Megan Caposell | Briefing Out to Generals, Baking Chocolate Chip Cookies, and the Ballet

[00:00:26] Hi everybody, this is Andrew Gadomski and this is the Reciprocity Podcast with AG. I am AG and I am very pleased to have Megan Caposell, federal employee, workforce planner, and boss extraordinaire as Megan and I worked together for several years. Megan, welcome to the show.

[00:00:48] Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[00:00:49] You're welcome. So Megan, we want to start off with you telling your story. So why don't we pretend we're in an elevator here and give me some of the highlights.

[00:00:59] Yeah, so I have been working in the federal government both as a contractor and federal employee for almost 20 years, which is, I hadn't thought about that number. So that's a little terrifying to realize that.

[00:01:15] But yeah, I've been a federal employee since 2013. And in both experiences, I've had different clients. I started working with the DOD in technology space, working with DARPA. I was with Booz Allen and supported the Army before I moved to DHS. And I stayed at DHS for a long time, just shy of 17 years.

[00:01:38] For all of our listeners, because Megan and I both work in the federal government. D-O-D, meaning the Department of Defense, DHS, meaning the Department of Homeland Security. It's an international podcast.

[00:01:53] I see. I see. I will be more clear. And then I'm currently working as a federal employee with the Department of the Interior.

[00:02:00] Okay, let's jump in and let's talk a little bit about leadership. I'm curious about a trait or technique you learned from somebody else and that you've successfully applied in your work.

[00:02:19] I have seen a lot in the federal government and been to many a meeting. And I think one thing that stands out most is my experience working with the Army. I had the opportunity to work with mainly all generals, including four-star generals, but mostly with a one-star brigadier general.

[00:02:42] This was back in the mid-2000s. The war was underway and there's a lot of things to manage in terms of logistics. He held twice a week, 15-minute stand-ups. And I have never seen a more efficient and effective use of time.

[00:03:00] I got to watch him balance learning with decisive action. He would start those by opening up with a topic or a specific issue. He would share some context to give understanding to the facts that he knew or the circumstances.

[00:03:17] And he'd call out specific areas that he believed people would have equity and that he specifically wanted to hear from. His approach really set the stage to be succinct, but also for people to be succinct back with him.

[00:03:32] He would hear from different people and then he would also ask for recommendations.

[00:03:37] Okay.

[00:03:38] And there might be a quick discussion about that and the pros and the cons. And most times we left that meeting with a decision in hand and then actions for people to go back. And it was just a really effective and efficient use of time. I think the context is a little bit different. There was like war happening in theater. I learned a lot about senior level meetings and how to find balance with the right amount of information and how to prioritize that information and its importance.

[00:04:04] I'm a big fan of those kinds of standups. For years now, I really tried to keep meetings to 20 minutes.

[00:04:11] I've already seen your status report. So what obstacles can I help us remove? What are the enhancements that we need to worry about? Are you having restricted resources and what significant accomplishments do you want me to know about so I can broadcast or chime in and share with everybody?

[00:04:30] One of my favorite things to say is I'm yielding back 10 minutes to the group.

[00:04:38] I love saying you get time back because we were that efficient.

[00:04:41] I think when we transitioned to remote work, we started going from meeting to meeting to meeting with no breaks.

[00:04:48] So to really be efficient and effective with that use of time and to yield back time, I think we're getting a little bit more savvy and figuring out better time management in this virtual environment.

[00:04:59] Yeah.

[00:05:06] Tell me about a food you make or buy for others that you believe will make them feel love for you.

[00:05:14] Or tell me about a food that you've received where you feel love for the person who gave it to you.

[00:05:25] I have what I think are the most delicious chocolate chip cookies in the world.

[00:05:30] They're big and they're just very delicious, soft and delicious.

[00:05:34] It's a process to make these chocolate chip cookies.

[00:05:36] I really like to make them for my friends and to pass them out.

[00:05:41] I just sometimes I do it for no reason.

[00:05:44] I actually another thing you probably didn't know.

[00:05:46] I entered the state fair with my chocolate chip cookies this year.

