The GenZ Lens on Annual Enrollment and the Employer Value Proposition

[00:00:09] Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of HR & Payroll 2.0. This will be one of those still rare episodes where I'm flying solo without my inspirational analyst co-host Pete Tiliakis.

[00:00:22] This episode comes from some on the road interviews at a large HR conference event in October. It was the Michigan Society for Human Resources Management, the Michigan SHRM.

[00:00:33] And it actually drew a crowd of about 825 HR leaders and professionals to Grand Rapids, Michigan and the Amway Conference Center.

[00:00:42] So huge wonderful turnout, lots of conversations, great engaged people. It was just a blast and I look forward to doing it a lot more in the future.

[00:00:52] Some of you may know Michigan is my home state and I have a son that lives there just about a two hour drive from me in Metro Detroit.

[00:01:00] So I was speaking at a session in Grand Rapids where he lives. The session was navigating the future of HR and it talked a lot about HR technology and automation.

[00:01:11] So like yes, AI stuff. And I captured a few recordings and some different conversations when I was there.

[00:01:18] So this episode is a three part podcast. The first two are some Showtime recordings with colleagues from Brown and Brown that were there.

[00:01:28] And I pulled them aside and asked them a little bit about the hot topics and you know what folks were talking about and interested in the most.

[00:01:36] Brown and Brown sponsors that event. They were there in Spain. So the first interview was with Kevin Cummings and Amy Gerard who are from that local Grand Rapids office.

[00:01:47] And they were talking about, you know, the hot topics and what they were hearing.

[00:01:51] And then the next 10 minutes were spent with Tyrone Jordan, TJ from the Brown and Brown office in Troy, Michigan, which is on my side of the state.

[00:02:00] And in honesty, I did two other remote recordings with folks from Alight and from iSolved and also from Paychex.

[00:02:08] But sadly, the recordings weren't usable. So I totally flubbed them and totally missed those.

[00:02:14] After the two 10 minute segments where you'll hear about benefits enrollment and culture and engagement is kind of the highlights.

[00:02:21] I thought it would be fun to cut over to an interview with my favorite source of Gen Z Intel, my own 20 something kids.

[00:02:28] My middle son, Nicholas, Nico, he goes by, lives in Grand Rapids.

[00:02:33] And so I had some time to get his thoughts and always probing to see what he sees as typical in his age group, not only with his two siblings, but with friends and colleagues.

[00:02:45] And so buckle up for another look through the Gen Z lens.

[00:02:53] I just thought we would grab a quiet corner and talk a little bit about some of the HR trends and what folks are talking about.

[00:02:59] We're getting to the end of the year here and there's been 10 months now of people trying to figure out how they're going to transform their organizations.

[00:03:09] Maybe, I don't know, like, let's start with what do you guys hear the most from folks that are that you're working with?

[00:03:15] And what are some of the things they're most interested in for HR?

[00:03:19] Go ahead, Kevin.

[00:03:20] I was going to say if you want to go for it.

[00:03:22] I think cost is important to people and creating a really diverse culture of inclusion is important to people right now.

[00:03:33] I think we're still, and I would agree with what you just said, I think we're still having the repercussions of the effects of COVID on workforces.

[00:03:42] And people learning to deal with remote work and how to manage the staff with that and how to manage a culture.

[00:03:51] A culture too.

[00:03:52] Yeah.

[00:03:53] That would be huge.

[00:03:55] I would think, you know, in your session you said that maybe HR are less worried about attracting and retaining employees, but I, my experience is that's still a big issue.

[00:04:08] And one of the things that I see a lot of our HR members that we work with dealing with is culture.

[00:04:18] As far as creating a climate where we can attract literally younger employees to enjoy, you know, have fun at even.

[00:04:31] Want to be there.

[00:04:32] Want to be connected to.

[00:04:34] That's a big driving force for a lot of the HR managers we work with.

[00:04:39] And benefits is certainly a part of that, but it's not the only part.

[00:04:44] And they are, you know, very concerned about engagement and about how they're going to onboard employees and help them feel grafted in and a part of their organization.

[00:04:57] So all those things combined, I mean, it's not going away.

[00:05:01] I do think I will add to this and that's not just to piggyback off your session this morning, but I do think automation of all that is becoming more of a priority.

[00:05:13] And people are looking for the services, the tools, the integrations.

[00:05:19] I know with a lot of our clients, I was joking this.

[00:05:23] I don't know if you were somebody else the other day that used to be, I was an insurance guy and we talked insurance all day long.

[00:05:29] And I think I talk about insurance.

[00:05:32] Not much.

[00:05:33] Yeah.

[00:05:34] 20% of my time, but there's so many other dynamics that we're helping our clients deal with as far as attracting a team and quality employees.

[00:05:44] So it comes down to that a lot.

[00:05:46] People that want to be there and feel balanced, it's important too.

[00:05:51] Yeah.

[00:05:51] You know, they want a life at work and outside of work too.

[00:05:55] Yeah.

[00:05:55] And that's way more important now.

[00:05:59] That's awesome.

[00:06:00] I know I've told you both, my son is on this side of the state.

[00:06:03] So I saw him last night for dinner.

[00:06:04] I'll see him again tonight.

[00:06:05] Okay.

[00:06:06] And I can't wait to talk to him about using his first job experience.

[00:06:09] Oh, okay.

[00:06:10] It's a small company and they're struggling with everything that's going on today.

[00:06:15] Yeah.

[00:06:15] And so they've been cutting benefits.

[00:06:17] Oh.

[00:06:17] Like 401k contributions and other bits.

[00:06:20] And he's so conflicted.

[00:06:22] Well, I shouldn't say that either, but okay.

[00:06:24] Okay.

[00:06:25] You know, but really he's like, I know that these things are part of a workplace experience

[00:06:30] and I want them, but he really loves the culture and he loves some of those non-handful

[00:06:35] things.

[00:06:36] Yeah.

[00:06:36] And so younger and younger crowds might not weight the benefits.

[00:06:42] Yeah.

[00:06:42] Stuff.

[00:06:43] Yeah.

[00:06:43] As heavily as they weight the culture.

[00:06:45] Yeah.

[00:06:46] They might have a different priority.

[00:06:48] Yeah.

[00:06:48] Than older people, you know, generations in the past.

[00:06:52] Yeah.

[00:06:52] Yeah.

[00:06:52] You know, okay.

[00:06:54] So I want to respond to that comment because a couple things come to mind.

[00:06:58] First of all, we went through a wave there post COVID where a lot of employers were trying

[00:07:03] to improve their benefits to attract.

[00:07:07] And I think we've had a lot of our employer groups asking about the voluntary worksite products,

[00:07:15] other programs that they've asked us.

[00:07:17] We have benchmark data that through employee surveys that identify what are, you know, top

[00:07:23] of mind program services center that employees have access to add an employee group.

[00:07:28] So a lot of employers were adding things.

[00:07:32] But ironically, this past, well, this fall and this upcoming one one renewals, we've seen

[00:07:41] a lot of heavy increases, which have cost or has caused some of our employer groups to

[00:07:46] take a step back a little bit.

[00:07:48] Yeah.

[00:07:49] And so for, it's funny for me for a while there, we were like, let's go, let's go, let's

[00:07:54] get more, add more, et cetera.

[00:07:56] And now there's been a little bit of a pause.

[00:07:58] But I actually see the trend going to enhancing benefits, enhancing programs available to employees, all in the name of trying to drive more employee engagement.

[00:08:09] I do see that advancing more as we move forward.

[00:08:13] But I don't know.

[00:08:15] You have to be good to your people to keep your people and people matter.

[00:08:20] That's right.

[00:08:21] And I think HR leaders know that.

