How HR Tackles New Tech, With Oyster VP Matteo Bordin

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[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to PeopleTech, the podcast of Workforce AI.News, I'm Mark Feffer.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Today I'm chatting with Matteo Bordin, the Vice President of Product at Oyster.

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to talk about how new technologies like local development are changing HR's role in the organization

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_03]: as well as the practitioners use and approach to address technology.

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_03]: All that and more on this edition of PeopleTech.

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Hi Matteo, welcome!

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_03]: So I wanted to talk about embedded software and low-code software

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_03]: which I know Oyster has been looking at and developing for a long time.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_03]: These two things make it easier to create new solutions

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_03]: but I wondered if you could talk about the dynamic behind all of this.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Is this the kind of thing that the market's been calling for and users really want?

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_03]: What brought Oyster to the point of wanting to develop and build these solutions?

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so the oyster is in the business of global employment

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and the core challenge for us is to quickly develop HR solutions

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_01]: that are compliant in multiple geographies, in multiple jurisdictions.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And when I say multiple, I mean 150 countries across the world.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So it becomes very challenging for us to fine-tune our software

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_01]: to respond to both the nuances of local legislation

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and to the evolution of those legislation

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_01]: because every year the government sends out new updates to local legislations

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: they change how taxes are calculated and so on and so forth.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So in order for us to speed up the development of our solution

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_01]: we decided to adopt a different approach

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_01]: which consists of developing our in-house low-code platform

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_01]: that enables us to easily roll out new functionalities on our platform.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'll make just a simple comparison here.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Basically you have one option that is to say you hard-code the complete behavior

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_01]: that represents the logic of tax payroll local legislation in every country

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: or the choice that we did was to develop an internal platform

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_01]: that enables domain experts to declare these changes, these regulations

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_01]: like for example saying I'm working in France

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_01]: so to say that in France we have a probation period

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_01]: that is four months, can be renewed, this is blah blah blah

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_01]: all the regulations do that in a way that is very close to their way of expressing constraints

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a declarative language and then having a sort of virtual machine

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_01]: that transforms that declaration, a specification from domain experts

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_01]: from legal team basically into actual software

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and this enables to empower domain experts in the legal team

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_01]: to actually develop software without requiring engineering investment.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So we build this infrastructure so that we can scale very rapidly across multiple countries

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and we can always be up to date with our product.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_03]: And do you find that users like people in the legal department or any other department

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_03]: do they like the fact that they're taking on the responsibility for building a solution?

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean I understand why it makes sense to let them do so

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_03]: but ultimately are they willing and ready to do it?

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that's a very good point.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_01]: The challenge is building an interface for them to somehow formalize their knowledge

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_01]: formalize their expertise in a way that is easy enough for them to master and control.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course we are not asking lawyers to code

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_01]: we are asking lawyers to fill an interface that is haggling graphical

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_01]: it's sort of what you see is what you get if you want a kind of interface

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: where they can express all these regulations

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_01]: they can see and also kind of predict what is the impact on the actual software platform

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_01]: so they can kind of test it out

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_01]: which makes the the world process unusual initially for them

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_01]: but also very fulfilling because they are much more empowered

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_01]: they feel much more part of the development engine of a software company

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and they feel much more at the core of the actual business that the software company is doing

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_01]: which is developing software solutions.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_03]: How about the HR user, the HR staffer?

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Is there anything unique about them aside from other users

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_03]: about taking things into their own hands?

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Are you referring to our user?

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to take a break real quick just to let you know about a new show

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_02]: we've just added to the network up next at work

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_02]: hosted by Gene and Kate A'Keele of the Devon Group

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_02]: fantastic show if you're looking for something that pushes the norm

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_02]: pushes the boundaries has some really spirited conversations

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Google up next at work Gene and Kate A'Keele from the Devon Group

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_03]: so our customers could be your customers or just HR people

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_03]: you know in general

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah so in general HR, the HR audience

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_01]: especially our HR audience is particularly sensitive to a previous rate to compliance

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_01]: all in all their role they have two main roles

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_01]: one role is of course to attract the natural talent

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and the other role is to also protect and show that their company

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_01]: their employer is always compliant from an HR perspective

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_01]: so they have this double interest which we've managed to serve with our solution

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and in particular what we were describing before

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_01]: is very reassuring for them to know that we do have that legal expertise

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_01]: that knowledge in house and that we are able to formalize

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_01]: in a programmatic way that's knowledge into our platform

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_03]: how about embedded software the idea of taking your application

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_03]: and sort of melding it with another commonly used application

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_03]: what's going on there what's behind that I hear more and more about it

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_03]: again is it something users are really looking for

