Payroll Like a Boss with Special Guest John Bernatovicz & Tammy Gillenwater

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_02] Welcome everyone to another episode of the HR & Payroll 2.0 podcast. I'm Pete Tiliakos and as always, I'm joined by the legendary Julie Fernandez. Welcome Julie.

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_01] Thanks so much Pete. So much Pete. I know we have an exciting kind of a current events episode today, so why don't you tell us about it?

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, yeah. We got our good friends from Willowey. We've got John Bernatovich and we've got Tammy Gillenwater and they are here with the new Payroll Like a Boss book. And so I'm stoked for the sneak peek. I got a million questions. I've seen a little bit of it. And I'm excited to read it, but welcome guys. Great to have you.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_00] Very exciting to be here.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_03] What a delight. Congrats. Thank you Pete and Julie for what you're doing for the payroll industry and elevating the profession. I know Tammy and I are trying to ride in your coattails and I think what they call that drafting. You're driving that lead car and we're just trying to draft behind you to keep up with you. Maybe we'll pass you like in five or ten years. Who knows?

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_02] I hope you do, man. I hope you do. We were talking about this before we got started about how back ten years ago when I was and started being an analyst and I started sort of being an influencer, if you will. I don't consider myself that for payroll. It was just me. There wasn't anybody else out there doing anything about it. And it's nice to have help and have others out there.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_02] So I appreciate what you all are doing. I wish we had those sound effects, Julie. I don't remember how you do it where it's like that horn, you know, like

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_01] you know, like the flying in the coattails. I would have done duck noises, John.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Okay.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_02] Tammy, I'm so excited. I want you to talk about this book, but how do you feel that this is now? It's here, right? It's here. Do you believe it? Are you relieved? What are you feeling?

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_00] There's a lot of feelings. And I kind of go back and forth like one minute. I'm like, it's not real. And everything is usual. And then I'll read something or I'll see something like last night, John and I signed all those books. And then I came home and saw it on the Amazon listing and I was like, whoa, look at this. So, yeah. And it makes me a little emotional. And even like when I read certain parts of it, it is very emotional to me. So, yeah, roller coaster.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_02] A little bit of therapy writing. I'm writing a book myself and it is a little bit of therapy when you're doing that.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_01] You know, I saw the picture, Tammy, and I know your right arm is probably about ready to fall off, right? I mean, you were just in front of this mountain, this big mountain of books that you guys have gotten signed ready for the lunch here.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And the funny thing is we asked someone there. We were at one of the local wineries because I live in Ohio wine country. And we asked somebody to take the picture for us and she's retired from payroll. Oh, that's funny. Wow. I know. Isn't that weird?

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_02] John, man, I want to get your perspective, man. This is your second one. HR, this is basically part two, I guess, to HR Like a Boss, the sequel. What's it like going through it again, man? What did you do differently? What did you learn?

