Automation for Job Seekers, with 3Sixty Insights' Geoff Webb

[00:00:01] Dieser komplexe Finanzierungstalk ist ganz schön anstrengend. Ob ich mein Depot jemals angelegt kriege?

[00:00:06] Aber du hast doch schon ein Depot.

[00:00:08] Äh, nee.

[00:00:09] Doch, du hast das Vodafone Gigadepot.

[00:00:11] Ach, stimmt. Und da habe ich ja selbst in der Hand, wie groß mein Depot ist.

[00:00:15] Jetzt mit dem Vodafone Gigadepot und verbrauchtes Datenvolumen in den nächsten Monat mitnehmen.

[00:00:19] Go on im zuverlässigen 5G-Netz von Vodafone. Vodafone. Together we can.

[00:00:26] Welcome to PeopleTech, the podcast of WorkforceAI.news. I'm Mark Pfeffer.

[00:00:43] My guest today is Jeff Webb. He's a long-term industry analyst, a contributing analyst to

[00:00:49] 360 Insights, and the author of Center the Pendulum, a new book about HR that's available on Amazon.

[00:00:55] We're going to talk about a new product that we've just discovered that brings AI to the world of

[00:01:03] JobHunders. So, Jeff, welcome. Thanks for joining me.

[00:01:08] Thank you for having me. Happy to be there.

[00:01:12] So, apparently on GitHub has appeared an app or a bot, to be technically correct about it,

[00:01:23] that will go through job ads on LinkedIn, pick out the ones that it thinks are right for you,

[00:01:29] and then apply for them, not just sending your resume in a cover letter, but also answering

[00:01:36] basic questions that may be asked during the initial screening process. So, all of a sudden,

[00:01:46] talent acquisition teams and employers aren't the only ones who have AI in their quiver.

[00:01:52] Now JobHunders have it too. So, let me ask you first, what's your reaction to that?

[00:01:59] Yeah, I think, thanks Mark. You know, my reaction is that it's not surprising that we see AI popping

[00:02:07] up on the sort of the applicant side, or sometimes it feels more like the supplicant side. The recruiters

[00:02:14] themselves have been using AI for some time now to filter and stack rank and, you know, sort of route

[00:02:21] resumes as they come in. So, I think it's inevitable that you see it popping up on the other side too.

[00:02:27] I think it speaks to this almost sort of sense of an arms race between recruiter and a recruitee,

[00:02:35] as far as getting through the process is concerned. And that ultimately, I think,

[00:02:41] it feels like it's almost becoming very adversarial between the people applying for jobs and the

[00:02:46] companies to which they are applying. And this is therefore, you know, an unexpected,

[00:02:52] but rather sobering twist, I think, to the story right now.

[00:02:58] Well, it struck me as being kind of inevitable that at some point, someone was going to start to

[00:03:03] develop AI tools, you know, for candidates. The product's called AI Hawk. And its developer,

[00:03:11] who's an Italian software developer, says the idea was to sort of level the playing field

[00:03:18] between employers and candidates. Does this really do that?

[00:03:25] Unlikely. I would think in the first iteration of these things, we've, you know, you've seen the

[00:03:28] sort of development of the early days of some of the large language models and the generative stuff

[00:03:34] that was, you know, rudimentary, I think at best, and sometimes downright disturbing.

[00:03:41] My sense would be that this though is the opening salvo in what is inevitably going to continue,

[00:03:46] that people are going to use these tools, the tools are going to be developed.

