Redefining Equity in the Workplace: Managing Director at CareerCircle, Kim Sneeder's Leadership Journey

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[00:00:56] This is William Tencup and Ryan Leary, and you are listening, hopefully watching Inside the C-Suite Podcast. We have Kim on today. Ryan, first of all, how are you doing today?

[00:01:05] Oh, I am fantastic. It's a post-Zach Bryan concert day. Not for me. Not for me. But for the little one who purchased her own ticket, surprisingly, and then had no rides to or from the concert.

[00:01:21] I love this.

[00:01:22] I love this.

[00:01:23] So, yeah. This was me being a great father, by the way. Driving them 90 minutes to the concert.

[00:01:31] I think he was forced.

[00:01:33] I was forced.

[00:01:34] Yeah.

[00:01:36] But I put my foot down, and I did not stay. I said, you find your own way home.

[00:01:40] I like that.

[00:01:41] I don't care if you're 16.

[00:01:42] Yeah. Figure it out.

[00:01:43] The boyfriend's father, stepfather, said, I'll pick you up at 1045. I'm like, concert's not over until like 1130, 12.

[00:01:51] You do you, homie.

[00:01:52] I don't care. You're called.

[00:01:54] You know this generation with emergencies? I have this with both my kids, too. It's like, oh, yeah. Especially like in theater or some stuff like that. It's like, oh, yeah. I need to have a full wardrobe for tomorrow. It's like, what? Dude.

[00:02:09] Should have done that three weeks ago.

[00:02:11] You've known. You've known about this. So.

[00:02:14] Yeah.

[00:02:14] Yeah.

[00:02:15] Well, your emergency is not my emergency. It's kind of the.

[00:02:18] No. But Kim, where are you based again?

[00:02:21] I'm in Richmond, Virginia.

[00:02:23] So.

[00:02:24] Oh, that's right. Okay. Well, you know Bruce Springsteen, right? You've heard of this guy.

[00:02:28] Okay.

[00:02:29] That's right.

[00:02:29] So.

[00:02:30] So last night, Zach Bryan brings out two artists mid-concert.

[00:02:35] Yep.

[00:02:36] One of them, Bruce Springsteen.

[00:02:38] She has no clue who he is.

[00:02:40] She's like, they were booing him. They kept saying boo. I'm like, no, they were saying Bruce.

[00:02:44] Oh, my God.

[00:02:46] How old does this make you feel?

[00:02:49] Oh, my God.

[00:02:50] And our sons and daughters have no idea who Bruce Springsteen is.

[00:02:54] He brought Bruce Springsteen out. You went to a Bruce Springsteen, like three songs he did.

[00:02:58] It was one of the best concerts I went to. I went to Born in the USA at the Cotton Bowl in Dallas.

[00:03:04] He played.

[00:03:04] Oh, my God.

[00:03:05] He played for six and a half hours.

[00:03:07] Oh, my God.

[00:03:08] Seriously.

[00:03:09] That's a long time.

[00:03:10] No, it was great.

[00:03:11] That is a long time.

[00:03:11] It was great because it takes some set breaks and like people could go to the concessions and like everyone hung out.

[00:03:16] And it was I saw the Stones in the same place, Tattoo You.

[00:03:20] And it was just like six and a half hours.

[00:03:22] You don't think he has enough of that.

[00:03:24] But he'd play songs twice, three times, things like that.

[00:03:28] I've never seen him live, but I have seen the Bruce Experience, the cover band for Bruce, which was fantastic, by the way.

[00:03:38] So I'm assuming Bruce was really good in person.

[00:03:40] He was really good.

[00:03:41] He was really good.

[00:03:41] Kim, do us a favor and introduce yourself.

[00:03:44] Tell us a little bit about you and your company, et cetera.

[00:03:48] Absolutely.

[00:03:49] Well, William and Ryan, thank you so much for having me.

[00:03:51] I'm Kim Sneeder.

[00:03:52] I've been with Allegis Group, which is one of the largest staffing companies for the last, just hit 26 years.

[00:04:00] But about five years ago for Allegis, we developed Career Circle, which is a workforce solutions company on a mission to change lives.

[00:04:08] So really taking underrepresented communities and then connecting them to job opportunities.

[00:04:16] Is it a technology base?

[00:04:19] It is.

[00:04:19] It's a platform that is taking everything that you need to build diverse talent pipelines and putting them into one ecosystem.

[00:04:28] But then the logic behind the scenes is looking at a 360 degree view of the candidate.

[00:04:35] Because think about all the times when the world was saying you're more than a resume, but what did TAC?

[00:04:41] So there's a broken system.

[00:04:42] They just saw the resume.

[00:04:43] Right.

[00:04:44] So there was a broken system where we said we need to give a 360 degree view of the candidate to really start to make an impact in this space.

[00:04:53] Have you seen more of that become skills based?

[00:04:55] Yes.

[00:04:56] Over the last couple of years?

[00:04:58] Yeah.

[00:04:58] Even so much of what we do, it's not just connecting with the underrepresented communities.

[00:05:04] It's also making sure they have the skills that they need.

[00:05:08] Right.

[00:05:08] So in partnerships with Google and Salesforce and IBM, it's making sure that they have the skills and that we translate what they learned into jobs that would align.

[00:05:21] Last question real quickly about this.

[00:05:24] Ryan and I do a news show on Sundays, and we've seen in the last couple of weeks just people getting rid of DEI departments, John Deere, Tractor Supply, Microsoft, laying off DEI teams, etc.

