Do Companies Care? The Role of a Chief People Officer with Tara Fournier, Chief People Officer at Enthusiast Gaming

[00:00:00] A lot of companies struggle on caring.

[00:00:04] So you had said, this is my silly thing.

[00:00:06] Hey, this is the title of the show.

[00:00:08] This is the title of the show.

[00:00:10] Companies struggle with caring.

[00:00:12] I'm so happy to be here from Boston.

[00:00:15] Yeah, I was kind of hesitant.

[00:00:18] Okay, so you said they care about, and yes, I remember, and they do.

[00:00:26] Hey, this is William Tidcup, Ryan Leary.

[00:00:28] You are listening and watching the Practitioners Corner.

[00:00:31] Hey, Ryan. How you doing? It's all white.

[00:00:33] I was giving you the spirit fingers.

[00:00:36] As long as it's not the super finger.

[00:00:38] Great. Tara, how are you doing today?

[00:00:41] I'm awesome. How are you guys today?

[00:00:43] Amazing.

[00:00:45] It's a good day. It's bright outside, all is well.

[00:00:49] Would you do us a favor and introduce yourself to the audience?

[00:00:52] Yeah, sure. So for those of you listening,

[00:00:54] my name is Tara Fornier.

[00:00:56] I am a Chief People Officer, and I'm super excited to be here.

[00:01:00] I've worked with Will for a long time, so it's good to finally be invited.

[00:01:06] 100%. Chief People Officer versus CHRO.

[00:01:10] Are they synonyms?

[00:01:12] I think it's a tomato-tomato in some regards, right?

[00:01:15] I mean, HR, people in culture, talent, it all really is the same thing.

[00:01:21] We're responsible for keeping people safe and keeping the company safe at the same time,

[00:01:26] so I think it's preference.

[00:01:28] Pretty much the previous...

[00:01:30] Because there was a period where we went through human capital,

[00:01:33] and everyone kind of like, okay, what is human capital?

[00:01:36] And then out of the Bay Area, I noticed probably a decade or so,

[00:01:41] that there was a lot of people ops, people that maybe didn't have HR experience

[00:01:46] that kind of came over and did people operations or people ops.

[00:01:50] But I've always wondered for folks that have the title,

[00:01:54] that have gotten to that place at the most senior level,

[00:01:58] is there a difference or is it basically seen as the same thing?

[00:02:01] I think it's seen as the same thing.

[00:02:03] I think in tech, the term people, officer, people in culture,

[00:02:07] officer is seen more.

[00:02:09] Aboriginal, brick and mortar businesses,

[00:02:12] maybe, or manufacturing things are more chief HR, officer just legacy.

[00:02:16] So depends.

[00:02:18] I think in the federal government, they might still call it personnel.

[00:02:21] 100%.

[00:02:23] Yeah, 100%.

[00:02:25] We were just talking with someone and they said personnel.

[00:02:27] And I was like, I feel dirty.

[00:02:29] It just...

[00:02:30] Like human capital management, same thing.

[00:02:33] Human capital management always bothered me.

[00:02:36] I just felt like it was a weird way to say it.

[00:02:39] But Tara, I've got a question.

[00:02:41] Tell me if I'm looking at this wrong,

[00:02:43] and I think I am based on how you described it.

[00:02:47] Chief people officer, I've always looked at them as managing the

[00:02:52] people, the culture, right?

[00:02:54] The engagement of the company.

[00:02:56] All of that whereas HR was more process and ops.

[00:02:59] I mean, I think it's like tomato to me in the roles that I play

[00:03:03] as a chief people officer.

[00:03:04] I oversee the whole...

[00:03:06] So we have an HR operations team.

[00:03:10] That's kind of the beef.

[00:03:12] Right?

[00:03:13] So if you have an umbrella title and then it's got all the

[00:03:15] different nuance underneath it.

[00:03:17] I'm going to go with what you're saying.

[00:03:19] You're probably more right than me.

[00:03:21] Oh, 100%.

[00:03:22] If I'm not right, people will let us know.

[00:03:24] I'm sure.

[00:03:25] Yes.

[00:03:26] Have you seen this bit where people get

[00:03:29] wiggled out about the word resources?

[00:03:32] That humans aren't resources.

[00:03:34] I've had this conversation with people that are like

[00:03:38] human resources.

[00:03:39] They're not resources.

[00:03:40] We're not trees.

[00:03:41] We're not cotton.

[00:03:42] We're not this, that and the others.

[00:03:43] But we're not...

[00:03:44] We cut too far.

[00:03:46] Not a natural resource.

[00:03:47] I mean, you can make an argument there.

[00:03:49] I'm sorry.

[00:03:50] Make your point.

[00:03:51] I'm sorry.

[00:03:52] I found that argument fascinating because I'm like,

[00:03:56] I'm with both of you.

[00:03:58] Like, well, you are a resource and you're going to be

[00:04:01] deployed as a resource and there's going to be a return

[00:04:04] on that investment as a resource.

[00:04:06] So unless you can come up with a better word,

[00:04:08] that's not resource.

[00:04:10] Yeah.

[00:04:11] You're not cotton and you're not tree.

[00:04:13] Maybe.

[00:04:14] Yeah.

[00:04:15] Human asset.

[00:04:16] No, I don't like human capital either.

[00:04:18] I don't like human capital.

[00:04:19] I feel dirty.

[00:04:20] It feels...

[00:04:21] That's going to be the title.

[00:04:22] Human capital dirty.

[00:04:23] I feel dirty.

[00:04:24] I want to take a shower.

[00:04:25] So what's your current gig?

[00:04:27] What are you doing now?

[00:04:29] So my current gig is open to adventure.

[00:04:32] I have recently just finished my work as a chief

[00:04:35] people officer for enthusiast gaming,

[00:04:38] which is a really interesting...

[00:04:39] We were talking earlier about the gaming industry.

[00:04:42] Very interesting space to be in where the intersection

[00:04:45] of pop culture and all these different sports

[00:04:48] and e-sports and all things kind of come together.

[00:04:51] So I was there just until the last couple of weeks

[00:04:55] and now I'm onto my next adventure.

[00:04:58] I've got some consulting work that I'm starting

[00:05:00] myself, so I'm very excited about the launch of that.

[00:05:04] But yeah, it's been an interesting journey.

[00:05:07] My current role and the last few roles have really

[00:05:10] been about change and helping organizations through

[00:05:14] some period of change.

[00:05:16] And I think change is hard for people.

[00:05:19] And as a chief people officer, you have to help

[00:05:21] get people through that kind of change to be

[00:05:24] a resource and an asset to the company to get

[00:05:27] that return on investment.

[00:05:28] So it's an interesting adventure that I've been

[00:05:31] through and yeah, gaming industry is very,

[00:05:34] very special right now.

[00:05:36] What type of change are we talking about?

[00:05:39] Digital transformation?

[00:05:40] Are we doing with like a change in kind of

[00:05:43] AI and the intersection of it taking over

[00:05:46] some of the lower value tasks?

[00:05:48] Like what type of change projects do you see?

[00:05:51] There's that, but I'm talking about actual

[00:05:53] organizational change.

[00:05:54] So the company that I just came from

[00:05:57] from enthusiast gaming was a conglomeration

[00:06:00] of multiple acquisitions.

[00:06:02] So this is culturally, you know, company A

[00:06:05] buys company B and now we have to come out

[00:06:08] of it as company C.

