Train Comfortably, Adapt Confidently, and Perform Consistently with Tom Regal

[00:00:00] All right, another Metta Performance Podcast. I haven't done one in a while, so I'm excited to be back on. How's it going, Coach Seiler? It's going well. I'm looking forward to today's conversation. It's going to be a good mix of things. Yeah, it'll be a good mix of things. And then as we talk about getting near, so we'll talk about some coaching and then some bike fitting, and then I'll have nothing good to add in the bike fitting. I'm the worst. I just dial it in. And I'm stoked to have Tom Regal here. How are you?

[00:00:30] I'm wonderful. Thanks for having me on. Looking forward to talking with you guys. Before we get to the speed round, why don't we – I've had the pleasure, actually, of going out not too many weeks ago. We went to one of my favorite restaurants in the planet. I should stop advertising for him because it'll be harder to just eat. South of Nashville is Fox and Locke outside of Franklin and Leaper's Fork. And so we went there for the evening. And your background is more interesting than I thought. Don't take that as it was not interesting.

[00:01:00] But give us your background because it's really interesting how you ended up where you are now. Yeah, I've done a lot of different things. But yeah, I spent 30-plus years in the entertainment industry. I was originally as a musician and then recording engineer in the music side of things, but then ended up on a path into post-production sound, specializing in restoration and preservation, which was kind of like when the doors open, you just follow them, right?

[00:01:27] You just go from one thing to the next. It turns out to be something I was good at and then became very passionate about. So I did a lot of time in Hollywood. I lived out in California where the business was. That's where I kind of had to go. And yeah, I did a ton of stuff, worked for studios, worked on a lot of really great films. And we were doing it originally for VHS and Laserdisc, right? So it was way before it was cool.

[00:01:51] And then ended up getting picked up and tapped by Universal Studios to build a restoration facility and department for them right at the start of DVDs. So for the home entertainment end of things, they were gearing up for that. I was working for a smaller company and we worked on a big project for, I think the project was the, I'm going to blank on the director's name now. Anyway, I get back to that, but we worked on a big project and then I got tapped to build this facility and do this for them for the next, I think, 12 years.

[00:02:20] We were just cranking out all these great films. My clients were Universal, of course, because I worked for them, but Warner Brothers and Sony, so the three biggest catalogs in Hollywood. We worked on all their films for home theater release, plus all the languages. So a lot of really great films. Saw some absolutely horrible films as well. In all the languages. Every language you can imagine when we went through all of that. So that was great. That would have to be the worst part, Tom. Wouldn't it be like seeing a great film and having to watch it again and again to put it in a different language?

[00:02:50] Awesome. When you know it's going to be bad and you're like, I get to see it again. Again. Yes. And then, yeah, it was, and then we'd screen some, sometimes we'd have to screen the final things, you know, as if they were putting it back out on film. So we'd have to sit in a darkened theater watching it, like, and trying to stay awake on like, we're QC-ing this. It needs to, you know, we need to make sure we don't, we don't have any issues. And yeah, so unfortunately my wife these days wants to go to the movie theaters and I don't want to be in the dark room ever again. And I'm like, I have a hard time watching TV.

[00:03:19] I have a hard time watching anything because I just don't want to sit in a dark room and stare. And it would take us 40 hours to work on a feature, just the audio side of it. And then we would spend another day or two or on the bigger features, maybe a week in the theater working on, you know, the final mix of the film, the picture side of it as well. So, I mean, it was like, we were just inching through this thing, like piece by piece by piece by bit by bit. It was just, it could be painful.

[00:03:45] So in between all of that, I found myself very overweight, out of shape, just sitting there. Like, I think I was around 30 years old and going up a flight of stairs was one of those things where you start breathing heavy. And I'm like, this doesn't seem right. Cause like, I'm not old, right? I'm 30. And we'd go to doctors and they were like, well, you just can't do the things you used to be able to do. You're getting older. I'm like, that doesn't know. It doesn't make any sense to me. Feeding us sugary drinks to keep us going.

[00:04:15] And, you know, we just got fat and, you know, out of shape. So I started, I started back to cycling because I loved cycling as a kid and really started, you know, got a bike and started cycling again and going through all of that. And then wanted to get into triathlon because I had, you know, I'd seen the Ironman. I'd seen, you know, the, you know, well, well, the sports, I'd seen all of that stuff. So it was like, I signed myself up for a sprint, a sprint triathlon and, um, and got hooked, absolutely hooked.

[00:04:41] And, um, and from there we, we helped create a corporate team and, you know, started coaching people and going through. So the next 25 years or so has just been working as a, you know, it was like two lives running simultaneously side by side where I'd be training and I'd be working in a corporate side and doing all of that. And then eventually in 2017, I just, I burned out and, uh, and was able to make the switch to, you know, bike fitting full time and coaching full time.

[00:05:06] Um, and then I was able to leave California and move out and move back to, you know, originally from the East coast. So it was a little bit, a little bit more of, of the area we wanted to be in, ended up in, uh, in Franklin, Tennessee and loving it, loving life. So it's been, it's been a journey. It's been lots of crazy things. That's cool. So, yeah, it's always cool to hear. I mean, the journeys are always, you know, interesting. And I, I do think, I mean, the coaches who've come from triathlon, but I think when you've got that other perspective,

[00:05:35] I think it helps when you coach, cause you understand that they've got, you know, this other thing sitting on the side, you know, that can dictate schedule and time and pressure. Completely. The whole family side of things. Like, so I was in a sense coaching cause I was leading teams. I had, I think at most, uh, 60, 65 people I was responsible for not all direct reports, but you know, that was the largest groups I had for an, and a couple of different companies I worked for.

[00:06:01] And, uh, yeah, being able to sit back and watch my style of, of leadership is to, you know, someone had, someone had described it best as I said, you lead from behind. So I, I don't step up and try to take all the glory, hire some really smart people around me and then really help them step up. Let them take the credit for the work that they're doing when they do that part of it. So developing people was, was a passion of mine. And then I had some good, I had some good bosses. I had some terrible bosses as well.

[00:06:31] And I pick up a lot from that and just be like, let's, let's not do that. Didn't like that, you know, or this is really good. So I'd be picking up things on that. And I had a couple of good mentors along the way as well that, you know, kind of helped me in that. So that, that helped my coaching side for sure.