[00:03:51] And again, you're going to see this sort of sense of as applicants automate the process of reaching

[00:03:58] further for more jobs, looking for, you know, looking to get through the sort of the hoops that

[00:04:04] are put in place from the point of view of the recruiter, as they filter the applicants and they route

[00:04:09] them and so on and rank them. It's inevitable this thing's going to get better. So I, with the,

[00:04:13] would I personally use it? Probably I would be a little skeptical of allowing something else to

[00:04:19] completely take the process of applying for a job and answering questions for me, even with the sort

[00:04:25] of benefit of scale. But do I think it's going to continue? Yeah, I think it's, I think to your

[00:04:30] point, it's inevitably going to continue to develop and I would expect to see more and more of these

[00:04:34] tools coming up. So how's, how's that changed the dynamics of the hiring process? I mean, there was

[00:04:40] somebody on GitHub who said they've been using this and they applied for 2,800 jobs over the course

[00:04:45] of three months. That's got to have an impact on talent acquisition. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, again,

[00:04:54] I think it goes back to, it starts to feel adversarial, right? It starts to feel as though you're in some

[00:04:58] kind of arms race between the two sides that on the talent acquisition side, they are typically

[00:05:05] massively overworked. They don't have enough people. They're often struggling to get, you know,

[00:05:09] to figure out how to get the right candidates in the door and route them and filter them. And so

[00:05:14] inevitably they've moved to automation and AI to try and help in that process. At the same time,

[00:05:21] as a person applying for a job, you're simply trying to get in front of an actual human being.

[00:05:26] And so as a result, you can go a couple of different ways. You can become highly targeted

[00:05:30] or you can become much more of a broad kind of reach approach. And I think this, this speaks to

[00:05:36] that second of, if I just apply to enough stuff, eventually I'll get in front of a person. The,

[00:05:40] the, the point here is though, you know, what should be a very almost uniquely human to human

[00:05:47] interaction, one to one interaction between a person and a company. Like I'm applying for a job to

[00:05:53] fill a team, you know, a vacancy on a team working with a group of other people.

[00:05:58] You're, you're essentially increasingly removing humans at either end of that interaction.

[00:06:03] And I feel like that direction is not a, an entirely healthy direction to be headed.

[00:06:10] Well, this also sets up a situation where the first step could be AI talking to AI. I mean,

[00:06:18] assuming that the ATS that the employer is using has some kind of AI, you know, technology, which,

[00:06:25] you know, probably does this day and age, you know, that removes the human from the initial contact

[00:06:33] completely. What's the long-term impact of that?

[00:06:40] You know, the thing that strikes me first, when I first heard about this from you actually, and then

[00:06:45] we've, we, you know, we've been thinking about this. The, one of the things that strikes me immediately

[00:06:51] is again, if you, as you remove the person from the process, what are you left with? Right. You're

[00:06:57] left with essentially, you're left with their resume, their, their, their answers to their questions.

[00:07:03] You're, you're not hiring a resume. You know, at some point, the actual person has to turn up,

[00:07:10] interact with other actual people and do a job that needs to be delivered. And the, by putting all of

[00:07:18] these sort of non-human interactions in place, you're simply delaying the point at which you can

[00:07:23] make an actual evaluative judgment about whether this person fits in your team, fits in the company,

[00:07:28] fits in the culture. And if I think back, so many of the conversations I've had have been about

[00:07:33] cultural fit rather than simply experience. So many people are thinking, how do I hire people that

[00:07:41] will fit in my team, that will fit within my culture, that will, that I would want to work with.

[00:07:46] And yet what's happening is the process is becoming, is devolving into, can I put in place a sufficiently

[00:07:54] complex set of checklists such that your AI, as it create, answers those questions, sounds like you're the

[00:08:00] right kind of person and filtering if you don't do as well as everybody else does. And so you're taking

[00:08:07] the person out of this and the person is the very thing you're trying to get to.

[00:08:11] Well, but if this is applied at the earliest stages of the process, basically the screening phase,

[00:08:19] is the screening phase where you identify people with cultural fit anyway? I mean, isn't this just

[00:08:26] maybe adding a step to screening, welcome or not, but employers will still have to winnow it down

[00:08:33] from a screen related set to handpicked?

[00:08:37] You do, you do. But again, what's happening here is you're essentially, you have to think,

[00:08:43] what am I evaluating against, right? And I'm evaluating against whatever AI tool you have's ability

[00:08:50] to match whatever AI tools, set of parameters have been set in order to filter this person.

