Totally Rewarding Chats | Ep. 48: Wisdom from a leadership and performance coach

[00:00:00] Right, another Totally Rewarding Chats Podcast. And as always, I am with Sean. And I know, you know, I'm going to keep calling you Sean. You are the dad of the household, so you are Sean. That's true. I do qualify as a Mr. Ryman. I identify that way. That's fair. And this would be an interesting one. I'm glad we're going to have this out public, although I'm glad we can edit. I'm stoked we have Holly Benner here today.

[00:00:27] Holly co-hosts and coaches with me at Meta Performance Coaching. So I don't cross over the LinkedIn to IG world a ton, but I do have a, you know, side hobby, I'll call it, coaching with Meta Performance. And Holly is part of that. And so both of you are co-hosts with me on podcasts. So there's probably some type of support group that could be started soon as well. Our algorithms are going to get so messed up.

[00:00:57] Oh, that's true. Look at you. So we were just chatting before that we might call Paul a nerd, but that is a nerd comment right out of the gate, Holly, talking about the algorithms. It's true. And so Holly is with us today in her day job, and I actually coach with Holly a fair bit, but I really want Holly to talk about her past and give her own intro because I will totally screw up what she's doing now.

[00:01:21] So I wear a few hats, but primarily the two big ones are one as a center of excellence lead at Merck Pharmaceuticals in leadership development and global talent management, where I specifically focus on coaching and teaming effectiveness for our enterprise around 70,000 employees across the world.

[00:01:41] My other hat is, as Sean mentioned, as co-owner and founder of Meta Performance, where we coach high performers that are looking to get after in all aspects of work, sport, and life. And that is for athletes and executives, professionals. I'll add to the meta. The reason I joined is it's a little bit of the hippie side of it is being that type of performer, high performer, but being happy. And, you know, making sure, and hence the meta piece.

[00:02:08] So the other co-founder, Michael, is all about that as well as Holly. So that's a piece of it. And that was kind of the allure to me is you can try to be successful in many places and be happy. And enjoy it. Yes. Meta is a Polly word for loving kindness. I used to, former professional triathlete, and I saw that there was a choice. I used to be a peak performance geek. Like, what can it, what does it take to get the very best out of yourself?

[00:02:37] And I, over time, became less attracted to that because it comes at an extreme cost. And by design, it is a moment in time. So we revised to be focused on sustainable performance, which we believe at Meta is focused on loving kindness instead of, you know, demons in the closet, go hard, go home, no pain, no gain. That is good for some people, but just not how we, what we focus on. That will totally help my hippie vibe with Paul.

[00:03:05] I won't get any jokes over the rest of that. So you know, Holly, because you've co-hosted, I love to do the speed round of questions. I want to know if I can answer them before you even ask the question. Three of them you might. Three of them you probably can. Go, let's see how you do. Coffee? Coffee? Pizza? Crunchy is wrong, but that's okay. Okay.

[00:03:32] So to your coffee, you are coffee, but we usually do a follow-up here. Are you a coffee snob? Oh, yes. Yes. Capital S snob. Yes. We roast her in coffee. Like you own. Oh, that's a different level of like, I am a picky coffee snob. You are a created coffee snob. Yes. Like I like it. We source green beans from sustainable farms, usually in South America. Favorite is Colombian coffee. Puerto Rico is also excellent.

[00:03:59] And yeah, we roast about eight to ten ounces at a time, a couple times a week. Wow. So you're similar to me. And then you roast it. Do you roast it in just the small? Well, I just roast it in the small oven and then you put it in the colander and shuck it off and then grind them. We have a small at-home coffee roaster. So it's basically like a small convection oven and it has a cylinder that rotates and then you can get the chafe off. And yeah, give it a couple days so that it's good. And then we go from there. Rinse, wash, repeat. I just do it in the small oven, Paul.

[00:04:29] I do it in the small toaster oven. Yeah. But I have to go to the point. I have to keep turning it. People are like, oh, you just go and leave it in there and come back. No, you have to like, it's a process. We should show you what we use. Be more. Yeah. I had a, I actually did roast my own. This is in 2002 for about six months until my roommate told me it smelled horrible and I couldn't do it anymore. So I had to give it up. I'm sure the technology's improved because it was basically like burning popcorn back in 2022. And he just couldn't live with it anymore.

[00:04:58] It is a scent. Specific. So I know you got the crunchy one. Yeah. So you got that. So that's fine. So your favorite wine, because I think I learned going through your profile something new about you, which is kind of crazy. So your favorite wine? Champagne. Is that a wine? Of course. Would you say of course? Paul and I are like, I'm sorry.

[00:05:24] I thought you'd order wine or champagne at the place, but champagne is in the Venn diagram of wine? 100%. It is wine. It's just fermented, carbonated. Yes. Now, if you're looking for maybe what you're thinking of outside of champagne, France, because it's made from the champagne grape and it is my preferred wine, if I had to pick, is all Spanish wines, particularly northern Spain. Very into northern Spanish whites. Okay.