[00:06:46] And, and definitely I'm more about my philosophy side is the, you know, the metaphysical side of it, the thought process, the mental process, reacting, responding, not reacting to things, keeping a positive mindset or at least a realistic mindset. I used to have a sign up in my office that said no whinging and carping and, and, and people would come into my office. I mean, we did restoration of sound. So we were always dealing with problems, right? That was our business.

[00:07:15] And I'd have one of my, one of my staff would come in and they'd say, we got this problem. It's blah, blah, blah. I was like, nope, nope. We can't start that way. We have a challenge. Our clients have a problem. If they have, if they don't have problems, we don't have a job. So for us, we're in the problem solving business. So yeah, we have a challenge. They have a problem. We're going to help fix their problem. And I would make them step out of the office and step back in and start over again. And in the beginning, they thought that was like kind of crazy. But it switched everybody.

[00:07:44] It switched everybody completely to them to just go like, you know, you're right. Like, like you'd get guys who were like, ah, this sounds horrible. And, you know, what we were saying earlier, it was just, we're listening to some horrible stuff. Like some of it's in really bad shape. Some of the movies were terrible movies. And we just had to kind of focus through that and just go like, but what are we trying to solve here? We're trying to make it sound as best as we possibly can. And we had the tools. We were at the cutting edge of sound restoration.

[00:08:11] We were creating the policies and procedures at that point in time. So we were writing the book on it. So it was that, it's just keeping that positive mindset. The thing I love about that anecdote, a couple, a couple of things, our leadership philosophy sounds very similar. I used to say, hire smart, motivated people, point them in the right direction and then get the hell out of their way. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's totally it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:38] But the other thing just about, because I do a lot of just in the mindset coaching work I do, you know, what you hit at is that the words we use matter, whether they're the words in our head or the words we actually speak matter. And just that quick reframe of, no, we don't have a problem. They have the problem. We've solved problems. It's a challenge for us. Yeah. Go back and reframe that. And it does make that switch and it takes a little bit, but I love that example.

[00:09:06] You have to be, you have to be very thoughtful about it. So I grew up, my dad was extremely pessimistic about, about everything. And he could make a compliment, a negative really quickly where he'd be, you know, he'd walk in the room and he's like, that's a nice lamp. And I'm just like, what do you mean by that? It was just not, I was just complimenting you in a nice lamp. I'm like, no, you didn't. Yeah. And I'm like, you were, that was a dig, right? So I was very sensitive to that growing up because I got that a lot.

[00:09:36] Once again, I made a note saying like, I don't like that. Like, so I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do that. And I grew up in New York and upstate New York, but the New York mentality is, you know, sounds a little harsh to everybody. Like we, we, we joke about that. You were in a tough room because they would, they would give you no quarter for anything. And when I started looking back on it, it was like, that's really pessimistic and really kind of negative thinking. And it holds you back. So yeah, that's what kind of started that journey going through.

[00:10:04] And then watching other people respond was like, it is working. Okay, good. But, you know, and it was like, it helped me kind of reframe my own mind to help them. So that, that definitely, that builds, but you have to work at it. You really have to think about it. You have to consistently work at it. And consistent is the, is the big, is the big thing. Yeah, for sure. Well, let me, before we dive into how you apply that to coaching, I always like to do the speed round of questions. So really important questions.

[00:10:33] Are you a coffee or tea person, Tom? Oh, coffee. A hundred percent coffee. The follow-up usually is, are you a coffee snob or are you just coffee? You know, I've, I like good coffee and, and I've got a good story to how I got into coffee because I didn't drink coffee growing up. In fact, until I met my, my at the time soon to be wife, I didn't drink coffee at all until I found good coffee. And it happened to be in Italy is where I found good coffee. And like, I realized I liked dark roast coffee. So I kind of became addicted to coffee after that.

[00:11:03] She created a monster. Sure. But I've found that the coffee is important, but not by itself. That I can have bad coffee with good conversation. And that makes it good coffee. So that's, that's kind of the environment adds to the coffee. We used to go, used to go up Angeles Crest highway, originally on motorcycles and then on bikes. Cause there was a little cafe up at the top, like our halfway up. We'd go up there.

[00:11:29] It was horrible coffee and a little styrofoam cup, but in an Alpine setting on a mountain on an early Saturday morning. It was fantastic. When you're sitting around with a few other people and you're just sipping a warm cup of coffee and it was a little chill in the air and you're just kind of like, it was fantastic coffee. Yeah. So that's a good idea. Would I brew that at home? Would I brew that at home? No. You know, not going to happen. So, so yeah, I do like really, really, I appreciate really good coffee, but it's not a necessity.

[00:11:57] The people in the environment certainly, certainly helps that. Uh, your favorite race you've ever been to. Wow. That's a tough one. That's a tough one that I've raced myself or, or take either one. There's no right answer here. Don't. Yeah. I mean, maybe there's a wrong one, Tom, but there's my, my favorite race. Like I've done a lot of really fun. Like I have, I have probably two that are my favorite. Uh, I love, I love Lake Placid.

[00:12:25] So the Lake Placid Ironman, just the environment. The race is super challenging. That was the first Ironman I ever did. I love that race. It kicks my butt every time, but I love that race. And then my, my pie in the sky race that I, that I finally got to do was Ultraman world championships in Hawaii. So racing in Hawaii is just fantastic. And I was never focused on Ironman. You know, Hawaii, I've, I was always focused on, on Ultraman for some reason.

[00:12:53] I've, I've found it years and years ago and been following it ever since and, and was able to get myself there and, and raced it twice. And that's like, it's just, that's just epic from a spiritual level for me that, that was the pinnacle. So those are like two. And then there's a whole host of like, I don't know, hundreds of other sprints and Olympic distance and stuff. So I love them. I love them all, but those are probably the top two. If you have a weekend away, would you want a posh weekend at a resort or go out camping in the woods?

[00:13:23] I'd probably like to be camping in the woods, but I really love my wife and I want to stay married. So we end up probably someplace more. I know I should probably start rephrasing that. Your, your, your wife is gone at a girl's weekend away. Now you have a weekend alone. Now I'm, now I'm camping. Okay. I was just last, I just, this just past weekend. I was, I wasn't camping so much as I was staying in a cabin down in, down in Dunlop, Tennessee to do a race. And it was, it was very nice.

