Thriving in the Creator Economy with Special Guest Ryan Kielma

[00:00:07] Welcome everyone to another episode of HR Amplio 2.0. I'm Pete Tiliakis and as always, I'm joined by the legendary Julia Fernandez. Welcome, Julie. Thanks, Pete. I know we got a fun one coming up. Gen Z's are my favorite and we're about to dig into one with someone that we've both gotten to know really well, Ryan Kielma. Yes, yes. Our guy behind the guy, our guy behind the show, our third cast member, I guess you could say that no one has probably met on the HR Amplio 2.0.

[00:00:36] Ryan is a huge, huge asset to us. He's our producer and he makes the magic happen. So excited to have you, Ryan. Stoked to have you here, man. No, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. And we were just figuring out you're actually a fringe Gen Z-er. You barely made the cutoff. I barely made the cutoff yet, 1999. All right. We'll take it, man. We'll take it. Well, we got a lot of questions. I know Julie's Gen Z series has been super insightful. I enjoy them. I know our guests have been enjoying them.

[00:01:01] And I think it's cool, man, to just kind of peek into the minds of like the younger, you know, emerging workforce, as I would call it. And just talk about all the cool ways that you guys have available to you now that maybe other generations didn't have that you can make a living. But then also like these crazy times we're living in of how hard things are for, I mean, I have some kids along, you know, I have a millennial.

[00:01:24] I was just saying a geriatric millennial. Actually, I have a couple of Gen Z-ers and a Gen, I guess, what would it be between that? There isn't. It just went from, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I've got the Gen Z and I've got the, and I've got a millennial. And I think it's really interesting how they're all kind of going about finding jobs and figuring themselves out and doing what they're doing. So excited to have you, man. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, Ryan. So I know we, we will get eventually to how you got hooked up with us, which kind of puts you in the HR world, right?

[00:01:54] But I, but I actually, with all the Gen Zs on the series so far, we really just wanted to start with your debut into the workforce and, you know, how you navigated your way through school and the things that you liked and disliked into your first job, which was actually, you know, kind of a real job, right? Tell us a little bit about that.

[00:02:14] Yeah. It's a little bit of a, a little bit of a spiral adventure. So I went to school for mechanical engineering. I went to CCSU out in Connecticut and I loved it. It was a good time. I got to, I think I did a couple of years and that's, I didn't fully make it through because I ended up going to my first job as a junior draftsman, a local aerospace manufacturer, worked through there for about a year. It was like my first real professional role outside of like serving and warehouse jobs, all the stuff you do is when you're a high schooler.

[00:02:41] And so I finished up my first job there, moved out to my next company. And the second company was really where I had the big pivot moment for myself and ended up leaving the engineering space altogether. It was a little weird. I remember sitting in my office surrounded by a couple of engineers. It was a weird setup. We all faced the walls and talked to each other that way, which was different. It was a little different. But I remember I was sitting there. I had like 200 parts of my desk. I had a team. I had resources. It was, it really was,

[00:03:09] like the golden setup, like on paper. I checked all the boxes. I was climbing the corporate career ladder. And, but I remember they were talking about like Wonder Woman from the sixties. I think it was Eleanor Woods, you know, what they have for lunch and, you know, kids for the soccer games. And I was a little bummed out because I was like, this, this is going to be, this is my life. Like it's over. Like, this is what I'm going to do for the rest of my life. And I'm like, I guess this is what it is. And I'm very much so in the Gen Z bucket of like, I want to, I want to do something. I want to leave an impact. I want to, I want to be here and like be here and be useful.

[00:03:40] So I remember going home that night. It was a long, long day at work. And it was funny. It's even weird to say this, that YouTube changed, changed the career path of my life. I watched some kid, Kelly Wacasa. He was, it was like a snowboarding video. And he said like, do it excites. I was like, oh my gosh, that sounds amazing. That's a life quote. So I took that to heart. I was like, what's the first thing I could do to go out and find something fun to do? I was like snowboarding. So I did a bunch of traveling. And from the traveling, it opened up a bunch of different random jobs.

[00:04:09] I've explored so many different industries. And oddly enough, I'm now in podcasting. So there's add this to the long list of different roles I've had. So yeah, that's, that was kind of my start. You know, it was a little crazy, a little reckless, but it was fun and lots of good stories there. Yeah. I'm picking up podcasting as an extreme sport, right? Is that the category we go into? Awesome.

[00:04:33] Yeah. I mean, look, we were, we were kind of talking this a little bit and I've always been fascinated by this is just the creator economy has enabled this, right? Like the idea that, and I think we all, I mean, we, this is, this is part of the creator economy podcast, right? Social media, anything, right? Etsy. I go to Etsy. I love Etsy. I've been shopping there for years. It's where I buy a lot of unique gifts.

[00:04:53] Um, shout out to Etsy. Maybe they should, maybe they should sponsor us. But anyway, I'm just saying, I think that there's what is really refreshing about that is like, you can kind of take your passion and your creativity and your, you, right? Your uniqueness. And you can turn it into something. And that can be as crazy as, I mean, like you said, YouTube, right? You've got people on there that are like making, you know, millions of views from someone making candles. Right. Or like, there's just the craziest things out there.

