Employers Vs. Employees: No Trust + No Loyalty = A Fractional Mindset with The Realest Recruiter, Joel Lalgee

[00:00:00] Why do you have them play this game and interview?

[00:00:03] Even some of the questions we ask, they don't make you know,

[00:00:07] why do you want to work for us?

[00:00:09] Yeah, it's like, you need a paycheck.

[00:00:12] And we all know that that's the truth.

[00:00:15] Maybe there's a time where you're doing something cool

[00:00:18] and I'm excited about the brand.

[00:00:20] Okay, that can happen.

[00:00:21] It's like you force people into literally lying.

[00:00:26] And that's why like one of my biggest videos on Instagram and TikTok is,

[00:00:31] you know, three lies you got to say in the interview.

[00:00:33] Why do you want this job?

[00:00:34] Don't say money.

[00:00:35] Never say money.

[00:00:36] Where do you see yourself in five years?

[00:00:38] Gotta be at the company.

[00:00:39] And it's just like, right?

[00:00:41] Average 10 years, two to three years.

[00:00:42] Like, why are we asking these questions?

[00:00:48] Joel, do us a favor.

[00:00:50] If you could somehow collapse this entire internet fame

[00:00:55] that you've created over the last decade or so.

[00:01:00] I mean, it didn't happen.

[00:01:01] I want to set the expectation really high, right?

[00:01:03] That's always fair.

[00:01:04] No, that's fair.

[00:01:06] Introduce yourself, brother.

[00:01:07] Tell us a little bit about yourself.

[00:01:08] Yes, my name is Joel Lology.

[00:01:10] Probably known as, well, I am known as the realist recruiter now.

[00:01:14] As you can see, I got the light up here and anyone who's listening.

[00:01:17] You're following me on socials.

[00:01:18] That is my handle except for on X where it's the human headhunter.

[00:01:23] Don't know why I chose that name.

[00:01:25] But the realist recruiter everywhere else.

[00:01:28] I've been in a recruitment space for about a decade,

[00:01:30] mainly on the agency side.

[00:01:32] You know, just working with a couple of RPOs and then another

[00:01:37] retained firm in Chicago called Hyrowell.

[00:01:40] So shout out to Hyrowell.

[00:01:41] And then about a year and a half ago, I went full time into

[00:01:46] content creation, consulting and you know, just doing what I love

[00:01:51] for the recruitment space, making people laugh, putting out relatable content.

[00:01:55] And I'm just talking a lot about what's actually going on in work

[00:02:00] for people who are doing the work and people who aren't in leadership seats.

[00:02:04] So do you occasionally make placements just for fun?

[00:02:07] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:02:09] I work on maybe one or two searches a quarter usually like non-technical

[00:02:14] leadership level roles.

[00:02:17] So last last role I had was a controller position for an aerospace

[00:02:21] company.

[00:02:22] So I'll take on searches when they make sense.

[00:02:24] I try a lot of tech in the industry.

[00:02:26] I get a lot of startups, you know, I resist so many AI companies

[00:02:30] that are pitching services.

[00:02:31] So I'm like, hey, if I can get the service for free, I will use it on

[00:02:36] recruitment searches and then just do consulting around like, you know,

[00:02:41] social media, how to attract candidates and have fun that way.

[00:02:47] I love that.

[00:02:48] Yeah, I love that.

[00:02:49] Is there any tech right now that you're absolutely just loving?

[00:02:52] I mean, outside of LinkedIn Recurator, of course.

[00:02:55] That's just gonna stay there and cover it.

[00:02:57] But is there anything else that just like really you're like,

[00:02:59] take it serious.

[00:03:00] I couldn't do my job without this.

[00:03:02] Yeah, I look, I love the interview transcription tools.

[00:03:06] So MetaView is a tool that I use.

[00:03:09] And I've been partner with them for about six months.

[00:03:12] But I think what I love most is just anybody I refer over to them.

[00:03:17] They're a little bit skeptical, you know, maybe they're like old

[00:03:20] school and like, hey, I love writing notes.

[00:03:22] And then as soon as they try it, they're like, how am I going to

[00:03:26] even live without this?

[00:03:28] Yeah.

[00:03:29] You know, I think somebody my wife is in that in that camp,

[00:03:35] like even on basic Zoom meetings, swim board or some shit like

[00:03:40] that.

[00:03:40] Yep.

[00:03:41] She wants to write the note.

[00:03:43] She will not use, she calls it the computer.

[00:03:46] She will not use AI to transcribe her notes, summarize anything.

[00:03:50] I gave up trying to convince her.

[00:03:52] Yeah, it's like an art form, right?

[00:03:54] It's like thank you notes.

[00:03:55] Like people just, you don't want to give it up.

[00:03:57] Yeah, I gave it up the moment it was available.

[00:04:01] Honestly, it's better than what I'm going to do.

[00:04:03] And if it's not correct, it's correct enough.

[00:04:07] Yeah, 100% to make sense.

[00:04:09] The only thing I still write down is salaries just so

[00:04:12] clear too, because I think that's the one area which like

[00:04:15] that's fair.

[00:04:15] I got to write that part down because it's messed that up.

[00:04:18] It's just yeah.

[00:04:20] You said 260.

[00:04:21] I came out back at 140.

[00:04:22] Yeah, you know what?

[00:04:23] We're going to, we're going to, you're not going to appreciate

[00:04:27] that as humor because I got that so wrong.

[00:04:32] That's fair.

[00:04:33] So I'll make a good meme on LinkedIn.

[00:04:35] That's about it.

[00:04:35] It was.

[00:04:36] Yeah, I would do it.

[00:04:37] It's worth 20 clicks.

[00:04:39] You know, let's all do it.

[00:04:39] You said, send her receiver.

[00:04:43] Um, so we're going to, so Madden, I'll go ahead.

[00:04:48] You know, Madden view?

[00:04:49] Yep.

[00:04:49] So Madden view and then better leap I'm using for sourcing.

[00:04:53] Right.

[00:04:53] And then EQ buddy.

[00:04:54] I don't know if you guys have heard of EQ buddy.

[00:04:56] No, no, no, no.

[00:04:57] Tell us about EQ buddy.

[00:04:58] What basically is like ultimate recruitment assistant.

[00:05:00] So, um, I use it for like research.

[00:05:04] I actually do it.

[00:05:05] We use it a lot for research for like podcast guests.

[00:05:07] Use it to write content, job ads, messaging, sourcing.

[00:05:12] So I've been using that tool as well.

[00:05:14] And oh, that's cool.

[00:05:16] Yeah.

[00:05:16] Right.

[00:05:16] It's kind of like chat GPT.

[00:05:18] Right.

[00:05:19] But just better.

[00:05:21] Better with recruiting, especially maybe, maybe built with some

[00:05:24] of them are with recruiting and mind.

[00:05:26] Exactly.

[00:05:27] Which is sourcing tool?

[00:05:29] Uh, sourcing tool is better leap.

[00:05:31] I don't know better leap as well.

[00:05:33] Yeah, they've been going against like jam and, uh, contact out.

[00:05:38] Um, like crazy and winning.

[00:05:40] And I mean, they just do a simple test to take all your

[00:05:43] contact information that you have put it through their, uh, you

[00:05:47] know, their service and they, they're winning a lot of, a

[00:05:50] lot of companies in like healthcare manufacturing where it's

[00:05:52] so they, so they'll go into an ATS refresh the data.

[00:05:57] And now you have up to date.

[00:05:59] If you've got a million people in your ATS now you've

[00:06:02] got up to date data with all those people.

[00:06:04] Yeah.

[00:06:04] I mean, they actually have you test it through like, so

[00:06:07] if you've got, if you've got people stored in whatever,

[00:06:09] I don't know, gem for example, right?

[00:06:12] Literally test it out against better leaps database and, uh,

[00:06:17] they got better data.

[00:06:19] Apparently.

[00:06:19] Oh, that's cool.

[00:06:20] They've been winning deals and I like it just because it's,

[00:06:23] it's flat fee.

[00:06:24] There's no credit.

[00:06:26] Yeah.

[00:06:26] Yeah.

[00:06:27] Yeah.

