98 50 Shades of Pay

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Join us on a journey where we unravel the latest trends, tackle burning questions and explore

[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_01]: innovative strategies that are shaping the future of compensation all with a cup of coffee in hand.

[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, welcome everybody to Comp and Coffee. I'm Ruth Thomas, your Comp and Coffee podcast custodian.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_02]: It is summer season and I know hopefully many of you are enjoying downtime with family and friends

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and some sunshine and hopefully also some time to read. So we thought it would be a good time of year

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_02]: to do an episode discussing some of our favorite books. So that's what we're going to do today.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So whether you're lounging by the pool, hiking in the mountains or just relaxing at home,

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_02]: we've got some great book recommendations for you to keep you company.

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And to help me with this discussion today, I have Jen Faris, Principal Solutions Consultant

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_02]: at Payscale. I'll let Jen introduce herself in a moment. Welcome Jen and Liz Sheffield,

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_02]: my partner in crime on the podcast who is Manager of Content Marketing and also

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_02]: helps to produce the podcast. So welcome Liz. Okay, so without further ado, Jen,

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_02]: as you haven't been on the podcast before, do you want to introduce yourselves,

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_02]: tell folks about what you do at Payscale and then maybe how your summer's shaping up so far?

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks Ruth. I have been at Payscale for over 13 years and I've done lots of

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_04]: different things in the business from implementations to comp consulting and managing our

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_04]: professional services team but I now get to work with our revenue focused teams and our

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_04]: customer success teams as well with our clients across all platforms. In a prior life, I was

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_04]: an HR Compensation Practitioner so that's the lens through which I see the world.

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Comp is, I won't say my deepest passion but it is a big passion of mine and I also teach courses

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_04]: for world at work. So living and breathing comp every day in terms of the summer and

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_04]: shaping up well so far. We are in the pinnacle of summer in the Seattle area. This is the time

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_04]: of year that I remember why I live here and it's beautiful. It's beautiful and we're enjoying every

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_04]: ounce of sunlight that we receive and no rain. Is it raining? Well, there's been a toss but we've

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_02]: needed it so it's okay. Well Liz you're also based in Seattle. Just remind folks about what

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_02]: your job is and how you're enjoying the summer in Seattle. I will jump on the summer sunny

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Seattle bandwagon with Jen loving the Seattle weather. This is the time of year that we don't

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_03]: really leave because it's nice and I am the manager of Puntit Marketing so if folks are

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_03]: reading ebooks or quick guides or listening to the podcast, my team and I help get those out

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_03]: the door to help our clients, customers, prospects and anybody in the community.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_03]: And side note I was an English major so I was thrilled by the idea of this podcast. Thank you

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_02]: for letting me barge my way in. Well I know we talk about books quite a lot Liz anyway in our

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_02]: sort of day-to-day interaction so I was an English major too so that's why I'm passionate about

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and still on my to-do list to write a book so we'll see. Okay so we've got a few books

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_02]: lined up to talk about. I think Jen we're going to start with one of yours first. I think you've

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_02]: got a couple that you're going to talk us through. For the listeners we're going to link all the

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_02]: books in the episode notes that we talk about so don't worry if you didn't get the whole

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_02]: title or the whole name you'll be able to find that there but we're just going to share

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_02]: a few books that we found tell us what you know we found most intriguing about them and

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_02]: see what you think. So Jen the first recommendation you had was the myth of the nice girl achieving

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_02]: a career you love without becoming a person you hate and that's by Fran Hauser so I was

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_02]: intrigued by the title and why you choose it especially because I always think of you

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_02]: as a nice girl or a smiley girl but that word's very emotive I know in the workplace while

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_02]: in life as well I find nice a very emotive word so tell us why you chose that book and how you found it.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah that title rude caught my eye because in the past I have gotten feedback

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_04]: when I was younger in my career about being too nice and being too being too smiley frankly and

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_04]: that you know using too many exclamation points and things like that and so the title cut my eye

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_04]: and as I dug into the book Hauser really talks about as women were taught that we must choose

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_04]: between being nice and being strong leaders and she challenges that idea she talks about how those

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_04]: two things truly aren't mutually exclusive and that you can and you really should use your niceness

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_04]: as a strength right bringing your authentic self to work while maintaining your boundaries

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_04]: and your assertiveness and that those things can be done in conjunction with each other