[00:06:09] And so, you know, getting all of your processes

[00:06:12] harmonized, getting your people and your culture

[00:06:15] and people to get to know one another,

[00:06:17] designing the organization after, you know,

[00:06:19] change has happened and then helping people

[00:06:21] through, you know, through it.

[00:06:24] So that I mean in this, in this regard,

[00:06:27] my company was publicly traded.

[00:06:28] So there's this publicly traded piece as well.

[00:06:31] So I've gone through lots of different change

[00:06:33] through my history.

[00:06:35] You know, prior to that, I was at an organization

[00:06:37] where we were acquired.

[00:06:39] We not be a choir, but we were the acquired

[00:06:41] going through that.

[00:06:42] Prior to that, I took my company through an IPO.

[00:06:45] So I've been through lots of different levels

[00:06:47] of change and trying to get these human resources

[00:06:50] comfortable in their new environments or helping

[00:06:53] them move along if they're not part

[00:06:55] of the new future.

[00:06:57] So, Tara.

[00:06:59] So today we're talking about you.

[00:07:03] Surprise.

[00:07:04] We're going to learn all about your journey

[00:07:06] and all that good stuff.

[00:07:07] Yeah.

[00:07:08] Therapy session.

[00:07:09] Therapy session is correct.

[00:07:11] We're going to help you out.

[00:07:12] That is correct.

[00:07:13] We're going to get you through your trouble times.

[00:07:14] But before we do, before we do,

[00:07:16] what's keeping you up at night right now?

[00:07:18] What are you thinking about as you transition

[00:07:22] from a chief people officer into your own

[00:07:25] work as a consultant?

[00:07:28] What's top of mind for you?

[00:07:31] I think top of mind for me,

[00:07:33] what's keeping me up at night is what's

[00:07:35] keeping the employees up at night.

[00:07:37] I think employee retention is a huge issue.

[00:07:39] Right now I know that there's a lot of talk

[00:07:41] about layoffs in certain industries and things

[00:07:43] of that nature.

[00:07:44] But the retention piece has been really

[00:07:46] eating at me quite a bit.

[00:07:48] It keeps me up for a multitude of reasons.

[00:07:51] Like for me, there's a lot of choices out

[00:07:53] there now.

[00:07:54] And companies have lots of flexibility,

[00:07:56] and other companies don't have much flexibility.

[00:07:59] How do you keep your employees happy

[00:08:01] and productive while at the same time

[00:08:03] balancing, making sure that you are the best

[00:08:06] place to work so that they want to come

[00:08:08] and stay here?

[00:08:09] So it's a huge...

[00:08:10] That is keeping me up at night.

[00:08:12] All right.

[00:08:13] So I wanted to ask a question about change,

[00:08:16] but I think it's related to retention.

[00:08:19] It's in a remote world or in a highly

[00:08:22] flexible world.

[00:08:24] How do we solve the algebra of retention?

[00:08:28] Or how do we solve the algebra of change?

[00:08:31] Like you just explained, okay, company A,

[00:08:33] company B, they come together for company C.

[00:08:36] Great.

[00:08:37] When that was bricks and mortar and fully

[00:08:40] bricks and mortar, you close down office,

[00:08:43] you increase office, everyone's in the same spot.

[00:08:47] Okay.

[00:08:48] I could see that easier from a

[00:08:51] change perspective that everyone's in the same box

[00:08:54] because you could communicate, you get in front of

[00:08:56] people, you have town halls, you can do all this stuff.

[00:08:59] You're seeing everybody every day.

[00:09:01] But now as you're thinking about retention,

[00:09:03] and it's said at the top of mind, again,

[00:09:06] in a remote environment or even a highly flexible

[00:09:09] environment like my niece works for Deloitte, New York,

[00:09:12] she doesn't have to go in.

[00:09:14] Right.

[00:09:15] Occasionally her boss will say, hey,

[00:09:17] some people are coming by today.

[00:09:18] Why don't you go in?

[00:09:19] But other than that, it's totally up to her whether or not

[00:09:22] she ever leaves her apartment.

[00:09:24] And so like how do we retain that person?

[00:09:28] You know, like what?

[00:09:30] Programmatically and otherwise, go ahead.

[00:09:32] I'm sorry.

[00:09:33] Yeah, it's not easy.

[00:09:34] If I had the answer, I would be like a super billionaire

[00:09:36] right now.

[00:09:37] But you know, working on it.

[00:09:39] So what I think is it in a post,

[00:09:43] you know, pandemic world, we've got it.

[00:09:45] People are exhausted on zoom.

[00:09:46] So it's to say, oh, just throw a zoom meeting and have

[00:09:49] everybody meet each other and all that.

[00:09:51] It doesn't, it's not the same at all.

[00:09:54] I think what I've found is just having information

[00:09:58] for people ready to go, you know, using the internal

[00:10:02] social media channels really helpful and then having

[00:10:06] the employees form their interest groups.

[00:10:09] So one of the things that I've seen in the last two,

[00:10:11] three organizations I've been in is these employees are like,

[00:10:14] hey, listen, I really like cats.

[00:10:16] I love them.

[00:10:17] They're awesome.

[00:10:18] I want to start a group about cats and so they'll start

[00:10:21] a group about cats and then their next thing you know,

[00:10:23] there's 30 people that are like, yeah, cats are awesome.

[00:10:25] I'm going to join the cat group.

[00:10:27] And then that's how they meet each other is so you have

[00:10:29] to find and create space for people to have their,

[00:10:33] you know, not just the work but other things,

[00:10:36] but it's difficult when you push it down from the

[00:10:39] organization like we're having a town hall.

[00:10:42] We're all going to do the town hall and that's fantastic.

[00:10:45] You're going to learn about the company and there's nothing

[00:10:47] wrong with that town hallers out there.

[00:10:49] It's good information is always a good thing,

[00:10:51] but you have to have a place for people to have like it's

[00:10:53] basically a break room for people to go to and speak.

[00:10:58] And you know companies that can afford to get their

[00:11:01] organizations together in person.

[00:11:03] You know if you have your annual meeting or things

[00:11:05] like that are great but we found you know post pandemic

[00:11:09] people are sprinkled all over the country,

[00:11:11] all over the world.

[00:11:12] And so it's just yeah, it's not easy but to me the more

[00:11:16] communication and the more platforms for people to

[00:11:19] organically you know find each other in non-work seems

[00:11:23] to be helpful.

[00:11:25] What are you guys finding?

[00:11:27] Are you finding this community that you're talking to?

[00:11:30] Yeah, I think the special interest groups and ERGs,

[00:11:36] they play a wonderful role.

[00:11:38] We did a podcast, this is with Cineos Health and it was

[00:11:46] interesting about this podcast is it was an ERG.

[00:11:49] The entire ERG that came on the podcast and we were

[00:11:54] talking about folks with disabilities,

[00:11:58] folks that we wanted to actually recruit and retain

[00:12:03] and employees within that group of people that wanted

[00:12:08] to just kind of educate.

[00:12:10] And it was fascinating because there was a lot of like

[00:12:13] belonging stuff that kind of came about that too.

[00:12:16] Not just the we have things that are in common,

[00:12:19] you had advocates at the executive level that were

[00:12:22] basically saying this is important to us and we

[00:12:25] don't know much about it so we're going to bring

[00:12:27] in some experts or bring in some employees but we

[00:12:30] want to learn more about it so that we can also

[00:12:32] educate the greater company.

[00:12:34] And like that was fantastic.