[00:06:27] Yeah.

[00:06:28] Yeah.

[00:06:29] I think that's, that's important too.

[00:06:30] I mean the amount of tools that are out there, they do 37 things.

[00:06:34] They have 27 different pricing plans and you just can't make

[00:06:39] a purchase.

[00:06:39] No, you've got to go through the demo.

[00:06:41] You've got to go through a call.

[00:06:42] You got to go through the qualification call to get to

[00:06:44] the sales demo then get to the sales proposal.

[00:06:47] It's a pain in the ass.

[00:06:49] It is not, it's not easy.

[00:06:50] So the simpler these companies start to make their product

[00:06:54] and their process.

[00:06:55] The way I was using signal higher the other day and it's

[00:07:00] credit steel.

[00:07:01] Yeah.

[00:07:01] So it's like, okay, you buy, you put in tokens.

[00:07:03] I'm like, dude, you're, you're working against my interests.

[00:07:07] Yeah.

[00:07:07] Like you're actually, you're, this isn't a guy.

[00:07:10] I felt like actually contact them and going, you know,

[00:07:12] seriously make it an unlimited.

[00:07:14] Just charge a higher fee.

[00:07:15] It's okay.

[00:07:16] That's what battle leap has had to do.

[00:07:17] So they were doing it for free for like 10 days and then I mean

[00:07:22] look recruiters, sometimes we hurt ourselves because they had

[00:07:25] to people just like putting like they were doing exactly

[00:07:29] what you just said, which is that putting a whole database

[00:07:31] through and refresh all the contact information.

[00:07:34] And then in 10 days.

[00:07:35] Yeah.

[00:07:36] Yeah.

[00:07:36] That's so they put a limit on there now.

[00:07:39] Um, but also the contracts month to month.

[00:07:42] And I think your point, Ryan, I mean it's just that's, it's

[00:07:45] just, I just think it's thinking about like, okay, yeah,

[00:07:46] everybody wants to lock people in for the year long contract,

[00:07:49] the whatever.

[00:07:50] Right.

[00:07:51] Yeah.

[00:07:52] It's just, you know, if you're just smaller company or

[00:07:55] you got it, you got a team that's had that budget slash.

[00:07:58] I think you're asking a lot if they've never like month

[00:08:01] to month, I think makes a lot of sense and just that

[00:08:03] flat fee.

[00:08:05] It's easy to understand.

[00:08:06] Easy to pitch.

[00:08:07] You know, I can just imagine that conversation with the

[00:08:08] CFO like, well, you know, credit system here and I don't

[00:08:13] know how many credits we're going to need.

[00:08:15] So what is coming up?

[00:08:16] I actually, we, we, yeah, we've been through this previously

[00:08:20] with like a fucking Apollo.

[00:08:22] Yeah.

[00:08:22] Yeah.

[00:08:23] You buy 200,000 credits, you use 100 and then your contract

[00:08:26] expires and they don't want to allow you to use the

[00:08:29] other portion.

[00:08:29] Well, you didn't use it in time.

[00:08:31] Exactly.

[00:08:32] Perfect.

[00:08:33] Never be back.

[00:08:34] I will never be back there.

[00:08:35] Sorry.

[00:08:36] No.

[00:08:36] Well, and it's calls like this that an audience is going to

[00:08:39] listen to.

[00:08:40] They hear this and they're like, okay, I'm not going to use

[00:08:43] that service.

[00:08:44] Yeah.

[00:08:44] This is the power of that type stuff.

[00:08:46] It's like, you know, just don't screw people over.

[00:08:48] And again, I won't deal with the recruiter behavior

[00:08:51] because we don't have enough time.

[00:08:54] But when we were going back at 4V email about show, I think

[00:08:57] I asked you what was pissing you off lately or something

[00:08:59] like that or what was on your mind.

[00:09:01] You're like everything is whole bit around culture being

[00:09:04] this game.

[00:09:04] Did my LinkedIn or have you looked at my time dude?

[00:09:07] Like, honestly, I know I follow all this stuff.

[00:09:09] So, so it's like, I know it's pissing them off, but I just

[00:09:13] want to see what we would email back.

[00:09:15] But you said culture is a game and we even talked to

[00:09:18] a pre show about how as a recruiter, you got to sell

[00:09:23] this bucket of shit that is the culture that you

[00:09:27] don't really know because you're not living it.

[00:09:30] You're not living through it.

[00:09:31] And so, but you got to, you know, put what is it?

[00:09:34] The Valley guys put lipstick on a pig.

[00:09:37] Yeah, as relates to a startup.

[00:09:39] So, yeah, so what's your what's your take on culture

[00:09:43] right now and how to sell it?

[00:09:44] Yeah, look, I just think we're reaching a point now

[00:09:47] where number one corporate trust is just low.

[00:09:51] Right.

[00:09:51] I mean, how can you even how can you trust any corporation?

[00:09:55] It's just I don't think it's possible.

[00:09:57] Um, and you know the data shows that right?

[00:10:00] It's like employee engagement corporate trust all time low.

[00:10:03] I also think at the flip side we've got really high

[00:10:06] inflation things cost a lot and there are a lot of people

[00:10:10] who, you know, it's just tough right now.

[00:10:12] And so what I'm honestly thinking is going to happen

[00:10:15] as I think it's tough job market right now for

[00:10:17] white college jobs.

[00:10:18] There's a lot of people on the market.

[00:10:19] So obviously companies can get people back to the

[00:10:21] office.

[00:10:22] They can lobel them.

[00:10:23] They can do all the things you could do in an

[00:10:25] employer market.

[00:10:26] They just things start to kind of bounce back whenever

[00:10:29] that is and then go back to more of a candidate market.

[00:10:32] I think the generation coming into the workplace is

[00:10:35] going to have much more of like a fractional mindset

[00:10:37] and like, Hey, look, I got skills.

[00:10:39] I got time.

[00:10:40] Let's trade that as opposed to.

[00:10:43] I think this whole idea even of just like working

[00:10:45] for like one company and like being loyal and all

[00:10:49] of these ideas ideas like they're still out there,

[00:10:52] but they just lose you just losing people all the

[00:10:55] time like.

[00:10:56] So your advocate for polygamy is where you're going

[00:11:00] with this.

[00:11:01] I think so and like also like, I think to a certain

[00:11:04] thing to me Ryan work.

[00:11:06] Work and I think but to a certain degree like I

[00:11:08] think you're always going to have your core group

[00:11:10] of people right organization.

[00:11:13] But it's like the thing that always confused me

[00:11:15] was like when you're hiring, you know, whoever

[00:11:17] like an executive assistant, nothing against executive

[00:11:20] assistant, but if you hire an assistant or someone

[00:11:23] who's entry level, it's like why you haven't why do

[00:11:26] you haven't played this like game and interview and even

[00:11:29] some of the questions we asked.

[00:11:30] It's just they don't make you know, why do you want

[00:11:33] to work for us?

[00:11:33] And yeah, it's like pay to paycheck and we all

[00:11:38] know that like that's the truth and it's like,

[00:11:41] okay, maybe there's a time where you're doing

[00:11:42] something cool and I'm excited about the brand.

[00:11:44] Okay, that can happen.

[00:11:46] It's like you force people into like literally lying

[00:11:51] and that's why like one of my biggest videos on

[00:11:54] Instagram and TikTok is you know, three lies.

[00:11:57] You got to say in the interview.

[00:11:58] Why do you want this job?

[00:11:59] Don't say money.

[00:12:00] Never say money.

[00:12:01] Where do you see yourself in five years?

[00:12:03] Gotta be at the company and it's just like right

[00:12:06] average 10 years two to three years.

[00:12:07] Like why are we asking these questions?

[00:12:09] Yeah.

[00:12:11] So yeah, I just think it's like this whole idea

[00:12:14] of like we're not it's just not the same workforce

[00:12:17] that was 20 30 years ago.

[00:12:18] We got to get past these things and like culture

[00:12:20] is a big deal, right?

[00:12:21] But it's not just answering questions in a robotic

[00:12:23] formula and like during an interview.

[00:12:26] It's more than that.