[00:05:38] You know, you've studied this space for a long time.

[00:05:41] What is this just the reality?

[00:05:45] Like we, you know, they were always going to get rid of these things or are they doing it in different ways?

[00:05:51] Like what's your, just your take?

[00:05:53] Even SHRM got rid of diversity as a word.

[00:05:57] And now it's just, no, it's inclusion.

[00:06:00] They got rid of equity.

[00:06:01] Sorry.

[00:06:02] Just get them all confused.

[00:06:02] So they flipped it to inclusion and diversity and got rid of equity.

[00:06:07] So it's like, it seems like that stuff's under it.

[00:06:10] Your timing is impeccable.

[00:06:12] I actually just put a post up on LinkedIn this morning because here's what I think happens often.

[00:06:18] It's whatever definition you tie to equity.

[00:06:21] So if, so if people are thinking, gosh, equity means I have to hire X, Y, and Z person.

[00:06:28] It doesn't matter if they're qualified.

[00:06:30] That's not the right definition.

[00:06:32] And that's not what we mean by equity.

[00:06:34] So in the example I used this morning, my son is autistic.

[00:06:37] And so birthday parties are a no-go.

[00:06:41] I mean, it's terrifying for him and it's hard.

[00:06:45] And so recently he got invited to an ice skating party.

[00:06:48] In Ethan's mind, being cold and being on a set of knives is a really bad idea, right?

[00:06:56] So for three weeks, I order rollerblades.

[00:06:59] I turn the temperature down in the house and we're learning how to skate and we're making it fun.

[00:07:03] So if Ethan decided to compete one day in ice skating, he might've had to work harder.

[00:07:10] He might have needed inline skates and some additional resources, but the race is going to determine whether he wins.

[00:07:16] It's still about the best candidate.

[00:07:18] And so what I'm really trying to do in this space is calibrate how are people defining equity?

[00:07:25] Let's start there.

[00:07:26] And then look at the data because here's the thing.

[00:07:30] Our candidates are outperforming the general population by 7%.

[00:07:36] So no one could argue, I want the top candidate.

[00:07:41] And by the way, I'm building products and services for a diverse market.

[00:07:45] So I need to represent that.

[00:07:47] I just think our definition of equity, I think the climate, it's all coming into this perfect storm that put the concept under attack.

[00:07:58] And we just need to reframe, start asking smart questions, look at the data.

[00:08:02] And if we remove the emotion and just look at the impact, don't we want more qualified candidates to choose from?

[00:08:11] You know?

[00:08:13] Sorry, I get really passionate about it.

[00:08:15] This one's personal to me with my son, you know, in call it 10 years.

[00:08:20] I need him to go out there and know he will have to work harder.

[00:08:25] But when you tap into those skills that he has that no one else has, he will positively impact an organization's bottom line at a far greater level than some of his counterparts can.

[00:08:38] Number one, he knows what hard is and he'll be up for it.

[00:08:41] And number two, he just has a specific set of skills that others don't have.

[00:08:45] Okay.

[00:08:46] So, Kim, this show is all about you.

[00:08:49] It's all about your journey.

[00:08:51] You ready to go back and learn, William?

[00:08:53] I am.

[00:08:54] All about Kim?

[00:08:55] I am.

[00:08:56] This is going to be a fun one.

[00:08:58] So, Kim, the people that listen to this show are either in the C-suite, they're aspiring entrepreneurs, they're making their way up the corporate ladder, and they want to learn what motivates, what inspires, what has driven you through your career.

[00:09:19] Hey, everybody.

[00:09:20] I'm Lori Rudiman.

[00:09:21] What are you doing?

[00:09:22] Working?

[00:09:22] Nah.

[00:09:23] You're listening to a podcast about work, and that barely counts.

[00:09:27] So, while you're at it, check out my show, Punk Rock HR, now on the Work Defined Network.

[00:09:32] We chat with smart people about work, power, politics, and money.

[00:09:36] Are we succeeding?

[00:09:38] Are we fixing work?

[00:09:39] Probably not.

[00:09:40] Work still sucks.

[00:09:41] But tune in for some fun, a little nonsense, and a fresh take on how to fix work once and for all.

[00:09:47] So, let's go back a little bit.

[00:09:50] Humble beginnings.

[00:09:51] We don't need to go to nursery school.

[00:09:55] At what point did you realize you were going to go from worker bee to...

[00:10:01] Yeah.

[00:10:02] Such a great question.

[00:10:03] And I think oftentimes we're so in our world doing our work that we don't think about that.

[00:10:09] So, thank you for the opportunity to do that today.

[00:10:12] I think, you know, we say we don't need to go back to nursery school, but there was one defining moment that I think changed the trajectory of who I am as a person.

[00:10:23] We were in a really bad car accident when I was five, and my mother ended up in the hospital for a year.

[00:10:28] I flew out of the back windshield of a car, landed on my face.

[00:10:34] Not great.

[00:10:35] So, even when you hear that story, you can visualize that I was not a beautiful child for a period of time.

[00:10:42] All my baby teeth were killed.

[00:10:44] They all were black.

[00:10:46] And it was really interesting because my mom, and it was a pivotal time.

[00:10:51] I was starting school.

[00:10:52] Kids aren't super nice all the time.

[00:10:54] And I remember her brilliant idea, which by the way was really bad, was to put me in pageants.

