From Bootstrapping to Venture Capital: Erling Linde’s Entrepreneurial Journey

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[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So we have Erling on today with us as a guest and we're going to be learning all

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_00]: about his journey. Erling, would you do us a favor in the audience a favor and

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_01]: introduce yourself? Yeah, sure. My name is Erling Lindes. I am the founder and

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_01]: CEO of a software as a service company called CV Partner. Today I'm in our Toronto

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_01]: office where I just relocated one and a half weeks ago from Norway.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. CV Partner, what do we do? CV Partner, we are going to change the

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: name later this year because as I'm here in North America to expand CV Partner we

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_01]: realize that CV which is European for resume doesn't always resonate with the Americans

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_01]: so but we deal with resumes slash CVs. In particular we help or we provide a solution

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_01]: for professional service firms like PWC or Capgemini or WSP. So big consulting,

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_01]: engineering law firms. They obviously their most important asset is their people and

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_01]: their expertise and in order to win business in particular when they bid for public

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: tenders, frame agreements, public bids and proposals they need to present and showcase

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_01]: these people in the best possible way and show that they have the experience, the

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_01]: certificates, the education necessary so that they win these bids. They use our

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_01]: solution, our software to do that so we streamline that for them.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_00]: See I think curriculum, Vyte if I pronounce that correctly it sounds just better, it

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_00]: sounds more professional than resume. Resume kind of just sounds a little, I don't

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_00]: know, amateurish.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_02]: It does, it's hard. I have, this is me, this is me internally, nobody else. I

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_02]: have a problem saying cheers which is off topic but kind of not. Like CV I'm just

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_02]: like if an American says cheers they're trying to be something different. I don't

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_02]: know, it's just an internal lock I have. So I agree the name change is probably a good

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Well for years the only people that would say CV or curriculum Vyte were educators

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_00]: here in the state so in the times that you were scientists, in the times that

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_00]: you'd meet somebody that had a CV, it was a multi page multi thing because of research

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and publications and all that is a CV. And I think the resume became popular because

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_00]: it was so, like okay it's one page.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah for the common folk we have resume.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah for the common folk. All the other folks that aren't common you've got something

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_00]: else but

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_00]: You have a CV, I've got a resume.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_00]: No judgment, no judgment. Alright so when did you when did you found the company?

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I started the company in 2012 so it's quite a while ago.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah it's been a fun journey. We, I guess my, I started my career as a software

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_01]: developer before I started this company. So coming from that background I was obviously,

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, I was able to build the prototype and initial software but I did not have a

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_01]: clue about running a business, selling, negotiating a contracts, anything like that.

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's been a learning journey and I did this together with my co-founder and

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_01]: eventually we expanded hired more people but we did it kind of on our own just growing

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_01]: organically without any funding for 10, 11 years and then last year we took our first

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of venture capital investment which allowed us to double the company in size.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So now we're like 40, 45 people in five countries.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_02]: That's interesting. So let's, I know we're going to talk about you and your journey

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_02]: but let's start there with funding. There's a lot of people that listen to this show

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_02]: that are founders, first time founders, maybe even second time they've gone through some,

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_02]: you know their first couple didn't work out but they're contemplating the idea of

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_02]: funding. Do I do around the funding? Do I want to give up part of my company?

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_02]: All of those battles that we hear about on Shark Tank and all these other shows,

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_02]: right? Exactly.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_02]: You made a comment just now you said we took funding, we doubled the size of

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_02]: our company. Talk about that a little bit. Is that something you wanted to do or should

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_02]: have done earlier? Was it just the right time? What was the process in your mind there?