[00:08:58] And I feel like that becomes an extraordinarily artificial and, you know, no pun intended,

[00:09:04] but it's there, right? Artificial exchange of, I'm going to use a better AI tool to describe me

[00:09:12] than you have, than somebody else. And as a result, I will get through as a candidate.

[00:09:16] I appreciate that your ability to write, that's a proxy for your ability to write a good resume too.

[00:09:22] And yet the increased artificiality of that interaction strikes me as just heading in the

[00:09:31] wrong direction. And yes, I appreciate, I don't have a good answer for how to recruit at scale,

[00:09:36] except to start to ask the question, why is that the problem that so many organizations are facing?

[00:09:42] Why is it that there is so much, and this I think is the more fundamental question,

[00:09:47] why is so much of the workforce on the move looking for another job? And why are so many

[00:09:53] organizations struggling to filter through this wave of people moving? The use of AI to supplement your

[00:10:01] recruitment team's capabilities is understandable and reasonable. I'm not critical of that.

[00:10:07] And the use of AI to connect to those things is becoming inevitable. But again, why is so much

[00:10:14] of the workforce moving? What's going on? How are organizations managing recruitment and retention

[00:10:18] to keep people rather than seeing these just great tidal waves of people moving backwards and forwards

[00:10:23] and using tools to attempt to connect to a potential future recruiter?

[00:10:28] Well, you know, I wonder if part of that is the workers perception. I mean, for all the talk about AI that

[00:10:35] we've heard in the last couple of years, I haven't heard any job seeker say that the process has gotten

[00:10:41] better for them. No, it's not. You know, I agree. I think it feels like you're, you're guessing what the

[00:10:51] answers should be. It's like you're trying, you know, you're doing some kind of IQ test where you're not

[00:10:56] really sure what the question was going to be. You don't really understand it and you're not sure

[00:10:59] what they're looking for. So you're guessing. And that's, again, I think maybe that's a function.

[00:11:05] I know, Mark, I don't know what you think about this. Maybe that's a function of the fact that the AI

[00:11:09] recruitment tools need to continue to develop more. Perhaps as they get better, we'll see a more

[00:11:15] natural interaction. But right now it feels like from a, you know, the sort of the side that's trying

[00:11:23] to go find that job, right? The applicant side, it feels like it's a very difficult process to get

[00:11:30] any sense of, am I, am I doing it? This is a job that's great for me. And yet, do I have any chance

[00:11:35] of even getting an interview? Hi there. I'm Peter Zollman. I'm a co-host of the Inside Job Boards and

[00:11:42] Recruitment Marketplaces podcast. And I'm Steven Rothberg. And I guess that makes me the other co-host.

[00:11:47] Every other week, we're joined by guests from the world's leading job sites.

[00:11:51] Together, we analyze news about general niche and aggregator job board and Recruitment Marketplaces

[00:11:57] sites. Make sure you sign up and subscribe today.

[00:12:02] Hi, I'm Steven Rothberg. And I'm Jeanette Leeds.

[00:12:05] And together, we're the co-hosts of the High Volume Hiring Podcast.

[00:12:09] Are you involved in hiring dozens or even hundreds of employees a year? If so,

[00:12:13] you know that the typical sourcing tools, tactics, and strategies, they just don't scale.

[00:12:18] Yeah. Our bi-weekly podcast features news, tips, case studies, and interviews with the world's

[00:12:24] leading experts about the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to high volume hiring.

[00:12:30] Make sure to subscribe today.

[00:12:33] What's your reaction to the idea of this is leveling the playing field between job seekers and employers?

[00:12:42] Again, you know, I agree.

[00:12:45] But my question is, you're leveling the play field, but what's the game you're playing?

[00:12:49] Like, yes, I think we're all, we've now both got sets of AI tools, you know, and again,

[00:12:55] one presumes that the sort of the applicant AI tools will continue to develop.

