Sean Luitjens - Why and How to Share HR Data Effectively

[00:00:02] Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology

[00:00:07] Invite cross-industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics today

[00:00:15] Give them the technology to connect, hit record, pour their discussions into a beaker

[00:00:21] mix thoroughly and

[00:00:23] Voila! You get the HR Data Labs podcast where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business

[00:00:31] We may get passionate and even irreverent that count on each episode

[00:00:35] Challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real-world problems

[00:00:41] Now here's your host David Turetsky

[00:00:46] Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host David Turetsky alongside my trusted co-host friend, colleague

[00:00:53] From salary.com Dwight Brown. Dwight, how are you? David? I'm good

[00:00:56] I finally remember to put my mic right up to my mouth this time, which I almost never do on

[00:01:02] It's very effective in hearing you. Yes, so it's a good day today. I'm really I'm knocking it out of the park already and

[00:01:09] We are gonna have fun today because we have with us our friend

[00:01:12] Some call him simple, but I don't his name is Sean Lutjens. Sean. How are you? I'm good

[00:01:18] I'm already feeling a little concerned. I don't have one of these professional mics like you guys

[00:01:24] Feeling out of out of my depth when you spend enough time behind a microphone certainly not in front of one but behind one

[00:01:32] You realize that it makes you sound better. So and actually the things that come out of your mouth sound better, too

[00:01:37] I don't think I think I'm behind a microphone helping that but but we'll go from there

[00:01:42] Well, my mom always said I had a face for radio

[00:01:44] So and people have heard me say that a million times. So there you go and Sean you're definitely you have a face for video

[00:01:51] They say that now I I don't even know what to do with that

[00:01:57] Why don't you tell us Sean a little bit about your background a little bit where you are today, how about that?

[00:02:01] Sure. So currently at Vizier is the general manager of the total awards, you know business over there

[00:02:09] That that that we're launching and before that going way back to the last Millennium

[00:02:15] I've been around talent acquisition and

[00:02:18] Comp and bend so and for the most part around comp and bend and I think you know, like you weirdly enough we dig it

[00:02:25] And how we can help organizations kind of learn and get better in that space

[00:02:30] So won't go through the whole company people can find luchians on LinkedIn pretty easy or it's kind of natural selection

[00:02:36] And for those of you who have never heard of him before I don't know where you've been

[00:02:40] But Sean you've been in I've known about you for forever

[00:02:45] Especially from back from your Mercer days and

[00:02:49] And probably even before that but it's it's good to have you on the show again. No, it's great

[00:02:54] It's always always fun talking with you until we say hey Sean

[00:02:59] What's one fun thing that no one knows about you?

[00:03:03] I don't know that it's a

[00:03:06] Fun thing. I'm a huge soccer fan actually which I like to call football

[00:03:11] You know as real folks do over in the other the other country, so I'm a big Arsenal fan and so

[00:03:17] Gone through when they were good to bad and now we're reasonably good again

[00:03:20] And I have this weird goal of trying to make it to all 20 pitches in the Premier League one year

[00:03:26] Which if you are a football or soccer fan three go up and three go down every year

[00:03:31] So it's a little bit of a moving target

[00:03:32] Yeah

[00:03:33] So when I'm over I try to try to catch matches all over the place

[00:03:36] Does that include Wrexham are they not in the Premier League Wrexham is not the Premier League

[00:03:44] Couple leagues down I have part I have clubs that I've been to several times

[00:03:47] So at Queens Park Rangers, which I'm sure most Americans haven't heard of I've probably been to right

[00:03:52] I don't know 20 30 times having lived in London. I will tell you I went to Wembley to see a game and

[00:03:58] It was our match. It was just amazing

[00:04:02] Yeah, it's really cool and Queens Park like the stadium if you want to talk, you know in the US they talk about these old

[00:04:07] old stadiums

[00:04:08] You know built in 1888 right? I'm still there. I'm still concerning when you walk underneath it

[00:04:16] So don't walk out while you have to guess walk underneath it to get into the stadium, right you do yeah

[00:04:22] So Sean today we're gonna have a little bit of fun because what we're gonna be talking about today is

[00:04:28] didn't they teach us to share in kindergarten and

[00:04:31] Let's get to question one. So the question is why can't we just get along?