[00:05:22] You can learn to play guitar from someone. You can learn to snowboard. You can, I don't know about you guys, but I like watching the ones where the people, and I hate this, but I like watching the ones where the people climb the really tall buildings. And it scares the life out of me, but I can't stop watching it. And I, and I sweat and I get so excited and anxious. And then I'm just like, why did I watch that? And then I watch another one. And it's just, but the point is, it's like, it's entertainment, but it's also, it's, it's, it's creator, right? It's, it's, it's someone being able to express themselves in a way that oddly.

[00:05:52] Right. Resonates with someone, some audience, someone's getting those millions of clicks they're drawing. And, and at the end of the day, it's entertainment. It's, it's, it's, it's income for some people. So I'm just fascinated by that. Just a million ways, especially here in America that you can make money. And the idea that you can take just the simplest thing and turn it into a business now is, is so beautiful. I think it's really, really awesome. So congrats to you, man, for, for, for recognizing very soon you wanted to get off the wheel.

[00:06:20] Yeah. I was a early quarter life crisis at 19 years old. So that was, that was its own ordeal. No, it's good though, man. You figured it out early. You figured out early. There's a lot of us who were like trapped in a cubicle at some point. I thought, I mean, I know when I got out of the military and I was sitting in a cubicle, I was sitting in a cubicle in the military kind of. And I thought that was the end of the world. I thought that was prison. And then when I got out, I got, I got a job that I really loved actually in HR. And I just found what I liked to do, I guess. And it worked, but, but still there is,

[00:06:49] this idea that like, is this it? Like, this is all I'm ever going to do is just push buttons and you know, whatever. But yeah, no, anyway, kudos to you, man. And we, we appreciate having you on the show. Hey, so besides the, besides the existential crisis at 19, right. You quickly, you quickly happened upon. Did you wrestle, like talk to me about wrestling with leaving the idea of a steady job. Yeah.

[00:07:12] To be your own boss. Like how, how hard was that? Or had you not yet fully entered the world of, oh my God, I have bills and responsibilities and I can't give up a paycheck. Like how's that happened?

[00:07:26] No, that's a, that's a good question. And there's a lot of internal conversations you have to have when you walk towards something like this, especially with all the risk that comes to it. I do miss the paychecks. I do miss having the already prebuilt team around me. It's almost like your own little like support system work family. Like that is beautiful in its own sense.

[00:07:46] Yeah. Um, there's safety in that, right. You have, you have a system and you have a group that's there always there for you for whatever you need. It's, it's amazing. The difficult part I think about this was, uh, and I think the difficult part about myself is I'm very, I like the risk. I like the craziness. I like being a little reckless, you know, hence, you know, dropping out and moving across the country in a week. Um, so I've always, I've never been too afraid to just go after something and figure it out in the moment. Um, it's been through a lot of the stories and experiences I've had along the way. And so starting a business,

[00:08:16] and chasing after something that I wanted to do and I wanted to build and learn on my own, it wasn't super, super scary to go after, but there are a lot of downsizing, especially when you lose the benefits. Like I have to go source my own benefits now, right? Where do I, who do I go to? What's the best one is what's good for small business. If I bring people on, there's a lot more questions that come up, but, um, learning on your own. I mean, I'm self-starter, so I don't really have too many problems picking up on new skills.

[00:08:39] I was just going to ask you if there's like this expiration date, right? Cause a lot of times folks that at that age, we were young enough to have parental fallback plans, you know, and folks might have maybe a window till 26 before they got to figure out things like benefits and, and, and other things that you wrestle with going into the workforce.

[00:08:58] But it sounds like you've kind of gotten by the wrestling part and gotten yourself to the, no, no, I'm really doing this. And, you know, it's not just a backup, you know, on my parents' plan sort of thing. Is that, is that true? I definitely wrote it out till 26, a hundred percent. I was very, very grateful to be on it. I was like, you guys are amazing. As you should. As you should. The access, whatever it is, but, uh, very, yeah, I was very, very grateful to be on that till 26. I know it's a fortunate situation.

[00:09:25] How refreshing. Cause I'm, I'm actually saying this cause I feel refreshed by it. And, you know, I've been on my own now for three years. I love the control over my art, if you will.

[00:09:33] I love the control over what I create and do. Um, but, and the freedom that I think it gives me. And I, and I hear that a lot when I talk to Uber drivers, right? Just as an example, I take a lot of Ubers. I don't, uh, you know, like to the airport and things in different cities. And, and I commonly hear the word freedom and flexibility come up when you ask them, why do you do this? Um, how much is that? I mean, given that you had that taste of corporate America and now you're kind of on your own, obviously what's the difference? Like what's the contrast there?

[00:10:02] I think the structure is beneficial. I have, like I said, having those pre-built systems really guides you through it and allows you to grow straightforward versus the freedom is nice. Cause it gives you a lot more flexibility when it comes to like life or, you know, I might be my buddies play pickleball on Friday. So I can just kind of, as long as I work done for the day and I'm good, I can go play pickleball, which is my favorite part. So the flexibility of that for life is, um, worthwhile, but you have to learn. It's, it's less, it's less linear. You have to jump around and move around.

[00:10:32] And be flexible with both the problems and the outcomes. So that's, that's kind of the juggle, the trade-off that I'm, I'm seeing now as I experience and go through all these things. What's up everyone. Pete Tiliakas here coming to you with a personal invite to join me and team Betterment as we host a live panel discussion on one of my favorite topics, the power of flexibility in the workplace. I'll be joined by a stellar HR exec lineup on May 20th at 12 PM Eastern time for flexibility enablers, HR tools shaping the future of work.

