Male Leaders vs Female Leaders I LeaderbookAI

[00:00:00] I'm Felicia Shakiba, and this is CPO PLAYBOOK, where we solve a business challenge in every episode.

[00:00:19] In today's episode, we're addressing a critical challenge in leadership, understanding how self-awareness and personal responsibility differ between men and women,

[00:00:30] and how these differences impact leadership effectiveness and impact on the organization.

[00:00:37] Jan, it is such a pleasure to have you here today. Thank you for being here.

[00:00:41] Well, thanks, Felicia. It's good to be here. Thanks.

[00:00:44] First, I want to address the elephant in the room, which is, let's say I'm a CEO of a multinational corporation.

[00:00:51] Why should I spend time listening to an episode on self-reliant leadership while I'm thinking about the stock market? What's in it for me?

[00:01:00] Well, that's a great question. I often get asked about the dichotomy of the whole description of a self-reliant leader.

[00:01:09] How can that be? How can you be self-reliant and be a leader of high-performing teams?

[00:01:14] I often say it really is about striking a balance between being squared away yourself, physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually,

[00:01:22] and creating that self-reliant and others so that what ends up happening is there's a shared duty of accountability across the teams, the high-performing teams.

[00:01:33] And, I mean, that's really what we all want.

[00:01:36] And we all know as leaders what we're fighting against every single day is disengagement, people that don't want to be promoted, people that have side hustles, people that want to work to live.

[00:01:51] And, meanwhile, we're trying to create a high-performing team of moving people from being compliant to committed to loyal.

[00:01:58] And so I think that might be a good reason to listen to this episode.

[00:02:02] Interesting.

[00:02:03] So I think that there's a lot of things that go on in an organization around leadership.

[00:02:09] And so some of those things are going to obviously impact the organizational performance and then ultimately the performance of you as a leader, as an individual.

[00:02:20] Yeah.

[00:02:21] Well, I think it'd be helpful to just describe, you know, over the last 10 years, I've led 25.

[00:02:27] And I've led two or three or four all-male expeditions.

[00:02:33] We've really tried hard to, you know, create a diverse group of people.

[00:02:37] And we always pair executives up with military veterans that are currently on active duty transitioning out or they recently have transitioned out into the business world.

[00:02:49] And we've been in places as far south as Patagonia, as far north as Alaska.

[00:02:55] And, you know, some pretty harsh conditions.

[00:02:57] And, you know, what we always see are dynamics and decision-making, communication, dealing with adversity.

[00:03:06] And what I've noted is when you have a lot of people that are all equally physically able, especially if it tends toward being mostly men, it gets really competitive.

[00:03:19] You know, nobody wants to help, you know, nobody, everybody wants to help each other, but nobody wants to be helped.

[00:03:26] They want to do it on their own.

[00:03:27] So men are a little bit more wanting to be independent.

[00:03:32] Yeah.

[00:03:33] Yeah.

[00:03:33] And, you know, a little, and it's always a little bit competitive, even though it's not.

[00:03:40] We know that we can only move as slow as the, I mean, as fast as the slowest person.

[00:03:46] So there's always that sort of dynamic.

[00:03:49] And when we have people that are all of kind of equal physical ability, I tend to see that the group doesn't come together as quickly and as strongly.

[00:03:58] It's almost like if there's a weak link in different areas, maybe physically or somebody's dealing with something they talk about around the fire.

[00:04:09] But when the group has to pull together to help people at different points, it seems to create the high performing team faster than not.

[00:04:20] So that's sort of the background and the context of, you know, what I've observed over the last 10 years.

[00:04:27] And typically, almost invariably, in the first 10 minutes, and there's always a leader.

[00:04:33] And on the first day, in the first five or 10 minutes, at some point, the leader turns around and goes, where is everybody?

[00:04:40] They've gone way too fast.