[00:13:50] It was very comfortable, but it was in the woods and it was quiet and it was a creek running by. And that, that to me being, being outdoors, seeing natural light is that's, that's the most important thing to me. So I could be in a posh resort as long as I could get outside as much as possible. So what's the best, what's the biggest or most famous or your favorite movie to have ever worked on? So I worked on the Stanley Kubrick collection. That was the name I was trying to remember before that was, so I did five of his films

[00:14:18] and we worked on them over a period of two years. We dove into all of his films to a level that you shouldn't, we were working with the estate and, and, and that whole series, The Shining is probably one of my ultimate favorites because the soundtrack of Georgi Ligeti, the, the Hungarian composer is just absolutely mind boggling how it was, how it was used in the film. So that's, that's one of my ultimate favorites.

[00:14:46] And then, and then having worked on the original All Quiet on the Western Front with, from the original nitrate lavender film elements from the Library of Congress was pretty epic for me. That was an amazing, an amazing film, how they did that back in 1933 or whatever year it was. And, and, and the sound that they were able to capture and do all of that. Those are probably my, you know, a couple of my top, my top highlights of my career. Okay.

[00:15:12] And the most important question, Tom, are you a crunchy or creamy peanut butter person? Oh, creamy, creamy, salted, creamy. Absolutely. Salted, creamy. Salted, creamy. It's got a little salt in there. Just, just a little bit of that. Okay. For, for sure. Yeah. Crunchy. Like, I don't know. I'd just take a handful of peanuts is that that's, that's crunchy peanut butter. Like if I want to smear it on a bagel, it's going to be creamy. The best part of that question is most people don't answer it. They then go on to defend their position. Like why?

[00:15:42] Like it's very divisive. I can imagine. I can imagine that. It's great. So with your history and starting with that, those groups in California and then moving and starting your own coaching business, what are the top couple of things, you know, where you lean into coaching? And this is where we dive into coaching and your philosophy that you kind of aspire when you're first talking to athletes and how you kind of get them going in the right direction. Yeah. My, my initial conversation with athletes, I think when I got, when I get started, it's

[00:16:11] one of those things where you, you're trying to get started and you end up taking on a whole bunch of athletes or as, you know, as many as you can handle because you need to make some money and you're still trying to sort out what your coaching style is. What, you know, kind of sorted out like athletes that I want to work with, don't want to work with. I was taking athletes on as a short, like three months to a, to a sprint race or Olympic race, even, you know, like pretty much you're almost, I won't say I was taking anybody on, but certainly was, you know, was, was trying to get my foot, my foothold in the business.

[00:16:41] And, uh, and then really narrowed down the athletes, the type of athletes that I want to work with. And, and I really focus on not so much the event, the goal, the outcome, but certainly the journey. And I really stress the fact of the person that you become in that, you know, in that journey. So I always, you know, one of my favorite books is, uh, Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance with, you know, about, about, it's not, it's not the top of the mountain that you're

[00:17:10] getting to, but it's, it's the sides of the mountain, right? You're getting through that. So, so I always focus more on the mental side of things and how you're dealing with stress, how you're dealing with life stress, dealing with family, dealing with work, things that are thrown at you. And how do we balance that? Cause there's no real balance to everything. It's like, if you're really focused on something, you're going to have to tip the scales one way. So how do we, how do we find the focus that you can, that you can pursue the goal

[00:17:37] that you want and make the sacrifices that you need to make and make the choices you need to make and then get everybody else on board with your support team and your family and all that. And if you don't have that support, then I try to talk you out of it. If you don't have any family support, then I don't know if I want to coach you because I don't know we're going to be able to get there. And I'm also not about just checking the boxes. Like everything needs to be green. All my workouts need to be done regardless.

[00:18:04] Like it's like, if you want a program, if you just want a 20 week or 40 week program, then download it off of, off of the web. They're free. Save yourself the time and money. I give you three weeks at a time, sometimes only two weeks at a time based on how you're doing. And then like my athlete this weekend was asking, it's like, so what does it look like after that? I'm like, well, it depends on how you're doing. Like, how are you feeling? What are we, what are we coming back at? How are we kind of going through that, that thing?

[00:18:31] And then I can program out the next couple of, couple of weeks and then maybe we'll get three weeks out. Rarely do I give you any more than that because then I end up having to go in and change it. So, and that's more work. I'd rather be looking at what you're doing and, and then just kind of going through. So there's a lot of communication that needs to happen. And then I become really, really, you know, kind of involved in your, in your training. And I, and I love watching someone grow. When I get the athletes, they're really like, you know, they're, they're, they're buying into the program. They're responding.

[00:19:01] They're giving lots of good communication. And then we can kind of build a program and then they see the process. They see it actually succeed. Then they become more excited. Then they, they hit goals and milestones, you know, all of that. But I still come back to telling people it's not the goal. Cause if you related to, you know, holidays, like I always say Christmas day was everyone gets so worked up about Christmas and as a holiday. If you, if you celebrate Christmas, you've got months of like holiday hype hype going through.

[00:19:31] And then the day comes and the day after it's over and we go back to normal. I was like, but, but you missed the whole process. You just ran through and checked a bunch of boxes of all things that you needed to do that were holiday related. And then you had the, you had the download afterwards and you get depressed and the post seasonal, you know, irritability and everything else that comes along with it. So the same thing happens with events. They could be big events, you know, or small events. But if you put that much on that one day, like you're missing everything in between.

[00:20:00] You don't see what, what changes you're going through physically and mentally, the changes you're going through. And I love watching people make those changes. Part of what I did at Universal was I got connected with another, became a friend of mine that was, had started a corporate tri team. It had about six or seven people. So I joined him and co-captained it and we grew it to about 300. We had people on the East coast, West coast.

[00:20:26] And we got to work with people in the studio that we would never see. Like I'm in post-production film side. I'm one part of the lot. I was working with gaffers and electricians and set design and all these other people that were having the same hobby, but in different lives of us. So we would never bump into each other on that. And I watched them lose weight, like hundreds of pounds of weight, eating better, changing their lives, having their families come to the race at the, at the end of the season that

[00:20:54] they were priming themselves for, which was our Malibu triathlon was the big one in September. We trained and, and, and kind of focused on and then seeing the families and the joy in the families. And the fact that I'm doing this goal just absolutely just gave me so much energy. And that's what my driving force was. And I started leaning more towards the coaching side of that. But then I was also incorporating that into my leadership of my teams and things that I had. So I was, that's, I just feed off of that energy of watching people just change their lives

[00:21:23] and do things they never thought that they could do. Um, if it's running a 5k, I mean, it's like, it doesn't have to be a, you know, an Ironman. It doesn't have to be an Ultraman. It can be just getting off the couch and going for a walk. I mean, and, and, and some people have different stories and, and, and I'm fascinated by all. I find it actually more, uh, I find it more rewarding when you've got people that are kind of starting from nothing and they go. Yeah. I also find it as an athlete who's been doing this, we'll just say a long time.

