Fixing Tech's Gender Problem Starts With This

[00:00:00] I'm Felicia Shakiba and this is CPO PLAYBOOK, where we solve a business challenge in every episode.

[00:00:08] According to the Society of Women Engineers, only 26.8% of women engineers continue in engineering jobs

[00:00:22] compared to 41% of male engineers.

[00:00:25] Retention of female engineers poses a challenge due to various factors including hostile work environments,

[00:00:33] work-life balance struggles, inadequate support policies, pay in equity and feelings of isolation.

[00:00:39] Women might encounter sexism and exclusion in male-dominated workplaces, hindering their comfort and advancement.

[00:00:47] The absence of female leaders and mentors, coupled with societal expectations and caregiving responsibilities,

[00:00:54] can impede career growth.

[00:00:55] Unconscious biases and stereotypes may result in overlooked opportunities and unequal compensation.

[00:01:02] Exacerbating feelings of undervaluation and frustration.

[00:01:06] Today, I'm excited to interview Jenny Ibrahim, Software Engineering Manager at Google

[00:01:12] to tell her experiences on what managers can do to keep women in engineering.

[00:01:18] Jenny, thanks for being with us today.

[00:01:21] Thank you so much for having me.

[00:01:23] I'm very excited to be here today.

[00:01:25] I'm so excited to chat.

[00:01:27] Reflecting on your extensive 14-year tenure at Google,

[00:01:32] could you share where your journey began and what factors have contributed to your decision

[00:01:38] to stay with the company for such a significant duration?

[00:01:43] Yeah, I actually applied to Google two times.

[00:01:46] First time, I did not get in.

[00:01:48] And then second time, I got in.

[00:01:50] The first time, I had been very rusty on my coding

[00:01:54] and I had been doing more of the TL role.

[00:01:58] I was out of practice and rusty with all my coding

[00:02:02] and that's the primary thing that Google wanted in the interview.

[00:02:05] Two years later, I had all of that and I applied for the right position too.

[00:02:11] And so once I got in, I have stayed because of so many factors.

[00:02:16] I love the people that I work with.

[00:02:18] My coworkers are smart and googly as we like to call it.

[00:02:22] And I've been challenged by all of the projects I've worked on

[00:02:27] and I've had great managers for the most part who've supported me

[00:02:31] and helped me to get to where I want to be.

[00:02:35] And in the hard times, I have had hard times at Google.

[00:02:39] I feel like for me it was migrant and not wanting to give up.

[00:02:44] That's what pushed me to keep saying.

[00:02:46] But right now I'm super happy where I am.

[00:02:48] So I think I'll be there for a while.

[00:02:52] And based on your observations, what qualities or behaviors have you noticed

[00:02:58] in effective leaders and managers that could potentially support women

[00:03:03] in their careers and especially in the engineering role?

[00:03:06] From what I've noticed a lot of women and even minorities

[00:03:10] feel like they're insecure or have imposter syndrome.

[00:03:14] And having a manager that can see beyond that,

[00:03:17] that can see that somebody could have these insecurities

[00:03:21] but really looking at the data of what they have provided, what they do

[00:03:25] and helping the person even see that data.

[00:03:29] And that's usually the best way that I've seen somebody supporting the people.

[00:03:36] The data.

[00:03:36] Yeah, letting the manager help the person see that data,

[00:03:40] see the reality of things.

[00:03:42] If the person has been able to do such amazing work

[00:03:47] and there's a new project, if the person is insecure about,

[00:03:50] oh no, maybe you don't want to give me this project,

[00:03:53] the manager should see beyond that.

[00:03:55] And actually with the data that they know of how the person has done,

[00:04:00] be able to give them that project anyways

[00:04:03] and help them see that they can actually do it.

[00:04:05] Look at all of what you've done.

[00:04:07] I think you can do it.

[00:04:08] That's why I'm trying to give you this project.

[00:04:10] Understood.

[00:04:11] So having some clarity around really actually the actions that you've done

[00:04:17] or the impact that you've had in order to support you and grow

[00:04:21] and kind of play in the great area and stretch yourself.