[00:05:49] Bingo. State fair and chocolate chip cookies.

[00:05:51] How would I know?

[00:05:52] I sadly I didn't place.

[00:05:55] I'd like to meet these judges to talk about this.

[00:05:57] I'm sure the ones that won were delicious.

[00:06:00] But I'm going to try a couple little tweaks and stuff.

[00:06:04] And I might enter a couple variations of the chocolate chip cookies and stratify my opportunities there to win.

[00:06:17] Mental focus is our next topic.

[00:06:20] So how do you keep focus, that mental focus at work?

[00:06:24] Where did that model come from?

[00:06:27] I am a planner.

[00:06:30] And so I like to understand where we're going with something and then I can reverse engineer it.

[00:06:39] But I think focus is interesting in that not every day, all day am I hyper focused.

[00:06:50] But when I have a deadline and I've mapped the process to make sure that I deliver the right product on time with all the quality control checks and everything that needs to go into it, I've just factored in for all of those things.

[00:07:03] I like to be able to have the space to make a timeline so that I can produce something.

[00:07:08] Because I think on a daily basis, sometimes it's hard to stay focused for me at work all the time.

[00:07:15] There's other extenuating factors.

[00:07:16] I think right now is a perfect example with the transition teams coming in at work.

[00:07:20] And so we don't know what they want to know, right?

[00:07:23] So we're getting calls for information all the time.

[00:07:26] They're trying to strategize and figure things out.

[00:07:29] We're trying to keep the lights on and keep the train moving and everything.

[00:07:32] And so if you just have all the expectations and you can set a schedule, that just really helps me stay on track.

[00:07:43] Transition team being, you know, we had in the United States our election when the executive branch turns over an administration, all the political appointees across the federal government resign.

[00:07:55] And for a good portion of them, very few come back.

[00:07:58] That creates this transition.

[00:08:00] This will be the second one I've experienced.

[00:08:02] And it is this odd.

[00:08:05] It's not a stall.

[00:08:07] It's like a space.

[00:08:09] Right.

[00:08:10] Right.

[00:08:10] Don't change anything, but keep all of your ideas because we don't know what's going to happen and we don't know what new ideas are coming.

[00:08:21] It's very different than the private sector.

[00:08:23] It's almost like what would happen during a takeover where you don't know everything.

[00:08:31] I've been through a couple of those kinds of acquisitions.

[00:08:40] Movie, play, musical, poem, or book.

[00:08:43] Talking about literary references.

[00:08:45] What speaks to you?

[00:08:47] Which one did you experience more than once?

[00:08:51] Did someone recommend it to you?

[00:08:54] Hmm.

[00:08:59] I am very much into musicals and the theater in general.

[00:09:07] I don't know if I've seen a musical more than once, but I have seen ballet is more than once.

[00:09:16] I am a big fan of the ballet.

[00:09:20] I've seen Swan Lake many times and I see the Nutcracker almost every year.

[00:09:24] And I listen to those soundtracks regularly.

[00:09:27] I listen to classical music every day when I work.

[00:09:30] But going to the theater was something I always did growing up.

[00:09:34] I've just continued doing that as an adult myself.

[00:09:38] I try and not necessarily see the same musicals or plays, but those ballets I do see a lot.

[00:09:47] Wow.

[00:09:48] I'm learning something new about you.

[00:09:51] I love it when that happens.

[00:09:53] I've been doing a number of these, obviously, and I'm learning about people who I've known a long time.

[00:09:57] That's a good one.

[00:10:04] You're going to appreciate this next one.

[00:10:06] Briefing out now.

[00:10:08] All of a sudden you get pulled into a call.

[00:10:11] We got a brief later today to an executive, to someone of significance.

[00:10:18] And in some cases you're briefing someone who's going to brief somebody else, but you have no time to do this.

[00:10:24] What's the process you go through and be prepared?

[00:10:28] Yeah, that's a good question.

[00:10:29] And as you were saying it, it made me think back to my previous answer about that leadership tactic and technique with the general.

[00:10:38] I think what really helps is that I could go in with all the information.

[00:10:45] I mean, I might already just know it.