[00:12:27] But I also think it's culture is culture a big deal

[00:12:30] to like really I don't mean to be but you just said

[00:12:35] it so you just think it matters for some people

[00:12:37] and for the bulk of people who are in your

[00:12:39] organization.

[00:12:40] I don't think it matters that much.

[00:12:42] I think what they care about is their own skill

[00:12:45] growth.

[00:12:46] I think they care about their own career and it's

[00:12:49] like maybe we meet in the middle and go all right

[00:12:51] for this period of time.

[00:12:53] I'm gonna help you.

[00:12:53] You're gonna help me but it's this whole idea of

[00:12:56] like you seem to like job hopping and things like

[00:12:59] that.

[00:12:59] It's just this still these ideas that that's some

[00:13:01] kind of like negative thing.

[00:13:02] And I'm like look at the end of day.

[00:13:04] It's an employment contract.

[00:13:05] You're trading time skills right money.

[00:13:09] Yeah, it's interesting how you put that Joel

[00:13:12] because I think okay so William culture I think

[00:13:16] is important to the company.

[00:13:18] Oh hell yeah.

[00:13:19] I think for the culture to the only the lies we tell

[00:13:24] you have a person's boy culture culture to the

[00:13:26] employee.

[00:13:27] I think they want it to be important.

[00:13:29] They want to work for a company that means something

[00:13:32] to them.

[00:13:33] I don't think that actually happens now.

[00:13:36] I think the trust for that little Joel you're

[00:13:40] saying where for the that period of time that

[00:13:43] I'm at a company for that period of time.

[00:13:46] I'm trading my services for your money.

[00:13:49] Yeah, this is how the for skill right this is this is

[00:13:52] how our relationships going to be.

[00:13:54] I'm not gonna be here 30 years.

[00:13:56] You're not giving me a pension.

[00:13:57] My retirement comes with me.

[00:13:59] I go wherever I want to go.

[00:14:00] I'm gonna put the same money and get the same stuff

[00:14:03] back right like that's that's how we know where

[00:14:06] today our parents didn't know that right our

[00:14:08] grandparents didn't know what they they knew you

[00:14:10] go work for 30 years.

[00:14:12] You're gonna get this amount of money for the rest

[00:14:13] of your life on top of whatever you invested.

[00:14:16] We don't have most of us.

[00:14:18] I should say we most of us don't have that anymore.

[00:14:21] So I think culture is important in a company.

[00:14:24] I don't think the employees really care one way or

[00:14:26] the other.

[00:14:26] So long as the agreement is there.

[00:14:29] Think of it like this.

[00:14:30] You both all three of us have lots of family members

[00:14:32] right.

[00:14:34] Let's just say we have 40 family members that are

[00:14:37] living cousins and whatnot.

[00:14:39] How many of those people do you really love?

[00:14:42] Don't answer.

[00:14:43] Okay.

[00:14:47] You almost got me in trouble.

[00:14:50] All right now you live in a neighborhood.

[00:14:52] We all three live in neighborhoods.

[00:14:54] Yeah, it could be a condo or whatever.

[00:14:57] Okay.

[00:14:58] How many of those people that you live around?

[00:15:01] Do you even know their name?

[00:15:04] Much less like much less love and again don't answer.

[00:15:10] Yeah.

[00:15:10] That's I know for

[00:15:13] you know I know five by name five houses by name out of

[00:15:18] the entire development.

[00:15:19] Yeah, there's probably 150 homes here.

[00:15:22] I've lived in the same neighborhood for 24 years.

[00:15:24] Three three and I like and I like to that's it.

[00:15:29] That's it.

[00:15:30] Yeah, but my point is is that's the employee pool.

[00:15:34] Those are your peers.

[00:15:35] You don't have to like them.

[00:15:37] You don't have to know them.

[00:15:38] You don't have to love them this concept and this

[00:15:41] is one of the things I loved about Joel's topic is like

[00:15:43] this idea that you're going to come together just because

[00:15:46] of the shared work experience and be somehow tethered

[00:15:50] to these other people bullshit.

[00:15:52] Yeah, well that and that's and that's why I think like

[00:15:55] my mind when I think of culture it all meant to be goes

[00:15:57] to like cult right?

[00:15:59] I mean that's where like the word came from so it's

[00:16:01] like you're gonna get cold without the root word.

[00:16:03] How many times have I said cult over the last two

[00:16:06] weeks with Colch?

[00:16:08] What's the short of fanatic fan?

[00:16:13] Exactly.

[00:16:13] So I'm like, I just look at that and I'm like, I think

[00:16:17] I again like I think there can be like a core group

[00:16:20] of people and it can mean different things but the

[00:16:23] problem is it's like it's almost like it's just been

[00:16:26] like I remember when I got into the workforce, which

[00:16:28] you know, it's like 15 16 years ago.

[00:16:30] It's not like decades but when I got in it was

[00:16:33] like remember the first company I worked with

[00:16:35] it was an internship and they were like you got to go

[00:16:38] to that after hours things.

[00:16:39] You got to go play volleyball with team.

[00:16:41] You got to get involved in something and I'm like, I

[00:16:44] already work like eight hours.

[00:16:47] I was like, I'm not doing that.

[00:16:48] I live an hour and a half away.

[00:16:50] I live an hour and a half away.

[00:16:52] There's no way that I'm spending time with people

[00:16:54] outside of work.

[00:16:55] You lost me at Gata.

[00:16:56] You gotta do so this isn't Russia.

[00:16:59] Well, let me ask you this.

[00:17:01] I feel like we're on the same level here,

[00:17:04] the same plane here.

[00:17:05] I'll use the gym as an example.

[00:17:07] The people that I see at the gym.

[00:17:10] I don't want to see them outside the gym.

[00:17:12] When I see them outside the gym, they look ridiculous

[00:17:16] in clothes like outside of gym clothes.

[00:17:19] I think they look weird.

[00:17:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:17:21] This they'll go further but this will be a little bit

[00:17:24] inappropriate.

[00:17:25] So this is why you don't go to your local strip club.

[00:17:29] Yeah, you run in your run into your family.

[00:17:31] You don't want to see them.

[00:17:32] You don't want to see them.

[00:17:32] You're where the whole food's picking up and is like,

[00:17:35] Hey, hey, you look different in the light in the path.

[00:17:43] I've had I worked for a while and we would run in the

[00:17:47] local girls from the strip club and it was like when

[00:17:49] you just see people in the wrong environment or a

[00:17:51] different environment is different.

[00:17:54] Yeah, I think that's I should have known though with

[00:17:57] this company they wore me.

[00:17:58] They were we got a great culture.

[00:18:00] Oh, that was it.

[00:18:01] I was like, oh, that's good.

[00:18:02] Right.

[00:18:03] Everyone talks about it.

[00:18:04] I didn't know that that meant like I had to be obsessed

[00:18:07] with the company and like, yes, that stuff.

[00:18:10] Go drink with them.

[00:18:11] You got to go play softball so you better be good at

[00:18:14] softball.

[00:18:15] Now it's like a different pressure.

[00:18:17] You hired me to do this other thing and now I've

[00:18:20] got to hit balls.

[00:18:21] That's all that's that's what it felt like and but

[00:18:24] I just I just think that that mentality is just it's

[00:18:28] just changing.

[00:18:29] And then when you look at, you know, obviously like

[00:18:30] tiktok is and really, you know, it's there's a lot of

[00:18:33] Gen Z on tiktok.

[00:18:34] Right.

[00:18:34] So I can see a lot of that content and I just don't

[00:18:39] I don't see them carrying in the same way and I don't

[00:18:42] even really think all of us deep down like we're

[00:18:44] really into that but it's like at what point did

[00:18:46] that even become like a thing like you would

[00:18:48] bring up with grandparents.

[00:18:50] I don't remember my grandparents being like culture

[00:18:52] and that manufacturing line was amazing.

[00:18:55] It was like they just clocking clock out.

[00:18:57] They were locked in.

[00:18:58] They were locked in their culture was you stay here

[00:19:02] 35 years to retire.

[00:19:04] You retire my kids.