[00:12:38] So I think special interest for ERGs,

[00:12:41] I love the cafeteria reference.

[00:12:43] I think that's a really wonderful way of thinking

[00:12:45] about the water cooler, the cafeteria or even the

[00:12:49] after work stuff that used to happen going to bars,

[00:12:52] going to baseball games and stuff like that.

[00:12:54] Any type of bonding and connecting that one can

[00:12:57] that we can facilitate.

[00:12:59] Did you have something to add?

[00:13:01] Yeah, I feel like a lot of companies struggle

[00:13:06] on caring.

[00:13:08] So you had said this is a title of the show.

[00:13:11] This is a title of the show.

[00:13:13] Companies struggle with caring.

[00:13:16] I'm so happy to be here from the top.

[00:13:19] Yeah, I was kind of hesitant.

[00:13:21] So you said they care about and yes,

[00:13:28] they do and I remember and they do.

[00:13:30] Cineos right so they do and I find without.

[00:13:36] So I'm struggling with this because I look at it

[00:13:38] from two different sides.

[00:13:39] One is we talk to a lot of founders of companies

[00:13:42] that are midsize, you know, 500 to 1000 people

[00:13:46] plus right they've done a really good job.

[00:13:48] When you talk to those people.

[00:13:51] They're very, very good at sharing what they care about

[00:13:56] their mission and if you're not careful in the conversation

[00:14:02] and you just kind of open your stuff,

[00:14:04] you like yeah, I'm with you here man.

[00:14:07] I get this.

[00:14:09] Yeah, but as an employee.

[00:14:13] You don't always get that feeling because you don't

[00:14:16] have the connection with the founder and I'll use myself.

[00:14:19] We released a sterling we were talking with her

[00:14:21] and we both came from Kinect.

[00:14:24] So and I had that connection with Kinect.

[00:14:28] So where is it?

[00:14:29] Right? Yeah, no, I'm bought in like this is a cult.

[00:14:31] I'm in like I get it like that's kind of what I felt like.

[00:14:34] But employees 100 employees after me probably didn't have

[00:14:38] that same experience because they never got to meet

[00:14:41] the founders.

[00:14:42] They never got to see the office when it was just

[00:14:45] folding tables in the manager's offices right in

[00:14:48] leaders offices.

[00:14:49] They were literally fault when I interviewed it was

[00:14:52] literally a folding table with the computer and

[00:14:55] an Ethernet cable.

[00:14:56] That was it.

[00:14:57] And I was like, what the hell am I getting into here?

[00:15:00] But at that point that's like it connected like I

[00:15:03] connected with that.

[00:15:05] Not everyone gets that and I knew what they cared about.

[00:15:08] So I struggle with that because we you know a lot

[00:15:12] of these companies say we care about diversity or

[00:15:14] we care about inclusion or we care about ADA or

[00:15:17] we care about this.

[00:15:18] Right?

[00:15:19] But who cares?

[00:15:20] Is it the founders of the company down or is it the HR

[00:15:25] person or engagement person saying we're going to go

[00:15:28] get a list of things that we care about.

[00:15:30] I want to hear his answer.

[00:15:32] Best place to work.

[00:15:33] I want Tara's answer.

[00:15:35] But you're going to give an answer.

[00:15:36] No, no, no, no, I want hers first.

[00:15:38] I don't want to.

[00:15:40] I don't want to.

[00:15:41] Yeah, but I do.

[00:15:42] I know I talked a lot, but I do struggle with

[00:15:45] that and I struggle with believing that.

[00:15:48] But I have been in a couple of companies, one very,

[00:15:51] very large with Enterprise Renacard long this is

[00:15:55] 2000 like very, very large.

[00:15:58] But same idea.

[00:15:59] I fell into that and I believe the people connect.

[00:16:03] So I will everything everywhere else I've been.

[00:16:05] Hmm.

[00:16:06] Not so much.

[00:16:07] Not so much.

[00:16:08] Not so much.

[00:16:09] So what do you got?

[00:16:10] What are you thinking through what you're saying

[00:16:12] and thinking through kind of where I've where I've worked.

[00:16:14] And you know, one of the places that did a really great job

[00:16:17] that I worked at was Zillow.

[00:16:19] Yeah, you know, and the founders were on the board.

[00:16:22] One of the founders was the CEO and every place is very wrong

[00:16:26] on my house by the way.

[00:16:28] They're very below market.

[00:16:30] Let them know.

[00:16:31] I will let my friends and yeah, they did really,

[00:16:34] really well is every single month they had a session with

[00:16:39] the CEO and he would do a Q and A with anyone that was brand new.

[00:16:44] And then every month we would have, you know,

[00:16:46] a town hall meeting and we would learn what is the play?

[00:16:49] What are we doing this month?

[00:16:50] What are we trying to accomplish this month?

[00:16:52] He would give out his phone number at the beginning of every session.

[00:16:55] We were 1000 employees.

[00:16:56] He's like, here's my phone number.

[00:16:58] If you have a question for me and he would answer every text

[00:17:01] and every phone call and every email that came through.

[00:17:04] And so even though that had scaled,

[00:17:06] I think he was probably his name was Spencer Raskoff.

[00:17:09] Hi, Spencer.

[00:17:10] Shout out to you.

[00:17:11] He did a fantastic job and everybody knew what was going on.

[00:17:14] Everybody cared.

[00:17:15] It made the HR job very easy because we had that support.

[00:17:19] I've worked at other companies where we've had founder led,

[00:17:22] you know, CEOs and, and I think you're right.

[00:17:25] I think when you're in the top echelon of the organization,

[00:17:27] you're hearing this person day in and day out in your echelons

[00:17:30] because you really need that trickle down through the layers

[00:17:33] of leadership.

[00:17:34] One of the things that we did recently and enthusiast gaming

[00:17:37] and then prior to I had the same CEO of both organizations

[00:17:41] is we started a senior leadership team and they would come together

[00:17:44] every month.

[00:17:45] And so we would start to have them engaged in the culture

[00:17:47] in the, what do we stand for?

[00:17:49] What is our mission?

[00:17:50] What is our vision?

[00:17:51] And then we started to embrace that put our core values

[00:17:53] together and really use them towards, you know,

[00:17:56] when we had one-on-ones with employees and performance

[00:17:59] management conversations, it's, are you doing this value?

[00:18:01] How, what are we doing?

[00:18:02] Why are we here?

[00:18:03] And that was, that's been very helpful for me.

[00:18:06] But if you don't have that and you don't have that support

[00:18:08] and that trickle down, I think you're right, Ryan.

[00:18:10] It's just words.

[00:18:12] Yeah.

[00:18:13] So, Ryan, let me just, I'll draw you a little picture

[00:18:16] because I know you like, I know you're a visual learner.

[00:18:18] Caring, three-legged stool.

[00:18:20] We're going dark.

[00:18:21] No, no, no.

[00:18:23] I would never do that to you.

[00:18:24] No.

[00:18:25] Three-legged stool.

[00:18:26] Okay.

[00:18:27] Three-legged stool just envisioned.

[00:18:29] Right?

[00:18:30] Communication.

[00:18:31] Can I spread the legs out so I can sit evenly?

[00:18:34] 100%.

[00:18:35] All right.

[00:18:36] So, communication, access and budget.

[00:18:39] That's how you create caring.

[00:18:41] That's how you validate.

[00:18:43] If someone says they care, you can ask three probative

[00:18:46] questions.

