Tonille Miller - How to Identify and Reverse Toxic Company Culture

[00:00:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Here's an experiment for you.

[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Take passionate experts in human resource technology.

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Invite cross-industry experts from inside and outside HR.

[00:00:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Mix in what's happening in people analytics today.

[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Give them the technology to connect.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Hit record.

[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Pour their discussions into a beaker.

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Mix thoroughly.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And voila!

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_00]: You get the HR Data Labs podcast,

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_00]: where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business.

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_00]: We may get passionate, and even irreverent,

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_00]: but count on each episode challenging

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and enhancing your understanding of the way people data

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_00]: can be used to solve real-world problems.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast.

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host, David Turetsky,

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and like always we try and find fascinating people

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: inside and outside the world of HR

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_01]: to give you the latest on what's happening

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and what affects you today.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Today we have Tonille Miller.

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome, Tonille. How are you?

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm great, David. How are you?

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Besides being chilly.

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Very chilly.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, spring has decided to throw us a curveball here in Massachusetts,

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and we have frost warnings every night this week.

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah.

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I hope the plants I planted are going to be fine.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So, Tonille, tell us a little bit about you

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and how you got to this moment in your career.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So I've spent most of my career in the large consulting firms,

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_02]: a couple of startups as well as a couple of global companies.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And then a couple years ago I just started my own thing,

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and so I've been doing the same work primarily,

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_02]: but it's all for myself now, which is really fun

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_02]: because I get to kind of pick and choose the clients

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's a lot around culture and hybrid distributed teams,

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_02]: it's change and transformation, all that good stuff.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Cool. So, Tonille, one thing we asked every guest

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_01]: on the HR Data Labs podcast is

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_01]: what's one fun thing that no one knows about you?

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, up until now nobody, not hardly anybody knew this about me,

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_02]: but now I've told a few folks.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_02]: But basically during the pandemic I took up painting

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and now I've probably got about 30 different canvases

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_02]: that I've given some to friends and family,

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I have my apartment full of it,

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's just having a blast doing it.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: That's awesome.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_01]: That's like spurring on your creativity.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_01]: That's wonderful.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, your creativity will be on show today

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: because we're going to be talking about something very near and dear

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_01]: to a lot of our hearts, which is culture.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And so our topic for today is culture,

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_01]: how toxic culture can manifest

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and what you can actually do about it,

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_01]: how do you measure it,

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and how can you evolve and improve your culture?

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So, Tonille, our first question is,

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_01]: we hear a lot about culture these days

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and you actually have this in your book as well,

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_01]: that culture can either be a toxic chemical

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_01]: or an autonomous vehicle for driving strategy.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you mean by that?

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: How does that actually work?

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, thank you for the question.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think this is the interesting part,

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_02]: because I think a lot of...

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_02]: We all know that culture's important.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_02]: We hear the stats.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_02]: We read the articles.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_02]: But we don't really know.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of folks are kind of mistaken

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_02]: on what it actually is

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and that it actually can be a strategic lever.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And so what I always think of it as is, you know,

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_02]: culture is absolutely going to make or break the organization

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_02]: in the form of profitability, productivity, engagement,

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_02]: agility, collaboration, innovation,

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_02]: all these things that organizations want,

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_02]: customer satisfaction, turnover, healthcare costs even,

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_02]: all that stuff.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's really important in that way.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_02]: But what data is showing is that, you know,

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_02]: most organizations focus their culture,

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_02]: but do focus on their culture.

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_02]: They see, I think it's four times more revenue growth.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the other number there is like

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_02]: over 800% of stock prices is 800% higher

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_02]: than those that don't focus on it deliberately.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And then those, again, who are focusing

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_02]: on the culture deliberately,

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: they see a 13% in sales per employee.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So like those are compelling stats.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Like that's not just fluffy stuff.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's why I open up with that

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_02]: because I think it's important to ground us

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_02]: in the fact that it actually is important.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_02]: It actually is strategic.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not just, you know, Taco Tuesdays.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And along those lines,

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's where we get tripped up, right?