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_03] There's a few things. The most obvious one is the joy and pleasure to have partnered with Tammy to write the book. Tammy and I have been fast friends for probably 15 plus years and having been able to work together now at the firm and supporting our clients and just getting to know each other on a professional level. And then as a result, on a personal level, I feel super blessed to call her a friend and thankful for her wisdom and kindness.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_03] And although we were on a recent call preparing a webinar and she was really giving me a hard time in front of people that were like, why is she being that way to you, John? I'm like, that's how we are. Like little sibling rivalry. The first thing is obvious with Tammy. Tammy. I'd say the second time you kind of know what to expect the second time around, Pete and Julie. And I don't know whether that's good or bad. I don't know whether that's good or bad.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_03] There's a lot of comparison for the book that I wrote that got published by SHRM that had a lot of really cool parts of it and also had some things I would like to see done differently. We went with a hybrid publisher this time around because we wanted to take a little bit more advantage of the content we created, be a little bit more in control of it from a sense of that. And I wanted to get the experience, quite frankly, because there's three ways you can write a book. You can publish through a standard publisher, you can hybrid publish or you can self-publish. And we wanted to see what that was like. Again, similar thing.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_03] It was there were a lot of cool things about it. The publisher that we hired was really good in some ways. And in other places, it's like, gosh, in the back of my mind, it makes me want to start a publishing business, which makes me a complete weirdo. I know, like get off your lawn kind of entrepreneur guy. And then the last thing I would say, and I feel like I'm comparing kids, which is dangerous. I know. Can we really do this? Yeah. I'm going to suggest this. And you use the word influencer, thought leader.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_03] I've been blessed over the last few years to really get to know some fantastic people, including said company. But in the HR space, pairing that with the HR like a boss movement that came out of the book that I wrote in 23, there's a lot of competition. There's a lot of people out there advocating, selling, supporting work, talent, HR, benefits, fill in the blank. And I have not gotten out of payroll. I've been doing this for now 30 years in my entire career.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_03] But I would say this is the first time I've leaned into being someone that's creating content specifically for payroll and doing these presentations. And I will tell you right now, the support from the payroll community has been absolutely inspiring. I mean, it's the best, right? We didn't get support from HR. We have. But this feels a little bit more golden goose-ish. It feels a little bit more like this is really something that you're doing.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_03] The celebration amongst some people that might think your competition, like you, Pete and Julie and others that we've run into, Ian Giles and the folks that do all the other podcasting. They just want us on the show. They want us promoting. It's one big happy family. Yeah. And I would say that that's the biggest part because I will say in HR like a boss, as you may know, Pete and Julie, when you do something like that, you get a lot of people that give you some props.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_03] And maybe it's some undue respect, but at the same time, you get some people to try to knock you off that heightened pinnacle that you've reached. And I've not had that one second in payroll, not one second. I want people that are pushing me to go climb another mountain. Yeah. It's very on brand. So those three things really stand out to me from this being different than HR like a boss. Yeah.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_00] From my perspective, I wasn't surprised about all the support. Like I see it all the time. So yeah, it's an awesome community.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_02] I love it. And just for those scoring at home, John is the author of HR like a boss, which we had John on. If you haven't listened to that episode, I encourage you to go back and check it out. And John, we're going to make sure the links to that and the new book are in our description. But, you know, I'm really proud of you guys. I know, look, I've been trying to write a book now for over a year. It's like a part-time, part-time, part-time job. And it's tough, but I love the way that the payroll community rallies around each other. I think the HR community does just as well too, but not quite like payroll.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_02] And it's great to see everybody, you know, rising tides raise all boats. So love seeing you guys get the support and love for that.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_00] We're trying to elevate payroll and they're not used to that attention.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_00] And so they're going to rally around it.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_02] I would agree. I feel that way about the Payroll Profession Confidence Index. The practitioners have really leaned into it. And yeah, we're just trying to get it in more hands. But look, I want to, I love a good origin story. Tammy, how on earth did this book come about? Like where did, where did it come from? What, what's the earliest origin of this?

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. So I probably wasn't the best payroll professional for a really long time. I think I majored in 10 different things in college. Took me forever to graduate. I finally got my degree in HR. I thought that's where I was going.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, same.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_00] And, you know, I was one of those bad people that just didn't have the right mindset about payroll. I mean, I'll admit it. It was just a job for me, but as luck would have it, we kept getting more and more payroll projects to work on. And everyone knew that was my area of expertise. Because even if I was kind of faking it, like, yeah, yeah, payroll's my job. I still wanted to do a good job. As I started to get more involved, like payroll and I just kept gravitating towards each other.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_00] And the more I got involved and the more I saw out there, I was seeing a lot of the same things. You know, I would go in and do an assessment and I would make a recommendation and their payroll resource would say, yeah, good luck. I already told them that. And there was a lot of just tension and nobody was being developed as a payroll professional. I would recommend involvement in, you know, payroll organizations and certification.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_00] And nobody was taking me seriously about it. Okay. Number one, I need to start working on my influence skills, but it just really disheartened me. And John had written HR Like a Boss. And when I was reading it, I think I have it here. This is interesting. All these tabs. I said, that's relevant to payroll too. What the heck? And so I had been starting to meditate because I had a lot going on in my life and I started

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_00] having these revelations about payroll and it was bothering me a lot. And I started reaching out and like, you know, I met, I started expanding my network outside of Ohio and I started seeing and hearing a lot of the same things. And so one day when I was, you know, meditating, I came out of it and I thought I need to do something about this. What can I do? And so John and I talked and I said, we just really need to do something to get this message out.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_00] And so that's how it came to be.

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_03] Tammy left out the one part, Pete and Julie, where in one of these epiphanies she had after this meditation, she sends me a text. We need to talk. Anybody ever gotten that from somebody you care about that you work with that you don't want to quit? Tammy's quitting. Yeah. Tammy made my heart stop for about five seconds. And luckily it was just Tammy having a thought and needing to getting it out and was like, we need to talk. And it was about the idea of her becoming more involved as a content creator.

