Jack Spencer, Founder at Freeflexer, What It Takes to Realize the Flexible-First Future of Work

[00:00:04] Alright Jack, so this is going to be an exciting one because you want me to actually talk a little bit Yeah, I thought we could do something different Yeah, and for you listeners out there, I'll just give that, let me brag about you Jack for a little bit For you listeners out there, so we met a year and a half, year ago, right? We were both sitting next to each other in the audience and we were like, the hell haven't I met you before? You were early at Juno and you've just been sort of a beast in the space

[00:00:33] Feast in the best way possible, I don't know if that translates to the British audience But so, I think when it comes to, and also part of where I love where you're looking as well is You're not blinded by, hey, it has to be marketplaces or it has to be an EOR Or it has to be an FMS, you also do touch the client side So you're able to still have kind of that both sides of, well, if it doesn't make sense I can call it out, and so, yeah, so for you listeners

[00:01:01] There's an exciting episode coming up for you right now But Jack, I'll kind of throw it over for you What do you want to see in the next 40 minutes? Hey, look, I thought we could do this because it's an opportunity to get inside a little bit Around what the human cloud's joining And this relates to me as sort of my jumping on board human cloud I think you guys are in a real moment And I think it's worth exploring because when things are moving fast Sometimes you don't take enough time to explain what's happening

[00:01:29] And there's loads of exciting things in human cloud So before we focus on me, which is obviously my dream Let's talk a little bit around Like, what's new with human cloud? I know this little bit, and I think the productization of it is super exciting But I'd love to hear it from the horse's mouth Yeah, happy to, Jack So I'll start with, I'll be super, super clear problem solution Just to kind of make it like, try to crystallize it as clear as possible

[00:01:58] I think the problem that we're really solving And this is at the highest level Is this transition from a fixed and fragile To a flexible and resilient world and workforce That's it, right? And the problem is really, really hard on both sides For buyers, there's way too many solutions There's way too little data And it's really expensive to go through the typical discovery process For solutions, the ones that are really good They don't have sort of an equal playing field

[00:02:27] They don't have the massive PR budget They're not going to every conference possible And so they simply do not succeed at a program level They succeed at a very one-off project level Which is usually, you know, less than $10 million a year So that's sort of the problem we're going after The solution is kind of twofold One fold is, which is what everybody knows All right, we need to share the stories of success Because what gets an executive to move? A story of success And usually a story about their competitor, right? So now your competitor's doing

[00:02:57] So everybody knows about that That's the podcast, that's the media That's the newsletter, that's the speaking, whatever The second fold is the platform Which kind of, I've been thinking about this Since as early as 2016 I've started three marketplaces Was early at Gigster Built out the client side And when we look at what the human cloud platform is In one point, it's trying to bring clarity And it's trying to bring simplicity So it's trying to say, hey I need to get a Super Bowl ad done

[00:03:25] Help me understand how flexible talent solves my need Not gives me a bunch of talent acronyms, right? So it tries to make it very simple You're trying to get this done Here's what can help you And then it does start to take over the automation Of the discovery piece And so what a lot of buyers are stuck in If they're a large company They go to Deloitte for a 500k vendor analysis Or they go to consultants Or they go to GLG Alpha Sites Tegas Which ends up being us anyways

[00:03:54] And so it costs a lot of money It takes a lot of time And they just want to get stuff done, right? And so we do take over a lot of the automation On the discovery piece The second is Usually once you go beyond three marketplaces It just turns into a mess And so you're working with one marketplace at a time You're forcing them to go under either a VMS or an MSP Or a work enterprise And it just sucks for everyone And so very simply The problem that we're trying to solve Is this transition

[00:04:24] And the solution, you know Is making it really, really simple Having one interface to just create that connection With the right partner Now as you know, Jack That's really fucking hard And so that's where we get to, you know There's a lot of stuff in human cloud But I'll stop there That's the problem That's the solution And the only caveat I'd say Is this is something that Could not have been just built

[00:04:50] Without the underpinning of the media side And the framework Which is, hey Buyers need to trust That this isn't just a new feature Built by a team of 26-year-olds So it has kind of required that Infrastructure piece That has been painful I'd go further than that I think it wouldn't happen If you guys didn't have The category of expertise To actually underpin it And that's what's unique

[00:05:18] About human cloud in this space to me We live and work in a very, very fast Evolving category of technology And that's borne out In every RFP that I've ever been part of Or helped a customer create In that you get a real mixture Of different solutions All competing for the same business Which is so difficult For solutions and suppliers But really difficult for buyers as well To understand