[00:21:51] I, I find it energizing because the, the passion of getting these goals, you forget how blessed we are sometimes to do it over a long period of time. And like the things you can make yourself do over a period of time, the bar gets higher naturally. Right. But you forget like how stoked they are to go do something. And you're like, why am I not, you know, sometimes you're in that block, especially kind of spring in this time of year where like it's work. Cause you know, you've got goals, but you forget like how freaking lucky I am and I need to

[00:22:21] really enjoy every time I go out thing. And they, they do bring that back. And yeah, it's weird to tell people, like I was more excited this year when a lady finished her first marathon than I had been on any of my races in the past year. Right. And I'm like watching and they're like, what are you? I'm like, this is the greatest thing ever thing. And it is, it is when you get to see them do that and make a life change. It's really cool. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, it's awesome. Yeah. I think that the, I had this mental thing.

[00:22:49] I try to get the folks I work with to think about, to get away from that goal of it's this race or it's this result and versus it being the target. It's, it's more like a compass. It's like directionally that's where we're headed. Yeah. I like that. But there's this, this plan, this journey that if we do the right things, we're going to get there. We're going to get where we want to go. Yeah.

[00:23:18] And so we, I spent a lot of time. In fact, I'm working with an athlete who's just experiencing some motivational issues right now. And so we're, we're going back and, and I'm having him rediscover his why. Nice. Yeah. Cause you know, he's stressed cause he sees the workouts, but he doesn't feel like doing them. And then you feel like if he doesn't get them to green, you know, then it's a failed workout. And I'm like, okay, let's back up. Let's figure out why we're doing this. Yep. Yep.

[00:23:48] And just using that as the anchor to go back and that's the stuff that's going to get you out of bed in the morning to do the workout versus the race you have in, you know, six months. Yeah. That initial conversation I have with any athlete is that is what you, why, you know, why do you want to do this? I ask people why they got into triathlon. Did you lose a bet? You know, was it, uh, you know, is it friends bringing you along? What, you know, what is it? You don't just trip across triathlon.

[00:24:16] Like it's, it's a, it's a, you know, it's a sport that, that has a lot to it. I mean, there's a lot to it. You, you usually have to think about it before you step into it. So yeah, they have to have a good why if they don't have a why, then yeah, I can, I don't know if I can, you know, you need to sort that out. I don't know if I want to, I can help you, you know, as a coach, it's not like you, you need that for the downtimes and there's a lot of downtimes. There's a lot of work that you put in where you're, you're at your lowest point and you

[00:24:45] have to understand your why that gets you through it. So yeah, I love that. Yeah. And I think that the journey as a whole too, I think is really important, Tom, because you know, when you race, right, you can control your time somewhat, but even then you can't control the weather. Like, well, last time I saw you, you dialed up some fine 90 degree and humid weather Nashville to race in. But yes. Yeah. I mean, I complained about rain. So you told us a little bit of rain and a ton of humidity. We turned the sun on for you. Yeah.

[00:25:14] And so you can't control that. You know, it is about the journey because, you know, whether you're chasing place or time and everyone's always chasing time, whatever their goal is, right. After you do your first one, have something, you're always chasing time. It's not in control. Like, you know, and so I think having that journey in mind is really there because you can really hit, like someone can have a really good day. And, you know, if it's not part of the journey, you know, just another step, then I think it gets difficult for them to accept that sometimes. Yeah.

[00:25:42] We just had the Chattanooga 70.3 was a few weeks ago, 90 some odd degrees. And I had two athletes that were doing, so they're doing the double. So they're doing the 70.3. And then both of them going for their first Ironman in Chattanooga in September. So this was part of it. And as I was telling them, this is your B race. This is not an A race. This is your B race because our ultimate goal is to get to September and you're going to do your first, you know, your first full Ironman distance. And swim could get canceled.

[00:26:11] It's been canceled down there a couple of times in the river. But we, they dialed up, not a cloud in the sky, 95 degree heat index, nice super duper humidity, sort of like what you were racing in Sean. That's just the beauty of our weather. And both of them, we talked about it. It was like, we don't care what your finishing time is. The idea is that you need to finish it and we need to back off our pace. We know our heart rate is going to be at least 10 beats higher. So then we need to set ourselves.

[00:26:39] And both of them got in there and actually adjusted their pace just perfectly. And they got through and both of them finished with solid finishes, not where they wanted to be time-wise or where they were hoping to be time-wise. And in cooler conditions, they were certainly capable of faster, but based on the conditions, they nailed it. Like 100% nailed it. You couldn't, like I kept telling them, you can't ask for anything better than that. You were not walking the run. Everybody else was just, you know, zombie.

[00:27:08] You were moving really well the whole time. Both of them did fantastic. So I was super, super proud of the work that they did. And, you know, they did it themselves. They held themselves within their limits. They knew what their rate of perceived exertion needed to be. And they did well. That's great. Yeah. I want to, with time, I want to pivot to the reason I wanted to get you and Michael together on here.

[00:27:35] And we'll start with the bike fitting. Both of you do a bunch of bike fitting. There you go. I'm in the industry, what's called a bike rider. I don't do any fitting. And I'm probably the worst case scenario because I've dialed myself into my numbers over the years. And so now I don't know. I'm actually scared to have somebody go look at it. But each bike I have, I fit almost exactly the same, you know, to my thing. But how, you know, what are your top couple things, Tom? And then jump in, Michael. I'm imagining I just put myself on mute for the next few minutes.

[00:28:03] As you guys talk about kind of best practices and bike fitting. And I'd add, like, if people are looking for a bike fitter, like, what are the questions you tell them to go ask? Because there are, you know, I always envision it a little bit like, you know, a doctor or something else. It's like, you know, a lot of people can do it or say they can do it. But are they, you know, are they going to be good at it? And so all of that together in one. And so if you want to kick off with, like, the best practices and what to ask. Best practice. I mean, there's a couple of different camps of fitters.

[00:28:33] And Mike, I'm sure you'll, Michael, I'm sure you'll agree with this. There's fitters that I've found in my experience. So I got into fitting because when I wanted to get back 30 years ago or whatever, 25 years ago, when I got back into cycling, I walked into a bike shop and I said, I want to buy a bike. And they looked at me, I down and said, oh, you're a size 54. And we just happened to have one. In fact, this is the bike behind me. This is the one I had. So, and I was like, I got on it and I rode it and I'm like, okay, feels like a bike.

