Prashanie Dharmadasa | Bringing Sun Tzu to Modern Leadership, Teams Need to Win, and an ABBA mashup

[00:00:22] This is Andrew Gadomski and welcome to the Reciprocity Podcast. I am your host and I am here with Prashanie Dharmadasa and she is joining us all the way from the United Kingdom.

[00:00:41] And I'm still here in New Jersey so she's been very gracious in her time. Prashanie and I have known each other for any number of years and it's our pleasure to have her on the show. Hello Prashanie.

[00:00:57] Hello Andrew and thank you for having me. It's good to see you again.

[00:01:01] Yes, thank you. As our listeners know, this podcast is all about how our guests give and get and what they learn from their occupation. Prashanie, why don't you tell us a little bit about your elevator story? Why don't you give us a little bit more about you?

[00:01:19] Thank you, Andrew. I'll be delighted. Hi everyone. I'm Prashanie from the last century. I'm based in London and I'm proud to say I'm a British Sri Lankan. Hence, you might actually see the infinite number of vowels in my name.

[00:01:35] But actually, fun fact, Andrew, when you spell my name in Sinhalese, it's only three letters long, which is Prashanie.

[00:01:43] So I thought that was quite interesting and it always amuses me to see people trying to figure that out.

[00:01:49] By day, I'm chief of staff for EMEA and LATAM at LinkedIn.

[00:01:53] And I'm also the founder of Sora3 and SoraZ, where I work with senior executives to bring their go-to-market strategies to life and help sales teams to drive customer value through C-suite engagement.

[00:02:08] And then the final piece is I'm also a mom to a Gen Z who's now 24 and he keeps me grounded.

[00:02:16] And he also inspired me to set up the work that I do for SoraZ, which is a coaching and mentoring program specifically designed for Gen Zs to develop the new future leaders in waiting.

[00:02:32] Fantastic. The first question I have for you, Prashani, is about leadership.

[00:02:37] Can you talk about a trader technique you've learned from someone else that you've then been able to execute yourself for success?

[00:02:47] Yeah, absolutely. When it comes to leadership, I've been fortunate to work with some incredible leaders in my time and I continue to do so.

[00:02:58] I guess one of the traits that I certainly have picked up along the way and it has served me very well is a trait called intellectual empathy.

[00:03:08] What I mean by that is when you are engaging with not just leaders, but when you're engaging with anyone for that matter,

[00:03:17] it's really understanding the broader context in the world that they operate in.

[00:03:23] And if I think of a specific example when it comes to engaging with more senior leaders and kind of C-level execs,

[00:03:32] it's really about understanding them not just in the economic and business landscape they serve in,

[00:03:42] but it's also about tuning into the unspoken realities that they are grappling with.

[00:03:48] So, for example, I remember actually speaking with one C-level exec who was driving this amazing and quite high profile digital transformation in their organization.

[00:04:00] And surface of it and externally looking in, it was so incredibly exciting.

[00:04:06] There was a lot to be optimistic and a lot to be, I guess, excited about.

[00:04:13] But when you are a leader going through and managing change, it's about really understanding what does this reality mean to them as individuals and from an emotional as well as a political standpoint.

[00:04:25] So it's about just really tuning into things like what does this change mean to this executive?

[00:04:32] Could it be that he or she is facing internal resistance to change, challenging stakeholders?

[00:04:39] You know, how are they thinking about empowering and engaging their teams to go on that same journey?

[00:04:44] Or it might even be balancing the pressures of short term investor expectations and the long term transformation journey.

[00:04:52] I think that has really served me well to be able to apply in my own mind whenever I'm engaging with somebody to understand not just the business and the economic context,

[00:05:03] but certainly from a personal as well as a political kind of organizational standpoint, what they are actually experiencing.

[00:05:12] And I have found that it's actually brought a lot of depth into my relationships.

[00:05:17] I really like this. It's almost like a set of questions, a set of conditions, a set of considerations that leaders may not think of.