[00:04:24] Yep, exactly.

[00:04:25] And how do you think managers can really cultivate an environment

[00:04:29] where women feel psychologically safe,

[00:04:33] especially in teams where they are outnumbered by men?

[00:04:37] And I see this a lot in engineering, also in biotech

[00:04:43] and obviously in more places.

[00:04:45] But where do you think managers really play that role in psychological safety?

[00:04:51] Maybe 10 years ago I wouldn't have known how to answer this question.

[00:04:55] But I've seen such amazing leaders

[00:04:58] and so I'll give you some examples of what they've done.

[00:05:01] One is I was in a meeting room with about 20 people,

[00:05:06] maybe 15 people and five people on the call.

[00:05:09] So around 20 people in the call.

[00:05:11] And we were in a heated discussion.

[00:05:13] Everybody was trying to say something.

[00:05:15] And I had something important to say

[00:05:17] that would have answered a lot of the question

[00:05:19] and nobody was hearing me at all.

[00:05:22] And so this manager who was on the video call

[00:05:26] was trying to say something.

[00:05:28] Nobody could hear him.

[00:05:29] The volume was low in the meeting room.

[00:05:31] Eventually when we heard him, he said,

[00:05:34] Guys, I want to hear what Jenny has to say.

[00:05:37] And it was nice that I had something important to say,

[00:05:40] but that made me feel supported.

[00:05:43] And after the fact he asked me, how did that go?

[00:05:46] Did I do that right?

[00:05:47] Should I have done something different?

[00:05:49] That I feel was one great way of explaining it.

[00:05:52] He also has in other times asked me before something

[00:05:56] to see if that email that he was going to send

[00:05:59] in support of women made sense.

[00:06:02] Another time I kept noticing that I was

[00:06:05] the technical lead of the team.

[00:06:06] I kept noticing that people on my team,

[00:06:09] after I would give an answer to a question they had,

[00:06:12] they would go and talk to my boss for a second opinion.

[00:06:16] And I brought this to my manager's attention

[00:06:19] and he's like, oh, okay, I got this.

[00:06:22] Is it okay if when they ask me that I say,

[00:06:25] if Jenny said it, let's go with that.

[00:06:27] And I loved it.

[00:06:29] I was like, yes, that sounds great.

[00:06:31] So I loved that he asked beforehand

[00:06:34] and he had a plan that he wanted to execute

[00:06:37] to make it right.

[00:06:38] And after a while, people stopped asking him

[00:06:40] because they knew that he would just point them back to me.

[00:06:44] That was one manager, another manager.

[00:06:48] He was my advocate.

[00:06:50] He was my sponsor.

[00:06:52] Anytime in the rooms where all those things happen

[00:06:56] where my promotions were discussed,

[00:06:58] where I wasn't there, he would advocate for me.

[00:07:02] And that just supporting me in all of that

[00:07:05] has been incredible.

[00:07:07] It almost sounds like the mom and dad issue

[00:07:11] where it's like, if mom said it, go with mom

[00:07:15] or vice versa, right?

[00:07:17] And I can't tell you how important that is

[00:07:20] to just what I know about raising kids.

[00:07:24] I think it's so important to see

[00:07:28] where leadership is aligned and supported.

[00:07:33] If my director part goes above me and asks my manager,

[00:07:37] I would feel like my word wasn't good enough

[00:07:41] for my director part.

[00:07:42] And sometimes it's not.

[00:07:43] And I'm good with getting challenged

[00:07:45] and I think you are too,

[00:07:47] but that challenge and those diverse perspectives

[00:07:51] should be heard with you,

[00:07:53] not necessarily with the person managing you.

[00:07:57] And I think that does play a critical piece

[00:07:59] to psychological safety.

[00:08:01] I see where you're coming from that.

[00:08:02] And I think that was a great example.

[00:08:05] You talked about or you mentioned mentorship.

[00:08:08] Many people lean into mentorship

[00:08:11] as the answer for retaining women.

[00:08:15] What's your perspective on this?

[00:08:18] Mentorship is great.