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I think, you know,

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of folks believe that it is the Taco Tuesdays.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_02]: It is the foosball tables.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And to be honest, on the contrary,

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_02]: culture does not require being co-located.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So the way I think of it is

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_02]: culture is the lifestyle of the organization.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So it really governs how people interact,

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_02]: how they mingle, how they hustle,

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_02]: how they behave together,

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_02]: whether they're in the office or at home

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_02]: or even sending emails on the train, you know,

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_02]: or during their commute.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So they're all,

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_02]: they're demonstrating your culture

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_02]: in all of those places.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So it doesn't even require being in the same building.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And I like, I have always told people,

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like you can actually build a stronger,

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_02]: more inclusive and effective culture actually

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_02]: when you're in that hybrid

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_02]: or distributed environment

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_02]: because it forces you to be very intentional about it

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and making sure that you're embedding it in

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: to everything that you do

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_02]: rather than just, you know,

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_02]: not really thinking about it

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and kind of it just organically happens

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_02]: based on the lowest common denominator

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_02]: of behavior that's tolerated.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that's what we want to kind of steer away from.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Who are typically the leaders of this culture?

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Is it really from the head down

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_01]: or is it really that HR needs to drive it

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and that the leaders need to kind of follow?

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Who actually owns culture at a company?

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I would say this is with,

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, beyond culture.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_02]: This certainly applies to culture,

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_02]: but it really could apply to any strategic initiative

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_02]: or thing that you're trying to play experience, for example.

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_02]: But I would say it needs to be role modeled by leaders

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm talking role modeled

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_02]: in the sense of everything the leaders do

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and everything they allow to take place

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and allow other people to do,

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_02]: everything they're telling stories about,

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_02]: everything they're rewarding or punishing.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the culture.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the leaders do need to lead it in every way,

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_02]: but, you know, HR is really good at,

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I think, operationalizing it through different ways

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_02]: of embedding it into the organization.

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_02]: But I honestly think culture should be owned by everybody.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, we all want to be in a good environment.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody wants to work in a toxic environment.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think the onus is on each individual person also

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_02]: to drive the culture they want to see.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And what that means is how I treat people every day,

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_02]: how I interact and how I behave,

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and every single person impacts the culture.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So I really think everybody owns it.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody owns it, but is there a leader?

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Is there someone who kind of...

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I know that in most organizations

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_01]: we look up to the CEO to kind of be that leader

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_01]: to kind of drive, you know, how things are portrayed

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_01]: or at least how they think the organization should act.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I said, it has to be led by leaders.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So yes, it needs to be 1,000% owned by leaders on the top,

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_02]: but then it needs to trickle down

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and everybody else needs to own it.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Because one of the biggest problems that we see

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_02]: with bad cultures or toxic cultures is a lot of the symptoms

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_02]: are really coming from leaders not role modeling it

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_02]: or leaders talking out of one side of their mouth,

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_02]: but they're doing something else over here.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's the thing too, I think,

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_02]: that a lot of people get confused on is that

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_02]: there's not really a one size fits all magical, beautiful culture.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_02]: It really depends on the organization,

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_02]: what your strategic goals are

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and how you want to operationalize the strategy

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_02]: through the culture.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_02]: But the point is the biggest problem is

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_02]: no matter what that culture you want it to be,

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_02]: if there is incongruence between what we say is the culture

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and what we allow to happen,

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_02]: that's when you lose all credibility as a leader

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and as an organization.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's really the most important key there.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Like what you hear so far?

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Make sure you never miss a show by clicking subscribe.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is made possible by Salary.com.

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Now back to the show.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So let's go to question two.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_01]: How does a toxic culture manifest?

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_01]: You talked a little bit about toxic culture

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and how it can affect,

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_01]: but what is the impact of a toxic culture?