[00:04:43] And we always use that as a teachable moment in that, you know, when you're at work in hybrid environments and people are remote and we're communicating via video.

[00:04:52] How do you know how people are doing?

[00:04:54] Out on an expedition, it's easy to turn around and go, I'm going too fast.

[00:05:01] And meanwhile, at work, you know, we say we've got to do this by this deadline and we just get going.

[00:05:06] And it's hard to check in with people and to know.

[00:05:09] And again, people hide that.

[00:05:10] They hide it if they're struggling, just like, you know, they try to hide it out on an expedition, but you can't hide out there.

[00:05:18] And then, you know, this year we actually led an all-female except me.

[00:05:24] And there was one other gentleman from the UK that was on the trip.

[00:05:27] But we purposely set out to have an all-female expedition because we, you know, we just wanted to, you know, have that opportunity for that to happen.

[00:05:41] And as I put it together and including the guides who were women, world-class guides, by the way, I checked in with some mentors of mine that are women and, you know, people that are running content at LinkedIn and different people.

[00:05:57] And I said, hey, you know, what should be the objective of this?

[00:06:00] What should we try to figure out?

[00:06:02] And I talked to the participants as well.

[00:06:05] And they all said, we do not want this to, you know, we don't want to talk about women issues on this trip.

[00:06:11] We just want to talk about leadership and we want to talk about life.

[00:06:14] And it will be from a woman's perspective.

[00:06:18] So that was, you know, that's sort of setting the stage.

[00:06:22] And I'm happy to go whichever direction you want next.

[00:06:25] But I just wanted to kind of create the backdrop, if you will.

[00:06:30] I love that.

[00:06:31] And I love that the expedition wasn't about women's issues.

[00:06:36] It was about business issues from the lens of women.

[00:06:40] You know, were there differences?

[00:06:42] Were there similarities?

[00:06:44] And kind of unpacking that.

[00:06:45] How did this awareness manifest during the expedition?

[00:06:49] How can leaders best understand this dynamic in the workplace?

[00:06:54] We know we all, you know, as we get older, we get more experience.

[00:06:58] We have biases.

[00:07:00] You know, we do.

[00:07:02] And we make a lot of assumptions.

[00:07:04] And sometimes those can serve us really well because we can make decisions quickly.

[00:07:08] And that can serve really well.

[00:07:11] Sometimes jumping to conclusion and making assumptions

[00:07:14] can lead us astray.

[00:07:17] And so we're always trying, you know, in leadership, we're always trying to balance everything.

[00:07:21] Confidence and humility, strategy and tactical.

[00:07:24] Everything is a balance.

[00:07:26] And the one common thread of all the leaders I've worked with

[00:07:30] that everybody's trying to work on is to create more self-awareness.

[00:07:34] You know, if you were to ask a leader, a CEO, hey, what's the one thing you need to get better at every single day

[00:07:40] that's going to, you know, move the organization in the right way?

[00:07:45] They would all say, I need to be able to communicate better.

[00:07:48] Well, as we know, communicate isn't just, you know, one way.

[00:07:52] It's a lot of active listening.

[00:07:54] It's really reading the room, understanding.

[00:07:57] And, you know, what happened out on the expedition, you know, the biggest takeaway for me was,

[00:08:05] you know, and by the way, the participants were half veterans, half executives.

[00:08:10] The veterans were from three different decades, graduates from West Point, United States Military Academy.

[00:08:19] So really accomplished women.

[00:08:22] And on the executive side, you know, again, really accomplished.

[00:08:26] The average age of the participants on this trip was 49.

[00:08:31] And I think that was also a real difference maker.

[00:08:34] A lot of times with the veterans on the trip, they bring that number down a lot lower.

[00:08:42] But the takeaway for me was, you know, especially from the women that were a little bit older

[00:08:48] versus the women that were a little bit younger is how they struggled early days of, you know,

[00:08:53] how did they want to show up as a leader?

