okay.

[00:07:08] Yeah.

[00:07:08] I went to the track and field two days and we were at the park that evening.

[00:07:15] We weren't there when the actual bombing happened, but it was, you know, you wake up and we didn't have social media.

[00:07:21] So we wake up and my mom's listening to the news and she's freaking out.

[00:07:24] And so, yeah, it was wild.

[00:07:26] Didn't have social media either.

[00:07:27] So she couldn't reach you immediately, huh?

[00:07:29] Yeah, exactly.

[00:07:31] We do have some folks chiming in where they're watching.

[00:07:33] So we've got Alberto down in Austin, Texas.

[00:07:37] Thank you, Roberto.

[00:07:39] And we've got Renata, I think is how you pronounce it, in Brazil.

[00:07:44] So welcome.

[00:07:45] Very exciting.

[00:07:48] So, Jennifer, you've been in HR for quite some time and you've done a couple of keynote speaking and engagements,

[00:07:56] which you've had over 350 conferences, workshops, corporate events.

[00:08:02] You know, some of your keynote topics that you talk about are high impact leadership, creating a career and life you love, the future of work.

[00:08:11] So you started Disrupt HR.

[00:08:13] You have unbridled talent.

[00:08:16] So take us back to when you first started getting into this world of HR.

[00:08:20] Like what led you down that path?

[00:08:23] Well, we have to go way back if we're going to go when I started.

[00:08:27] So it was actually called personnel back then.

[00:08:29] And so some of you OGs on the line may remember the days back when it was, we didn't like 96.

[00:08:36] They didn't have cell phones, didn't have social media.

[00:08:38] We also didn't have email.

[00:08:39] We didn't have the computers back in the day.

[00:08:43] And so I was getting, I wasn't even graduating.

[00:08:45] I was a junior in college.

[00:08:47] And my advisor sat me down and said, it's time for you to pick a major.

[00:08:52] And I don't really know where this came from other than I say I was a millennial before millennials were a thing.

[00:08:59] And I wanted to rule the world right away.

[00:09:03] And he asked me, you know, what do you want your major to be?

[00:09:06] You need to figure out what you want to be when you grow up, which is a great thing to say to a 20 year old, obviously.

[00:09:10] And I only had the job in the country grocery store where the store manager had hired me.

[00:09:16] And I had never met anyone that worked in personnel or human resources.

[00:09:20] But obviously, you know, knew enough that the personnel people were the ones that hired people and had to deal with policies and benefits and all that.

[00:09:30] And so I told my advisor, I said, well, I'll go into personnel because I feel like that is a position that has the opportunity to have influence and impact over everyone in the organization.

[00:09:40] So I don't want to just go in and be a part of a small team.

[00:09:44] I want to go in and have the ability to have influence and impact on everyone right away.

[00:09:48] And I don't really know where that came from.

[00:09:52] But here we are almost four decades later.

[00:09:54] And I think that was the best decision I could have made.

[00:09:57] And now I fully believe that HR is the place to be in the organization where you can have the most influence and impact.

[00:10:05] And I believe that HR people are the most important employees in the company.

[00:10:09] Everyone's important.

[00:10:11] Everyone gets a trophy.

[00:10:12] But HR, you have my heart.

[00:10:14] Yeah.

[00:10:15] No.

[00:10:16] And it's what we'll get into about disrupting chief disruption officer and how HR folks can be in that kind of situation.

[00:10:25] So Disrupt HR was started almost 10 years ago.

[00:10:29] 2015?

[00:10:31] Is that right?

[00:10:32] No.

[00:10:33] 11 years.

[00:10:34] Okay.

[00:10:36] On that 11 year anniversary.

[00:10:38] Oh, my gosh.

[00:10:40] That's crazy.

[00:10:41] And so now it's all over.

[00:10:44] I mean, just the amount of impact and the approach to the events and the quick messages that people are trying to get across within a certain amount of time.

[00:10:54] So people that don't know Disrupt HR, explain what that is for people who have never heard that before.

[00:11:02] It's locally organized.

[00:11:04] So people in the communities or who have connections in the community will obtain a license from us to hold Disrupt HR events in their community.

[00:11:14] And they really are community organized, driven, led events.

[00:11:18] And it's called Disrupt HR, I guess, because my co-founder and I, he knew that I was in the HR space.

[00:11:25] But really, it's for anyone in the broader business community who has perspective on work in the workplace.

[00:11:31] So events are held by the local license holders around the world.

[00:11:35] We currently have 161 licenses in 34 countries, and it's continuing to grow almost every week, it seems lately.

[00:11:44] Over 8,000 talks have been given, and their videos are on our website and online.

[00:11:49] People give five-minute talks that have exactly 20 slides that are set to advance automatically every 15 seconds.

[00:11:57] So that's the Ignite format that we kind of took in the beginning.

[00:12:02] And the goal is to give people an opportunity on the playing field.

[00:12:07] So me as a professional speaker, a Disrupt HR talk is a challenge for me, just as it is for someone who's never given a talk, maybe.

[00:12:14] But to share ideas about work in the workplace.

[00:12:19] So I always say if we stole the format every night, we could steal a little bit from Ted, too, if Nina's ideas were shared about the future of work.

[00:12:28] So we encourage our local organizers to, you know, reach out to people in their community who have ideas.

[00:12:34] Hopefully some of them maybe have never spoken on a conference stage before, maybe never want to, maybe weren't willing to go through the call for speakers process at an event.

[00:12:43] That was the original purpose, to give people like that a stage and an opportunity where they could have fun, share their idea, and get up and get out without having to really think too much about, you know, standing up in front of 700 or 800 people and giving a keynote like I did last week.

[00:13:00] Yeah.

[00:13:02] Yeah, that's wild.

[00:13:03] And then I'm the CEO of Unbridled Talent role.

[00:13:07] So that's education, coaching, strategy, consulting services, which you've been doing for many years.

[00:13:14] And then the board member for the Defense Business Board for the Secretary of Defense.

[00:13:20] So you've been doing that for several years, three years.

[00:13:25] Is that about right?

[00:13:26] Yeah.

[00:13:28] And then member of the board of advisors for careerpoint.com.

[00:13:32] You're still involved in that.

[00:13:34] So you're, you're busy.

[00:13:35] So I, I appreciate your time because I know you have a busy schedule.

[00:13:40] So work really involves being immersed in what's going on in work and the future of work.

[00:13:46] And so conversations just like this are also helpful to me.

[00:13:50] And as you said earlier, if people ask questions, then that helps me to know what people are thinking about and what's on their minds.

[00:13:56] And maybe I have an opinion or a thought on that, or maybe I will need to go out and research and learn more as well.

[00:14:02] Absolutely.

[00:14:03] We've got one from Ohio.

[00:14:05] It's Kim.

[00:14:06] So south of Cleveland.

[00:14:08] Welcome, Kim.

[00:14:09] Thanks for joining.

[00:14:10] And then another LinkedIn user, El Paso, Texas.