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_01]: It was, I mean obviously we contemplated and debated this for 10 years before we did

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_01]: it so now we're one year into it so I've done some reflections on that. I think

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_01]: for me professionally and it was good to take it slow the initial years because I

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_01]: had to kind of learn the hard way, how to sell, how to demo our products, how to negotiate

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_01]: a contract, how to hire people, pay salaries, all that stuff. I was able to spend six months

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_01]: on figuring this problem out and then the next problem and the next problem but at

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_01]: some point I think we got to a point where okay we actually have some plans now if

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_01]: we do this in our own pace where the only funding is obviously getting new customers

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_01]: which by the way has been, it was a good thing for 10 years to actually like okay

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_01]: we want to do this but before you can hire this person we need to fund it so what

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_01]: do we need to do? We need to get another client and that was a good focus, healthy

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_01]: focus to have for a business I think to chase clients not investors because we did

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: see some companies get sidetracked they only chase investors and then you need

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_01]: to have clients. Essentially you do need to have happy clients to have a healthy

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_01]: business and sustainable business over time even if you get funding but we just saw that

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_01]: okay we have these plans if we do it on our own it's going to take three to five

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_01]: years if we get this funding we can do it in six months, 12 months time so that's

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_02]: what kind of you know made. I want to take a break real quick just to let you

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_02]: know about a new show we've just added to the network Up Next at Work hosted by

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Gene and Kate Akil of the Devin Group fantastic show if you're looking for

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_02]: something that pushes the norm pushes the boundaries has some really spirited

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_02]: conversations Google Up Next at Work Gene and Kate Akil from the Devin

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Group. Let's do the decision so there's been learning and then we've

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_01]: been you know this last year we learned a lot how to spend that

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_01]: money wisely and all in all it's been the right decision for us and

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_01]: definitely kind of shifted us to another level I think that's also when you

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_01]: get some external people into the board and things like that you do get some

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_01]: new input and you get potentially people that have experienced and seen

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_01]: other journeys and then they can compare and help you calibrate a little bit.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_00]: What I love about this Erling is that ten years of bootstrapping you'll learn

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_00]: fiscal discipline. Yes. You know it was forced on you because you can only do

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_00]: so much with client revenue and so I think you know you were in a better

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_00]: position to take on around the funding because it's not like you

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_00]: were gonna go crazy with money your investors are gonna help you but you

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_00]: were also already kind of trained yourself you and your co-founder

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_00]: you already kind of trained yourself on how to not go crazy with money and so I think

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_00]: it's I think that's that's gonna help you with your success and your growth.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah we definitely kind of know how to do that and then even if we

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_01]: struggle that for some time we know we can always go back and find

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_01]: it so that that's been very helpful I think timing wise is like you

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_01]: know after ten years like it was the right time for us right the founders

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_01]: the business but could we have now that we've done it could we have done it

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_01]: sooner yeah maybe a few years sooner but not like ten years sooner for us if

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_01]: that wasn't the right journey and maybe we could have done it a few years

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_01]: sooner and then you know coincidentally like you know we raised

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: money in 2023 if we had raised it in 2020 or 21 when there was crazy

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: valuations you know the COVID pandemic that kind of inflated the

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_01]: better deal like valuation wise. Here's the deal though you would have gotten a

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_00]: better deal on valuation then but if you do a second round you got crushed

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_00]: exactly those that raise money that are having a hard time raising again at

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_00]: that valuation much less a higher valuation so the raise in 23 it was

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_00]: harder it was harder probably more painful the valuation was lower but

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_00]: the next time you do a raise let's say the economy does better which I think it

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_00]: will your next raise you'll raise that valuation and I think it I think

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_00]: it'll actually prove to be a good thing not a bad thing did you have

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_00]: board meetings before but you know did you have some non-example or

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_01]: independent board members? Not really not really I mean mostly it's been

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_01]: the founding team and of course yeah so they had board meetings but you know

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_01]: was it the dinner?