[00:05:54] Learn something new. And you have only one thing you can do today. Are you going to swim, bike, or run? Run. I just did. Okay. Yeah. We're slightly different. I'm going to ride. Paul, look at Paul's face. Paul would be like, I'll take D, none of the above. I will walk briskly. I will walk briskly. Or I will ride bikes with my kids. There's no performance cycling out of this set of legs, but I can keep up with my 7 and 11-year-olds.

[00:06:24] Both Holly and I have done a fair amount of ultra running, which the walking briskly is actually a thing you need to do because you will walk some. Absolutely. And then the most important question, Holly, you have a weekend away yourself, so you get to choose. No others involved in your decision. Are you going to a posh resort or are you camping and roughing it in the woods? Camping. That is 100% the right answer. Camping.

[00:06:54] Perfect. I did not know, Paul. I actually thought it might have been that, and then I saw the wine thing, and I thought this was not going to go well. So when she went champagne, I was like, oh, I am good on the not wanting to rough it in the woods. But yeah, that's it. But I guess that sort of fits the more modern combination of I still like my creature comforts, but I'm willing to get dirty and get out there in nature. Oh, yeah. I mean, you're in that segment of the Venn diagram. I can bring the cooler. That's a question.

[00:07:23] That's actually, I prefer camping, but I can bring the cooler. That's that. I like that. Yeah. It's not like naked and afraid, right? I'm not like foraging for my own food. I mean. Grapes. You have to forage for grapes. Make your own wine. So I had never heard the term as we jump in. So start with defining an A-plus person, because we've had A, and then I had never heard that term until I met you about A-plus personalities.

[00:07:51] Define that, and then we can kind of bounce into how people can be successful in today's environment, which is a huge can of worms. But start with A-plus, because I had never heard that. Sure. Yeah. And I say I haven't heard anybody else say it, so I use it repeatedly, but usually because I get a little smile out of people that are type A, type A-plus. So applied psychologists by education and type A-B personality is something that most people are familiar with.

[00:08:19] Type A is more of that perfectionist route. Type B is more laissez-faire, go with the flow. I like to say my clientele and the people I work best with are type A-plus. They want to run a marathon and run a business and have a great relationship and have a dynamic family life, and they don't want to be told no, they want to be shown how. That's type A-plus. And I do say it repeatedly because I get smiles and chuckles out of people, and it's great because they self-identify.

[00:08:48] Because of type A-plus, people are like, oh my gosh, that's me. So I say type A-plus because why not A-plus, right? But, you know, I will say some people bristle at this description because we need both people, right, in work, at a team, in a household, in society. Not everybody needs to be A-plus. So I'm not saying, you know, that they're better. I'm saying this is a personality trait and characteristic of individuals that I tend to

[00:09:17] prefer to work with because they want to do all the things at 100% at the same time. And sometimes you can't or shouldn't, or that will impact your performance or your happiness or your satisfaction, right? So it's how can you take your personality tendency and learn how to work with it instead of against it? So we work in comp. Comp people have, I have learned over time, I have never been a practitioner, but they are

[00:09:46] always after an answer. And sometimes like talking them off the 15 significant digits of being correct is a personality trait. For a lot of them, how do you start to coach people to pick and choose where to be A-plus and where to maybe be A and how to make the trade-offs with people? So where to be A-plus and where maybe to reprioritize that personality tendency.

[00:10:12] So, I mean, I think it matters on goals and timing, you know, what is going on in that individual's life, big picture. But, you know, personality traits tend to show up in every aspect of life typically. So it's about, you know, what's realistic, what we have control over, what you don't have control over. Going as far as to say, you know, even feelings. Feelings are a choice. We can acknowledge that feeling and not react to that feeling.

[00:10:38] We can cultivate a mindset where we can understand what we do have control over, what we don't have control over. It's not about being less of who you are. It's about understanding what drives you so that you can not only show up and perform, but be happy, be fulfilled, right? And knowing that there's other people and nine times out of ten, ten times out of ten, you're not controlling other people. And a lot of source of suffering or dissatisfaction comes from our relationship or expectations to others.

[00:11:09] So being able to shift that narrative and focus on how we show up, how we respond is paramount. It's not taught in grade school. It's not even a college course, right? Maybe it is now some places. But I mean, it is really kind of an experience that you have to be willing to go through and learn from in order to have a more fulfilling life, more peace and ease, more flow and joy and less challenge.