[00:04:44] And we have a lot of data in HR

[00:04:47] We don't really share analytics across HR let alone the entire business and when you and I were talking about this

[00:04:55] What did you mean when you were saying just get along around analytics?

[00:04:58] I think some of it comes from the well, I'm gonna throw out a you know an acronym

[00:05:02] So I sound like I know what I'm doing but they're okay ours. Oh, yeah

[00:05:06] So if you think about talent acquisition, right

[00:05:08] so recruiters are really measured a lot of times on two things and they're measured on time to fill a number of recs filled and

[00:05:15] Obviously if you're a recruiter without jobs to recruit for you're probably not a recruiter

[00:05:19] And so they want to get those things done. That's their metrics

[00:05:23] And as we know whatever is measured is what's done and so recruiters really jam on that

[00:05:28] They don't necessarily start to think about then being putting my comp nerd hat on

[00:05:33] compensation people theoretically want to

[00:05:36] Get people paid appropriately for whatever the goal is in the business

[00:05:39] And so there's a linkage right there where they're trying to drop somebody in to fill it as shortly as they can

[00:05:45] They don't really care. They're not measured. Do they stay over the long haul, right?

[00:05:50] In fact at some level you could argue I actually need turnover if the company's not growing

[00:05:54] I need to have some type of turnover

[00:05:56] Otherwise, I'm not recruiting for positions and that's just one example of where you know, you kind of have that

[00:06:03] Disconnect between businesses and you could go to comp and then you could go to things like business objectives

[00:06:09] You know when we look at it. Well, we've always been very insular and

[00:06:13] We've always thought that we were the only ones who understood these things and so therefore in the wrong hands quote-unquote other people

[00:06:22] It wouldn't be used effectively or appropriately right especially what we're talking about comp and market data or you know

[00:06:29] New hire statistics when it comes from recruiting

[00:06:31] well

[00:06:32] you guys don't understand because you know, you don't understand where we are in our business cycles or where people are and

[00:06:38] You know, we get so many wrecks

[00:06:40] We have a way of doing it where we put in a bunch of wrecks some are evergreen

[00:06:43] And so the statistics aren't gonna look right to you unless you know the context

[00:06:48] We see that all the time and it's not just an HR

[00:06:51] I mean people get territorial about their data for the exact reason you just said that

[00:06:56] You can't have the data because you don't know the context you would not you wouldn't know what you want to do with the data

[00:07:02] which

[00:07:03] Just perpetuates its lack of sharing. There's a couple interesting things that are there

[00:07:08] I think you know

[00:07:09] I know David you've talked about a lot of time the human and human resources or you know

[00:07:14] A lot of times we say, you know businesses don't hire people people hire people

[00:07:18] You know type of things, you know businesses don't sell products people buy products, you know, it's that type of thing and

[00:07:24] I think there's this dichotomy of what information do I give them right on one end, right?

[00:07:30] Because they if you know

[00:07:31] They're not gonna understand this and there's some validity to that because hiring managers, of course generally aren't hired

[00:07:36] I'm sorry not hiring managers line managers aren't hired to be you know

[00:07:41] Compensation professionals they have a day job that they're theoretically really good at. So what information do I give them?

[00:07:46] That's in context. So if I give them too much information, they don't know what to do with it

[00:07:50] But if I don't give them enough information you're not trusting it

[00:07:53] And so how do you roll that all up to give them really good context to make a decision and just

[00:07:58] Mentioned, you know comp planning is one of my favorite examples because you do it once or twice a year

[00:08:02] So how good is a line manager going to be at something once or twice a year?

[00:08:06] I do things every week that I suck at

[00:08:08] So how can someone really be good at something once or twice a year?

[00:08:11] I mean and you can't even train them for that

[00:08:14] There's no way to make them especially if it's a once or twice a year thing

[00:08:18] There's no way to make them an expert in it, but especially around where pay transparency is taking things

[00:08:25] We have to at least

[00:08:27] open

[00:08:28] their eyes a little bit to what this could be for them and

[00:08:33] Not make it an everyday thing, but at least make it a resource for them

[00:08:37] That they can check in on or they can look at every once in a while

[00:08:42] But it needs to be done with training and maturity

[00:08:46] Yeah, and the training I think the why sometimes because I think the how gets pushed pushed at them

[00:08:52] You need to do this for this reason. You need to do, you know your merit cycle because it's the right thing to do

[00:08:58] Theoretically, I'm kind of maybe it's a you know

[00:09:01] Rainbows in unicorns view but typically the line managers are you know have some smarts to them?