[00:11:01] See, I'm from the South.

[00:11:02] So, when you have no teeth in a jacked up space, you don't need to be in pageants.

[00:11:08] But here's what she did inevitably was she taught me it wasn't what I look like.

[00:11:14] It wasn't the fear inside of me that I could truly do anything that I set my mind to.

[00:11:20] And that inspired this deep sense of, number one, I knew what hard was, and I knew I would get through it.

[00:11:28] And I think it really ignited something in me.

[00:11:31] And so, even when I was in college, I come from a very humble upbringing.

[00:11:37] So, I had to work to pay for college.

[00:11:39] And I was working at a restaurant.

[00:11:41] I was an international business major.

[00:11:44] I spoke four languages.

[00:11:45] Truthfully, I never had the money to travel, and I wanted to be able to travel.

[00:11:49] So, that was a way to do that.

[00:11:51] But I could meet executives, C-suite executives from these organizations.

[00:11:55] I would practice my languages.

[00:11:57] Every experience I had, even if it was waiting tables, became this opportunity to learn from brilliant people.

[00:12:06] And I share that because I believe my life was a series of hard work, but also people that took a chance on me when they didn't have to.

[00:12:17] And so, you know, I started at Allegis, right?

[00:12:21] It was my first job when I graduated from college.

[00:12:24] And I don't even think I really understood what they did.

[00:12:27] But I knew people worked really hard there.

[00:12:30] And then you were rewarded for how hard you worked.

[00:12:34] And while I wasn't good at a lot of things, I would outwork anyone because I always had to.

[00:12:41] So, when you ask the question about when that pivotal moment was, two things happened.

[00:12:47] I was a great doer.

[00:12:49] And see, when somebody would say this to me in the past, it used to really irritate me because I thought number one was good.

[00:12:55] But number one is not enough.

[00:12:57] I wasn't a great leader.

[00:13:01] And so, I could get to the finish line.

[00:13:03] And I would outwork everyone.

[00:13:04] But I didn't know how to effectively bring people with me.

[00:13:08] And so, I think the most powerful part of my career was when, number one, I got over myself and started to really look in the mirror to say, okay, well, what does that mean?

[00:13:20] How do I get better?

[00:13:22] So, I was a good leader.

[00:13:22] And then going back to my story about my son, he was the best thing that ever happened to me for so many reasons.

[00:13:28] But he made me a better leader because I understood finally, it took me a long time, not to judge the outcome, not to judge what I was seeing, but to look at the root cause of it and then help that person.

[00:13:44] And so, what I found is through my experiences with Ethan, I just became a better leader, a better culture builder.

[00:13:53] And I had more people with me because it wasn't just about me being at the top.

[00:13:58] If that makes sense.

[00:14:00] Let's unpack that just a little bit.

[00:14:02] So, William and I talk about this all the time where we have people that do really, really good.

[00:14:10] Maybe they're a salesperson at a company and they're blowing quotas away.

[00:14:16] Five years in, they're blowing quotas away.

[00:14:18] They're just crushing it.

[00:14:20] They get promoted to head of sales or VP of sales.

[00:14:23] And then they bomb because they don't have that leadership.

[00:14:28] Curious to get your thoughts there on, obviously, they just don't have experience.

[00:14:34] But why?

[00:14:35] Why do people have that mental block when they go from extreme excellent doer into leadership?

[00:14:42] Similar to what you're describing.

[00:14:44] And it was me.

[00:14:45] I mean, I was in sales.

[00:14:46] I mean, you just painted a picture of me.

[00:14:49] I mean, really.

[00:14:51] Total coincidence.

[00:14:52] And if you had painted that picture years ago, I would have been offended.

[00:14:57] And now.

[00:14:58] Kim, Ryan started in staffing.

[00:15:00] So, he knows that world.

[00:15:03] So, he started in staffing.

[00:15:06] Funny enough, if I slide over, because I haven't done, you probably can't recognize those or read them.

[00:15:12] They're from Conexa.

[00:15:14] Oh, my goodness.

[00:15:14] So, I left Conexa a very long time ago.

[00:15:18] I started there in 07.

[00:15:19] And I left a very long time ago.

[00:15:21] But when we did the branding, the rebranding, we had Conexas.

[00:15:25] And these two just resonated with me.

[00:15:28] And I said, I want those.

[00:15:30] Yeah.

[00:15:30] When can I get them?

[00:15:31] Like, have you ever get rid of them?

[00:15:32] And they sent them to me.

[00:15:34] And I love them.

[00:15:35] This is 08.

[00:15:37] Yeah.

[00:15:37] 09.

[00:15:39] And I still have them.

[00:15:40] And I'm literally going to put them on the wall right behind me eventually.

[00:15:43] Right now, they're just going to kind of sit.

[00:15:45] See, I think people in staffing are stronger.

[00:15:48] And I don't mean to offend anybody in corporate.

[00:15:51] That's not the bit.

[00:15:52] It's just when you have...

[00:15:54] It's a different muscle.

[00:15:55] It is a different muscle.

[00:15:56] The rejection...

[00:15:57] You get rejected by candidates, like two sides.

[00:16:01] You've got a hiring manager that rejects candidates.

[00:16:06] So, you've got to deal with that.

[00:16:07] You've got candidates that reject you.

[00:16:09] You're getting rejected on all sides.

[00:16:12] Whereas in corporate, it's still hard to manage a hiring manager and candidates.