[00:18:47] Okay.

[00:18:48] You say you care about diversity.

[00:18:49] Great.

[00:18:50] What's the budget that you put behind it?

[00:18:52] What's the communication strategy that you put

[00:18:55] behind it?

[00:18:56] And what's the access to the executives and the board

[00:19:00] that we have that can validate it?

[00:19:03] That's it.

[00:19:04] I mean, it really is that simple of algebra.

[00:19:06] If you're trying to solve for an visual learner,

[00:19:09] I'm doing John Nash and Beautiful Mind at this point.

[00:19:12] But the whole idea is if you're solving the algebra

[00:19:14] for caring, you just ask those three probative

[00:19:17] questions and you'll either get that they care or you'll

[00:19:21] find that no, those are just words.

[00:19:23] Really interesting.

[00:19:24] Very nice.

[00:19:25] That thanks for joining us today.

[00:19:26] Stop it.

[00:19:27] Stop it.

[00:19:28] All right.

[00:19:29] We got to go back because I love going back to high school

[00:19:31] and college.

[00:19:32] What do you want to be?

[00:19:34] What do you want to be when you grew up?

[00:19:36] And I'm very glad if you say chief people officer,

[00:19:38] I'm going to come through this.

[00:19:40] Yes.

[00:19:41] No, not come through the screen.

[00:19:42] So my HRO, but they pushed her over to the people.

[00:19:45] I'm telling you, no, I wanted to be a journalist

[00:19:49] actually.

[00:19:50] I wanted to be a little journalist.

[00:19:52] I wanted to be in the White House press court

[00:19:54] and thank God I didn't do that.

[00:19:56] That's pretty horrible.

[00:19:59] Yeah, yeah.

[00:20:01] Those people get treated like shit.

[00:20:04] In the West Wing, in the TV show,

[00:20:06] the West Wing, oh my, yes, it's,

[00:20:10] I just watched, we watched House of Cards

[00:20:13] and that was those dark, but the press

[00:20:17] court got treated a certain way.

[00:20:19] And then the West Wing TV show,

[00:20:20] the West Wing press court got treated a certain

[00:20:22] way, but there was a little bit more respect

[00:20:24] in that TV show as opposed to House of Cards.

[00:20:27] But I don't, I think, I think you're both right.

[00:20:30] I think right now that's not a job,

[00:20:32] but I would really wish to have.

[00:20:34] No.

[00:20:35] At all.

[00:20:36] No.

[00:20:37] So that was, did you go to school for journalism?

[00:20:39] I did.

[00:20:40] I started out as a journalism major.

[00:20:43] I went to Cal State Fullerton.

[00:20:45] I had a, I have to tell you the story

[00:20:47] of how I didn't become a journalist.

[00:20:49] I sat in a class and this was a,

[00:20:51] the professor was adjunct and he was a

[00:20:53] teacher for the Orange County Register,

[00:20:55] which is a local paper here.

[00:20:57] Yeah, of course.

[00:20:58] He says, he sits down and goes, I'm professor

[00:21:00] and I don't remember his name anymore because

[00:21:02] he was that memorable.

[00:21:03] And this is going to be the semester where

[00:21:05] you learn about journalism, journalism.

[00:21:07] You're going to make $25,000 a year.

[00:21:10] You're not going to work, you're going to

[00:21:12] work nights, weekends, holidays.

[00:21:14] You'll never see your family and you'll

[00:21:16] be writing about shit you don't care about.

[00:21:18] Welcome to the class.

[00:21:19] And I was like, what?

[00:21:20] I'm going to tell you what.

[00:21:22] I didn't think this.

[00:21:23] You need to find that guy's name.

[00:21:25] I want to interview him.

[00:21:27] Well, you know what?

[00:21:28] He was right.

[00:21:30] He was, he was right.

[00:21:31] He was doing service, right?

[00:21:33] He was doing everybody a disservice.

[00:21:35] I mean, he was doing everybody a service

[00:21:37] because he's telling the truth.

[00:21:39] Whereas if you talk to other people in

[00:21:41] journalism that have, you're going to

[00:21:43] Pulitzer and whatnot, they won't

[00:21:45] tell you that stuff.

[00:21:46] That's true.

[00:21:47] Right.

[00:21:48] I was coming in with the truth and the

[00:21:50] truth got you redirected.

[00:21:52] I would assume to comms.

[00:21:54] Yep.

[00:21:55] So I ended up being a public relations

[00:21:57] major.

[00:21:58] Yes.

[00:21:59] During college, I worked at Disney.

[00:22:01] By the way, Ryan, that's where all

[00:22:03] failed journalists go.

[00:22:05] You know, I just guessed that by the

[00:22:07] way.

[00:22:08] That's how that works.

[00:22:10] I had no previous knowledge.

[00:22:12] Could you be a failed journalist if

[00:22:14] you weren't a journalist at all to

[00:22:16] begin with though?

[00:22:17] That's correct.

[00:22:18] I worked at Disney during college

[00:22:20] because I went to Cal State,

[00:22:22] which is also known as Cal State Disneyland

[00:22:24] for the locals.

[00:22:25] Oh yeah.

[00:22:26] Disney tour guide.

[00:22:27] So that got the PR thing kind of moving.

[00:22:29] They don't call employees employees.

[00:22:31] You are a cast member.

[00:22:33] You are a cast member.

[00:22:35] How does that impact your view of HR?

[00:22:38] What was interesting, right?

[00:22:40] Because this was, I was a tour guide

[00:22:42] and when you're a tour guide, you're

[00:22:44] also the guest relations, which

[00:22:46] basically is similar to employee

[00:22:48] relations because you have people that

[00:22:50] are coming in and they've got certain

[00:22:52] things they need to tell you and some

[00:22:54] things are great.

[00:22:55] They want to tell you what's great, but

[00:22:57] most of the time, you know, there's

[00:22:59] something else.

[00:23:00] And of course as cast members, we're

[00:23:02] performing a role and so we have

[00:23:04] to act like we loved everything that

[00:23:06] we were hearing.

[00:23:07] We should have a whole other podcast

[00:23:09] with the secrets of it.

[00:23:11] I'm in.

[00:23:12] 100%.

[00:23:13] Yeah.

[00:23:14] It was great.

[00:23:15] I mean, it was really, it was helpful

[00:23:17] as I was a PR major because it gave me

[00:23:19] some of that and I ended up interning

[00:23:21] in two places.

[00:23:22] One was the Richard Nixon

[00:23:24] library and birthplace.

[00:23:25] That was my presidential, got my

[00:23:27] presidential fix.

[00:23:28] I've been there.

[00:23:29] I've been there.

[00:23:30] I was originally the last couple

[00:23:32] years.

[00:23:33] It's fantastic.

[00:23:34] PR internship there and then I did

[00:23:36] an internal comms internship at

[00:23:38] a company called Maricow and I

[00:23:40] was working with the HR department.

[00:23:42] I was working with the HR department

[00:23:44] and they were the first kind of HR

[00:23:46] came into play just a little bit.

[00:23:48] So that's where I started to see

[00:23:50] the dark side just a tiny bit.

[00:23:52] I was about to say did you fall in

[00:23:54] love with HR?

[00:23:55] I didn't.

[00:23:56] No.

[00:23:57] And not then.

[00:23:58] No, I didn't.

[00:23:59] I feel like we're getting the

[00:24:01] little point up.

[00:24:02] I needed a job.

[00:24:03] I so love this.