[00:12:59] The applicant tools will continue to develop in such a way as they can help you more quickly apply for job to more jobs

[00:13:07] to make you look more appealing to a potential employer.

[00:13:11] The AI, you know, recruitment tools will continue to develop in that they'll get smarter and smarter at filtering

[00:13:17] and looking for things that, you know, one imagines at some point fairly quickly,

[00:13:21] they'll start to look for signals that the applicant is using AI to apply to help filter them out.

[00:13:28] So, yeah, it's, you're back to an arms race of whose AI is going to be the best at fooling the other person.

[00:13:35] And again, is that really the direction we're headed?

[00:13:38] Yes, it's leveling the playing field, but what playing field and what game and what's the objective of winning in this?

[00:13:45] Well, and if it's leveling the playing field based on numbers alone, you know, that's not necessarily a good thing.

[00:13:52] It sounds like that could create a lot of churn.

[00:13:54] It does. And, you know, we haven't even touched on the point that all of this assumes that both sides are acting in good faith.

[00:14:05] So it assumes that the AI tool that I'm employing to go get me a job, I'm feeding it with accurate information or that it is actually being truthful about me.

[00:14:16] And it presumes, of course, on the recruitment side that there's a real job and that they're really looking for the things that they say there are.

[00:14:22] And so once you start to go, well, actually, we already know that there's fake jobs out there that, you know, people are using just to gather information.

[00:14:32] And we know that from, you know, whether it's competitive intelligence or just, you know, for other scams.

[00:14:37] And we definitely know that there are pseudo applicants who are out there who are going, who are applying for jobs.

[00:14:45] They don't have skills they don't have or they're simply doing so in order to appear to be looking for jobs for other reasons.

[00:14:53] That all just escalates and goes faster because now it's automation.

[00:14:57] One thing, what does automation do? It always makes things go faster.

[00:15:00] It doesn't. It makes the worst. The bad things go just as fast as the good things.

[00:15:04] It makes the bad things just as capable as the good things.

[00:15:08] So, you know, as that expression is, it's technologies is it's it's it's neither good nor bad, but it is also never neutral.

[00:15:16] Right. This will be used both sides for good and bad, which means it'll just go faster and just become more difficult.

[00:15:21] And I feel like that's that's the path we're headed down with this.

[00:15:25] Well, let me let me go back to the idea of good faith.

[00:15:29] I think there's a lot of job seekers out there who would argue that employers aren't necessarily operating in good faith.

[00:15:34] They're posting dummy jobs to gather resumes there.

[00:15:40] They're replying to applications within seconds, you know, turning somebody down.

[00:15:47] So they really have a screen.

[00:15:50] They're ghosting.

[00:15:51] You know, they just stop returning an applicant's calls.

[00:15:57] You know, so it's understandable that a lot of candidates would go for something like this that.

[00:16:02] In theory, would make their lives easier.

[00:16:06] Because why not have their life benefit from automation in the same way employers do?

[00:16:15] I mean, I suppose that argument may be true, but, you know, is it is it healthy?

[00:16:21] Yeah.

[00:16:21] And that's the point, right, is I again, I don't blame.

[00:16:25] I don't judge either side for using the technology.

[00:16:29] Of course, you know, from, you know, I know recruiters.

[00:16:32] They are relentlessly overworked.

[00:16:34] They have too many jobs to go fill.

[00:16:36] They usually have too little information from the hiring managers.

[00:16:38] They're desperately trying to figure out how to find.

[00:16:40] They're under the gun.

[00:16:41] They have metrics that are just how many, you know, job roles can you fill this quarter?

[00:16:46] If you're not filling enough, you're out looking for another job, right?

[00:16:48] And at the same time, you've got applicants who are looking for another job, either because they're out of work right now or they're simply looking to change.

[00:16:56] They don't, you know, they want to improve, build their career, find a better place to call work home.