[00:08:24] So maybe some of the struggle with that is what do different generations in the workforce value?

[00:08:30] Right.

[00:08:30] So my generation, of course, values your 401k and your retirement contributions, even when we were little.

[00:08:36] Yeah.

[00:08:37] Well, now younger workforces have different values and they want these choices and they want

[00:08:43] these things that apply to them better today.

[00:08:45] And so, so it's interesting.

[00:08:47] It's certainly having friends in the workplace and being able to get along with, I will speak for my youngest daughter right now.

[00:08:54] She just started a new job.

[00:08:56] And when I listen to her stories, one of the things that stands out to me is how she's getting connected.

[00:09:04] Yeah.

[00:09:04] With some of the other employees.

[00:09:06] And, you know, this employee reached out to me and we're doing, you know, going out for a drink afterwards with this employee.

[00:09:12] And I think that interconnectedness and they want to feel part of something is very crucial.

[00:09:19] And so, yeah, employers that are aware of that, conscious of that, and providing opportunities for that to happen, I think those are attractive places to be.

[00:09:29] Yeah.

[00:09:30] Even if people work remotely, providing those experiences is important.

[00:09:36] Yeah.

[00:09:36] So, they can connect.

[00:09:38] Yeah.

[00:09:38] And that's a whole other level, right?

[00:09:40] Yeah.

[00:09:40] Like, how do you do that?

[00:09:41] There are generations that don't want to do that, frankly.

[00:09:43] They're not interested in figuring out how to be social, you know, virtually.

[00:09:48] Yeah.

[00:09:49] Versus the other, and, you know, different generations also value time at home with their kids or their, you know, family different than younger generations who want to be professionally connected, right?

[00:10:00] Yeah.

[00:10:00] Right.

[00:10:00] What a whirlwind of stuff to balance in the marketplace.

[00:10:03] Yeah.

[00:10:04] There's a lot.

[00:10:05] Given remote work, it's amazing to me how, you know, something like Teams or whatever, how much more familiar that generation is.

[00:10:16] Oh, yeah.

[00:10:16] That it's secondhand to them where they're more quick to jump on a Teams file or quick to, like, and I am usually thinking in my mindset that you've got to plan it and schedule it.

[00:10:29] Mm-hmm .

[00:10:30] And for them, I feel like it's more spontaneous and more, but I think that makes them more efficient in some ways.

[00:10:39] And they're go-getters.

[00:10:40] They, like, get things done, so.

[00:10:41] Yeah, and I think all generations can, like, learn from each other.

[00:10:45] Yeah.

[00:10:46] Yeah.

[00:10:46] For sure.

[00:10:47] I think, certainly, I get teased at this in our office.

[00:10:52] I'm not.

[00:10:52] He gets teased a lot.

[00:10:54] I'm not the biggest IT guy, so, you know, for them to show me how to do things more efficiently and stuff like that, I appreciate it.

[00:11:01] Yeah.

[00:11:01] I love it.

[00:11:03] It's helpful.

[00:11:04] So, I don't know.

[00:11:05] We're rambling, but I don't know if it's helpful.

[00:11:06] No, that's all right.

[00:11:07] You know, I mean, it's just about having conversations and what's happening and what people are making noise about in HR.

[00:11:13] I thought, you know, our keynote speaker for this event was Jim Link, and his write-up just, you know, made me think right from the start, and it actually really fit quite well with some of the things we were talking about with HR technology and AI.

[00:11:26] But his write-up started with how you adapt will dictate the future of your success, and that you have to explore AI in your toolkit to get the full potential value of HR, and that's frightening for many of us.

[00:11:40] Yeah.

[00:11:40] Right?

[00:11:41] Why?

[00:11:42] Why do I have that?

[00:11:43] I know.

[00:11:43] Yeah.

[00:11:44] I don't know.

[00:11:45] Are there ways, other than, you know, the big COVID ways, the teams and the workplace and the more video conferences, are there other ways or things or tools that have been interjected into, you know, your workplace that just make you think, oh, that's it, and it's not so frightening.

[00:12:00] It's almost Halloween since that's as good.

[00:12:02] I just think you have to adapt.

[00:12:05] And, like, I always have felt that being able to adapt is a great quality to have because life changes, and the workforce changes, and you just have to have an open attitude about it.

[00:12:19] You know?

[00:12:20] Lots of, lots of, lots of conversations about resilience.

[00:12:24] Yeah.

[00:12:24] And topics on resilience, right?

[00:12:25] Yeah.

[00:12:25] And being able to bounce back and move forward.

[00:12:27] Yeah.

[00:12:28] As being a key item.

[00:12:29] Awesome.

[00:12:30] Okay.

[00:12:31] Well, let's take a break.

[00:12:32] Okay.

[00:12:32] Thank you guys for just sharing your perspective on the conference and look forward to, uh, to other ones with you in the future since we're state mates.

[00:12:39] Yeah.

[00:12:39] Well, thank you, Julie.

[00:12:45] Hey everybody.

[00:12:46] I'm Lori Rudiman.

[00:12:47] What are you doing?

[00:12:48] Working?

[00:12:49] Nah.

[00:12:49] You're listening to a podcast about work and that barely counts.

[00:12:53] So while you're at it, check out my show, Punk Rock HR, now on the Work Defined Network.

[00:12:59] We chat with smart people about work, power, politics, and money.

[00:13:03] Are we succeeding?

[00:13:04] Are we fixing work?

[00:13:05] Eh, probably not.

[00:13:06] Work still sucks.

[00:13:07] But tune in for some fun, a little nonsense, and a fresh take on how to fix work once and

[00:13:13] for all.

[00:13:13] While we're here, I'd love to know a little bit about what you're hearing people talk about

[00:13:17] and, uh, and where you think, you know, some of the conversations are going and what's

[00:13:22] most interesting to HR practitioners today.

[00:13:25] Yeah.

[00:13:25] I think your session on AI was very timely.

[00:13:28] Um, I love the parts where you calmed them down a little bit by saying with the statistics

[00:13:34] on that, you know, half of people aren't doing much right now.

[00:13:37] And so you're not that far behind.

[00:13:39] You don't have to be worried.

[00:13:39] I think I looked around the room and saw some relieved faces.

[00:13:43] Um, but really in our space, uh, majority of the conversations right now, whether we have

[00:13:48] a ton of manufacturing, we have a ton of, um, not in the really large space out of our

[00:13:54] Detroit office, more in that 50 to 500.

[00:13:57] Um, there's been a heavy focus on employee engagement.

[00:14:01] Uh huh.

[00:14:01] And so we've been trying to help them find strategies to, um, get employees in a better

[00:14:08] place, not only to be smarter consumers of healthcare, but also to appreciate the, the,

[00:14:13] the huge spend that the employers are making on their behalf.

[00:14:16] Oh yeah.

[00:14:17] Right.

[00:14:17] That's still not super well known.

[00:14:19] I mean, not everybody has gotten the total reward statement.

[00:14:22] Exactly.

[00:14:22] I understand the cost.

[00:14:23] And it happens to be weren't prime open enrollment time.

[00:14:26] Yeah.

[00:14:27] It's probably the worst time of the year for a lot of us to be cutting out and kicking

[00:14:31] it at a conference.

[00:14:32] It is.

[00:14:33] It is.

[00:14:33] It's an important time.

[00:14:34] I think it's a nice relief for the HR folks, even though that they are, a lot of them are

[00:14:38] one, one renewals in the, in the middle.

[00:14:41] I think they come here as a, to get a little break, have a little fun, become educated on

[00:14:46] things.

[00:14:47] But yeah, it's a big topic right now.

[00:14:49] It's something we've worked on really over the summer and talking with our clients,

[00:14:52] like how are we going to engage them differently going into this, uh, upcoming open enrollment

[00:14:56] season.