[00:11:38] And that doesn't necessarily look like a new role or a new job. It's just changing your relationship with how you react to what's in your world. So let's assume we have people in the comp profession, right? Well, I mean, where do you start? Like, it's kind of the cheat code since they're not at Merck with you or, you know, going through. I mean, it's a hard thing, right? Because I think most people want to be good at everything and excel at everything. There's very few people, I think, that are like, I have these things in my life and here's

[00:12:06] some things I'd like to suck at and here's some I want to be good at. Like, they generally want to be good. So where do you start when you're having that discussion with people around setting goals and figuring out how to, you know, be happy in all things? Because sometimes, I mean, to be fair, like you can't win at everything. So how do you start that discussion with people or have them have that hard discussion with themselves? Yeah, great question.

[00:12:32] And just to kind of draw a comparison, I mean, at Merck, we have a lot of scientists, right? Data-driven, right? Numbers and qualifiers are paramount are very important, especially in certain industries and roles. But where I like to start with an individual is an inside-out approach. So asking something like their values or really spending time on values identification, and I call them a compass, right? You can start to navigate and make value-based decisions once you're very clear and aligned on what

[00:13:02] values matter most to you. And I always like to say simple but not easy. I'm sure lots of things come to your mind when I say values. We kind of inherently know what this word is. But do you know what values matter most to you? And when you start to make value-based decisions, making the decision doesn't become easier. But the decision that you do make, you can live with. And it's the right one. And that's a game changer. But Sean, I mean, it's nuanced.

[00:13:30] And some people, you know, want to play small and they want to stay in a lane. We're talking about my work. Some people want to play big. And we encourage that at Meta. Talk about work. Talk about life. Talk about hobbies. Bring all of it, right? Then we can really start to make change. But make no mistake, the hardest question I can ask anyone, irrespective of age, experience, role is what is it that you want? What do you want? That is such a hard question.

[00:13:58] It shuts people down because I've never given time or energy to think about if anything was possible, what would they say yes to? Yeah. I'm curious. And this might be a different thread than you were going to take, Sean. So just you don't know this about me, Holly, but about four years ago, I went through sort of a self-evaluation moment on this exact same topic, right? Where I realized I'm an ADHD, want to be really good family father, and I'm a VP at a big company. And I didn't feel like I could do all three well, right?

[00:14:28] So I had to have that moment of what matters to me. And I ended up prioritizing them in that order. I can't change who I am. I'm stuck with me. So I got to deal with that. I'm prioritizing family over work. And I made a choice to sort of pivot away, right? And change that environment to feel successful at all. At the time, I got a ton of feedback that it was rare for a male to do that, right? To sort of prioritize family over work. I didn't see it that way, but that's how it was described. Do you see that?

[00:14:55] Is there a gender bias to the way people show up to this conversation? Is that changing? I hope it is if there is one. But like, what's your... Like, I got that feedback and I didn't see it at the time. I didn't feel like it was unusual. But the fact that others said it, maybe it is. Interesting. And I love that experience for you. And like, I applaud you for asking the hard questions of yourself, right? And you probably had a sense of like, this is not sustainable. I can't do this long term. So then what?

[00:15:26] But regarding gender, I mean, I work, I would say pretty split 50-50 men and women. I think the key differentiator is the people that are actually interested in coaching. Those are people that are interested in saying, hey, I might not have all the answers and I'm willing to acknowledge that I don't. I'm willing to bring someone else in, not because I have a deficit, but because I want to get better. And that's a different kind of person. That's fair. Yeah, that makes sense.

[00:15:54] I mean, it's interesting when you say that people will stop and say, well, I just want to talk about work or I just want to talk about being successful somewhere. Because in general, there's a time commitment and energy space commitment, you know? So if you're trying to do, for us, Paul, it's a sport thing, right? And, you know, the amount of time that goes into that and effort plus family plus work. I mean, I can't fathom doing that in a vacuum and not weighing the goals.

[00:16:22] And so how do you have people tackle that and kind of in a nice way say, I understand you want to talk about just work and moving ahead or doing better, whatever you want to do. But unless that's your only thing and that's your choice, like you have to weigh these other things. Like, how do you get people to weight and rank, I guess, their stuff? Kind of like Paul did on his own, you know, kind of decide this is what, this is how it's going to go. So I kind of hear that as two different questions.

[00:16:50] One is like, what is the experience of working with somebody that wants to play small and like wants to be linear? And maybe how do you or how do you encourage someone to bring more layers? Is that what you're? Yeah, I mean, how do you? Yeah, because I think there for most people, there are more layers, right? They have a workout set. And I do think I'll put myself as the oldest person on here. Like, I'm still guilty of that. I mean, I don't know how long, Paul, it was that we knew that between you, either I did

[00:17:18] sport or I coached or I keep the two very separate. Family, very separate from work. I've always kept them. In my head, I'm weighing them and making trade-offs. But I don't know that I would have shared that with anybody at any point in time. And so, you know, one, not as a gender, I was going to ask Paul, was it generational? Not gender specific. But how do you get people to say, well, you can't look at it in that vacuum and you have to wait these other things because you can't be, you know, giving 100 hours at work and,

[00:17:47] you know, 69 hours in the rest of your life because there aren't that many hours. Right, right. I think, you know, sometimes we, you always accept the client with where they are. You know, you meet your client where they are. And if they say, hey, I'm going to work with you just like this, it's like, okay. And let the conversation evolve, right? They're always in the driver's seat because it's in service of the client, how we show up as a coach. But, you know, I think sometimes that compartmentalization works for people.