[00:08:19] It will help somebody feel camaraderie,

[00:08:22] feel like they're understood, that kind of thing.

[00:08:24] But that's not what's gonna move people forward

[00:08:27] in their careers.

[00:08:29] I feel like sponsorship is the way

[00:08:31] to help somebody get to that next level.

[00:08:33] Sponsorship is when somebody advocates for you

[00:08:36] in that room where decisions are made about your career.

[00:08:39] And that's what actually drives women

[00:08:42] to higher and higher places,

[00:08:44] not getting somebody to say,

[00:08:46] I understand how you're doing

[00:08:48] or give that which is important.

[00:08:50] But sponsorship I think is what needs to happen.

[00:08:54] And I think the way to start that organically

[00:08:58] is to have people being mentored by somebody who's higher.

[00:09:01] And once that person sees what they can do,

[00:09:04] that could be a way of moving that relationship

[00:09:07] from being a mentor to somebody who can advocate for you

[00:09:10] and say, no, no, no, it's not just

[00:09:13] that she's doing a great job and that's it.

[00:09:15] But no, she should get something

[00:09:18] and a new role or a new project

[00:09:21] or advance and get promoted.

[00:09:24] So somebody to speak up

[00:09:26] because they know what the person's doing,

[00:09:28] I think is how you get that sponsorship relationship.

[00:09:31] It's interesting because I think

[00:09:33] that many organizations don't know the difference

[00:09:36] between mentorship and sponsorship.

[00:09:38] It sounds like sponsorship is really

[00:09:40] around the succession planning process,

[00:09:43] looking at who might be the successors in the business

[00:09:48] and being able to advocate for those individuals.

[00:09:52] And that piece is really critical and important.

[00:09:55] Mentorship sounds making sure that you're feeling good,

[00:09:58] you're feeling confident, you have some growing to do,

[00:10:01] and here's a mentor that can help you get

[00:10:04] to where you want to be.

[00:10:06] There is a very key difference there.

[00:10:08] And I think both have served its own purpose,

[00:10:12] but sponsorship is what companies

[00:10:15] should really lean into more

[00:10:17] if they're looking to diversify their leaders

[00:10:21] in the business.

[00:10:22] Yeah, it's like, yep.

[00:10:23] And the way that somebody gets a sponsor,

[00:10:26] like you can't just assign people sponsors.

[00:10:29] That's not how it works

[00:10:30] because the person needs to believe in you

[00:10:33] and needs to advocate for you.

[00:10:36] So you can't just advocate for somebody

[00:10:38] because you are assigned that person,

[00:10:41] but there needs to be a way that a relationship is formed

[00:10:45] and the person gets to see what the sponsor gets

[00:10:48] to see what the person can do.

[00:10:50] And so can you tell me a little bit more

[00:10:52] about that relationship?

[00:10:53] Like, do you meet with your sponsor?

[00:10:55] How long is that person your sponsor for?

[00:10:58] Do sponsors sometimes come and go?

[00:11:01] What does that look like?

[00:11:02] Let's say my manager has five other people

[00:11:06] that are their peers.

[00:11:08] And those are all the people that go into that room

[00:11:11] and decide on who gets promoted.

[00:11:13] It would be great if it's not just your manager

[00:11:16] who says, oh, she's doing a great job.

[00:11:18] It would be great if two, three other people

[00:11:21] know what you're working on

[00:11:23] and can say, oh yeah, she worked with my team on that

[00:11:26] and she did an incredible job.

[00:11:28] If they don't know what you're working on,

[00:11:30] they can't say that.

[00:11:32] So whether you're meeting with those people

[00:11:35] to let them know whether they somehow know

[00:11:38] from their reports what you're doing,

[00:11:40] it depends on how you want that to happen.

[00:11:44] I prefer that I meet with the person

[00:11:47] that they understand how I'm doing,

[00:11:49] understand what I'm doing and what I'm working on,

[00:11:52] what I'm trying to achieve,

[00:11:54] get advice from them about how life is,

[00:11:58] like what I can do at work to get better.

[00:12:00] All of that stuff are ways to build that relationship.