[00:14:13] So a few folks down in Texas watching Brazil, Ohio.

[00:14:18] So again, if you have any questions for Jennifer, put them in the chat section.

[00:14:22] We will get to them during the time that we talk.

[00:14:26] And, uh, you know, so this, this topic, so just backstory on this podcast that I started over the summer, finding business, HR professionals that are super passionate about a topic.

[00:14:40] So Jennifer was on my list, um, originally, and you know, that had 15 or so people in the HR community and we're local, you know, Cincinnati area.

[00:14:50] So I've known about Jennifer for a long time.

[00:14:52] And so I asked, you know, Hey, what topic do you want to come on and talk about?

[00:14:57] That's most passionate to you.

[00:14:58] And obviously there's a lot of topics that you talk about, but bringing in the disrupt HR and how someone can be the chief disruption officer within the organization and how HR can be the key to any successful business transition.

[00:15:14] We have a lot going on right now in the world of business.

[00:15:16] And so, like you said, the, the, the role that HR plays, whether people know about it or not, and they're in an HR role, you know, it's, it's, it's a really exciting time to be in HR.

[00:15:29] I know people are burned out and getting out of HR.

[00:15:32] So what led you to bring that topic to us?

[00:15:36] And, and can you explain your mindset within being the chief disruption officer, you know, in an HR role?

[00:15:44] Yeah, I think for me, it's an evolution.

[00:15:46] As I said, I started thinking that, you know, the HR was the place to be where you have an opportunity to really have an impact on people's lives and on the business and the organization.

[00:15:55] And I've been preaching that officially for the last 14 plus years, you know, as a, as a speaker and trainer, really talking to people leaders, not just HR leaders, but people leaders about that opportunity to really step into that responsibility and make an impact.

[00:16:11] Because what I've found over the years is that, you know, and, and I think it's changed certainly since the pandemic, but maybe pre pandemic and still for many HR leaders, they don't see themselves in that role of great responsibility and great opportunity.

[00:16:24] They still are either treated as, or see themselves as a true support function.

[00:16:30] There's a place for HR to support in the business, but for those who believe in the opportunity and can see it and who work with an organization where either they're able to help the leadership see what they can do to add value in the organization, or the leaders are wanting them to do that, which again, post pandemic, I think more and more are expecting more from HR, which as you said, is both a heavy burden at times, but also a huge opportunity.

[00:16:55] So for me, it's an evolution from that to, okay, if HR is, does have this opportunity to really have influence and impact, what do they need to do?

[00:17:05] And I really believe, and again, both from my own experience and what I see in working with HR leaders and clients is that it, it, our tendency is to maintain good systems.

[00:17:16] Because for a lot of reasons, because for a lot of reasons, one being that we have so much going on.

[00:17:20] So if something's working, that's great. Let's just keep doing it that way.

[00:17:23] The other is, is because there's something new added to the plate every day.

[00:17:27] So it's, you know, not really maybe our wiring to say, how can I really disrupt my work?

[00:17:34] But the truth is to remain competitive, obviously change is happening at a faster rate than it ever has before.

[00:17:41] So I believe to keep up with the pace of that change, we have to leave it.

[00:17:45] So I believe HR should be looking out there and saying, how can I disrupt my workplace?

[00:17:50] What do I need to do to stay ahead of trends and emerging trends?

[00:17:54] What is happening?

[00:17:55] Even if I'm in small town Ohio or Iowa or in Brazil and, you know, in the rainforest somewhere,

[00:18:03] what is happening in the world impacts your workplace, whether that's supply chain issues

[00:18:07] or the fact that many of our businesses are global now because of the internet and the ability to have e-commerce.

[00:18:13] And even if you don't have either of those things, what is happening in the world impacts you.

[00:18:18] So to be culturally aware globally of what's going on, to be curious about what's new, what's next,

[00:18:25] to be brave enough to step into challenges and opportunities without having to be pushed to there.

[00:18:33] I think that's where the future opportunities lie for HR.

[00:18:36] Before I was preaching about, okay, you need to understand the importance of your role and step into that.

[00:18:41] And now I'm saying, okay, with that important role, now you need to lead regardless of your title.

[00:18:48] Yeah.

[00:18:49] We've got Will from the Southern Ohio Chamber Alliance.

[00:18:53] Will Roberts.

[00:18:53] Welcome in, Will.

[00:18:55] Ohio.

[00:18:57] Yeah.

[00:18:58] Oh, Namibia.

[00:18:59] Yeah.

[00:19:00] Welcome, Lisa.

[00:19:01] Thank you for joining.

[00:19:02] This is great.

[00:19:03] So going into your topic a little bit, Jennifer.

[00:19:08] So for business owners, for the leadership within organizations, if they have this mindset that HR is just there to be the policy police,

[00:19:22] and they're there to have the difficult conversations with people when they're not performing.

[00:19:27] Oh, but then you've got to replace people that we fire.

[00:19:30] You know, that's what a lot of people think that just HR does.

[00:19:32] And they do open enrollment for benefits.

[00:19:35] So when you ask someone like, hey, what do you think HR does?

[00:19:37] They're not in HR.

[00:19:39] It could be a list of things, you know, payroll, recruiting, training, development.

[00:19:46] Like it's just because people are really the biggest source of competitive, you know, advantage in any organization.

[00:19:54] And you talked about that, you know, at, you know, some of the content on your website, you know, you, you talk about that.

[00:20:01] So my question to you is, if someone has this view about HR that really isn't, you know, generating any revenue, they're not in sales, they're just there to keep people in seats, but fill their positions.

[00:20:18] You know, what, what kind of advice would you give them to be a little bit more open-minded about their HR team or whoever they work with and consider as HR?

[00:20:28] Like, what would you kind of give them as some advice in the organizations?

[00:20:33] Sure.

[00:20:33] Well, if they're the leader who's looking to HR to lead, there's also the opposite perspective of HR who's chopping at the bits to lead and not being allowed to do so.

[00:20:42] If they're the leader, then I think it's a matter of opening up your mind and saying, okay, how do I use HR?

[00:20:50] How do we work with HR in our organization?

[00:20:53] And am I just simply viewing it too simply?

[00:20:56] Or am I not seeing some of the things that they do that really do help us?

[00:21:00] As you said, people are the source of every problem and every challenge and every opportunity in the organization.

[00:21:04] So when something happens, if we want to expand our business, if we want to add a new product, if we want to, you know, improve our customer satisfaction, improve our quality, all of those go back to probably, as you said, training issues, hiring the right people, developing skills and people.

[00:21:20] So HR really is the key lever in all that.

[00:21:24] So maybe as a leader, I might need to change my mindset and then I need to invite my HR leaders to maybe take on a bigger role.

[00:21:32] Now, the truth is, if we've always viewed them as a support function and some of them are comfortable doing that in some organizations, that's all they want.

[00:21:40] But now I'm saying, okay, step up and be innovative and disruptive and think differently.