[00:10:47] I didn't necessarily have to prepare.

[00:10:48] I just might know it by heart.

[00:10:50] And if this is the space that I work in all the time, or maybe I prepared some things not knowing exactly what was going to be asked.

[00:10:58] So I think it's always important to start out asking some questions.

[00:11:03] I don't know how much time would be given on this, but, you know, what is your goal with this meeting?

[00:11:08] What do you need to understand?

[00:11:09] And so just making sure that I have the context and that I'm asking and not making assumptions on what they need to know.

[00:11:17] If we don't have a lot of time, we don't want to waste time.

[00:11:19] Whether it's ahead of time and talking to maybe somebody's assistants or their special advisors, whoever the team may be surrounding if it's a principal level person.

[00:11:29] And getting as much context as I can so that I go in as well prepared as possible.

[00:11:35] But if that's short, making sure that I start out up front with this is my understanding.

[00:11:40] This is what I think that you've asked me here today to share with you.

[00:11:45] Is this correct?

[00:11:46] Having them validate that at the outset.

[00:11:48] And then I can just map to what needs to happen.

[00:11:53] I would probably start with saying the most critical points or why I think that they care and offering that up front.

[00:12:03] And then if they want to continue to peel back the layers of the onion or dive deeper into the data, you know, happy to do that and answer more pointed questions.

[00:12:14] But trying to just make sure that I understand.

[00:12:18] I think that's really, really critical is just making sure that I understand what this is for or what this is about, who it's for, who's the audience, if not this person and it's somebody else.

[00:12:29] Understanding why they care and then helping to design the information to meet that need.

[00:12:38] I think that's good is to have this wideness and then asking for the context.

[00:12:43] And you hinted at this, but that's my briefing you or am I briefing you so you can brief somebody else.

[00:12:51] And you said to Andrew that up front that I'm in workforce planning and as a workforce planner, I consider myself a storyteller.

[00:12:59] So I need to just understand what they need to understand.

[00:13:03] And then I can I'll know how to tell the story that they would want to tell if or no.

[00:13:09] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:13:11] I hear that.

[00:13:17] Next question.

[00:13:20] It's about raising your hand.

[00:13:23] Education that you found to be exciting.

[00:13:28] Which class, whether it was primary, grade school, secondary, professional, something down at the community center.

[00:13:35] What made you raise your hand the most?

[00:13:39] I love learning.

[00:13:41] I've taken a lot of schooling.

[00:13:43] I went to Johns Hopkins for grad school in D.C.

[00:13:47] And I think the way they have small classrooms and just the way they structured, we would read about the theory of these things.

[00:13:55] But it was working professionals for the most part.

[00:13:58] And so we would talk.

[00:13:59] We would talk.

[00:14:00] A lot about what we read and the theory behind it and hear from the teacher.

[00:14:06] But we would also talk with each other and to each other about maybe the practical implementation in our experiences.

[00:14:13] I don't love taking tests.

[00:14:15] And I don't love writing 30 page papers.

[00:14:17] But I do like researching.

[00:14:19] And I like being in the classroom because I like the conversation.

[00:14:23] But I got a lot of confidence.

[00:14:25] I built a lot of confidence through my experience in grad school to raise my hand and to speak up and to speak out and let my voice be heard as part of the conversation and dialogue.

[00:14:36] So it sounds like it was the dynamic, right?

[00:14:40] So you're not talking about the Socratic method where you have the lecturer and all of a sudden, Ms. Capacell, what do you think?

[00:14:47] When I was in school and in a cohort, there's 80 people in the class.

[00:14:54] But it was that breakdown of the sessions with other executives where the dialogue happens.

[00:15:01] And that's where this intermixing of high finance and government or people who are working in digital or they're working in mining.

[00:15:13] And they start talking about their experiences and you're trading and you get that puppy dog slant to your head.

[00:15:20] Like I never would have thought about that problem.

[00:15:23] I think that widening and that involvement makes a lot of sense.

[00:15:28] Yeah, adds richness.

[00:15:29] Yeah, I like that.

[00:15:30] The richness of learning.