[00:19:07] They're both they're they're Gen Z and you know, the

[00:19:12] oldest one is deciding college and he has not

[00:19:15] said culture the entire time he's been looking

[00:19:18] at colleges.

[00:19:19] It's like he's looking at which one's going to help

[00:19:21] him get to the place he wants to get to other

[00:19:23] than that.

[00:19:25] That's the relationship.

[00:19:27] Yeah, that's the relationship.

[00:19:28] It's yeah.

[00:19:29] What are you going to do for me while I'm here

[00:19:31] to get me there which we have to adopt because

[00:19:36] if we don't adopt that for folks coming in, we're

[00:19:38] not going to be able to attract them.

[00:19:39] But isn't that a culture too?

[00:19:41] I mean, that's a culture of a company to say

[00:19:43] and I use that word snickering inside but

[00:19:47] a company if we okay so we built a company

[00:19:51] the employees come in.

[00:19:52] We know we tell them look we're not expecting you

[00:19:56] to be here in 10 years.

[00:19:58] We expect you during that couple of years that you're

[00:20:00] here to use us to get to where you want to go

[00:20:04] and we're going to do the same.

[00:20:06] We have that agreement.

[00:20:07] We know what we're going to do.

[00:20:08] We're going to make it fun.

[00:20:09] We're going to have fun.

[00:20:10] We're doing we're going to pay you well.

[00:20:12] You're going to work hard.

[00:20:13] We're going to work hard.

[00:20:14] Yeah, that reminds me of coach Cal at Memphis

[00:20:18] and then Kentucky and now at Arkansas is he was

[00:20:20] the first coach in college basketball to say

[00:20:23] the one and done's that's a great idea.

[00:20:26] So he attracted a lot of guys that basically

[00:20:29] come in one year.

[00:20:32] Give me one year.

[00:20:33] Well, first of all, legally had they had to.

[00:20:35] All right, but give me one year and I'm going

[00:20:38] to get you ready for the NBA.

[00:20:39] Exactly.

[00:20:40] That's it.

[00:20:40] That's it.

[00:20:41] Like like so he embraced that.

[00:20:42] I think that is a culture.

[00:20:44] Give a guy expectations and just kill it.

[00:20:47] And I think that that's like I just had a podcast.

[00:20:52] My late stepson actually came out today and the girl

[00:20:55] who was on it, she's got a company that does they look

[00:20:58] at like compensations.

[00:20:59] And so like when you send out an offer like you get

[00:21:02] to like the candidate actually gets to see like what

[00:21:04] equity looks like and explains cool super like and then

[00:21:08] they can like analyze like where people are spending

[00:21:11] most time on the offer as well by the mouse pointing

[00:21:14] and guess what?

[00:21:14] The major places of money, you know, it's not the

[00:21:17] it's not the team members.

[00:21:18] So is the shock.

[00:21:20] I know.

[00:21:20] Shocking.

[00:21:21] And she's like, yeah, we can see how many times they click

[00:21:23] on it.

[00:21:24] Anyway, what was cool about her approach?

[00:21:27] Number one, we had the whole talk about like Nike

[00:21:30] and the CEO saying about remote work and we

[00:21:33] disagree because I was like remote work.

[00:21:35] I don't see stifling innovation in that way.

[00:21:37] She's like, no, I make sure all my company

[00:21:39] were a startup in the Bay Area.

[00:21:41] Everybody's in the office.

[00:21:42] So, okay, interesting.

[00:21:43] So we disagree on that.

[00:21:44] But then what she said was she like she'll bring people

[00:21:47] into the organization and then she teaches them like how

[00:21:51] to get funding and like just like all around business

[00:21:54] and her mindset is what you just described Ryan,

[00:21:57] which is like, hey, I'm going to like teach you

[00:22:00] like business.

[00:22:01] I'm going to invest in the things that you care about

[00:22:04] and guess what?

[00:22:05] Then people are willing to go into the office

[00:22:07] and it's just I think that's she has that mindset of

[00:22:11] like, hey, you're probably going to be someone who wants

[00:22:13] to start your own business.

[00:22:14] So instead of like being scared of that and be like,

[00:22:16] where are we?

[00:22:17] So I'm self in five years.

[00:22:17] Let's help you build and get to the next exactly.

[00:22:20] And just understanding that like, you know, this person

[00:22:23] who's even just starting out like they had their own

[00:22:25] goals and their aspirations, which is why again,

[00:22:28] like with that non-compete thing that passed

[00:22:31] and I think those types of things are exciting

[00:22:33] because it's like companies own people.

[00:22:36] Right.

[00:22:36] And I think that's this is this is where.

[00:22:39] Yeah, I think this is this idea of like just companies

[00:22:42] like owning everything, owning your brand, owning your time.

[00:22:45] And you know, I think coaches like you're describing

[00:22:48] and they're going to be more flexible and like understanding

[00:22:51] of people and yeah, it's okay if you took some time

[00:22:54] to start your own business or do something on the side

[00:22:57] even.

[00:22:58] Why not?

[00:23:00] I mean, I feel like William and we've been together.

[00:23:03] Okay.

[00:23:04] We'll quit.

[00:23:04] Right.

[00:23:05] It's like the language that we've created over time.

[00:23:09] Joel, like you just said on the side, it's for the folks

[00:23:12] that are doing it is it isn't on the side.

[00:23:15] It's just a part of what they do.

[00:23:17] Exactly.

[00:23:17] But we you know, I mean, like it's yeah, that side hustle

[00:23:21] that we've kind of demonized through the years

[00:23:23] through the decades like you're somehow stealing

[00:23:27] from the company because you're doing this other thing

[00:23:29] over here is like it isn't other.

[00:23:32] It's an addition.

[00:23:33] Yeah.

[00:23:33] And so I think we have to change our vernacular.

[00:23:36] I think we have to change the way that we talk because

[00:23:40] it could come across as derogatory.

[00:23:41] It's like, no, it's a gigs like I've tried it this out

[00:23:45] with my sons just to kind of see what they thought

[00:23:47] about it.

[00:23:48] I'm like career.

[00:23:50] What is that?

[00:23:50] They had no idea.

[00:23:51] John, what is that?

[00:23:52] No idea.

[00:23:53] I'm like gig all of them both both boys knew

[00:23:56] what a gig was.

[00:23:57] That's cool driver.

[00:23:58] All right.

[00:23:59] Absolutely.

[00:23:59] Absolutely.

[00:24:00] So it's like thinking in gigs and you can work several

[00:24:04] gigs simultaneously.

[00:24:05] Why not?

[00:24:06] It doesn't matter, right?

[00:24:07] It doesn't it doesn't take away.

[00:24:09] It's not it's just it's just another thing that you do.

[00:24:13] It's an addition right now.

[00:24:14] I totally know.

[00:24:15] No, no, you're good.

[00:24:17] I mean if you can manage your time properly and you can

[00:24:19] work three and calm jobs, I like I you know,

[00:24:22] I like the word gigs.

[00:24:23] If you can drive over DoorDash, you can run your

[00:24:27] content business.

[00:24:28] You can consult with people.

[00:24:30] You can you can do a lot of things.

[00:24:32] Yeah.

[00:24:34] Doing doing the the Uber being an Uber driver on the

[00:24:40] side of having another job that fuels your other job,

[00:24:44] right?

[00:24:44] That fuels your ability to do now.

[00:24:47] You could make the argument.

[00:24:48] You're just not getting paid enough.

[00:24:49] Okay.

[00:24:50] That's fine as well.

[00:24:52] But I agree.

[00:24:52] I don't think it's any longer.

[00:24:54] I don't think side hustle is the appropriate

[00:24:57] terminology for it.

[00:24:58] It's just part of life.

[00:25:01] This is how we live and honestly since I mean,

[00:25:05] I haven't been in a corporate in a corporate setting in

[00:25:08] a long time now.

[00:25:09] I'm going on 10 years now.

[00:25:11] I don't know that I would want to go back.

[00:25:13] It's I don't know anything different anymore.

[00:25:15] Right?

[00:25:16] I don't know anything different.

[00:25:17] Right.

[00:25:17] I need to be in this environment.