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_02]: but you said that of the two books that you suggested we talk about today that this one

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_02]: potentially wasn't your favorite book so tell me more about that. Yeah it wasn't I wanted it to

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_04]: be I really wanted it to be my favorite book but it wasn't um I felt like for my own personal

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_04]: growth it fell a little short I as I'm reading books and love reading I like to devour them I can

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_04]: get through a couple books a week if they're really good and in doing that my goal is always to

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_04]: uncover new strategies or uncover new ways of thinking or to view the world through a different

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_04]: lens right and so the the way that Hauser presents the the book and the different strategies she brings

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_04]: to the table they weren't necessarily fresh perspectives to me there were things that I

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_04]: had discovered on my own or via mentorships throughout my career so the strategies and guidance

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_04]: felt more second nature to me which is why it wasn't you know my favorite book.

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_04]: So would you recommend it to others to read? I would I really think it could be a great book for

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_04]: women who are maybe younger in their careers or still navigating how to balance being

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_04]: direct and decisive while continuing to be authentic and kind and empathetic at work.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_04]: One thing that I did really love in the book and I've used this stat that she brings up

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_04]: she talks about overcoming imposter syndrome and that's something that I personally have

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_04]: struggled with in my career and I continue to struggle with it at times and she brings up

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_04]: this stat that is men are more likely to apply for a job if they meet about 60 percent

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_04]: 60 percent barely above half of the qualifications listed in the job posting

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_04]: while women tend to apply only if they meet nearly 100 percent of the criteria

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_04]: and I know that I've heard this stat before and we hear all the time about gender differences in

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_04]: confidence and the risk taking in the workplace and how that has such a profound effect on so many

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_04]: things and Hauser uses that to highlight the challenges that women face when it comes to

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_04]: self promotion and career advancement and that really that really hit home for me

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_04]: so it wasn't just Liam Duncan in terms of the entire book but there were definitely pieces

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_02]: that really resonated. Yeah I've read a couple of books that cover a similar theme as well I think

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's always good as you say particularly for maybe women starting out their career just to

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_02]: be aware of the fact you know this men and from Mars women are from Venus and how that plays out

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_02]: in in the workplace you know we are often very different in terms of how we show up and

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_02]: the competencies that we display and I think becoming comfortable you know it's almost the

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_02]: opposite of the old lean in mentality you know where we all women had to be like men kind of thing

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_02]: it's like we should be able to be be like women and celebrate the competencies that we have that

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_02]: we naturally bring to the table and you know and also have very meaningful place in the workplace

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_02]: so but it sounds interesting so you ever think used to being too nice Liz?

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes you I can't believe you would ask

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_03]: yes no I was actually and yeah a lot of what you were saying Jen about the imposter syndrome

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_03]: and that stat I regularly try to remind myself of you know what we I've always felt like okay I

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_03]: have to be 110 percent before I try something or say that I can do something in that stat just

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_03]: even you know it's not related to work it's just to remember that we can jump in with not having

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_02]: everything so. Okay Jen so you also offered another book leading without authority by Keith Ferratzi

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and in your own words you say you're obsessed with it so tell us more about that. I love this

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_04]: book you both need I mean ask all to read this but this needs to be a company book that we all read

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_04]: because it is incredible I just could not get enough of this book so essentially what this

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_04]: book is about is influencing and motivating others regardless of your formal position in an organization

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_04]: and the way that he proposes doing that is by building relationships and collaborating

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_04]: across organizational boundaries so he talks about creating value for others to gain their support

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_04]: and engage in ultimately what he calls co-elevation. So that sounds interesting what does yeah what does

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_02]: co-elevation mean? I really didn't perk your ears a little bit to hear that um you have to read the book

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_04]: 19. No come on tell us. So co-elevation in short is helping others succeed well at the same time

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_04]: and achieving your own goals so it's essentially partnering with somebody to co-elevate forming a relationship where

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_04]: various individuals you know throughout the organization so Liz you and I could co-elevate

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_04]: in first I'm identifying what it is that I can help you with right I'm creating value for you

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_04]: first and I'm being uh straightforward and upfront with you about what I'm looking to gain out of the

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_04]: relationship as well so by addressing your needs and goals and offering my needs and goals and then

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_04]: demonstrating how we can mutually benefit from a co-elevation relationship from collaborating

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_04]: together that's where that's where the magic happens and doing this cross-organizational

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_04]: right you know cross-departmentally can be incredibly powerful when people who are not in

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_04]: leadership positions traditionally feel empowered to do this because those are the people who also

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_04]: can get work done right that's work happens not just here but everywhere it should be happening at

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_02]: all layers of an organization. That sounds interesting particularly if you think about

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_02]: the environment we have here at PayScale where we're all working remotely and I know we've been

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_02]: working very hard for the last 12 months or so in terms of breaking down silos between functions

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_02]: in order to kind of like get stuff done so that sounds like a great approach but how is um

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Verazzi's approach to leadership different from say traditional more hierarchical models?