[00:09:06] So if you can explain to them why we're trying to do this to pay equitably and do things

[00:09:12] With a little bit of education then I think the how becomes a much simpler piece because they're like, oh now I get why

[00:09:19] Now let me dig in and figure out the how and I'm convinced that if you give them some context and just

[00:09:24] A little bit of workflow. They'll be able to figure that out because they're inherently smart

[00:09:28] Hopefully well a lot of times managers don't get that business problem

[00:09:35] they have to really understand that business problem though and

[00:09:39] To the extent of maturity, I think we've both dealt with a lot of situations where managers

[00:09:45] Have acted without having that level of maturity and I'm not saying this for all managers

[00:09:50] I know most managers do the right things for the right reasons

[00:09:53] But in the world of HR, especially when it comes to increases and things it becomes a very an emotional topic

[00:10:00] Not just for them, but their employees. So

[00:10:03] What can we do to make them?

[00:10:06] better

[00:10:07] It's not gonna be training. It's not gonna be you know

[00:10:10] It's not even that number of bats they get to use the data or to to be a part of it

[00:10:15] Well, I think we've talked in the past. I mean batting around this do people what percentage of people

[00:10:21] Which after we spoke last time I thought I'd throw this at you

[00:10:24] What percentage of people because I said I think most people want to be fair payers

[00:10:28] At the end of the day. So now I'm gonna put you on the spot and be like well

[00:10:32] Percentage of people do you think really truly would be fair payers if there weren't the bounds put in place and what people would be

[00:10:38] Like no, I just want to be a bad payer. I don't think it's about being a bad payer. I think it's about

[00:10:44] Giving employees what they want in order to be more popular to be happier

[00:10:49] So we put guidelines in place to constrain

[00:10:53] We give them market data to show and to demonstrate what what happens outside our boundaries

[00:10:59] But they run their business and they also because they deal with employees every day

[00:11:05] Yeah, they've got to be you know good boss bad boss on a shoulder, right?

[00:11:10] And I don't think anybody wants to be bad. I don't think anybody wants to be their best friend

[00:11:15] I mean, I'm sure many managers would rather be best friends with their employees

[00:11:19] but it's just not appropriate and so they've got to be they've got to do the right thing for the company as well as

[00:11:25] the employee and that takes a balance and

[00:11:28] If you ask me what percentage can be balanced I'll tell you it's a it's a normal distribution

[00:11:33] You know, you're gonna have tails on both sides

[00:11:35] You're gonna have people who are really bad at it and you can have people who are really by the book

[00:11:39] I'm gonna do it by the book and I'm gonna you know only give the right distribution the way the company tells me to

[00:11:45] No, I think that's fair. I think actually

[00:11:48] It's interesting. Can you say people, you know, as I mentioned, you know people hire people

[00:11:52] but I think you take it one step further people work with people and I think there's a little bit of a disconnect sometimes with

[00:11:58] Compensation, you know sending down the compensation planning merit matrix out of the ivory tower. That is compensation

[00:12:06] Not understanding that humans have to deliver that message and you know

[00:12:10] It's interesting when you get down to the bottom end of that merit matrix

[00:12:13] Mathematically, you're like I'm gonna give that person point five percent

[00:12:17] But when you actually have to deliver a message that point five percent of a small number is you know

[00:12:21] Not even a Netflix fee for the month right that that becomes difficult and how is a human

[00:12:27] Do you now relay that to a human and sometimes I think you know, that's the disparate piece of comp

[00:12:33] But I think comp sends that down and it's just on performance and this is the piece where

[00:12:37] Can you tie all the data together to talk about performance holistically and for pay equity?

[00:12:42] You know same job for the same work. How do you start to put that in place? So there's some

[00:12:46] Defense to that when you you actually give scores

[00:12:49] I think that'll help managers too if you can pull in business data from other places you can be like well

[00:12:54] This is this is these are some of the metrics

[00:12:56] The problem is you just highlighted a couple things that are comp focused that managers have no idea about like a merit matrix

[00:13:04] It's magic to them, you know comp ratio. They don't give a crap right?