[00:15:39] Let's talk about community or conflict.

[00:15:42] I'd like you to pick one and talk about either how you create community in a team or how you approach diffusing conflict in a team.

[00:15:59] I think community is interesting in this virtual environment that we produce.

[00:16:08] We're predominantly all work in now.

[00:16:11] There was a point when COVID happened, we'd all gone virtual, but the team predominantly had all been together.

[00:16:21] When I was a supervisor in my previous role.

[00:16:24] I had a great team.

[00:16:27] I had a great team, but we had all had been in person together.

[00:16:30] And then COVID happened and we were immediately virtual.

[00:16:33] There wasn't a lot of hiring that happened at the beginning of the pandemic.

[00:16:38] But then we started to resume a little bit more normal operations and started hiring new people to the team that had never met in person or been into the office.

[00:16:47] And it created a new challenge to get to know people.

[00:16:56] Because unless you're in a meeting with that person or had a need to be in a meeting with them, you wouldn't really know them.

[00:17:02] So as a supervisor, I was challenged to help create a sense of community.

[00:17:12] We had tools.

[00:17:13] We started using, you know, video conferencing and other tools.

[00:17:19] But we never had to use those the way we all of a sudden had to do it and didn't even really know how to operate as a team using those.

[00:17:27] I read an article a long time ago, and I can't remember the specific name of the article.

[00:17:33] It was something to do with coffee chats and how highly effective coffee chats can be.

[00:17:39] And so I thought, I'm just going to bring this coffee chat thing to the virtual world.

[00:17:44] And I started having my team get together for at a minimum 15 minutes, at a maximum 30 minutes.

[00:17:53] And I would set people up with different coffee chat experiences each week.

[00:17:59] You could talk about the weather.

[00:18:01] You could talk about the baseball game.

[00:18:02] You could talk about some sort of meme or current event or something.

[00:18:07] It was just a way to help get to know each other and to really build those relationships and rapport.

[00:18:13] It might not mean as much for somebody who's more senior.

[00:18:17] And we certainly had a lot of senior people on my team.

[00:18:19] But we started bringing in more junior people who would maybe be a little bit more reticent to speak up and to get to know people or know what the right thing to do is.

[00:18:31] So it helped them build a level of comfort.

[00:18:34] And it helped everybody to just get to know each other a little bit better on a personal level and personality-wise.

[00:18:43] I think that they were effective, but I was also the supervisor at the time, so maybe I'm biased.

[00:18:49] I think it's important to create water cooler moments and those opportunities for just exchanges that are just more authentic.

[00:19:03] We're both in workforce planning, and I came from a world of it's all about talent.

[00:19:07] It's all about the talent.

[00:19:08] It's all about the people.

[00:19:10] And I started realizing that there's a big difference between the people and the position.

[00:19:17] And the knowledge, skills, abilities, and tasks, and the duties, that's the position.

[00:19:22] It doesn't really matter who's in that job, provided that they can execute that work.

[00:19:28] But that's not the person.

[00:19:33] And that's why I think community and conflict are so important to identify with all the automation that we're seeing.

[00:19:41] I guess the question is, can you replace the people?

[00:19:45] I think that's a challenge that we're all going to be facing and probably facing now.

[00:19:55] What technology do you think will be retired almost completely?

[00:20:00] I don't care what it is.

[00:20:02] It could be related to automobiles, or it could be related to forklifts, or you think that candy manufacturing is going to go away.

[00:20:12] I don't care.

[00:20:13] Credit cards.

[00:20:14] Ooh, good one.

[00:20:17] You mean physically the card itself?

[00:20:19] Yeah, the card itself.

[00:20:20] I mean, one of the only reasons I use my card itself is to reference my number.

[00:20:26] And that's if I had to get a new credit card and it changed.

[00:20:30] More people are just using their device to pay or PayPal or Venmo or some sort of other platform, Zelle, to just send money.

[00:20:42] There's talk, you know, putting chips in people.

[00:20:44] You just have a chip embedded in you and you just swipe over or something.

[00:20:49] Matrix.

[00:20:50] Yeah, I think that's going to be a thing of the past in the not too distant future.