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah so it really talks about influence versus positional power and he does you know he's

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_04]: not just focused on individual contributor level folks and then Bill Kee gives example of coaching

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_04]: that he has done for leadership teams and for different directors of very well known organizations

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_04]: or VPs of well known organizations so he's not just honing in on the IC level he's just saying

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_04]: that your title doesn't matter right it's the influence that you have over people that is where

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_04]: leadership is driven from uh horizontal relationships rather than again that vertical chain of command

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_04]: he focuses on proactive problem solving at all levels of the organization and then ultimately

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_04]: promoting a more agile and adaptable organizational culture to your point Ruth especially with

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_04]: being remote being agile and being able to adapt to things more quickly but also having

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_04]: relationships when you're not in a building with multiple floors where you can say I need to go down

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_04]: to floor two and talk to Liz you still need to have these relationships and they're incredibly

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_04]: important to drive you know the ultimate organizational goals. So how would that show

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_02]: up practically in terms of like building and maintaining networks within an organization how

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_02]: would that happen underneath the faratsi money? Yeah he gives a lot of good tips

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_04]: regularly reaching out to colleagues across different departments setting up check-ins I think that

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_04]: one of the things he mentions is a gentleman that he worked with who has a list and it's

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_04]: not an inauthentic thing to make it a practice to have a list of people that you are constantly

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_04]: reaching out to on a regular cadence right that that can feel inauthentic to be checking a box

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_04]: and it is if you're just checking a box but if you're having a list

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_04]: to hold yourself accountable to maintaining relationships sometimes that's what you have

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_04]: to do in the busy role that we live in right offering help and support without expecting

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_04]: immediate return so he talks about building value for others before you even expect them to help you

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_04]: and that sort of ties back as well to the nice girl book right it's bringing your authentic

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_04]: helpful kind caring genuine self to work and leaning into that using using that as a strength

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_02]: great and yeah but yeah go all sounds great sorry was were you gonna add some more there

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_02]: no I I get I could talk for days about this go on

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I would say it sounds a lot like I see you showing up in the workplace already though because I know

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_02]: you're very good at networking across the organization and and that help offering

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_02]: help and support is something that I've seen you do a lot of the time but yeah some some

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_02]: interesting thoughts there and what's kind of what was your big takeaway like what did it make

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_02]: you go right I'm gonna go and do that in the workplace now so I think it's doing it and

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_04]: in an intentional way so and I think that I am naturally good at making relationships and

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_04]: being a helper and reaching out and trying to do what I can for many people but that often

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_04]: and I know this about myself leads to overextension right it can't be everything for everyone

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_04]: all the time and so for me it's about prioritization and figuring out

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_04]: where it makes sense and how to intentionally do it in a way that makes the makes the most

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_04]: impact for our organization right where can I lean in the most to help pay scale

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_04]: and make the greatest leaps sounds great I'm intrigued I'm definitely intrigued by the book what about you

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Liz I am as well Ruth and I it's I love kind of the combination of these two books that you've

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_03]: read Jen that sort of they toss back and forth together like what you were saying is the

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_03]: the nice girl that's yes we can be that and then still this other approach to how to be

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_04]: showing up authentically in health yeah there are some really nice tie-ins there is some

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_02]: unexpected overlap between the two books definitely well thanks for sharing your thoughts on those

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_02]: two right Liz it's your turn now um one of the books that you chose was daily practice

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_02]: sorry daily practices of inclusive leaders a guide to building a culture of belonging

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and it was published by Eddie Pate are we going to say P-A-T and Jonathan Stutz so can you tell us

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_03]: what attracted you to this book first of all yeah in a prior life I facilitated a diversity

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_03]: workshop once a quarter so it's a professional and personal interest of mine and I also worked