[00:13:09] Explaining comp ratio to somebody means you have to abstract out a few layers

[00:13:13] You have to go back to market pricing and job descriptions and they go all the job descriptions are all crap

[00:13:18] Had you match the jobs where are the sources? Are they from our direct competitors, you know, blah blah blah and then you know

[00:13:24] Then you have to so they have to buy all that to get to

[00:13:27] Comp ratio and then you have to look at the different zones and say well

[00:13:31] There's only three zones or there are five zones and the okay. Well people are under men

[00:13:35] What are you gonna do about them?

[00:13:36] Are you gonna give them allow me to give an adjustment to minimum and people who are over-the-max who are giving?

[00:13:41] Lumps sums so you're abstracting when you talk about merit matrix. You're now abstracting rules guidelines

[00:13:47] philosophy

[00:13:49] Paying at market blah blah blah all that other stuff

[00:13:52] So to buy into even that merit matrix and even to get them to understand the guidelines that they're using

[00:13:58] Why am I using you know three to seven percent?

[00:14:01] For one group at one performance rating and then five to nine percent for another and then zero for another, you know

[00:14:08] I want to give everybody something. I want a peanut butter this and you're not allowing me to let me run my business

[00:14:14] Like what you hear so far make sure you never miss a show by clicking subscribe

[00:14:18] This podcast is made possible by salary comm now back to the show

[00:14:23] So there's a lot in there that we in comp especially in HR as a manager as well

[00:14:32] I find it that sometimes we're trying to build

[00:14:37] dogma

[00:14:38] Into our process in order to do the right things

[00:14:41] In order to do the right things but yet we're not at arming those people like I was mentioning before we're not arming them with

[00:14:47] The right information and insight to make the best job description

[00:14:50] To me and that's what I was saying with this quite earlier. There's all this potential information

[00:14:54] Yeah, you can throw it them

[00:14:56] So how do you distill that down into something that's meaningful?

[00:14:58] And I know you know one of the studies recently like I think a third of managers are doing this for the first or second

[00:15:04] Time right so not only do they not get to do it very often

[00:15:07] But you're gonna basically take all this comp speak and not have and try to translate it into human something that a normal human can

[00:15:14] Understand for somebody who's never done this and by the way the next time I have to do it again

[00:15:19] Assuming I'm still in this role is next year, and I have to go deliver a human message

[00:15:23] I mean, it's it's a really difficult

[00:15:26] Process that has to happen

[00:15:29] Although I still kind of sidebar. Why do we even do merit or increases once a year?

[00:15:36] I'm still a little boggled by that

[00:15:37] I mean, I think it's because we years ago had to I'm gonna show my age

[00:15:42] You had to go collect all the data do it and then you had to fax the payroll

[00:15:46] Company which many listeners probably don't know what a fax machine is

[00:15:50] they may but

[00:15:52] It's scary. I think it's an app on their phone exactly well, and it feels like a black box for people

[00:15:58] It's it's the perpetual black box of compensation

[00:16:02] With it because one of the things that we find too is that even working with the comp people

[00:16:06] I'm amazed at how often the comp people don't even understand those components that go with that

[00:16:13] So to your point of you know humans coming with the human message

[00:16:18] How do you even translate that if if you're the comp person and you don't even understand everything?

[00:16:24] Well, it's interesting the more data we get the more complex the merit matrix can be to your point David to the more

[00:16:30] Complicated it becomes so now you have a you know a lot of manager of a couple different units

[00:16:35] And he's getting handed down different numbers for different groups for different things and they're kind of like what the hell is happening here

[00:16:41] I used to be able to just get a spreadsheet that said 4% and email it

[00:16:46] And then magically it was gone, right?

[00:16:48] Well, and then you know if they have a global team, right?

[00:16:51] Well now the global team and I have a 4% for the US. I have a 9% for

[00:16:57] Singapore I have you know 7% for the UK

[00:17:01] Well, how do I figure out what's the right guideline for the right P?

[00:17:04] And can I blend the data or can it you know is this one process or do I do it by cut?