[00:11:02] Together we'll unpack how forward thinking companies are using flexibility to differentiate in the war for talent by shaping highly personalized and differentiated employee experiences that drive measurable business outcomes. Whether you're an HR leader, a people manager, or just passionate about the future of work, this is your chance to hear practical insights and walk away with strategies you can apply and meet. So registration is now open for this unique live event, and I hope I'll see you there.

[00:11:27] Yeah. You're reminding me of lots of things that Nico raised, right? In our first Gen Z millennial, Gen Z conversation. But so like, how do you measure your growth or how have you marketed and grown? You know, I don't know when you decided maybe podcasting, you know, was it just happenstance that you ran across Pete or that you knew us or something got you in that direction? And what kind of kept you and pulled you into saying, Hey, this is, this is a thing for me.

[00:11:54] It was accidental. I was thinking of how I wanted to tell this because I honestly, I fell into this. It was a family friend that reached out. He needed help with content distribution. And he was like, I know you do marketing. I know you work in content. You know, can you help out with this? Of course. So I hop in, we're working through his projects, getting stuff out. And through him, I met Pete, I met you. And through Pete, I've met so many awesome, amazing other individuals along in the space. And it's been a wonderful journey since then. I really haven't left. I just kind of stuck around like, kind of like the fly that flew in the door.

[00:12:22] Like I'm not leaving now. Now I'm here. So that's good. We like it that way. I love it here. It's good people. Yeah. Well, that's why we didn't ask, how did you get into HR? Why do you stay? Obviously you're not in HR, but we've, we've sucked you into that world obviously now. I'm ready now. And exposed you to more HR than you probably ever thought you'd be, be exposed to. And I think it's fair to say you, you're seeing it as an, as kind of like a niche or a microcosm, right? That, that really has some interest. Am I putting words in your mouth or is that, is that true?

[00:12:52] This is a really powerful space and that's really why I enjoy working in here. And while again, I'm by no means an expert, I don't know anything around policies or laws, but I'm interested. And I love listening in at least on the conversations, what change is happening. And when I try to explain this to friends and family, I'm like, I'm working with the people that want to make a difference in the work world. Like these are good people with big ideas.

[00:13:12] Like I just to be able to be the more or less, I guess, like a middleman when it comes to content and just be here to help get those ideas out to the world and help everyone show up consistently. Like I love just doing that. It's, it's been a really, really great opportunity. Yeah. I think it's really rad too, because you're, you're behind the scenes on shows of some of the top thought leaders that I know I admire and listen to shows that I was listening to before I had a podcast.

[00:13:36] Some, some of them and, and some we've been around longer, but I think it's interesting because you're, you're getting this sort of like it's almost like you're getting this private front row to all of this incredible knowledge. And yeah, you could almost maybe write a book across all the podcasts. I think by the time it's over, it's so cool, man. Of course it really is. Like I, I, the conversations I get to listen to, I, if I'm being truthful about, I wouldn't have listened to these originally if I wasn't here in the first place.

[00:14:04] So, so now that I get to like actively be here and listen to every episode, it's, it's just like you said, it's a masterclass from some of the best of the best. And it's, it's cool to hear the conversations that are going around the industry. And I love this. Yeah. I bet it's a bit of, it's gotta be a bit of an acquired taste, right? I mean, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. HR people, blah, blah. It's good stuff though. They're good conversations. It empowers the world, right? And it's relevant to everyone.

[00:14:26] I mean, even if you don't realize it, human capital management and, and human capital power, if you will, it fuels the world. I mean, literally. And, and without, without humans and people, we can't do anything. So I think it's, I think everyone can relate, even if they haven't been in a corporate America or been in HR, you can relate to being, getting a W-2. You can relate to, you know, having to deal with a job application or, or going to a job interview.

[00:14:54] I think everyone has that, has that lens and some sort of an opinion of what that's like. Hopefully it's good for most, but there's a lot of bad out there. I just, I mean, as a researcher, I talk to buyers all the time across all towers of HR. And I just hear some crazy stories that really just, just make me think like, wow, like there's good and bad and everything. And, and HR is one of those. And so, yeah, it's interesting. I'm sure you probably, it probably resonates a lot more than you, than you ever thought it would.

[00:15:23] It really does. It's, it's the glue that keeps everything together, right? That's what it seems like to me, which is cool. It's good. It's cool to learn about the inner systems that keep everything afloat. Like I didn't, I didn't realize that HR had so many roles and there were so many responsibilities to go into this and the, the depth of it. Just listening to this show in itself, I'm like, holy cow, payroll. I didn't realize it was that intense. There's so many towers of HR. There's so many. There really are. There really are. Yeah, no, it's great, man. And I, so let me ask you this. So let me ask you this.

[00:15:50] What was, do you think like, like, what's your passion around podcasts? I mean, did that, I mean, how did you navigate sort of towards that and, and, and have found a home there if maybe that wasn't where you started, obviously. But like, what's the, do you have a passion for that? I mean, do you, are you a podcast fan? I love audio books. And so that's this same, same, right? Yeah. So I think with marketing and one of the reasons I love it, it's, it's all about building great stories and good conversations around. Whatever service people experiences, whatever the case may be.