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_03]: with Eddie Pate while I was at Starbucks and my husband back in the day took a course at the

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_03]: University of Washington from Dr. Pate so he actually was the first who was like oh my goodness

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Liz Eddie so we were excited to get this on our bookshelves and it it just really it

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_03]: delivered in terms of those daily practices and how to show up as a leader supporting the EMI

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_03]: so can you give us a synopsis of the main themes yeah so it's divided into two sections

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_03]: and the first is really around sort of foundations of inclusive leadership there's they approach it

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_03]: in terms of daily wisdom daily courage and daily heart look at that we're talking about heart

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_03]: again this is like showing up with it you know an open heart and then they have competencies seven

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_03]: that they've outlined related to being an inclusive leader and then the second part is a list of kind

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_03]: of these are the daily practices so here's how the why and then there's hell so that's related

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_03]: to everything about HR you know in terms of attracting, retaining, engaging and even

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_03]: when talent leaves whether how is D and I focused in that arena. And were there any key recommendations

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_03]: that resonated with you? Well yes so I'm one for a story I have to share this story because it

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_03]: makes me cultural confidence like we think that's just kind of basic maybe in terms of D and I but

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_03]: it's so easy to miss and they they were both Microsoft for a time and they share an experience

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_03]: where Microsoft was releasing the competitive iPod product when and they named it Zune

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_03]: kind of catchy name lo and behold Zune is a word in Hebrew that is like a swear word so

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I think like they did a nice job of weaving in their experience to illustrate this this really

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_03]: does matter it's just a nice to have this is something but people that only are looking at

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_03]: business impact this has business impact it's not only the right thing to do. Key recommendations

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_03]: see I'm like Jen I'm like you on the set of book I could talk about this book for days I'm going to

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_03]: try and keep it free. Two things that I loved and will take away is they just continuously

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_03]: continuously referred to daily inclusive practices related to D and I being pebbles that leaders

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_03]: are dropping into the organizational culture and the ripple effects and I just thought that was

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_03]: really powerful I think some of us you know it would be great to have sweeping change but that

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_03]: isn't always possible but just every little thing that you're doing is happening full effect

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_03]: loved that and then they talk about the danger of a single story and really resonated with me

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_03]: as well so we might be thinking oh I've worked with someone from X culture or I've worked

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_03]: with somebody with this type of diversity in their life and then everybody that we meet that

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_03]: shares that similar aspect is going to be the same way and and that's just not the case

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_03]: so you know there's just I thought it was a catchy phrase honestly the danger of a single

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_03]: story that you can't just take one story and apply it to everybody. Sounds interesting yeah

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I've definitely had some that zoom example in my role as being like HR leader when I was especially

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_02]: when I was based out in Asia Pacific and I was working for US firms and you know one of the things

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_02]: we I would struggle with every time was when they would try and insist that it was summer

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and we could all wear a summer wardrobe to work and I had to try and explain that clearly

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_02]: summer wasn't at the same time in all parts of the world and you know it was like basic things like that

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_02]: were quite a challenge sometimes to get people to understand like cultural answers and the cultural

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_02]: diversity so now you you were mentioning the acronym because there's a few acronyms around

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_02]: for DEI so we talk about DEI sometimes we talk about DEI and B so diversity equity inclusion

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_02]: like diversity equity inclusion and belonging they have the acronym ID and E tell me about that

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_03]: yes so they inclusion diversity and equity

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_03]: and they put inclusion at the front because they feel like that's like everything needs to

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_03]: start from inclusion that's that's the foundation that you're building everything else

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_03]: which actually made a lot of sense to me I'm you know I've whatever for decades it's that DEI so

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_03]: it's the little bit of a tongue twister for me but I appreciated that they kept all those three elements

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_03]: in there but just shifted the order of them so yeah again right being open to a new idea I felt

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_02]: that was yeah well I think from from the perspective that they're looking at it

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_02]: they are very much focusing on the inclusion element of DEI aren't they you know diverses

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_02]: obviously you know getting getting different types of people in the door equity for me is all about

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_02]: the processes that you're putting in place to make sure people have opportunity that they need

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_02]: inclusion is making people feel like they belong and I think you know the feeling is for

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_02]: many years we've had diversity tactics but we've missed out on the inclusion element and

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_02]: that's you know becoming more and more important today but quite a hot topic because there's been a

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_02]: bit of a debate recently with recent activity from the Society of Human Resource Management who