[00:18:17] So they see it as a asset. It's never viscerally or substantially held them back. They've never had consequences from it, even though it's maybe been challenging. So they just keep doing it. Compartmentalization, segmentation, right? But when it comes to whole person change, when somebody is typically stuck and they know that they don't want to keep doing what they're doing, but they don't know what else or what next, then by nature of the conversations, it kind of trickles in.

[00:18:47] So most often than not, it starts kind of very focused and narrow and just due to the nature of the work and the insights and the change and also the trust that you build with the client naturally over time, it does tend to expand. And that's always exciting because that's when you can take traction, right? And really start to see that it's who you are isn't what you do. It's not your role in your title. It's your whole self.

[00:19:13] And sometimes people are just hesitant, scared, need more time. But regardless, it's always serving the client's needs. Yeah, to me, that's super interesting because I've only come at it from the someone is a professional, but they come for triathlon coaching, right? Or, you know, endurance coaching. And I think it's much easier to say, well, what do you got shaken with work? Because it's such a large chunk of their life. Like you're literally having to work around it.

[00:19:42] But it's interesting hearing you talk about, you know, if they're talking about professional, like the other stuff is kind of like, I can see it being a simpler, none of your business. I'll take care of it. Absolutely. Mode as you go. Yeah. And I experienced that a lot as a leader where it's like, when you're trying to coach your team to some extent, there are absolutely people who are like, I don't want to talk about home here. Right. Right. And I understand you have to value that. I'm not going to pry out. Like, I know something's going on at home. And you can kind of tell, but that's not my job. Right. It's not my place. I shouldn't say not my job.

[00:20:12] It's not my place. It's sort of pry into their lives. But I always did feel like those who took a more integrated approach to our relationship where they understood I was a dad. I understood whatever it was in their life that they needed to prioritize. We were actually more productive workers because we understood, yeah, this is a bad week for this pressure. Yeah. Something else is happening. Or I've got this going on this week. Can you take it now? Right. Like, we were able to play off each other as humans better. Yes.

[00:20:41] Than compartmentalized thinking, which it took me a while to realize that. Same, to be honest. I was very compartmentalized for the majority of my life and my career. I was worried that if my employer knew how much I cared about triathlon, that they would automatically assume that I wasn't dedicated. And I was worried that, you know, results, raises to talk about it until I had enough encouragement, I think, from people I respected.

[00:21:11] And they were like, that's amazing. Like, you should share that. And when I did, reluctantly, I got such a great reaction. People leaned forward. And it was like, wait a second. I've been telling myself a lie. I've been saying that this is what's going to hold me back when, in fact, holding it back was what was holding me back. Being more mean.

[00:21:32] I will say, though, there are, I mean, that reaction I've had the other way, though, where I think, you know, and it only takes the few bad apples, you know, for someone to say, I heard, I heard, I heard, I heard. Right. Right. Where, you know, you tell someone you're doing something and they're like, well, how much time does that take? And you know where it's going, right, from the tone of the first call, right? You know, the first time there's a discussion. And so it is, you know, how do you get that out there and how do you read the room to figure out if it's the right time and place?

[00:22:00] And then, you know, there's always the I want to be known as a for whatever I do professionally being good. I don't want to be on this other talk track all the other time. So it is, I think, a slippery slope, you know, and just understanding the landscape that you're in in the time and the place. For sure. Of course, context matters. I mean, we're kind of speaking generally. But at the end of the day, speaking 100% personally, I would rather be critiqued and judged for everything that I am instead of an idea of what I'm not.

[00:22:31] Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's becoming more common. Like you are seeing, you know, this blend, the Instagram, LinkedIn, you know, in fact, if there's been any complaints on LinkedIn, it's there's so much personal stuff on there now, you know, which is kind of cool, right? Because now we're, it's a community of humans as opposed to a community of workbots that are there.

[00:22:51] So if you spin some of that and you've talked to somebody, when you talk to people about moving their career forward, what are some either tracks or, you know, skills or items that people should think about? If they're thinking about what do I need to be successful or to be myself? Like, how do you coach people through evaluating where you are now as a, you know, corporate coach and development to where they want to be?