[00:16:21] And podcasting is a great way to just have consistent stories that go out. And we all gravitate towards stories, which I think is the, the really special part about podcasts. Like you can listen to an audio book and that's a curated narrative over, over one specific topic or, you know, whatever narrative you're looking at. But podcasts, these are like small bite-sized stories and you have new characters coming in all the time. And it's a great place from a high level perspective of content. And then you can take this and you can dish this out in so many different formats.

[00:16:49] And so I love the versatility, I think, from a technical perspective of a podcast. But then from like the people perspective, there's so many new people that come in. You never know who you're going to meet, see, listen to. And I think that is special in itself. So that's, that's what brings me in. It's the people and what we can do with it. I really like what you said, Ryan, just now about the, so many different formats, right? So you've, you've been with us from the very start and the kind of the, the brains behind getting us out there in many cases.

[00:17:15] And we started audio only and now are moving over toward a video format with YouTube. And we see more ways or means that folks will take clips, you know, take clips and blast them in different places. Different tools are surfacing all the time. I mean, you have to have just a love to digging into the latest, greatest, or what's even new, right? Because I know you, you paved that way for us many times. Surfing the algorithm. Yes, a hundred percent. Yeah.

[00:17:44] It's, I think the, the fun part about social media and that's, that's what I did prior to this. I was working with a bunch of small businesses trying to keep A, their content pipeline full, and then also distribute it to all the different platforms. The fun part about social media is it's constantly evolving, always changing. And the conversations that are worthwhile and happening, they don't stick around for very long. And I, I don't want to use the word trend because that's very, it's very buzzwordy, but there's always something new to talk about.

[00:18:10] And so just inserting yourself in those different, you know, micro communities, large communities, whatever the case may be. There's always availability for that. And so, like I said, the podcast, you're able to insert this into so many different places and places, which I think is unique to itself. Yeah. Have you seen, even in your time jumping into this space, some really big faux pas? Like, oh man, that was really stupid. Like, you know, people are trying a lot of new stuff out there and there's lots of new tools and there's lots of new ways.

[00:18:40] HR always hears the craziest things that go wrong that nobody else should hear. And it just, just struck me like, you know, have you seen anybody like really bungle some stuff pretty good? Honestly, not yet. I see, I see a lot of good true colors here. I haven't, and this is by no means trying to glaze over anything. Like anybody and everybody that I've listened to within this space, there's a lot of good intention behind everything. And even when it comes to the distribution, it's just creative formats. How do you want to show up to people and what information do you want to be presented and highlighted? Right.

[00:19:10] Like I think there's some like creative nuances, like, you know, you see some, maybe like some weird typography and, you know, wherever the case may be. Maybe you don't have a creative team behind them, but I think the intention behind what's going out, that's, that's always been good. So I've got to see anybody truly fumble anything. So far, so far, so good. Knock on wood, you know? Well, I feel like you're a little bit of our safety, right? I mean, a lot of people do it themselves and they start doing it themselves and, and with more or less acumen.

[00:19:37] And then just even having somebody that's focused on doing it good and doing it right for us has been, you know, has been invaluable, really. I don't even know if it's so much that there's a right or wrong. I actually think, I mean, I've, I've been listening to podcasts now, I think probably since about 2008, 2010, something like that. A long time, right? I've been a long time adopter and I've listened to many, many podcasts, popular ones, not popular ones. I've been on many of them. And I think that the key is the authenticity.

[00:20:07] Like people see through the fake. There's, there's plenty of fake out there. There's a lot of fake in the HR influencer space. There is. And, and there's a lot of, a lot of contrived shows and, and things that people see through, I think. Right. And you can see it in mainstream media where you've got some folks who have been incredibly popular, you know, celebrities that have gone into these podcasts that failed miserably because they overproduced it.

[00:20:30] And they over sort of deauthenticated it to a point that it was almost like this, this corporate thing that people can't attach to. And I think it's more about just being yourself, being authentic and trying to share. And that's how we were born all out of, Hey, we're, we're having these incredible conversations. My network of folks on my mobile phone is who's who of, of people in this industry, founders and leaders and thought leaders. And I'm like, if I'm talking to them, you know, here and there, why can't we figure out a way to platform that and share that with other people?

[00:21:00] And that's, that's exactly what we did. So like us, it was just, just about authenticity and, and getting it out there. And I just think a lot of people who try to go into content creation of any kind, they think it has to be perfect. And I don't, I don't think it does. In fact, it, it needs to be flawed. It should be flawed. You're flawed. I'm flawed. We're all flawed. Um, and I think the more we can show those flaws and, and be real, it, it's going to come across far, far better. So I think that's the right.

[00:21:27] If you, if you want to be honest, um, in content creation is the authenticity, especially as AI keeps proliferating. There's plenty of fake, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's a whole, whole conversation right there. I, um, yeah, I'm right there with you with the authenticity approach of this. People connect with people. You think about when you make friends or you meet new, I don't know. I was going to say meet new family members. That's, that's strange. Uh, but as you meet new people, right?

[00:21:53] Like you, you connect with the people that they are and the person that they are and how they show up to the world. It's the same thing with content creation. Yeah. Um, there's, you can go down the list of influencers that exist right now on, let's say Instagram or TikTok, just the name of those platforms that have these very curated, uh, personas of how they think they should show up. And then inevitably, and it happens time and time again, uh, it eventually fizzles the true colors show.