[00:12:04] They're not necessarily gonna advocate for you

[00:12:06] just because I met with somebody

[00:12:08] doesn't mean that they're gonna advocate for me.

[00:12:10] But you have to build that relationship

[00:12:12] enough that they can do it.

[00:12:14] So they need to have the information

[00:12:16] about what you're doing.

[00:12:17] They need to know what you're doing

[00:12:19] and they need to believe in what you're doing.

[00:12:22] Got it, and that's a very different relationship.

[00:12:24] In your opinion, what steps could managers take

[00:12:28] to ensure that all voices, particularly those of women

[00:12:32] are heard and valued in workplace meetings?

[00:12:36] So in meetings, I notice a few things.

[00:12:39] One is women are interrupted more often.

[00:12:42] And so if you notice interruptions,

[00:12:45] that would be good to notice.

[00:12:48] Let's say one of the people, a meeting is interrupted.

[00:12:51] Easiest way is to say, hey, I wanted to hear

[00:12:54] what Jenny had to say, like the example you gave earlier.

[00:12:58] Yep, got it. Exactly.

[00:12:59] Yeah, it doesn't have to be like some big thing

[00:13:03] like it happened in that meeting,

[00:13:05] but it would be good to ask, hey, Jenny,

[00:13:08] what were you saying?

[00:13:09] Just to redirect the conversation back

[00:13:11] to that person who was trying to say this.

[00:13:13] And after a while of doing this a few times,

[00:13:16] people will notice.

[00:13:17] Another thing to notice is your bias.

[00:13:21] I teach Sunday school and I had put two groups together

[00:13:25] and I said, go pick your name.

[00:13:27] So it was supposed to be a two minute thing.

[00:13:29] They went off, they tried to find something

[00:13:33] and I turned to one of the teams,

[00:13:36] looked at the tallest boy and I said,

[00:13:38] so what did you guys decide?

[00:13:40] And I knew like I had gotten trainings

[00:13:43] and all of that about it.

[00:13:45] And it didn't hit me that I picked,

[00:13:47] and he had no clue.

[00:13:48] He looked at me like, why are you asking me?

[00:13:50] Ask somebody else who might have had more of a voice

[00:13:53] in the meeting or in that group.

[00:13:55] Knowing all of this stuff,

[00:13:56] I still pick the tallest kid

[00:13:58] because I felt like he would know,

[00:14:01] like people would look up to him.

[00:14:02] I don't know what my bias was,

[00:14:05] but I need to check my bias.

[00:14:06] And so think of those things.

[00:14:09] Are you biasing towards somebody or not?

[00:14:12] What are you doing?

[00:14:13] The other thing that I learned more recently

[00:14:17] is people from different cultures

[00:14:19] tend to interrupt or be interrupted more often.

[00:14:22] So Asian cultures predominantly,

[00:14:25] and this is all very generic,

[00:14:27] but they're more comfortable with more silent.

[00:14:30] Middle Eastern countries like where I'm from

[00:14:33] people interrupt because they're so excited

[00:14:35] and they're showing you their excitement

[00:14:37] and all of this by interrupting.

[00:14:39] Americans, there's usually one person finishes the speaking,

[00:14:42] then the next person speaks.

[00:14:44] So you have to notice all of that.

[00:14:46] Some people that report to me,

[00:14:48] I've asked them specifically,

[00:14:50] do you want me to call on you in a meeting?

[00:14:52] Because I noticed you're not saying anything,

[00:14:54] but I know you have a ton of information.

[00:14:57] Would you like me to ask you

[00:14:58] what you're thinking in a meeting?

[00:15:00] And then kind of do what my manager did for me.

[00:15:04] Ask ahead of time and then try something out

[00:15:07] and then after the meeting,

[00:15:09] check with them, see if that was okay or not.

[00:15:12] So culture plays a lot in it

[00:15:15] and your bias plays a lot in it

[00:15:18] and making sure that everybody is actually heard

[00:15:21] is another thing.

[00:15:22] And I don't think that should just go for women,

[00:15:24] but it goes for anybody.

[00:15:27] Make sure that everybody speaks

[00:15:29] is not interrupted, all of that.