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_02]: decided to remove the E from their quinim and that caused quite a flatter in the HR communities

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_02]: across LinkedIn any thoughts on that Liz you were following it any sort of thoughts about

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_03]: how that played out well I actually I took encouragement from it actually because there was

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_03]: such a reaction right and a robust dialogue I'll say that came out of so part of why I was also

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_03]: excited about this book is that you know I think people see headlines as DEI and I you know going

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_03]: away is it you know is it forgotten so both that reaction to the shirm removal of E from their acronym

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_03]: as well as like you know Eddie and Jonathan are writing books like so it's this is still a conversation

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_03]: thank goodness we're having and it's not going away so even though it was a bit of a kerfuffle

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_03]: there in the social media around the shirm decision I think it's positive right it's dialogue so

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah I mean and if you missed that we kind of put out a statement here at PayScale saying we still very

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_02]: much believe in equity I think we did a LinkedIn post on it and explaining you know why we believe

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_02]: the E should stand on its own in the acronym because we feel we play a very important part

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_02]: in our role here at PayScale in helping to ensure equity not you know equity in the workplace

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_02]: equity of opportunity and also pay equity so if you missed that go and find PayScale on LinkedIn

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and you can see where we ended up as an organization in terms of our view on that though well PayEquity

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_02]: we've mentioned so that's probably a good segue to the book that I'm going to recommend and this

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_02]: is a book I read a couple of years or 18 months ago but I just reread it when I was on holiday

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_02]: recently in Italy and it's a book called Fair Pay by David Buckmaster so it initially came out in 2021

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_02]: probably not a surprise for the listeners that I chose a book on fair pay obviously PayEquity

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Fair Pay is my hot topic and favorite topic and we've had quite a few thought leaders bring out

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_02]: books on the whole subject matter of PayEquity but this one I really loved and if you are

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_02]: looking for the one book to read on fair pay I would definitely recommend this book so David

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Buckmaster interesting you mentioned Starbucks Liz David was a conversation expert he worked at

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Starbucks he's also worked at Nike KFC and Pizza Hut I now know David because I reached out to him

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_02]: after I read his book and told him I loved it and we've now engaged in a thought leadership

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of backward and forward he spoke at PayScale Conference in 2022 and if you've attended any

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_02]: of the World at Work webinars that are held on equal payday so that's a day when PayScale comes

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_02]: together with in theory our competitors in the field of PayEquity but we all stand unified on

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_02]: equal payday to talk about how PayEquity is progressing both in the workplace and in

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_02]: society and David is the emcee on that so he's emcee to that webinar for the last two years so

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_02]: if you want to see David in action you can probably go to World at Work and and find that webinar

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_02]: but yeah he's just a great all-round guy this book really takes on the crisis of income equality

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_02]: when he I think at the time when it came out 21 we would just post Covid there'd been

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_02]: obviously a lot of income disruption happening at that time a lot of noise particularly in Seattle

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_02]: or Starbucks area around minimum wages and so this is kind of where he leans into in this book

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_02]: talking about some of the problems that we have with our current compensation models

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_02]: as well as demystifying pay practices so I think as a book if you read the front cover

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_02]: it's got quite ambitious goals it says how to get a raise how to close the wage gap and how to build

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_02]: a stronger business so it's quite a lot he's trying to do in one book but I think it does

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_02]: reflect how PayEquity is an individual personal issue a societal issue and a business issue

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and he manages to cover all of that off and it's not really just a book for HR or comp or people

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_02]: like us who are interested in pay I would think if you're a business leader and you want to really

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_02]: get a handle on why fair pay and pay equity is important I would recommend that you read this

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_02]: book and then even as an individual if you're wanting to understand how pay is set within your

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_02]: organization and how to negotiate you know your own pay then reading this book is a must

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_02]: because he leans into covering lots of different things including you know how companies

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_02]: build their pay structures he does a whole explanation of the technicalities of how we

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_02]: measure pay equity from the controlled and uncontrolled pay gaps and covers issues around

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_02]: minimum wage increases that I mentioned even pay for gig workers because he starts to think

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_02]: about the future of work and how fair pay might look so I just loved the whole tone of his book

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_02]: it was written with a very humorous personal narrative style and gave lots of great real life

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_02]: examples so you could easily relate so you definitely don't need to be a comp person