[00:24:04] I so love this.

[00:24:05] So what was it?

[00:24:06] What was after that?

[00:24:08] What?

[00:24:09] I ended up for the first three

[00:24:11] years of my career in the

[00:24:13] public relations and marketing.

[00:24:15] So I was working with a

[00:24:17] boutique marketing firm and we were

[00:24:19] doing grand openings for Panda

[00:24:21] Express and Wiener Schnitzel and

[00:24:23] Marie calendars and all sorts of

[00:24:25] restaurant clients.

[00:24:26] It was super fun.

[00:24:27] And then the fun and joy kind

[00:24:29] of ended during there was a

[00:24:31] recessionary period after 911.

[00:24:33] I figured that the Panda

[00:24:35] Express was opening its 400th

[00:24:37] restaurant anymore because things

[00:24:39] were going to be so bad.

[00:24:40] And then I was like,

[00:24:42] I'm going to be a big

[00:24:43] salesman.

[00:24:44] I was like,

[00:24:45] I'm going to be a big salesman.

[00:24:47] So I went to my local

[00:24:49] recruiting firm and said,

[00:24:51] hey, I'm looking for a job.

[00:24:53] And they're like, how about being

[00:24:55] a recruiter?

[00:24:56] You can come work for us.

[00:24:57] And that's how I came.

[00:24:58] I truly did fall into HR

[00:25:00] and having a little bit of

[00:25:02] background.

[00:25:03] That's how it started for me.

[00:25:05] So that's my career journey

[00:25:07] in the whole business.

[00:25:08] And I have a lot of

[00:25:09] knowledge about the full cycle

[00:25:11] desk where you had to go out

[00:25:13] and do your business.

[00:25:14] Find your people and go fill it.

[00:25:16] The most inefficient process in

[00:25:17] the world.

[00:25:18] But it works.

[00:25:19] So hustle game.

[00:25:20] We had Amy Miller on

[00:25:22] yesterday.

[00:25:24] And we were just talking

[00:25:26] on Mike because I think Ryan

[00:25:28] and I have a theory that staffing

[00:25:30] people that have a staffing

[00:25:32] background as recruiters

[00:25:34] make better corporate

[00:25:36] And Amy corrected us and said, well, maybe, maybe not, but it's the hustle game.

[00:25:43] Can they actually hustle and get the job done?

[00:25:47] But they're weak on the politics.

[00:25:50] They're weaker on the politics.

[00:25:53] Yeah.

[00:25:54] That's interesting.

[00:25:55] So yeah, she said, so as a staffing, she was a big builder or all that type of stuff.

[00:25:59] And she said, what I had to learn my first couple of years on the corporate side is the political game that gets played.

[00:26:05] Oh, that's right.

[00:26:06] You don't get that inside there.

[00:26:08] You'll get that bit.

[00:26:09] You just got place.

[00:26:10] Okay.

[00:26:11] Okay.

[00:26:12] You need a body.

[00:26:13] Okay.

[00:26:14] Done.

[00:26:15] And she was really great at that.

[00:26:17] But it's always kind of modified my thinking about staffing that they can make better corporate recruiters, but they're going to have to learn the politics pretty fast.

[00:26:27] Yep.

[00:26:28] Well, that was my next step after that.

[00:26:30] So you're like walking me through my this is very therapeutic by the way.

[00:26:34] It's not done yet.

[00:26:35] So, yeah, so after that, right?

[00:26:38] So I was working at the staffing agency and my old internship, Mary cow, which I told you about from the beginning where I was like, not interested.

[00:26:45] Calls me the director of HR and says.

[00:26:48] I see you're doing recruiting now.

[00:26:50] How about you come over and start recruiting for us?

[00:26:53] Bringing our stuff in house.

[00:26:55] And so.

[00:26:56] Thought about it thought about the hustle and I was like, yeah, I think.

[00:27:00] I think I can, I think I can have a standard salary every 2 weeks.

[00:27:04] I think yeah.

[00:27:05] Yeah.

[00:27:06] Health benefits.

[00:27:07] You bet.

[00:27:08] Sure.

[00:27:09] So, so I joined over there and they this is the beginning of all the change management.

[00:27:12] They had just done an acquisition.

[00:27:14] And so they brought me in.

[00:27:15] They were going to start they were moving their recruiting recruiting was on stone and tablet and chisel.

[00:27:21] 100%.

[00:27:22] No cards.

[00:27:23] Maybe a graphic paper.

[00:27:25] Old days.

[00:27:26] Right.

[00:27:27] Yeah.

[00:27:28] Old days.

[00:27:29] They were still processing on word perfect.

[00:27:31] Oh yeah.

[00:27:32] Oh yeah.

[00:27:33] Got matrix printer the whole bit.

[00:27:35] There was 1 of those in there.

[00:27:37] All the little like the paper with it.

[00:27:39] And it's like green and white paper, right?

[00:27:41] Yeah.

[00:27:42] Yeah.

[00:27:43] With the diet.

[00:27:44] Oh my God.

[00:27:45] I'm aging myself.

[00:27:46] No, no, no, we're good.

[00:27:48] You're gonna start.

[00:27:49] You're gonna start.

[00:27:50] Thank you.

[00:27:51] I wasn't born until after fax machines and no one's listening to that.

[00:27:57] No one's listening to that.

[00:27:59] So, so you brought all did all the recruiters come on to you.

[00:28:03] They didn't have any recruiters there.

[00:28:06] So they were using staffing firms only.

[00:28:08] And so that was a cost savings thing.

[00:28:10] They were bringing in right.

[00:28:11] Right.

[00:28:12] In house.

[00:28:13] How about the cost savings?

[00:28:15] They were bringing in a little sideways when I got there because

[00:28:19] they didn't do them.

[00:28:20] This is like a dirty word, but it's due diligence.

[00:28:23] They didn't do their due diligence with the.

[00:28:25] With the merger and the acquisition.

[00:28:27] And so there were some issues that arose from that such as they

[00:28:31] didn't realize that they had people with.

[00:28:33] I nine.

[00:28:34] I nine that one.

[00:28:35] Oh yeah.

[00:28:36] Oh yeah.

[00:28:37] I had 37 open requisitions.

[00:28:39] I had 37 open requisitions.

[00:28:41] I had 37 open requisitions.

[00:28:42] I had 37 open requisitions.

[00:28:44] Oh wow.

[00:28:46] That needed to be filled and.

[00:28:48] Recording.

[00:28:50] Yeah.

[00:28:51] Yeah.

[00:28:52] Yeah.

[00:28:53] Security knocking on my door.

[00:28:54] Doing an investigation.

[00:28:56] So, so I learned how to be an HR generalist real quick and

[00:28:59] needed to get a real fast education.

[00:29:01] Yeah.

[00:29:02] I mean, I have to say when you don't know what to do and

[00:29:06] being new in HR, I didn't know where to go.

[00:29:09] And so this director of HR, I think she might have been a VP

[00:29:12] by that time.

[00:29:13] She's like, you've got to learn.

[00:29:15] You've got to do everything you can start join.

[00:29:17] There's this organization.

[00:29:18] It's called shirm.

[00:29:19] Go join it.

[00:29:20] There's local groups go join it.

[00:29:22] Go just learn go take classes ever.

[00:29:25] That's that was the big like change for me.

[00:29:29] So you were active in Pyro.

[00:29:31] Weren't you?

[00:29:32] I am the current president of Pyro.

[00:29:34] Yes.