[00:29:03] Like I rode as a kid all the time, got out, was riding and going stuff. And I'm like, this hurts. Like, this is so uncomfortable. Is this what it's supposed to be like? And someone turned me on to the fact that there's people that fit people to bikes. Like there's bike fitters out there. So I went to a bike fitter and we discovered that this was the wrong size bike for me. It's actually too small because I'm five, 10 and a half. At the time, I was almost 5'11". That was my getting to the height of my, of how tall I was ever going to be.

[00:29:31] But I have really long legs and I have a shorter torso. So I need to be on a larger bike. But when you just go straight off of height, that's, you know, it is. And when you're trying to sell bikes, that's your job, right? You're buying to sell what you have. And they were able to sell what they had. It worked fine on that. But that sent me down this path of trying to discover the geometry and the positions. And then you start different positions. And as they change the bikes, and then there's tri-bikes versus gravel versus road versus whatever. So it opened up a whole school of thought for me.

[00:30:01] So I'm more self-taught on that side of things. But I did work with Dan Enfield and went through his slow twitch training program. And that's, you know, worked with Ian Murray and Paul Swift and a few other really good bike fitters that I learned a lot from and still stay in touch with and go from that. So I'm of the school of thought of slightly unconventional. Because if you have body issues and you have fitness, where you are in your fitness tells us where we can put you on the bike.

[00:30:29] And there's other fitters that are like very numbers driven, where it's like you have to be at a particular angle for your back and your knees. And this has to be. And you get in there and you go like, okay, but this doesn't feel right. And they're like, but that's your numbers and you have to make yourself, you'll get used to it. And I don't believe that at all. I don't, I like, I'd rather take you, especially on tri-bikes when we're getting new riders in on tri-bikes.

[00:30:53] It's such a different animal that, that we, we need to two or three or four step you into a position based on your fitness. And I would just rather have a new triathlete come in and spend the first three or four years on a road bike before you, you know, learn some bike handling skills before you get onto a tri-bike. Because without bike handling skills on a tri-bike, oh my God, it's terrible. Please. It just, we have such a bad reputation. And it's because you, you get on a tri-bike, you spend most of your time on a trainer and then you go outside and you can't ride.

[00:31:22] So just go out on a, on a road bike and learn how to ride, get on a mountain bike, learn bike handling skills on a mountain bike. That's what I think so great about gravel these days is that you have to learn some bike handling skills. You know, it's, that's, I think that's the biggest challenge that I've faced is that I get a lot of new athletes, new to the sport, new to cycling. And they go out and they buy a used 10 year old or 15 year old tri-bike because it's a tri-bike on, on marketplace.

[00:31:51] And then we can't physically put them in a good position. So they're at what I call sitting at the counter, right? I'm in the aero bars, but I'm almost sitting bolt upright and that's not aero, but it's a tri-bike and you're not faster because you're not in the position on it or they're sitting upright on the bullhorns the whole time. Anyway, just a really good road bike fit will get you through 70.3. You can do a, you can do a full Ironman on it.

[00:32:12] If you're in a good position, you know, and you're efficient and that's really what we're trying to do is dial people into an efficient position based on their fitness level, their body's capabilities. I'm not judgmental when I see people in weird positions because I don't know their story. Like when I ride up behind people and I see their knees going out like this, or I see them on an angle and doing whatever it used to, it would be easy to go like, oh, that's a terrible position, you know, but you don't know what their story is.

[00:32:39] Oh yeah, I've got a replaced hip or, you know, I have a broke my spine when I was 20 or they, everybody's got the story behind it. And then being able to work with people with what their capabilities are and find that position for them and, and then grow with them. I mean, I have athletes that come back, like buy new bikes or as their fitness changes, they come back and we make more tweaks. And it's sort of like building that athlete up same, same style through that.

[00:33:05] That's amazing to me when you say that the, the, the tri bike versus road bike, cause I was on a tri bike and then probably for seven or eight years, my tri bike broke. And I just dialed in my road bike with aero bars. And actually a lot of it also has to depend where you're, what you're riding. So to your point, like I was doing, I was chasing, you know, either Swiss man or Placid or something, elevation. And I'm like, I don't need this bike.

[00:33:29] And only recently did I kind of pick up a new to me, you know, tri bike because I've been racing flatter for some of the nationals and worlds are flatter, you know, or Carolina. I'm like, okay, now I'm getting beat up. Yeah. I know I'm losing time. I would argue, I would argue if your position is right on a tri bike, a tri bike with a disc wheel and like Placid will be faster than anything else out there. So you, you'll, you won't gain an advantage on the ups, but on the downs and the flat sections and the rollers portion of it, you will be so much faster.

[00:33:59] But once again, you have to be in the, in the proper position. Yeah. And I think that's the biggest thing to your point. I think people see, you know, they get the aero bar and then they never spend time there. The other thing is, you know, it's wind tunnel tested, but they're drinking and sitting up and doing like, you're not very aero when you're drinking and stuff. And, you know, I also think there's a hybrid model that I think is interesting too. Like I was riding deep front disc back, like my road bike was pretty tri-trek'd out. Yeah.

[00:34:26] And so there's a, there's a tweener there, but to your point, I'm really stoked to hear it's, it's different for everybody. See if we get Sean back. Yeah. Lock up a little bit. When he pops back in, there's something interesting. Cause I think there's, I liked how you kind of divided into the types of fitters. Cause I think a lot of, especially new, new riders, but I find even people who've been riding for 10, 20 years. Oh, but the bike shop, they did a bike fit. And I'll say, well, describe what that was.

[00:34:54] And they're like, oh, well they checked my seat height and then they had me ride around. I'm like, that's not a bike fit. That's just a bike sizing. Yep. And then you do, to your point, you've got these people on the other end. And I mean, I think the retool technology is amazing, but they do get to where like, I have to get you within this range of, because this is what the machine tells me.

[00:35:16] And, you know, my training tells me, and I think the middle path sounds like where you kind of sit is like, I've got the technology, but I'm using my eyes. I'm listening. I'm observing. Cause I've had people call me and say, Hey, could you do a virtual fit? And I'm like, I tried it during COVID. And I finally just said, if I've worked with them before, so I've seen them on a bike.