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_03]: or what are the advantages of it can you talk about that

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah so first of all the use of let's say what labeling or embedding solution

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_01]: inside the third party is there's nothing new under the sun

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_01]: when we talk about a very successful company like I don't know Dr. Sine

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Sine has been doing that for years they take their electronic center capabilities

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: they slap it into a third party app

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Looker which has been acquired by Google

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_01]: had the same capabilities this idea of embedded analytics

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_01]: that you can bring your app and customize

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_01]: is something that has been pretty much used

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: now in our specific domain

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_01]: we came very quickly to the realization

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_01]: that there is a need to

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_01]: or a best of a solution in the global employment space

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_01]: let's say across your employment global payroll

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_01]: global contractors

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and the level of investment that is required

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: to achieve that level of completeness

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_01]: that level of quality is very very tangible very very significant

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_01]: so from our perspective

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_01]: it is very unlikely that a lot of the players

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_01]: in the HR tech ecosystem is going to put that investment down

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_01]: in order to create something that is comparable to what oyster built over the last

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_01]: three years is by itself in own ventures

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_01]: 600 people

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of investment there

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_01]: so our idea is really to

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_01]: try to enable to empower the whole ecosystem

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_01]: to embrace this idea of global employment

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and in order to do so the most direct way

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_01]: is to make our technology

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_01]: as accessible and as

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_01]: distributable as possible

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and this is where the embedded play comes in

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_01]: this to say you're being a solution that can be easily distributed

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: across any HR tech platform there

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_01]: by enabling any players in the ecosystem

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_01]: to embrace global

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_01]: to support global employment for their customers

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_01]: so that ideally this way of working

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_01]: this future of work is actually becoming a reality

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_03]: one of the things that strikes me about embedded softwares

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_03]: there's more people doing it

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_03]: you're finding more people looking for ways

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_03]: to put their products into teams say or Slack or something like that

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_03]: from your point of view as a solutions provider

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_03]: how does that impact

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_03]: your product

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_03]: you're giving up a certain amount of control

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_03]: possibly a component

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_03]: of your brand

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_03]: because you may not control the graphics

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_03]: and you look and feel so much anymore

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_03]: is it becoming something

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_03]: that you're more concerned about or is it

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_03]: changing the way you develop your products

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_01]: so it definitely changes the way you develop

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_01]: the product from a technical perspective

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: because first of all

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_01]: you need to think the product

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_01]: is put in a much more modular way

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and you need to think from the start

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_01]: about how third-party platforms

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_01]: we're going to connect to your product

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_01]: is that via APIs, web widgets etc

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_01]: so the architecture, the software architecture part

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_01]: becomes much more dominant conversation

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_01]: in the beginning of the product development

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and this translates

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_01]: to making much more important investment

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_01]: in those areas

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and to think with an additional person in mind

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_01]: usually when you think about your persona

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_01]: when you develop software, either your customers

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_01]: or your users and here you have also your partner

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_01]: as a additional persona which means really taking

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_01]: a different mindset

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_01]: having a different approach from both a product perspective

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and a go-to-market perspective and a business development

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_01]: perspective so when it comes to pricing

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_01]: etc there are a lot of implications to that

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_01]: so that definitely makes a change

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_01]: it requires being much more technical if you want

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_01]: when it comes to product development

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and of course it has an impact on the visibility

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_01]: of the brand now in our specific case

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and in the case specifically of EOR

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and Global Payroll we have the

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_01]: we have had the opportunity to build a very important

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_01]: brand in the past, we have a B Corp certified company

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_01]: the only one in the space that has

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_01]: a B Corp certification so we are pretty confident there

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_01]: that our brand is strong enough

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_01]: to be sustained even though we distribute

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_01]: through an embedded go-to-market

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Is it going to the point

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_03]: where you think you may not worry about

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_03]: your own way in, your own interface and such

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_03]: because there will always be somebody else

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_03]: handling the distribution or do you think that

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_03]: the standalone solution model is with us for a while

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that the two

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_01]: at least in the foreseeable future the two solutions will continue

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_01]: in particular because today the way that we have

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_01]: outlined the embedded strategy

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_01]: is at multiple levels of complexity and investment

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_01]: that is to say third-party platform can just connect

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_01]: through APIs for data exchange with our platform

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_01]: by maintaining completely separate experiences

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_01]: while they can also bring everything together

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_01]: so I think that in the immediate

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_01]: term the two will continue to exist

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_01]: in the future let's say what three years from now

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that the embedded would be the dominant distribution play

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I also think that

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_01]: while there are several players in the ecosystem

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that this kind of partnership always requires

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_01]: some kind of direct involvement from both parties

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_01]: in order to be successful so