[00:14:57] Yeah.

[00:14:57] So talk a little bit like me about what some of those key strategies are, or, you know,

[00:15:02] let's maybe take a couple of them and break them down a little bit.

[00:15:04] Cause everybody wants to know what can I do to get this better engagement?

[00:15:08] It's a great time to engage my employees.

[00:15:10] And we do spend a lot on benefits as employers.

[00:15:12] So, uh, what, what are some of your top tips, tips and tricks and things that you think

[00:15:16] people are interested in?

[00:15:18] Yeah.

[00:15:18] So, I mean, the biggest thing we are a reseller of several, um, HRI systems, so employee navigator,

[00:15:26] B-swift and those things and getting them to interact in a better way.

[00:15:30] That's the first step.

[00:15:31] That's the low hanging fruit is you already paid for the system.

[00:15:34] You already have it in place, but people aren't utilizing it.

[00:15:37] You're doing either passive enrollments and instead of active enrollments, we're not capturing

[00:15:41] their attention during the open enrollment piece.

[00:15:43] So that's usually a start is changing the way we use our current technology.

[00:15:48] Right.

[00:15:48] And let's, let's figure out a new strategy of how we engage with our folks and, um, what

[00:15:53] we choose to put on there.

[00:15:54] Um, how we, uh, do pre-education before open enrollment besides the email that says it starts

[00:16:01] Monday, but what do we do the month before and the month before and the month before to

[00:16:05] have them, uh, more interested in then product offerings and different things to, uh, start

[00:16:11] suiting like what their needs are having a, uh, a well, like a large portfolio benefit

[00:16:16] option.

[00:16:17] Knowing that your most populations have people that are a couple of years away from

[00:16:23] retirement and a couple of years out of school.

[00:16:25] And how do you reach those two different people?

[00:16:27] And how do you make sure that your strategy is aligned with having options where they all

[00:16:32] feel, um, equally heard inside the organization?

[00:16:36] Right.

[00:16:36] Right.

[00:16:37] And the choices, you know, we got into a little bit of that just earlier with, uh, with

[00:16:41] Amy and Kevin, um, just the multi-generations and trying to appeal to all of them and how

[00:16:46] they have such different needs.

[00:16:48] So are employers, do you see employers broadening their elections?

[00:16:52] Like what sorts of tricks are they using?

[00:16:55] And do you see that continuing or do you see a little bit of a pullback and heightening

[00:16:59] of the belt?

[00:17:00] I see, um, I mean, I see that it's not going away.

[00:17:03] The work population is like the demographics are changing for sure.

[00:17:07] And so it's either you get prepared for that and adapt to that, or you're going to be in

[00:17:11] some trouble just from now if you don't know how to, um, engage with the population, a

[00:17:16] new wave of people coming into the workforce.

[00:17:18] I think most of them are, most of the employees we work with are on board with that concept and

[00:17:25] they are trying to develop strategies, whether it is, you know, technology for some to utilize

[00:17:30] or other options that may be more manual for others, um, without burdening the HR team.

[00:17:35] You know, trying to, trying to make sure that they have a suite of, I'm seeing more and

[00:17:38] more, you know, employee surveys, engagement surveys and things going out post open enrollment

[00:17:43] to talk about their experience.

[00:17:45] So then we can develop a...

[00:17:46] That's a little dangerous.

[00:17:46] Yeah, it is.

[00:17:47] But the negative feedback is valuable too.

[00:17:50] Like inside organization, if you have the opportunity to retain an employee by a, by a negative feedback

[00:17:57] that you take and then you implement a strategy to turn that into a different, uh, feeling

[00:18:01] from that person that might keep you from having to hire for that position, you know, six months

[00:18:06] from now because you, you, um, listen and then you implement different things.

[00:18:11] So it really will, it derives from that, that post OE experience and then creating the strategy

[00:18:16] going forward, whether it be, um, you know, using that technology, um, doing a lot of

[00:18:21] like, uh, using our vendor partners, um, Winston Benefits is, you know, inside of our organization.

[00:18:28] And they do a great, great job with their call centers, their, um, one-on-one enrollers,

[00:18:33] like all these ways to make sure you're communicating the benefits effectively, but giving everybody

[00:18:40] a form of access that makes them feel, um, that they can understand the products and be a good part of the solution.

[00:18:49] Yeah.

[00:18:50] And people still feel like they really don't always understand their choices.

[00:18:53] Um, it's pretty complex.

[00:18:54] It's the one time a year that all three of my 20 somethings call me.

[00:18:59] Can you look at this?

[00:19:00] What should I choose?

[00:19:02] Am I in the right thing still?

[00:19:04] I don't really know.

[00:19:05] So, you know, I think you earlier told me too, that you're seeing some strategies where folks

[00:19:09] are bringing back some of those onsite meetings or counselors or, you know, folks.

[00:19:14] And, and it's great if you're a lot of companies use passive enrollment, right?

[00:19:18] But, but the active enrollment actually puts that spend and that investment in the employee

[00:19:24] back to the forefront.

[00:19:26] Yeah.

[00:19:26] And see that.

[00:19:27] Do you see a lot with total reward statements?

[00:19:29] I see people, you know, also companies thinking about how do I explain the value?

[00:19:34] Yeah.

[00:19:35] We've been trying, um, there's some employers and it depends on the culture privately owned

[00:19:40] or whatever, um, organization and what their history and what they, uh, I guess, want to

[00:19:45] stand for.

[00:19:45] Some want to just do that and not put it in the employees phase.

[00:19:48] Other ones, uh, would like to put that number in front of them.

[00:19:52] So usually inside of our admin systems that we have, we'll, we can print out a total, you

[00:19:59] know, statement of, and, um, historically, a lot of those have only included employees

[00:20:04] contributions.

[00:20:05] Yeah.

[00:20:05] Now we're seeing more people add the column, the total cost.

[00:20:08] That's right.

[00:20:09] So that they can see that and wow.

[00:20:11] They, and so that is one of the main areas that people are appreciating and using those

[00:20:15] counselors to do that one-on-one time with folks.

[00:20:17] And then the other strategy I've been using quite a bit and, um, our teammates is insurance

[00:20:23] committees.

[00:20:24] Crazy enough.

[00:20:24] It's such a complex world and majority of consumers don't understand how insurance works.

[00:20:30] And so education starting inside the, um, organization where you pick some key people

[00:20:37] outside of the C-suite or outside of the, you know, HR folks.

[00:20:41] And you say, we just want to help you bring an outside party like ourselves.

[00:20:44] We just want to help you understand insurance so that you can keep making it.

[00:20:47] You can keep making decisions together year over year.

[00:20:49] You can feel good about the decisions you make.

[00:20:52] You can, we can get feedback on the options that your population wants.

[00:20:55] You know, we don't always know that.

[00:20:57] Not everybody fills out the survey.

[00:20:59] Not everybody wants to participate, but those insurance committees have allowed us to,

[00:21:02] them to understand insurance at a deeper level.

[00:21:05] And then as they're talking in the break room or they're talking on the floor or they're

[00:21:09] talking at the hospital, they are starting to ask questions.

[00:21:12] And then that feedback comes back to us.

[00:21:14] And we use that as well to develop the program to make sure everybody feels good about it.

[00:21:19] Awesome.

[00:21:19] Well, it's right before Halloween and anything to do with the insurance world is so spooky.

[00:21:26] And it's crazy because many people might not know, but I got my start working for MetLife.

[00:21:31] Believe it or not, it had nothing to do with insurance, but we were building these shared service centers.

[00:21:35] Yeah.

[00:21:36] And so, so I was part of that world and not at all part of it.