[00:25:18] I think to fuel myself to actually want to what I

[00:25:21] was going to say earlier was the when you had

[00:25:25] mentioned about companies don't own people except

[00:25:28] for pizza makers.

[00:25:32] So we they the call we had today, the episode we had

[00:25:36] today around the non-competes.

[00:25:39] Yeah.

[00:25:40] What was the example?

[00:25:41] It was the the pizza shops had not competes on the

[00:25:44] on the pizza on the pizza makers.

[00:25:46] Yeah.

[00:25:47] They put non-competes on the pizza makers which

[00:25:50] I thought was hilarious.

[00:25:51] Who does that?

[00:25:52] Who what type of evil do you have to be to put non-competes

[00:25:57] on guys that are making pizza, not chefs.

[00:26:00] Different gig pizza.

[00:26:02] No, these are guys back in the back.

[00:26:04] They're putting sauce on dough and putting toppings

[00:26:07] and cheese and putting it in another.

[00:26:10] Yeah.

[00:26:10] That's crazy.

[00:26:12] Now if it was a if it was an agreement of like,

[00:26:15] hey, this is our secret sauce.

[00:26:17] Yeah.

[00:26:18] It's literally our sauce not like our like this is

[00:26:21] our sauce like this is our recipe type.

[00:26:23] Well, it's like an NDA.

[00:26:25] I mean, yeah.

[00:26:26] It's an NDA and then don't allow the pizza chef the

[00:26:29] pizza guy to make the sauce.

[00:26:32] You make the sauce and he just puts it on.

[00:26:35] Yeah.

[00:26:35] Anyone can figure it out with has ability to taste

[00:26:38] they're going to taste your pizza and say well,

[00:26:40] you hear the 12 things in there.

[00:26:42] So what's the dirtiest you've ever felt selling culture?

[00:26:47] So like go back through your history.

[00:26:49] Yeah.

[00:26:50] I've got it in my head right now.

[00:26:53] There's a piece still show or well,

[00:26:56] it's because it's because of like what happened after,

[00:27:00] you know, like the nine months afterwards.

[00:27:02] So right.

[00:27:04] I was working with a client locally to me and it was

[00:27:06] just ready.

[00:27:07] I hate to say like red flags, but like the first red

[00:27:11] flag was when me and the account manager at the time

[00:27:14] who's who's working as I was just working as a consultant.

[00:27:17] We had an account manager managing a relationship

[00:27:19] and the account manager happened to be a friend of mine.

[00:27:22] He was younger than me and and so this guy gets on and

[00:27:28] you know, he was like late 50s maybe 60s.

[00:27:31] He's like, Oh, a couple millennials like you're living

[00:27:34] in your parents' basement.

[00:27:35] It just like kept like saying like stuff and then I send

[00:27:38] people over and it was just like weird comments about

[00:27:41] like all the stuff we're talking about like be like,

[00:27:43] oh what's his gap in this work and it was over and over.

[00:27:47] It was like just so difficult and we got to a point

[00:27:49] where I just had to have a conversation and just said,

[00:27:51] look, I'm not going to keep sending people.

[00:27:54] Like you need to have a conversation with one of these

[00:27:56] people like you guys don't have any brand recognition here.

[00:28:00] You've got really not working with anything.

[00:28:02] So you need to have a conversation with anybody that

[00:28:04] I get for you and I'm you know, I'm in Wisconsin.

[00:28:07] So it's kind of out in the middle of nowhere anyway

[00:28:10] and trying to get like a top sales person is a challenge.

[00:28:13] So he ended up having a conversation with this

[00:28:16] woman I sent through.

[00:28:17] It was great.

[00:28:19] It seemed great or she was excited, but really she just

[00:28:22] was not enjoying her current job right?

[00:28:23] She'd been there for eight years.

[00:28:26] She just was hating her own job so much that she was

[00:28:29] willing to consider anything and so we painted this

[00:28:32] picture of like, hey, there's so much opportunity you

[00:28:34] could get to go internationally, you know,

[00:28:36] and it's going to be collaborative.

[00:28:38] The office is great.

[00:28:39] They just have like a rehab like you're going to love

[00:28:41] it there blah, blah, blah and literally four months

[00:28:45] later after she signed everything went through and

[00:28:48] it granted.

[00:28:48] She went through the interview process.

[00:28:50] So there's always that where it's like, hey,

[00:28:51] if you interviewed right, you got to do a little

[00:28:54] due diligence yourself, but as a recruiter,

[00:28:57] it's like, you know, I'm getting over the line

[00:28:59] and getting it to accept the offer and then four

[00:29:01] months later, you know, she ended up leaving

[00:29:05] through like harassment and all this sort of stuff

[00:29:08] and you know, it's like you feel terrible because

[00:29:11] again, it's like it's someone's life decision.

[00:29:13] You know, it's a big decision and

[00:29:15] and she reached out to me and was like, you know,

[00:29:17] I love all your content on social media.

[00:29:19] It's hilarious and like I love your points of view.

[00:29:21] And thanks.

[00:29:22] She's like, but man that job was terrible.

[00:29:25] And so, but as an agency recruiter, this is a dilemma,

[00:29:28] right?

[00:29:29] Like they don't call us in the great companies aren't

[00:29:32] like, hey, we need help like hiring people.

[00:29:35] We always get like the worst like the people

[00:29:37] who can't attract anything and that's who we work

[00:29:39] for.

[00:29:40] So it's like you are literally you just selling

[00:29:42] people on like a dream that doesn't exist.

[00:29:45] But that by far was the worst one because it's just like,

[00:29:47] I don't know.

[00:29:48] It's like your own brands in there too.

[00:29:50] And then I'm posting stuff like about toxic bosses

[00:29:53] and yeah, all this stuff.

[00:29:55] And she's like, yeah, if you have like baseline

[00:30:00] beating heart before you care.

[00:30:02] Exactly.

[00:30:03] And so yeah.

[00:30:04] And so in the end it does bother you.

[00:30:07] Yeah.

[00:30:07] I'll never forget that one though.

[00:30:09] And it was like, and I but to be fair, I told

[00:30:11] the account manager we needed to fire the client

[00:30:14] because that's how my like my mentality was always

[00:30:17] like if someone's just terrible, like you just

[00:30:19] don't care if they're paying you money.

[00:30:20] Just drop them and they're not worth it because

[00:30:22] you only get to get one search out of him.

[00:30:24] It's going to be a nightmare.

[00:30:25] You probably have to replace the person in 90 days

[00:30:27] anyway.

[00:30:29] Just walk away.

[00:30:30] But you know, he's like, no, no, we can make it

[00:30:33] work learn.

[00:30:34] I'm like this guy is like 60 learning anything new.

[00:30:37] Okay.

[00:30:38] No, he's not learning.

[00:30:39] No, because he's got the game set up the way

[00:30:41] he wants the game to be played.

[00:30:43] Exactly.

[00:30:44] So you're just a minion at that point selling

[00:30:47] something on his behalf or behalf, whatever.

[00:30:50] Yeah.

[00:30:51] Have either of you had to sell something that you

[00:30:54] knew was toxic like like really like you just

[00:30:58] knew I've had enough.

[00:30:59] I've asked the other recursive by the way that

[00:31:02] they knew what they were doing.

[00:31:04] They knew this is a this is a bad environment.

[00:31:07] What it could doesn't have to be toxic.

[00:31:09] It's just a bad environment.

[00:31:11] I mean, I mean, like really hard,

[00:31:13] whatever I've definitely worked a lot of because

[00:31:15] I worked in the construction industry for a

[00:31:19] decent amount of time and I was doing for these

[00:31:21] like mid-sized GC's and right.

[00:31:24] You know, it's a tough one because you can you hear

[00:31:26] the word in the street, right?

[00:31:27] Like you because once you start going out there,

[00:31:29] particularly in these smaller markets, like everybody

[00:31:31] knows each other because they're all going

[00:31:32] on the same events.

[00:31:33] So right you start to I definitely work with

[00:31:36] companies where like I've known they've got

[00:31:38] issues.

[00:31:39] I mean, you know, it's not just like a glass

[00:31:41] door.