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I think why it resonated with me the most is there's one quote I wanted to read out and it's

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_02]: traditionally people in jobs like mine have understood their role to be trackers of the

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_02]: market trends we pay less attention on how we can influence the trajectory of the marketplace

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_02]: itself and that really resonated with me because if you've heard me speak before you'll

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_02]: know that I am very passionate about the responsibility we have at pay scale in terms

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_02]: of what we do so we collect thousands millions of points of market data but we have a responsibility

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_02]: in you know sharing that market data and making sure people understand how to achieve fair pay

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_02]: through using our data I also think that we have a responsibility in terms of understanding

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_02]: that the market data itself is biased because it reflects pay within organizations and you know

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_02]: we're trying to do here at pay scale is help organizations achieve fair pay so ultimately

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_02]: the market data that we're posting will be fairer pay as well so I think that was the real moment

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_02]: where I was like you know we're talking the same language here David so that was why I was passionate

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_02]: about this book but I know a lot of people struggle with the term fair pay a lot of people

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_02]: particularly suggest thinking of it as an operating mindset rather than kind of some utopian state that

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_02]: we're all trying to achieve so it was kind of very inspirational it's a very funny read as well so

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I definitely recommend if you're wanting to read that one book about fair pay this is the one

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_02]: that I would recommend so have I have I tempted you Jen or Liz to read that book? Yes yes your work is done

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_03]: okay I love it like you took on a lot as you said from looking at those three perspectives and then

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_03]: doing so in an engaging way right like a lot of people maybe say oh compensation what a boring

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_03]: topic I mean that's not what we say but yeah citing that he's managed to convey the excitement

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah I think recognizing that pay is a very personal issue for many people and particularly

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_02]: you know for certain segments of employee populations pays you know really can drive

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_02]: their lifestyle and and and not just like lifestyle in the cutesy way of lifestyle it can whether

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_02]: they're managing to feed their children and you know but you know kind of take care of their

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_02]: their families and things like that so yeah it was really heartfelt read back to heart again

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_02]: there's a lot of heartfelt stuff going on here today great well thank you all for joining me Liz

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and Jen have you got anything else on your reading list next doesn't need to be workbook or

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_04]: fiction book and what's on your next list Jen? Yeah um we have uh so Tillis's point earlier

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_04]: in Seattle uh in the between the months of July and September October you're not allowed to leave

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_04]: like those are just the rules of engagement for living here and so we do not a big fan of road

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_04]: trips and not really a car driving road trip gal but it's what we do in the summer and so

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_04]: with the kids um I've been trying to I have a seven-year-old and a nine-year-old and

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_04]: I've I like to learn when I read right like sometimes I do like to turn off my brain and just

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_04]: dive into a romance or a mystery or a thrill or something but I have found historical fiction

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_04]: books for children for any parents out there you guys the I survived series we listened on the

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_04]: way home last night from eastern Washington I survived at the battle of Gettysburg through the

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_04]: eyes of a slave it was amazing it was a great it was a great read and um so I have a lot of these

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_04]: audiobooks downloaded I survived audiobooks and for myself um becoming mad up secretary is on my

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_04]: list another sort of historical fiction um about uh Francis Perkins a woman who served in president

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Franklin Roosevelt's cabinet during the Great Depression so that one looks fantastic and I

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_02]: will report back great I'm about you Liz what's on your bedside table uh I just read a book

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_03]: called The Seven-Year Slip which was a little bit of time travel uh yeah somebody's going back

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_03]: a fourth between seven years prior and current day very good and I'm also reading a book by

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Claire Pooley I think she's over on your side of the pond Ruth and I can't remember it's a good oh

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_03]: it's about commuting so people it's yeah it's really good these are um yeah I after having read

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_03]: a lot as an English major I am one who I totally read for fun these days and these books are

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah well thank you both for coming on the podcast today and sharing your reading list

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_02]: hopefully we've inspired you listeners um maybe you're going grab a copy of one of those books

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_02]: we're not getting commission on any of those books it's not an advert um but we will make sure we

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_02]: list all the books we talked about today in the episode brief um if you enjoyed listening to us

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_02]: let us know uh you can email us at coffee at payscale.com and if you liked the format of the

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_02]: episode and you think this is something you'd like to do again or even if you want to come

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_02]: on and join us on the podcast and talk about some books that you've read then do let us know

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_02]: thank you very much for joining us and goodbye