[00:05:46] So one of the USPs here Certainly We've actually done the work We've actually helped the clients Or we've been on the supplier side And we know how it works That's what creates the difference And one of the toughest problems That, you know, I There's this weird tension Between, I would say The talent side And like everything else And so one of the biggest problems That we see If you're an entrepreneur Coming into the space Is do you sell to The exact business team

[00:06:15] Meaning that CMO That COO That CFO That CTO Do you go after them Who have usually big enough budgets But, you know, it's a different world Or do you sell to The procurement and TA team Well, it's two mutually exclusive Kind of go to markets And buying scenarios And contracts And so what it creates Is this I would argue These two different islands And we're living in a time now With layoffs and AI That I think It might be the catalyst That makes it

[00:06:45] So that the business team Has more power And the procurement teams Have to do what the business teams want And the reality is A business team Does not want to use The existing tools, right? They do not like Manual staffing firms They do not like An army of recruiters Giving generalized resumes And interview Like that That world is Kind of just Not efficient, right? With AI With that said The marketplaces Are trying to Kind of Do both In terms of Yes, we can talk

[00:07:14] With your procurement At the same time Go help you build A Super Bowl ad And that sucks for everyone Right? It's like Trying to run So one of the biggest Problems I think We've always been in And I think With Tony You know This is where Kind of Human Cloud I think we're a little unique Is that Tony's the public company CHRO He can talk talent with you I am not going to Talk procurement with you I kind of know how But I don't really want to And so we're going to talk Business, tech And what's ahead That's very different

[00:07:44] Than the staffing solution The talent solution That's going to tell you To post a job Build a resume Right? So there's also This kind of like Paradigm shift In terms of What is talent? Why do we care about it? Should there even be A procurement department Who's responsible For procuring talent? Like don't we already Have HR? So There's a lot of Org change That's also happening I think that's One of the big Catalysts You're right It's certainly Something I've seen The complexity

[00:08:13] And the size Of the businesses Has enormous impact On how those decisions Are made But also That comes down To people seeing Contingent or Extended External Flexible workforce As extra It's something That you add on To a business Rather than part Of your core Blended workforce Strategy And as we move From extra Like oh We need more people To deliver X That feels like A procurement problem To part of our Core delivery Issue is We need Access to better Skills We need more

[00:08:43] Agility in the market We need to Control costs That feels more like Core HR As that shift Happens I think we're Starting to see More and more Ownership Move around Businesses Not as fast As I'd like And I still Talk to loads Of organizations Where they Have a problem They know There's a problem Which is great Whose fault is it Or who's Actually going to Own it That's where It's all Silence It's all Crickets from There on Because it's Never sat Under anyone's Job's scope And even The word

[00:09:12] Like contingent Like let's just Sit back Right You're like Okay We're going to Name something It's going to Be really sexy It's going to Be technical It's going to Move the business Forward And you're like What's it called And you're like We're going to Call it contingent To me My brain goes to Oh this sounds Like clauses In an insurance Plan Right In case shit Happens Break glass And release talent Kind of Exactly And that's the Opposite of What we're Really doing

[00:09:42] Which is Hey we need To build This new Marketing department That's not a Contingency plan That's a Growth plan That's an Innovation plan Right It's totally Different And then If you put Here's The problem With the Industries Is Okay who's Going to Drive this New Marketing Initiative This EOR So It's kind Of like Unfortunately The industry That was built Is just not Right For getting Across the Line But there's This massive As you know Better than Anyone There's a

[00:10:12] Thousand plus Solutions That we would Say are Human cloud Solutions That are Just better Right And they're Not They don't Have the Baggage They're Net new They're AI native Yada yada Yada But that word Just cracks me up Like Boy Contingent Like Is this Really The word We want to Use The best We can do I've been Working on Something of A Glossary Of Terms And I'm Trying to Eradicate it As much As I Can But look Talk to me About If you're

[00:10:42] A marketplace And you Sort of Flow through The human Cloud Experience What does That feel Like What does That look Like Now that This is Around All the Money That we Used to Have to Spend On sales And marketing We can Just focus On what We're Already Doing Well And that's Going to Be Automatically Tracked And this

[00:11:12] Is where It is Different So if You look At the Platform We have Built Sort of These Agentic Growth Functions Whether It's We call It Kudos Which Is Feedback Or Business Case Agent Or The AISDR Agent We Basically Are Replicating What a Lot of The Big Firms Would Spend On PR And Marketing So That's The First Thing I Hope They Would Feel The Reality Is They'll Come In They'll See Their Profile Right Now They'll See This Thing Called