[00:17:09] What am I being asked to do and we've got to be very dead simple

[00:17:13] About getting to the right result for the employee and the manager

[00:17:18] While giving them the most expeditious as well as simple

[00:17:22] Interface and use cases that to get them to the right answer

[00:17:26] I think to quote someone very very famous, you know, because this is the type of stuff I read David

[00:17:31] So this is this would be really really important. Don't tell me you're gonna quote David Turecki. No, no

[00:17:41] What is it Cheshire cat said, you know, if you don't know where you're going all roads will lead you there

[00:17:45] So I think your point one like that David

[00:17:47] You know like sitting down and having a plan and a pay philosophy first that you can then and then try to get

[00:17:53] Somebody to you know read that in English. That's not from the comp department, right?

[00:17:56] Yeah, I was on a call the other day with some comp folks and I started counting acronyms

[00:18:03] And I've like I said, I've been around a long time

[00:18:05] So when I start getting wowed by the total volume of acronyms that we have you're like

[00:18:10] Well, how would you actually translate this?

[00:18:13] To someone that's a hiring manager that looks at this and you know

[00:18:16] I think the philosophy from some comp people is well everyone or everyone understands pay because they get paid

[00:18:21] No

[00:18:22] You know, so it must be simple right? Right and I think line managers sometimes get caught in the other trap

[00:18:27] Which is I get paid. So how complicated can it be and there's got to be

[00:18:32] some type of you know translation between those two well

[00:18:35] what's really funny about what you just said is when I worked at workscape and I was the

[00:18:40] basically the director of the talent management product line for product management and

[00:18:47] We got a new leader of our group and they said

[00:18:50] Can't we just put this stuff in a box and just say everybody gets the same rules everybody

[00:18:55] You know, we'll just start out and it'll be this and I said I've read about I don't know

[00:19:00] maybe a thousand client plans for things that they do and

[00:19:06] It goes beyond the name of the plan

[00:19:08] It goes into what the rules are and who's eligible for it and what operations are used and all that stuff

[00:19:14] And I said at the end of the day

[00:19:16] It's not just about the fact that there's just a bonus plan or not a bonus plan

[00:19:20] But there's a bonus plan. They may have a merit increase. They may have different

[00:19:25] hierarchies for the different pay elements and

[00:19:28] When you try and figure out is compensation simple and can we abstract?

[00:19:35] commonalities across companies and the answer is no you can try

[00:19:39] But what you'll find is is that everybody does things differently culturally but even within a company you're gonna have salespeople

[00:19:46] They're paid differently. You're gonna have executives. They're paid differently

[00:19:49] You're gonna have non-exempts for six exempts paid differently

[00:19:52] And so it's not even just about the company itself

[00:19:56] But also the constituent pieces of the company and how do you keep that simple for a manager?

[00:20:01] Who's making decisions across that?

[00:20:04] It's tough so I do think to your point that people are trying to say

[00:20:10] How do you make this easy and the answer is it's not easy because the business problem is not easy

[00:20:15] Yeah, I mean it's it's what makes some of us probably stay around comp and been a really really long time, right?

[00:20:21] Yeah at a high level. You're like the problem simple

[00:20:23] We're gonna pay the right people the right way at the right time done. Yeah

[00:20:27] Right now you start digging into it now you start digging into it, right and and all of a sudden it becomes highly complex

[00:20:34] Really fast and you know

[00:20:36] even it you know

[00:20:37] You go down the benefits trap hole and you want to start doing valuation or L tip value

[00:20:40] like it can be insanely complex and we we actually take some honor in that in comp and been on how complex and

[00:20:47] How smart some people can be about doing it and then you somehow have to realize you have to deliver that message

[00:20:53] Back up to 30,000 feet for somebody who actually I don't know if this will get edited David

[00:20:59] But doesn't give a shit about comp and been they just want to actually get through the process of

[00:21:05] Paying people the right way and get through and not have employees angry at them

[00:21:08] So they can go hit their actual metrics that they're actually measured on in their business as a manager

[00:21:13] Mm-hmm and and exactly and that's the problem is that getting on with what everything else?

[00:21:19] it starts with making sure your employees are happy and

[00:21:23] They're not going to be happy unless you give that focus and understanding to are they being paid fairly incorrectly and

[00:21:32] You know

[00:21:33] That's not easy. So but that's where I think I mean back to can they share, you know

[00:21:38] I do think the fairly the communication aside

[00:21:42] Can you add more data in so that you can?