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_03] Again, I hate the phrasing influencer thought leader, but just wanting to get her ideas and her impressions out there. And then that led to her having the idea of writing a book and then me providing some counsel to her. And then that turned into, Hey, can you help me co-write the book? And Oh, by the way, let's call it payroll, like a boss. I think her influence skills are just fine, to be honest with you. We wouldn't be here right now if it wasn't for that. Exactly.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. No, she's killing it.

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And it also too, I saw the impact of HR like a boss on the community inside of human resources and the advocation for it and a profession that gets relegated into similar quandaries and not so great places as payroll professionals do. And I just thought it was awesome. And to have a pair like a partner, like Tammy, that would bring that technical expertise in payroll. Trust me, I can do a payroll, but you probably don't want me to do a very large payroll and one that has complexities.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_03] But I can bring the business ownership, the acumen side of it, which is the foundational principle of payroll like a boss, your guide to strategic payroll. It's about being a business leader first. It just so happens to practice in the field of payroll. And what does all that mean? We try to outline all that. And the other really cool part, I know this may be like complete brown nosing because we're on your show. I know Pete, you and I've talked about this a number of times. I know you were both you and Julie had me on this show what feels like about a year ago. It was.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_03] And you were just so positive, so supportive. And when we asked you, Pete, to write the forward, there was zero hesitation. I don't even think email had gotten like it hadn't even landed yet. Yes. What do you need me to do? And the forward you wrote was just a great springboard of the book. The cool part about right now is as we're launching the book came out April 28th. We have the ebook for sale all the way through payroll Congress.

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_03] And then around that same time when that payroll, the ebook ends at 99 cents, we're going to offer an audio book. And Tammy and I were just listening to our voice actors not too long ago. And that's a surreal experience for sure. I can see Tammy smiling right now to hear the payroll version, the voice actor of Tammy Gillenwater.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_02] I think Tammy should read it. I think you should read it, Tammy. It would be perfect. It'd be so authentic.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_00] I don't know. Like who has that kind of time, first of all, right? I know studio and record a book. Well, I want to add I'm going to Brown knows more than John, because John said there was no hesitation from you when we asked you to write the forward. But there was no hesitation when we were trying to decide who to write it. So thank you. We were totally on the same page because we wanted somebody who is really, really passionate and advocates for the profession.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_02] I appreciate you. I appreciate you. Look, I'm very proud of that. And I'm really proud that you guys chose me to do that. I feel like I call myself the chief payroll champion, but I'm trying my hardest to use my platform to leave this profession better. And one of the things, Tammy, like, you know, John, you and I have talked about this, you know, payroll and HR leaders being business leaders. One of the things you talk about that I like in your book, I think you called it bravery or courage or both of payroll leaders.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_02] And I think there's a little bit of an undertone of imposter syndrome sometimes for payroll to step out of their comfort zone and have a voice and have an opinion about the business and not just their, you know, their little world. Talk about that chapter, because I think that was a really important chapter in this book. And maybe to some extent was some therapy for you writing this.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. So it's interesting how that came to be, because I was talking with other payroll professionals that we featured in the book. So, you know, Sarah Chasney and I had a very long conversation about imposter syndrome. Then I talked to Danny Schultz and he brought it up too. And I thought, wow, like these are people that I consider, you know, excellent payroll professionals and they still feel the imposter syndrome. And I know John has heard about it in the HR community as well.

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_00] So for bravery, I just feel like payroll professionals are never expected to speak up. They're never expected to challenge anything and they need to find their voice and use it and challenge and ask for better. But it takes a lot to do that. And even I'm still overcoming it a little bit. It took me a long time to get in a place where I would speak up and say what was on my mind, even with clients, I would like tiptoe around certain things.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_02] Yep.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_00] So I think it's really important because nobody else is putting payroll professionals out in the forefront. So we have to put ourselves there.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_02] Agreed. Yeah. Yeah. We're all we got. And I think you're right. We got it. We got a payroll has to lead into the future. They can't be led any longer. And it's very going to be very critical to our future.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_01] So there's also a bit of like start small and do it regularly. Right. I mean, it's a muscle. You can't just build yourself up to go, you know, climb a mountain once. You really just have to get used to having confidence in the fact that you have sometimes a unique data set, a unique point of view, something valuable to contribute in a lot of different conversations. And that only comes with pushing yourself again and again.