[00:23:17] The conversation can be really dynamic and can take a lot of different avenues based on the client's interests. But, you know. I just got to say that's the consultant's version too. Yes. Paul's going to be it. I always pick up. It depends. That's what you always hear. It depends. It depends. That was the longest IO psychological explanation of it depends though. Yes. Sorry to interrupt, but it was, it depends. Yes. You're like my translator. Yeah. Yes. No, by and large, it depends.

[00:23:44] But, you know, knowing, knowing what the individual wants, right? Helping, coaching them, asking the right questions so that they have clarity. Also, what is success? What is happiness? How do you know when you're successful? How do you know when you're happy? What does it feel like? When's the last time it happened? What are you missing in your life? You know, if anything could be possible, what would you want? Is it finances? Is it time? Is it freedom? Is it recognition? And then it's being really clear on these facets.

[00:24:14] And then, you know, seeing then what? Is there an action plan? Can that action plan be realized where you are? Or does it require a change of environment? A change of scope? A change of responsibilities? Who else needs to know? Right? A lot of times, individuals and employees, especially, again, regardless of level, they can have these great ideas. But if they don't communicate clearly to the people that need to hear them, it doesn't matter.

[00:24:44] We can have the loudest voice in our head. But if no one else knows, no one else knows. So sometimes it's being really crystal clear on helping them architect, you know, a communication plan, so to speak. What is the message? Who needs to know? What is the ask? Is it time-bound? And helping them feel confident in delivering that message. And sometimes that's a game changer, right? Just like, oh, you know, I never knew this, what you were interested in, career development in this way. Let's make a plan to put it in action.

[00:25:14] Sometimes individuals feel like they've been having the conversation, but it's really been not direct and not clear. So helping individuals really identify their behaviors so that they can align their goals with their behaviors. That's what matters most. And it doesn't take much time. Truly, six months, you can have a radical change. And, Paul, I'm curious, like, what was your experience there, like that trajectory? I feel like everything takes me longer than it should take, right?

[00:25:43] Like the six-month part. But, I mean, I think, you know, and maybe it's just me as a human, but what I learned is that answering my own question. I mean, this is not answering your question, but, like, coming to peace with my own answers was the hard part. Like, putting things into change and into effect and sort of seeing results of clarity were fast.

[00:26:04] It's the self-realization of this isn't going to work was, like, three years of me trying to figure out, well, why is it I don't feel like I'm the father I want to be? Why do I don't feel like the husband I want to be? But I also don't feel like I'm the leader at work I want to be, right? What's causing that? It took me a long time to figure out. It wasn't the employer. I don't need to switch jobs anymore to chase it. It's not me that I'm broken because I'm a person and I'm going to be me, right? So I can't, like, fix it.

[00:26:32] I'm not going to become this tomorrow, right? But it was a – I kept treating it as a, like, I can outthink it, not a I need to rationalize what's more important to me. So that took years. Yeah. Then when you commit to action, it's just about a plan and do it. Right. And, you know, and there's consequences and getting comfortable with the consequences of nice, stable income not being stable anymore. Because my answer was to start a business, which is insane when I look at it in hindsight.

[00:26:57] But it did allow me to sort of balance the things that I wanted to balance in a way that could let me run in that priority order, right? But with the risk, things change fast. And you start to – I started to feel better fast around, all right, like, I can do all the things. You know, some weeks are hard. Some months are hard still. That's always going to be the case. But I never – I don't have the moments now where I'm like, oh, what am I doing? Right?

[00:27:22] Because I'm clearer on the sequencing and the operational mechanism to get there. That's – I guess that's sort of the outcome. Yeah. Beautiful. And, I mean, an option was also to keep doing what you were doing, which is to critique and analyze and kind of, you know, be on the spin cycle of self-doubt, deprecation, and, like, critique, right? But I'm so glad that you were able to put action and get traction and make change.

[00:27:49] And to kind of bring this into a compensation term, there is a difference, and I work with individuals on this theme of having a wealthy life or a rich life. You can be wealthy or you can be rich, and you get to define what rich means. Yeah. And when you can start to conceptualize meaning, mindset, to create a rich life, that's very empowering.

[00:28:19] It's what matters most. Yeah. The other thing that I do think for people in our profession, too, right, because comp and rewards is a very grinding, cyclical job. At least it has been historically, right? Like, it doesn't come in a year where you don't have that, like, 70-hour week or two. Like, that's just how it works. It's always worked that way. Maybe technology improves that, you know, but it's a hard job, right?

[00:28:48] It is a difficult life as a reward practitioner. If I were to start my career over, I don't think I would have found myself in the same spot I was if I were sort of clear about priorities from the get-go, right? So I wouldn't, and not that I think you're saying this because you're not, but escape is not the answer for most people, right? I had to sort of change lanes in my career. I don't think that's true for everybody. I think it's more if you start with the clarity of this is how it's going to work for me.