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, so a couple things.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, if you're cool with this,

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I can talk about a few things that I mentioned in the book,

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_02]: which are like the group clauses and solutions,

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_02]: because we all, as I go through these,

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure people will be like,

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_02]: oh yeah, I've seen that.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep, that, but we don't always know where it comes from.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So I like to kind of help people understand that.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So again, number one,

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_02]: what we just talked about that incongruence,

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_02]: that's number one,

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_02]: that is one of the biggest sources of a toxic culture.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So this is like, again,

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_02]: leaders not living up to the standards

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_02]: that they're talking to,

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_02]: not punishing bad behavior,

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_02]: allowing that bad behavior to exist.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_02]: That type of thing that really rose trust

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_02]: that undermines the foundation

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_02]: because then people see, oh, we say this,

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_02]: but this is okay over here.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And so then that creates all kinds of problems,

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_02]: even beyond the culture,

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_02]: it creates those other behaviors and problems

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_02]: in the way that people work together.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Who knows potential,

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_02]: really when you think about ethical behavior

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_02]: or lack thereof,

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_02]: that also starts that a little bit.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_02]: The other piece is interesting

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_02]: that I've seen in a few places

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_02]: is where the leaders are not leading.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So just like you mentioned,

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I think of leaders as the parents

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_02]: of the company in a way, right?

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So when you think about, like,

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm an absent parent in the family system,

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_02]: it's the same thing as when leaders are not

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_02]: setting the vision and are not setting the structures.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe they're just kind of that figurehead,

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_02]: but they're not really interacting with folks

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and kind of really making things happen

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and owning them.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So I've seen that be really problematic

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_02]: because then the leadership team

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and the different departments

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_02]: start operating in fiefdoms and silos.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm sure people have seen that in companies.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Lots of times it's because that leader

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_02]: is not a strong leader

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and they're not bringing everybody together

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_02]: under the same vision.

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's a big piece,

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and that obviously impacts the whole organization as well.

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So then the solution to that really is

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of building, knocking those silos down,

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_02]: having that leader lead at that really high-level vision

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and really building the collaboration muscles

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_02]: across the organization.

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I think another really big one

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_02]: is a lack of transparency,

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_02]: especially when it's critical.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think especially today

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_02]: because with social media,

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_02]: everybody's a broadcaster,

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_02]: everybody has access to information on Glassdoor,

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_02]: LinkedIn, everywhere else.

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it's kind of like if you're not

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_02]: going out and getting in front of that

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_02]: as an organization, as a leader,

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and being transparent with your people,

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_02]: they're going to hear about it somewhere else

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's not going to be a good thing.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's really important

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: because that really builds or loses trust

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_02]: depending on how transparent you are.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I think a lot of that comes in too

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_02]: when you think about when layoffs are happening

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_02]: or there's rumors of layoffs.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_02]: That is a time to be very transparent, right?

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Because people are going to hear it and feel it

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and then they start creating stories in their minds

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and then that's obviously no one's focused on the work

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_02]: when they're worried about stories and drama

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and things like that.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's one.

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_02]: The other piece we mentioned a little bit

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_02]: is like the tolerating bad behavior.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So we've all heard that no asshole rule,

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure we've all heard that.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Sure, sure.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_02]: But unfortunately we see like,

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_02]: well maybe this is like this rock star salesperson

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_02]: who brings in so much revenue

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_02]: but he treats people like crap

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_02]: or there's this woman over here

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_02]: who's gaslighting and bullying her people

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_02]: but then she's kind of kissing up

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and kicking down that kind of thing

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_02]: so people don't really understand

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_02]: what's going on there.

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_02]: That is very toxic.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's a lot of mental health issues

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_02]: that come out of situations like that.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's one cause of toxic culture as well.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And in this you have to really be proactive, right?