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_00]: We're gonna go to Switzerland and have a retreat it's a board retreat.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a great question. There's so many companies that are

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_02]: small they're like ah we don't need this oh well we do but we don't and I

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_02]: think and William you have more experience with this that can help

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_02]: accelerate your company for sure. 100%. Yeah I think as a small

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_00]: business having a board of advisors yeah because the board directors

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_00]: because it's in the states of fiduciary duty there's all kinds of

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_00]: rules and it's a little bit harder because actually the board runs the

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_00]: company the management team and the executives don't run the company

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_00]: they're agents for the shareholders and so there's all kinds of rules and

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_00]: all kinds of legal and minutes have to be taken there's a lot of all

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_00]: kinds of things that have to happen whereas a group of advisors and Ryan

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_00]: this is probably us talking to ourselves surrounding yourself with a

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_00]: that fiduciary duty I think is wise. Erling I know Ryan wants to go

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_00]: backwards and I think it's probably wise that we do so we learn a little

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_00]: bit about your journey let's go back to I don't know 16 17 year old Erling

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_00]: what did you want to be? What was your dream to be in life?

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Well that's a very good question. You did mention Vikings earlier and to some extent

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_01]: that's probably influenced me slightly so I grew up in this small seaside town

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_01]: in Norway we had this like big hill where it used to be a Viking ship

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_01]: that's been dug up and pulled up from there. I also grew up with

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_01]: lots of stories about shipping, whaling which obviously is not politically very

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_01]: correct these days either but as Vikings but also like polar

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_01]: expeditions like all these like adventures was a once a team from

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_01]: my city that they were going to start production of tinned turtles on

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_01]: which ended pretty badly but that's all these like adventurous stories I think

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_01]: influenced me a bit and also I was like always maybe not at 16 years of age

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_01]: but younger than that I always like loved building things like Lego

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: model airplanes really loved building things I think by the time I was 16 I

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_01]: think it was more like computer games slowly started learning

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_01]: how to program build websites stuff like that so I think those two kind of

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_01]: influences from my childhood like building things I'm exploring or you

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_01]: know that or expeditions like that that's kind of where the building a

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_01]: company being an entrepreneur probably started shaping me a bit and I

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_01]: remember obviously when I was applying to university how there's like it's

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_01]: probably very different system in Norway than in the US but basically not like

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_01]: this big catalog with all the universities with all the classes you

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_01]: you had to there was like in order to get in you had to have like

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_01]: certain grades and there's like they were all like different different

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_01]: criteria to get in I remember I checked one of them submitted it in the

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and my dad was like what are you like just what happens if you don't get in

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_01]: it's like I was computer science so so so so so I guess to some extent I was

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_02]: determined to get the rest of the software business yeah so when you

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_02]: started when you were around 16 started to get into development build websites

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_02]: all of that is that is it did you have influences there that said because

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_02]: you mentioned the influence there drove you into entrepreneurship did you have

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_02]: influences around you other businesses family businesses that drove you that

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_02]: way or was this something you picked up when you started to I think

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_02]: all of us had this at this time we're all about the same age here you start

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_02]: developing websites I can sell this I could do this stuff right and and I

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_02]: think that planet the bug for a lot of people what was that the same for

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_01]: you I think yeah I would say it's like I probably started with like

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_01]: computer games to be honest and then I should start playing them eventually

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_01]: you know you learn something you start thinking was like what's under

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_01]: modify this or do that so so so that you know lots of hours kind of wasted

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_01]: on that but still I think it was the gateway

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_00]: originally there was only like that he will allow in like he was very

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_01]: protective that window so so I think the entrepreneurial commercial thing

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_01]: later I think was when I started the university went to obviously computer

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_01]: science but I also was part of found in this like kind of financial

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_01]: interest group or we had our we raised some money to do some chair

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_01]: trading so I can sort of learn from that and then we go like they I

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_01]: think the head of the central bank in Norway like lot of these traders

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and backers they came in and you know explain how this financial stuff

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_01]: so that was I did that on the side for some years and that's probably like

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_01]: what maybe helped me kind of you know not only do their software right