[00:35:42] Like, yeah, I can spot check something via video, but I need you to be in the room. I need to be observing. I need to get feedback from you. It's so much better to observe and get the feedback. And then I've done a couple, a couple of virtual ones for, you know, like some friends in Hawaii or something. And it was like, I put the video up and have me look. And then I'll give you some pointers. There's this kind of like, yeah, a couple of these things, but I can't dial you in completely until I'm like, I'm sitting in a room with you. Yeah.

[00:36:09] And I think the biggest challenge is you get the people that have no appropriate perception, no perception of their body. And it's the easiest fit in the world because they're like, how does it feel? I don't know. What does it look like? Well, it looks, it looks okay. And they're just kind of, how does it feel? And they're like, I don't know. I'm like, well, you're done. Looks great. Like five. Yeah. Nothing I can help you with. Yeah. Because I was coaching, I used to run a junior development cycling team. So I worked with a lot of juniors both doing that.

[00:36:38] And it was everything from used to be 10 years old. And then once they aged out of juniors, you know, they had to go find another team. So I did a lot of fits for juniors. And I always said, junior boys are the hardest because every change, how does that feel? Good. A little more. Give me a little more. How about this? They don't know what they're feeling. Yeah. They don't know what they're feeling. They're just learning their bodies when they're growing as teenagers.

[00:37:05] There's so much going on that they don't know what to feel. They don't know what they should be feeling. They don't know. Like, it's just to get people like that, especially the young, the younger ones that, yeah, they just, they don't know. And it's hard to describe things that you should be feeling or shouldn't be feeling. There's a lot of folks that, like, I'll do their fit and everything. They say everything feels good. And then I'll hear back from later going like, well, yeah, you know, I kind of have a lot of numbness in my groin area. And I'm like, were you having that before?

[00:37:35] It was like, yeah. I'm like, why didn't you say that when I asked you? And they were just going to look. Well, I just kind of thought that was how it was supposed to be. I'm like, I specifically tell you sharp pain and numbness is bad. Like, you should not be having that. Like, call me right away. They're like, yeah, but like, I guess. I'm like, okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's not good. It's not good at all. Well, the tough thing with, too, with juniors is, you know, they're so flexible that they can

[00:38:04] be in a bad position and it feels fine to them. But as you get to, you know, as they get older, they start to see. And this is what I tell them for some reason. Cause I think Sean, you were talking about, oh, I've got my numbers and you know, I haven't changed them in X. And I'm like, but your body, so your body hasn't changed at all. Yeah. And any injuries, you're still as flexible as you were when you were 21.

[00:38:32] Um, so I started putting on my little form, almost like a prescription. It was like your next bike fit is due. Oh, nice. And I put a date on there. I liked that. Yeah. It's just to, yeah. Even cause when I used to do most of the fits in, when I was in Louisville, Kentucky, I would often run into those people. So I could remember, Hey, how's the fit going? Hey, don't forget in about a year, you need to come back and see me. Yeah.

[00:38:58] So it's just a way to reinforce the fact that, you know, we are aging, our flexibility changes. If you've got injuries, you need to come see me, uh, any of those things, you know, get a new bite, get a new, you know, anything. Yeah. Come, come see me, even if it's just for 10 or 15 minutes. I mean, I think the biggest part of that from listening to you too, is, you know, the other pieces, the, the, the bike fitters can help you kind of diagnose. Is this an injury?

[00:39:25] You know, I'm feeling a niggle and you get, you know, when you get to be my age, you know, you start to like, that just happens. And so it is kind of that diagnosis of, you know, is this a, you know, just something that happens. Is this because I, I'm not as, you know, I'm going to hit flexors, whatever it is, right. Is this because I'm not, I need to change on the bike or is this something else? Like, you know, you're doing your core work or you're doing whatever it is. Right. Cause the tri bars, I mean, for sure. Or like, you know, it's a back and core issue for a lot of people.

[00:39:55] I think when you get that aggressive, the more aggressive you get, right. What you guys tell me, like, there's some fitness to your point, Tom, that goes to like, sure. You want to get on this and it's not just your legs, but like, how flexible are you? And, you know, you've been rocking your core work. Well, no, you really want to lay down, you know, like, how's that going to roll for you? I will say, I'm sorry. I cut out, uh, you know, Elon Musk is now a trillionaire, but he can't solve how fast my Starlink reboots. The power is tough.

[00:40:24] Watching people this weekend, this last weekend racing in the flats are super windy up in Illinois. And there were people rocking, rocking deep, deep wheels to discs that definitely shouldn't. And, uh, you know, that haven't spent the time on it. And you're like, you know, and I'm, I was riding disc, but like, I'm old and fat. So I pushed the wheel down, but you know, you could tell as you're coming up on people, you're like, man, I'm not a hundred percent sure how far I want to get, you know, like how,

[00:40:53] why do I want to go with this guy? Cause I don't need to eat it because a wind gust comes, you know? And so I really liked that point you made about like, you know, I know the proper number of bikes is N plus one, but I firmly believe you should start with gravel or road. So many people come in with a tri bikes. And then of course they want to go ride in a group and I'm like, Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I just, I tell everyone to start with the road bike and never get rid of the road bike. And then you train on the tri bike for your races, but you do your group rides with friends on your road bike.

[00:41:22] And there's some tri groups out here that will, they'll go out together and there'll be nose to tail in the arrow position going through. And I'm like far away from them. I don't want to have to deal with helping them after they've crashed, let alone be crashed out by them as well. So end up like, I joke about the group rides out here is everyone meets for the picture and then everybody goes and does their thing, right? They just take off and there's no group ride. There's no real group ride where everyone rides socially together.

[00:41:49] They just go off and do whatever, which means that if they're on their tri bikes, they're with each other for a little bit until it breaks up on some hills or something. But it's kind of scary to watch. It really is. So what are the questions if someone's looking at bike fitters, Tom, you know, go that way. Like, you know, if you're shopping bike fitters or you're calling up, like what are a couple of questions you would advise people to, to ask and same, same for you, Michael. Yeah. I was going to say it's, it's philosophy driven for me.

[00:42:17] It's like, it's one thing to see what technology they have. I have the Vologic Fit, you know, motion capture system. I have two cameras in that, but that's not my main source. My main source is my eyes and my experience of what we're going through. So the idea is like when you're talking with a fitter, what's their philosophy for fitting? What's their, their style? And just by asking them some questions, what information they give you will tell you how open they are to explaining things.