[00:31:41] You just you send people message to 20 messages

[00:31:44] and 80 18 of them are like, oh, I hate that guy.

[00:31:47] Like, you know, there's a problem.

[00:31:49] So I work with a handful of clients like that,

[00:31:51] but I what I was trying to do is just try and be

[00:31:54] I try and just be as transparent as possible.

[00:31:56] And be like, hey, look, you probably have heard

[00:31:57] of some issues, but I would also go to the

[00:32:00] clients and be like, look, this is what people

[00:32:01] are saying.

[00:32:01] Like, are you guys doing anything about this?

[00:32:04] And you know, so a lot of the clients would

[00:32:06] be like, yeah, actually, we know this is an

[00:32:07] issue.

[00:32:07] This is what we're trying to do and try

[00:32:10] to use that as like a selling point for you

[00:32:11] because some people who people like that

[00:32:13] challenge, right?

[00:32:14] Like going in and fixing something.

[00:32:18] But that's as close as I get.

[00:32:19] I mean, again, like I was pretty big on just

[00:32:22] like firing like if I find out someone's

[00:32:25] just a dick or they're just deliberately

[00:32:28] like just a bad person like illegal

[00:32:31] whatever.

[00:32:31] Well, I had one guy just early on in my

[00:32:33] career and he I submitted a Canada and

[00:32:36] he I get an email back and it's it's a you

[00:32:40] you know, like you care is it you care

[00:32:43] way like crowdfund and it's like you care

[00:32:46] it's up.

[00:32:47] It's got the candidates name and then it's

[00:32:49] got it's got a diagnosis definition of

[00:32:52] leukemia and like how long you have to

[00:32:54] live and I'm like, oh, is this and he's

[00:32:57] like just Googled her found out she had

[00:33:00] cancer.

[00:33:01] I think she had cancer.

[00:33:03] Right.

[00:33:03] I'm like, dude, like you understand like

[00:33:06] how insanely offensive this is like this

[00:33:10] is just weird man.

[00:33:11] Like you just how can I ever if this is

[00:33:13] how you're responding to me like how can

[00:33:15] I ever like send any get unsee that.

[00:33:19] Oh no, I can't know that I can't

[00:33:21] hear that you just had to make sorry.

[00:33:24] So never lose my contact information and

[00:33:26] we just all will like, hey, we're

[00:33:27] not going to work with this person

[00:33:28] anymore.

[00:33:29] Right.

[00:33:29] And it was like it was like my first,

[00:33:31] you know, three months in recruitment

[00:33:33] to and I'm just like, it's good.

[00:33:35] I'm like, it's better that than to get

[00:33:38] 10 years in and be warped and all of a

[00:33:40] sudden be blindsided by something.

[00:33:42] I think it's good to have that early

[00:33:44] early in your career because it's like,

[00:33:45] okay, that's now I know what I don't

[00:33:47] want to do.

[00:33:48] Yeah, exactly.

[00:33:50] Exactly.

[00:33:50] All right.

[00:33:50] Any hot takes on employer branding

[00:33:52] or kind of the way people position

[00:33:55] their culture or their brand?

[00:33:58] Yeah, look, I think I don't know

[00:34:00] if you guys saw that I'm sure you did

[00:34:01] the whole cloud flare, flare saga

[00:34:04] that happened a couple months ago.

[00:34:05] Right.

[00:34:05] So yeah, video layoff.

[00:34:08] This is amazing.

[00:34:09] Yeah.

[00:34:09] The new trend.

[00:34:10] That was the volume.

[00:34:11] Yeah.

[00:34:12] Girl, the girl had their video streaming

[00:34:15] from the sun.

[00:34:18] Tell me why again?

[00:34:19] I don't understand.

[00:34:22] You're it doesn't make it.

[00:34:23] It's foul.

[00:34:24] Jesus doesn't make sense.

[00:34:26] And and like I think like it's

[00:34:28] just then like I hear the CEL's explanation

[00:34:31] and it's like, well, you know, we hire

[00:34:33] winners and you know, it's like they could

[00:34:35] be a great sports player, but just be on

[00:34:37] the wrong team, you know, and you use

[00:34:39] a sports analogy.

[00:34:41] But then I go to the website, just go

[00:34:43] to the career page and they're leading

[00:34:45] with like inclusivity and like they're

[00:34:48] leading with all the fields.

[00:34:49] And I'm like, this is where we get it

[00:34:51] wrong.

[00:34:52] Like just and I've had people on like

[00:34:54] TikTok kind of say, well, every company

[00:34:56] wants winners, right?

[00:34:57] Like no one wants losers.

[00:34:58] Like everyone wants top performers,

[00:35:00] right?

[00:35:00] But I'm just kind of saying like why

[00:35:02] why are you leading with like inclusivity

[00:35:05] and like making people feel good when

[00:35:07] like that's not really like the culture

[00:35:10] that your leaders are talking about

[00:35:12] like and I think like what's happened

[00:35:14] is just this whole idea of like huge

[00:35:17] top of funnel.

[00:35:18] Like we got to have thousands of applicants.

[00:35:19] We got to have lots of people instead

[00:35:23] of just I think just more transparency

[00:35:25] with what the culture is like and like

[00:35:27] what your actual mantra is like and

[00:35:29] people says going to be plenty of people

[00:35:31] who are like, yeah, that's not for me.

[00:35:33] Which is the goal?

[00:35:34] That is the goal.

[00:35:36] Always been the goal.

[00:35:37] I don't know why that's not the goal.

[00:35:39] Screen people in instead of out.

[00:35:41] You'll be much more.

[00:35:41] Well, right if that CEO would have

[00:35:44] if the career site would have been,

[00:35:46] hey listen, we look at this like a

[00:35:49] franchise, a football franchise, basketball

[00:35:52] franchise, pick a franchise as you

[00:35:53] like every year we reset.

[00:35:56] Yeah, every year is going to be the top

[00:35:58] X percent and then that means that

[00:36:00] every year we're going to have to go

[00:36:01] through some people we have to cut.

[00:36:03] No, yeah.

[00:36:03] So in 12 months you may be cut,

[00:36:06] but you can work here today.

[00:36:07] That's but you know what?

[00:36:09] If you know that going in and everywhere

[00:36:12] through the process you've learned

[00:36:13] that it's like actually I actually

[00:36:15] wouldn't hate that to be honest.

[00:36:17] I would personally be attracted to that

[00:36:21] because I could say where am I going

[00:36:23] to end up and I would work to get to a

[00:36:26] certain level and not just to impress

[00:36:28] people, but it would actually be fun

[00:36:30] for me to do that.

[00:36:31] I would actually appreciate your competitive

[00:36:33] person.

[00:36:34] So you'd enjoy that because you'd like

[00:36:37] the first of all the honesty and

[00:36:39] transparency, but it's like, okay,

[00:36:40] I got to earn my spot every year.

[00:36:42] Okay.

[00:36:43] Yeah, I had exact and exactly.

[00:36:46] And obviously that was a sales position.

[00:36:48] So kind of get it.

[00:36:49] But then like I heard, you know,

[00:36:52] again, we're talking about like recruiters

[00:36:53] selling a dream.

[00:36:55] Like I heard, you know,

[00:36:57] girl got laid off.

[00:36:58] She's like talking about the process

[00:37:00] and she's like, yeah, it was like they

[00:37:02] kept saying we want to invest in people

[00:37:03] long term.

[00:37:04] We want to invest in you long term.

[00:37:05] And it was a long interview process

[00:37:07] as well.

[00:37:08] I'm just like, like, okay,

[00:37:10] that was the investment.

[00:37:11] Exactly.

[00:37:12] And it's like, yeah, and I think

[00:37:14] this is where like again kind of going

[00:37:16] into like this is what's happened.

[00:37:17] And I correct me even wrong.

[00:37:19] Maybe this didn't happen, but in my

[00:37:21] one of my vision is a bunch of like

[00:37:22] culture consultants popping up that

[00:37:24] are making tons of money going in

[00:37:25] and saying this is how you do culture.

[00:37:28] And then it's like everything then

[00:37:30] is a repercussion of that.

[00:37:32] You got recruiters selling these

[00:37:33] cultures, not really telling the

[00:37:35] truth about what's going on.