[00:05:27] It's almost like a framework.

[00:05:29] I remember years ago, there was a project manager who I worked with right after 9-11 in rebuilding the utility grid,

[00:05:38] the electrical and the gas grid in lower Manhattan after the towers fell.

[00:05:45] He had introduced a very particular framework around project management.

[00:05:51] And it kind of systematically went through a number of factors and a number of considerations managers wouldn't have considered.

[00:06:00] And to identify these yellow flags and these red flags and these influences that could come in.

[00:06:07] And I found it to be fascinating.

[00:06:09] He actually had a cool little tool and it went through a hundred different ways of thinking because it was things that you just mentioned.

[00:06:20] Let's say, don't forget this or what about this?

[00:06:24] And sometimes I think we're so quick and under pressure for decisions that we forget what factors could actually impact the decisions that we made.

[00:06:33] We didn't consider before we made them.

[00:06:38] Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:06:40] And that's where the empathy piece actually comes in as well.

[00:06:43] Oftentimes we expect leaders to know it all, but actually it's also understanding and appreciating their humanity as well.

[00:06:52] They are people just like us.

[00:06:54] That's right.

[00:06:54] They have the same dreams and the same desires and the same ambitions.

[00:06:58] And it's just kind of, I suppose, looking at them as a whole individual and not just a leader or an exec who's there to serve one purpose.

[00:07:11] Yeah.

[00:07:17] Okay.

[00:07:18] Food.

[00:07:20] Yes.

[00:07:21] Very topic.

[00:07:22] Yeah, I know.

[00:07:22] Right.

[00:07:22] It's a fun topic.

[00:07:23] So tell me about a food that you make or buy for others that you believe when you give it to them makes them feel love for you.

[00:07:34] Or tell me about something that you receive that makes you feel love from them.

[00:07:40] Okay.

[00:07:40] Well, I will give you two as a bonus.

[00:07:45] So as you know, Andrew, I'm British Sri Lankan.

[00:07:49] Very proud of it.

[00:07:50] And food is a huge part of my heritage, certainly growing up.

[00:07:56] And I think as I've now kind of discovered, I love nothing more than hosting dinner parties, especially at this time of year, you know, when you have your Christmas lights and all of that.

[00:08:07] And last year, actually, I invented a couple of desserts with some really new, interesting flavor combinations.

[00:08:16] One of them was a dragon fruit and blackberry Oreo cheesecake, which went down a treat.

[00:08:27] That sounds excellent because dragon fruit has got this unique yet mild set of flavors, but you're contrasting it with the crunch of the Oreo and that sweetness.

[00:08:38] And the sharpness of that blackberry.

[00:08:40] Yeah.

[00:08:41] And then the second one I stumbled upon just by accident.

[00:08:45] It's.

[00:08:46] Taking a bowl of vanilla ice cream and just drizzling some chili jam on it.

[00:08:52] If you haven't tried it, you absolutely should because it is a flavor combination quite like any other.

[00:09:00] So I would highly recommend that.

[00:09:03] That's a great one.

[00:09:04] I remember when Sharon and I were in Sorrento years ago in Italy, and we were introduced to this concept of using vanilla gelato, then covering it with either very good balsamic vinegar or limoncello.

[00:09:23] Oh, sounds divine.

[00:09:25] And it's something so simple, right?

[00:09:28] Vanilla ice cream is global and simple and it's easy to make, but then it's what you add to it that creates that memory.

[00:09:35] Absolutely.

[00:09:36] And my second one, if I may.

[00:09:39] Yes.

[00:09:39] Is it's my mom's Sri Lankan dry fish curry that she makes.

[00:09:44] And honestly, I don't think I could ever get it to that standard of perfection as she does.

[00:09:51] A fun fact, actually, I don't have any recipe books.

[00:09:55] I don't own any recipe books other than my mom's own one, which, by the way, she published at the age of 71, which we're all very proud of.