[00:42:44] Like if I, like, if I ask you lots of questions, are you okay with that? If I question what you're doing, are you okay with that? And, and that's one thing I love when people ask me a question about why, why are you doing that? Well, here's why. And I try to explain that to everyone as I'm doing it. Like, well, I have an iPad that I shoot video on as well. So I can show you what I'm seeing, what I'm thinking about and what I want to try. And are you open to that?

[00:43:10] And then, but I think the conversation is the biggest thing in the beginning is, is they need to be asking you about your riding style. Your, your fitter should be asking you about your riding style, what your fitness goals are, um, what your experience on the bike is. If they're not asking those questions in the beginning, then I would be a little not concerned, but I wouldn't be as trusting. And I think you need to trust your fitter the same as you would need to trust your coach.

[00:43:39] And I think that's, that's the first things that you need to get from them is like, what is your philosophy for fitting? And, you know, how do we get through that? And then your fitter should be asking you, okay, well, what do you want to accomplish out of this? What is your, you know, what are your goals? Yeah. The only thing that I would add to that, and I, I think those are great. Um, cause I think people do just say, oh, this person's been certified. Uh, so they must be a good bike fitter.

[00:44:04] So I'd really do say, call them up, ask, ask them to walk you through their process. What people often find interesting about when I'm doing a fit, they're not on the bike for the first 45 minutes to an hour because I'm interviewing them. I want to know injury history, you know, does it affect you on the bike? Does it affect you, you know, walking around?

[00:44:29] So we spend all that getting a lot of body measurements, flexibility measurements up front. And to me, that's, that's helping me get to some hypotheses about once I get them on the bike. So it starts to give me these things like I need to look for. So have the, have the fitter walk you through their process and just say, tell me a little bit about your process. I don't know how you feel about this time. Um, I do think some sort of certification, um, whether it's fist or Serata having that

[00:44:58] because you do get the science. And I've worked with some PTs who actually are also bike fitters, but a fitter should never fit themselves. But I'm guilty of that. Well, I think you do get to know like, well, I know if it's this, I can probably tweak this for a little bit, but. You know, I think having that background, if you don't naturally come with like a physical

[00:45:24] therapy background or kinesiology, these programs can help you gain that. But, but again, that's the process, you know, as for referrals, you know, can you give me some, some people you fit so I could get some feedback on. For sure. Yeah. And I agree with having some kind of certification is, is, is good that you've, there's, there's a lot of learning involved from our end of what, what we need to do. I didn't come from the science background of it.

[00:45:54] So I spend a lot of time immersing myself in the science background and the physiology of it to, to be better, to be a better fitter. And I look at each fit that comes through as a new, new fit, like something new I can learn from. I think it's easy for us. And in the coaching side, it's the same thing, right? It's just kind of like, this is the same typical thing that I see every single time. So I'm just going to treat it the same way.

[00:46:20] And I probably devote a lot more mental energy to looking, trying to look at it as a brand new thing. What, what am I going to, what am I missing from this, this person? That seems like a carbon copy of the previous one that, that not to get, not to get lazy and complacent on it. That it's just, oh, it's raise the seat high, tip your, tip your pelvis and you're fine. You're all good. You know, to actually kind of really look at it from the full 360 and getting all that information ahead of time. Yeah.

[00:46:49] We, if I have either an online call with, with the athlete beforehand, or if they just, you know, if they booked a fit and come in, we're sitting down, like they're just talking to each other about life and what they do and their injury history and their, their sports history and all of that. That's critical conversation before they even get on the bike. Yeah. I just add lots of like, like coaches, some people will be like, so-and-so told me to go here. And when you have that conversation, if you're not comfortable, it's a big investment on top

[00:47:18] of a big investment. Yeah. To make your thing go, you need to be comfortable with it. It's a relationship over time. And then secondly, for me, it's the question I usually have people ask is, you know, what, what do they do after the first fit? And so like, willing to, like the question I have is, are you willing to make it right the first time? And then, you know, obviously you'd pay again, six months, 12 months, whenever your oil change is like, or your position change, you know, appointment. But, you know, the good ones I've seen are like, I'm going to get this right for you. And it's hard to get it exactly right.

[00:47:48] Cause to your point, you get it right in the room and they're like, oh no, it's good. It's good. It's good. And then, you know, they're like, I was riding, you know, and, and, you know, 20 miles in like everything hurt. You're like, well, let's fix that. Like, so they're really willing to partner with you. Like a good coaches, whereas at a highly transactional, you know, service thing, we're going to do the best we can while you're in here. And then it's, you know, you're on your own. Cause the good ones seem to really take it. I mean, kind of in a positive way, the good ones take it very personal. Like, oh, yeah, I want to make it right. Yeah.

[00:48:17] They're like upset if you, you know, you come back in and when I've heard people be like, yeah, they were angry. I didn't give them all the information, you know, and they're like, yeah, you know, they were upset with me. I'm like, oh good. That's, that's a good fitter. They're like not happy that you didn't get it, get it right. Yeah. I'm at a lot of races the same way set up, like at Music City where we're like, I'm set up with my tent and I'm checking in. Like I tell all, all my fit clients to stop by and say hi. And I'm like, how, how was it? What, you know, is there anything we need to tweak or, you know, is it feeling good or

[00:48:46] are there any issues you come on back? And like, I certainly like, that's, that's kind of my calling card. If you're out there and you're not comfortable or didn't have a good experience, then that reflects poorly on me. And then the next person is not going to want to come and, and get fit. So, I mean, I, I really focus on giving the athlete a good experience and making sure that everything's taken care of. Like, and we can get probably 95% of people fit. I mean, there's probably at least 5% of people.

[00:49:16] We just, we just can't. We can get you so far, but there might be physical limitations. There might be, you know, personal limitations that they have to it. But, but we can get most people at least halfway there and a lot more efficient to where they need to be. And then there's some posture things that if they don't work on posture, then that we can't help you, right? That's yeah. Your, your shoulders are going to ache all the time because you're always rounding your shoulders because you're not sitting properly. You're not sitting properly at a desk.