[00:21:45] I might need to allow them some opportunity to get some training, some skills development themselves.

[00:21:50] It's probably rare that you have somebody who's just chomping at the bits to do that and they're ready to go as soon as you say yes.

[00:21:56] But I think for a lot of leadership, it's we need to think differently about the core of every aspect of our business is people.

[00:22:03] And so we really do want HR leaders who are forward thinking, who are challenging us, who are leading the way, who are helping us to understand change and how that impacts people and what type of people that we meet.

[00:22:15] And what are the challenges that are in the future for the work and the workforce that we're not even thinking about yet?

[00:22:21] And then start to invite your HR leaders to step into that.

[00:22:25] On the flip side, which I get asked almost every time I give a talk or I'm working with someone is I hear from an HR leader who says, I want to be that HR leader, but my leadership won't allow it.

[00:22:38] My response to them often doesn't give them the comfort that they're looking for.

[00:22:43] My response to them often is, how are you demonstrating to them that you have the ability to do that?

[00:22:48] So, for example, a few years ago at the Sherm Annual Conference, I gave a talk on development.

[00:22:56] I don't remember why it was important basically for every company to have leadership development program.

[00:23:00] And a woman came up to me afterwards and said, I'm the VP of HR in my company.

[00:23:04] And I'm so frustrated because I've proposed for two years now that we create a leadership development program and my leadership just won't hear it.

[00:23:14] And they say no every time.

[00:23:15] What do I need to do to get them to pay attention to me?

[00:23:18] And my question to her was, why do you feel like you need a leadership development program?

[00:23:23] Now, I've just given a program about why every company should.

[00:23:25] But I wanted to know from her perspective, why do you feel like you need one?

[00:23:29] And she was kind of taken aback and she said, because it's important.

[00:23:34] Okay, tell me more.

[00:23:36] Well, because I feel like other companies have it and we don't.

[00:23:40] And I said, what I'm getting at is what is the problem that you're trying to solve by proposing a leadership development program?

[00:23:47] Is it that your leaders currently don't have the leadership skills and that's causing business impacts?

[00:23:52] Is it that, you know, you have people that will be retiring or leaving the workforce in the future and you don't have the people skilled up to take their place?

[00:24:01] That is where you're going to get your leadership's attention is when you are able to show them, here's the challenge we're facing or the opportunity that is ahead of us.

[00:24:10] That by implementing a leadership development program, we'll either be able to avoid the problem or take advantage of the opportunity.

[00:24:18] And oh, by the way, we got to work in how we're going to save some money or increase our investment by doing that.

[00:24:24] So for the HR leaders that are often chomping at the bit and saying, I want to do these things, but my leaders won't hear me.

[00:24:31] My response to them is, how are you presenting a business case to them that your ideas need to be heard?

[00:24:36] Because one thing to say HR is the most important person in the company or the role in the company.

[00:24:40] But if you're not, again, stepping into that and saying, here's how I can actually impact the organization.

[00:24:46] We don't need a leadership development program if it doesn't create some impact in the organization that's going to make us more money or save us money or help us avoid a challenge or take advantage of an opportunity.

[00:24:58] What we need to tell our leadership is we need a leadership development program because here's why.

[00:25:04] And it needs to be business oriented, not just because I went to a seminar last week and Jennifer gave a program and said, I need one.

[00:25:11] And so here I am saying we need one.

[00:25:12] I need to know what the business case is in my organization.

[00:25:16] So for a lot of HR leaders who want to step into that role, I think we have to take our focus off the people that are preventing us from doing that and think about what do we need to do to show them that this is the obvious choice to allow me to lead in this area or to change or disrupt this process.

[00:25:36] Because if we stay the same, here's the dangers or here's the pitfalls or here's what's going to cost us in the long run.

[00:25:44] That's the mindset shift that's needed.

[00:25:46] We have to be thinking, you know, what's the business impact of all of the work that we do?

[00:25:51] Hiring and firing and all that stuff.

[00:25:54] Again, those are tactics and activities that HR does.

[00:25:58] But if I want to make changes to my core responsibilities, then it's because I'm trying to move the business forward and I have to show you how I'm going to do that.

[00:26:07] Rarely do you get the opportunity where you just say, trust me, it's going to work.

[00:26:11] And your leadership goes, OK, go for it, Jennifer.

[00:26:15] So there's a responsibility on both sides.

[00:26:17] Again, for leadership, I think, to open up their minds to the opportunity to allow HR to lead and really to think about how they've been asking them to lead, particularly over the last three or four years.

[00:26:27] And then for people in the HR positions to think, I actually have to demonstrate the value that I want to provide.

[00:26:35] I know, I mean, I spent 20 years in corporate HR.

[00:26:37] I started in the 80s when it was called personnel and it was very much an administrative role.

[00:26:42] So I, like many people, have evolved over the years from administrative support to I think I always, again, because I was that little bossy girl in the beginning.

[00:26:54] I was always out there going, I think I can do more.

[00:26:58] But I didn't get good.

[00:27:00] I did a lot of I think we should do this because it's the right thing to do.

[00:27:04] Right.

[00:27:05] You know, on my feet and going, it's the right thing to do.

[00:27:07] Why won't you do this?

[00:27:08] It involves people, you know, people who are most important asset.

[00:27:10] And then I learned both through trial and error and also some great coaching and advice that unless I bring data as to why it's the right thing to do, then my leadership isn't going to listen to me.

[00:27:23] Because in many cases, again, my CEO in my last role came to me and he said, Jennifer, unless you tell me why this is the right business decision, what you're asking me to do is to go to our board of directors and ask for money for you for this.

[00:27:39] Because I need to be able to go to our board of directors.

[00:28:06] HR is involved in pretty much all of it.

[00:28:08] Yeah.

[00:28:09] It's, oh, we got to hire somebody to do marketing.

[00:28:12] We're getting big enough.

[00:28:14] We got to have, you know, we got to have more salespeople.

[00:28:17] Okay.

[00:28:17] Well, how are you going to do that?

[00:28:19] How are you going to hire people?

[00:28:20] Develop them.

[00:28:21] Okay.

[00:28:21] We need to hire these people or we need to develop these people or we need a training program.

[00:28:27] Like at the end of the day, most business challenges are going to involve, you know, they're going to involve HR.

[00:28:33] They're going to involve project-based HR, whatever it is.

[00:28:37] It's crazy.

[00:28:39] And a lot of people don't see that.

[00:28:41] So one piece of advice that I give often in some of my talks and then my coaching is to HR leaders is number one, we should be working on solving business problems and taking advantage of opportunities.

[00:28:53] So how do you know what those are?

[00:28:56] You need to go to your leadership and ask.

[00:28:58] I mean, you probably, hopefully if you're in a leadership role in HR, you know what those are.

[00:29:02] But it's really important for you, and I suggest scheduling, you know, asking for five minutes, seven minutes maybe, from your C-suite leaders, everyone who's leading a function.