[00:20:54] I know that there are countries that stop minting currency.

[00:20:59] They're just not pressing it anymore.

[00:21:01] I do find it interesting in the little town that I live in, we still have cash-only businesses.

[00:21:12] Let's talk a little bit about balance.

[00:21:15] I appreciate that you have your own methods.

[00:21:17] I do too.

[00:21:18] But how have you helped someone else who is struggling there?

[00:21:25] I think that this is such a hard thing.

[00:21:30] When we were in the office, I would do things.

[00:21:35] There's just people who are just committed to getting things done.

[00:21:41] And I admire their commitment to the mission and not leaving until it's done.

[00:21:45] They're always doing this.

[00:21:47] And it's not necessarily because it's poor time management throughout the day.

[00:21:52] It's just the volume of work.

[00:21:54] And maybe you're one deep on something.

[00:21:56] And so you have to get things done.

[00:21:58] And so when I was in the office, I would kind of make rounds too and say, all right, let's head out in like 15 minutes.

[00:22:07] Just give people time to measure against.

[00:22:13] And if they weren't ready, I would stand there or sit with them, not to necessarily rush them.

[00:22:20] But I would offer my thoughts on better work-life balance and let them know that I'm okay with them cutting it off.

[00:22:31] Like the work is going to be there tomorrow.

[00:22:34] But it didn't always work.

[00:22:35] I think that this is an area where I wish I had a better answer for this.

[00:22:39] But I don't think that I've been overwhelmingly successful.

[00:22:44] I think something that's changed, though, is having your computer at home and working from home.

[00:22:49] I think at first during COVID, people were working interesting hours or just checking and sending emails beyond necessarily their work hours.

[00:22:58] I think as time has gone on, there's been better balance even if they are still at home and remote.

[00:23:08] So I think the dynamic with it has changed a little bit because they are at home and they can just quickly do something if they need to get something out.

[00:23:18] As opposed to necessarily bringing work home with you in a previous world we lived in pre-COVID.

[00:23:26] Okay.

[00:23:27] I don't think I've been very successful here.

[00:23:30] I wish I had a better answer.

[00:23:33] On one of the other episodes, we were talking about the difference between borders and guardrails when it comes to this.

[00:23:43] And I think the guardrail concept is, you know, a border you can cross.

[00:23:50] But guardrails are a lot tougher.

[00:23:52] They deliberately keep you on the road a little bit.

[00:23:57] And painfully, I think one of the guardrails that I've talked previously about actually keeping equipment away from myself.

[00:24:06] I'm fortunate enough to have an office away from the house.

[00:24:11] But there's a fireproof lockbox with a combination there.

[00:24:14] I put laptops in there and I close the door and I go home.

[00:24:20] And it's impossible for me to do the work.

[00:24:24] There's no reason for somebody to reach out given the station that I've got and the kind of occupation that I have where I have to be on call.

[00:24:32] There's nothing that important.

[00:24:34] But I think that there's more examples of making some of those guardrails and those borders for yourselves or for others.

[00:24:39] I love the idea of sitting with someone and saying, hey, it's okay for you to get up and go.

[00:24:47] There's no merit badges for you staying.

[00:24:49] Yeah.

[00:24:50] It's just, it's about discipline, as you said, and just setting boundaries and then being disciplined with those boundaries.

[00:25:03] Last fun question.

[00:25:04] If you were to create a music group, what type of music would you play?

[00:25:11] What kind of audience would you have?

[00:25:15] And what's your band name?

[00:25:19] I think this is going to surprise you.

[00:25:23] I would pick classical music.

[00:25:27] Okay.

[00:25:28] I love listening to classical music and it would have to be something that I would want to listen to regularly.

[00:25:38] I listen to all sorts of music every day, but I think classical.

[00:25:44] So it's not really a band.

[00:25:46] Is that an orchestra?

[00:25:48] So would you write for woodwinds and brass and the strings?

[00:25:53] Is it, is it for a ballet?

[00:25:55] I think I would have a symphony orchestra.

[00:25:58] Yes.

[00:25:58] Okay.