[00:21:39] And here I am again in the same situation.

[00:21:41] And I got to say, I just admire what you guys do.

[00:21:44] You're an amazing resource.

[00:21:46] And I can't explain at all how that model works, but I do know that many folks do rely

[00:21:50] on, on their broker communities to help educate them in this space and help make sure that

[00:21:56] they're thinking about the complexities and tying it out to the culture conversations

[00:22:01] that we had with Amy and, and Kevin and, and to the technology that you and I are talking about.

[00:22:07] And so, so thank you guys for everything that you do.

[00:22:09] And it's exciting that you and so many others are here live at the Michigan SHRM.

[00:22:14] Yeah, no, thank you.

[00:22:15] Any last thoughts on, on what's going on or what to say?

[00:22:18] Otherwise, like, thanks for letting me snatch you there.

[00:22:20] Yeah.

[00:22:21] Quite quarter and have a conversation.

[00:22:23] No, I think, really appreciate the time and everything you're doing.

[00:22:26] And I, I will say to your last point that 15 years ago when I started in this industry,

[00:22:33] we were just selling insurance.

[00:22:34] Yeah.

[00:22:35] And I sometimes, there's days I'm like, I just want to sell some insurance, you know,

[00:22:39] but our, our, our role, the broker role has become so much more complex to the, every piece

[00:22:44] of population health and claims and data and all these things.

[00:22:47] And so it's the selling insurance part is the easiest part of our, our jobs.

[00:22:52] Now it's all the, the, the compliance and the legislative things and blah, blah, blah.

[00:22:57] So it's.

[00:22:57] You know what you've just rattled off probably six blah, blah, blah things that we have not

[00:23:01] had topics.

[00:23:04] At some point in time, Pete and I have to go back through the list because we really

[00:23:07] focus a lot on payroll, a lot on HR, a little bit less on benefits.

[00:23:10] Yeah.

[00:23:10] Thanks for sharing some time here in crazy open enrollment at the wonderful Michigan SHRM.

[00:23:15] See that.

[00:23:15] Thank you.

[00:23:21] All right.

[00:23:21] Hello everyone.

[00:23:22] I'm here with a super special guest to me.

[00:23:25] Um, my son, Nico, um, Nico, why don't you introduce yourself and, uh, include your age?

[00:23:30] Cause I'm kind of, you're my voice of Gen Z zoomers and what you do for a living these

[00:23:34] days.

[00:23:35] Yeah.

[00:23:36] So thanks mom for having me on.

[00:23:37] I am an embedded software engineer, uh, at a small engineering services company out

[00:23:42] of Grand Rapids, Michigan.

[00:23:44] I'm 24.

[00:23:45] I've been at the company for a couple of years now, came straight out of, uh, college at

[00:23:50] Grand Valley State University.

[00:23:51] Uh, and yeah, I'm, uh, supposedly the voice of Gen Z here.

[00:23:55] So I'll try and do my best to represent.

[00:23:58] Yeah.

[00:23:58] I represent dude.

[00:24:00] Cause I got three of you and, and you're certainly aren't afraid to tell me what you

[00:24:06] think.

[00:24:06] So yeah, we're going to roll with that.

[00:24:08] Yeah.

[00:24:09] Awesome.

[00:24:10] Well, since you're in Grand Rapids, I was out there at this Michigan SHRM event recently,

[00:24:14] and we got a couple of nights dinner together, which was totally awesome.

[00:24:19] And I told you that, you know, I thought it'd be great if we talked a little bit about the

[00:24:22] stuff I was hearing at the conference.

[00:24:24] And at that time it was an, and it kind of still is a little bit for many companies,

[00:24:29] all hands on deck and you know, it's open enrollment time and everybody's picking their benefits

[00:24:34] or letting their benefits ride.

[00:24:36] And so I wanted to see if you would, you know, kind of share some observations on that

[00:24:42] season benefit season with us.

[00:24:44] And is that cool?

[00:24:45] Did you actually have an active enrollment where you had to re-enroll or sometimes it's

[00:24:50] passive and you just do nothing unless you want to make changes.

[00:24:53] It's so funny because our enrollment season actually is prepping for July is when we swap

[00:25:00] July 1st is when our insurance rolls over to the new insurance.

[00:25:03] And we had to do an active enrollment this year.

[00:25:07] So I've actually done two active enrollments, but active enrollment this year because we're

[00:25:11] doing some insurance shopping.

[00:25:13] Our company is like strapped for like kind of overhead costs.

[00:25:17] Like where could we save?

[00:25:18] So we switched from Blue Cross Blue Shield Michigan to a Cigna or Priority Health.

[00:25:23] And so we had to engage this time.

[00:25:27] Um, so I did another open enrollment.

[00:25:28] We use pay core as our, uh, service to do that.

[00:25:32] And it was pretty streamlined, super easy to pick between the plans, descriptions of all

[00:25:36] the plans without having to read the PDF.

[00:25:38] You could download it if you wanted to, but I thought it was very streamlined, but I am

[00:25:43] also probably more literate in the space than most people.

[00:25:48] I think I asked our director of HR more questions than anyone else who starts at the company fresh

[00:25:53] out of college.

[00:25:54] Yeah.

[00:25:55] Proud mama moment here.

[00:25:57] I know I've turned you into total geeks and even know what open enrollment or active

[00:26:02] and passive is, but yes.

[00:26:04] Do you remember when you were first comparing jobs and accepting jobs?

[00:26:10] And, and, you know, I joke, I've took maybe a time or two that that's when my kids, you

[00:26:14] know, like first realized, Oh crap, mom knows something, you know, like maybe I better, and

[00:26:19] like I have had very detailed benefits review sessions with each of you.

[00:26:23] But tell me what you remember about, you know, comparing job offerings and, you know, what

[00:26:28] was attractive about things?

[00:26:30] What were you thinking back in the, back in the day, way back, not that many years ago.

[00:26:34] Yes.

[00:26:35] Yeah.

[00:26:36] So when I did, I remember we, we had three offers on the table that we were kind of debating

[00:26:41] between out of college.

[00:26:43] And, um, there were some that were more attractive with base pay and, um, yearly like incentives

[00:26:50] or like a yearly bonus or a quarterly profit sharing bonus.

[00:26:54] So for the compensation structure, I was looking for better base salary with some kind of profit

[00:27:02] profit, profit sharing bonus.

[00:27:03] There was one company that offered equity in the ballpark of like 8% of your yearly salary.

[00:27:10] But I think one of the things I didn't like is that they use that as a bargaining chip, um, to lower

[00:27:16] base pay in general.

[00:27:18] So the, there were two that were like on par for their base pay.

[00:27:21] And then this other one that offered equity was a substantial amount, lower, probably

[00:27:28] like $7,000 lower annual salary.

[00:27:32] But the equity kind of like the math math and it was like supposedly better, but equity,

[00:27:38] it was a publicly traded company.

[00:27:39] So their stock, you know, fluctuated, went up and down.

[00:27:41] They had had pretty good years in there.

[00:27:43] And they also had a profit sharing on top of that.

[00:27:45] So I remember just looking at that, the compensation package and being like, okay, what matters then?

[00:27:50] Um, we were also looking at, uh, some of the softer benefits, the work that I'm at right

[00:27:55] now.

[00:27:56] I remember that I really liked their office location, their office space, the hybrid approach

[00:28:03] that they had.

[00:28:04] I mean, I am in the office pretty much five days a week.

[00:28:07] I just take the occasional day from home with my cars in the shop, or if for some reason

[00:28:12] it works out better in my personal life outside of work, but I wanted to have the option.

[00:28:17] There were some that it was five days a week, um, and kind of a little less wiggle room.