[00:37:36] Then you got candidates lying about

[00:37:38] what they're doing.

[00:37:39] And then it's like onboardings

[00:37:40] a lie and just like just be able

[00:37:43] to kind of turn.

[00:37:44] You know, I feel like this is

[00:37:46] network marketing.

[00:37:48] Yeah.

[00:37:48] Yeah.

[00:37:49] We see this so many organizations.

[00:37:51] You you have a killer branding team

[00:37:54] who doesn't take into consideration

[00:37:57] the actual organization, right?

[00:37:59] They're worried about the creative

[00:38:01] the messaging, the copy, this to that.

[00:38:03] And then they disseminate, right?

[00:38:05] They do their thing, right?

[00:38:06] They get it.

[00:38:06] It looks beautiful.

[00:38:07] They get the website going.

[00:38:09] They spend hundreds of thousands

[00:38:10] on the fucking copy all this stuff.

[00:38:13] They hold town halls.

[00:38:14] They bring it down into the

[00:38:15] organization, but the leadership

[00:38:19] the middle managers, they don't

[00:38:21] believe in it.

[00:38:22] They were part of it, right?

[00:38:24] So there it's just it's a marketing

[00:38:26] message put down into the organization

[00:38:29] and the employees sometimes believe

[00:38:31] it and they're like they're jazzed

[00:38:32] up about it, but then it's not

[00:38:34] managed into the organization.

[00:38:35] There's no change.

[00:38:37] Yeah.

[00:38:38] Exactly.

[00:38:38] And I think that's why it's like

[00:38:39] with the employer branding.

[00:38:40] It's I think it's just got to get

[00:38:43] that balance of real talk about

[00:38:46] like who you are and what it's like.

[00:38:48] And honestly, I think it's also

[00:38:50] within the recruitment process as

[00:38:52] well.

[00:38:52] Like we just got to get away from

[00:38:54] like the selling mentality in

[00:38:57] recruiting and like.

[00:38:58] Well, some of that is old for me

[00:39:00] is becoming are you a company

[00:39:02] advocate or a candidate advocate?

[00:39:05] If you're a candidate advocate

[00:39:07] and that's just true to your

[00:39:08] heart, then you're just going

[00:39:10] to tell the truth when I say,

[00:39:11] hey, do they really promote women?

[00:39:14] And you're like, you know what?

[00:39:16] I haven't seen that.

[00:39:17] Exactly.

[00:39:18] I haven't seen that.

[00:39:18] Does it mean that it won't happen

[00:39:20] with you?

[00:39:20] But I haven't seen that so far

[00:39:22] and all the people I've interviewed

[00:39:23] and all the people that I know

[00:39:25] there, I don't I don't I came

[00:39:26] up not going to lie to you just

[00:39:28] not going to lie to you.

[00:39:29] And so like work life balance is

[00:39:31] another one which like everybody

[00:39:33] just like the greatest work life

[00:39:35] balance.

[00:39:36] And then it's like you get in

[00:39:36] there.

[00:39:37] It's like 90 hour work week

[00:39:38] and you work in your life.

[00:39:41] Why do you just say that?

[00:39:43] Why am I?

[00:39:45] I think recruiters should be an

[00:39:47] advocate for the candidate.

[00:39:49] I don't think they it's a it's a

[00:39:52] challenge, right?

[00:39:53] They have to have the company in

[00:39:55] mind.

[00:39:56] I get it.

[00:39:57] But they're the they're they're

[00:39:59] an agent of the of the candidate

[00:40:01] 100% should be even though

[00:40:03] we think about like if you are

[00:40:05] like that in the long term,

[00:40:08] you you're doing it for the

[00:40:09] company, right?

[00:40:10] Because if you actually tell

[00:40:11] some of the truth,

[00:40:11] you like, hey, based on what

[00:40:13] you said, like I actually don't

[00:40:14] think they're based on what I

[00:40:16] know.

[00:40:16] It's a good one.

[00:40:17] But then it's the hiring

[00:40:18] managers in there as well.

[00:40:19] It's like the KPIs in recruitment.

[00:40:22] A lot of times are not helping

[00:40:23] recruitment because it's a lot

[00:40:25] of right number of

[00:40:26] applicants number of your drive

[00:40:28] for behavior.

[00:40:29] They do like a one and a

[00:40:30] truly last agency I worked at

[00:40:32] was like all about sendouts

[00:40:34] and because yeah, because

[00:40:36] they've done a math equation

[00:40:37] and gone well if you get 30

[00:40:38] sendouts and you get this

[00:40:39] much.

[00:40:39] Yeah, you get this in the

[00:40:40] office.

[00:40:40] And my focus was like I don't

[00:40:42] care how many sendouts.

[00:40:43] I get I want to have

[00:40:44] Yeah, great sendouts.

[00:40:47] So like I am not like trying to

[00:40:48] like just do a math equation

[00:40:50] because it's like it doesn't

[00:40:51] always work out like that.

[00:40:52] Like I'm more focused on like

[00:40:53] trying to find the right person

[00:40:55] for that organization.

[00:40:56] The problem was is like again

[00:40:58] it's these like KPIs.

[00:41:00] Yeah, you were on a leadership

[00:41:02] board.

[00:41:03] Yeah, well, you're right,

[00:41:04] William, they incentivize poor

[00:41:05] behavior.

[00:41:06] Joel, I'll send you in a

[00:41:07] mouth and the both of you

[00:41:08] won't leave you out William.

[00:41:10] I was doing some cleaning out

[00:41:11] the other day

[00:41:13] and I found a ton folders

[00:41:16] like stacks of paperwork from

[00:41:19] an agency I used to work out.

[00:41:21] It's exactly what it was send

[00:41:23] out callbacks interviews

[00:41:25] connects clicks the whole

[00:41:27] that and I kept it for whatever

[00:41:29] reason it was in this box

[00:41:32] folders.

[00:41:33] I took it was wrong.

[00:41:35] I do is wrong.

[00:41:36] So I threw it all out but I

[00:41:37] took photos of them.

[00:41:38] Well, I got to take photos

[00:41:40] of some of this to share

[00:41:41] with people because I just

[00:41:41] thought it was hilarious.

[00:41:42] That's a LinkedIn post.

[00:41:44] Here's what not to do.

[00:41:45] Yeah, this image.

[00:41:47] Yeah, that's why I think you

[00:41:48] do that and for some reason

[00:41:50] like internally it's

[00:41:53] you know, it's always the thing

[00:41:54] you hear like, Oh, I want to

[00:41:55] do more applicants.

[00:41:56] And I'm like, No, you don't

[00:41:58] like we don't need one again.

[00:42:01] The right people.

[00:42:02] It doesn't matter if this

[00:42:03] five of them or one of them.

[00:42:05] You know, it's like the

[00:42:05] quality matters and I think

[00:42:07] that's where

[00:42:09] again, like the employer

[00:42:10] branding.

[00:42:12] You want to you want to

[00:42:13] I think of it like

[00:42:15] you don't want to net.

[00:42:16] You want like a trap, right?

[00:42:18] And it's like the difference

[00:42:18] between the two and it's like

[00:42:20] you because with traps

[00:42:21] you're like trying to get

[00:42:22] specific, you know, animal

[00:42:23] or whatever you and then

[00:42:24] obviously it's not maybe

[00:42:26] the best analogy but with like

[00:42:27] a net you just like whatever

[00:42:28] is in there will take it

[00:42:30] and then you have to look

[00:42:31] through with a trap.

[00:42:32] It's like a little bit

[00:42:33] more focused on like

[00:42:33] that's what employer branding

[00:42:34] needs to think about like

[00:42:36] now and I tell people that

[00:42:39] when you're doing with EB for

[00:42:41] so many years it's all been

[00:42:42] kind of skewed to attract.

[00:42:44] Yeah, exactly.

[00:42:45] What can you do to attract?

[00:42:46] So everything is

[00:42:48] you look at the career

[00:42:49] sites, you look at the job

[00:42:50] descriptions.

[00:42:50] Everything is about

[00:42:52] everything being glorious.