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_03] First off, Tammy was adamant about this chapter, adamant about it. It was a number of discussion point we had. It's got to be this. And even when we did that presentation, Pete, that you saw the very first time at New England payroll conference, Tammy was adamant about using the word bravery and not confidence. It was it was critical to her. I think it's a major coup on her part to encourage that. And here's the thing. And I'd be curious now, Pete, I'm not I don't think you're very bashful. I don't see you like super quiet.

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_03] I think you're more the opposite. Like you're you're like the bravest lion in the payroll community that there is. My perspective of this is when you do something that when you do it right, your recognition is a quiet Friday afternoon, meaning you don't get a bombarded emails. You don't get a bunch of net pay things you need to change and adjust or whatever the case is, working with your vendor, maybe with your bank, whatever the heck happens, because payroll didn't go right.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_03] Right. You end up living in that that lack of recognition, because when you do get recognized in payroll, what do we get recognized for? It doesn't go right. And as a result, when it doesn't go right, you then all of a sudden that you're getting negative recognition. If that's even a phrase, you're right. It's brought to your attention because you did something not on purpose. It just didn't work out. And that happens all the time for every single payroll professional that's out there.

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_03] And I think that's why when Tammy came up with that idea to feature it in the book, which what does bravery have to do with payroll? When you think of it from a technical perspective, probably nothing. But in the spirit of you as a human being and your comfort and your ability to say, I own that mistake and I'm going to make it right. Or I did that payroll well. It was so good that I didn't get any questions. I'm super proud of that as well, if not even more so because of the fact that it was a non-event.

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I love it. I love it. Tammy, in the book, you talk a lot about or a bit about influence and legacy.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I started thinking about legacy because as we know, there's a very high percentage of payroll professionals who are very close to retirement. To me, I feel like it's not too late to define your legacy on the profession. It's not too late to make an impact. And I am trying to convince people. I know that you're going to be retired in two, three years, but if you don't feel like you've already made an impact, let's do it.

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. You know, Tammy, I still have leaders that reach out to me. I could show you DMs from just this year of leaders that are kind of giving up hope that there's ever going to be this sort of proactive attitude towards payroll, right? And giving them the seat at the table, so to speak. And it's even less about that. It's more about like just getting respect. And I see that in my research too. Like, what do you think we're going to have to do to turn the tide? And I know I think a lot of it is going to have to be payroll walking the talk and sort of leading. But what do we do?

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_02] Because I think we're, I feel like we're running out of time. We're running out of talent faster than we're running. We're gaining awareness and gaining support, I guess.

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_00] So what needs to happen is payroll needs to prove their value to their leadership. So, you know, start with some KPIs and metrics and show them this is how we're doing here. Or even if you've made a change, document the impact that that change has had on the business. They also need to start understanding how to speak to their leadership because it's a little different, right?

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_02] Yep.

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_00] Leadership doesn't want every minute detail. They just want you to get to the point and tell them what the issue is or, you know, the recommendation. What's the impact of it? What happens if we do nothing? And so I think that it's really important for payroll professionals to understand how to present that information to leadership. And then, you know, it takes a certain amount of, I'll say assertiveness where you're just going to have to, you know, nobody's going to ask you to show you that data.

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_00] You need to reach out and say, hey, let's, can we schedule 30 minutes so I can show you something?

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_00] It's going to be slow going, but I think eventually we'll get there. I feel like we almost have to.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think a lot more companies are coming around to the realization that they can't let payroll limp and the importance of it is rising. And unfortunately, they're finding out when there's some sort of break or some sort of failure or something they've bought. And we're still reactive. I wish we could get much more proactive and change our paradigm for sure. But John, do you see us making any progress on the HR side? Do you see HR? Because I keep communicating that we have to integrate together, not just plugging in technology,

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_02] but being integrated as a strategic partners to the business, right? Do you see that happening with the leaders that you guys are consulting?

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_03] There's more pockets of that for sure in HR than there is in payroll. No doubt about it. There's still the HR professionals that struggle with relegation to personnel or hiring, firing only. I think the thing that we try to do in the book, there are elements of some slightly technical payroll activities in the book only because we use the word accurate and timely. It's almost like a drinking game. We were very intense about them always being accurate and timely. We had to wordsmith that so many times.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_03] Pete and Julie have no idea that we want to have a drinking game. I didn't count it yet, but we could probably have a Roxanne red lights kind of situation if you remember that drinking game from back in the day. But we're very specific in the book about, just think about for a second, if you're listening as a payroll professional or for Pete and Julie, especially with your influence and seeing really great payroll functions at the same time, seeing incredibly dysfunctional payroll organizations. First off, we have to leverage technology.