[00:16:17] But it just doesn't seem like it's the intensity that staffing is.

[00:16:23] So, I think you're born of a different fiber.

[00:16:26] People that come up through staffing, especially staffing 15, 20 years ago, where it was...

[00:16:32] People just dropped phone books.

[00:16:35] You know, Rolodexes in front of people and said, all right, call them.

[00:16:39] Yeah, yellow pages.

[00:16:39] Get after it.

[00:16:40] Get after it.

[00:16:41] I remember selling ads for the yellow pages.

[00:16:43] Call.

[00:16:44] Call everybody.

[00:16:45] Like, where do I call?

[00:16:46] Well, you start at A and you go to Z.

[00:16:48] All right.

[00:16:50] Yeah.

[00:16:50] You just call people and go, hey, how you doing?

[00:16:52] This is so-and-so.

[00:16:53] Listen, are you hiring?

[00:16:55] Quick.

[00:16:56] Yeah.

[00:16:57] Oh, good.

[00:16:58] Meanwhile, I was like, I've got all my teeth now.

[00:17:00] And I feel like I've done hard.

[00:17:01] So, we're good.

[00:17:02] You're ready to go.

[00:17:03] But, you know, Ryan...

[00:17:04] I could be a leader.

[00:17:05] I have my teeth back.

[00:17:06] Yeah, I have my teeth back.

[00:17:07] That's what I mean now.

[00:17:10] But, Ryan, I think, you know, your question is, it's really good.

[00:17:14] And I think when you think about really strong salespeople, sometimes they know how to get

[00:17:21] out there.

[00:17:21] They're driven.

[00:17:22] They want to be number one.

[00:17:23] They know how to do that.

[00:17:25] But, the leadership piece comes in the second vein, which is, can you teach, coach, and inspire

[00:17:32] other people?

[00:17:33] Right.

[00:17:33] And really focusing on that coaching.

[00:17:36] Because if it's so natural to you, but you don't know how to break it down and uncover

[00:17:41] where someone else is struggling, you will struggle as a leader.

[00:17:45] And then the second piece is, if you naturally can see the forest through the trees.

[00:17:51] Like, I could listen to a client.

[00:17:53] I could hear what was broken and solve it.

[00:17:55] That's not a skill that everyone has.

[00:17:57] If you can't, number one, pause, have some empathy, understand the person might not be getting

[00:18:04] it, and then be able to bring them with you, you can't lead.

[00:18:08] And so, I think it's funny because we're talking about staffing, but really, it's also, you

[00:18:14] see this with athletes like Jordan.

[00:18:16] He's seven years in the league.

[00:18:19] From 84 to 91, he was the best scorer.

[00:18:25] And he would outscore everyone.

[00:18:28] But it wasn't until 91, 90 and 91, that he learned.

[00:18:33] He can outscore everyone, but he won't win turfries.

[00:18:37] So, it's like you have to make a decision at a certain point as a talented person.

[00:18:42] Well, what's more important to me?

[00:18:44] If it's sales quotas and winning awards and going on the President's Awards trip and going

[00:18:49] to Hawaii and doing that, cool.

[00:18:51] Like, there's no shame in that.

[00:18:53] But if it's leadership and you want to win championships in an athlete's mind, you're

[00:18:59] going to have to play where everyone else.

[00:19:02] Yeah, you're going to have to.

[00:19:03] Yeah, exactly.

[00:19:03] I want to get back to the moment where, was the reflection forced on you in the sense of,

[00:19:13] like, you had a performance review and someone said, hey, you're awesome, but you're not a

[00:19:19] great team player or you're not, your leadership skills are lacking.

[00:19:22] Like, was it an outside force that made you reflect or did you come to it on your own?

[00:19:28] Yeah, it's a great question.

[00:19:30] There was a, it wasn't a formal review.

[00:19:34] I was talking to a leader who I really respect and he used the words and he knew me really

[00:19:39] well.

[00:19:39] And he just very blankly said, Kim, you're a doer and you're my best doer.

[00:19:44] But if you don't learn how to lead, it won't be here.

[00:19:49] Um, and this is, this is an evening conversation with a lot of, um, passion and conviction behind

[00:19:55] it.

[00:19:55] Yes.

[00:19:56] Yes.

[00:19:56] Um, and so for about three weeks, I was really angry at said person.

[00:20:01] Um, but then I came back to it and I thought, I realized I'm pretty good with self-reflection.

[00:20:08] Now I have to go through the emotions of it, but at the end of the day, looking in the mirror

[00:20:13] and what I realized is I was, um, one dimensional.

[00:20:17] There was feet or maybe better said there was fear that I would be one dimensional.

[00:20:21] I understood what he said and I understood two other things.

[00:20:25] Number one, I needed some coaching because some of it didn't come natural to me.

[00:20:30] You know, when you've been wired a certain way for a long time, you have to learn new skills.

[00:20:35] And so I very intentionally went out and got some mentors, um, that understood me that would

[00:20:43] guide me and they would give it to me straight.

[00:20:45] I didn't need anyone to sugarcoat it for me.

[00:20:47] I didn't, you know, I just needed a bit of help.

[00:20:49] So I think the second piece is, are you willing to look in the mirror and really understand

[00:20:55] what your shortcomings are?

[00:20:56] And then the next piece is, and are you willing to do the work?

[00:21:00] Because I had to do some serious work to get better.

[00:21:04] Um, and it didn't happen overnight.