[00:10:04] Growing up in Sri Lanka, I used to watch my grandmother cook.

[00:10:08] And as a child, I remember she used to put all of the raw ingredients and she used to get me to try and taste each raw spice, raw ingredient.

[00:10:18] And now as a byproduct of that, I can pretty much differentiate most spices or most flavors in any dish.

[00:10:28] Oh, wow.

[00:10:29] And I can recreate those dishes just based on tasting.

[00:10:33] And so that's a unique gift my grandmother passed on to me.

[00:10:38] So, yeah, food is huge in my cup.

[00:10:40] And you just pass that on to a number of other people.

[00:10:43] That's a really great concept of understanding each individual ingredient.

[00:10:54] Okay, mental focus.

[00:10:55] How do you keep the focus at work?

[00:10:59] And do you have a model?

[00:11:01] Where did it come from?

[00:11:04] I do, actually.

[00:11:05] As a chief of staff for EMEA and LATAM, you can imagine the expansiveness of the region.

[00:11:14] You know, there's well over 150 countries that fall under those two regions.

[00:11:20] And with it comes its own complexities as well.

[00:11:24] I was speaking with my principal and a few of the leadership team a few months ago.

[00:11:30] And a model that I apply, and I don't know who actually devised it or invented this because I would love to credit the person.

[00:11:39] But I can't take credit for it myself because I didn't.

[00:11:43] But it's a model that we call decision, voice and process control.

[00:11:47] And in my role, a big part of it entails driving alignment, making sure that all of our cross-functional partners are moving towards the same direction.

[00:12:00] When it comes to interacting and engaging with our global leaders and our regional leaders, there are a lot of asks that are coming at them all the time.

[00:12:11] And I started to sense frustration when leaders were spending time on activities and things were not getting pushed through or their voices were not necessarily taken into account or opinions.

[00:12:25] And this, I saw, was causing a lot of pain in the region and a lot of frustration.

[00:12:30] So the decision, voice and process control model is such a simple framework.

[00:12:35] It basically says decision control as a dimension is really understanding what are the activities that you yourself or a leader or whoever has the power or the influence over the final decision.

[00:12:51] The process control is the individual may not necessarily have power over influencing the final decision, but they have autonomy to be flexible in how they implement that decision.

[00:13:06] So the process in how they implement it.

[00:13:09] The voice control dimension is where you don't have decision control and you don't have voice process control.

[00:13:17] The only area that you share is your opinion, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's going to be applied or it's going to change anything.

[00:13:28] So when I started to apply this model in my day to day and with the leaders that I work with,

[00:13:35] I realized that a lot of the frustration was coming because leaders were operating in the voice control dimension,

[00:13:43] thinking that they were in the decision control dimension.

[00:13:45] So they were spending a lot of time trying to influence and trying to share their views and trying to change certain processes, etc.

[00:13:53] And this is where I found that the biggest cause of frustration was.

[00:13:58] So I rolled this out with the leadership team and we started to then really narrow down on the decision control phase or the dimension where they were proactive in terms of knowing that they can actually influence a final decision.

[00:14:17] That made them feel like a part of the solution and reduced the noise and the frustration that they were feeling because their voices weren't being heard.

[00:14:29] And with the process control, you know, in our region, obviously we have global priorities, but how we implement them,

[00:14:37] we do have a sense of freedom to do it according to our local nuances and our local markets, right?

[00:14:44] So this is really where I steered everyone to really focus their attention on is the decision control and the process control.

[00:14:53] Let's leave out the voice control because that's just noise.

[00:14:56] And that's actually worked really, really well.

[00:15:00] And I'm now rolling this out amongst our cross-functional partners in how they communicate.

[00:15:05] We know that everything is hitting our desks is going to be ones that we can actually bring a high degree of impact.

[00:15:14] I like this idea of it's almost different sets of glasses that you're looking through and it's very focused.