[00:28:22] And it's not like that was a bad thing for me because I like to be in the office, but it

[00:28:27] definitely is nice to have the flexibility.

[00:28:30] We also had, uh, like core hours, which is really interesting for me.

[00:28:34] So I really enjoyed this soft benefit that my current company has that I saw when we

[00:28:39] were kind of juggling the offers and the core hours is, is a concept of like, okay, if you

[00:28:45] have different projects that you're on and not everyone's on the same project, not everyone

[00:28:49] has to follow the same schedule.

[00:28:50] We have clients in different time zones and stuff like that.

[00:28:52] So, um, you just had to be online or in the office between the hours of 10 and three, 10

[00:28:56] a.m.

[00:28:57] to 3 p.m.

[00:28:58] Eastern and available.

[00:28:59] But outside of that, you could work 7 a.m.

[00:29:02] to three, you could work 10 a.m.

[00:29:04] to 6 p.m., like wherever your eight hours fell in and out, uh, side of those core hours

[00:29:09] is, uh, on you and you're able to do that.

[00:29:12] So I really liked having that flexibility, um, as well as, um, they have, uh, another soft benefit

[00:29:20] called flex Fridays, which I, uh, take full advantage of, which is working nine hour days

[00:29:25] instead of eight hour days.

[00:29:26] And if you work nine nines, so Monday through Friday, one week, Monday through Thursday,

[00:29:31] the next week, cause we're on biweekly pay schedule.

[00:29:34] Um, you get to take off every other Friday.

[00:29:36] So, uh, that's like 26 extra PTO days.

[00:29:40] So I take long weekends.

[00:29:41] I go back to the East side to visit, uh, you and dad.

[00:29:44] So like, it's very helpful for me to kind of take more advantage of, of, of, of, of,

[00:29:50] life outside of work to have that.

[00:29:51] So I remember there was that, this other company that, that was the third one that was in the

[00:29:56] running was a little bit, uh, north of Kalamazoo.

[00:29:59] And, uh, so I was like, oh, that's a huge commute.

[00:30:02] So commute kind of mattered because I wanted to be in the office.

[00:30:05] So, and I want to stay in Grand Rapids.

[00:30:08] I really liked the area and all the offers were kind of on the west side of Michigan.

[00:30:11] So yeah, those were some of the first initial considerations just with the on paper offers

[00:30:16] that I was kind of juggling between.

[00:30:18] Awesome.

[00:30:19] Awesome.

[00:30:19] And all of them had kind of similar like basic benefits and, um, you know, were there

[00:30:24] major differences from a benefits perspective?

[00:30:27] Yeah.

[00:30:28] Well, I guess at that time we didn't know that the company on that right now would become

[00:30:33] an ESOP.

[00:30:34] So that wasn't on the paper, but they did, uh, advertise that they had, um, an HSA plan

[00:30:41] that the company contributed, uh, like heavily to the, uh, yearly allowance to contribute to

[00:30:48] your HSA plan, the company I'm at right now.

[00:30:50] And then they were introducing software benefits like volunteer PTO, uh, the minimum tuition reimbursement

[00:30:58] of like whatever the, uh, IRS reimburses you for it's like around like $5,000 a year per

[00:31:04] person.

[00:31:04] So they were introducing some of those benefits right around when I was getting actually onboarded.

[00:31:10] So I didn't know about that on paper.

[00:31:12] So on paper, they did have mostly the same benefits.

[00:31:16] My work went with a safe harbor 3% instead of an employer match, which was cool.

[00:31:21] Cause I was doing, I was actually, my strategy was to invest in my Roth IRA while I'm in

[00:31:28] a lower tax bracket.

[00:31:30] So I was like, cool.

[00:31:31] Safe harbor 3% means I can prioritize my IRA as opposed to my traditional 401k.

[00:31:37] So that was cool for me.

[00:31:39] I appreciated that as opposed to like needing to, to contribute five, 6% to get their whatever,

[00:31:44] 3% on top three to 5% on top.

[00:31:46] So yeah, some of they had the basic stuff, but I mean, it was structured in a way that

[00:31:51] I think was beneficial to me and my life and the way I wanted to organize some of those

[00:31:55] financial benefits.

[00:31:57] Cool.

[00:31:57] Cool.

[00:31:57] So, Hey, most of your workforce at this place is pretty young.

[00:32:01] Is that a fair statement?

[00:32:02] Yeah.

[00:32:03] I'd say the ones that I interact with on a regular basis are probably the younger demographic

[00:32:08] within my work.

[00:32:09] Yes.

[00:32:10] Okay.

[00:32:10] All right.

[00:32:10] So I know, I know you have quite a bunch of, you know, younger engineers and what I'm

[00:32:15] dying to talk to you about today is just like, what's the coffee talk about, you know, these

[00:32:21] sorts of things with others in your age group.

[00:32:24] And, you know, do they think about these things?

[00:32:28] Are they knowledgeable about these things?

[00:32:30] Are there certain things that they're like, yeah, right on.

[00:32:33] Like, this is really important to me and other things, not so much.

[00:32:36] Like, what do you hear kind of in your demographic?

[00:32:39] Yeah.

[00:32:40] Since you're the voice of Gen Z today.

[00:32:42] Yeah.

[00:32:42] Yeah.

[00:32:43] I also, I feel like I want to preface this with maybe there's some bias because I do think

[00:32:48] that there's some attention to detail with just like, I guess the way engineers stereotypically

[00:32:55] are, they're very analytical.

[00:32:56] So a lot of my friends, my young colleagues are also engineers.

[00:33:00] They're very in the paperwork.

[00:33:02] They care a lot about their total compensation package, their total picture.

[00:33:06] I know since I've been at the company, I've had people like go to other companies in the

[00:33:12] area that I still maintain friendships with outside.

[00:33:14] So I can speak to kind of some of their reasons for jumping or what they cared about

[00:33:21] when they made their moves because that was a huge, you know, kind of comparative to

[00:33:25] like what they were getting at my current company versus what they wanted.

[00:33:30] So I had a friend that was, that went to Striker in Portage, which is around Kalamazoo in Michigan.

[00:33:37] And they're, they have really good mentorship programs, really good tuition reimbursement programs.

[00:33:42] My company had started the tuition reimbursement program, but had to drop it as like optional benefits that we had to like cut costs on.

[00:33:51] So they're looking to get higher education.

[00:33:55] That was important to them.

[00:33:57] Had some people go to a nearby company also.

[00:34:00] So, uh, Gen Tech's similar reason.

[00:34:02] They also do tuition reimbursement.

[00:34:04] Uh, they also had in office every day.

[00:34:08] Uh, so they, they had a stricter policy, less flexibility.

[00:34:11] I know that matters to some of my coworkers that have like more kids.

[00:34:15] Cause sometimes like kids get snow days and what do you do when that happens?

[00:34:19] Kids can't, uh, you know, don't want to pay for childcare or both parents are working or something like that.

[00:34:24] It's, it's very important to them.

[00:34:25] They're mostly in the office, but they want that ability to call the shots, you know, ad hoc.

[00:34:31] Whenever they have, uh, those problems arise or kid gets sick or something like that.

[00:34:35] See it all the time.

[00:34:36] Um, but for the younger people, they, they like hybrid.

[00:34:39] All of my engineering friends, because engineering, especially in the embedded space is very hands-on.

[00:34:45] Uh, they're all either hybrid or in office all the time.

[00:34:50] There is no kind of like fully remote space for specifically the field that I'm in.

[00:34:55] Okay.

[00:34:55] So a lot of them do enjoy a hybrid work schedule, especially those that have to commute.

[00:34:59] I have another buddy who went over to Traeger in Kalamazoo.

[00:35:04] Uh huh.