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Like there's a lot of things you can do

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_02]: to get around this.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Like in those cases,

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_02]: implementing 360 reviews,

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_02]: lots of anonymous feedback,

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_02]: lots of channels,

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_02]: auditing exit interviews is really important

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and just really creating that psychological safety

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_02]: is a good way to kind of get around that

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and find those people and kick them out.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I think the other one too

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_02]: that I see a lot of,

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and this is kind of counterintuitive,

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_02]: is we've all probably experienced an organization

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_02]: where everybody's so nice, oh my gosh,

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_02]: everybody's like this.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm from the Midwest

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_02]: so I've experienced a lot of those

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's wonderful.

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_02]: It wouldn't seem toxic

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_02]: but if there's no candor

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and people are not holding people accountable

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_02]: and they're not comfortable sharing things

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_02]: honestly with each other,

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_02]: that actually can become toxic too

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_02]: even though you wouldn't expect it

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_02]: because the performance starts suffering.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_02]: There's not, you know what I mean?

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_02]: People aren't directly challenging people openly.

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_02]: That can be very problematic.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I've seen certain situations

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_01]: where that specific situation happens

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_01]: when they believe they're getting bullied at work though,

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_01]: where they can't be honest

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_01]: or they believe that getting that honesty out

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_01]: or being transparent with maybe their boss

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_01]: or the leader will cause them to get

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: flailed on a little bit

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_01]: or beat down.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And so that, yes, I totally agree with you.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_01]: That's toxicity.

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_01]: But is it,

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and maybe to the extent of which,

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_01]: is bullying rampant in some organizations,

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_01]: especially when they have toxic cultures?

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, I think it absolutely is.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's the thing is like,

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_02]: it's one thing if there's one person that's like that.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that obviously you still need to get rid of them

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_02]: but the point is for every other person

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_02]: that sees that, experiences that,

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: whether they are being bullied

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_02]: or they're witnessing others being bullied,

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_02]: the more that that happens,

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_02]: people start thinking it's okay.

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_02]: It becomes normalized

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's what creates that toxic culture

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and proliferates.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think any organization just starts out

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_02]: with a bunch of jerks.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_02]: It's usually like there's one or two people

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_02]: that are doing things

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and they keep getting away with it.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's why we need to be deliberate.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_02]: That's where the leaders come in.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, you can't let those people stay there

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_02]: because it may sound great

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_02]: that they're bringing in that extra revenue today,

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_02]: but that's the short game

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_02]: because the damage they're doing

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and the financial metrics that come with that long term

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_02]: and the mental health and all that stuff,

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_02]: it's just not worth it.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's what I always advise folks on.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And then with that comes that psychological safety.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So there's like, if you think of,

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I hate to bring on names, but like Amazon,

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I think formerly Microsoft maybe a long time ago,

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_02]: there's certain other organizations

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_02]: where they were operating from a fear-based culture.

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_02]: When you have that, there's not psychological safety

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_02]: which means people are not going to speak up.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, Boeing, right?

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_02]: All the different news that's coming around Boeing now.

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_02]: People didn't feel comfortable speaking up

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and so then all these horrible accidents are happening

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and the quality of the product isn't there.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So that is extremely dangerous

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_02]: because it's not just dangerous

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_02]: with people inside the company,

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_02]: it actually happens and it impacts all the customers

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_02]: and different people across the world.

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So those are just like some of the flavors

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_02]: just at a high level of a couple of the ways

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_02]: that some of these toxic cultures show up.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to talk a little bit about

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_01]: that transparency piece you were talking about

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_01]: because transparency with disingenuous, disingenuousness,

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's the word that you were bringing up,

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: especially when it came to the layoffs.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And we saw some pretty famous, horrible examples of this

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_01]: when a CEO would get in and would communicate layoffs

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_01]: via social media and they would use awful examples

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_01]: that kind of were totally tone deaf

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_01]: given some of the situations that they were in,

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_01]: whether it was from an incentive perspective

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_01]: or whether it was from the situation

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_01]: that was clearly wrong or not true.

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And so that had a huge backlash against them

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and how do we survive?