[00:15:31] Absolutely.

[00:15:32] And there was one other thing that you made me think of.

[00:15:34] I did an episode with Todd Cashden on diversity

[00:15:39] and diversity of thought.

[00:15:40] And he was talking about this in meetings

[00:15:42] that leaders should always speak last.

[00:15:45] And I thought it was such a minor change,

[00:15:48] yet so impactful to reduce bias in a meeting.

[00:15:54] I think that there's a lot of different ways,

[00:15:55] but examples that you shared are fantastic.

[00:15:59] I'm loving what you've shared thus far

[00:16:02] and it makes a lot of sense.

[00:16:04] And I'm glad that you've actually gone through it

[00:16:06] to tell that story.

[00:16:07] So thank you for that.

[00:16:09] I'm wondering, have you ever encountered situations

[00:16:13] where women in technical roles seem to be undervalued

[00:16:17] or under-recognized?

[00:16:19] Yes, a lot of times.

[00:16:22] I've felt it and I've seen it.

[00:16:24] Some of the things that I've seen happen over and over

[00:16:28] is that they are asked to prove it again.

[00:16:33] So somebody comes in at a certain level

[00:16:37] and then you ask them to see if they need to,

[00:16:41] do you really know your stuff?

[00:16:43] Like double check and then ask them to prove it again

[00:16:47] to you.

[00:16:48] And then once they've done that,

[00:16:51] they now have to do it again the next person they meet

[00:16:54] or the next role that they take.

[00:16:57] And it gets annoying after a while

[00:16:59] that you have to keep proving, yes, I'm technical enough.

[00:17:02] Yes, I've got my leadership.

[00:17:04] Yes, I understand this or I understand that.

[00:17:07] I understand the business.

[00:17:09] Interesting.

[00:17:10] The other thing that I've seen as people post changes

[00:17:15] in one of the managers that I've had,

[00:17:18] he said, other people have told me

[00:17:20] that you've got great leadership.

[00:17:21] So now what I wanna see,

[00:17:23] this is as a new person reporting to him.

[00:17:26] So he asked me to prove that I had good technical ability.

[00:17:31] I did that at the end of it,

[00:17:33] he said, oh, I gave you the hardest project

[00:17:36] from the whole team, you did an incredible job with it.

[00:17:39] And then I told him, okay,

[00:17:41] do you think that I could be a technical lead?

[00:17:44] And he said, well,

[00:17:45] I'm not sure about your leadership ability,

[00:17:48] which he said he understood.

[00:17:50] So every time I would do something,

[00:17:53] he needed me to prove something else.

[00:17:56] So changing what you need the person to prove is not good.

[00:18:01] So have certain standards that you apply across the board.

[00:18:05] And then I prefer having a sheet

[00:18:08] that I share with my reports,

[00:18:10] where we say, okay, these are the things

[00:18:12] that I'm measuring you on.

[00:18:15] You've got that rubric and you're talking

[00:18:18] to every project that the person does,

[00:18:21] what they're doing,

[00:18:22] fulfilling those rubric that you said.

[00:18:24] I think that's a classic case.

[00:18:28] It's so interesting that you share that

[00:18:30] because from the HR function,

[00:18:33] from like the people functions perspective,

[00:18:37] these are the reasons why we put leveling guides in place

[00:18:42] and competencies and behaviors

[00:18:44] that are needed at each level, right?

[00:18:46] And then competencies or specific skills

[00:18:51] and abilities by function, right?

[00:18:54] And so those create those standards.

[00:18:57] I do feel like we might do all of this work,

[00:19:01] but when a manager doesn't share this with their team,

[00:19:05] doesn't pinpoint or point to it in behavioral expectations,

[00:19:10] at least maybe only around performance time

[00:19:13] or succession planning,

[00:19:16] I think it's a missed opportunity.

[00:19:18] And the way that you've shared it and explained it,

[00:19:22] it's the fact that you're leveraging the work

[00:19:25] that we're supporting you with from an HR's perspective

[00:19:29] and integrating it into your business and your team

[00:19:34] to help them keep in the back of their mind

[00:19:38] or top of mind that these are the expectations

[00:19:42] and they are given to everyone by standard.