[00:11:51] The HC Score Is Driven By Very Quick Things Kudos Business Cases And The Actual Performance And Verification Meaning Did That Actually Happen So You Can Say I Worked With A Million Brands We're Going To Verify If Not Verified Not In The Score So That's The First Thing Is To Look This Is Where We Rank It'll Be Very Easy For Them To Say This Is Where They Rank In Marketing Or EOR Or Managed Service Or Various Layers Second Thing Is

[00:12:21] They Should Then Be Go Collecting Kudos And Business Cases And Actually Driving Their Score Up Now This Is Where Our Agents Should Make It Really Easy We Can Go Email Up To A Thousand Solutions At And You Can

[00:13:06] Go Collect Buyer Looks Like That's Looking At Flexible Talent One Of The Hardest Parts Of This Industry Is The Buyers There's No One ICP So We Go Back To It Might Be A CMO It Might Be A COO It Might Be A CFO What We Know With Human Cloud Because We've Been In

[00:13:41] Technology Enabled Way To Get Work Done So That's Why They're Coming To Heman Cloud So The Third Thing They'll See Is These Exact Buyers And The Platform Is Free For Buyers Because We Connect Them With Solutions So Solutions We'll

[00:14:11] And If They Need Help You Know As Anyone I'm Here To Make Sure Everything Goes Well Tell me About RFPs Quickly I Think It's A Tentpole Of The Whole Operation Really Like We've Got Massive Enterprise Customers Going Through Tendering RFPs Through The Platform People Should Hear About That A Bit Yeah I'll Tell You So We Have Around Five A Week Right Now Going Through I'll Give You The Why In RFP Because Some Solutions Have Never Done An RFP And It

[00:14:41] Looks Like A Waste Of Time It's Sort of This Hybrid Between If You Think About Someone That's Looking For Just An Individual Job And Someone That's Looking To Drive Strategic Workforce Planning It Sits In Between And So If Someone Is Looking For An Individual Freelancer Go To Upwork Not Human Cloud This Is For People That Are Spending A Million Plus On SICA Meaning The Buyers

[00:15:11] Is They Go And They Have To Manually Talk With Say Five To Fifteen Vendors Or Solutions At A Time It Takes One To Three Months And Literally They Go And They Have The Same Conversation Every Time The Solution Opens Up The Beautiful Pitchback Says They Can Do Everything But Then The Exact Answers They Don't Get Until One To Three Months Down The Road Right And So What The RFP Does Is It Gets Straight There And It Gets Some Custom Quotes And It Gets Them The Actual Data That They Need And

[00:15:41] It Cuts Down Three Months Of Sort Of That Vendor Analysis Is Time And Yeah That's That's Pretty Much It The Most Exciting Thing For Me With AI And That Kind Of Stuff Is The Data Compounds So If A Solution Does It Once It's Not Like It Just Goes Away It's Always Building Up They Also Can See Sort Of Where They Stand From An RFP Perspective And So If One Answer Is Terrible They'll Actually Get Ranked And

[00:16:15] Stuff But They'll See That Oh Wow Like This Answer We Keep Giving As A One Star Rating Compared To Every Like That's Terrible And So That's The RFPs For Solutions Out There There's Public And Private RFPs Public You Can Go And Apply To Private Which Is Where Most Sit It's Invite Only And I Come Back To The Beginning Part Mostly Driven By HC Score And Specialization And So What The Reason The Buyers Come To Us Is Because They're Like Listen Deloitte And Consultants Are

[00:16:44] Going To Give Us The Same List That We've Already Been Having For The Past Two To Ten Years But We Don't Want To Have To Do That Wrangling Ourself So That's Where We Automate A lot Makes Sense And That Of Alternative Solutions Out There Sort Of Based On Consultancy But Often That Data Is Self Reported Unchecked Unvalidated

[00:17:14] Or Paid For It's Behind Door Number Three And Paid For We Like We've Had To So Because Of Having To Survive As A Solution Only Funded Model Especially For Five Years Before The Platform The Amount Rankings It's Just So Not Known I'm Not Even Going To Go Good Or Bad I'm Just Going To Say Not

[00:17:44] Known And So If You Want To Be In The Everest Report If You Want To Be In The Gartner Reports They'll Never Say Hey You Have To Pay To Be In Here So They're Very You Got To Go To The Conferences You Got To Have That Stuff If You Pay To Have Them Host A Webinar If You Pay Them To Do So

[00:18:14] It's Just They're Going To Know You Better So Yeah It Doesn't Mean It Doesn't Serve Up Awesome Solutions I In Trust Pilot And I Say That Only Because They They Do Obviously You Pay Like For Us Right And Our Fees By The Way Are 3k A Year Or 5k