[00:35:04] And he also enjoys hybrid work schedule.

[00:35:06] So for those longer commutes, they're going to be looking for some type of hybrid schedule just so that they don't have to do that commute every day.

[00:35:13] Because if you can minimize a 45 minute commute from Grand Rapids to Kalamazoo down to, um, three days a week, uh, that's going to be a huge benefit to them.

[00:35:21] It makes it, it makes the option a lot more attractive for them to go.

[00:35:25] So, so it's not that they don't like going into the office, but if the commute because they've purchased houses in Grand Rapids, cause they used to work at my company, um, don't want to get up and move like the city or whatever.

[00:35:36] Uh, hybrid is going to be a huge kind of like attractive aspect of the, of the job description for them.

[00:35:44] Yeah.

[00:35:44] Makes sense.

[00:35:45] And then I've got a couple, I had a friend, actually my roommate, uh, he left my company as well.

[00:35:53] And, uh, he ended up at a fully remote job.

[00:35:56] Uh, the, I think the jobs out of Connecticut or something like that, but he's still in the embedded space.

[00:36:01] So they actually ship him all of the parts and all of the, uh, hardware that he ends up working on, but he likes it a lot because he has the flexibility to kind of be at home or be away.

[00:36:12] Like I know he's definitely worked, um, you know, out of Chicago or he takes a trip to North Carolina.

[00:36:18] He has some more flexibility to be around the country.

[00:36:21] Granted it's like Eastern standard time is when the company is operating out of.

[00:36:24] So it's like take into consideration some of that time zone stuff.

[00:36:29] But for the most part, it's really, it's really about that.

[00:36:32] There have been some people who have been trying to, to, to, I would say like snipe equity in a company.

[00:36:38] I had a buddy who went to a startup in San Francisco.

[00:36:41] I just got back from visiting him, but he, uh, is getting private equity in his company.

[00:36:46] And that's a huge attractive feature for him.

[00:36:49] Uh, he also gets his, uh, Cali salary, which is better, but he has a house in Michigan.

[00:36:55] That he can, uh, you know, use to offset some of his housing costs.

[00:37:00] So it's really a good setup for him to make, uh, kind of that disparity between Michigan and California kind of worked his advantage, um, for him living out there.

[00:37:11] Uh, and then he gets his, his private equity and, and he's looking pretty good with the company that he's at right now.

[00:37:18] Um, doing some ocean sensor technology.

[00:37:21] So it, it really depends kind of which benefits people are looking towards, but I would say that, you know, some of that flexibility does matter a lot more at the, I guess, my friends, my circle of people.

[00:37:37] I think we're just doing a lot of activities.

[00:37:39] Want to travel.

[00:37:40] Maybe, you know, I want to shoot down and see my sister in Sarasota and just work that week remote and then take a flight back.

[00:37:47] That's convenient.

[00:37:48] So I get to spend more time with her.

[00:37:49] That's a huge attractive option for me.

[00:37:52] Um, and I think in the work that I'm doing right now with the project that I'm on currently, that's available to me to do something a little more remote, a little more away from the office.

[00:38:01] So it's not always available, but when it is, it's nice to take advantage of that.

[00:38:06] Yeah.

[00:38:06] That's fun to hear.

[00:38:07] You know, I know you might not even remember, but before you guys were out searching for your first jobs, I, you've seen me work remote, fully remote and then travel wherever you need to travel your whole lives.

[00:38:17] And I distinctly recall asking each of you what you think about remote work and, and my daughter, your sister was like, yeah, I need to be with people.

[00:38:26] I couldn't sit in a room and do this forever.

[00:38:28] And you, you were always so wonderfully honest.

[00:38:31] You're like, I don't think I'm going to do any work.

[00:38:34] I don't.

[00:38:37] Yeah.

[00:38:39] And I don't even remember what the youngest said, because I think he was just not at the point where he realized he was going to have to work someday.

[00:38:47] So there's no response there at all.

[00:38:50] Yeah.

[00:38:51] Cool.

[00:38:51] Hey, so, so I see here and see an awful lot of companies that are really trying to do some innovative things, especially in the, you know, to make work really enjoyable to attract people.

[00:39:04] And in, in truth, since last year, I think people were, you know, companies were piling new, new innovative things on and maybe they're starting to pull those back now, whether it's for reasons like, you know, we're small and we need to cost save or, or just, you know, not sure how much of an uptick we're getting out of this.

[00:39:21] Let me, let me, let me rattle off a couple and let me know if any of these you're hearing talk of, or, you know, are creating kind of a stir in, in your circles.

[00:39:30] I hear, you know, lifestyle benefits where, you know, maybe there's like a pot of money that you can use to reimburse, you know, yoga classes or, you know, some education that might not be like, you know, your typical education reimbursement or something that's important to you.

[00:39:48] Or, you know, voluntary stuff like pet insurance for people that are all pet, you know, crazy and, and that's a value to them or paying off school loans, right? You're in that age group.

[00:39:59] Absolutely. So, uh, I think that the, I don't know that they've called it lifestyle benefits, but like, uh, fitness kind of benefits or, or some kind of stipend for gym workout programs, Pilates, that kind of thing is attractive to people at, at my age.

[00:40:16] I know I belong to a fitness center club that's local to Grand Rapids and it's, it's pretty expensive.

[00:40:23] Uh, but I like to have indoor courts. I like to play basketball and various sports games oriented. So I want that. And I know if my work offered that it would be a huge plus to me.

[00:40:33] Um, they don't currently, but I know other people in the area that do get a stipend for, um, gym memberships or, you know, classes for things like that. And, and I do envy them in that sense quite a bit.

[00:40:47] Now I do have that friend that's in San Francisco has unlimited PTO and I mean, unlimited PTO is, I have seen it used as like a huge benefit to people who kind of are able to complete their tasks and are on top of their things because ultimately that's what they need you for.

[00:41:05] They need you to complete your tasks. And if you're not completing your tests, well, they need you to still finish those tests. And if work's not getting done, then it really is heavily discouraged to go.

[00:41:15] I think unlimited PTO is, is good and bad, right? My, my buddy said that his manager says, Hey, you know, like it is technically unlimited PTO, but kind of watch it if you're going over 20 days.

[00:41:26] So, so there is a thing. So if you're, if you're like super high on the seniority chain and you, and you've got whatever, five weeks PTO or something like that, going to an unlimited PTO company, it might not be as good.

[00:41:40] Cause, cause you're used to like, you know, two whole months that you can kind of distribute across the year and, and, and they're not okay with that.

[00:41:48] Or they might be expecting something less. Like there is kind of some hidden expectations and you just have to kind of sniff it out by talking to your managers.

[00:41:57] So it's a little more convoluted in that sense. I know some people that like assigned PTO because it's like, they take it and they don't get bugged on it and they're allowed to do it.

[00:42:07] They feel like they give it to themselves. Yeah. You've earned it. You've accrued it and it makes sense.

[00:42:12] Um, whereas unlimited PTO, it's a little more like pretty pleased with a cherry on top. Can I go a week to the Swiss Alps and go ski with my friends?

[00:42:23] Yes. And it's just, and people will be like, it's a little more discretionary where they're like, uh, actually we don't think that that's, you know, appropriate given our project deadlines and how much we need you and, uh, whatever.

[00:42:35] It just seems a little more subjective. So I I've heard it both ways, but then I know some people who take advantage, take full advantage of it and, you know, some more, more PTO than, than, than I'm allotted.

[00:42:47] Currently we, we have fixed PTO and I'll earn it after, you know, X amount of years. I'll, I'll get a little bump for sure.

[00:42:54] But right now it's like unlimited PTO that I would definitely have more days off than I'm currently allotted.