[00:21:07] It didn't happen overnight.

[00:21:08] But when I built, when we built Career Circle, I thought, you know, we talk about, you get

[00:21:13] a once in a lifetime chance to say, okay, over the course of my history, what have I learned?

[00:21:19] And if we get to build something new where I get to put it all into practice, what would

[00:21:25] that look like?

[00:21:26] And that's been really fun.

[00:21:28] Let's talk about mentorship.

[00:21:29] So you commented that you went out and found mentors intentionally and you found, it sounds

[00:21:36] like multiple mentors.

[00:21:38] Maybe talk a little bit about that.

[00:21:40] How does somebody, how did one, how did you build it?

[00:21:42] But what would the advice be to build a network of mentors and how to do that with intention?

[00:21:48] Because I think some people have mentors, but they may not be with intention.

[00:21:53] It's just somebody who gets them and they can reflect off of them, but not by intention.

[00:21:59] So maybe let's dig in there a little bit.

[00:22:01] Really good.

[00:22:01] So I think first you need mentors and sponsors, but let's start with mentors.

[00:22:06] One background check isn't always enough to protect your business.

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[00:22:36] I want to take a break real quick just to let you know about a new show we've just added

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[00:23:03] Group.

[00:23:05] So for the mentor piece, number one, right now, I loved it when you said some people go and

[00:23:10] find mentors that they know like them or celebrate them.

[00:23:13] You know, I would argue, go find people that think differently than you and that have the

[00:23:18] skill that you don't have and that know you want some real honest feedback.

[00:23:24] Because if you really want to get better, I think first you need to look at what are the

[00:23:30] skills that I want to work on?

[00:23:33] And be very specific.

[00:23:34] If you just call people and say, I'm looking for a mentor in this space.

[00:23:38] It is just like, I'm on a list that you felt like you needed to call to check the box for

[00:23:42] someone.

[00:23:43] That's not what I'm talking about.

[00:23:44] I'm talking about, I want to get better at this skill.

[00:23:47] If you take your time and help me, number one, I'm going to put in the work to practice

[00:23:52] it.

[00:23:53] And then number two, here's how I might apply it to benefit you, right?

[00:23:57] May or may not benefit them.

[00:23:58] But it's really nice when it can be both sides.

[00:24:03] You know what you should know?

[00:24:05] You should know the You Should Know podcast.

[00:24:08] That's what you should know.

[00:24:10] Because then you'd be in the know on all things that are timely and topical.

[00:24:14] Subscribe to the You Should Know podcast.

[00:24:17] Thanks.

[00:24:18] The second thing is, like I mentioned earlier, look for people that are different from you.

[00:24:23] I one time picked a mentor that I knew was so polar opposite of me.

[00:24:28] One could argue probably didn't really like me.

[00:24:31] You know what I mean?

[00:24:32] Like, I'm a lot.

[00:24:33] And so for some people, that's entertaining and that's fun.

[00:24:36] And for some people, it's exhausting.

[00:24:38] And one could argue I probably exhausted this person.

[00:24:40] But I knew I would get a different dimension of thinking versus just people that acted like

[00:24:47] me and approached life like me.

[00:24:50] But most importantly, if somebody's taking the time, you got to do the work.

[00:24:55] And I don't think we talk about that enough.

[00:24:57] So I want to take us just a slightly different way.

[00:25:00] Ryan and I have had two really good friends work for Allegis, not to be named.

[00:25:06] But one thing that we have learned about Allegis from both of them is it's really like a family.

[00:25:15] And people will say that stuff.

[00:25:16] They'll write that stuff on their website or whatever.

[00:25:20] But they both had that experience with Allegis.

[00:25:25] And I want to get your take on that.

[00:25:27] Like, because you've been with them for a while.

[00:25:29] And I'm sure companies changed over time and, you know, all that other stuff.

[00:25:33] But like the component of family, I usually call BS because it's like, it's a business.

[00:25:40] Let's stop calling it a family.

[00:25:42] You have family.

[00:25:43] Maybe you don't like your family.

[00:25:44] But, you know, it's a business.

[00:25:45] Let's stop calling it that.

[00:25:46] But in these two specific instances, both of them have come out the other side going, no, it's like family.

[00:25:54] Yeah.

[00:25:56] I will leave it up to people that are listening to define how you define family.

[00:26:01] What I will tell you is here's my experience at Allegis.

[00:26:04] And I think most would say this.

[00:26:07] Number one, you're going to get honest feedback.

[00:26:10] Like people are going to tell you when you're amazing.

[00:26:12] And they're also going to tell you when you need to get your head out of your butt and figure it out.

[00:26:16] Right.

[00:26:16] To me, that's like a family.

[00:26:18] I'm going to give you the good, the bad, the ugly.

[00:26:21] When both of my parents died within two years, that entire place was full of Allegis employees.

[00:26:26] And they were there to support me in a very, very hard time.

[00:26:30] That's showing up for your people.

[00:26:32] You know, to me, that's family.

[00:26:35] Investing in people.

[00:26:36] You know, there were times where I said I didn't have, I mean, even building Career Circle, I remember saying to the former president of Allegis,

[00:26:44] when are we going to talk about the elephant in the room, which is I've never built a company and you're putting me in this room.

[00:26:50] You know, and I'll never forget both he and then my other mentor, who was the senior vice president.

[00:26:56] He said, you have the skills inside of you and we'll never let you fail.

[00:27:01] That's family believing, advocating, pushing out of your comfort zone.