[00:22:21] And it's like, okay, that was your initial intention with this, you know? So I'm right there with you with showing up as yourself. That's your brand. That's who you are. Right. You're right. If you show up with a smile, you know, you'll get smiles back. Simple as that. Yeah. Agreed. And I think people, like I said, I think you see people see through it. Right. And, and they, you know, they want, they want to, they want to be able to connect with something that, that seems like resonates to them, obviously a subject wise, but also seems like someone that, like, I always feel like I listen to things of people. I could, I could hang out with that person. Right.

[00:22:50] I'd love to have a conversation with that person or this person. Like I don't find myself listening to things when I'm kind of like, ah, who cares? Uh, you know, it's empty, right? You can kind of feel that, I guess. So, yeah. Yeah. Hey, I want to ask you this, like Ryan, like that, one of the big things I think that a lot of Gen Z and, and, and young people at every generation, we all go through this of like kind of being lost a little bit, maybe paralyzed when you're first, like, what do I do? Right. Is it, is it college? Right. Okay. Great. I did college. Now what? Right.

[00:23:17] What do you, what would you say to someone who is kind of stuck or, or just lost, or maybe are in that situation where they've gone down a path? Maybe that was college or whatever. Um, and they've landed somewhere where it's not quite what they wanted or they're finding it's not quite, quite what they wanted. Like, what would you, what would be your advice? If I had to give advice to my younger self, cause I, that's the position I think I'd be in at that point. Or yeah, most people would be in great way to frame the question better.

[00:23:43] Actually, you know, it just try things, keep trying things. And it's, it's, this is said so many times and I hear it on every, you know, mindset guru, business guru, social posts, whatever, but it's okay to fail. It's okay to mess things up. The kind of time back to your always having to be perfect like that stops you, that holds you back from getting anything done. And if you don't get anything done, there's no progress being made. Any step in any direction does not matter. Like go work at like hop jobs. I did that for a very long time.

[00:24:11] Not saying I'm proud of it, but you know, I got to work in a bunch of different industries. I got to meet a bunch of different people. There's learned experiences I got from them. And I was able to build my own perspective on how this workforce thing worked and what different industries I liked, what industries I didn't like. And I don't think I would be in the position I am now doing what I'm doing now. Um, if I hadn't just gone out and tried things and I know there's the, the candidate like, oh, I'm too old or I, you know, I have responsibilities. I don't think there's ever a bad time to go and try things like you're just trying.

[00:24:40] It's not like you're marrying yourself to it. You always have the option to leave and go back to what you were doing. That's, that's always available. But I think just given a little bit of effort, try out, try something, anything, and then see where it goes. You know, I think it's worth it. I think a lot of failure is rooted in never starting for most people. They, they, they angst themselves out of it. Right. And, and you're right. I, I love what Gary V talks about, right? He tells people fail, fail a hundred times. He's like, you're 26, you're 28, whatever that, you know, whoever he's talking to, he always reminds him like, dude, you don't got to figure this out.

[00:25:09] And, and you might not figure it out until you're 50 and that's okay. It's, it's a long road, like fail, try. But I think the secret to that is go ahead and fail. But if you fail and then you stop having motivation to do the next thing or to take on the next thing, then you get your, you know, then you find folks who are in just a complete rut of unproductivity. Right. And, and I imagine that happens to some folks, or I believe there's others probably too, right?

[00:25:35] And who are maybe less, who are more risk averse than you, who wouldn't just like jump and go, jump and go. But there's that, like what you said still holds true. Your advice still holds true. You can still try things on the side. You don't have, you know, you can make a less drastic or sudden jump and, you know, kind of take something up as a hobby. I think a lot of folks in the creative space will start doing it in their free time and, you know, hold down that, you know, boring nine to five or whatever it is that's making them think, oh my God, this is it.

[00:26:05] My life is right. You know, until they can build that business. So there's, there's so many different paths to take to be independent if you have that mindset and, and you value that and, and you're driven, you know, not everybody's driven. Yeah. To stay busy and, and grow while they're doing their own, you know, plotting their own course. Right. Yeah. I would say try, fail, learn and network. Right. I think, I think that's a big part of it. Like networking was a big part of how we got together.

[00:26:33] Um, and I think that's a, that's an underrated skill that younger people might not be cultivating as early as they should. And how does that impact Ryan? Like you've, you've learned a little bit, a lot about us, about Pete and I, and, um, you know, maybe you never even figured we would be much of a network. I know Pete has been far more valuable to you than I have, but you know, like talk about using these, these connections that you're making.

[00:26:56] And as you, you know, figure out where you're going, what you're doing and, and how that can, you know, lead you to new business or to growing your own business. That's worked out. I think. Okay. Right. In this space. So far, so good. Knock on wood. Right. But yeah, I think relationships go a mile. Uh, the people you surround yourself with and the people you interact with on a regular basis. Like that's truly where I think a lot of your strength comes from in a professional position.

[00:27:23] And not even to the aspect of like leverage, like you can leverage this relationship for X, Y, or Z. Like you learn so much from other people and their learned experiences and what they've done and the things that they're interested in. Like there's, there's so much to learn from those people. And so, like I said, if you show up, do good work with them and they want to do good work with you, um, that turns into something amazing itself. And then other opportunities come along because of that. Um, that's really been the whole approach that I followed. I should. And as much as I love marketing, I should be out doing the, the social post things and put more on LinkedIn. Like the things that I should be doing.