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_01]: How does a company survive that cultural earthquake

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_01]: that happens when those things occur or tsunami,

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_01]: pick your natural disaster.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_01]: How do they survive that?

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's such a tricky one.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is one of the biggest things I try to advise

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_02]: like if I'm working with a company

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and they're going to have to go through layoffs,

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_02]: which is kind of common in my work

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_02]: is a lot of it's transformation and change

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and automation.

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And so inevitably there ends up being that flavor

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_02]: to it sometimes.

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And then one thing I focus on with them though,

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_02]: is we need to say as much as we can legally.

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I know legally that there's certain different parameters

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_02]: for some companies where they can't say everything

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_02]: or they can't say certain things to certain people

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_02]: until it's time.

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_02]: But there is a lot more transparency.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of the waiting on that

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_02]: is because people don't, they're just not comfortable.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It's more of an emotional psychological thing

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and they don't want to, and they almost,

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_02]: it's almost like, do you think that you're just not

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_02]: going to have to lay people off

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_02]: because you wait longer to tell them?

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_02]: No, you knew months ago.

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And so what I do, I guide them and I say,

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_02]: let's make sure we get everybody coached,

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_02]: whether it's HR leaders or whoever it is,

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_02]: the managers who have to deliver the message.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Half the battle is them just being uncomfortable

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_02]: delivering it.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So we need to coach them and train them

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_02]: on how to deliver it.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_02]: But to your point, not tone deaf.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_02]: It needs to be as early as possible, I always say.

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Because then it gives people,

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'll give you some examples in a moment

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_02]: of when this has gone really well and how they did it.

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_02]: But the more time you give people,

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_02]: the more that they trust you

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and they really admire you as an employer.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Because again, we all know layoffs are inevitable at times,

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_02]: but the fact is if you give them a hand in the game,

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_02]: you're as transparent and honest with them

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_02]: as early as possible.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_02]: It gives them more time to look for another role,

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_02]: whether it's in the company or out of the company.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And again, that just builds better goodwill.

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_02]: But then with that, again, I've seen,

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_02]: we've all seen that Zoom calls

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_02]: that have been recorded by people lately

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_02]: with layoffs and the HR person

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_02]: who's just horrible and tone deaf

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and there's no empathy.

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the other part is it's not just delivering

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_02]: it as early as possible,

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_02]: but it's like deliver it with the empathy

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_02]: that it's happening to you literally, right?

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And thinking about how it's going to impact them

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and their family and all in their esteem,

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_02]: livelihood, all that stuff.

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_02]: So what I would say then,

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_02]: if you think about this on a positive note,

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Airbnb, I say it in the book,

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I will say it all day long,

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_02]: they literally, I think Brian offered a masterclass

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_02]: in how you do layoffs well during the pandemic.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_02]: He did this, right?

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't need to go too in depth here,

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_02]: but if there's a spot in my book,

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_02]: you can Google it.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I think it's a May 2020 letter

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_02]: at Airbnb and it's literally this letter

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_02]: that it covered everything in a letter, right?

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So everyone that was getting layoff,

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_02]: they got this email or this letter or whatever.

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And literally it was everything

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_02]: that all the companies that do it wrong don't do.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_02]: So he gave them tons of severance,

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_02]: as much notice as possible.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I think he let them keep the laptop.

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_02]: He was helping them find jobs with other companies.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_02]: One of the most important things that he did

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_02]: is in this letter, he specified,

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_02]: this has nothing to do with your performance

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_02]: because that's the other part that comes into this too

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_02]: is people start thinking, oh, I'm getting laid off.

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I must be a poor performer.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So there's all these like downward spirals

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_02]: that happen psychologically when someone gets laid off

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and then the impacts and the ripples

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_02]: throughout the organization

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_02]: because everyone else is worried that they're next.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So that all kind of play,

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_02]: all these things I'm rattling off here

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_02]: really play into the whole ecosystem of transparency,

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_02]: doing layoffs right, you know what I mean?