[00:17:03] So obviously, both sides are going to use every tool at their disposal.

[00:17:06] But again, it's the case of even with good faith, the experience is going to become less human, more automated.

[00:17:16] And it already feels pretty ugly.

[00:17:18] It already, you know, to your point, absolutely.

[00:17:21] The experience is often you either you can apply for a job which would appear to have been custom written for you as an enemy.

[00:17:27] Like this is exactly my background, exactly what I've done.

[00:17:30] And you never hear anything or you hear anything, if you hear something, you know, it can be months later.

[00:17:34] I know of one lady who applied for a job and she she didn't hear for I think it was like six months, seven months until they said, oh, yes, we're actually interested in you.

[00:17:46] And you go, well, that's a pretty terrible recruiting experience, even if you then subsequently get the job.

[00:17:53] So, you know, it can feel extremely impersonal.

[00:17:57] I agree the whole sort of no thanks, you know, thanks, but no thanks messages.

[00:18:02] You get an email.

[00:18:02] It rarely give you any indication of why you weren't considered.

[00:18:08] And then, yes, you can you can go down a lot of conversations, a lot of a lot of the sort of down the road and then simply disappear.

[00:18:17] The people, you know, the job just vanishes.

[00:18:19] You never get an answer back.

[00:18:20] So it's already a pretty ugly process, I think, for reasons of scale and pressure and acceleration of business.

[00:18:27] I just feel like making it leveling that playing field and making it less human is not going to improve anyone's experience.

[00:18:34] And I think both sides are going to come at this increasingly cynically, seeing that the other side is using tools to automate and obfuscate the process.

[00:18:43] And I think that is going to make this more adversarial, less human.

[00:18:49] And I think by the time you actually finally get a job offer, you're going to feel like you've already been mugged four times.

[00:18:56] Well, and this is an early on application.

[00:18:59] In order to use it, you have to know Python.

[00:19:01] This is a couple of steps you need to take into Python.

[00:19:05] But there are reportedly some folks who are developing a version that doesn't require coding or doesn't require programming knowledge.

[00:19:14] In other words, it'll be a consumer style interface.

[00:19:17] So anybody could use it off the shelf.

[00:19:19] I mean, that's just kind of like throwing gas on the fire, I think.

[00:19:23] And again, it's inevitable.

[00:19:25] It's absolutely inevitable.

[00:19:26] It's probably a great business opportunity.

[00:19:28] Go build an app that will, you know, I never need to lift a finger.

[00:19:32] It'll simply sit there and find me my next job.

[00:19:34] The fact that it has gone through and applied for 3,000 jobs in the meantime that I wasn't even aware of, you know, starts to make you.

[00:19:43] I mean, it makes sense from the point of view of going to build the tool.

[00:19:46] I just question what either side is going to get out of that.

[00:19:49] The applicant is going to be, you know, you're really not engaged in finding your next job.

[00:19:54] And the recruiters are going to get people who appear to be a great fit, who may not even know they're applying for a job with that company.

[00:20:00] In fact, probably won't know that they're applying for a job with that company.

[00:20:04] So, you know, that first question of what do you know about us is going to become very, very apposite because the answer is probably going to be, I don't know, I've never heard of you before.

[00:20:11] I didn't even know I'd applied for this job.

[00:20:13] So what's it about?

[00:20:14] I mean, that doesn't feel like that's headed in the right direction at all.

[00:20:18] Well, you do kind of hope that folks would keep track of what the app is applying to, you know, so they're ready for it.

[00:20:25] You would.

[00:20:27] You're more of an optimist than I am.

[00:20:30] I don't know.

[00:20:30] I mean, I assumed employers would do a lot of things with AI too.

[00:20:36] So, well, so where does this go?

[00:20:40] I mean, if you've got this kind of product and let's say, let's assume that it starts to grow as more versions come out and more people hear about it.

[00:20:51] How does this impact the whole process and how does it impact the folks in talent acquisition?