[00:29:17] This is what's important. I actually think my brand would have built differently. My norms would have built differently. My relationships would have built differently. And it probably would have been a different answer 25 years in than it was. But life changes, too. And I think that's the piece is your definition of rich, which I like the rich versus wealthy. I think, you know, as I tell my kids, they don't make hearses with luggage racks. They don't what? They don't make hearses with luggage racks.

[00:29:48] And so, you know, you can, but you'd be happy and rich in life as you go. But that changes all the time, right? So what's important to you at the time might be the job or it might be some, you know, thing you're targeting. And then, you know, depending if you have family or not or trips or you want to travel or, you know, life just changes. You need to be flexible to define what that rich is because I do think people start.

[00:30:17] And one, I think some things are thrust on them. You know, things like the nine, you know, one of my least favorite things in corporate is the nine box. Because the premise is always the top right is where everyone should be and should want to be. And you're like, bro, I don't want to get promoted. Like, I don't want that. And so, to your point, Holly, I think that was a great example of, you know, are you communicating that actually I don't want to go in? Like, I'm totally happy here because outside of life is the rich part of life.

[00:30:47] But the corporate norm is, right? And it's kind of drilled into you. You want to be next to be promoted. You want to get promoted. You want to be the best. You want to do whatever. But is that really what you want? And how does that align with, you know, the company? And, you know, each company's got their own type of, you know, each own type of mode as well. Yes, 100%.

[00:31:08] And I mean, Paul, to your point and Sean, what you're mentioning is, you know, this values, the significance of values and values identification, which, yes, will change over time, isn't taught. It's simple, not easy, but it is, you know, I could describe how I work with people and values, and your listeners can take this away if they so choose. So, if somebody's really confused and lost and values is the right place to start, the homework is simple.

[00:31:36] I give them two weeks, and the assignment is to think about their top three to five values. Take some time. Just write down values. Write down the word. Adventure. Family. Finances. Freedom. Joy. Community service. All the things, right? Just write down the words somewhere you can see. Come back to it. Think about it organically. This is going to be a shower thought when you're running, when you're cycling, when you're having coffee. Write it down.

[00:32:03] After about a week, identify the top, the top three to five, and then you define them in your own words. This is key. You can Google values exercising and your exercises, and you're going to get someone else's definition. This is what makes it inorganic. So, Sean, your definition of health and fitness might be different than mine. Perhaps, right? It likely is because it's your life. It's your value. So, you need to define it. So, three to five values, sit with it, and then you define them. Simple.

[00:32:33] And then you can start to have a conversation that's usually what they come back with. And we say, you know, health and wellness. How high is this showing up in your life right now? Out of ten, it's a five. Okay, how can we get it to a six, to a seven? Right? The highest values. Of course, you're going to have a lot more than three or five. We're not saying only have three or five. We're saying identify the top. How strongly are they showing up? And then you can start to, again, build your compass and you can say yes or no to opportunities. Do you want this promotion?

[00:33:03] Sean, do you want to stay here? Do you want to do X or Y? You can refer to your values and make a value-based decision. And then things, again, not easier to make the decision, but they're the right decision for the right reasons. How do you get people? You mentioned going from five to six. So let's assume, you know, they go do their homework and turn it in on time, I guess. Yes. Then how do you get people to start change?

[00:33:29] Because, you know, I think with a lot of change, it's hard to just, you know, go from, you know, we are five, let's make them all nines. Because we've seen it. I've seen it more with sport. You know, it's just change is too big. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So how do you suggest people kind of once they get these values, start to migrate forward and put basically a plan together? Yeah. So I'll actually ask you from your, let's use this health and wellness value. Okay.

[00:33:54] Somebody says, hey, I have a five on health and wellness and I want to improve that. What question as a coach would you ask? Yeah. For me, I would start where their goal, you know, what do they want to be? And then we kind of, from the coaching aspect, we get a baseline of where they're at, you know, with those activities. And then we slowly walk them, you know, as you improve, you, you know, keep moving the bar a little bit for lack of a better term until they get to where either, you know, either they want to be or the best they can be.

[00:34:22] Because sometimes where they want to be physically, you know, is not, you know, where they can be. Exactly. So if say somebody is like, oh, five out of 10 on health and wellness and you say, great, what is your routine look like now? And you're seeing that they only walk for 20 minutes three times a week. Okay. Okay. Can we get that to 30 minutes? And then over time, can we get that to four days? How do you like, you know, moving? Is it nature? Okay.

[00:34:51] When's the last time you were out for a hike with your family? Put that on the calendar, commit to it. And they're going to, because it's a value, they're going to get automatic feedback of, oh, that was great. That made me so happy. I'm so glad I went on a hiking trip with my friends. I haven't done that in so long. Why have I not done that more often? They're going to feel so good. They're going to want to do it again because it's value aligned. And then you start to create a behavior change, a behavior pattern.