[00:15:22] One of the things that I've told analysts over time is that there's a series of decisions and influences that you need to realize you don't need to bring into the room.

[00:15:35] Leadership and those with the P&L responsibility and the decision responsibility ultimately understand how much and when.

[00:15:43] So you don't try to influence on that.

[00:15:47] Be in the position to understand the what and the why and the how.

[00:15:53] If you're not coming in with the what, the why, and the how, why is your expertise in the room?

[00:16:00] Because likely the person making the decision has assumed that you've done the work to bring the options to bear.

[00:16:08] Now they may ask you, what do you think?

[00:16:10] Well, I think that this might be the ranking or we've eliminated these ideas, but take that influence that you believe is important and then focus in on what you're supposed to do and recognize who's making the decision and so on.

[00:16:26] I really like that framework you've outlined.

[00:16:35] Movie, play, musical, poem, or book.

[00:16:38] What speaks to you and how you experienced it more than once?

[00:16:47] What speaks to me?

[00:16:49] This was a really interesting one, actually, because for me, I think when it comes to books, I love Asian philosophy.

[00:16:58] I am a huge fan of The Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu.

[00:17:03] Yeah.

[00:17:03] I love Sun Tzu's Art of War.

[00:17:07] These philosophers, when I think about it, they were so ahead of their time.

[00:17:13] When I think about some of the kind of doctrines that have been written by Sun Tzu in The Art of War,

[00:17:22] it's actually really looking beyond the words, but really, truly understanding the meanings.

[00:17:27] One of his most famous quotes was winning without fighting.

[00:17:32] So what does that even mean?

[00:17:34] It doesn't necessarily translate into the battlefield of today, but if we look at the broader context, it's about collaboration.

[00:17:42] It's about bringing people together.

[00:17:45] It's about innovation and strategic partnerships, aligning with new businesses and new markets without overt rivalry.

[00:17:54] That is pretty sophisticated, I think, for someone going way back to have even that sort of a mindset.

[00:18:04] Another chapter that really speaks to me is chapter number six, weak points and strong focus on finding vulnerability and strengths in adversaries.

[00:18:16] So, again, although this may not necessarily translate into that battlefield context, it's about identifying the gaps that we see in business today, gaps in competition,

[00:18:29] and really understanding how we can position ourselves against the competition.

[00:18:37] And then I think the final chapter that really resonated with me is the use of spies, which is chapter 13.

[00:18:45] I think if I imagine back in the day of Sun Tzu, I'm imagining these spies just trailing around the streets of China and infiltrating into various empires.

[00:18:57] If you look at it today, the translation of that applies to gathering intelligence.

[00:19:02] That's right.

[00:19:03] In terms of market research, competitor analysis, and really leveraging data to make informed decisions.

[00:19:11] I actually think there is so much more we can learn and remind ourselves through some of the ancient philosophies that have already been written.

[00:19:21] That is a book that I go back to over and over again when I need to feel grounded.

[00:19:27] I'm a fan of both.

[00:19:29] I remember reading Lao Tzu when I was very young.

[00:19:33] I was a teenager.

[00:19:34] Not much has changed in terms of identifying your vulnerabilities.

[00:19:39] What are your assets?

[00:19:41] What risks are you carrying?

[00:19:44] What strategies and tactics have worked and not worked?

[00:19:48] Do you have environmental scanning intelligence that helps you then look back on those other items and realize this vulnerability?

[00:19:58] We self-identified it.

[00:20:00] Now that we have the intelligence, we recognize that we have additional vulnerabilities.

[00:20:05] I love the Eastern philosophy reference.

[00:20:08] That's fantastic.

[00:20:15] So as a chief of staff, you have to do this a lot.

[00:20:18] I'm sure you have to do the briefing out now.

[00:20:20] You have no time.

[00:20:21] It's, hey, we need you to jump into this meeting and talk about something that we didn't prep you on.

[00:20:27] So tell me about how you do that.