[00:42:59] So I, I use things like flex Fridays and stuff like that to kind of leverage how much time I get away from work. So it's, it's good though. Um, yeah, yeah.

[00:43:07] I think that they are definitely talking about some of those things.

[00:43:11] I want to take a break real quick just to let you know about a new show. We've just added to the network up next at work hosted by Jean and Kate Akil of the Devin group.

[00:43:23] Fantastic show. If you're looking for something that pushes the norm, pushes the boundaries, has some really spirited conversations, Google up next at work, Jean and Kate Akil from the Devin group.

[00:43:39] Awesome. Awesome. Well, I wanted to talk a little bit too about the culture of the workplace. So I know you're in a hands-on place. You happen to have a lot of young folks that are there as well. And so that gives some social, you know, some social bump benefits. Right.

[00:43:53] And, uh, and we both know you had a friend who went in a different path entirely and got herself a very good position in a large company. So, you know, definitely solid base pay, you know, maybe even above what you would think you would get as an entry level position and found herself in a work environment that, um, that was, that didn't have a lot of folks of the same generation.

[00:44:19] And some of that. So where do you see, you know, where do you see people falling on that spectrum of, you know, we're general, we're workplaces with five generations of folks. It's maybe not, you know, normal to end up with all of one or all of the other, but, um, how, what kind of, what kind of scuttlebutt is there about that in amongst your, your gen Z's?

[00:44:41] Yeah. I know there were, I cultivated a little bit of jealousy from my peer circle because when I first started at my current company, I started our rec league and, uh, we would do things together. Like all the young, uh, employees would do things like dodgeball, kickball, volleyball. We'd go grab drinks after or before, like have a little bit of social time. If the games were later and we were all carpooling from the office or something like that, had a lot more, uh, camaraderie. I still hang out with those people. They, they're,

[00:45:11] there's a few that are not at the company anymore. And I'm still very close with them because we were able to develop actual like friendships that transcended just the workplace. And I know that I have friends that don't, we're not able to, um, I had a friend that went out to Pennsylvania to work on, uh, satellite technology for engineering and wasn't able to have the same kind of connections. Didn't find that same camaraderie in the workplace. So what do you have to do? You have to go do stuff outside of work, but it's a new place. It's a new location.

[00:45:41] It's kind of hard to get connected and workplace sometimes can be like an anchor for people that are moving out for work specifically to meet people and then get connected into their social circles. Um, I know my, my friend that just went out to San Francisco and I just visited him. There's a few circles that he has that is by virtue of his work. So having the younger generation to help get you plugged in to activities that you're interested in.

[00:46:06] I remember recruiting for the rec league and every coworker that I was very friendly with had really good rapport with in the office that had kids immediately said, sorry, no, like if it comes to doing a rec league with, uh, coworkers that I get to see every day, I'm going to pick hanging out with my kids every time. And I'm, and I can't even blame them. I can't even be like, Oh, come on. I would love to see you play volleyball. It's like, no, go be with your kids. Like that makes a hundred percent sense.

[00:46:31] Uh, so it's definitely, you need to rally the, the young people before they get in those situations where they have, you know, kids and families to think about. And they really care about spending more time away from the people at work. Not that there's anything wrong with their coworkers. It's just, you know, it's harder.

[00:46:52] Yeah. Priorities at different stages in life, right? I had the good fortune when I started my career at MetLife, there were several of us. So the same age group and very, um, very active. And we did tons of social things together. So I had a similar experience at the beginning of my career. And now that I'm in a different place, you know, it, it doesn't sound so fun.

[00:47:14] Yeah. So you can, you know, you just different times of your life, right? Totally. Um, so awesome. Let's see. What didn't I ask you about yet? I didn't want to end this call without asking or talking a little bit about the topic of retirement savings. Cause you mentioned that a little bit earlier on and, you know, kind of your strategy. And it's important to you to put some things away, you know, for, for a rainy day and for later in life.

[00:47:38] And I'm pretty sure you told me, I don't think everybody values this the same, you know? So if it goes away or gets reduced in hard times, you know, like that didn't matter as much to, you know, everyone as maybe it matters to you. Did I catch that? Right. Like, how did that all play out?

[00:47:57] Absolutely. Yeah. So, um, my company has been, you know, under some fluctuation, they had to cut a lot of overhead costs. A lot of those softer benefits went away and some of those elective benefits, um,

[00:48:08] like contributions to retirement accounts, um, has been minimized, reduced, or, uh, just kind of completely, uh, set to discretionary distributions, you know, um, at the discretion of my employer. So I, you know, probably felt that a lot harder than a lot of the younger people, um, at my company, because I just understand the time in the market is everything.

[00:48:35] And so, you know, even if my salary is less, so technically a percentage cut of that in compensation in your retirement account is going to be, uh, numerically less.

[00:48:44] The fact that I have 30 years left in the workforce and for that to grow, um, meant that personally for me, I took it up out of my own salary. So when they cut those benefits, I cut my salary and I, uh, like made up for, uh, what they weren't contributing to those accounts anymore.

[00:49:04] So I, uh, I, uh, picked up to max out my HSA and, and picked up on my 401k contributions, uh, just to kind of level out the playing field there and trying to max out my Roth.

[00:49:17] I, I, I, it's hard. I'm in a fortunate position to be a young engineer living, literally renting a single bedroom in a friend's duplex, half of his duplex.

[00:49:30] So like I'm positioned very well for saving and investing strategy. I know not a lot of people might have the same experience just with their salary.

[00:49:39] Can't put away as much, can't afford to take that much out of their, out of their pay to like enhance their retirement, uh, benefits.

[00:49:47] But so I know if I was looking at that and I was like, Oh my gosh, I don't have the money to be putting away those benefits.

[00:49:54] I really need my work to pick that up. And if a work had a really, uh, competitive, like contributions to my retirement, that would matter to me as a young person.

[00:50:03] Why? Because it, if you know, the, the savvy of like, you know, exponential growth and, and, and rates, when you have time in the market, you would understand right now, if you put in a lot, uh, you're going to have just that much more.

[00:50:17] Um, and, and every 10 years, right. Like matters significantly. So if you wait till you're 30 to care about those retirement benefits, it's going to be huge detriment to you.

[00:50:25] So I think I was a lot more passionate, uh, than a lot of the people I was very, um, I've been talking to my, uh, HR, uh, director a lot.

[00:50:37] And it's interesting because, um, just speaking plainly, like we're, we had our, our, our compensation, uh, frozen and, and we're kind of saving cost saving, cost saving.

[00:50:48] Um, and it's interesting because as our benefits were cut back, um, the first thing to come back is, is compensation and hopefully, uh, compensating people for kind of like the time that they, they, they had been holding down the fort.

[00:51:02] That's right.

[00:51:03] And then I was kind of like, well, benefits, like why, why is that kind of not roped into bringing back compensation?

[00:51:09] And, and the director was kind of like, well, with compensation, it's, it's like discretionary, right?

[00:51:14] So like, if you need the money in your wallet, you can use it in your wallet.

[00:51:18] If you need that money and then you direct deposit to your retirement accounts or up your, uh, uh, retirement contribution to your 401k, like you kind of get to decide if we, if we kind of bring back your base pay and raise your salary, as opposed to like bringing back things that can only be used for that benefit.

[00:51:34] Like HSA contributions, 401k contributions.

[00:51:36] Um, so it was interesting to me to kind of see it from that lens of like, okay, we're going to bring back salary hikes because then people can kind of decide what they want to do with it.

[00:51:48] And so that don't make total sense to me.

[00:51:50] Um, and I do know that they, they, they have a high priority for, um, you know, bringing, bringing benefits back for, for everyone, those closer to retirement.