[00:29:35] I thought I thought I went on to look at it.

[00:29:38] I went out and spoke at it a couple of times.

[00:29:40] I loved it.

[00:29:41] But it's a huge, I mean, it's a very large group.

[00:29:44] People don't understand how big that group is.

[00:29:47] That's a really good, great.

[00:29:49] Congratulations on being president by the way.

[00:29:51] Not easy.

[00:29:52] Not not easy because it's run when you run.

[00:29:56] First of all, it's a nonprofit, right?

[00:29:58] So there's that but it's the hurting of volunteers of

[00:30:04] towards an end goal because you have an annual conference,

[00:30:07] and you also got things that are going on through the year.

[00:30:10] And the hurting towards that annual conference is it's a heavy lift.

[00:30:15] I mean, they had, I think y'all had the Anaheim conference center

[00:30:19] when I went to it.

[00:30:21] That's what we're getting ready again.

[00:30:23] It's going to be a May 20th to the 22nd.

[00:30:25] And we're in the same.

[00:30:27] That's not a small venue.

[00:30:29] That is a large venue by the way.

[00:30:31] There's a large venue.

[00:30:33] How many people are coming to this event?

[00:30:36] I think we have about 200 people.

[00:30:38] We have about 200 people.

[00:30:40] We have about 200 people.

[00:30:42] And usually we get between one and 2000 people just depending on

[00:30:45] pandemic.

[00:30:46] We've been doing it hybrid so people can join virtually too.

[00:30:49] So in person, roughly a thousand.

[00:30:51] I think I maybe more.

[00:30:53] I'm sure our executive director and our CEO is looking at me

[00:30:56] going to Tara.

[00:30:57] I'm sure it's like 2,500.

[00:30:59] 100% Tara.

[00:31:00] We had 400 people last year.

[00:31:02] I think that's a lot of people.

[00:31:04] So I'm sure we'll get to that.

[00:31:06] Yeah.

[00:31:07] That's just not easy.

[00:31:10] I mean, after COVID, most people are like,

[00:31:12] travel. Why would I travel?

[00:31:14] I give my continuing education credits on webinars or whatever

[00:31:18] else.

[00:31:19] Like while go.

[00:31:20] But it's that networking.

[00:31:22] That happens at those events inside the sessions,

[00:31:24] but also outside the sessions that it's like,

[00:31:26] you can meet.

[00:31:27] You can meet your next employer.

[00:31:29] That happened to me.

[00:31:31] I was an employee of.

[00:31:33] Of shirm and that was through.

[00:31:35] Attending the government affairs,

[00:31:37] the legislative advocacy conference here in California and I met.

[00:31:40] A few folks like Mike 8,

[00:31:42] Ken and some of the other people out at and Pam green back in

[00:31:45] the day.

[00:31:46] Oh, I love them green.

[00:31:48] Gosh, she's great.

[00:31:50] What did you do for what did you do for a shirm?

[00:31:53] So for sure.

[00:31:54] I worked out of Alexandria,

[00:31:57] Virginia and I was the on the membership team.

[00:32:00] So my role was student membership and the young professional

[00:32:03] network.

[00:32:04] So it was really getting those people that were up and coming in HR

[00:32:07] that actually knew they wanted to do HR in college.

[00:32:10] Unlike myself who thought journalism was the key.

[00:32:12] These folks were smart and already knew that's probably HR is

[00:32:15] the one.

[00:32:16] So, right now it was, that was my role.

[00:32:18] And actually we had you speaking at our conference.

[00:32:21] We had one in Austin of God.

[00:32:23] It was probably 10 plus years ago.

[00:32:25] Yep.

[00:32:26] That was such a fun bit.

[00:32:27] Ryan, you had a question.

[00:32:28] I'm sorry.

[00:32:29] No, no, I was just going to continue the career.

[00:32:31] But now that we're talking about you talking to young students

[00:32:35] about career advice,

[00:32:37] the door has been open.

[00:32:38] I wasn't going to mention this.

[00:32:40] But I'm sure you did a wonderful job.

[00:32:45] But I need to know what did you tell them about what they're

[00:32:49] getting ready to embark on in their illustrious careers?

[00:32:53] I think I told them why I fell in love with HR and also told them

[00:32:57] that the job of understanding people and people's desires

[00:33:02] and engaging with people, it's a relentless pursuit.

[00:33:07] Like it's not you get there and it's done.

[00:33:10] Because by the time you get there and you've engaged

[00:33:13] that person, they're onto something else.

[00:33:16] They're interested in something else.

[00:33:18] And so I think there's more about getting them to understand

[00:33:22] the complexities of both engaging and retaining talent

[00:33:27] and again, caring.

[00:33:30] I mean, getting back to something you brought up very early on.

[00:33:34] You can have the knowledge of HR,

[00:33:38] but can you carry it forth and show people that you care about them

[00:33:42] and their needs?

[00:33:44] And yeah, I think even at that point,

[00:33:46] I was probably more of an employee advocate,

[00:33:48] candidate advocate type of person.

[00:33:51] Where it was more about, hey listen,

[00:33:53] you're going to get pushed in between two forces

[00:33:56] of the company's needs and the employee's needs.

[00:34:01] And at one point you're going to have to pick

[00:34:04] because you can't be both.

[00:34:06] And the company is paying you.

[00:34:09] So you want to hold that.

[00:34:12] You want to be loyal to that.

[00:34:14] But really your loyalty needs to be to employees

[00:34:18] and candidates.

[00:34:19] And so you've got to, that's a very fine line,

[00:34:22] very hard line to toe by the way.

[00:34:26] But yeah, I wouldn't.

[00:34:27] I didn't tell many of the darkness.

[00:34:29] I didn't want to scare them.

[00:34:31] I didn't want to scare them at all.

[00:34:32] It signs up me like you're...

[00:34:34] I don't want to scare them.

[00:34:35] I just want them to understand that it's a noble profession

[00:34:39] and it's a noble pursuit to actually care about employees.

[00:34:44] But you know, again, it's not easy also.

[00:34:48] So, Tara, William brought up a point just now.

[00:34:51] At one point in time you're going to have to choose.

[00:34:55] Are you an advocate for the company?

[00:34:57] Or are you an advocate for the people I know?

[00:35:00] Perfect world.

[00:35:01] You're down the center and you represent both,

[00:35:04] which of course we're always going to in the space.

[00:35:08] How does someone in that role who's struggling with that,

[00:35:13] how do they pick a side?

[00:35:15] Where do they go?

[00:35:17] Yeah, I'm going to say the first thing is it always depends.

[00:35:20] Right?

[00:35:21] That's the lame answer.

[00:35:22] But it does depend on what it is.

[00:35:24] And you have to weigh the facts.

[00:35:26] To me, you have to look at the whole thing

[00:35:28] and you have to be able to look at it from every angle

[00:35:31] and then understand which is going to bring

[00:35:34] the greatest return for that decision.

[00:35:37] If I go in this direction with the company,

[00:35:39] am I doing my fiduciary duty to make sure

[00:35:43] that I'm keeping the company de-risked

[00:35:45] from whatever that decision would be.

[00:35:47] And then if I don't make that decision,

[00:35:49] what is the risk to the company?

[00:35:51] And then you look at the employee

[00:35:53] and what is the risk to them as well.

[00:35:55] I think depending on what the situation is,

[00:35:57] you could fall either which way.

[00:35:58] And I hate to say that I don't mean to be

[00:36:00] on the fence person, but it really does.