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_03] If we're not using the technology that we have to the optimal level, you're just making your job so much more difficult. We then need to be super strategic about what we do or do not do internally. There are certain elements from a technical skill set or a complexity of your organization that it is better to leverage a partner from an outsourcing perspective, whether it's a small firm like ours or whether it's some large, gigantic firm that I know, Pete, you consult all the time.

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_03] And then the last thing that we outline in the book is around building a strategic business operating system. Pete, I know you did a fantastic job and have done that with the index that you've created and the influence you have around that. And it's tremendous. And we thought about really writing about that in the book, but we really wanted to create our own framework that says, how do you look at payroll from a strategic perspective as a business professional? And there were seven or eight elements inside.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_03] And the more that I wrote about it, I was like, well, that's probably why this is hard because it's just not one thing you have to do well. It's a number of things you have to strategically think about. And I know some of you are listening to out there and go, all I got to do is get payroll done accurate and timely. I can't, I don't have time for all this other fill in the blank word, however you want to describe it. If you want to do payroll like a boss, if we want to create a groundswell to where people see payroll completely different than they did before.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_03] Because if we do all those things, imagine the reporting or the capabilities you can bring strategic ideas to your leadership about how to drive out costs, how to minimize overtime, or, Hey, we're about to do an acquisition. And you are involved in that conversation as opposed to after you buy the company in six weeks later, you find about in a press release and you're like, Oh crap, we have to bring 6,000 employees in, in six weeks. And they have their own separate payroll system. Hey, thanks for the heads up CEO, CFO, anyone else.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_03] I think ultimately we have to create the groundswell. I'm optimistic because that's how I'm wired, but I know it's, there's a level of systemic ness to that. And I'm concerned. And to me, Pete and Julie, this is simple as I have and all the work I do around speaking and, and, and writing and any sort of influence I try to have is just one person at a time. I'm not going to change 10,000 payroll professionals at once. It's going to be one interaction at a time, one day at a time.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_03] And that's why I believe Pete, you know, Julie, you'll attest Tammy as well. We need as many of us as possible to get those one people at a time because eventually you might get there to be able to truly change the profession to be that strategic partner.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. That was my goal with the PPCI was to get people to use it as a megaphone. Just use my platform as a megaphone and say, Hey, payroll world, just scream into this thing and, and, and we'll amplify it upward.

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_00] So what's really hard. And I don't know that any of us have really talked about how to address it is that payroll is always in firefighting mode. Everybody I know is in firefighting mode.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_02] And that's unfortunate.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_00] You, you can't do other things when you're constantly putting out fires. And so that transition and, and how to get out of that state. And maybe that means, you know, putting in some extra time to evaluate your processes and make sure they're, they're working right. Evaluate your system configuration is every little thing that you change and you modernize is going to get you one step closer.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Well, look guys, uh, congratulations on this. I'm so excited for you. I know you're going to be at PayCon and you're going to be handing out some books there. I'm sure signing some books, doing some speaking, but Tammy wrapped us up. Uh, what, what would you say to payroll leaders out there that are, you know, hopefully we'll buy the book and read it, but somebody that's maybe just sort of lost, maybe a little paralyzed. I've, I've seen that a bit, right? Not sure they can make a change, not sure they can convince their organization of their value. I'm not sure if they should stay at their organization.

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_02] Um, I've literally had a couple of those conversations this year because there's doubt that the organization will ever mature around what payroll's value is. Um, but what would be your advice to them to, to, to do payroll like a boss?

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_00] Before I answer that, I do want to say this is like, this is for the one person payroll department just as much as the payroll leader. And I think they're the ones who are the most lost because they don't feel like they have a lot of support. There's so much knowledge out there and being with a group of people who can lift you up and give you advice and you can all brainstorm together, right? If you have 10 people who are trying to figure this out, if they work together, they may come up with a solution.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_00] I do think that, and I just did a presentation on this payroll and HR really have to like join together and be a united front. I think it would be much more impactful if they wanted to, to drive a change, it would be way more impactful for them to do it together than separately. Um, so that is something that I would really love to see, but I think, you know, read the book.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_02] Um, you know, yes, read the book. Yes.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_00] When I started following a lot of people on LinkedIn and I started reaching out and meeting to people. And I think I told you before Pete, that every time I listened to one of these episodes, I'll make a note of who your guest was and I'll go find them on LinkedIn.