[00:08:56] And they would talk about, you know, what clothes did they want to wear?

[00:09:01] Where did they want to sit in the room?

[00:09:02] Who was going to be there?

[00:09:04] Did they want to speak up?

[00:09:05] Did they want to be quiet?

[00:09:06] Did they, what was going to be their posture?

[00:09:09] How are they going to come across?

[00:09:10] Because oftentimes most of the women on the trip were mostly in male-dominated companies and industries.

[00:09:19] And I thought about how I show up to meetings over the past decades, how men show up.

[00:09:25] And I'll kind of gesture here on video is, you know, you kind of walk in the room and you're like,

[00:09:31] okay, I'm here.

[00:09:32] What are we going to talk about?

[00:09:33] And no thought to, you know, how am I going to show up?

[00:09:37] How do I want to be perceived?

[00:09:39] What am I wearing?

[00:09:40] How am I sitting?

[00:09:40] What's my body language?

[00:09:42] Any of that stuff.

[00:09:43] And again, so all these people I work with that are focusing so much on self-awareness

[00:09:49] and they've got a long way to go, not just, Hey, here's how I am, but how here's how I'm

[00:09:53] perceived by others.

[00:09:55] Here's how I affect the room.

[00:09:56] You know, these women on the trip, it talked about, they've been doing that for decades.

[00:10:02] And it was just, I knew it in my head intellectually, it was the case, but I didn't know it in my

[00:10:07] heart and what it felt like to be someone that had to be that hyper aware.

[00:10:11] And it was just, you know, I just thought what a privilege, you know, to have that sort

[00:10:17] of insight as a male, you know, as a man.

[00:10:20] And I just wished, you know, I had had that experience, you know, 20 years earlier, I would

[00:10:26] have been such a better executive, such a better CEO if I truly understood that.

[00:10:31] And not just about women showing up in the meetings, but, you know, there's men that are

[00:10:35] quiet and lacking confidence.

[00:10:37] There's, you know, different, different groups to really pay attention to and read the room,

[00:10:43] you know, to be more effective and inclusive and, you know, to get, you know, basically

[00:10:48] to get buy-in and, and, um, inspire people.

[00:10:53] We'll be right back.

[00:10:56] Have you ever been to a webinar where the topic was great, but there wasn't enough time to

[00:11:00] ask questions or have a dialogue to learn more?

[00:11:02] Well, welcome to HR and Payroll 2.0, the podcast where those post-webinar questions become episodes.

[00:11:07] We feature HR practitioners, leaders, and founders of HR, payroll, and workplace innovation and

[00:11:13] transformation, sharing their insights and lessons learned from the trenches.

[00:11:16] We dig in to share the knowledge and tips that can help modern HR and payroll leaders navigate

[00:11:21] the challenges and opportunities ahead.

[00:11:23] So join us for highly authentic, unscripted conversations and let's learn together.

[00:11:29] Back to the show.

[00:11:32] Why do you think that is?

[00:11:33] Like if you were to just guess, why do you think women have so much more self-awareness

[00:11:41] coming into a meeting versus men?

[00:11:44] Well, I think, you know, what I see in male when it's all men, I mean, it's, it's definitely

[00:11:51] a different dynamic.

[00:11:52] You know, it kind of reminds me of a sales team, which isn't really a team.

[00:11:57] Led effectively, a sales team is a certain amount of cooperation and a certain amount of

[00:12:02] competition.

[00:12:02] I don't want to generalize.

[00:12:04] I don't want to stereotype.

[00:12:05] I don't, I definitely don't want to be perceived as mansplaining.

[00:12:09] But I think, you know, when you, when you have a group of men, especially out in the field

[00:12:16] or in different environments, it can be really, really competitive.

[00:12:21] And I think men are just kind of, I can be kind of oblivious to that.

[00:12:26] Um, whereas women come into the room and they're reading the room and trying to figure out where

[00:12:32] they fit in.