[00:29:13] And just say, hey, you know, especially now because it's goal setting time, can I get seven minutes of your time?

[00:29:19] I'd like to ask you a really important question.

[00:29:21] And if you sit down with those leaders and say, okay, here's our goals for 2024 or what we're proposing for 2025 for the company.

[00:29:28] And they're usually increased top line revenue, improved customer satisfaction, you know, improved quality, safety, delivery, whatever it costs.

[00:29:36] You know, there's some five to seven overarching goals.

[00:29:39] And if I ask each one of those C-suite leaders, could you tell me what are the top three things?

[00:29:45] And I suggest three because getting people to fill a list is better than just asking a question.

[00:29:50] What are the top three things that you foresee will cause you difficulty or challenges in hitting those goals in 2025?

[00:29:57] So if our goal is to increase top line revenue in 2025, what are three things that you think will prevent you from potentially hitting that?

[00:30:06] And as you said, David, 100% chance I've offered money.

[00:30:11] Come back and tell me if one of their three answers, if not all three, are not people related.

[00:30:17] Because as you said, it's going to be some version of I don't have enough people.

[00:30:21] I don't have the right people.

[00:30:22] My people don't have the skills.

[00:30:24] I don't have the tools for them to be able to do their job.

[00:30:28] All those are squarely in HR's wheelhouse.

[00:30:31] So, again, it just proves the point as to how critical human resources is to achieving the company's objectives.

[00:30:38] But by asking your leaders that question, it does several things for you.

[00:30:42] One being it builds relationships because it shows them that you're business focused.

[00:30:46] And if you actually work with them to solve those problems that are preventing their teams from hitting the goals of the organization,

[00:30:52] you'll be working to solve the goals of the organization, and you'll be building partnership and trust.

[00:30:58] And that's critical for HR leaders to be able to do the things that we propose is to have those relationships and that trust among our peers and the C-suite.

[00:31:07] So working on solving business problems, understanding what those are, making sure that HR's goals are directly in line with every business goal.

[00:31:17] So I don't want to see an HR team's goals that are all like increase open enrollment time, you know, paperwork bill.

[00:31:24] Implement new HRS system next year.

[00:31:27] Reduce time to fill by one day.

[00:31:29] You know, that's what HR goals are often about.

[00:31:33] What I need to see if our top line goals are increased top line revenue,

[00:31:37] I've talked to the people who have direct impact on that, which are probably sales and marketing and maybe even operations.

[00:31:43] And I've asked them what the challenges are that they will be facing and potentially hitting that, which are more than likely people related.

[00:31:49] And I have a goal that says develop training program for new salespeople.

[00:31:56] Implement new customer retention.

[00:31:59] What's CRM?

[00:31:59] Customer CRM system for whatever.

[00:32:02] You know, it's going to be things that I'm doing.

[00:32:05] Our team is doing.

[00:32:06] Our goals should be focused on what we're doing to help hit those overall goals.

[00:32:10] Sure.

[00:32:11] You still may need to improve open enrollment time, implement a new HRS system.

[00:32:15] All the really the tactics of HR that, you know, it's the trains running on time.

[00:32:19] It's like the example of the CFO and the HR person, the CFO within their department.

[00:32:26] Yeah, we have to pay bills on time.

[00:32:28] Yep.

[00:32:28] That's important.

[00:32:29] But is that ever a top line goal for the finance department?

[00:32:33] I would hope not.

[00:32:33] Right.

[00:32:35] So for the HR team, we should have goals that are, again, you know, the top line goals for the finance department are probably around increasing working capital and helping to get, you know, money in advance or whatever the magic they do in finance.

[00:32:48] Our goals should be top line as well in HR.

[00:32:50] Yeah.

[00:32:52] Will had a question from regarding more smaller businesses.

[00:32:57] So what suggestion or opportunities would you have for a small business, five or fewer employees, owner who is attempting to be their own chief disruptor for HR payroll marketing, etc.?

[00:33:11] Sure.

[00:33:12] Well, I think we're asking that in the positive sense, right?

[00:33:15] That the owner, the owner wears a lot of hats and needs to do all those things.

[00:33:19] I think that owner, that top leader needs to be looking at what are the opportunities for our business and how do I need to think differently?

[00:33:28] Often things that are working well are ripe for disruption because we've never sat down and said, how can we do it better?

[00:33:36] What's changed?

[00:33:37] You know, how many of us, and there probably are still companies out there.

[00:33:41] I don't know that there are probably many, but let's just use the example.

[00:33:44] If there's a company that's still placing ads in the newspaper for their job openings.

[00:33:50] Yeah.

[00:33:50] Maybe that's because they only hire one or two people a year and they've been able to do that.

[00:33:55] Right.

[00:33:55] But maybe they should think differently about how are people hearing about job opportunities today?

[00:34:00] How could I maybe access better talent or, you know, so what can I try differently?

[00:34:04] Maybe I still place the ad in the newspaper, but I also try something differently to see if I can upgrade our process and improve that.

[00:34:13] And again, that's a very simplistic example.

[00:34:15] But I think for an owner of a business, it's often looking at not only what the challenges are and how are we addressing those,

[00:34:21] but what are the things that are working well that maybe we've not revisited in a while to say, is there a way we can, you know,

[00:34:29] a lot's changed over the last four or five years since a global pandemic impacted every single person on the planet.

[00:34:36] Maybe something has changed, you know, in terms of job postings again, maybe, you know, pre 2019, it was indeed.com and, you know, places like that.

[00:34:47] Yeah, we're still posting jobs online, but we moved more from career builder and monster to indeed.

[00:34:52] Well, now maybe indeed is not even the place to be.

[00:34:55] Maybe it is more LinkedIn.

[00:34:57] LinkedIn has been around, but LinkedIn's made a lot of changes in how their job opportunity system works.

[00:35:04] Maybe we need to look at taking more advantage of LinkedIn.

[00:35:07] If we're looking for people like school bus drivers or nurses who probably aren't on LinkedIn, where are those people hanging out today?

[00:35:14] A few years ago, it was Facebook.

[00:35:16] Now it's probably not.

[00:35:17] Maybe we need to think about, although I'm not on TikTok and I'm a special government employee, I wouldn't advise it.

[00:35:23] But maybe we need to do think about TikTok.

[00:35:26] It's funny that, you know, again, I'm on this board with the DOD and they don't allow any DOD employees to have TikTok on their phones, I believe.

[00:35:34] But yet Joe Biden's on TikTok, Kamala Harris is on TikTok.

[00:35:39] That's because they're having to go to where the people are.

[00:35:42] So if we're recruiting in today's environment, maybe we have to think about TikTok because that's where the demographic or the people that we are.

[00:35:51] So long answer to your question, how do we think differently, but not just about challenges or opportunities that are out in the future, but how do we think differently about how we're doing things currently?

[00:36:02] Because there may be a better, faster, cheaper, easier, or maybe in some cases a little bit more challenging way, but better results.