[00:18:44] A Month Or The Two Paid Tears For Free Anyone Can Come In Edit Their Profile Build Up Their Kudos So It Is I Would Argue The Most Meritocratic Form You Can Get But I Think G2 I Think Trust Pilot There's Another One That I In Clutch I Think They're They're Like The Second Best And I Say Second Only Because If Flexible Talent Will Be The Best But If Agency See And Talent So That's Pretty Good With That Said We Do Know That There's Lots Of

[00:19:13] Investment Put Towards Let's Do These G2 Campaigns And We See Because You Know We'll See That They'll Have These Marketing Teams That Are Out Getting So Is It Still Truly Merit I I Don't Know But It Still Seems Better Than Spending 100k To Have The Membership To Then Get In The Report Yeah I Love

[00:19:49] It By Identifying The Right Solution And The Paralysis Sets In Around What If I Fuck This Up And What If You Plug Something In That Feels So Core To Your Operations And It Turns Out Not To Be The Right Solution So It's A Really Necessary Product I Think For Organizations

[00:20:19] That Are Prepared Or Have The Appetite For This Type Of Blended Workforce Approach Yeah And It's Going To Be I Mean This Is Where I Emphasize To This Is Not The First Time Not Even Probably Like The Five To Fifteen Time That There's Been Some Sort Of Aggregator Model Tried To To This Space And And This Is Where As A Founder I'm Dumb To Say This Just Because I'm Making It Sound Like It's Not Going To Work But The First One Was Started In Around 2017

[00:20:49] And And It Ran Until 2017 To 2022 There's Been A Couple Since And So It's Been A Tried Model And You've Heard Things Like Hey Can We Create Yelp For The Flexible Workforce Hey Can We Create IAC Or Trip Advisor Or Priceline For The Flexible Warforce I Think Our Industry Is So Relational That It's Not It's Going To Require So Many Different Things And So Many Just As You Would Say Like Category

[00:21:18] Expertise To Get Right And I Also Think It's Going To Require The Industries To Succeed The Industry Right Now We Would Say It's Between A $444 Billion To Maybe A Trillion Dollar Industry The Numbers All To Me Are All Fake Anyways But Directionally We Know It's Going Like This The Question Is Going To Is Marketplace The Right Model What Does A Marketplace Actually Do That Makes Them Successful I Always Left Like One Of The Funniest Things For Me About This Whole Industry Is Person Is

[00:21:48] Doing Work Person Needs Work We Sit In The Middle Are We That You Know In 2016 I Think There Was

[00:22:17] Absolutely A Connection Problem It Was Really Difficult To Find The People And It Was There All Proving Great Connection Tools So The

[00:22:47] Commoditization Of That Connection Piece Is Going To A Road Like There Is No Way Of Getting Around That So You're Left With A Where Do You Produce Value Elsewhere From The People You're Providing Or Where Do You Provide Value Through Your Technology What Is Doing That Is An Interesting Moment Yeah And I Think And I Think And The RFP Process Kind Of Brings This Out There Is Also A Brief

[00:23:17] Process Which Is Basically Just Like The Abbreviated RFP So Rather Than 10 Questions I Actually Just Want Custom Quotes That

[00:24:13] hey, give me access or find me these people. We'll see. There's a ton of interesting models right now. Some are like buyer subscription led, so you don't pay per the actual hire. You pay just to have a subscription to the platform. Obviously, you and I are seeing EORs kind of, you know, not even say taking off because they've been taking off. Dominating. Dominating, yeah, it's the right word. But let me hand it over to you, Jack. So why, I'm going to ask two questions. Why this industry and why human cloud?

[00:24:42] And I have a feeling they're similar, but like, why not just say screw it and go to Google or go back in the ad world, right? So like, why keep bank? Why not Google? Because I've got a degree in art rather than mathematics. So that one's easy. That's a good answer. They wouldn't pick up the phone. I fell into this industry. I think most people fall into this industry. It was technology that drew me in.

[00:25:12] And then it was people that sort of got me to stay. I absolutely loved working in the types of stakeholders I was working with around talent acquisition and HR. I loved working with where people were the product. You know, that was the stock almost that you're moving around. I just found it incredibly engaging. And then I loved getting into the sort of mid and back office of organization to see how shit gets done on a day-to-day basis. I've always found that really fascinating.

[00:25:40] Seeing those patterns emerging between industries is always really funny to me. Like, advertising is such a great example of something that sounds super sexy, really cool and interesting. And you get into the weeds and it's another guy with a spreadsheet and a red pen, like crossing off costs and expenses. So it's like, there's a ubiquitous theme across most industries.

[00:26:05] And then, look, for you guys, when I left, you know, Juneau and I started my own business, I was looking around, trying to leverage partnerships as a really good way to get started. Starting a business is really hard and building momentum with customers right off the bat is really difficult. So it made sense to me to look at partners. And you guys just always had the voice, like you were at all the conferences, you were at the shows, you had the podcasts.