[00:26:00] Yeah.

[00:26:00] And I would have to write a symphony.

[00:26:03] Symphonies have a number, symphony number.

[00:26:06] So I think I would just be symphony number N.

[00:26:13] Symphony number N.

[00:26:15] Yeah.

[00:26:16] I love it.

[00:26:16] The variable.

[00:26:18] Or I can make it like an equation and then you have to solve the equation.

[00:26:21] No, that's too much.

[00:26:23] Well, music is math.

[00:26:26] Yeah.

[00:26:27] Yeah.

[00:26:27] Music, it's the same in every language.

[00:26:31] Yes.

[00:26:32] Just like mathematics.

[00:26:34] Yes.

[00:26:34] If I was to give a sheet of music to someone in Asia, Africa, et cetera, and they knew how to play the piano and I handed them the paper, they'd be able to play.

[00:26:45] You can do that in any country in the world.

[00:26:48] I'm a big fan of music.

[00:26:49] It's just like math.

[00:26:50] Okay.

[00:26:57] Okay.

[00:26:57] Are you ready for the lightning round?

[00:27:01] As ready as I'm going to be.

[00:27:03] Okay.

[00:27:03] Yes.

[00:27:04] All right.

[00:27:05] So the questions are random.

[00:27:07] They're binary in nature, this or that.

[00:27:11] Pumpkin spice or gingerbread?

[00:27:14] Gingerbread.

[00:27:16] On your toilet roll.

[00:27:17] On your toilet roll, does the paper go forward or do you have it go backwards?

[00:27:22] Forwards.

[00:27:23] Always.

[00:27:24] Summer or winter Olympics?

[00:27:27] Winter.

[00:27:28] Sandals.

[00:27:29] Can you wear them with socks or never with socks?

[00:27:32] Absolutely never with socks.

[00:27:35] Popcorn.

[00:27:36] Butter or no butter?

[00:27:38] I do not like popcorn, but if I had popcorn, I would want butter because I'd be going all in.

[00:27:45] Can you bring fast food on a plane?

[00:27:49] Absolutely.

[00:27:50] Roller coaster or water slide?

[00:27:52] A roller coaster.

[00:27:54] Oreos.

[00:27:55] Do you put them in your mouth whole or do you break them first?

[00:27:58] Yeah, I take them apart.

[00:28:01] Rainbow or chocolate sprinkles?

[00:28:03] Rainbow.

[00:28:04] Pancakes or waffles?

[00:28:05] Waffles.

[00:28:07] Android or Apple?

[00:28:09] Apple.

[00:28:10] Is the first Die Hard movie a Christmas movie?

[00:28:14] I have no idea.

[00:28:16] You have no idea?

[00:28:19] Well, you will have to watch and then you can make a determination if that is a Christmas movie.

[00:28:26] That's Bruce Willis, right?

[00:28:28] Yeah.

[00:28:29] Yes.

[00:28:29] Yeah.

[00:28:29] All right.

[00:28:30] I will do it for Bruce Willis.

[00:28:32] One pillow or two?

[00:28:34] One.

[00:28:35] Okay.

[00:28:36] Pineapple on pizza.

[00:28:38] Yes or no?

[00:28:39] Yes.

[00:28:41] And with a choice, a book club or dance lessons?

[00:28:46] A book club.

[00:28:48] That's the lightning round.

[00:28:49] You did great.

[00:28:51] Thank you.

[00:28:52] You're welcome.

[00:28:53] That was fun.

[00:28:54] That was a lot of fun, Andrew.

[00:28:55] Oh, my pleasure, Megan.

[00:28:57] It's always good to talk with you.

[00:28:59] Appreciate you sharing ideas on leadership, but also on fun and things about yourself.

[00:29:05] I think that what an opportunity we have in a world of knowledge where rather than knowledge

[00:29:12] about our work, knowledge about ourselves.

[00:29:16] And that's what reciprocity is all about.

[00:29:18] We'll see you next time here on Reciprocity with AG.

[00:29:21] I'll be right back.

[00:29:21] I'm not kidding.

[00:29:21] I'm not kidding.