[00:21:45] Basically defend why people are getting paid what and you know

[00:21:48] There's always going to be those amorphous thing

[00:21:50] You know client satisfaction and other weird things or you know, you don't want to make it so competitive

[00:21:54] I mean, that's the interesting thing about Merit Matrix

[00:21:57] It's not forced ranking but it is if you want to use it, right it can create a competitive

[00:22:03] You know area because obviously if someone gives all fives to all their employees the merit matrix doesn't really work the same way

[00:22:10] Well, actually it does you know how it does

[00:22:14] Because the fives get all the money and nobody else gets money, right? And so

[00:22:18] What did I say to client the other day if everybody is a five then nobody's a five

[00:22:23] Yeah, everybody's a five. Everybody's really a three, you know, so so you know, you have to balance it

[00:22:29] But even to that point though

[00:22:31] It is forced because on the performance rating scale to the to what you're going with us is

[00:22:37] That's a separate activity that's supposed to

[00:22:41] Encourage performance

[00:22:43] But unfortunately, it becomes a means to an end for pay right and loses its ability to influence the right things

[00:22:51] They're the right behaviors. And so that we get back to the merit matrix and we go well

[00:22:55] You know then we look at our fives and we go

[00:22:57] Well five is only getting between a zero and a five percent increase when our merit budgets five percent

[00:23:02] What the hell are we doing? The answer is you're giving a lot of ones twos threes

[00:23:08] Nothing because you're giving your fours and fives everything it's interesting

[00:23:11] I mean every I think that's the human piece of it to everyone wants to

[00:23:15] You know give everyone a beep be nice. I think it's the same thing

[00:23:18] I don't know how many clients to talk to day to say, you know, I want to pay

[00:23:22] Above median or above the average or above 50 whatever they want to phrase it

[00:23:26] And I'm not the brightest guy definitely not the brightest guy on this call

[00:23:29] But but not everyone can pay over the midpoint. I'm guessing about half and so

[00:23:35] How does how do you actually you know, most people want to do that and they can't and that's the same thing with performance

[00:23:41] Is you can't everyone can't be a five because you can't create the dispersion to actually keep the talent you want

[00:23:47] And I think it sometimes you tell people well if you don't do that

[00:23:50] You're gonna create this this people strategy that says I want to get rid of like for me when someone says they're all through all

[00:23:56] fives there's no differentiation

[00:23:58] So at that point your people strategy boiled down is I'd like to get rid of the good players and keep the bad players

[00:24:05] You know if you don't do that, right and they're like, well, no, that's not what I want to do

[00:24:08] I'm like, well inherently you're going to do that because they're gonna fall behind market. They just don't boil it down that way

[00:24:14] It's the intersection of the science of comp with the art of being a manager and

[00:24:19] That yeah that intersection be it really dangerous intersection and

[00:24:25] It's just it's tough. It's tough to navigate

[00:24:28] Well, I was gonna go to the extent of saying I agree with everything Sean said

[00:24:33] Except for the fact that we're talking about in this case just base pay

[00:24:36] In the case of variable pay I deal a lot of companies that say I'm gonna pay at midpoint

[00:24:42] We're sorry at the median apologize with the median for base pay

[00:24:46] but I'm gonna pay 75 percentile for performance on

[00:24:50] variable pay or total cash compensation because if we achieve our numbers

[00:24:55] then we pay out on variable pay and our numbers are targeted at the 75 percentile and so if

[00:25:02] We perform that person gets paid, you know more than the gap between

[00:25:07] base pay at 50th and total cash comp at 75th

[00:25:12] Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself man? I wish I could talk to David about this

[00:25:17] Well, you're in luck. We have a special offer for listeners of the HR data labs podcast

[00:25:22] A free half-hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast or whatever is on your mind

[00:25:29] Go to salary comm forward slash HR DL consulting to schedule your free 30-minute call today

[00:25:38] Sean what will be some of the biggest hurdles that organizations are gonna have and I think we've already talked through this a little

[00:25:44] bit, but what do you think some of the biggest hurdles that our listeners are gonna face when they're trying to

[00:25:51] Add in this other data and make this or break down these walls within their company

[00:25:56] Yeah, so I think it's like you say we've spoken about it

[00:25:59] I think is the ability to add in additional relevant data because we have access to all that data and ways to

[00:26:05] Concatenate all that data together put that in in some type of format that we can be smarter about the way that we you know

[00:26:11] Spend money and compensation and benefits

[00:26:13] But then the complicated part the biggest hurdle to me is and how do we translate that back to human for people who?