[00:26:32] You had amazing clients and solutions that you're always talking to. People that I knew, like, you know, gigged and green light and works and those types of organizations. I was like, yeah, well, those are the sort of top level of solutions. So it made sense in that way. And then just on a personal level, getting to know people and you think, yeah, I could get along with these guys. That makes it much easier. I think we've got a really similar outlook on this.

[00:27:00] Like there is a real genuine willingness to try and help grow this as a sort of workforce trend. Like we do actually believe in it. And we think we could do something to help solutions and to help customers, like by harnessing the human cloud tech and the services around it. So it was a bit of a no-brainer. And then your ambition, I think, at the moment was particularly exciting for me.

[00:27:28] I love the productization of the business going from like consultants and advisory and media and all of that stuff. And then to like, no, let's bundle this up and make something that people can actually use but be paid for. Yeah. And it was, I'm not going to lie, it's been a painful flip. Of course. Always. I'll give you, I'll give some context. I don't think I've ever really fully set on the show. But so, I think I told you, Jack.

[00:27:58] So, one of the toughest parts, I think, in going from, I'd say, freelancing or individual consulting into entrepreneurship. And we'll get a lot of, you know, I don't think they say it as much anymore, which is good. But a lot of people, especially we're saying like 2016 to 2022, they'd be like, hey, like freelancing, it's just entrepreneurship. And I'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's talk about this, right? Freelancing is you are the best in the world at your skill.

[00:28:27] And you are usually, you're so good that you don't need a perpetuity contract, right? You'll take that on. Entrepreneurship is usually there's this brand new problem that no one really understands, doesn't know about. And you have to somehow find a scalable standard product that you can then sell eventually, right? And so, those to me are two different worlds.

[00:28:49] But I'll give you the quick journey on Huma Cloud is me personally as a freelancer, I could go into any org from a product, tech, and then change management perspective and be like, hey, we're going to build product. We're going to build tech. We're going to do it in a way that's really, really quick. So, that was like my freelancer bonds, right? It would usually turn into some sort of workforce tech thing where they'd be like, hey, we need to be more flexible. And so, literally this. With that said, beating the bullet.

[00:29:17] So, in 2021, 20, whatever, when my ring was bought, it was like 30K a month plus to do the consulting. And it was good, man. It was like, okay, like this is good. Like, why was I doing it? This is great. And I had just sold, you know, my last venture bank company, best exits or whatever. It's still working. Not this. But so, 30K. And then with Huma Cloud, I mean, we were consistently making, right?

[00:29:44] Like 300 to 500 a year and it's a good lifestyle business and whatever. But it wasn't really moving the industry forward in the way that I believed, right? And it was mostly like doing it through conversation, not actual connection. And so, what was it? Last summer where I basically just told the team, hey, like we're not going to care about any revenue that's not platform-driven revenue. And it's going to be painful. And we're going to lose a lot of money because of it.

[00:30:12] But we're going to have to figure out things like automation, right? And so, even like this podcast, rather than making money off the podcast, we had to learn how to automate it entirely. Which is exactly what a lot of organizations have to go through right now. Which is where they have to figure out, hey, we've been spending X on talent for so long in this way. And that spend isn't going to have to get reduced and go to zero. But it's going to have to be reshifted.

[00:30:37] And so, you're going to have to now have 20% going to AI, 80% of it going to more flexible talent standards. Or else you're going to get disrupted. So, we definitely have had to do that ourselves over the past year. And it's been so painful. But I wonder, how do you see? Because it dovetails into what you're actually seeing across the market. So, you're leading EU and the UK. What are you seeing across the EU and the UK in terms of both adoption, but also challenges?

[00:31:07] And where do you see it going? I think there is an existential concern around the supply side of talent. I think direct sourcing and enhanced internal capabilities do seem to be a trend that organizations are super interested in. And I can't blame them. There's a very saturated market out there. There's lots of noise. There's lots of big claims. And it might feel safer to sort of wrap your arms around it yourself and try and gain some control.

[00:31:38] I've also always, like personally, advocated to businesses to sort of own and build a talent bank that you can manage and deploy as and when you need it. It's always made sense to me to have that type of bench of people that you can call on. They might not necessarily be like the innovators or the specialists that you bring in that really move the strategic needle. But they could certainly fill in the gaps as and when you need them.

[00:32:01] So, like more widely, I think the trends we're seeing are a very busy space, very, very saturated. And the difficulty, I think, for solutions is how do we penetrate and how do we position ourselves and actually penetrate the market where we want to. Lots of organizations, lots of solutions. It feels like this will build products, not in a vacuum, but maybe without doing like the sector specific work before they launch.