[00:12:33] And, um, you know, I'm, I know, you know, a great article that was written a while ago

[00:12:39] on the confidence gap did a great explanation of explaining how men and women differ in the,

[00:12:46] in the way that they'll approach, um, obstacles and opportunities.

[00:12:50] You know, I, I think it's been a little bit, um, on the survival mode, you know, so that

[00:12:55] they don't get talked over so that they, um, don't get misinterpreted that people don't

[00:13:01] make the wrong assumptions about them.

[00:13:03] I think they've had to go into these meetings with a lot more intentionality than I think,

[00:13:08] you know, we, and I'm speaking on behalf of men that we, we go into those sorts of meetings.

[00:13:14] Yeah.

[00:13:15] I mean, I can see that.

[00:13:17] I think in general, as a woman, I think I tend to over-prepare and I, I think, you know,

[00:13:23] it could be, you know, I'm just speaking from my own personal experience, but I feel like

[00:13:28] I've been highly criticized in that way.

[00:13:30] That's good.

[00:13:31] And, you know, I'm getting good feedback in my career, you know, as I move along.

[00:13:36] I just throw one thing in Felicia real quick is again, this is my opinion, my experience.

[00:13:42] Um, and, and it's a generalization.

[00:13:45] And so forgive me, but this is just my perception is in the people I've coached, I've seen the

[00:13:53] traits of perfectionism more with women than men.

[00:13:57] And that, and it gets perceived, I think as boy, do you, do you not understand the priorities?

[00:14:05] So what I mean by that is if somebody approaches everything from a perfectionist, then everything

[00:14:10] has to be a plus.

[00:14:12] When, as you move into the executive roles, you, everything can't be a plus.

[00:14:17] Some things are a plus, some things are B, some things are C minus and some things it doesn't

[00:14:22] matter if it's a barely passing D.

[00:14:24] And so, you know, where I found myself coaching people that have those perfectionist tendencies

[00:14:30] is we've got to really focus on the things that matter, prioritize.

[00:14:35] And the, and the word that I'll say is you've got to give yourself some grace.

[00:14:40] And it's funny.

[00:14:41] The only time I ever hear any leader described leadership is, you know, the component of grace

[00:14:48] is from women.

[00:14:49] I've never heard a man just, you know, use the word grace in describing, um, leadership

[00:14:55] traits.

[00:14:56] Yeah.

[00:14:57] My guess is that, you know, when I ask a question, I'm really allowing the other person to respond

[00:15:05] to the question and it's more inquisitive than asking someone to do something and looking

[00:15:12] bossy or demanding.

[00:15:13] We did have an expedition in the same area years ago, probably seven or eight years ago, where

[00:15:20] we had one of the strongest leaders that ever showed up.

[00:15:23] And it was a woman who had very little experience outdoors.

[00:15:26] In fact, all her gear was brand new from REI and she, you know, had no idea what she was

[00:15:32] doing out, out in the wilderness.

[00:15:33] And there was a lot of male veterans from special operations on the trip.

[00:15:38] And she was, she was the boss out there.

[00:15:41] I mean, she was the boss.

[00:15:44] And, um, you know, and at one point, you know, she was, um, climbing and a gentleman was

[00:15:52] belaying her, you know, keeping her safe.

[00:15:54] And I remember she looked, you know, put her finger in his chest and kind of said, you know,

[00:16:00] how don't F and drop me.

[00:16:02] You understand me?

[00:16:04] He just kind of smiled.

[00:16:06] And I went up to him later.

[00:16:07] I said, you know, Hey, how, how did that make you feel that, you know, that this woman

[00:16:12] said that to you?

[00:16:13] And he goes, I liked it.

[00:16:16] And, you know, she was just the boss.

[00:16:18] She was literally to this day, one of the best leaders we ever, ever had out there.