[00:20:30] It sounds to me like you've been a fly on my walls too many times, Andrew.

[00:20:35] Well, I do.

[00:20:36] I do work for the U.S. federal government, although everything on this is my opinion.

[00:20:41] That doesn't mean that I don't get brought into and brief out people very quickly.

[00:20:47] Well, it's interesting because there are some very strong synergies and commonalities in the role of a chief of staff, regardless of whether it's in government or defense or corporate.

[00:20:59] But I guess the pressures are all the same.

[00:21:03] Right.

[00:21:04] So I often get this time sensitive or time poor requests coming my way, asking for immediate information.

[00:21:12] Information.

[00:21:13] I think for me, the way that I would typically approach that is anchor on the objective, going with a very, very clear view on what the objective is and the message you want to get across.

[00:21:29] We talked about intelligent empathy, you know, having empathy and not getting frustrated because of this last minute nature of the request.

[00:21:39] These things happen.

[00:21:41] I think having that openness will serve you well because I think it's our own resistance sometimes that can hold us back.

[00:21:52] I would then look at doing a really quick mental audit to rapidly assess what are the most pressing needs of this particular executive?

[00:22:04] What do they want to get out of this briefing and what is their desired outcome?

[00:22:09] And then deliver the meeting with clarity and precision.

[00:22:14] No fluff.

[00:22:15] That is one thing that I have learned because sometimes when I think about myself, the version before, you know, going back earlier on in my career,

[00:22:27] I used to feel like I needed to give as much information as I possibly could because I felt that was what was needed.

[00:22:33] But actually, I've come to learn that you need to be really concise and you need to be really short and keep it to bullets.

[00:22:42] I think that is really important and it's quite easy to absorb.

[00:22:46] And then the last piece is really end with what is the strategic value that you want to drive and the call to action and next steps.

[00:22:56] I think that is also really important.

[00:22:58] I think it's really breaking it down in your own mind around what is the objective and understanding more about the actual leader themselves, what's on their agenda and how can you alleviate and almost fast track some of the conversations that they want to have and the role that you play when you're briefing them.

[00:23:25] One thing I would also add is oftentimes, again, this goes back to my point around not having too much information and keeping it quite concise.

[00:23:37] I have seen in certain situations, the temptation is there to go into a massive data dump on various executives.

[00:23:44] But you've also got to be respectful that their mental capacity and make sure the most important statistics, only the most important insights that they need.

[00:23:56] When I brief my execs, it's on me to make sure that they have that information and they're able to deliver it in the most compelling way.

[00:24:06] There's similarities from what you just said and what other season one individual said.

[00:24:13] I think the other thing that I've learned about briefing out now is that doesn't mean solving now.

[00:24:20] There's a pressure to walk into a room and say, this is what you need to do.

[00:24:24] That may not be why you're there.

[00:24:26] Yeah.

[00:24:26] There's a temptation.

[00:24:29] If you want me to solve, that might require more than me having five minutes of think time.

[00:24:34] So I'm going to decline solving it right now.

[00:24:39] Absolutely.

[00:24:39] And I think also when you are in a briefing situation, let's say you are briefing a C-level exec who is meeting with a customer.

[00:24:50] I think there also needs to be space allowed for relationship building and building of rapport as well.

[00:24:58] So it's not just about briefing my own leader.

[00:25:02] It's also understanding who my leader is also going to be meeting at the end and what their motivations are in order to make it successful.

[00:25:10] It needs to be a balanced approach.

[00:25:13] One person can't be doing all of the talking.

[00:25:16] We need to allow it to be collaborative and focused on relationship building as well.

[00:25:27] Which class, primary, secondary, professional, personal, made you raise your hand the most and ask questions?

[00:25:35] As you know, Andrew, I'm an artist outside of my day job.

[00:25:42] Art class was the easiest class I could raise my hand in.

[00:25:46] I'll focus on the classes that I wasn't confident in raising my hand.