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_01]: development but where did you go to where'd you go to university so that

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: was in Norway and yeah what what city were you Trondheim it's called

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_01]: like in the center basically yeah yeah it's a fun city to study in

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_01]: because you know 30,000 students 100,000 people live there so yeah after after

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_00]: school after university what was what was what was the first gig would you

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_01]: do right after that so my first job was Norwegian consultancy but I was

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: there for a year or two and then I moved to London in the UK so worked

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_01]: more like international consultancy there for some time and then eventually

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_01]: transitioned into this company called forward internet group it was kind of a

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: conglomerate of multiple startups so this was heavily influenced at the

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_01]: time I think by all these kind of startup books like the lean startup

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_01]: was very very on the top of the hype at the mall at that time everyone you

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_01]: know you just start with something you iterate get feedback adjusts

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_01]: eventually becomes the business which was kind of what I did in the end

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_01]: so yeah was it technical consulting like I would assume yeah software

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_01]: absolutely okay so but I learned a lot there got to work with some really

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_01]: really good people and the our CTO at John's bowling I go I worked with

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_01]: him there so that's you know our third hire even though we were in the region

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_01]: company our third hire was in the UK so we've been very internationally focused

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I would say since since the very beginning now what time frame are we in

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_02]: here because you mentioned pre Facebook for your for your fun stuff

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_02]: that's a long time ago now your consultancy what where we at here we

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_02]: close to to the journey oh my goodness bad-touching harassment sex violence

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_02]: fraud threats all things that could have been avoided if you had Fama stop

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_01]: hiring dangerous people Fama.io yeah now we're like 2011 probably

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_02]: we're right there about to set off on the journey what pushed you over the edge

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_01]: so I think it was a combination so I moved back to to to Norway my dad had

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_01]: passed away just like year before or something and I had to decide what to

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_01]: do with my life career basically and having all these like influences from

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_01]: living in London like the startup thing I just you know maybe this is the

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_01]: time to actually do something and I had a lot of terrible ideas

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_01]: but one of them was related to this so it's like you know a resume

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_01]: generator for job seekers or applicants like so so so so I built

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_01]: like a UI built something I came out had this thing and I went out for dinner

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_01]: with some friends that started a consultancy I talked about this and

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_01]: they're like hey but you know we actually spent like the last two weeks

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_01]: we worked evenings putting these resumes together copy pasting formatting

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_01]: into these public templates and I was at pain and I said like well that

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: sounds easy to fix let me build a tool for you and they became our first

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: pilot customers basically and we went from there and your co-founder when did

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_00]: you have your co-founder when you find your co-founder and what's the

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_01]: relationship I think like a week after I moved back to Norway it went to

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_01]: something called a startup weekend where you have a problem a bad idea

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_01]: 48 hours and then you present it and it was I think I can't remember it

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_01]: something about like if you're buying a new flat but you could check if it was

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_01]: like a noisy like it was a tram outside or you know and we tried to use some

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: public data for that pull that together and sell it to real estate

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_01]: agents but that it wasn't a sustainable business on its own but

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_01]: there was fun and obviously his his expertise was on the user experience

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_01]: from here is interaction designer so so I met him there I continued on my

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_01]: own for about the first time or something and then you know I had this

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_01]: like prototype I had a pilot customer and they you know they looked at me

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and said you know this is awesome functionality but it looks terrible

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_00]: exactly you're not the first to hear that your babies really but it

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_00]: worked and that's what more important to probably you is it's got

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_00]: to work it's gotta be the functions got to work it worked it just need to be

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_01]: prettier exactly yeah so I called him my co-founder and he was finishing

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_01]: university I think at the time I was like what's your plan and he's like

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll come and work for you okay

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and then that's was it's how all great journeys get started it's like

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_00]: what are you doing I have no clue I'm actually I'm evicted from my apartment

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_02]: in about 17 days just spent 80,000 on on school we got a job no no job yeah