[00:16:23] And, you know, I always said what, what I observed in her was, and she hated the V word,

[00:16:30] the vulnerability word.

[00:16:31] But what I saw was a hundred percent confidence at the same time.

[00:16:36] She, because she was so confident, she could be vulnerable.

[00:16:39] And when she was vulnerable, it like gave her more confidence.

[00:16:43] And I'm like, this is like this superpower that she just uses confidence and vulnerability

[00:16:49] to keep building her, um, leadership influence over other people.

[00:16:55] And I, I mean, I've rarely seen it to the degree I did with her and it was just, you

[00:17:02] know, really awesome.

[00:17:03] And, you know, I've, I've had a lot of younger women I've coached and I'm, I've always thought,

[00:17:09] boy, it would be great for more women to see, um, this kind of leader as a role model.

[00:17:15] You know, she, she adapted in her own way, but she played by her rules.

[00:17:20] She didn't play by anybody else's and she was effective and she was a really high level

[00:17:25] executive in a fortune 200 firm.

[00:17:28] Yeah.

[00:17:29] That's incredible.

[00:17:30] I love that.

[00:17:31] I really do wish we could see that more often.

[00:17:34] That sounds amazing.

[00:17:35] It sounds like she really honed in on her strengths and leverage them to make her superpowers.

[00:17:42] Yeah.

[00:17:43] And she had a really varied background, law school, high, um, elementary school principal.

[00:17:49] Um, I mean, she just had really, you know, just a really broad levels of experience.

[00:17:55] Um, so I think that made her effective and interesting too.

[00:18:01] So self-awareness was really a key theme.

[00:18:04] It sounds like in the lessons that you took away from this experience.

[00:18:08] So how can organizations foster greater self-awareness among their leaders, especially in male dominated

[00:18:17] environments?

[00:18:18] Yeah.

[00:18:19] Yeah.

[00:18:19] Well, it's a great question.

[00:18:20] I mean, it is such a great question and I've never been asked that.

[00:18:25] And the meeting I just came out of today and almost every meeting I come out of is, you

[00:18:30] know, what it all boils down to, it all boils down to is discipline.

[00:18:35] You know, if, if you're a sports fan, you know, this over the past few weekends, there's

[00:18:40] been a lot of sports on and, you know, all the great teams have one thing in common and

[00:18:44] that is the fundamentals and, and they're disciplined.

[00:18:48] And it doesn't mean they don't have fun, but they're disciplined about the fundamentals.

[00:18:53] And, you know, I see very few organizations that are really disciplined.

[00:18:58] And the best way you can tell is if they're reactive versus proactive.

[00:19:04] If people are back to back in meetings, you know, I can just guarantee you it's, it's,

[00:19:10] you know, it's reactive.

[00:19:13] We've got to help people do the calendar exercise and help them prioritize and help them create

[00:19:20] white space where they have time to prepare for meetings, time to follow up after meetings,

[00:19:25] time to think about how do I want people to feel when I, when I'm in this meeting or I

[00:19:30] come away from it, what's the objective and the tone.

[00:19:35] And so, you know, the hard part of that is, you know, this is the long-term investment in

[00:19:41] people's self-awareness or development.

[00:19:43] On the other end is you've got short-term goals, quarterly, you know, on time, under budget,

[00:19:50] safely to a certain quality standard.

[00:19:53] And again, it takes discipline to be able to balance both of those.

[00:19:57] And the easy thing, the easiest thing is just be reactive all day long.

[00:20:03] You don't have to think.

[00:20:05] And, you know, so if the CEO is doing that, the president or the COO are just busy, busy,

[00:20:11] busy, it's going to be really tough for the rest of the organization, you know, to create

[00:20:16] that white space to really figure out how can they be more effective?

[00:20:20] No, I think that there's probably more than one way to do it, right?

[00:20:24] And I'm just wondering, do we need to design a training around how meetings work?

[00:20:31] Yeah.