[00:36:10] Right.

[00:36:10] Yeah.

[00:36:11] Yeah.

[00:36:11] And it's one of those things like if you have a growing business and you have 15 employees, it's kind of like when do you hire somebody for HR to handle HR?

[00:36:23] Part-time, consultant-based, you know, use more technology.

[00:36:27] But there's a lot of great technology.

[00:36:29] We're in that technology, but it's one thing to offer the technology, but how are you actually using it and executing it and rolling it out?

[00:36:37] I've had people, and it's funny, they talk about all these platforms they have.

[00:36:41] And it's like, we just never got it off the ground because no one decided to execute the program.

[00:36:47] And so we were paying for all these platforms and it's great stuff, but like we can't even use it because no one's managing it.

[00:36:53] So it's like, you know, an owner of a business, small business is doing a lot more than just running the business.

[00:36:58] They're in HR until they decide to hire somebody and help them take that off of their plate.

[00:37:03] So, you know, it's one of those things.

[00:37:05] I think every business owner or leader, you know, five employees was the example given.

[00:37:10] Hopefully you do have at least a membership with like an employer's resource association or something where you're able to get HR advice on demand.

[00:37:22] And then maybe when you get to 10 or 15 employees, you look at a fractional executive or a consultant that works with your organization.

[00:37:30] You know, what the exact number is when you need to have somebody in house.

[00:37:33] I don't necessarily know.

[00:37:35] It's going to depend on the complexities of your business and, you know, how much work needs to be done people wise.

[00:37:41] But I think you always need to think about what is a reason.

[00:37:44] Just like you think about probably as a business owner.

[00:37:45] Well, when I start my business, I need to have a lawyer.

[00:37:48] I need to have, you know, someone that I can go to to get marketing advice.

[00:37:52] And so maybe you outsource some of that.

[00:37:54] You should really be thinking about that for HR as well.

[00:37:57] I need to have somebody in my Rolodex, virtual Rolodex, cell phone contacts, whatever it is, that when I have an HR question, I can pick up and call.

[00:38:06] And so that's an important, any business owner needs to think about that.

[00:38:11] Yeah.

[00:38:12] Any local SHRM chapter too, you know, there's a lot of people in the HR community, as you see, just with Disrupt HR and SHRM and just being in Cincinnati area, there's just tons of resources.

[00:38:23] So definitely people that aren't utilizing those resources, I would suggest them, like you said.

[00:38:28] So moving into next year, 2025, obviously we have a big election coming up, which, you know, we'll have challenges no matter what happens with all of that.

[00:38:40] But, you know, from an HR perspective, what challenges with HR professionals do you see in 2025 that people can kind of get out in front of?

[00:38:50] They probably are a lot of the same challenges we're already experiencing.

[00:38:53] So if you're not out in front, now's your time to start thinking about getting ahead.

[00:38:57] But truly, the expectations of the workforce have changed dramatically for all generations, especially pre-2020.

[00:39:04] We had a lot of speakers who had made a lot of money talking about all the generations in the workforce and how you need to deal with those damn millennials and all that stuff.

[00:39:12] Well, now it's Gen Z and whatever comes after that.

[00:39:14] But the truth is, every generation has had a shift in their priorities and how they think about work.

[00:39:20] You know, so whether it's the challenges of flexibility in the workplace or work from home or hybrid or remote, the benefits that they expect, what they expect from their leaders.

[00:39:30] They're looking for more empathetic leadership, people who actually, you know, people always wanted to be cared about.

[00:39:35] But being out in front of that is going to require a lot.

[00:39:40] Again, we may have plenty of leaders who are great leaders, but are we helping them to develop the skills that they need to lead a workforce that has changed?

[00:39:49] So for many leaders, that's helping them to grow the skills or get better at leading distributed teams, people who aren't all in the office at the same time, or maybe all of their employees are remote.

[00:40:00] So that's a skill that not many leaders have been very good at before 2020.

[00:40:06] And maybe they're still not good at it because we've never thought about, okay, the world changed.

[00:40:11] How we need to communicate with people change.

[00:40:13] What their expectations are about work have changed.

[00:40:16] Our leadership and the way we lead people needs to change as well.

[00:40:21] So looking into 2025, I think there's a lot to be done in terms of continuous learning and development for everyone, but particularly for leaders.

[00:40:29] And then drill down into the leaders, particularly on those frontline leaders in your organization.

[00:40:34] I was preaching this, have been preaching this for years, but it's even more important now.

[00:40:38] The people who have the second biggest impact in your organization, because remember HR is first, the people who have the second biggest impact in the organization are the frontline leaders.

[00:40:47] Those people that have, you know, spans of control of 10, 20, 25, or maybe sometimes more people who are the first line of communication to people.

[00:40:55] They're often the people that we spend the least on in the company in terms of training and development.

[00:41:01] We're not helping them to become more empathetic leaders who need to understand that when a George Floyd gets murdered and that impacts people differently throughout the workforce.

[00:41:11] Some have, you know, are triggered.

[00:41:13] Some have trauma around it.

[00:41:14] Some are indifferent to it.

[00:41:16] And then those people clash in the workplace and our leaders go, we don't talk about that stuff at work.

[00:41:20] It is life and it is work.

[00:41:23] And we saw that in 2020 where a lot of our leaders were confronted with that challenge and they didn't know how to respond.

[00:41:30] What may not be something that public, that, you know, egregious, but there are things happening in people's lives every day that our leaders don't know how to deal with.

[00:41:40] Many of them, maybe my age or my generation think that's outside of work.

[00:41:45] We don't talk about that.

[00:41:46] But that person is a whole person who brings their whole self to work.

[00:41:49] And so I need to understand how to listen, how to empathize, and then how to direct them to get the support that they need, which is often even for HR leaders.

[00:41:58] And that's where a lot of HR leaders get burned out, where they become the solution to everything.

[00:42:03] You're a HR person, you, the HR people, you're not the solution.

[00:42:06] What you need to know is where you can direct people.

[00:42:09] That might be an EAP program, but really helping people.

[00:42:13] How many of us understand what our EAP program actually provides?

[00:42:18] You know, for HR leaders, maybe it's a knee-jerk response to say, here's the EAP number.

[00:42:24] But what does that actually mean for that person?

[00:42:27] And how do we encourage them to actually take that first step to make that call?

[00:42:31] Again, that might mean training and development for our leaders on that.

[00:42:35] So 2025, leadership development, continuous learning and development for everyone, upskilling, reskilling.

[00:42:40] That's a huge focus.

[00:42:42] And if you're not spending a lot of your time and brainpower on that already, then I would suggest that you, as you're setting your goals for 2025,

[00:42:50] and again, drawing your lines to the business goals, that you're thinking about that.

[00:42:55] Probably the second area that I would mention is, again, the demographics are not in our favor.

[00:43:00] So if you're having trouble hiring people right now, it is not going to get better.

[00:43:06] That's just a fact.

[00:43:07] We can have a recession.