[00:36:03] It's looking at things that are legal, moral, and ethical.

[00:36:09] It either takes you outside of the bounds.

[00:36:12] It's easy to side with the other one.

[00:36:14] So if a company takes you outside of legal bounds,

[00:36:18] then you obviously are going to protect the employees.

[00:36:21] If an employee takes you outside of legal bounds,

[00:36:24] you're obviously going to protect the employer.

[00:36:27] So it is going to be a situation for sure.

[00:36:30] But you've got to care so many people in HR come out

[00:36:35] and they're kind of mass produced

[00:36:37] to just care about the company.

[00:36:39] And it's like, you know, that's that old fashioned,

[00:36:43] hey Sally, can you bring a box to HR,

[00:36:47] gather all your things type stuff.

[00:36:49] Like HR people don't want to approach HR.

[00:36:52] Because they don't see them as advocates.

[00:36:54] And I think that's a very old way of thinking of HR.

[00:36:58] A modern way of thinking of HR is like,

[00:37:00] these people care about me.

[00:37:02] So I may as well tell them the truth.

[00:37:04] And again, depending on where the ethics and morality

[00:37:07] and legality fall, then you have to as an HR professional,

[00:37:11] you have to protect whoever.

[00:37:13] And that's there in lies my feelings earlier about

[00:37:17] does the company really truly care?

[00:37:19] Because my contact is with you as HR.

[00:37:24] Do you care for me?

[00:37:25] Do you care for the company?

[00:37:26] And if I don't feel that you care for me,

[00:37:28] the company doesn't care about anything it's doing.

[00:37:31] Oh, that's interesting.

[00:37:32] In my mind.

[00:37:33] That's kind of how I always have taken it.

[00:37:35] I think you're right.

[00:37:36] In many ways, we're the ambassador, right?

[00:37:38] So if you have a great HR in people person,

[00:37:42] you're going to do well.

[00:37:43] Your employees will feel that you care.

[00:37:45] But if you are to millions point the transactional HR

[00:37:48] operational kind of person, then that will come through as well.

[00:37:51] Which is why I think like the HR business partner role has

[00:37:54] been such a great, you know, addition to the HR,

[00:37:57] you know, suite of capabilities that we do because

[00:38:01] that really is that partnership and that feeling of,

[00:38:04] of that I will say, you know, for,

[00:38:07] for most recently we had to go through, you know,

[00:38:10] a layoff right before I was deported.

[00:38:12] I was impacted by that as well.

[00:38:13] It's right.

[00:38:14] So I had to have the task of letting people know that their

[00:38:17] roles were not going to be there any longer.

[00:38:20] And if we had to sit,

[00:38:21] we sat for a while to think about, you know,

[00:38:23] what is the best way to do this because we do care about

[00:38:26] the individuals and we care about how they feel and we

[00:38:29] want to be fair with them.

[00:38:30] But at the same time understanding that the organization

[00:38:33] was going through what they were going through and there was

[00:38:35] a need, you know, to preserve, you know,

[00:38:37] financials and all those kinds of things.

[00:38:39] It's like that balance and what do you do?

[00:38:41] And then employees are coming back saying,

[00:38:42] is this all I get for severance?

[00:38:44] I mean, can I get more?

[00:38:45] And so you've got to figure out that balance point

[00:38:48] between keeping the company safe, right?

[00:38:50] You want to make sure that you're not spending all the

[00:38:53] money for the companies, you know, not budgeting for me.

[00:38:55] You also want to make sure that this person feels

[00:38:57] like in that time of need that you're there to help them

[00:39:00] get through all the way through from when they were,

[00:39:02] you know, very first offered a position until when,

[00:39:04] you know, that time is that you say goodbye.

[00:39:06] And I guess this is maybe a weird thing,

[00:39:09] but like you look at, you know, how many people came

[00:39:11] back afterwards with a complaint or a letter or a

[00:39:14] grievance?

[00:39:15] And I think, you know, my team and I thought really

[00:39:18] hard about that.

[00:39:19] How do we do that?

[00:39:21] And we set up actually calendars with them.

[00:39:23] Hey, if you need to talk to us at any time,

[00:39:25] set it up on your schedule when you feel like you

[00:39:28] want to talk to us.

[00:39:29] And then let's hear what you have to say and then

[00:39:32] giving them the empower and let them feel like they

[00:39:34] were under control was a way that we would show

[00:39:37] caring rather than saying, come to a meeting,

[00:39:39] like you said, come to a meeting at two o'clock

[00:39:41] and we're going to talk about this.

[00:39:43] It's no, it's, you know, that way that you at

[00:39:46] least make people feel like they're important and

[00:39:49] that they get to decide.

[00:39:51] But at the same time, you still have the controls

[00:39:53] of the company and you're still, you know, holding

[00:39:56] that, you know, to account.

[00:39:59] So I don't know if that's a great example, but it

[00:40:01] is just top of mind for me.

[00:40:03] It's just, you know, when we have to say goodbye to

[00:40:05] people, it's just as important as when they're

[00:40:07] here.

[00:40:08] Right.

[00:40:09] Well, you did all this stuff in the romance phase

[00:40:11] to recruit them.

[00:40:12] You could at least have the humane in what you

[00:40:15] do next with it.

[00:40:17] Right.

[00:40:18] And so I think companies that over index when

[00:40:21] doing a great job and the candidate experience

[00:40:24] should do as equal of a good job in the alumni

[00:40:27] experience.

[00:40:28] I like the alumni experience.

[00:40:30] That's great.

[00:40:31] So whether or not you choose to, or it's been

[00:40:34] chosen for you to, you're now an alumnus and

[00:40:37] we should care about you in the same sense

[00:40:40] that we care about when we brought you in.

[00:40:42] So, you know, I think that again, care

[00:40:45] for using that word loosely, Ryan.

[00:40:48] I just have one question left Tara.

[00:40:51] I want to, it's just the advice now, now

[00:40:54] knowing what you know about your own career

[00:40:57] and kind of also what you've seen with everybody

[00:40:59] else because being president of, do you all

[00:41:03] say Ph.R.A.?

[00:41:05] Because I've always said Pyrrha.

[00:41:07] Okay, good.

[00:41:08] You're right.

[00:41:09] So being president of Pyrrha, you also could

[00:41:11] see a lot of other peers.

[00:41:13] The advice that you would give kind of a

[00:41:16] younger version of yourself, what would it be?

[00:41:19] To do the hard thing first, right?

[00:41:22] It's muddle for me going and getting

[00:41:25] masters degree, doing all the things that are

[00:41:27] hard first and then not to be afraid to use

[00:41:29] your voice is the other one.

[00:41:31] I think as a younger professional you might

[00:41:34] see things and you're like, ooh, I don't know

[00:41:37] if I should do it.

[00:41:38] You know, I don't know.

[00:41:39] Right.

[00:41:40] And you get tentative about it.

[00:41:41] But I've learned as I've gone, you know,

[00:41:43] longer in my career and gotten bolder, I guess

[00:41:45] and maybe that's something that happens with

[00:41:47] age and experience.

[00:41:48] But to speak up, if you see something that

[00:41:51] you don't agree with, if you're in an

[00:41:53] executive meeting or you're in a team

[00:41:55] meeting and people are going a certain

[00:41:57] direction and you feel like maybe you have

[00:41:59] a better suggestion, a lot of times people

[00:42:01] will just sit quietly because they don't

[00:42:03] want that attention on them.