[00:25:50] And those were more kind of the technical and the mathematical kind of classes because I wasn't that way inclined.

[00:26:00] My left brain is significantly smaller than my right brain.

[00:26:04] But if I think about that metaphorical moment where I raised my hand in a work context,

[00:26:13] I guess for me is just being able to take calculated risks.

[00:26:18] And one of the things that I remember actually quite early on in my career,

[00:26:23] I was in my late 20s and I was working for a recruitment process outsourcing firm.

[00:26:29] I worked for a phenomenal CEO.

[00:26:32] She's one of these leaders who you come across in life that can actually leave a thumbprint on your career.

[00:26:38] She kind of gave me quite a significant responsibility of developing out an HRD network.

[00:26:48] And we used to run think tanks.

[00:26:50] I was very junior at the time, but she believed in me.

[00:26:54] And the way that she kind of guided me and coached me made it very easy for me to raise my hand up and say,

[00:27:02] yes, I want to do this, knowing that I probably have very little idea of what this entails,

[00:27:08] but I'm just going to go ahead and do it and figure it out.

[00:27:10] So she gave me that psychological safety to be able to do that.

[00:27:14] And when I started to actually build out this HRD, CHRO network in London, it grew very quickly.

[00:27:25] It also started to lead to some very important engagements that resulted in new clients.

[00:27:33] So my CEO actually saw the value in it and she was heavily invested in it as well.

[00:27:38] And then she said, well, you know what?

[00:27:42] The Benelux market is going to be our next market.

[00:27:47] The buying behaviors are very similar to the UK market.

[00:27:51] The market readiness is absolutely there.

[00:27:54] Culturally, we're sort of similar from a cultural standpoint.

[00:27:58] Go away and do it.

[00:27:59] So I applied all of my learnings of watching her and being in her shadow.

[00:28:05] And I managed to grow that CHRO network as well, which again, then meant it gathered a lot more momentum

[00:28:12] in how we sold our services.

[00:28:16] And it really helped differentiate us.

[00:28:18] I think the most defining moment in all of that, which again, I raised my hand up for and not thinking twice,

[00:28:26] was when she said, pack your bags, we're going to do this in Hong Kong.

[00:28:29] And you were going to be doing it.

[00:28:34] So that was exciting.

[00:28:37] That was daunting.

[00:28:39] I think at the time I felt hugely conflicted because my son was only probably about six or seven.

[00:28:46] But having to commit to that and sort of doing that, you know, traveling so frequently as a single mom at the time,

[00:28:56] as a young single mom was challenging.

[00:28:59] But, you know, with the support of my wonderful family, I was able to kind of fulfill that ambition.

[00:29:05] And what that gave me was a really, really unique vantage point and perspective on how businesses and companies manifest across the different regions

[00:29:19] and the different trends and the different cultural nuances as well.

[00:29:25] And so much so that even to this day, I reflect back on the learnings because of the innate ability that I have developed through that,

[00:29:38] you know, by just saying yes to this opportunity and experiencing it and failing as well.

[00:29:46] I mean, it wasn't all roses and rainbows.

[00:29:49] It was some very hard, painful lessons.

[00:29:53] But, you know, you come out of it with your battle scars and hopefully a few medals to show at the end of it.

[00:30:01] So that was actually probably one of my most notable and memorable experiences.

[00:30:13] Let's move on to community and or conflict.

[00:30:17] So I'd like you to pick one.

[00:30:19] And how do you create community amongst a team or how do you diffuse conflict that's within that team?

[00:30:29] Don't do the thing where you say I have both.

[00:30:32] Pick one.

[00:30:32] No, just one.

[00:30:34] Just one this time.

[00:30:35] I think growth and innovation often happens when we are outside of our comfort zone.

[00:30:42] And I've heard that quote so many times.

[00:30:44] I really believe that there is something in that.

[00:30:46] Healthy conflict is good.