[00:43:08] We can have, you know, downturn and unemployment can go up.

[00:43:11] But the fact is, right now, there are people out there that are looking for work, but they're not a match for your jobs because they don't have the right skills, right?

[00:43:19] So they're applying.

[00:43:20] You'll put a job wherever you're posting your jobs today or letting the world know that you have a job opening, and you might get 100 or 1,000 applications, and you're looking at these going, none of these people are qualified.

[00:43:31] That's because we're not teaching people the skills in education, university, et cetera, that they necessarily need to go work in the workplace today.

[00:43:40] They might get a degree in engineering and come in with some engineering skills, but they don't have the soft skills of being able to communicate with people or to work together as a team.

[00:43:49] My son graduated with two degrees in 2020.

[00:43:54] Yeah, he graduated in 2020 after getting two degrees.

[00:43:57] And when he started applying for jobs or when he actually went to work for a company, he had to start using Excel and Word, and he didn't know how to use those.

[00:44:04] And I'm like, you managed to get through eight years of college and, well, nine years because he co-opted.

[00:44:10] Oh, man.

[00:44:10] No one taught you about using Excel.

[00:44:14] You know, that's just a simple example.

[00:44:16] But they also didn't teach him a lot of other things about how to communicate with your leader, how to, you know, promote your ideas.

[00:44:23] So people are coming into the workplace without the skills that are needed.

[00:44:27] So we need to in HR, again, that's our challenge.

[00:44:30] We're the people experts.

[00:44:32] We are the source of competitive advantage there.

[00:44:34] Are we thinking about upskilling and reskilling new hires, upskilling and reskilling existing employees?

[00:44:40] Half-life, I saw some survey data recently.

[00:44:43] Half-life of skills today is less than two years before that skill is either obsolete or needs to be upgraded.

[00:44:49] Think about your own job, my job as a self-employed entrepreneur.

[00:44:52] What am I doing this year that I didn't even know is in existence in 2024?

[00:44:58] You know, how many of us now are theoretical Zoom experts when in 2019 there was only a small group of people that, you know, if you told somebody you want to talk to them on Zoom, they're like, nah.

[00:45:08] And now he's like, oh, let's have a Zoom call.

[00:45:10] And I'm like, nah, let's go back old school phone call.

[00:45:13] We don't need to see each other.

[00:45:14] Right.

[00:45:14] Right.

[00:45:15] So people, skills, people, leadership, and understanding that hiring is only going to be more difficult.

[00:45:25] So back to the original kind of thesis of what we're talking about.

[00:45:28] We may be getting people today for the jobs that we have available.

[00:45:32] Right.

[00:45:32] That's not going to be the case in the future.

[00:45:34] You are going to hit a point with all of the jobs in your organization where you're saying the people that we're looking at to hire for this role aren't fully baked yet.

[00:45:44] So we're either going to have to make some decisions about how to bake them before we get them.

[00:45:49] So maybe we partner with a local university or a technical school to develop a training program, which one of the organizations I worked at in the past, we partner with a technical school.

[00:45:58] And everyone who was hired in our company went to that school for a couple of months before they came to work in our organization because we had to teach them skills that we knew they didn't have.

[00:46:09] We have to think like that.

[00:46:10] But the good news is, in today's world, there's a lot of learning out there that's available.

[00:46:15] Somebody has to curate that learning, though.

[00:46:17] So if I want to incorporate YouTube videos or Khan Academy or LinkedIn Learning or Udemy or any of these opportunities where there are people out there teaching skills, someone in your organization, probably in HR, needs to say, OK, for new salespeople, we're a company of 25.

[00:46:34] So we don't have a training and development department.

[00:46:36] But by working with the sales manager and the people in the sales team, I can ask them to help me curate some resources where we can provide this to help skill and upskill new salespeople coming into the organization.

[00:46:50] So we just have to think differently about the hiring challenge and about the people development challenge in 2025.

[00:46:57] We should already be thinking that way.

[00:46:59] Yeah.

[00:47:00] No, thank you.

[00:47:01] That was great.

[00:47:03] Another question from Alberta.

[00:47:05] Alberta, one issue is that most of the teamwork and leadership models that we are using were created almost 100 years ago in the mid-20th century.

[00:47:12] Any thoughts on that?

[00:47:14] That's a great point.

[00:47:15] And I know Alberta teaches this stuff.

[00:47:16] So hire him to come and help organizations do that.

[00:47:20] There you go.

[00:47:20] It's a great point.

[00:47:21] And so we need to think about how are we evolving leadership, kind of what I was saying earlier.

[00:47:26] The leadership models of command and control and establishing authority.

[00:47:31] And I was just listening to a podcast this morning while I was getting ready with Adam Grant around charisma and how that can be a real stumbling block for a lot of leaders.

[00:47:40] And I was thinking back to my one of the best leaders I've ever worked for.

[00:47:43] But he was a total cult of personality.

[00:47:47] And there are both advantages and disadvantages to that.

[00:47:50] So to Alberto's point, how does leadership evolve?

[00:47:52] And again, we have to think about people have evolved.

[00:47:56] Their expectations have evolved.

[00:47:57] The pandemic changed us all.

[00:47:59] It changed a lot of our workplaces.

[00:48:01] So the skills that we need to lead people that maybe we see once a year or never are very different.

[00:48:08] You know, I mentioned my son graduated with two degrees.

[00:48:10] Got his job offer in December of 2019 with a large global organization, Fortune 100 company.

[00:48:16] So excited, relocated to Arkansas, went in early March to go buy his house, bought a house, called me and said, the commute is going to be amazing.

[00:48:25] The office is big and beautiful.

[00:48:26] And I'm so excited to be meeting all of my new peers that I'm going to be working with.

[00:48:30] By July of 2020, when he started his role there, they sent everything to his home, the computer, everything to his home.

[00:48:37] He never met his boss in person.

[00:48:39] He never got to meet his peers who were starting at the same time.

[00:48:43] And it all became like instant messaging and, again, Zoom calls and training.

[00:48:47] And his boss actually never put the camera on in the Zoom call, which we learned is a problem.

[00:48:53] And so a couple of months after that, someone who had been so excited to start their new role with a company, to learn, to meet people, to build a network, to, you know, begin to grow their career,

[00:49:04] became at least initially very disheartened because I remember asking him one time, I'm like, something about the culture.

[00:49:11] Like, how do you feel about the culture?

[00:49:13] Because I knew it was a company that was very known for their culture.

[00:49:15] And he said, people mention culture.

[00:49:18] I don't even know what that is.

[00:49:19] I'm here with the cats.

[00:49:20] You know, I just do the work.

[00:49:23] And then when I have a question, I feel bad because I don't want to send an instant message 10 times a day to, you know, someone else that's doing this.

[00:49:32] That requires different leadership.

[00:49:34] Now, maybe it's not that acute now because we've all learned a lot and we are able to see people in person now.

[00:49:41] Yeah.