[00:20:58] Yeah.

[00:20:58] Well, I mean, it doesn't make their lives any easier at all.

[00:21:02] Again, they're already overwhelmed.

[00:21:04] That's why they're using these tools to help filter and rank resume.

[00:21:07] I mean, they're already overwhelmed.

[00:21:09] Now that just means they're dealing with a situation in which the person they're talking to may not be a person at all.

[00:21:14] It might be some AI bot that's happily chatting away with them.

[00:21:17] I mean, literally, maybe actually chatting away with them online in order to set up an interview before the human actually gets involved.

[00:21:23] So I don't think that's going to help either side particularly.

[00:21:27] I think what it asks fundamentally of all of us is, is there a better way of doing this?

[00:21:34] We know there's a lot of people who look for jobs.

[00:21:37] We know there's jobs out there.

[00:21:39] Are there better approaches to matching those two things than this sort of spray and pray approach of applying for jobs that's simply getting accelerated with automation and AI

[00:21:50] and the process of putting in what can often feel like extraordinarily arbitrary filters to reduce and rank the people coming in?

[00:21:59] And I think there are glimmers of hope here.

[00:22:03] There are glimmers of hope that we start to think about, well, is it possible to start to build central repositories of experience and skills that are actually manageable,

[00:22:13] that are actually trust reliable, right?

[00:22:15] Does public ledger technology start to open the door to actually building this is what I did and this is how I did it and here's a taxonomy,

[00:22:24] you know, connects to taxonomies.

[00:22:25] We're a long way off from this.

[00:22:27] But are the ways of building a knowledge base of workforce such that employers and employees can reliably trust each other to do a match that actually says,

[00:22:35] actually, I think you're great for this job.

[00:22:37] It sounds like you've done exactly the right things at companies just like us.

[00:22:40] Would you be interested?

[00:22:41] As opposed to, you know, here's the barriers over which you must leap to get even to talk to a human being.

[00:22:48] Meanwhile, I'm automating the process of, you know, leaping over those barriers with a piece of software.

[00:22:54] Well, so in your mind, you know, if you were king, what would the ideal hiring process look like?

[00:23:02] How would it work from start to finish?

[00:23:06] First of all, I would never want to be the king.

[00:23:07] I'm not a great monarchist, despite my accent.

[00:23:10] So please take that one back.

[00:23:12] I think, you know, I think what would the ideal hiring process look like?

[00:23:16] I think the ideal hiring process would be, first of all, that recruiters generally get more support and help in the process, right?

[00:23:24] That they're assumed, they're often treated just to sort of go bring people in and make sure they're the right people, right?

[00:23:30] And figure that out yourself.

[00:23:31] I think businesses need to get better at understanding how to recruit.

[00:23:34] And that means often focusing less on the arbitrary list of things that you must have before we'd even talk to you and much better at the sort of list of things that we actually believe are important to us as an organization.

[00:23:47] Does it actually matter if I've had five years experience?

[00:23:50] Or does it really matter whether I've had any, you know, what's the experience that I care about?

[00:23:54] What are the characteristics of this person that I'm looking for?

[00:23:57] To recruit and entice the right people, not act as barriers and blockers to fill those people out.

[00:24:02] And I think the process needs to get to a place where it's much easier to connect the right people with the job at the right time.

[00:24:13] So, again, it's helping to build out agreed approaches to defining skills and experience such that we can know when we're talking to somebody that's really what they have.

[00:24:24] And the process should be much, again, much more human.

[00:24:27] It should be less about, look, I can do this job.

[00:24:30] I've done this job for 10 years, 20 years, whatever it is.

[00:24:35] That's understood.

[00:24:36] Let's get to the important stuff, which is when you work with me day in, day out, how do I work?

[00:24:40] What's it like?

[00:24:41] What's my behaviors like as a person within an organization?

[00:24:44] How do I fit within your culture?

[00:24:46] I honestly, I know your sense is that's a later conversation.