[00:19:45] And so that does in turn decrease bias in the workplace,

[00:19:50] which is a great example.

[00:19:51] I think that you've shared.

[00:19:52] I didn't know that you did that.

[00:19:54] I think that's such an aha moment for people in my function

[00:19:59] that allows us to think how else can we better support

[00:20:03] the business rather than just giving you a blank sheet

[00:20:07] to managers of this is what we're looking for,

[00:20:09] but actually going a step further

[00:20:11] and having the managers really drive these behaviors

[00:20:14] with their team.

[00:20:15] So it's a wonderful example of thank you for sharing that.

[00:20:17] From your perspective,

[00:20:20] what advice would you offer to women

[00:20:23] who find themselves in environments

[00:20:25] where they are the minority on their team?

[00:20:29] I think a lot of the times,

[00:20:30] and I think this is just at least the technical arena.

[00:20:35] I feel like when we come into work,

[00:20:39] we're a little bit intimidated

[00:20:40] or at least I felt intimidated a lot of the years

[00:20:44] because they all look very confident

[00:20:47] in what they're talking about.

[00:20:48] So they must be right.

[00:20:51] And I've had to learn over the years

[00:20:53] that I need to look at data

[00:20:55] and look at data of what I've done

[00:20:58] and does this match up with what other people have done?

[00:21:01] Benchmarking yourself, yes.

[00:21:04] Because a lot of times we look at the confidence level

[00:21:08] and if somebody looks so confident,

[00:21:10] I'll just take that they know way more than I do.

[00:21:14] That's one of the ways

[00:21:15] I don't actually think it's a good idea

[00:21:18] to compare yourself to somebody else,

[00:21:20] but at least looking at that data of how you're doing.

[00:21:24] And if you looked at that

[00:21:27] as somebody else's accomplishments,

[00:21:30] what would you say to them?

[00:21:32] Do you think that they've done a good job?

[00:21:34] Do you feel like they need to be worried

[00:21:36] about that next project that they're given?

[00:21:39] Probably not because they've done such an amazing job.

[00:21:42] This was advice that was given to me

[00:21:44] when I was in my co-op program at Northeastern.

[00:21:48] They told us, don't apply to a job

[00:21:51] where you're fully qualified

[00:21:52] because you're gonna be bored.

[00:21:54] So it'll be bad for you because you're bored

[00:21:56] and you won't be happy.

[00:21:58] And it would be bad for the company

[00:22:00] because they don't want somebody who is bored in the job.

[00:22:03] So go for a job when you're applying

[00:22:06] if you're fulfilling everything in that role,

[00:22:08] don't take it.

[00:22:10] But there is a Hewlett Packard internal report

[00:22:13] that says that men applied to a job

[00:22:15] when they meet only 60% of the qualification.

[00:22:19] But women apply only when they meet 100% of them.

[00:22:22] Oh, wow, interesting.

[00:22:23] They never gave me that statistic.

[00:22:25] It might not have even happened.

[00:22:27] That report might not have been done

[00:22:29] when I went to school.

[00:22:30] But what they told me set the bar

[00:22:34] for the expectation of what everybody does.

[00:22:37] So to me, it's important to understand

[00:22:41] how men react to different situations

[00:22:45] and how women react to those same situations,

[00:22:48] to know kind of level set

[00:22:51] so that you're not going in very shy

[00:22:55] where they're all going very confident.

[00:22:57] The same thing with even European and American,

[00:23:01] the ways that Europeans and Americans do things,

[00:23:04] Europeans don't brag about themselves.

[00:23:06] They let the data speak for themselves.

[00:23:10] If you're European and you're gonna apply in America,

[00:23:13] that's not gonna work very well for you.

[00:23:15] You need to understand how everybody else is doing things

[00:23:18] and kind of work to be looked at the same way.

[00:23:23] And so I think the same thing works for women.

[00:23:26] I need to understand how men go into a situation.