[00:30:47] So I would choose healthy conflict as long as there is trust and psychological safety.

[00:30:54] And again, this is something that happens day to day in many organizations and in many teams.

[00:31:01] And I really believe that if you have a good foundation where there is psychological safety, no judgment, everyone is encouraged to speak their mind.

[00:31:17] And without fear of retaliation, I think healthy conflicts can really drive innovation.

[00:31:25] So that's where I would lean towards, but also asserting some healthy boundaries as well, along with that.

[00:31:39] What type of technology do you think will retire almost completely?

[00:31:46] I don't care the topic.

[00:31:47] It could be construction.

[00:31:48] It could be food.

[00:31:50] What do you think is going to not only get retired, but maybe enable humanity more?

[00:31:58] I couldn't predict whether this will become extinct, but I sure hope it will become extinct.

[00:32:07] The need for passwords and a million passwords.

[00:32:12] Okay.

[00:32:13] You have no idea how long I spend trying to get my passwords, change my passwords or remember my passwords.

[00:32:23] After failed three attempts, you get blocked out.

[00:32:26] I truly believe that this will help humanity because it will reduce our cortisol levels, which means that we will live longer and it'll be less stressful.

[00:32:38] I think that there was this hope for blockchain that would allow us to move throughout the technology ecosystem and remember that it's us as we move around.

[00:32:50] And I think that we've kind of learned that's not quite where we need to be.

[00:32:54] My advice to people, and I appreciate where I work as a federal employee in cybersecurity.

[00:33:01] So I have a Samsung and it has a particular app called Samsung Pass.

[00:33:08] I've got over, I think it's 110 passwords now that are inside there, but they're all there.

[00:33:14] And I have it create the strong password for me.

[00:33:19] I make a new login.

[00:33:21] And it's a very unique, long 16 unit password, but they're all different.

[00:33:28] It's where we are with security right now.

[00:33:31] And it's a necessary evil, unfortunately, isn't it?

[00:33:35] It is.

[00:33:36] And if you, everyone should be doing multi-factor authentication.

[00:33:40] Log in and then have it text you because that will save a lot of time and effort later.

[00:33:45] Your identity gets stolen.

[00:33:52] So how have you helped someone else who is struggling with what's commonly known as work-life balance?

[00:34:00] I was actually trying to think of a good concrete example to give you.

[00:34:06] But the thing that kept coming to my mind is this philosophy that we have in our team.

[00:34:13] We don't win unless everyone crosses the finish line.

[00:34:17] I really love that philosophy because it solidifies the culture of us having each other's backs no matter what.

[00:34:25] And whilst it may not necessarily be specific to a work-life balance, I think indirectly when you have a teammate who is either struggling or behind or feeling overwhelmed, it does impact them outside of work, no doubt.

[00:34:42] So the whole idea is if we are individually ahead of our own targets and our own objectives, we go back to the people who are not quite there and we help them along.

[00:34:57] So that's a philosophy that I really, really love.

[00:35:00] I want to say that in a different way to make sure I'm translating it.

[00:35:04] If everyone is kept up with where they need to be, inevitably could be people who are on time or ahead of schedule.

[00:35:13] But if you encourage and you enable the people who might be behind, that in itself creates the balance, right?

[00:35:21] You're not in a stressed place because you're active in making sure that those individuals are enabled along the way rather than creating the stress later of we weren't able to achieve.

[00:35:36] Exactly.

[00:35:38] Okay.

[00:35:38] Yeah, because if you think about it, it's that redistribution of that stress level that individual is probably going through.

[00:35:48] If there are people in the team who are excelling and who have actually exceeded their targets or whatever that measure of success might be, going back and helping them along so they don't feel as overwhelmed.

[00:36:03] And we're all finishing our objectives together successfully.

[00:36:15] Last scripted question.

[00:36:17] If you were to create a music group, what type of music and who do you want to listen to it?