[00:27:06] But if you're about to fall off a ledge, then we're going to hold you.

[00:27:10] And so I share that to say sometimes the word family, if you describe it in corporate America, just sparks an emotion.

[00:27:18] So I'll tell you the behaviors that I've experienced here for 26 years.

[00:27:22] You can label it whatever we need to or want to.

[00:27:26] But I never left and I don't intend to.

[00:27:30] I think it's hard to create that.

[00:27:33] Two things on my end, Kim.

[00:27:35] One is how do you stay at a company for 26 years?

[00:27:38] I know, right?

[00:27:39] And I say that kind of jokingly, but serious too.

[00:27:43] And obviously you've had many careers within.

[00:27:46] That's right.

[00:27:46] But how do you, even changing careers, you're still at the same company.

[00:27:52] And it's very different today than it was when we all started in the workforce.

[00:27:56] But how do you do that?

[00:27:59] What's the mindset behind that?

[00:28:02] First of all, considering that yesterday someone at my daughter's school asked me if I was her grandma, maybe we could re-record this and not highlight that I've been there for 26 years.

[00:28:11] I didn't say that.

[00:28:12] I just asked how long you were there.

[00:28:14] Sorry.

[00:28:14] I'm going back to this place of yesterday.

[00:28:17] And it's hard for me to focus every time I hear 26 years.

[00:28:21] So we're just going to move right through that.

[00:28:23] Shall we just call you Grandma?

[00:28:25] Yeah, right?

[00:28:26] You're like, hey, Granny, what do you think about that?

[00:28:28] Don't encourage this.

[00:28:29] Don't encourage this behavior.

[00:28:31] Stop.

[00:28:32] Look, it's like you'll lit fire on this podcast today.

[00:28:35] We're in good company.

[00:28:37] So, you know, right?

[00:28:39] Here's what I...

[00:28:41] When people will ask me about how I've stayed here for so long.

[00:28:45] Number one, there are multiple different operating companies.

[00:28:48] There are multiple different specializations.

[00:28:50] And so I call them assignments.

[00:28:54] I've done so many assignments at Allegis that it felt like moving to different companies.

[00:29:00] And I know we'll say, oh, well, it's Allegis.

[00:29:02] Building Career Circle, a startup with no resources compared to when I was at Aerotech with all the resources in the world, could not have been two more different experiences, right?

[00:29:14] My time in national sales versus going into operations felt like a totally different company, a totally different experience.

[00:29:23] So I think if you go to a company and you stay in your comfort zone, you're choosing that.

[00:29:30] And that's fine.

[00:29:31] I mean, I'm not saying that that's go to bed.

[00:29:33] But what I chose to do is take on as many assignments in different, you know, from sales to operations to building a company, whatever it was, I had to very intentionally choose to move within the organization and gain new experiences, but not lose all those things that I just talked about.

[00:29:53] I don't know if you can find everywhere.

[00:29:55] Ryan, I thought you said you had two questions.

[00:29:57] Is that right?

[00:29:58] I do.

[00:29:59] Yeah.

[00:29:59] So, Kim, second question is Career Circle.

[00:30:02] So, first time, we'll just say first time company founder, builder.

[00:30:08] How do you approach that, right?

[00:30:11] So you've got the resources behind you, of course, and you've got a team that believed in you.

[00:30:17] But when you go from extreme doer to leader to now creating your own company, even though it's within a larger company, how do you approach that?

[00:30:27] How do you begin that process?

[00:30:30] Yeah.

[00:30:30] So the first thing that we did was really look at the need and industry.

[00:30:36] You know, if you're not solving a problem, you know.

[00:30:41] And then we looked at, okay, what would it take to build it?

[00:30:44] So building product.

[00:30:46] From there, I quickly realized going into the space of diversity, equity, and inclusion, advocacy.

[00:30:55] This is a really difficult problem that a lot of people have tried to solve, and it's hard work.

[00:31:00] So I knew early on that we needed, number one, smart people, for lack of a better word, gritty people that were willing to do the hard work and that could test and pivot quickly.

[00:31:13] All while doing discovery, again, with market fit.

[00:31:16] So culture was really important to me.

[00:31:20] I wanted to have a culture where everyone had a voice.

[00:31:23] I wanted to have, because I needed to hear all their perspective.

[00:31:26] It's a very difficult space.

[00:31:29] And then we also wanted to make sure that people could show up authentically themselves.

[00:31:35] I wanted people coming to the company every day, bringing their full selves.

[00:31:40] You know, sometimes I'm in a hot pink suit, head to toe, with a lot of energy and a lot of passion, because it starts with me, right?

[00:31:47] What is my true self so I don't have to figure out how to fit into this corporate America where I'm wasting brain power on that?

[00:31:56] So when I look at the company over the last five years, number one, product fit, always enhancing the technology so that we would test and pivot what's working, what's not working, and move fast.

[00:32:09] And then the people hire really smart people and unleash them and not just a piece of them, their full, authentic, wild sometimes selves so we could get out there and do some great work.

[00:32:24] So I want to talk a little bit about equity and not just the importance of equity, but is it your experience that people either get it or they don't?

[00:32:34] Or is it something that through education you can kind of convince maybe someone that didn't understand equity to then understand equity?

[00:32:45] Or people that maybe come from backgrounds where they have had a lack of equity and they want to make things better.

[00:32:56] Like, is it experience-based?