[00:26:20] Aren't living a breathing comp and men all the time

[00:26:23] And so

[00:26:24] Blow that back out to line managers and then looping it all the way back to the beginning of the chat

[00:26:29] Like how do you loop this back to talent acquisition?

[00:26:31] Like if you actually hire them at this point

[00:26:33] They're not going to stay because you're gonna hire them so far below midpoint or so far over that you're gonna have a pay

[00:26:39] Transparency issue like there's a lot of that data

[00:26:42] But I think the biggest hurdle is the tools are out there to kind of aggregate this data

[00:26:47] But what do you show and how do you communicate it and how to deal with change management are really hard questions

[00:26:53] But there are hard questions that other groups have faced

[00:26:56] I think we talked about this a little bit before like if you talk about finance or marketing or even you know supply chain

[00:27:03] They've done a really good job of being able to leverage other pieces of data across the organization

[00:27:08] To be able to pull into their businesses to be able to do better at what they do so that

[00:27:14] You know supply chain knows they're not gonna have enough people on staff to be able to get a specific amount of product out the door

[00:27:22] But they're waiting for shipments to come in

[00:27:24] They just don't have the people to get it off the trucks then they know they're at the chains are forecast

[00:27:29] They know they're gonna have to do something differently in the same way

[00:27:32] HR really needs to set the context for being able to leverage all this other data so that when they give it out

[00:27:38] It's not just oh by the way here

[00:27:40] I'm gonna throw it over the wall to you and I think that the core difference for me is finance or if you're talking

[00:27:45] Supply chain for line managers they see it day in and day out and we talked about that on being able to

[00:27:51] Something that's a once or twice a year thing. The Y is real

[00:27:55] I mean, let's be honest most most people go to work to get paid

[00:27:58] They may love what they do and everything else

[00:28:00] But generally they go to work to get paid

[00:28:01] so it's not a trivial subject that you're asking someone to be an expert on and

[00:28:06] And understand the why and communicate that so I think yeah the data and pulling in all the right data and fundamental it through

[00:28:12] That's where I think you could share and get along as from the beginning those expertise and how you do that

[00:28:17] And then you call it in, you know Salesforce dashboard supply chain dashboards

[00:28:21] Those get boiled up from who knows how many trillion rows of data into something meaningful

[00:28:26] But how do you then translate that to something? That's as personal as pay to a human that also has the right context

[00:28:32] I think that's the biggest hurdle like the tool the tools are there. There's a lot to be learned from the other groups

[00:28:37] I think that's a really good point and we have to mature as a group, right?

[00:28:41] HR we got to stop stop talking in different speak talk in English or in whatever language you speak

[00:28:47] But talk more plainly. Yeah, I think that that translation of yeah

[00:28:51] Comp and bend to human is is really good and almost giving up a playbook of

[00:28:57] How they can translate those items

[00:28:59] I do think things like total reward statements or some type of documentation to be able to show why you're getting paid this

[00:29:05] You know thing is important versus just I like you or I don't like you

[00:29:09] But isn't pay transparency gonna make this simpler because we're gonna have to translate it into language. Anyways

[00:29:16] Dude, you said it was 30 minutes. How long are we gonna go? That's like setting it up

[00:29:21] Like yeah, I'm gonna grab a beer and pull up a chair here on this one. Yeah

[00:29:27] This one wait before you answer that then let me just leave that as food for thought for everyone

[00:29:33] And we'll say yeah, thank you Sean

[00:29:35] It was a wonderful conversation today and we'll leave it at that and then we're gonna invite you back to talk about that

[00:29:50] John, thank you very much. Thanks as always Dwight. Thank you so much. Thank you

[00:29:55] Thanks for being with us Sean and we'll look forward to the extended episode given the bond that David just dropped a little bit

[00:30:05] Thank you all for listening take care and stay safe

[00:30:09] That was the HR data labs podcast if you liked the episode

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