[00:35:21] Six months later, what is your, you know, health and wellness value? Oh, now I'm at a seven out of 10. Okay, great. You've added more walking. You're hiking more. What are you excited about? What would feel best for you? Maybe a, you know, a group exercise class or to do it with friends. All right. And you look for opportunities and you create, you know, an action plan that they can implement behaviorally. Right. And that's what is a needle. Yeah. And I just pivot.

[00:35:51] That would be the same in corporate. So, you know, if you want to get this skill or that skill, I think one of the biggest things you said that I get people to do anything is actually schedule and commit to it. Yes. And so there's a moment in time if it's scheduled to where you have to make that decision. You have the opportunity to make the decision. If your calendar is open, someone else makes a decision for you. And I think it is much harder in human nature to, you know, say no to a meeting that time was like, it's just harder. Right.

[00:36:21] Yeah. And so I think planning, having that mindfulness to plan out your week and then, you know, there are going to be times, you know, recording this publicly, maybe not my best thing, but I'll say spring and fall in New England. And there are two hour blocks in the early afternoon where I'm outside because that's, you know, when the sun's out and it's warm enough to play outside, people might send a note and ask, but I, you know, I now control that choice. They don't control that choice for my, for use of my time to align my goals.

[00:36:50] So I think that scheduling that you mentioned, Holly, like go schedule the walk or I would pivot and say, go schedule that training class, go schedule the webinar you want to do. I just go do that because, you know, the, uh, I think it's past this time was Popeye with Wimpy's. Oh, you know, I'll gladly pet you Tuesday for a hamburger today. Like that waiting for it to happen. And I'll, I'll deal with that later thing. It doesn't really work in today's environment. There's so much stuff. Yes. And borrowing an athletic concept of, um, motivation.

[00:37:20] So I like to say discipline over motivation. So Paul, you mentioned family is a higher priority than work for you. So that might look like at 5 PM, you have a hard stop. If somebody, you know, puts a meeting up, it doesn't mean it's easy for you to say no, but you're honoring, you have discipline to say no, right? Because you've made a commitment to reprior, to prioritize family over work. So again, it's easy, but it, it's simple, but not easy, but you can identify work with,

[00:37:49] uh, clients and individuals to see what their value is, create an action and a plan. But the key is you have to say disciplined because motivation gets you started, but discipline keeps you there. And that's the power of a coaching relationship where you can lean on for support until it becomes a muscle memory until it becomes habitual. And Paul, did you experience that? Oh gosh. Yeah. I mean, I, to the point where for me, actually, I couldn't do it well in a corporate setting.

[00:38:19] Like I struggle. That's a me thing, right? Like I, the ability to say no to that meeting that needs to end at five or to cut off a meeting. That's like, I need, I wanted to get it right so much that I would let things both, you know, go over. And then next thing, you know, I'm not home until my kids are getting ready for bed. Right? Like that was a me thing that I needed a different constraint, which is no, the client kind of wants me to end the call now because they know that it costs them more if I'm still on the call. Right.

[00:38:47] So like there's an actual governors in my life around time now, which just work better. So it's the same phenomenon, but I experienced it to the point where I like, it was the problem, right? The problem was just putting the time wasn't, wasn't as effective as it needed to be because I couldn't break away from not solving the problem before I left. Brilliant. Yeah. And with neurodivergence and understanding your brain's tendency and thought patterns, and

[00:39:15] then how can you create a compelling reason to change? Totally. Totally. My team even now knows when Paul gets into hyper-focus mode, like look out because like seven hours later, he'll finally exit the tunnel. But it's like, I need things to break me out of the tunnel, right? Like that's the, that's what I had to learn about myself. And in order to do that and not have family lose out, you know, a change of venue, a change of mode was necessary. That's why it took three years to figure it out, right? Yeah.

[00:39:43] Not true for everyone, but for me, it was like, how do you honor them all? But I think that's a critical part, Paul, is, you know, when you're writing, here's my goals, you know, professionally, personally, and then you kind of have to align the other piece of it to be like, you know, who am I? What am I? What are my skills? What are my faults? You know, how many hours in a row can I work? You know, when do I need a break? What do I need?

[00:40:09] Like, like that stuff actually, I think is part of the hardest thing to sit down and figure out. Like, cause I think everyone wants, you know, you want to hear and you want to be like, I'm good at everything. And then you start going down the list. And if you can literally look at it and be like, okay, I'm marginal at that. I suck at this. I'm reasonably okay at this. Oh, there's something I'm good at. Like, you know, like you can go down that list and then you can apply that appropriately to your goals. Because I think if you assume you're going to do everything well, it's a recipe.

[00:40:36] Cause then I, we see it more, you know, Holly, I don't know how often you see it in corporate where you're at coaching, but you know, if, if things don't go well, the first four, six, eight weeks, like then the, I can't do this. It's just not, this isn't a good plan. You know, it's not coming together. Then, you know, they don't fall off the wagon. They jump, right. They don't even wait for it to slow down. I don't know if you see that Holly, but in that, to me, that's a big part of it is, you know, who am I as a human and how does this align to what I think I want to get done? Right.