[00:42:53] It's almost Disneyland

[00:42:54] Disney World kind of ask.

[00:42:56] Here's a perfect place

[00:42:59] that has perfect shit

[00:43:00] and perfect people

[00:43:01] and you'll love it

[00:43:02] for utopia.

[00:43:04] But really it should

[00:43:05] attract and repel.

[00:43:07] So those things

[00:43:08] if someone comes in like I

[00:43:10] Amazon's a great example of this

[00:43:11] because they're not really known

[00:43:13] for work-life balance.

[00:43:15] Yeah.

[00:43:15] And years ago the New York Times

[00:43:17] took them to task for this

[00:43:18] and I said this is a bad culture.

[00:43:21] I'm like it's not a bad culture.

[00:43:23] Yeah, it's their culture.

[00:43:25] Exactly.

[00:43:25] That's basically if you take

[00:43:27] Amazon you take any company

[00:43:28] on Wall Street.

[00:43:29] They have the exact same culture.

[00:43:32] So why would you say

[00:43:33] this about Amazon?

[00:43:34] They just say hey listen,

[00:43:35] it's a shark infested

[00:43:36] waters, it's meritocracy based.

[00:43:40] If you expect work-life balance

[00:43:42] don't come to work here.

[00:43:43] You're like that's the bit

[00:43:44] and people know that when they

[00:43:45] apply they're like okay.

[00:43:48] I can see myself being here.

[00:43:50] Yeah.

[00:43:50] And so it attracts

[00:43:51] that group of people

[00:43:52] and it should repel

[00:43:54] people that are not like that.

[00:43:56] Exactly.

[00:43:56] And I think that's the fear

[00:43:57] right all the time

[00:43:58] it says repelling

[00:43:59] and it's the same with like

[00:44:00] you know personal branding

[00:44:01] is the same thing

[00:44:02] we were talking about this before

[00:44:03] my personal brand

[00:44:04] does not attract

[00:44:05] like the big big

[00:44:06] you know like you know

[00:44:08] Nike's not knocking on my door

[00:44:09] going Joel can you represent us

[00:44:10] like you just back to CEO.

[00:44:12] No, I'm not going to

[00:44:13] you know never going to happen

[00:44:14] and I'm okay with that

[00:44:16] because I enjoy actually working

[00:44:17] with like smaller companies

[00:44:19] and startups

[00:44:20] right allow some freedom.

[00:44:22] But that's

[00:44:23] that's what happens

[00:44:23] with your personal brand as well

[00:44:25] and it's like the best

[00:44:26] personal brands are the ones

[00:44:27] that have a point of view

[00:44:29] and you stand with that

[00:44:30] and you you know

[00:44:31] and somebody comes

[00:44:32] and argues with you

[00:44:34] you just like yeah

[00:44:35] okay well you have a strong

[00:44:36] point of view too great

[00:44:37] that was a whole idea

[00:44:37] trying to get a conversation

[00:44:39] and I think with the employer

[00:44:40] branding like you said

[00:44:41] like it is like

[00:44:43] and I someone recently sent me

[00:44:44] a culture video

[00:44:45] and they were like

[00:44:46] oh what do you think about this

[00:44:47] and I'm like

[00:44:48] it's just

[00:44:49] I don't believe it

[00:44:50] I just I don't believe it

[00:44:51] because I've

[00:44:52] I've worked at companies

[00:44:53] before it's like the first

[00:44:55] two months everyone's excited

[00:44:56] and it's like six months

[00:44:57] you get in the

[00:44:58] conversation under the scenes

[00:45:00] and it's like

[00:45:01] people just have pissed off

[00:45:02] behind the scenes

[00:45:04] and it's like

[00:45:05] I'm not saying

[00:45:05] you necessarily put that out there

[00:45:08] but like you said

[00:45:09] it's like this perfect place

[00:45:11] ideas is

[00:45:12] but I don't think Gen Z

[00:45:14] this is this is again

[00:45:15] like I get really into the video

[00:45:16] and like why a platform

[00:45:18] like TikTok

[00:45:19] or like this short form

[00:45:20] video is really powerful

[00:45:21] and it's because as

[00:45:22] the videos that go viral

[00:45:24] now they're all the authentic ones

[00:45:26] and then not really well produced

[00:45:28] it's just like a person

[00:45:30] kind of just speaking

[00:45:31] almost like a FaceTime to many

[00:45:33] and I think within corporate culture

[00:45:36] we kind of need more content

[00:45:37] like instead of

[00:45:38] instead of even looking at like

[00:45:39] hey let's have a created

[00:45:40] like you said Ryan

[00:45:41] having that creative employer branding team

[00:45:43] let's just look at our employees

[00:45:46] and like let's do some stuff with them

[00:45:48] and it's okay if it's a little bit awkward

[00:45:50] it's okay if it's not perfect

[00:45:52] quite yeah

[00:45:53] because that's what people

[00:45:54] that's going to relate to you

[00:45:55] so oh

[00:45:55] whoa like

[00:45:56] I'm into that

[00:45:57] or whatever you know what I'm saying it's

[00:45:58] do you try

[00:45:59] this is the funny

[00:46:00] I

[00:46:00] and then I know we got to go

[00:46:01] because of time

[00:46:02] but like when I watch a

[00:46:04] when I watch a YouTube short

[00:46:06] or a TikTok

[00:46:07] and it's

[00:46:08] seems too well produced

[00:46:10] yeah

[00:46:11] I don't feel right

[00:46:12] this is the weirdest thing in the world

[00:46:13] because it's counter to like

[00:46:14] you think like

[00:46:15] yeah I want good lighting

[00:46:16] and yeah

[00:46:17] the audio

[00:46:18] I want good audio

[00:46:19] and stuff like that

[00:46:19] but it's like

[00:46:20] if it's too good

[00:46:21] I'm like

[00:46:22] exactly

[00:46:22] I don't believe this shit

[00:46:23] well it's

[00:46:24] it's and most of the

[00:46:25] and this is where like

[00:46:27] I've been talking a lot about this

[00:46:28] like

[00:46:29] just a power video in general

[00:46:31] and

[00:46:32] the like

[00:46:33] because it

[00:46:34] you know I

[00:46:35] popped off on Instagram

[00:46:36] maybe

[00:46:37] two or three

[00:46:37] 90 days ago

[00:46:38] like I started putting some of my content on

[00:46:40] on Instagram

[00:46:41] and I went from like 0 to

[00:46:42] 170,000 followers

[00:46:44] which is insane

[00:46:45] but when I look at a lot of the content on there

[00:46:47] a lot of it's like these like

[00:46:48] 5 second videos

[00:46:49] with like some text

[00:46:51] and it's like

[00:46:52] what is that

[00:46:53] and then my videos are on there

[00:46:54] and it's just like a

[00:46:55] minute and a half rant

[00:46:57] on how

[00:46:58] working hard is useless

[00:46:59] and being

[00:47:00] you know just learn how to like get

[00:47:02] learn how to get people to like you

[00:47:03] that are going to give you promotions or

[00:47:05] here's how you lie in interviews

[00:47:06] and it's literally me with a phone

[00:47:09] it's just doing like a FaceTime video

[00:47:11] and doesn't get in millions of views

[00:47:12] and it's because

[00:47:13] I do think there's like

[00:47:15] we have an influencer culture

[00:47:16] which is also losing a lot of power

[00:47:18] because people are just like

[00:47:20] they don't use that face cream

[00:47:21] you know

[00:47:22] if it says sponsored by

[00:47:24] they

[00:47:25] you should probably pay attention

[00:47:26] because they're probably not

[00:47:27] actually using it

[00:47:29] exactly

[00:47:30] Joel

[00:47:30] we could talk to you forever brother

[00:47:32] thank you so much for carving that time

[00:47:33] out of your busy schedule

[00:47:35] yeah I was there

[00:47:36] coming on the podcast

[00:47:36] this has been great

[00:47:37] yeah thanks for having me

[00:47:38] and hopefully we'll do it again

[00:47:41] 100%

[00:47:41] we will

[00:47:42] next time someone videotapes their layoff

[00:47:44] we'll

[00:47:44] we'll do a session