[00:49:41] Nothing as simple as not having your camera on when you're in team meetings and you're the leader.

[00:49:46] I can create a real disconnect.

[00:49:48] And so that was something that maybe for some people we needed to talk to them about that, to teach them what the impacts of that are,

[00:49:55] to help them see how creating a relationship virtually is more difficult than in person.

[00:50:02] And it requires more.

[00:50:04] You know, in the beginning of the pandemic, we had leaders that probably were doing, you know, if they were in person, they're doing daily stand-ups, you know, six feet away from each other to talk about what's going on,

[00:50:14] to talk about what are the things that we, what are the unknowns?

[00:50:17] What are the knowns?

[00:50:18] What do we plan to do tomorrow?

[00:50:19] Because it's going to be different than today.

[00:50:21] And then we got kind of comfortable and it was, I share this example in some of my presentations.

[00:50:26] I remember because both of my businesses went to zero within like two weeks of March 13th.

[00:50:31] It was like by the end of March, I was like, what is life over?

[00:50:35] I have no speaking engagements.

[00:50:37] Disrupt HR is all about live events.

[00:50:39] Here we are.

[00:50:40] Jennifer is left with no work to do.

[00:50:41] So I'll become a student.

[00:50:44] I'll try to learn and get better.

[00:50:45] And so I remember one day reading a headline online.

[00:50:48] I've long used the Gallup engagement data in some of my presentations and have made fun of it in a way because they've been tracking it for over 20 years.

[00:50:58] And, you know, I'll show the chart up there.

[00:51:00] For over 20 years, the percentage of engaged people has never really moved more than 1% plus or minus in any direction.

[00:51:08] So it's 28%, 29%, 27%, 30%.

[00:51:10] And yet we talk about employee engagement all the time.

[00:51:13] So imagine my surprise in April of 2020 when I'm, you know, the whole world's upside down.

[00:51:18] I see a headline online that says Gallup reports record employee engagement.

[00:51:24] And I'm like, what the heck is going on?

[00:51:26] The world is falling apart and people are more engaged than ever.

[00:51:29] So I obviously click on that and I got to read it.

[00:51:31] And I think it went up to like 36%, you know, which was a big jump considering that it had not gone up.

[00:51:36] And when they dug deeper into the data, a lot of what they attributed it to, some of that was, you know, shared experience, survivor.

[00:51:45] We're all in this together.

[00:51:48] But a lot of it was is the more frequent communication by leaders.

[00:51:53] Visibility by leadership and communication by leaders was at its highest it's ever been.

[00:51:57] We're having daily Zoom meetings where, you know, somebody's sitting in their bedroom floor and they're like, do you have the tools that you need?

[00:52:03] Are your kids okay?

[00:52:04] Are you okay?

[00:52:05] Are you guys staying safe?

[00:52:06] What can I do to support you?

[00:52:08] So we were doing everything we could to stay in touch with people.

[00:52:11] And we were saying things as leaders like, we don't necessarily know if this is going to work, but we're going to try it.

[00:52:16] And yesterday we tried this and it didn't work.

[00:52:19] So here's what we're going to do now.

[00:52:20] So it was constant communication, constant vision sharing, constant checking in with people and caring about their well-being.

[00:52:27] And then, like most things, we started saying, well, we've been doing this for a couple months now.

[00:52:33] It's not over yet.

[00:52:34] So we don't need to have daily meetings now, maybe every other meeting, every other day.

[00:52:38] And then it became once a week.

[00:52:40] And then it could be call me if you need me.

[00:52:42] Here's me.

[00:52:43] And so by September of 2020, and again, George Floyd's murder happened about that time.

[00:52:49] I bring that up because it was a big impact in the workplace.

[00:52:53] But I remember seeing the headline around September of 2020 from Gallup that said, record drop in employee engagement.

[00:53:00] And I'm like, oh, my gosh, we've lost the magic.

[00:53:03] What is this?

[00:53:03] So obviously you click on the link, you dive deeper.

[00:53:05] What they attributed it to was we were communicating less because it had become routine.

[00:53:11] And also back to what I said earlier, managers were not fully able to help support their employees through a crisis situation that impacted them in ways that we had never really experienced before as a collective.

[00:53:27] So less communication, less visibility, less ability to actually have the empathy that people needed.

[00:53:35] That demonstrates, again, that leadership needs to evolve.

[00:53:39] So back to the original question, that is not in the model from 100 years ago about how to care for your people when something that didn't happen to them directly but has a tremendous impact on them.

[00:53:52] Or how to stay visible and communicate with people without having to be on a Zoom call every day.

[00:53:58] But understanding that if they're not in the office and able to do the drive-bys and the drop-ins and the let's have a cup of coffee together, I'm going to have to think differently about how I just touch base with people, to use the corporate phrase.

[00:54:11] You know, maybe it is.

[00:54:12] I know at one point I had an employee, you know, obviously pre-work from home, remote, all that.

[00:54:18] A relatively new employee, administrative assistant, came into my office one day, closed the door and said she needed to talk to me.

[00:54:24] And she said, I just want to let you know I'm going to be resigning.

[00:54:27] And I'm like, you know, surprised.

[00:54:30] I didn't know that there was a problem.

[00:54:31] And I said, well, tell me more.

[00:54:33] You know, you've only been here a few months.

[00:54:35] You know, why are you choosing to leave?

[00:54:36] And she said, I don't feel like you know what I do.

[00:54:42] And immediately, I'm human.

[00:54:43] I was like, I'm the VP of HR.

[00:54:45] You're the administrative assistant.

[00:54:47] I mean, I assigned you to work, but I don't do.

[00:54:50] But that's not what I said.

[00:54:51] I said, help me understand when you say I don't know what you do.

[00:54:55] I mean, I walk by you every day.

[00:54:57] I ask how you're doing.

[00:54:58] I'm here if you need me.

[00:54:59] And she said, you never stop in and ask me what I'm working on.

[00:55:03] You never ask me how the project is going.

[00:55:05] You and Amy, you guys just kind of take things and run with it.

[00:55:08] But I need a little more guidance.

[00:55:10] And I'd like for you to check in with me more.

[00:55:13] And you don't do that.

[00:55:14] Well, my philosophy was I'm available.

[00:55:16] I'm right down the hall.

[00:55:17] I tell you I'm available.

[00:55:18] I assume if you need me, you'll come get me.

[00:55:20] But it was a good lesson for me.

[00:55:22] You know, I think I had seven or eight people on my team at that time.

[00:55:25] And again, Amy, who she mentioned, was a lot like me.

[00:55:27] I just give you your assignment and you go.

[00:55:29] I'm here if you need me.

[00:55:30] And she did.

[00:55:31] But for the others on their team, on the team, maybe they needed more of a check in.

[00:55:36] So I was old school.

[00:55:38] I said, OK, thank you, first of all, for telling me that.

[00:55:41] She'd already made her decision.

[00:55:42] So, you know, wish her well and help her to move on.