[00:20:31] Well, I think, I mean, tactically, I think what doesn't get enough time spent on is how

[00:20:37] we're going to communicate.

[00:20:39] One way and two way communications.

[00:20:40] When and what needs to be communicated.

[00:20:44] Okay.

[00:20:44] We don't spend enough time talking about meetings, having agendas and minutes.

[00:20:50] And then we don't talk about how we're going to have healthy debate.

[00:20:56] And we don't talk about how we're going to establish criteria and process for decision

[00:21:03] making.

[00:21:03] And all those four things, communication meetings, debate, and decisions come together.

[00:21:10] And if you don't talk about that in the context of those four things, along with roles and alignment,

[00:21:17] it's really tough.

[00:21:19] I love that.

[00:21:20] I mean, the meeting I just came from was, hey, you've got, you know, some new roles and

[00:21:24] you've got this hybrid structure.

[00:21:27] You know, you've got to really talk through this so that people know the lanes that they're

[00:21:31] in.

[00:21:32] And, you know, part of that is, you know, always a discussion about how they come across.

[00:21:38] And, you know, and part of it, I think it's not just, hey, go work on your self-awareness,

[00:21:42] but I think it's a leader's responsibility, you know, to really help people coach it.

[00:21:47] And again, through questions, instead of saying, hey, you know, you interrupted Felicia in this

[00:21:52] meeting five times, don't do that, is to say, hey, how'd you think that meeting went?

[00:21:59] Did you catch yourself interrupting Felicia?

[00:22:02] How do you think that made her feel?

[00:22:04] And until somebody winces like this, Felicia, they go, ah, ah, she probably felt disrespected.

[00:22:11] You're not going to change people's behavior.

[00:22:14] I mean, if I just said, don't interrupt, you'd go, okay, I'll be better at that.

[00:22:18] But if you said, you know, how do you think that made her feel?

[00:22:21] Oh, man, I bet she doesn't even want to speak up anymore.

[00:22:25] I bet I, you know, I disrespected her in front of her peers.

[00:22:30] I made her feel small.

[00:22:31] Ah, you know, I probably quashed an idea.

[00:22:35] Ah, I feel terrible.

[00:22:37] Until somebody gets there with their self-awareness, it's really, I think, hard to move them.

[00:22:43] We'll be right back.

[00:22:46] I want to take a break real quick just to let you know about a new show we've just added to the network.

[00:22:52] Up Next at Work, hosted by Gene and Kate Akil of The Devon Group.

[00:22:58] Fantastic show.

[00:23:00] If you're looking for something that pushes the norm, pushes the boundaries, has some really spirited conversations, Google Up Next at Work.

[00:23:09] Gene and Kate Akil from The Devon Group.

[00:23:15] Back to the show.

[00:23:17] Yeah, no, I agree.

[00:23:19] I think that there's so many people that could benefit from having more self-awareness.

[00:23:24] But there's only so much we can do as coaches and leaders and peers to encourage that self-awareness.

[00:23:31] Well, I don't work with a single leader that's a great leader that's not working on this all the time.

[00:23:39] I mean, my oldest client is 72.

[00:23:42] And I would say I don't think that we've ever had a meeting where we weren't talking about, you know, how he's coming across to other people.

[00:23:51] And how, you know, he would like to communicate more effectively.

[00:23:56] And again, you know, that's an examination of your effect on other people.

[00:24:01] That's really what this self-awareness is.

[00:24:04] You know, we often go to meetings and we come out and we go, well, Susie said this and Brian said that.

[00:24:10] And we don't often come out of a meeting and say, you know, I wonder how I made Susie feel.

[00:24:16] I wonder how I made Brian feel.

[00:24:18] You know, and there's so much, you know, out on LinkedIn these days about, you know, the power of recognizing people.

[00:24:24] And, you know, again, as leaders, making sure people feel seen and heard.