[00:32:58] Is it learning-based?

[00:33:00] Is it genetics?

[00:33:02] Is it just something you either get like innately or is it something that can be taught through a series of events, et cetera?

[00:33:12] Because, again, we talked at the very beginning of the show about how we feel like equity is under attack.

[00:33:18] All of them, I mean, equality, belonging, diversity, inclusion, all of them are under attack, but we're focused on equity for a second.

[00:33:26] Now it's like, okay, well, how do we solve that algebra?

[00:33:29] How do we solve the algebra of like, is it as simple as, okay, you don't get it?

[00:33:34] Moving on?

[00:33:36] Like, is it that simple?

[00:33:38] Like, what's your take on kind of getting people to a place and understanding those that kind of get it really fast?

[00:33:46] You know, because like I would assume that some of your conversations and some of your team's conversations, they're already ready.

[00:33:53] Like, they've been waiting for this call.

[00:33:55] That's right.

[00:33:56] And then there's a lot of people where you're pushing a boulder uphill and you might not ever be able to push the boulder all the way up the hill.

[00:34:03] Yeah.

[00:34:03] It's a great point.

[00:34:04] And I think that boulder is heavier and the hill is steeper lately.

[00:34:09] I mean, I'm just being super transparent.

[00:34:11] And I think it comes from, number one, personal experiences.

[00:34:16] And then it also sometimes comes from a place of fear.

[00:34:19] Well, and then also just emotion around it.

[00:34:23] If your definition becomes, I have to make this higher because of equity.

[00:34:28] Well, that's not the definition.

[00:34:30] Or if it's, well, if they get more, do I get less?

[00:34:33] Now I'm type, you know, there are all these personal experiences and top tracks that happen in people's minds.

[00:34:41] And so I often say I need to change a mind and a heart one person at a time.

[00:34:46] And I think the way to do that is through data.

[00:34:50] Because think about everything I just said.

[00:34:52] It's all built in emotion.

[00:34:55] I am having an emotional response, whether it's because of my personal experiences, my beliefs, my political affiliation, whatever it may be.

[00:35:03] It's leading to an emotional response that's significant.

[00:35:08] So when I look at the data, employers want the highest caliber candidate, right?

[00:35:15] Employers want higher productivity and culture.

[00:35:19] So if the data says, like if you look at career circle starts, we've increased our starts by 53% year to date.

[00:35:27] If you look across hiring practices and hiring data, no one is increasing hiring by 53%.

[00:35:34] And a lot of the organizations didn't say, Kim, I'm partnering with you because of DE&I.

[00:35:40] They said, I wanted the highest caliber candidate.

[00:35:43] Remember, I said they're outproducing by 7%.

[00:35:46] So sometimes I'll tell employers, let me focus on giving you the highest caliber candidate.

[00:35:51] I know behind the scenes, I'm also going to help you reflect the community that you live in and serve.

[00:35:57] So for me, I'm staying with the data.

[00:36:00] And along the way, let me see if there's a bridge that I can understand where your emotional response is coming from or your response in general.

[00:36:08] And how can we think through that?

[00:36:10] Kim, let's go back to leadership from the time that you've been doing what you're doing.

[00:36:16] So 26 years, right?

[00:36:18] Great.

[00:36:19] Great.

[00:36:19] Great.

[00:36:20] Right.

[00:36:21] I mean, he's killing me with the 26.

[00:36:23] Dude, seriously.

[00:36:23] Is this like a light show backup dancer coming out?

[00:36:25] I thought you were 26 years old.

[00:36:27] I was going for 26 years old.

[00:36:28] Will you stop saying how long she's working in the industry?

[00:36:32] No.

[00:36:33] Yeah, no.

[00:36:34] I mean, leave your feelings anymore when you join the podcast.

[00:36:39] Get the hits.

[00:36:40] Get the hits, son.

[00:36:42] Seriously.

[00:36:42] I just wanted to ask, how has leadership changed in your view from five years ago?

[00:36:52] We'll go five years.

[00:36:53] How has leadership changed over that time frame?

[00:36:56] From the time you came into your first leadership role to now, how are you doing things?

[00:37:00] Or are you doing things differently?

[00:37:03] Yeah.

[00:37:03] Well, in full transparency, there was a point that it seemed like everybody on the team looked the same, acted the same, had the same background.

[00:37:11] I'm just being really honest.

[00:37:12] So there was one style of leadership, and it pretty much worked for everybody because everybody looked the same and had, you know, all the same.

[00:37:19] I'll tell you, when we launched Career Circle and I went in my first meeting with the development team and I was leading them like I was sales and recruiting.

[00:37:27] And one of the guys tapped me and he's like, yeah, you need a do-over on that, you know?

[00:37:31] And so, but again, we had a culture of transparency.

[00:37:38] So I'm like, thank you, Jim.

[00:37:40] But I would tell you, when I look across the organization today and when I think about my leadership, it is such a diverse group of brilliant individuals with different skills, different backgrounds.

[00:37:54] And so I, number one, I'm slower when I think about looking at the results, especially if, let's say someone's not meeting expectations.

[00:38:05] Well, I'm going all the way back to figure out what is their superpower that I want to unleash even more?

[00:38:10] And then where is there a gap that I can then give them mentors, sponsors, coaching, resources, whatever they may need?

[00:38:19] So simply put, I would say there used to be, when I wasn't as strong, a broad, like a wide breast, you know, stroke of here's how to be great here.