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm good so you skipped over a part I want to go back you said you had a

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_02]: couple of bombs some failure oh yeah and then you went through to success

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_02]: let's go backward order some of these terrible ideas that you thought

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_02]: idea worst idea come on I love when people do that they're like I have some

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_01]: really shitty ideas but in 2001 I'm not sure the worst one but like I did I

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: did obviously tell you about this like you know resume generator right for

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: for job seekers and I remember so I had built it I set up some Google

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_01]: there was traffic coming in a few people signed up used it but it's like

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_01]: you tried to charge for it like you try to create a healthy model and then I

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_01]: started that like let's say I started charging $10 to use it and you get

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_01]: like you know people are looking for jobs they might not even have money

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_01]: right or they're not like they want to save time but again they have

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: time because they might not have a job so it's like you know for them

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_01]: paying for it I remember so since I got you know all the feedback you had a few

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_01]: people signing up but also a lot of people dropping off because it cost

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_01]: right right right and I remember I like lower the price five dollars

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_01]: two dollars I remember I got some email like one dollar for this that's

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_01]: insane okay I told my I told my grandmother at the time because she

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_01]: was still like and I was like I'll have this new software business like I'm

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_01]: running us Dean started testing out these ideas and you know right now I'm

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_01]: making $10 a month but she was like every year she like you know for

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_01]: years she was like are you still just making $10 a month she wouldn't let

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_02]: go she would not let go the real question there was do you need grocery

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_01]: money that's what that was exactly I guess that B2C pivoted into B2B and it

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_00]: turned out to be easier to well there's a lesson in there in terms of pricing

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_00]: because the lower you the lower you make pricing yeah the people

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_00]: perception the value exactly right like if you would have charged more

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_00]: look if we went back and you said no it's actually $50 yeah that's good

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_00]: perception of people then I'm now it's got to back it up but the perception

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_00]: would be well this is valuable yeah but like this is this is where we get

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_00]: it with entrepreneurs this is where we get this is these these are decisions

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_00]: that we make that we don't think oh well I'll just lower the price by

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_00]: 99 cents or a dollar or whatever and more people want it and it's

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_00]: counterintuitive it's like no they don't trust it as much Ryan my worst

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_00]: was a company called since a train so it's since it since it since a train so

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_00]: it was sensitivity training okay now imagine my personality doing

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_00]: sensitivity that's a horrible idea I mean the idea of sensitivity training

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_00]: is a good idea me doing sensitivity training is a horrible idea yeah so

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and I got a whole list I got a whole we go through a bunch of domains I got

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_00]: tons of terrible ideas so I get that bit Arlene so you pivoted quickly one

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_00]: of things I want to know about the relationship you have with your co

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_00]: founder is co-founders you know develop you know differently and they

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_00]: have different relationships so when you when you we talked to co-founders

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_00]: you know it's like they handle this side of business I handle this side

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_00]: business or hell we're together every day either virtually or otherwise we're

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_00]: drinking beer you know whatever like it's a friendship like partnership

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_00]: friendship and there's no right or wrong that's just what's the

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_00]: relationship that you have with your with your co-founder I think it was

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_01]: definitely like in the beginning it was you know we saw each other every

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_01]: we went out we you know we spent a lot of time in the office it was you know

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_01]: we even you know woke up in the office sometimes back to work right it was

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_01]: like we were colleagues and we're friends but I think you know that's

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_01]: quite intense right and you get to learn each other so much you know in

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_01]: many ways and and asked you grow and you know you have to kind of I don't

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_01]: know we have to it's kind of for us I think we kind of had to slowly make a

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_01]: decision is it like are you going to be best friends are you going to be

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_01]: you know the best business partners there and it's hard to be both all

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_01]: the time at least so I guess you kind of it's still obviously very

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_01]: good friends but we're not socializing that much on top of the

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_00]: business as we used to if you have that and again some partnerships can do this