[00:42:04] But don't be afraid to do that because

[00:42:05] you're valuable.

[00:42:06] Not to be controversial.

[00:42:08] But is that young in one's career,

[00:42:10] they just don't have the confidence?

[00:42:13] Or is it...

[00:42:14] I didn't have the confidence.

[00:42:16] Well, I'm not...

[00:42:17] I was just pointing out.

[00:42:19] The...

[00:42:20] The man didn't...

[00:42:22] Where are we right?

[00:42:24] I wonder how much of this is gender related.

[00:42:27] And why I'm asking that is I'm not

[00:42:31] sure I've ever shut up.

[00:42:34] So I struggle with this part.

[00:42:36] This could be a personality flaw,

[00:42:38] character flaw.

[00:42:39] Like if I've been in a boardroom

[00:42:41] and someone says something stupid,

[00:42:43] even in my 20s,

[00:42:46] I would say, yeah, that's fucked up.

[00:42:48] That's stupid.

[00:42:49] It could be.

[00:42:50] Like I would just say that.

[00:42:51] Now, I don't think I had the articulation

[00:42:54] now that I do now in terms of being

[00:42:57] able to back that up, but I could point

[00:42:59] it out and I did point it out.

[00:43:01] But again...

[00:43:03] Do you see anything?

[00:43:05] I mean, is there...

[00:43:06] I don't want to make something that's

[00:43:07] not there to not be there.

[00:43:09] Is...

[00:43:10] Do you see anything that's gender there?

[00:43:12] You're just...

[00:43:13] You're early in your career and you're just...

[00:43:15] One is not as confident as they are.

[00:43:17] Elders are correct.

[00:43:18] You know, that's an interesting point

[00:43:20] and that's my therapy to take back

[00:43:22] and really think about for myself.

[00:43:24] But in general, I do think women

[00:43:26] in general do have struggles with

[00:43:28] speaking up.

[00:43:29] I think it's one of those things where

[00:43:32] getting to that level, when you get

[00:43:34] to the executive level, you don't

[00:43:36] have very many people that look like

[00:43:38] you sitting around the table.

[00:43:39] And so maybe there might be a little

[00:43:41] bit going on.

[00:43:42] I think for me, it wasn't so much that

[00:43:44] as it was just me not being a confident.

[00:43:46] I didn't have the experience under my belt.

[00:43:48] So I felt like I was struggling with

[00:43:50] people, you know, thinking that I was

[00:43:52] too young to have an opinion.

[00:43:54] I see good allies.

[00:43:56] This is the thing now that we know

[00:43:59] more than we did years ago is

[00:44:01] now good allies, when that person's

[00:44:03] quiet, you call on them and say,

[00:44:06] Tara, what do you think?

[00:44:08] Obviously, you've heard all the

[00:44:10] counterpoint stuff.

[00:44:11] You got a strong opinion either way.

[00:44:13] Like the allies have to pull that stuff out.

[00:44:16] They got to tease that stuff out and

[00:44:18] say, hey, you know, what do you think?

[00:44:20] Because if we don't do that, then

[00:44:22] yeah, I think it could, it could,

[00:44:24] we could exacerbate the problem.

[00:44:26] That's interesting you say that.

[00:44:28] I know we're coming up on time,

[00:44:30] but I can remember fresh

[00:44:32] out of college early 20s.

[00:44:35] I had a lot of opinions personally

[00:44:39] and I never had an issue at all.

[00:44:42] Telling my managers, my bosses,

[00:44:44] people I, like my opinion was my

[00:44:46] opinion and I was that guy.

[00:44:48] But when I started to get,

[00:44:50] this was very quickly, I would

[00:44:52] start to get invited into what

[00:44:54] at the time seemed like higher level

[00:44:56] sales meetings and strategy

[00:44:58] meetings because of my opinion.

[00:45:00] I was a mouse at the table.

[00:45:02] Really?

[00:45:04] And I didn't say anything.

[00:45:06] Part of it was because

[00:45:08] I didn't

[00:45:10] now, gender aside,

[00:45:12] I didn't look as

[00:45:14] distinguished as the people in my

[00:45:16] view of it.

[00:45:18] I'm looking around the table,

[00:45:20] salt and pepper hair, right?

[00:45:22] They've been there, they've got the

[00:45:24] in order to look just like, hey, what's up?

[00:45:26] Like I was the young guy kid on

[00:45:28] the block and I didn't talk

[00:45:30] like them. So I shut up

[00:45:32] and I remember that. But William, you

[00:45:34] know, at the point an ally

[00:45:36] asked you.

[00:45:38] So the people that brought me into

[00:45:40] the room, I'm sure everybody else

[00:45:42] around the tables, the hell is he doing

[00:45:44] here? The person that brought me in

[00:45:46] said, Ryan, I'm interested

[00:45:48] to get your take on this.

[00:45:50] Immediately, I had the confidence

[00:45:52] well after a first time

[00:45:54] or two, I had the confidence to

[00:45:56] talk like me. I didn't have

[00:45:58] to talk like them.

[00:46:00] Right. And they took

[00:46:02] advice and they took my thoughts

[00:46:04] for what it was.

[00:46:06] I was still wearing hoodies, like

[00:46:08] same, same deal. It's just

[00:46:10] who I was. And it was at that

[00:46:12] moment because there's a lot of things

[00:46:14] that I wanted to say and I'm sure you

[00:46:16] Terry, you probably come across this. You don't

[00:46:18] say it and somebody else says it

[00:46:20] like that is amazing. Like you mother

[00:46:22] fucker. Like I

[00:46:24] literally should have just said that, right?

[00:46:26] But when someone started to pull it out

[00:46:28] of me, that's when I

[00:46:30] changed. That's when I changed. I said, you know, I don't need

[00:46:32] to look like you. I don't need to feel like

[00:46:34] you. I don't even need to back it up.

[00:46:36] I'm just going to say it

[00:46:38] and that was my fear. Couldn't back it up.

[00:46:40] But, you know, different

[00:46:42] than gender. But that's my story.

[00:46:44] I'm sticking to it. No, that makes

[00:46:46] perfect sense. I think

[00:46:48] once you have the confidence though, that is

[00:46:50] it. And to me, very

[00:46:52] you need that validation maybe

[00:46:54] a little bit like the first couple of times

[00:46:56] I want to hear your opinion

[00:46:58] and those kind of things. And now

[00:47:00] after that, you're on your own. You're good.

[00:47:02] Well, right. And now I think

[00:47:04] you know when you're in this position

[00:47:06] and you're a leader in HR

[00:47:08] you are the ambassador for the employees

[00:47:10] and the voice. And when you see something that's right

[00:47:12] or wrong, you can't be shy

[00:47:14] because that's

[00:47:16] that's when you're not doing your duty

[00:47:18] to your company and to the people that you

[00:47:20] support. So you're also in a great

[00:47:22] position now where if you see those

[00:47:24] people being quiet in that

[00:47:26] meeting, you're like, okay,

[00:47:28] I know what's going on here. Yeah.

[00:47:30] So that's wonderful. Yeah.

[00:47:32] Tara, this has been absolutely fantastic.

[00:47:34] Thank you so much

[00:47:36] for your time and your wisdom.

[00:47:38] Love what you're doing. Love that

[00:47:40] you're tackling change because not easy

[00:47:42] and thanks for coming on the show.

[00:47:44] Yeah, thanks for having me. It's been