[00:38:29] And what I've learned is there's a ton of different ways to be great here.

[00:38:34] I want to tap into your personal way.

[00:38:36] So not only do you get the results, you actually like coming to work.

[00:38:41] Yeah, I kind of, I feel like, I think a comment, I feel like both of you are going to have a different take on this or a different thought on it.

[00:38:47] But how much of bad performance can be put on the company versus the actual person?

[00:38:55] And by put on the company, meaning we're not leveraging the person the way that we should.

[00:38:59] We're expecting them to do things they just can't do or shouldn't be doing.

[00:39:04] I'll go first.

[00:39:05] Yeah, I think it's 80-20.

[00:39:07] I'll use the 80-20 rule.

[00:39:09] I think it's 80% the company's fault and 20% the individual's fault.

[00:39:14] And why I think that is, is if you don't know the person's capabilities and you're expecting them, you've clearly communicated what the expectations, et cetera, then that's on you as a leader, as a manager.

[00:39:29] That's on you.

[00:39:30] That's on a company basis.

[00:39:32] Now, if they just don't do it, well, yeah, then there's some personal ownership there.

[00:39:37] But I would lean heavily on, okay, if you're a good manager and a good leader, you've done the things to communicate.

[00:39:45] Maybe even shown them how to do something and encourage them.

[00:39:50] Hey, listen, you're going to try.

[00:39:51] Maybe you'll find a different way or a better way.

[00:39:53] This is how I would do it.

[00:39:55] You've done all that hard work of communicating, maybe even over communicating, and then it's up to them.

[00:40:01] That's right.

[00:40:03] Yeah.

[00:40:03] I mean, I would agree.

[00:40:04] My leadership team knows don't think about parting with someone unless you can look in the mirror and know you have done everything in your power to make them great.

[00:40:16] That's right.

[00:40:17] It's easy.

[00:40:18] I mean, I say this.

[00:40:19] It's easy to blame the employee.

[00:40:22] Sure.

[00:40:22] It's so easy.

[00:40:24] It's lazy.

[00:40:25] That's exactly the right word, Ryan.

[00:40:26] It's lazy to just say, damn it, it's Jim's fault.

[00:40:30] Yeah.

[00:40:30] Yeah.

[00:40:31] It's Lauren's fault, and we've just got to get rid of Lauren.

[00:40:35] And then that's the thing.

[00:40:36] I've always found it fulfilling to actually look back at yourself and say, we could probably do better.

[00:40:43] Yeah.

[00:40:43] No, not probably.

[00:40:44] You could always do better.

[00:40:46] And so I like that.

[00:40:48] I like that whether or not that's a written rule or kind of an inherent rule of like before you do a layoff to really look at yourself and think to yourself, okay, do we give this person every opportunity to shine, to thrive?

[00:41:02] Do we really create an environment for them to thrive, or did we just throw them into a pit and expect them to thrive?

[00:41:10] That's right.

[00:41:11] Last question for me is, wouldn't it see if you had kind of a mission statement or a coda or something like that?

[00:41:18] Like, I have one, and I've had it for years.

[00:41:21] It's the same one.

[00:41:22] It's do right and fear no man.

[00:41:26] And it's an old phrase.

[00:41:28] It goes back ways.

[00:41:29] But I saw it at Del Frisco's behind the bar after about 12 martinis.

[00:41:37] So I saw this sign.

[00:41:39] That's what it said.

[00:41:41] I took a picture of it, Ryan.

[00:41:42] I'm good.

[00:41:44] So I looked at it, and I'm like, that gives me the confidence to just do what I know in my heart is the right thing and then let the chips fall where they may.

[00:41:53] And so it's given me – like, it was already in me.

[00:41:57] Like, I just didn't have a phrase.

[00:41:59] And it was already in me.

[00:42:01] Do you have something like that that helps you, that drives decision-making, et cetera?

[00:42:07] Yeah.

[00:42:07] About five or six years ago, I was at an executive wellness retreat, and we went through this really deep exercise around what was important to us.

[00:42:16] And we basically wrote a mission statement.

[00:42:18] I'm looking up because I ended up putting it on a scroll in my office, and it served myself and others courageously in pursuit of a joyful life.

[00:42:28] And a couple parts in there were important.

[00:42:30] Number one, I inserted myself because I have a tendency to give so much to others that if I'm not careful, I don't think about my own cup, so I put that in there.

[00:42:40] And then courageously because I think life gets really hard and fear gets in our way.

[00:42:45] But if we go after it with courage, and if we're scared, still do it, I think that's really important.

[00:42:50] And then it's wrapped up with the joy piece because life is short, and I think we have an opportunity for ourselves, for our families, for our companies.

[00:43:02] When you can create joy as a part of winning, life just looks easier, and you're more fun to be around.

[00:43:11] And I think your family benefits as well.

[00:43:15] Brian, you good?

[00:43:16] I think we're good.

[00:43:17] Kim, that's a beautiful way to end.

[00:43:20] Thank you so much for coming on and gracing us with these great knowledge bombs.

[00:43:25] Thank you so much.

[00:43:26] Thank you all for listening, for watching.

[00:43:28] If you see us out there, come say hello, like, subscribe everywhere.

[00:43:32] And if you have a moment, you're on your favorite podcast app, feel free to drop a review.

[00:43:36] Those always help us as well.

[00:43:39] Kim, thank you very much.

[00:43:40] Thank you so much for the opportunity.