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And just kind of like not just for the people

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_02]: because it's the right thing to do,

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_02]: but also for the ecosystem of the company

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_02]: because like I said,

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_02]: you lose so much productivity and wellbeing

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and all this stuff and trust

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_02]: from your people that are still left there.

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's actually an even bigger problem, right?

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Because again, they're not adding the value

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_02]: you want them to,

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_02]: they're looking for other jobs

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and they're probably not giving you their best

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_02]: on any level at that point in time

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_02]: because you've broken trust with their friends

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and now they have to cover their friend's jobs

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_02]: because their friends got laid off.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_02]: So that was a lot of real talk there,

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_02]: but those are just some of the things

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_02]: that I see when you wanna be thinking about

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_02]: when it comes to transparency and layoffs

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and things like that.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, are you listening to this

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and thinking to yourself,

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_01]: man, I wish I could talk to David about this.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you're in luck.

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_01]: We have a special offer for listeners

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_01]: of the HR Data Labs podcast.

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_01]: A free half hour call with me

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_01]: about any of the topics we cover

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_01]: on the podcast or whatever is on your mind.

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Go to salary.com forward slash HRDL consulting

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_01]: to schedule your free 30 minute call today.

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So the third question,

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: which is probably gonna be a long one

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_01]: because this is a big question.

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_01]: What can people do to create a great culture?

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_01]: One that drives organizational strategy

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and in your words,

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_01]: enables people to do the best work of their lives.

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm, yeah.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I would say again,

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_02]: there's no one size fits all that works for every company

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_02]: because some people are like,

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_02]: oh, well we wanna be more innovative in this field

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_02]: or over here we wanna increase revenue.

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_02]: We're charging towards this or that.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So first of all, getting clear on what exactly

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_02]: you're trying to achieve as an organization

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_02]: is a great starting point.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And then you reverse engineer the culture from there

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_02]: to deliver the behaviors and the actions

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and the ways of working to deliver that strategy.

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So when I think of great cultures,

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I think of again, the one,

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I always use this example

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_02]: because it's such a great example,

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_02]: but it's the one that evolved at Microsoft.

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So before Satya Nadella,

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean it was definitely that fear based culture.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_02]: It was very, it was not a good place to work on any level.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I think everyone knows that.

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the good news is when Satya took over,

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_02]: he basically came in and said,

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_02]: okay, we want to continue.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_02]: We wanna attract, we wanna cultivate

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and retain high performers.

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_02]: How do we do that now?

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Because this culture is no longer serving us.

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And so what they did was they basically took

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_02]: this really holistic approach.

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it was only a matter of like nine months

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_02]: or so, and they went from being what they call

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_02]: as a culture of know-it-alls

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_02]: to one of learn-it-alls, leveraging girl mindset

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_02]: work from Carol Dweck.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it became this whole new flip on,

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_02]: oh, we're not the smartest people in the room.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_02]: We're gonna ask questions.

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_02]: We're gonna not be afraid to experiment with things

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and try things out and fail.

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And so now today they're like one of,

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_02]: if not the most valuable company in the world.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_02]: So how they did it was again,

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_02]: they really grounded it in Carol Dweck's work

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_02]: around the girl mindset.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And what they, a lot of some of the guiding principles

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_02]: they used I think was, first of all,

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_02]: they really had the leaders, as we mentioned,

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_02]: role model and lead this and really role modeling

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_02]: vulnerability and humility.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And this can come in all kinds of different flavors.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Some leaders are more comfortable sharing

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_02]: certain things, some are not.

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I understand that.

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_02]: But there's only some level of that that you can share.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_02]: It can be something as simple as,

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_02]: oh, I just started using GBT

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and I don't know how to use it.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's my funny story about how I was an idiot

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_02]: using GBT or how I got some coaching from my intern.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Like it could be something as simple as that

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_02]: or it could be what some of the CEOs have done

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_02]: in other organizations where they're literally saying,

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_02]: hey, I'm not having a good mental health week.