[00:27:53] Um, but truthfully, I enjoy just the relationship building of this and being able to spend time. And it's this weird parasocial relationship, I guess, to its own degree, where I'm listening to these conversations. I'm laughing alongside everyone, even though it's just a recording. Uh, but I have a great time and I feel like it's its own special little thing. And then I can reach back out afterwards and we can have conversations. Like, oh, I really like this. I'm always the number one fan. I always reach out. I'm like, I love what you guys are doing. This is a great topic. I thought about this too. Is flexibility the most valuable currency in today's talent marketplace?

[00:28:23] Pete Tiliakos here inviting you to join me on May 20th at 12 p.m. Eastern time for a live panel discussion featuring HR executives from Betterment, Wayroll HR, and Threat HCM. And together we'll share how modern organizations are leveraging flexibility enablers to shape highly personalized and differentiated employee experiences for talent strategies that drive measurable business results.

[00:28:45] Plus, we'll share proven strategies for hybrid and remote working success and best practices for aligning your HR, payroll, and benefits in support of a flexible workplace. So, don't miss the opportunity to learn why flexibility is the must-have competitive advantage in today's workplace. Register at the link in the post and I'll see you on May 20th. Yeah, I appreciate you, man. You're like a coach to us. You always give us some good tidbits to make little adjustments, man. We appreciate it.

[00:29:12] Hey, what's it like, by the way, coaching oldsters like Pete and I? I mean, you know, like we come from a different generation, a different time. We're really trying to keep up, right? And appreciate your help doing that. But like, you know, any antidotes or, you know, like just things about, you know, working with other generations? The Gen Zs take a lot of bash from our generations. Yeah, that's fair. No, I...

[00:29:39] Doesn't every generation take it from the one before? We always do. We're always lazy, you know? Gotta pass it off. It's all love. It's always love. And I wouldn't say oldsters, by no means. There's... I think there's just... I grew up with technology. I remember I signed up the terms and conditions on the original iPod and that was like a zone hold debacle. I've always had Instagram. I remember when it was still blue and white. Early YouTube was all HTML, just boxes and text. It was like this whole thing.

[00:30:06] So I think growing up alongside it has taught me a lot of things. And so transitioning that over to previous generations and like even my little brothers, they're way smarter and way faster with a lot of this stuff. I'm like, how'd you do that on a story post? That sticker? It goes, oh, you just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, I'm already aging out of this. It's downhill for me now. So I think from like coming from Gen Z going backwards, right? There's no magic tips. I think I'd really say to just keep asking questions.

[00:30:36] It's okay to ask the questions because it's daunting. It really is. There's so much and it's constantly being updated. They're constantly changing things. This year alone, I mean, just even focusing on Instagram, they keep rolling out updates like every month and it's a whole new platform at this point in comparison to where it was two, three years ago. Yeah, they all are, right? They've all evolved significantly. They really do. Yeah. In a lot of ways. And the monetization has been really fascinating. They all monetize a little bit differently, adds a lot of it, but it's fascinating how some of them have gone from nothing, no monetization to now obviously monetizing.

[00:31:05] And yeah, that's been interesting too. So let me ask you this. So the conundrum like today of sort of the cost and the ROI for many degrees, right? I mean, you have an engineering degree. It's obviously, I don't know if it's benefited you if you feel like it's been helpful in what you do, like if you even needed it. But do you feel like you draw on that? And what would you say for people who are on the fence that maybe are saying like, I don't know if I necessarily want to go to college. I want to go into some sort of content creation or I want to go into some sort of path that's

[00:31:34] maybe I just need these skills, but I don't necessarily need this long education. I could jump right in. I'm like, what are your thoughts on that like right now? So we all have to go to high school. We all have to get our diplomas. Yeah. That's, that's, that's granted, right? I don't think learning should stop after high school and it's unfortunate. There's always a sour taste left in your mouth after 18 or you're like, oh, I don't want to read another textbook ever again. Yeah. I have so many, so many creative textbooks behind me. I like there, I wish I could throw them away when I was a kid, but now I'm like, I wish I kept them all.

[00:32:03] Like there's so much good information and knowledge in these. Um, so I think for people that are, I guess, questioning whether or not to go to it, there is value in it. I'm, I'm on the stance of go build your own path. Like, cause it's available to you. Like it's, there's never been more opportunity than now. Um, you can post one thing, get 200 eyeballs and that 200 doesn't seem exciting, but that's 200 people that would have seen it before, you know, before you had this technology in this reach.

[00:32:27] Um, so I think for the people that are on the fence of going either way, again, it's that same note of go try something and see if it's worthwhile. Go to community college, like go to lower expense. You know, maybe you don't need to staple yourself to a six figure degree. Um, cause maybe, maybe the job market's not available for you when you get out. Maybe the skill sets that you gain from there aren't actually applicable to the entry level jobs that you're looking to go into once you get out of college. Right. Like there's right.

[00:32:54] It's, I don't think the college system is built correctly in its current stance, but I think there is some good value from it. It's still not oriented around skills, right? Just like much of the education out there, I think still has to make that transition. Um, and I'm sure like you can, there's technical colleges, right. Where you can get those things, but I don't think it is. It's all it's. And I even would say high school is a lot. Is law. I learned more in the military than I, than I, in bootcamp than I did in all of high school and a hundred percent college after, you know?