[00:23:30] If they're gonna be very confident

[00:23:31] about what they're saying,

[00:23:33] even if they don't know what they're talking about,

[00:23:35] I need to understand that,

[00:23:37] I need to understand how I'm being perceived

[00:23:39] in that same situation.

[00:23:41] What strategies do you think companies could explore

[00:23:44] to attract a more diverse range of candidates

[00:23:47] for technical roles?

[00:23:49] I think setting good expectations and job descriptions,

[00:23:53] so they're not asking for 110 things.

[00:23:57] If you're asking for the very specific things

[00:24:00] that you need, that's good.

[00:24:02] Don't make it such a long list.

[00:24:04] Another thing is if you've got great teams

[00:24:07] that are psychologically safe,

[00:24:09] that are welcoming for the women that you do have,

[00:24:12] that by itself attracts people because people talk.

[00:24:16] And so they're gonna say, look at what I've done,

[00:24:19] like what my company does.

[00:24:20] I just told you about all of the amazing managers

[00:24:23] that I've had.

[00:24:25] If I'm telling these stories just to anybody,

[00:24:28] like that tells people this is a great place to work.

[00:24:33] That manager is a great person to work for.

[00:24:35] That attracts people already.

[00:24:38] So if you're looking in the right places,

[00:24:41] if you're looking where women will go,

[00:24:43] do women usually go to hackathons?

[00:24:46] If they do, then great.

[00:24:48] If you're looking for women and they don't go to hackathons,

[00:24:51] look for where they would go.

[00:24:53] And then the same thing with just making sure

[00:24:55] that your groups are psychologically safe

[00:24:59] and welcoming for the people that are there.

[00:25:02] If they're not, work on that.

[00:25:04] Make that better before trying to get more people in.

[00:25:07] And I think to your point,

[00:25:09] if there are companies having events like a hackathon

[00:25:15] and there aren't very many women going,

[00:25:18] they need to probably think about why they're not going.

[00:25:22] What is it about the event

[00:25:23] that is making women question whether or not

[00:25:28] they should participate?

[00:25:29] Is that fair to say?

[00:25:31] Exactly.

[00:25:32] Maybe ask for some feedback

[00:25:34] from the women in your organization

[00:25:37] that probably might help.

[00:25:38] Yes, yep, yep.

[00:25:40] And Jenny, my last question is,

[00:25:43] if you were to suggest first steps,

[00:25:45] what could managers do to get started

[00:25:48] in retaining women in the workplace?

[00:25:50] Make sure that you're an advocate

[00:25:52] for the women in your area.

[00:25:53] Notice when their ideas aren't being heard

[00:25:57] and amplify them so that they feel heard

[00:26:00] even if it's not possible

[00:26:05] and build good psychologically safe teams.

[00:26:09] Don't let bad behaviors just go by

[00:26:12] or little microaggressions go by and slide.

[00:26:16] Make sure that the women actually feel supported

[00:26:20] and heard and welcomed.

[00:26:24] And I know that we've been talking about women,

[00:26:25] but I think everything that we've shared

[00:26:28] and talked about here today

[00:26:29] really applies to any minority.

[00:26:32] And that includes white men

[00:26:34] that might be a minority in their teams, right?

[00:26:38] It could be any of those minority classes, et cetera.

[00:26:43] So Jenny, thank you so much for your time today

[00:26:47] and your insights and sharing your experience.

[00:26:50] Thank you so much for being here.

[00:26:52] It's been such a pleasure.

[00:26:53] Thank you so much Felicia.

[00:26:55] This has been so fun for me

[00:26:57] and it's always fun to talk to you.

[00:27:00] Thank you.

[00:27:02] That's Jenny Ibrahim,

[00:27:06] Software Engineering Manager at Google.

[00:27:08] If today's episode captured your interest,

[00:27:11] please consider sharing it with a friend

[00:27:14] or visit cpoplaybook.com to read the episode

[00:27:18] or learn more about leadership and talent management.

[00:27:21] We greatly appreciate your rating, review

[00:27:23] and support as a subscriber.

[00:27:26] I'm Felicia Shakiba.

[00:27:28] See you next Wednesday and thanks for listening.