[00:32:30] And that can lead to you see a lot of hockey stick plateau in our space where there's like some real exponential growth, either in a specific sector or maybe across the horizontal where there's like some sort of systematic similarities across different businesses. But how do you get off that plateau? I think it's really, really challenging at the moment for lots of businesses. I spend a lot of time talking to people through Human Clan, through my other sort of life,

[00:32:59] about their positioning and their go-to-market strategy and how they win new business. And often it comes back to that piece around we haven't really explored who the buyer is. Yep. Yep. And the numbers literally are 500, 10 million, 50 million. Those are usually the plateaus. 500 is this is just a lifestyle.

[00:33:27] This is just usually the founder. 10 million is usually, all right, there's something here. There's pretty high retention, but they have not figured out the actual outbound strategy. It's all organic. You know, so that's usually there. And then 50 is usually, ooh, we can't penetrate. And I'm not going to say enterprise. I'm just going to say larger budgets.

[00:33:49] So it's usually we have two to three big clients that love us, but we have not gone from the Xbox team to the Azure team. We are simply still working in the same function, still making, you know, 10 to 20 million or 10 to 50 million at times with some clients, GMV. And so those are the three challenges we see. What do you see on the buyer side?

[00:34:15] And I do think there's this big, I think one of the biggest problems is compliance is like our candy in terms of it's sexy enough to get like quick hits and passive income. Meaning like, ah, you need to add that IC verification, right? Ah, you need to add that W2 layer. And it's passive income. It's two to 10%, but it's not really directly value adding, right? It's more so like a benefit of what you've already done.

[00:34:43] But that's the big strategic question for solutions in the market. It's to what extent do we ring fence that original idea? Like, do we want to be specialists or do we want to get pulled into the cupboard and be an upper classification and payments and data and reporting and all those other pieces? There's obvious growth there, but there's already lots of organizations that are doing that really, really well.

[00:35:09] So from a buyer's side, I think they're getting more aware of the regulatory shifts. Certainly in the UK, what we're seeing, the pattern is the government is updating lots of elements around employment law, also how taxes reported and paid. And that to me is evidence on the sort of direction of travel of we appreciate that the way work is being delivered has changed. And we are going to change the regulations to keep pace with that because we don't want a...

[00:35:40] What is the regulation? So we have something called the Employment Rights Bill, which is the biggest sort of shake up around the employment rights and how employment happens in the UK. And that's looking at things like statutory sick pay, day one employment rights and paternity leave, things like that.

[00:36:01] Then we have joint and several liability, which is much more sort of tax related, which is impacting how the supply chain is managed across the labor workforce. So if you're using umbrellas at any point in your supply chain, there's an opportunity for liability to swim upstream and bite the end client all of a sudden, which used to be quite neatly ring fenced. We've got something called the Fair Work Agency, which is a new body that's an amalgamation of a couple of old sort of institutes.

[00:36:28] But they're sort of policing things like minimum wage and are you recording and tracking holiday pay, that kind of stuff. And we've got our sort of Inland Revenue Services really digitalizing. So they're going to do a massive amount of effort and budget and to digitalize how tax is reported by sole traders, limited companies. And all of that, to me, points to we want A, to be better at understanding what's happening inside businesses.

[00:36:57] But B, we want organizations to be more accountable for what's happening across the whole ecosystem of work. So the days of just blaming suppliers sort of downstream and saying, oh, we didn't know are coming to an end. I think in the UK particularly, we're looking at a new horizon for accountability and compliance. And that will push people into more rigorous programs and governance and technology. But all of those things need to go hand in hand.

[00:37:25] In the Netherlands, there's something very similar called the V-bar, which is sort of another classification piece. You're seeing it across Germany, Poland in particular. Spain is also sort of looking at its regulations. So across the continent, the pattern is better regulation and tighter control. Interesting. Okay.

[00:37:51] And my answer to all this usually is just pay the 2% to 5%, meaning like expect that every dollar you're just paying the insurance policy. What? So good. You can indemnify tax liability. You can't indemnify against operational disruption. And that's what we talk to customers about all the time. It would be great to wave a magic wand, no matter how big that financial magic wand is.

[00:38:17] If something in your supply chain breaks and you lose 400 members of staff overnight because they're not being paid, that will have an operational impact to your organization. Then the other big piece is reputational damage. We see people lose customers over this stuff. And if you have a very high profile customer and then you're named and shamed by the revenue service for not reporting tax properly, you could probably wave bye-bye to that customer. So there's risk all over it.