[00:33:23] So like, it's all about the skills, right. Especially today. And I think that so much of the education is not oriented around that still. And I'm sure it's getting there. Hopefully it will. But, um, yeah, I think that's, I think it's an interesting conundrum right now because a lot of folks I think are questioning like my son, you know, he was, uh, uh, he graduated in the pandemic, went to his first semester of college in the pandemic. And he was like, this is, this is stupid. Like, what am I doing? And he dropped out and actually he's trying to become a chef now. Um, and he's just following a passion.

[00:33:52] And I was like, Hey, go do what makes you, makes you happy, dude. That's art. That's, you know, that's whatever. Um, you know, find a way to, to make that work. And so he's, he's on his path, uh, working in a couple of ways, uh, with some, some business leaders that own restaurants and, and trying to kind of learn that side of the business too. Um, but I'm like, you know, my, my wife was worried and I was like, look, it's not the end of the world. Like he's going to be all right. Like he's, you know, as long as he gets skilled and follows his passion, there's nothing wrong with that.

[00:34:18] And I think that's the beauty of, of what the creator economy has created is this facility and this outlet for people to go and lean into and say, Hey, I can take an alternative path and be a superstar and be very happy with what I do and not have to sit in a cubicle or, you know, maybe go to college for, for four to six years, um, depending upon where they're, what they're trying to do. So it's, it's beautiful. That's part of what enables choices like yours. I think Ryan, you know, there are days and ages when there's stigmas associated with

[00:34:47] not with doing or not doing something and, and the pendulum swung and, you know, it's swinging hard and folks are recognizing, you know, that, that isn't, you know, a path that's needed by everybody for everything. And, and, you know, where maybe that was looked down upon at one point in time. Now it's, it's very clear that the skills that are needed in today's society, you know, honor every sort of profession really. And every sort of worker.

[00:35:15] And, uh, if we haven't had a guest yet that said, you know, a majority, some very large percent of jobs today won't even exist for your kids tomorrow. You know, like that, that should be said that the, sometimes the learning institutions are a day late and a dollar short. I'm not that they really need to be teaching. Julia, have you guys seen the, have you seen, I don't know if you've been at HR tech, they've had a Mike Rowe speak a couple of times, the dirty jobs guy. Right.

[00:35:39] And he has the, um, he has an, a, I think it's a, not a charity, like a 501, is it 501 three C as that works? Yeah. Uh, organization trying to reorient around and promote the skill trades, right? So craftsmen around, you know, building things and welding and, and, and construction and various different elements of, of sort of, uh, skill-based craftsmanship. Right. And the point he makes in this, and I didn't really think about it until I listened to

[00:36:08] him speak about it was, you know, in the, in, in our generation in the eighties and the nineties, and even in the two thousands, that was somewhat vilified, right? Because you weren't going to college, you were a laborer, right? And instead of a skilled craftsman, you were looked at as a laborer and he showed some old like posters that sort of, again, like, I don't want to say vilified, but kind of made it sound negative. Right. And so we've steered a lot of kids away from, you know, the generations away from trying to pursue those things.

[00:36:34] And we have a shrinking pool of skilled laborers in America. Uh, and I'm sure in other places too, that are, aren't able to do some of these things that are very vital, um, and very, very, um, very important. I know what I pay my plumber and my electrician and it's, uh, it's more than my lawyer. I'll tell you that. Um, so, you know, it's interesting that, that, that, that, that we have deterred that. And in a lot of ways, maybe even it har harmed our infrastructure in, in some, in some way. Right.

[00:37:01] I mean, are we getting the right people to, you know, skilled to come out and do these things that we, that we very much need? You hired a plumber lately? It's expensive. It's silly, but plumber, you get the master certified plumber. It's quite a few. It's, I think I pay him about $300 an hour. That's more than a lawyer. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Or on par. Right. I mean, my electrician, I had an electrician come over here. I had to hang something one time. Julie will appreciate this. And somehow I was hanging a television in my son, in my son's room and I hit the only

[00:37:31] line that like, it connects all the GFIs in my house. And this guy had to come and like rewire the wall. It was, yeah, it wasn't cheap. It was very embarrassing. That TV is never moving. It's never moving. Um, but I've never had that happen, but yeah, it was very expensive mistake. But I learned like, Hey, these guys, there's a lot of money in this. Let's not give Ryan any reason to want to try plumbing or. He's an engineer. He's an engineer. I know. That's right. Zip it, Pete. Zip it. You'd be perfect at that.

[00:37:58] No, but seriously, I think that that's a, that's a, that's kind of a mistake we've made of like downplaying skills in, in exchange for education. And, you know, here we are. Right. I think there's going to be a lot of room for almost like a skills economy. Right. Cause like the gig economy, that's, that's what I walked into. And I started, that's what really got the entrepreneurial bug going. And so even now it's like, what can you do and what can you provide to somebody? And if there's interest in it, that's now you found the gold mine right there. Right. So, uh, there's gonna be a lot of opportunity. We'll see.

[00:38:28] Projecting a little bit, Ryan, like, you know, how the, how your lifestyle is now, right. And valuing the freedom and stuff. Can you imagine this working at a point in time where you start to think about family and, you know, all the kind of, all the kind of things that tie people to more of the steady day to day grind. Don't do it. The advice. Don't do it. Don't do it. It's overrated. I mean, you ever have thoughts about that?