[00:49:44] You're not standing properly anyway. So you have bad posture. You, that that's on you. You have to do a little bit of work on that yourself. So there's a nice balance that we have on there, but we try to, I try to explain that to everyone and kind of give them that. I give them exercises to do like, here's how you can like, especially in the triathletes and to get into that position, they're like, well, I want to get a little lower. I'm like, yeah, but your scapula won't allow you to do that. You just found the flexibility. And if you do these exercises, these wall exercises or, you know, some, some, you know,

[00:50:15] rolling and, and, and massage therapy work on your, on your muscles, like this will help your swim as well. But we need to open your shoulders up in order for you to stop rounding your back and being hunched over on the tri, on the tri bars. Right. We, we need you to be able to have that flexibility of your shoulders to get the position that you want to be in. So once again, that's on them, you know, and I have some good physical therapists that I recommend people to go see because that's outside of my, my expertise.

[00:50:43] And I'm quick to tell you what I don't know really quick. Like that's, I can't, I can tell you that that seems muscular, not fit related. And here's two people that you can go see that will confirm that it's muscular and tell you how to fix that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think Sean, that, that would be something I would add to that list of questions is kind of what happens after the fit, like ask the fit, what happens? Cause I can tell just in this brief conversation with Tom, he's like me, if someone, like,

[00:51:11] if I find out later that that person didn't call me to tell me something was wrong, I'm like, Oh my gosh. Yeah. So what I've started, you know, the first thing I do is, okay, we got you. We're pretty close, but I want you to go ride for two weeks, get about five or six, you know, five, six hours, maybe 10 hours on that, in that position. And then call me, tell me what's going on. My only asterisk next to that is like, if you feel pain, not discomfort, pain, call me

[00:51:41] immediately, a little discomfort. I'm okay. Cause that's your body adjusting. And something I started doing a few years ago for the, someone that's bought a fit is I said, if you need to come back in say six months and we need to just tweak some, I started just charging them an hourly rate versus a full fit. So it helps it. I think making that, cause it is a financial investment. I think well worth the, the investment for your enjoyment of the ride for results, et cetera.

[00:52:10] But I also wanted them to feel like, well, I can't go back. I can't spend another, you know, whatever amount. Yeah. And I say, look, we're going to make it right. So within the first few weeks, we want to make sure we've pretty much nailed it. But if you find out in a few months, come back in, you know, here's my hourly rate. I think this will take 45 minutes. And I've found that has really helped people's kind of overcome their hesitancy to call me

[00:52:37] back when they have, they discover, Hey, you know, I went for my longest ride ever. And now I'm noticing this great. Well, let me get you back in. It's not a full fit. It sounds like we just need to tweak something. Yeah. And I'm, I'm doing the same thing. I've got that. I've got the same thing. I give it like two follow-up fits within the first three or four months and, and more if there's an issue, right. If there's something that, that we really need to dial in and then, yeah, I have a, I

[00:53:02] have a flat rate, much, much lower flat rate for someone who wants to come back a year later and just get some stuff dialed in. Yeah. I always, always do that. And I just, I just had another thought and I just lost it. Anyway, I'll come back to me in a second. Something else to ask your, ask your, ask your fitter ahead of time. Oh, the yeah. Not to focus on the price. So when you go in and you're like, well, how much does it cost? That's not the, that's not the correct answer. Cause how much it costs is ridiculous. It's expensive.

[00:53:31] It's way, way super expensive. The question that you want to ask is what services do I get for the cost? Yeah. Because I can give you like, there's like 12 things that you get for my, for my service charge. Right. And if you want me to do it for cheaper, I just start deducting things. I won't, but that's how we'll start talking. Okay. So you don't want this and you don't want to report at the end and you don't want this and you don't want that. So yeah, you're not. So the question that they need to be asking their, their fitter is like, what services

[00:54:01] am I getting for the cost? And that will tell you whether it's worth it or not. Right. You're going to, you're going to get some deliverables. You're going to get something to walk away with, you know, and the follow-ups or whatever comes through that is, is key to just being so focused on how much it costs. Because I think once you see what's involved, it's not going to cost that much. You know, it's kind of the value, the value is there for sure. Awesome. So I really appreciate you coming on, Tom. So. Cool. This has been great.

[00:54:31] Yeah, this is awesome. Get to hear you guys, you two go. Maybe we'll, maybe we'll have another follow-up session where we'll talk about the science behind it sometime. There you go. And I'll get to feel what it's like in my day job when people get bored listening to me talk about, man, I'll get to, I'll get to see the flip side. This is, this is what they're, this is what they're hearing. We're nerding out completely. I have another idea. We could do another episode, but we, Sean, we'd put you on a trainer. I love that. And then we, we could just.

[00:54:59] I think half the reason I haven't gone is I'm so dialed in and then I'm going to get on there and people are going to be like, what are you doing, bro? Like, that's not like, like, you know, like, you know, that would be kind of interesting. I will, I will say I probably, my, my thing is always, I probably wouldn't get a fit now. I will get one in the fall. So this bike that's newish to me, I dialed in, I feel good on it, but I wouldn't say I feel as confident that I did on my road bike dialed in.

[00:55:28] Cause that one, I felt like this one, I still feel like it's aggressive. It is, you know, to your point, like I've been riding forever and road pro, like you get on a new bike. It's amazing to hear people get on a tri bike and I hadn't been on a couple of years and that's their only bike. Cause I'm like, I'm super comfortable in a girl. I mean, I met Michael and, you know, packs of 30 and 40 hugging shoulders. Like I'm super comfortable, but on that, this new bike, like I needed some time out.

[00:55:54] So that would be kind of funny to, to get a video on the trainer and then have both of you start yelling at me. Yeah. We will post when we post this out. So we'll make sure we get, you know, Michael can be found at meta obviously. And we'll poach Tom and try Tom. Tom also does swim coaching if you're down on the area too. So I'm just a great human. Great riding, great riding in middle Tennessee through the Nashville area down to, you know, down near Chattanooga, the Sequatchie Valley is fantastic.

[00:56:24] There's a, there's lots of great routes. Yeah, no, there's tons of stuff and great swimming. They're actually too. And great swimming. Yeah, it is actually. Once you get a little further outside of Nashville, it's a little bit of a, a little bit more of a playground than I was expecting outside and Tom's fault that I had to do the Music City Tri. I did not realize that was the third longest triathlon in the United States. Third longest running. Third longest running. Yeah. Yeah. 40, 47 years. 47 years. Yeah. I had no, no idea. Yeah. So I really appreciate it. We'll get this posted.

[00:56:54] And obviously if you have fit questions, you know, call up Tom or Michael, not me. Yeah. As you go, do not call. Yeah. If you want to see what not to do, call me, but yeah, no, that's great. I really appreciate you coming on. Oh, it's been great talking with you guys. I really appreciate you having me. Thank you so much.