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is what it feels like for me.

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And it opens up that space.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And I've worked for some of these companies

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's really powerful how it opens up the space

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_02]: for other people to do that as well.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So first of all, leaders are role modeling

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_02]: the vulnerability and the humility,

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_02]: creating a safe-to-fail environment.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Again, constantly reiterating the fact that,

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_02]: like for example, here's a tactical example,

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_02]: different at the beginning of a team meeting

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_02]: or a town hall or whatever, it's like,

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_02]: oh, let's say this team quote failed.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't really believe in failure,

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_02]: but let's say they tried something

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and it was not really a success.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, the leader could talk about that story

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_02]: in the town hall and share with people,

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_02]: hey, you know what?

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_02]: It's really great.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_02]: They tried this thing over here.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't successful, but guess what?

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_02]: They learned one, two, three, four, and five.

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And we're going to apply this to step over here

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and just kind of normalizing it and telling stories.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And so kind of the more that leaders do that

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_02]: sort of thing is how they can really lead these things

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_02]: in a culture.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And again, rewarding behavior like that,

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_02]: the behaviors you want to see and recognizing that,

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_02]: not allowing the folks that are doing

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_02]: the bad behaviors that we don't want to see,

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_02]: not allowing that to exist.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Really coaching the managers, right?

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So the managers became more of coaches.

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_02]: They weren't just like task masters at Microsoft

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_02]: when they mischanged.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_02]: They actually became more coach-like

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and coachable up, down, all around.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So that was really powerful.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And again, up, down, all around feedback

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_02]: is also part of the mix here too, right?

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So just making it very normal to deliver

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_02]: that real-time feedback.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And we can talk more about what that looks like.

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But some cultures are not comfortable with feedback.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I've seen this in companies.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I've actually implemented different things

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_02]: where something as simple as

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_02]: we have a new way of working,

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_02]: that at the end of each meeting,

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_02]: we go around and we talk about what we did well

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_02]: or what worked well, what didn't,

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and what we're doing differently next time.

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And that way it's not like anyone's being blamed.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_02]: We're all kind of tackling it together.

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_02]: It becomes very normalized.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And no one feels like they're emotionally hijacked

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_02]: at the end of a conversation

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_02]: when someone's like, I have feedback for you.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_02]: It's more like, oh no, okay,

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_02]: this is something we do at the end of every meeting

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_02]: no matter what, and it just becomes normal.

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's one thing they did.

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_02]: On metrics too, I'm sure your audience

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_02]: will appreciate the metrics,

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_02]: the measurement part of this.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So really building those metrics into the culture.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think at Microsoft,

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_02]: what they did, or at least maybe it was another company,

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_02]: but they actually built the new behaviors

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_02]: into the way people were measured

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and got incentives and bonuses and things like that.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's kind of like,

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I think there was a metric built into

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_02]: how did you help other teams this year,

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_02]: not just individually,

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_02]: how did you score and do things as a win on your own?

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_02]: It was like what other teams did you help?

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_02]: How did you enable other teams' goals to take place

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and that kind of thing?

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's just a high level there,

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_02]: but just some of the things that they did

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and some of the things I think companies could implement

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_02]: if they want to have a better culture.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_01]: But those things are important, Tenille,

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_01]: because what it enables you to do

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_01]: is to be able to show the correlation,

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_01]: not just casual correlation.

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: You can actually show a correlation

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_01]: between the behaviors, the outcomes,

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_01]: as well as what did people do,

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_01]: how did they exhibit to be able to have this happen,

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_01]: which are really great learnings

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_01]: so that they can be repeatable.

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And I like your feedback loops.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_01]: The feedback loops are very important.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Measurable feedback loops are even better.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's really wonderful,

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_01]: because then it enables the culture

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_01]: to be something that's seen as a...