[00:24:50] I think that's the conversation.

[00:24:52] I think a lot of this is you can learn, you know, with the exception of maybe going to be a thoracic surgeon, you can probably learn most things pretty quickly.

[00:25:00] The question is, do you do them in the right way that is successful for the rest of the business without putting a tax on everybody else around you?

[00:25:07] I feel like that the human questions here are the ones that are most important.

[00:25:11] So the quicker we can get past the do you have this qualification?

[00:25:15] Have you done this job before?

[00:25:16] What size business did you work for?

[00:25:18] All those other things is get rid of that and really focus in on the how do you do this?

[00:25:22] What's your thought processes?

[00:25:24] What's the approach you take?

[00:25:25] How do you work with other people?

[00:25:27] And understand the human aspects.

[00:25:28] Because those are the things that kill companies, not the skill set.

[00:25:31] You're going to have great, and we all know this, you're going to have great people with great skills that because of how they operate are disasters for a business.

[00:25:39] Let's try and filter that stuff out.

[00:25:42] So are there things that the developers of ATSs should be thinking about if this is getting out there?

[00:25:52] For this, yeah.

[00:25:54] Again, my sense is going to be, you know, we're already looking at, I mean, let's be honest, this is essentially sort of almost deep faking the interview process, right?

[00:26:04] This is how do I make it appear that I am thoroughly engaged in, you're the one company I really want to work for, whereas in fact I've just applied for 3,000 other jobs.

[00:26:14] At the same time, the same technology is developing to identify when things are propagated, created, generated, and produced by artificial intelligence.

[00:26:26] And that's going to have to happen at the recruiter side too, because they're going to want to know that you didn't really apply for this job, that you may not have truthfully answered those questions.

[00:26:36] So at this point, you start to looking for what are the signals that would indicate that this person is simply bulk applying for, you know, thousands of jobs using an AI admin tool that's essentially a bot that's just flooding the net.

[00:26:50] That can happen, right?

[00:26:52] I mean, that can happen using existing technology.

[00:26:55] It's quite possible for companies to start to, you know, you could simply say, is everybody seeing the same set of applicants from the same person?

[00:27:03] Are we seeing this in the same industries?

[00:27:04] Those sort of things.

[00:27:06] But yeah, that's going to have to happen too, is they're going to have to start and they're going to want to start thinking about how do I filter that stuff out?

[00:27:13] Because chances are you don't want to be wasting time trying to set up interviews with somebody that doesn't know that they've applied for a job with you, because they may not be interested.

[00:27:22] They may have already taken a job somewhere else.

[00:27:24] They may not even be looking for a job.

[00:27:25] You may have these things simply running constantly in the background, trawling to see if there's something that's interesting out there.

[00:27:30] Don't think that's an ideal situation for recruiters by any stretch of the imagination.

[00:27:35] No, that's a good point.

[00:27:37] Well, Jeff, thanks very much.

[00:27:39] It's always good to talk with you, and I know we'll talk again.

[00:27:43] Absolutely.

[00:27:43] Thanks, Mike.

[00:27:43] I always appreciate a chance to chat with you.

[00:27:45] And it's always interesting stuff.

[00:27:47] It's never a dull moment.

[00:27:48] So yeah, thank you for this.

[00:28:01] My guest today has been Jeff Webb, contributing analyst to 360 Insights and author of the new book, Center the Pendulum.

[00:28:09] And this has been People Tech, the podcast of WorkforceAI.news.

[00:28:14] We're also a part of the Work Defined Podcast Network.

[00:28:17] Find them at www.wrkdefined.com.

[00:28:24] And to keep up with AI technology and HR, subscribe to Workforce AI today.

[00:28:29] We're the most trusted source of news in the HR tech industry.

[00:28:33] Find us at www.workforceai.news.

[00:28:38] I'm Mark Pfeffer.

[00:28:40] Thank you.

[00:28:40] Thank you.