[00:41:06] I mean, identity and the story that we tell ourselves. And I think, you know, maybe cliche, but we've heard this phrase, you know, challenges reveal character. And so when things don't go well, you know, who, how do you show up? So if you had any one last bit of advice, you know, for people that are kind of weighing how they, you know, think about moving forward and being happy overall, putting it all together,

[00:41:32] do you have kind of a, you know, place to start or a, you know, word of advice on where someone could get started? Yeah. I mean, I would say don't feel like you have to go at it alone. We are communal by design. Partner. I would say get a coach. Of course, I'm going to say that, right? You don't have to struggle and suffer. You can expedite this process or at least make it more fun by bringing someone in. It is not a weakness. It is not a sign that you can't.

[00:42:01] It is a sign that you want to grow. So, you know, if you're an employee at an organization, reach out and see if they have, you know, vendors that they can connect you with, executive coaching providers. If so, pursue that route, right? Because they're preferred vendors that have been approved and you can kind of streamline that process. If not, look elsewhere. Look in community. If you know people that seem happy or have gone through a challenge, ask them how they did it, right?

[00:42:30] Lean on your social support and never feel like you have to have all the answers all the time. It's not what we're supposed to do. I'll just piggyback on if you see those folks that kind of have it together. It's interesting. Reach out and talk to them because I think what you all end up finding out that, you know, it might look together, but they were definitely ebbs and flows and troughs. And, you know, and so this is going to be a nice, easy, smooth path thing.

[00:42:56] I don't think anybody's had that, you know, and they've figured it out over a period of time. So I really like finding a second resource to bounce stuff off, especially either a trusted or third-party resource that can, you know, when you say, oh, I'm good at this stuff and they're like, are you though? Like, you know, Sean, I don't think you are. And ideally a human, right? Yeah. We do have AI and very seriously, you know, I think the number one use case for chat GPT is still for therapeutic uses, especially for younger populations.

[00:43:25] So it's a great first step. And if that modality is helpful for you, a human would be even better. Yeah. I think the human, I mean, I'll step out. We talk a lot about AI out here, Holly, for the comp space, but I know I saw Yuna, which was at HR Tech last year. But the thing that struck me most is I kind of made a fake person when I went in the box and talked to them, mostly because I was scared they'd have more information about me than I wanted. And they were very placating to me on the thing.

[00:43:55] And so I think that AI's ability to push back, and we've talked about it even in the comp space, where it kind of wants to make you happy when you're asking questions that are more, you know, numbers oriented. It still wants to make you happy. And so it's not a happy, I don't think it's always a happy discussion to start. I think that's the place of like, here's all my realities. How do I meld it together? And you need, I think, still a little bit of that human interaction. The last question I always end with, Holly, is kind of interesting to be interesting to

[00:44:24] ask you, but I'm going to ask it because you have not really been in HR per se, but you've been in leadership development and an employee. But if you could fix any one thing automagically in HR, what is the one thing you wish would just automatically be fixed? For progression and development in role to not solely be tied to the number of direct reports you have.

[00:44:53] That progression and development in organizations needs to be parallel for individual contributors, subject matter experts, and people that are uniquely equipped to handle leadership. These are different. In most organizations, people ascend and they become managers and leaders, and they do not have the skills, capacity, or desire. Organizations need to do themselves a favor and create parallel tracks for individuals to perform in the way that suits them best.

[00:45:23] Oh, that is right up our alley in the career framework standpoint, Holly. You said I wasn't HR. Bam! Bam! That is a bam! Yeah, take that. I'm not going to hear the end of that. Bam! That's what I'm going to hear. I'm not going to hear the end of that the whole time. This has been great. Obviously, you guys can, everyone will tag Holly. You can find Holly. Holly has, I won't lie, more of the better episodes on meta performance. We're on the coaching stuff.

[00:45:52] There's a couple of really good ones recently, though. If you take a listen to Holly's episodes over there, I'll throw the soft plug out because it crosses spaces, and Paul will find this interesting. One of the better episodes there about finding happiness and do whatever also is Maria Colacurcio's episode is over there who's at Sendio. She'll kill me when this comes out, but I think she's managing a company. She is a global high rocks, you know, rock star and has like, I don't know, 100 kids. I think it's seven.

[00:46:22] But all, you know, 18-ish and under, 20 and under, and is smiling all the time. So she's either faking us all out or she's, it's a great episode on that kind of ties into this. Thanks so much for coming on. We'll get everything tagged. And thanks everyone for listening and reach out to Holly if you have questions. Thank you so much. Thanks, Holly. Hey. Bye.