[00:38:47] So I do agree. Get the suppliers in that matter. But the phrase I always use is you can't outsource accountability. And that does mean that you're going to have to understand the governance of your workforce in a bit more detail. Go back to that earlier point of like, well, that's procurement's problem. That's why it really doesn't make sense anymore. I was just going to bring that up. So this is where, so I always mess with Tony because I'm just like, I don't understand the HR. I've never understood it. Why does it exist?

[00:39:14] I just always assumed HR existed to walk people out of the building, to send that 6 a.m. email about the layoff. But then when you meet with like real HR experts, you do kind of realize like, damn, they have this real like organizational psychology lens. They have this real kind of like no frills legal understanding. And so this is where like Tony and actually one of the biggest things we're seeing with him especially is like hyper, hyper growth and, you know, company.

[00:39:43] And they're just like, we don't know how to keep this growth going without it sinking us, which is where something like him comes in. So, okay, so you have that, but that's coming out of him with an HR background. You then have the procurement people. And when you talk with them, it's usually nothing related to like organizational psychology or anything. It's mostly just like how to get the price down, right? And like the technology to bring everyone under one.

[00:40:08] And so I think part of it, and let me know if I'm totally wrong on this, but, you know, one of the things that I've always heard is like, it's much easier to not get sued than to deal with the lawsuit. And so if you treat your people right, they usually don't sue you. And so in a flexible workforce, right? Like so long as you have the right talent strategy that is treating external workers, just like internal workers. That's like nine tenths of the battle.

[00:40:38] You'll have lawyers screaming at the screen if anyone's watching this. I don't care, lawyers. Because you guys also have to be great. I was actually yelling at one yesterday about this. Literally, Jack, this lawyer yesterday, I was yelling at him because he was giving all this info. And I told him, I was like, listen, man, if everyone listened to you, our industry wouldn't exist. Because in a perfect world, they would just have one classification of talent.

[00:41:02] In a perfect world, they would just, so the lawyers, if you're listening, sorry, but I'm not going to listen to you like nine tenths of the time. In the UK, when the classification rules changed in the private sector called I-35, payroll worker regs came in. We had lots of very large enterprise organizations make this decision that we just weren't going to use freelancers anymore because the liability was too big. And that was a great example of a lawyer making a decision in a vacuum.

[00:41:31] And they didn't understand the operational, the skills, the talent, the reputational damage that it caused downstream. Nobody wanted to work for them because if you're a high-skilled freelancer or a consultant professional that's used to managing your income and your money as a business, you're not going to take a sort of PAYE gig with a company and become a pseudo-employee. And what they found, most of these organizations, was that they got absolutely gutted for skills and talent.

[00:42:00] And they went to the organizations that could be bothered to engage in the regulation. So there is something in that. Lawyers do tend to say things like, you shouldn't treat them like staff. You shouldn't treat them like everyone else. They shouldn't even be in the building, that kind of stuff. I don't mind where a client draws its compliance threshold line. I still think you can afford to treat them like human beings.

[00:42:31] Listen, in 2015 was when I started my first marketplace while in grad school. And I remember a lawyer comes to give us a class, go meet with the lawyer. And he's like, yeah, this isn't going to work. And I'm like, and mind you, I went to Babson, which is like number one for entrepreneurship. So this is a school that's just pumping out entrepreneurs. And I'm talking with the lawyer and the lawyer is like, yeah, this industry doesn't exist. And I'm like, what do you mean, man?

[00:42:59] There's just this merger with Elance and Odesk. And I'm like, look at the growth trajectory and look at the obvious business brand. He's just like, it doesn't exist. It's all illegal. I'm like, oh my God. And that's maybe to the letter of the law, like, yeah, you could look at legislation that was built in the 70s and go, well, this doesn't fit that, does it? So that's what we're seeing at the moment across Europe is regulatory updates because the reality has shifted.

[00:43:28] And it's funny, like I say this to businesses and I say this to, I say the same thing to like a governing body. You don't have a choice how work is delivered. All you can do is move with it. Like this isn't a strategic decision you get to make. The final decision on how work is delivered is the worker. And if they want to work with freedom, flexibility on sort of gig economy, jobs, all full time, it's completely up to them. Thanks. They will. So, okay, last question.

[00:43:57] We got 12 months, right? What is going to happen from now to 12 months? You, Human Cloud, what can our listeners be excited for? Hey, look, we've got this podcast still rolling, right? And we've got the community calls. I'm going to come on the community calls and do a regular compliance update for everyone. I'll keep them coming, right? But really, I think it's how close can we get to the solutions and the marketplaces

[00:44:23] and just provide as much value as possible to them by bringing those buyers into them. When I talk to Human Cloud members at the moment, the way I describe it is there's a shop window, right? I describe Human Cloud as a shop window. And there's two sides of the glass. One is the buyer and one is you. You're the solution. Like if you want to be in the conversation, this is where the conversation is happening. So, yeah, I think how do we grow that as much as possible is going to be the most exciting thing.