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't expect anyone to pick the API build

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_01]: an application without our consent

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_01]: or without our knowledge

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_01]: so there will always be some kind of

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: in the end there is an economic transaction behind the scenes happening

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_01]: so there will always be some kind of

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_01]: control or some kind of visibility on how

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: defining customer experience of course we care for the customers in the end

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_01]: we care that our customers

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_01]: even though we distribute sometimes through a third party

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_01]: we always care that our customers can get the best

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_01]: experiences possible

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_03]: wanted to take a step back a little bit

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_03]: we're talking about

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_03]: sort of a specific angle of the technology

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_03]: but of course I have to ask you a couple of questions

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_03]: about AI or nobody would take it seriously

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_03]: with all the things

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_03]: that's going on

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_03]: out in the world right now with generative

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_03]: AI and such how

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_03]: do you view that world

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_01]: so that's an interesting question

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_01]: there are multiple ways to answer that

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and all of them are probably equally fine

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_01]: first of all I think that

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_01]: of course everybody acknowledges that AI

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_01]: has come as a kind of a revolution

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_01]: to our space in general

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_01]: for every blue

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and white colored work job out there

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_01]: now it's also important to acknowledge which cases

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_01]: a generative AI solution

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_01]: make absolute sense because

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_01]: that's where it can bring additional efficiency

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_01]: can bring additional creativity to the table

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and in which other cases on the other side

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_01]: we do have perfectly workable solution that do not require any

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_01]: AI augmentation

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_01]: so in our specific case

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I do think that there are part of the HR workflows

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and the HR day to day jobs that can be

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_01]: perfectly fine being executed the way they've been in the past

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_01]: because basically they are completely deterministic algorithm

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and there are areas which are more around

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: the supporting the creative

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and more complicated knowledge related work

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_01]: of our customers

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_01]: where AI can actually bring

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_01]: a big value

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_01]: now I'm going to make an example here

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: we recently announced a partnership with the Josh Bersin

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Josh Bersin is a pretty well known

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_01]: influencer in the HR tech space

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_01]: where basically we built together using

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_01]: our first party content in AI system

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: to augment the capabilities

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_01]: of HR teams worldwide

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_01]: basically helping them

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: mastering the nuances, the complexities

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_01]: of global employment

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_01]: this is one good example where AI actually makes sense

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: because if you can have very strong

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_01]: first party data that you can rely on

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and you can build a safe system

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_01]: that access those data only that is instructed

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_01]: on those data only you really bring that kind of value

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and productivity increase to your customers

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_01]: so that is a good niche, good example of

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_01]: valid application of AI

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_03]: You think in general, I'm not talking about

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_03]: oyster specifically but in general

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_03]: are companies going out there

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_03]: and like looking for solutions that they can

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_03]: apply AI to

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_03]: even if it doesn't necessarily make sense

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_03]: but it's the bandwagon gotten so

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_03]: big that you just have to

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_03]: start putting your toe in that water

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_03]: whether you really see an immediate need or not

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to answer with my personal opinion

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_01]: which is not the person anybody else here

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_01]: there is a risk that I see here

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_01]: is that companies that are building just this

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_01]: is more layer on top of

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_01]: the next model of AI

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_01]: they're going to be disrupted by the next

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_01]: judge GPT 5.0 or 6.0

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_01]: in the sense that

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: if the only value that you bring is very soft

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_01]: very small software layer

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_01]: or experience layer on top of the core technology

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_01]: the next model, the next LLM

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_01]: will be rich enough to cover that somehow

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_01]: to provide that level of flexibility

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_01]: so I think that the

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_01]: challenge of jumping on a bad wagon

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_01]: is also to

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_01]: there is a marketing aspect of course

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's also being smart enough

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_01]: in understanding where you can actually provide value

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and finding

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_01]: a sustainable way

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_01]: to develop product in the long term

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_01]: you can produce value for your customers and for your company

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's I think a little bit challenging right now

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_01]: in the sense that the

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_01]: it's so easy to access AI capabilities

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_01]: that the temptation to build this small packages

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: is very, very high

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and sometimes I don't see this as evolving into something

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_01]: that can have long lasting value for customers

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Well thanks very much for taking the time to talk today

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_03]: it was great to talk with you, I hope we can do it again sometime

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Sure, thanks very much

[00:19:02] Music

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[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_03]: My guest today has been Matteo Bordini

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_03]: the Vice President of Product at Oyster

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_03]: and this has been People Tech

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_03]: the podcast of WorkforceAI.News

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_03]: We are also a part of the Work Defined Podcast Network

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Find them at www.wrkdefined.com

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_03]: and to keep up with AI technology and HR

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[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm Mark Buffer