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_00]: where you're always together like you're married you have kids and all

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_00]: the other stuff always together and and that could be a strain like a

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_00]: partnership at least it's been explained to me is another marriage

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah yeah it's definitely you know at least my spouse she calls

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_01]: David Parker my sort of third child so you know and it is it is definitely like

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_02]: that so well let's get into I like motivation I like to understand what's

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_02]: the motivation behind you so you've had down you've had ups right we get

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_02]: peaks and valleys what's that motivator that you look back to to say let's

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_02]: not necessarily looking at faith and things like that but from a business

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_01]: perspective what continues to drive you yeah I guess I mean I know it like they

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_01]: overarching thing I think is that the building something so for me it's like

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_01]: as long as I can see a path to it kind of us getting to the next stage

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_01]: whether that's in kind of growing the business number of customers of

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_01]: metric and the money coming in all that but essentially it's about building it

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and building it bigger and and and I think and that also links with me

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_01]: obviously developing personally learning new things and mastering up but but

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_01]: that I would say is like all since the beginning is like the first you

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_01]: know first year was about you know obviously building a product that

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_01]: someone wanted getting the first customer you know that our first

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_01]: customer they were 80 employees or something they didn't pay us that much

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_01]: but it was like validation right there was validation and then we chase the

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_01]: next customers who get your second customer and then at some point it was

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_01]: about getting the first sort of slightly larger customer right and when

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_01]: that happened it was about getting the first Swedish customer and then

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_00]: that's just a new one and I'm just setting new goals you reach a goal

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_00]: did you just set up right away you just said a new goal exactly I

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a little bit like that I'm sure you read there's like seven habits of

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_01]: highly successful people is like that sort of circle of influence that

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_01]: resonates with me because you know you're kind of sometimes things are just

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_01]: they are the outer your reaches like it's it's too too far away but but

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_01]: as you grow you get to do more stuff and seek those bigger and

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_00]: bigger opportunities I think people are wired this way so Ryan's Ryan you

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_00]: went through a phase where you're competing in strongest man competitions

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_00]: etc so you spent a fair amount of time in the gym I've got a younger son

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_00]: that's in cross-country and last night he ran a seven minute mile so

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_00]: he gets done with his mom he gets done with his mom he's drenched and he

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_00]: goes I'm gonna I'm gonna beat six I'm gonna beat that by ten seconds

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_00]: tomorrow like that's his first thought before he even has water is he crosses

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_00]: the line and he's like I'm gonna beat that by ten seconds tomorrow I'm like

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not necessarily wired that way but it seems like you and Ryan are wired

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_00]: that way like you set a goal and the moment you hit that goal you're like

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_02]: okay new goal as long as it's not running you lost me at mile yours was

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_00]: yours was weights it seems like you and Ryan are kind of built that way

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_00]: that you reach a goal and all of a sudden you set that next goal okay once

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_00]: you get to that goal it's like okay the next goal and I like I mean not

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_00]: every entrepreneur does that you know you know that's not every the wiring of

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_00]: every entrepreneur what are the question that I have is what are the

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_00]: types of people that thrive around you like what do you need like you

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_00]: know what you do and what you're good at yeah what do you what do you need

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_01]: so I guess I need obviously the user experience and sort of and then I would

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_01]: say my sort of right hand Astrid she's our CEO she is below planning and

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_01]: having order so I'm I I like I like facts so I'm a you know yeah

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I like that that sort of that's easier for me like to deal with it's true or

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_01]: false and then but still you know always chasing that next goal once I

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of figured out enough details in my head that that's enough for me I

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_01]: can just go I don't need to ponder on it for a long time so so someone

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_01]: who can sort of you know clean up a bit of the mess and plan a little

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I had some times and you know that's super helpful for me I think it sounds

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of very familiar right does this not sound very familiar that there's

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_00]: there's people that loves like I'll just give myself I love strategy yeah I