[00:52:00] And also for, uh, younger people like me who are kind of advocating for it from a, uh, uh, trying to have an investment heavy, uh, financial strategy.

[00:52:11] So it's been interesting.

[00:52:12] I feel like I've kind of gained some camaraderie with like some of the older people at my company because we kind of are concerned about the same things, but for different reasons.

[00:52:20] And it's like really this interestingly enough unifying thing.

[00:52:25] I've seen people who have kids that are super concerned about their, um, retirement as well as like their FSAs and things like that, because they don't have the money out of their paychecks because they're using it for their childcare, for their kids, um, putting them through school or whatever.

[00:52:42] And then the, really they're relying on work to help them with retirement.

[00:52:46] And we used to have things like pensions, right.

[00:52:48] And, and, and it's, you don't see that kind of stuff anymore.

[00:52:51] So like having 401k as a substitute to that, um, really means that there's some kind of dependency on contributions from your employer.

[00:53:00] Like some people heavily rely on that.

[00:53:02] So I know my brother, uh, who's at Ford.

[00:53:05] He, he definitely has a really good 401k contribution policy that, uh, does have me jealous a lot of times, but I understand why.

[00:53:14] He works at a super large company that's able to give really good benefits in exchange for being, you know, under a lot of administrative burden and you can't move as agile through his job.

[00:53:25] He's, he's a finance guy and I'm an engineer.

[00:53:27] And I know I've worked with clients that have big companies and it's, it's, it's harder to get things through.

[00:53:32] There's a lot of process.

[00:53:33] I hear I can talk to the people cause I know them and it's a lot more interpersonal, conversational, uh, get things done a lot faster.

[00:53:40] So I don't know.

[00:53:41] It's, it just kind of depends, right?

[00:53:44] Yeah.

[00:53:44] Well, those things out.

[00:53:45] It's a, it's a great look or a great insight into the fact that, you know, you're even this soon in your career between yourself, your siblings and your broader network of friends.

[00:53:55] And then coworkers who are outside of your own age group, you really get a great exposure to, you know, the trade-offs and the values and different cultural impacts and how that personally affects you or affects somebody else.

[00:54:09] And, and the same for every aspect of your value, your employment value.

[00:54:13] Right.

[00:54:13] Um, which is, you know, kind of the whole point is really what people in the HR departments are talking about when open enrollment time comes around.

[00:54:22] And, and, uh, I hope that will be surprised that, you know, that, that all ages and all generations in their workforce probably think about this as much as, you know, anyone else that it affects the younger Gen Zs and soon enough, the alphas.

[00:54:38] Right.

[00:54:39] As much as it affects those of us that have been here for a while.

[00:54:43] Yeah.

[00:54:43] Yeah.

[00:54:43] And, you know, I feel like I, I want to add a little ditty about, um, HSAs because I think I've found myself like, you know, I, I, I definitely do have a habit of like looking on LinkedIn, looking at posts, looking at jobs, kind of what's available, what's the going rate for, uh, me as an engineer in the market that I'm in.

[00:55:03] So in Grand Rapids or, or remote, uh, jobs that are available.

[00:55:06] And one thing that I found myself like really loving was like my HSA, but it's because I understand like the tax implications of it.

[00:55:13] Thank you, mom.

[00:55:14] Um, and, and, and, and you realize like, oh, in order to be eligible to contribute, like you need a high deductible PPO plan.

[00:55:22] And so finding companies that it's like, oh my gosh, we have great health insurance here.

[00:55:25] And it's like, well, but does that mean I sacrificed my HSA?

[00:55:28] And now it's just like this golden goose egg that I really don't, can't touch anymore.

[00:55:32] And that, that kind of sucks.

[00:55:33] So I found myself kind of considering that, uh, as I see kind of like imagine like, oh, you know, like maybe I could see myself working here or working there or, or changing kind of like the, the, what I am working on as an engineer.

[00:55:48] Um, and, and I found that to be like, it takes up a disproportionately sized piece of the pie when I'm considering like what, what I want to do.

[00:55:57] And it's, it's just funny.

[00:55:59] It's just funny.

[00:56:00] Um, to think about that.

[00:56:02] No, no, I didn't expect it.

[00:56:03] But I mean, it's working out great for me.

[00:56:07] And I think it's, it's a huge benefit that I've come to enjoy, especially while you're healthier.

[00:56:11] So like, you know, you want, you might care a lot about lower deductibles as you have more health complications, more, more bills.

[00:56:19] But like, while I'm young and I'm healthy and I'm not really paying that much for doctors visits, just, just proactive yearly checkups, things that are covered.

[00:56:27] And I have low co-pays on, I am using, uh, the heck out of, out of a benefit like an HSA.

[00:56:35] So maybe something to consider for, for Gen Z people is that they tend to be healthier.

[00:56:41] They care more about fitness stipends and probably something more akin to like HSA.

[00:56:46] If they're, um, want to use tax investing, like tax, tax haven investing as part of their financial strategy, that, that, that might matter.

[00:56:54] So, um, it matters to me when I crunch the numbers for sure.

[00:56:57] So I, I, I would think that there might be like minded Gen Z individuals out there.

[00:57:03] I hope they are because it's awesome.

[00:57:05] Because otherwise you're an odd duck kid.

[00:57:08] Yeah.

[00:57:08] Yeah.

[00:57:09] You might, you might have, you might have created something that's a little strange for like, I don't know.

[00:57:15] You can't really call it an old soul.

[00:57:17] Maybe just has that, that mindset going right into the workforce.

[00:57:21] So I don't, yeah, it's like the things that, that I've surprised my director of HR with just by asking about or caring about disproportionately to the rest of my younger coworkers.

[00:57:30] It's been funny.

[00:57:31] It's been a fun experience for sure.

[00:57:33] We have a lot of impromptu one-on-ones that she is not expecting most of the time.

[00:57:38] That's awesome.

[00:57:39] Hey, just wait.

[00:57:40] She'll be coming in and knocking on your door saying, I have this idea and I need to bounce it off somebody who overthinks that kind of this stuff.

[00:57:48] Yeah.

[00:57:49] I would die to you, Nico.

[00:57:51] Awesome.

[00:57:52] Cool.

[00:57:52] Well, thank you so much for making the time and being open and transparent.

[00:57:56] That's your nature.

[00:57:58] I wouldn't expect anything less.

[00:57:59] And I've had so much fun having these conversations and watch you guys all, you know, get into the stuff and recognize it's part of life, adult life.

[00:58:08] And so thanks for sharing it and for being my voice of Gen Z again.

[00:58:12] Yeah.

[00:58:12] No problem.

[00:58:13] Anytime, anytime.

[00:58:15] I'm sure there'll be some topic that someone talks about that you think I might have some weird or unique perspective on again.

[00:58:22] So I'm sure it won't be the last time, but happy to keep my ear to the ground and be talking to my friends.

[00:58:28] It's funny.

[00:58:29] A lot of them are coming to me now about advice on their benefits or their retirement investing or just like kind of what they want because of the literacy that I have at this young, early stage.

[00:58:43] And maybe because they're not comfortable kind of exposing the fact that they're vulnerable in that sense or haven't had that education yet.

[00:58:50] So it's been cool.

[00:58:51] It's like a light.

[00:58:51] You're a lighthouse for other like-minded young individuals in the workplace.

[00:58:57] Yeah.

[00:58:57] Trying to figure things out.

[00:58:58] Trying to figure things out.

[00:58:59] Exactly.

[00:59:00] So that's right.

[00:59:01] Awesome.

[00:59:02] Thanks a lot.

[00:59:03] I'm sure we'll do it again sometime.

[00:59:05] Sounds good.

[00:59:05] Thanks a lot.