[00:36:24] And you have to give me your band names.

[00:36:26] Oh, my goodness.

[00:36:28] Oh, I really struggle with this one.

[00:36:32] Andrew, you know, I have such an eclectic taste of music.

[00:36:36] It spans right across the spectrum.

[00:36:40] But I think for me, it'll definitely have to be a mashup.

[00:36:46] It'll have to have ABBA.

[00:36:49] It'll have to have Chopin.

[00:36:53] Okay.

[00:36:54] It'll have to have Louis Fonzy, who sang one of my favorites, which is Despacito.

[00:36:59] Okay.

[00:37:00] And then a French artist who I adore is Laurie Damond.

[00:37:06] And this band, I mean, this is what the band is going to look like.

[00:37:12] And maybe I would call it something like Chopin at the disco or something like that.

[00:37:21] You know what?

[00:37:22] That's great.

[00:37:23] Music is such an interesting reflection of how not only we are, but how we can be.

[00:37:29] I have my own ways that I listen and what I do.

[00:37:32] I like asking people, how do they music?

[00:37:37] Because it is just very personal and it certainly can be ancestral in a lot of ways.

[00:37:47] So we've gone through the scripted questions.

[00:37:50] And now it is time for the lightning round.

[00:37:54] Lightning round is 16 questions.

[00:37:57] They are binary in nature.

[00:37:59] So I'll set it up as a yes, no, or this or that.

[00:38:02] They tend to be a little seasonal.

[00:38:04] So first question.

[00:38:06] Pumpkin spice or gingerbread?

[00:38:09] Gingerbread.

[00:38:11] Toilet rolls.

[00:38:12] Do you have the paper hanging down the front or paper hanging down the back?

[00:38:17] I'm offended you're asking me this.

[00:38:20] It's always at the front.

[00:38:21] At the front.

[00:38:23] Summer or winter Olympics?

[00:38:28] Summer.

[00:38:29] Sandals.

[00:38:30] With socks or never with socks?

[00:38:33] Never with socks.

[00:38:34] Okay.

[00:38:35] Is it okay to bring fast food on a plane?

[00:38:39] Absolutely not.

[00:38:43] Roller coaster or water slide?

[00:38:48] I'm going to go with roller coaster, but I don't like either of them.

[00:38:53] Oreos.

[00:38:54] Do you break them before eating them or just eat them?

[00:38:57] I shove one in my mouth if that's...

[00:39:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:39:01] I mean, rather than breaking them into half.

[00:39:04] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:39:05] Shove it all in your mouth.

[00:39:06] The whole thing.

[00:39:07] It's too good.

[00:39:09] Pancakes or waffles?

[00:39:13] Waffles.

[00:39:15] Rainbow or chocolate sprinkles?

[00:39:17] Chocolate sprinkles.

[00:39:19] Apple or Android?

[00:39:21] Apple.

[00:39:21] Is the first Die Hard movie starring Bruce Willis, if you've seen it.

[00:39:28] Is it a Christmas movie?

[00:39:31] No.

[00:39:32] One pillow or two pillows?

[00:39:34] Two pillows.

[00:39:36] Pineapple on pizza.

[00:39:37] Yes or no?

[00:39:38] 100% yes.

[00:39:40] 100% yes.

[00:39:41] And with a choice, a book club or dance lessons?

[00:39:45] Dance lessons.

[00:39:47] That's it.

[00:39:47] You did great with the lightning round.

[00:39:50] Shani, it's good to see you.

[00:39:52] And I really appreciate you joining season one.

[00:39:55] What would be the best way to see you, get a hold of you, learn about you after this podcast?

[00:40:00] Absolutely.

[00:40:01] So LinkedIn, feel free to send me a request and connect with me.

[00:40:07] Sounds great.

[00:40:08] All right, everyone.

[00:40:09] Thank you so much.

[00:40:10] And we'll see you on the next podcast.

[00:40:12] Take care, everybody.