[00:55:45] But I need to change as a leader because what I realized 18 years into my leadership career was not everybody on my team wants to be managed like me.

[00:55:55] I actually put it on my calendar.

[00:55:57] If I have seven people on my team, then I put a little note on my calendar at some point every week to check in with seven of them.

[00:56:06] If I haven't, you know, maybe we had a performance discussion or something.

[00:56:10] So we don't necessarily do that.

[00:56:11] It would mean, you know, at 105 today, I'm going to get up and walk out there and see Susie and say, hey, what?

[00:56:19] Tell me, you know, can you give me an update on how the project's going?

[00:56:22] Do you need any resources?

[00:56:23] Can I support you?

[00:56:24] How was your weekend?

[00:56:25] You know, your kid's in a soccer tournament.

[00:56:27] I need to because I'm not wired that way.

[00:56:30] I like to be given an assignment and trusted and leave me alone.

[00:56:32] Don't bother me.

[00:56:33] Yeah.

[00:56:34] Not everybody wants to be managed that way.

[00:56:35] I, as a leader, had to make a decision to manually put in systems so that I could behave differently.

[00:56:42] I think as leaders, we have to think, how do we need to behave differently?

[00:56:48] What skills?

[00:56:49] You know, again, empathy is a muscle.

[00:56:50] I keep bringing it up.

[00:56:51] DDI did a leadership survey.

[00:56:54] I believe it was last year where they asked 24,000 global leaders what the most important leadership skill was.

[00:56:59] And empathy was by far the most important leadership skill they identified.

[00:57:04] Yep.

[00:57:05] Well, some people think you either have it or you don't.

[00:57:07] You know, I'm not empathetic.

[00:57:08] Just don't come to me with your stuff.

[00:57:09] You know, well, you need to be empathetic because that's what people are expecting from leaders today.

[00:57:14] And it is a muscle.

[00:57:15] It can be developed.

[00:57:16] So you need to say, I'm not currently empathetic.

[00:57:19] I'm not good at it.

[00:57:20] So how can I develop that skill and that muscle?

[00:57:23] Might be through some training courses.

[00:57:25] It might be through a coach.

[00:57:26] It might be asking some trusted people on my team or my peers to kind of give me a nudge when I need to demonstrate more empathetic leadership or to tell me when I've done well.

[00:57:37] You know, we need to do both.

[00:57:39] Exactly.

[00:57:39] Well, and you bring up a good segue into this QR code that I wanted to bring up.

[00:57:45] This is to your link for a personal brand workbook.

[00:57:50] So anybody that is watching, you can scan this, go out to her website, Jennifer McClure, and get this awesome several page assignment worksheet that goes through just trying to get to know and understand yourself a little more.

[00:58:07] So I downloaded it and I kind of looked at it.

[00:58:11] So it really does ask.

[00:58:12] And you can create your personal brand.

[00:58:14] So if you haven't done something like this, it might be something to try to do over the next couple of months.

[00:58:19] Start next year, right, with more of a personal brand, bigger initiatives for yourself and your career, HR, whatever it is.

[00:58:26] So if you are on still, scan this QR code and you'll get this in your email.

[00:58:31] And yeah, anything else you want to add to that?

[00:58:34] Yeah.

[00:58:34] Some people may say, okay, why somebody whose focus is on talent strategies and leadership talking about personal branding?

[00:58:40] And I think a lot of people, I've been talking about personal branding for all 15 years of my speaking because I feel like it's such an important aspect that a lot of leaders miss.

[00:58:51] They think, well, I'll just stay, you know, and I did this for years.

[00:58:53] I'll just stay in the four walls and do good work because I'm needed here and I don't need to go out and network.

[00:58:58] I don't need to build a reputation for myself outside the company.

[00:59:02] The truth is you do, especially in today's world, because people are researching companies and their leaders before they apply for jobs.

[00:59:10] They want to work for good leaders.

[00:59:12] They want to work for leaders who are doing great work in the community.

[00:59:15] And if they look you up on LinkedIn, it's still so frustrating to me because, again, I use LinkedIn thousands of times a day.

[00:59:20] And with Disrupt HR, every speaker that has a video, we get their LinkedIn profile because we want to tag them if they have a top five video and all that.

[00:59:29] And just yesterday, I was going uploading some of the videos and one of the speakers didn't have a LinkedIn profile.

[00:59:34] And I'm just like, how?

[00:59:35] How?

[00:59:36] How?

[00:59:37] And again, if I'm going to work, you know, maybe that company and I, you know, this person wasn't, it was like a training director or group benefits manager was their title.

[00:59:47] Yeah.

[00:59:47] Let's say I'm applying for a job as a benefits administrator in that company and I go online and I can't find the hiring manager or I can't find anyone in the benefits department.

[00:59:57] Then I immediately be like, is this company backwards?

[01:00:01] You know, what's going on?

[01:00:03] So I just I talk about personal branding because I think it is a leadership skill.

[01:00:07] You need to really be intentional about understanding what your focus is, what you're good at, what you're known for.

[01:00:15] That can be a helpful exercise to go through that workbook because I know I've done it a few times where, you know, some of the exercises in there, I'm like, I'm actually known for something that I don't want to do anymore.

[01:00:26] I want to be more known for something else.

[01:00:28] So what do I need to do?

[01:00:30] I need to create a plan for if I want people to know me for that, then I need to create content about that.

[01:00:35] I need to speak about that.

[01:00:36] I need to write about it.

[01:00:37] I need to go on podcasts and talk about it.

[01:00:40] So if my new keynote for 2025 is that I want to encourage HR leaders to be the chief disruption officer in their organization, and I am probably going to try to write a book around that, then I need to start talking about that now.

[01:00:53] So I did a talk about it.

[01:00:55] I wrote about it in my newsletter on LinkedIn.

[01:00:57] I'm going to talk about it here on this podcast with you because when people think about disruptive HR leadership, I want them to think of me.

[01:01:07] And that's why personal branding is important.

[01:01:10] Yeah.

[01:01:10] No, this has been great.

[01:01:12] I really appreciate your insights, Jennifer.

[01:01:14] I could talk for a lot longer and I appreciate all your time today.

[01:01:19] It was an honor to have you on.

[01:01:20] And so I really appreciate everyone tuning in from all over the world today.

[01:01:23] We had people from Brazil, Ohio, Texas, and a couple other.

[01:01:30] Yeah.

[01:01:31] So anybody out there that have not looked up Disrupt HR, Jennifer McClure, a lot of great content out there.

[01:01:39] So find her on LinkedIn, Disrupt HR, maybe locally where you are.

[01:01:44] So thanks for your time, Jennifer.

[01:01:46] I really appreciate it.

[01:01:47] And hopefully we'll talk real soon and you have a great rest of your day.

[01:01:50] All right.

[01:01:51] Thank you for the opportunity to share.

[01:01:52] And thanks to everybody that joined today.

[01:01:54] Yep.

[01:01:54] Take care.