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you mentioned at the beginning,

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_01]: a business strategy,

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_01]: not just this cool HR thing

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_01]: that they think that they're going to drive

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's going to be another worthless exercise in HR,

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_01]: but it becomes part of the business strategy,

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_01]: it becomes part of the business life,

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and it makes it something that, as you say,

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_01]: then puts food on the table

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_01]: because their incentives tied to it.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's awesome.

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and especially a lot of the people on this podcast

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: or listening to this podcast feel very strongly

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_01]: about being able to measure

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and being able to measure successes.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you see it really often

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_01]: where companies that display these types of cultures

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_01]: are actually measuring it beyond Microsoft?

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes.

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Is it something that actually becomes part of the...

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Is it part of the performance rating system

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_01]: or the performance management system,

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_01]: or is it something else that gets rated?

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_02]: A couple things here.

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So yes, it is part of the performance management.

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like...

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_02]: You know how a lot of companies will say,

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_02]: like, you know,

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_02]: how did you achieve your goals?

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's always like an individual tip.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Most companies, it's like individual focus

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_02]: of like how you achieve something,

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_02]: but they actually build that question in

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_02]: that says, how did you help other teams?

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Like what did you do to help other teams

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_02]: or other people this year?

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And so people are thinking about that

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_02]: from day one, the beginning of the year,

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and so it's keeping it top of mind

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and they're looking for different ways

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_02]: that they can plug that in.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think some of the other things,

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_02]: if you're cool with it,

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I know your audience is all about measurement here

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and data, if you think about measuring a culture,

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_02]: there's actually surprisingly

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of great ways to measure it.

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So there's qualitative measures

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_02]: like employee surveys,

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_02]: there's focus groups you could do an interview

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_02]: just to specifically get at this piece.

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_02]: There's again, I love state interviews

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and exit interviews to get real accurate data.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's really helpful.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_02]: You can look at your data

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_02]: like your employee turnover rates,

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_02]: productivity metrics, absenteeism rates.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_02]: That also speaks to the culture.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_02]: There's attendance participation

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_02]: and level of enthusiasm, if you will,

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_02]: at company events.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_02]: You can kind of start gauging some of that.

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Some of it's more qualitative than quantitative,

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_02]: but you get the picture.

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_02]: There's also, if you look at the frequency

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and the level of effectiveness

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_02]: of cross-departmental cooperation,

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_02]: like if you know for a fact,

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_02]: oh yeah, we have all these silos,

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_02]: no one's getting along,

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_02]: there's a culture problem there.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's something.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think the external metrics are really interesting too,

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_02]: especially in today's world,

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_02]: which would be things like glass door ratings,

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_02]: customer feedback,

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_02]: whether or not the company gets those awards

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_02]: that everybody wants,

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_02]: like the best place to work and that sort of thing.

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So all those things really can play into

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_02]: a nice culture measurement strategy.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And they can start by reading your book

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and be able to be much more armed

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and warned about the things to stay away from,

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_01]: from the toxicity perspective,

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_01]: as well as to be, you know,

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_01]: how to suggest moving into this

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_01]: to be able to become or have a more effective,

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_01]: more positive culture.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Tenille, thank you so much.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_01]: We're actually going to have a link

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_01]: for your book on the show notes

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_01]: so that everybody can buy it

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and follow along at home,

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_01]: because I think that one of the things

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_01]: that we hear from a lot of our listeners is,

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, we want to be able to do something

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_01]: coming out of these podcasts

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and I think you've given us a lot of food for thought

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_01]: about how do you transform a culture,

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_01]: as well as how do you measure it

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and how do you make it an effective business strategy.

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Awesome. Well, I hope your listeners appreciate it.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I hope they enjoy it.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And I would love to hear if other folks have ideas

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_02]: or ways that they're doing these things

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_02]: or implementing a great culture.

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd love to hear them.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you very much, Tenille.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Appreciate you being here.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for having me.

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And thank you all for listening.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Take care and stay safe.

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_00]: If you know anyone that might like to hear it,

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_00]: please send it their way.

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for joining us this week

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and stay tuned for our next episode.

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Stay safe.