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_02] Awesome.

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_00] Um, and I think that just building that, that bench of knowledge and support is, is what needs to be done. I know John's going to say something different, but they need to be brave.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_03] No. Yeah. The bravery and the confidence and the community you build. I think we mentioned this in the early part of the show. It's the, the payroll community is incredibly supportive and not a lot of, there's not a lot of vindication. Uh, I wouldn't look at it as competition. We all know how hard the job is, how lonely it is. How again, we prefer that very quiet payroll Friday versus any sort of negative recognition.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_03] The thing I would say, Pete, specifically to that payroll professional that feels lost is I would encourage them to take a moment to look at their job just from above, from 10,000 feet, not into the daily grind as Tammy had suggested. Always. Everything's urgent. You can't make great decisions. You can't change. You're certainly not strategic when you take that approach and we must take time away.

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_03] Even if it is a weekend, even if it's an early morning, even if it's a walk that you take, I know Tammy's made reference to it many times. These meditations that she had changed her payroll life. Yeah. The way that she saw the job, the way that she created her influence, the way that she went on and built her community. And now she's written about it and will be an author of a book specifically around doing amazingly awesome payroll.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_03] I just think sometimes we get so caught up in what is happening that it feels almost like the tail's wagging the dog. We're letting everything else around us, pissed off executives, employees, timelines, outsource partners, whatever it is, shake us around versus I got this. Yeah. I know Tammy Gillenwater. I know Pete Teliakas. I know Julie. I know Sarah. I know all these people. They give them in these snippets.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_03] Now it's my job to build my payroll community, build my payroll kingdom the way that I know it needs to be built. And then just systematically like a badass. Like that's the last thing I will say. And we'll end our keynote on this topic is that I don't care what other people think about payroll. I don't care what they say about it, where they relegate it, how unimportant it is. If you're in this profession, be a badass payroll professional.

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_03] Be a kick-ass payroll leader in your own version, whatever it means. Like just be that. Because if not, then you're as much of the problem as the people that are out there complaining about payroll being a necessary evil or whatever the case is. And I get fired up about it because I've seen Tammy's transformation. I knew her 15 years ago. I didn't know deep down that she didn't really value payroll the way that I thought she did.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_03] But I saw the transition happen. And I've seen a different human being, a different woman, a different leader than the one she was five, six, seven years ago.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_02] I love it. I love it. Perfectly said, man. I couldn't say it any better. And you're right. I think you got to lean into this moment. And there's an opportunity now. We're getting some awareness. We're getting better awareness, I should say. We're getting the technology. There really is investment. If there's ever been a golden age, it's now. And now's the time to lean into that. And so, yeah, look, I applaud you. Congrats, Tammy. Congrats, John. Thank you. And all the best on getting this thing out there. Look, where can everyone get in touch with you? Obviously, PayCon, right? We'll see you around there. But where can they get the book?

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_02] I know I'll throw your LinkedIn's in here. Willery. What else? What else can we do to share?

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_03] PayrollLikeABoss.com is live. We'll redirect people. Oh, it is. We're creating. Yes. We're creating. We've got so many things going on. We're creating a community inside of. So we're creating a Payroll Like a Boss community for thought leadership and collaboration. So we did with HR Like a Boss.

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_03] And I know Tammy and I are getting requests, as I'm sure you all can attest, of speaking engagements at state conferences and payroll community leaders just to get the word out, to inspire that one person to truly take ownership of their job, find a way to love it again, and be a kick-ass payroll professional. That's what we're all about. But yeah, you can find us at willery.com. You can find us on LinkedIn. You can go to payroll. You can Google payroll like a boss. Or you can go onto Amazon or any other major book retailer and buy the e-book.

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_03] And or you can buy the paperback.

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_02] I love it. I love it. Congratulations. Yeah. Man, just I hope you come back with an update. I'm sure there'll be maybe some updates after, you know, as always, a second edition, third edition. So come back when that happens and we'll see you around PayCon. And Tammy, congrats. Seriously, I'm really proud of you. So appreciate you guys. Good seeing everyone. We'll be back soon.