[00:38:57] Or maybe you can't work in the middle of the night. You know, just kidding. I'm just kidding. No, the late night's my favorite time. I, I, that's, uh, that's what I get all my work done is like three o'clock, four o'clock in the morning. Um, yeah, no, it's, that's the, that's the responsibility curve. And I've yet to truly get to that part. Cause now I can hang out with my friends when I want to go play pickleball on Fridays. We can go to the brewery on Saturday. If I want to take off in the middle of the day and just go for a drive, I can go do those things. So it allows me to have better, better outputs.

[00:39:25] I can go and recharge for a moment for whatever, whatever that is. Someday when you have a white booth tell you, I know you can change diapers in the middle of the day. So just, it might start to look like that first job experience. We're like, Oh God, I'm at that point. Yeah. It opens the door for that, you know, cause you're home all the time or, you know, you have, you have more flexibility than somebody who does, is working in a nine to five, a standard corporate nine to five, right? You can be a stay at home dad. I'm all for it. I'm all for it.

[00:39:56] Let's don't get ahead of ourselves. Let's don't get ahead of ourselves. Yeah. We're getting, we, we did, this is unfair. We didn't do this with our other John Z folks and make them project like, Oh no, the, what'd you call it? The responsibility curve. Yeah. I'll get there eventually one day. Awesome. Yeah. Well, well, how about a safer projection? It, um, you know, sticking in this is this HR community feels like it's a, it's a cool

[00:40:21] niche or cool spot within the whole podcasting and digital media and marketing that you're doing. Right. Can you see yourself sticking around in it and, uh, making it a specialty, right? And we need folks that really get all of the complexities of HR. And you've heard every single guest say somehow they ended up doing payroll by starting on some very odd. So if Pete doesn't make a payroll man out of you before, you know, before you retire, I might be surprised. I wouldn't do that to you, Ryan. I wouldn't do that to you.

[00:40:50] It's not for everybody, man. It's trying something new. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I know I, I love this space. I, uh, we, we mentioned it earlier where, you know, maybe it's a good or a bad story about how, how these inner workings work. Uh, I definitely come out as a disgruntled nine to five guy. Um, and so I'm, I'm excited to see all the change that was happening that I couldn't see prior. Uh, and now hearing about what both of you are doing.

[00:41:17] Uh, I don't know if I could list off all the other shows, but all the other practitioners, analysts, researchers, you know, like all of them there, like I said, good intentions, good hearts, good motivation for how to make this better for my generation, your generation, my little brother's generations. Like let's make it a little bit better. And I love to be the person that's helping me kind of push it forward, even though I'm not in the policies and, you know, helping push out payroll and all the, the actual tactical stuff, at least I can help with what I'm good at. And I think the synergy from that comes out and works out pretty well. So I will, I will definitely be here for a long time.

[00:41:46] I love what's going on and I'm happy to be a part of it. Yeah. We appreciate having you, man. HR by osmosis, Ryan. I know. Like it or not, you've stepped into HR. Yeah, that's a good time. It's like, uh, it's like, what's the thing on the, um, the Sopranos? Where the guy was like, every time I try to get out, it pulls me back in. You know, that's HR. That's payroll. That's what it does to you, man. It sucks you in and you never leave. So can't get rid of me now. I'm staying. You're here. You're here. That's good. We want to hear that.

[00:42:13] Hey, unless Pete comes up with another one of his, uh, Hey, I got a question for you. I think, you know, we, we could start to ask you where people can find you and get ahold of you and, uh, and a little bit of those sorts of things the way we always wrap. Yeah. I, um, I'm on LinkedIn, Instagram. Feel free to shoot me a DM on either platform. Uh, I think my email is in both of them as well. So you want to reach out that way. So I'm always around. I'm always at my computer, uh, and I would love to connect with whoever. Yeah. Well, look, if you've got a podcast out there, you're looking for, um, support for your,

[00:42:43] for your content, uh, your social media, your marketing, uh, Ryan's a great, great resource, man. So, uh, get on Ryan. How many, how many shows do you produce now? Do you, can you say? I'm up to 12 working on a couple more. So it's, it's growing. It's moving. Awesome. You're powering the work to find network in a lot of ways, man. And I, I really appreciate you. I'm really happy that you've, uh, that you found it, found, found a home here. Cause I think everyone appreciates you as much as we do. I'm sure. Absolutely. Yeah. Awesome.

[00:43:10] We're, you're so glad you found your way to extreme HR podcasts. I know, I know. It's a good space. People should listen more. Check out the shows. Yeah. Well, look, Ryan, thank you so much as all, you know, as always for everything you do, man, we really appreciate you power our show and, um, yeah, get in touch with Ryan if you need some help with your podcast. And hopefully this has been a good, another, another installment in Julie's Gen Z series, which I think is very, very, um, timely, very, very informative and, and certainly a peek into

[00:43:39] what the younger workforce is sort of looking for and what they're thinking. Uh, and just checking out your lens, man. I think you guys have, um, a lot of exciting things ahead of you in terms of as a generation, man, all the technology you've grown up with technology. So why not? Right. You're going to use it to power the next, next generation and the next future. So I love it, man. Awesome. All right. Well, thank you everyone. Appreciate you sticking around and we will talk to you next time.