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_00]: hate tactics like I get I get bored when it gets tactical yeah yeah here's

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_00]: an idea I'll see tomorrow but I was a horrible consultant because I would

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_00]: give people the advice and and then they wouldn't take it and it would it would

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_00]: wreck me because I'm like I told you how to do the thing like all you got to

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_00]: do is do it and so as a horrible consultant but tactics I've grown

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_00]: appreciative more appreciative that this put my in my in my career I

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_00]: appreciate people that can do tactics yes they could they could be they can

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_00]: live in that project management software that can actually live in in in

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_00]: those things that in the weeds and the things that I don't even think I

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_00]: can do I mean it's easy for me to say that I don't like it but I don't

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_00]: even know if I could do it even if I tried exactly and I also think I'm

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_01]: better at leading than managing so so so I the people that report to me I think

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_01]: they try best when you know I can set the direction and they can sort of go

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_01]: with that and then they can manage other people but if you need like

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of hands-on management and I I'm not always there chasing the next

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_01]: traveling or you know it's it's that I'm a horrible manager I'll just say it

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_00]: out loud horrible horrible manager it's just it's just not in me so it's a

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_02]: good part though I think this is a point of contention for a lot of

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_02]: people we've had this discussion a lot yeah where it's like you're the

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_02]: top salesperson then you get promoted to the sales leader and you

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_02]: talk right yeah really bad at it right so but baby let's talk about that I

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_02]: think we can all share war stories here but since this is about you we'll

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_02]: ask you leadership leading the company versus managing the company what's the

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_02]: big difference and how did you how did you in your mind other than just

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: knowing what was that trigger that said I can never be a people manager

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I've got a lead so so much I think obviously we've grown through faces and

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_01]: this you know we always been sort of very flat organization we really have

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_01]: that hierarchy but as we're growing obviously putting some more hierarchy

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_01]: in place and I guess it's just true true learning having different people

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_01]: reporting to me I kind of you know when someone you know comes back and

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_01]: asking a bit more for that sort of day-to-day follow up or you know I have

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_01]: to help people look their things are managed their time you know stuff like

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_01]: that I guess I'm not good at it so I get feedback that they're not getting

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_01]: enough of it and also I don't like doing it so I think that's a

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_01]: realization really and then but they also started realizing you know

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_01]: people have different needs and some people are good at leading some are

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_01]: good at managing somewhere get up their job but man it's all fine right

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_01]: just they have to be as you point out you have to be at the right place

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_00]: last question for me is advice you give your younger self so right out of

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_00]: right out of school so we won't go further back than that but right out

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_00]: of university maybe your senior year your latter part of the university

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_00]: what what advice now knowing what you know all of the good the bad the

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_00]: ugly all that stuff what advice would you give yourself now I think it's

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_01]: definitely sort of to to to hang in there and also just like emotionally I think

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_01]: it's like over the years you've been through so much so that you're starting

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_01]: to get a bit not so affected by all the all the ups and downs but in the

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_01]: beginning it's like it's like for that right you know this this is you

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_01]: know the difference between succeeding and failing is so and there is like

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_01]: all these I was very good at sort of extrapolating so if we have let's

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_01]: ten customers and one other like potentially not wanting their customers

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_01]: something I would like all that's the start of a snowball everything's going

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_01]: badly now have to fix that right it was a good thing because I kind of

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_01]: then fixed it but the emotional effort I put into it sounds too much

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_01]: setting so that I started so I've learned to deal with better because

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_01]: now you just expect something this like out of you know every day wake

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_01]: up it's like then things going right then things go wrong

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_00]: even kill you teach yourself hey listen it's gonna be okay yeah you're gonna

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_00]: have high highs and yeah you'll have some low lows but but just just stay

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_00]: steady be able to even kill I love that that's great now it's hard to

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_00]: follow but great

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_02]: amazing thank you so much for the for the time we know that you're super

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