[00:24:29] I think one of the big misconceptions these days is that there's so these big, giant differences in the generations.

[00:24:37] You know, I like the somebody once said the only difference is how they use technology.

[00:24:43] But I think, you know, no matter, you know, what generation, I think we all I mean, honestly, I think we just want to be seen and heard.

[00:24:51] And if if we're facilitating that, that's that's a heck of a step toward more self-awareness.

[00:24:58] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:24:59] I mean, you've really highlighted the importance of showing up with both self-awareness and responsibility.

[00:25:06] Right.

[00:25:07] As a leader.

[00:25:07] Well, I think it's being deliberate about it.

[00:25:10] I think, you know, when I think it might have been you that said it, Felicia, when you're on our show was, you know, the biggest reason we should be inclusive and diverse is that we don't have groupthink.

[00:25:27] And, you know, I think that's, you know, the biggest thing.

[00:25:30] And again, that groupthink.

[00:25:32] Why don't you want groupthink?

[00:25:33] Well, because you want healthy debate.

[00:25:35] Why do you want healthy debate?

[00:25:37] Because we want good decisions.

[00:25:40] And why do you want good decisions?

[00:25:41] Well, that's going to move the business forward.

[00:25:43] And if we have good decisions, that we'll have commitment behind those decisions.

[00:25:48] And and, you know, people will be engaged.

[00:25:51] So, you know, again, I think if you really want to grow your business, you've got to you've got to think about that.

[00:25:57] And we we had another guest on the show named Ron Carucci, and I thought he described it in really great terms, inclusivity.

[00:26:06] He said, you never want to have people ask two questions.

[00:26:11] And one of the questions is, does my you know, do I matter?

[00:26:15] Does my job matter?

[00:26:17] That's the first question.

[00:26:18] The second question is, do I belong here?

[00:26:21] Are these my people?

[00:26:22] You know, and I think, you know, if you're if you're working toward making people feel they matter and feeling they belong, I mean, you're doing the right thing.

[00:26:33] I mean, we are social animals.

[00:26:35] The worst thing.

[00:26:36] And the last stat I saw was 40 percent of people in the workforce feel like they're ignored by their boss.

[00:26:45] Well, that's socio.

[00:26:47] You know, that's emotional torture.

[00:26:49] We're social animals.

[00:26:50] We need to feel that, you know, people care about us, you know, that we matter.

[00:26:55] Our job matters.

[00:26:56] We belong.

[00:26:57] And, you know, that's a leader's responsibility.

[00:27:00] And, you know, they can all complain about young people quitting after two or three years.

[00:27:05] But chances are they're quitting because they don't feel they matter.

[00:27:08] They don't feel they belong.

[00:27:10] They don't feel there's a path forward.

[00:27:12] So I need I think we've got a we've got a lot of work to do to create that.

[00:27:16] Yeah.

[00:27:16] Yeah, I agree.

[00:27:17] It's crazy that you say all of that.

[00:27:21] I mean, the knowledge that you bring.

[00:27:23] It feels like so deep and rich around the leadership and the work that you've done.

[00:27:27] It's really incredible.

[00:27:29] Well, Jan, thank you so much for being here.

[00:27:31] I am so happy you've decided to be on our show.

[00:27:35] And thank you so much.

[00:27:36] Oh, thanks.

[00:27:37] For allowing me to be on yours.

[00:27:38] It's definitely an honor.

[00:27:41] If today's episode captured your interest, please consider sharing it with a friend and leaving a review.

[00:27:47] To learn more about how CPO Playbook can support you or a leader you know with executive coaching or organizational transformation, visit us at CPOPlaybook.com.

[00:27:59] Your support as a subscriber means the world to us.

[00:28:03] So thank you for tuning in.

[00:28:05] I'm Felicia Shakiba.

[00:28:07] Let's connect on LinkedIn.

[00:28:09] See you next Wednesday.