[00:44:51] Starting any marketplace is difficult, but we're getting so much traction now with the buyers and the solutions. It feels like it will really grow quickly. What about you? What do you think in 12 months? Yeah, it's funny. I think 12 months and still a startup founder. I'm thinking 12 days. But I think I've never been more excited about the community calls, actually. And so we start every single one. And it sounds so simple, but we start every one.

[00:45:21] And you got 30 plus of the best talent marketplace executives. And next month will probably be 50 in the month after 70. But so you got them all there. And they're all there in a spirit of collaboration, not competition. And we're very, very intentional about, you know, parts that are recorded and not recorded. And so very intentional. We know some is closed door, some is not. They also all have been heavily vetted. And so we don't just let anyone in. You actually can't pay your way to the community.

[00:45:49] You still have to be at the top of the platform, but also in this collaboration, not competition spirit. And if you do act competitive, so if we find out that you are taking notes and then using them, I'll just go yourself, right? In terms of like you're going to get kicked out of the community and whatever, lambasted. But so the community calls are awesome. And we start every single one of them by saying literally, how are you feeling? Thumbs up, thumbs sideways, thumbs down.

[00:46:15] And just the ability to every month, just get a pulse check on like, how are your peers doing? And not have to worry about like sending the calendar invite, keeping up to date with my founder friends. Like that in itself is a massive, massive value. And I feel mixed into, you know, we've always undervalued that in terms of how powerful that is. So I would add, so the community calls, hell yeah.

[00:46:41] The second thing is leveraging our agentic growth tools because what we have is we have the power of mass, right? And so for every solution, their direct campaigns will be best for their specific ICP. But our campaigns will always be best for flexible talent. So there's this beautiful intersection, which is you're sitting here and this is your industry. You're the best at this. We're sitting here and this is flexible talent.

[00:47:08] And it's trend that we believe will be 10 trillion by 2030. Now they need to come together so that there's a one plus one equals 10 scenario. And I think that's what we're all trying to create. And I think what I love is like, we're all in this journey together. So like when I meet with solutions, it's not me being like, hey, we're a marketing agency and I'm trying to sell you to wear a marketing. Like, no, no, no. Like if you guys don't succeed, we're not going to succeed. So like we're in the same boat, right? We're in the same boat. We need to get to here. And if you don't, we're not.

[00:47:38] And if we don't, you're not going to succeed as much as you can. Oh, that's what I kind of love. But yeah, man. But I'll give it to you, Jack. What is the final sendoff as a, and we're about to go ahead and do a buyer on RFP discussion. But what is the final sendoff from all our listeners? I would just echo that point. I think you sort of win and fail together. And I both spend a lot of time talking to organizations and we don't mind people leveraging our expertise.

[00:48:07] We've spent a lot of time in this space now. And we're fairly uniquely positioned of having spoken to thousands of these types of organizations, probably. And I would just say like the patterns we see and the trends we see tend to be fairly similar. If you're worried or like being kept up at night by something, just let us know because we've probably seen it and helped. I think that's a special source of human cloud.

[00:48:35] It's that massive amount of qualitative and quantitative data, but a real personal intent to succeed. And I will say one funny thing. We have like one of the patterns. If y'all are running into this, just know that you're not alone. So one funny one, Jack. So if your CEO went to one conference and now believes all conferences are bad, we've heard that. If your CEO, if your original founder took on venture in a way that they didn't understand that you don't get all the money at once,

[00:49:05] we understand that. If you are getting, you know, you're headstrong because investors just don't get what you're doing. We've heard, right? So it is funny. Like most times founders can be being like, you're not going to believe what happened. And I'm like, nah, I believe it. My favorite was always the CEO coming in and he'd listen to Diary of the CEO podcast. He's like, I want to do a podcast. And we're all like, mate, you don't have the charisma.

[00:49:35] It's another thing. What strikes do you got? You know, so. All right. Well, let's go get a buyer for those listening, by the way. There's going to be at least 10 to 30 solutions that a buyer is going to directly reach out to you. So, Jack, thank you for hopping on. First of many listeners, look out for Jack listening to Tony as well. And then we'll all hop on and then everyone go reach out to Jack individually. Yeah. Jack, thanks for hopping on, man. Pleasure. We're going to be doing the Righteousgiving of the CEO. Why? So, Jack, thank you. Yeah. If you are coming to me, you're going to be feeling the right.