Empathy in Action: Tracy Layney on Career Growth, Mental Health, and Building Supportive Work Cultures

[00:00:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Hi everybody, this is Bob Goodwin, present of Career Club and welcome to another episode of Career Club Live.

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_00]: If you are not familiar with Career Club, we would encourage you to go to career.club.

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_00]: We are just rolling out a new program on resilience, radical resilience. It's tried tied to your true north values.

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_00]: We believe there's a very strong ROI case to be made to help your company become more productive, more effective, retain more employees, and drive higher client satisfaction.

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So, again, please check us out at career.club.

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Today I am so happy to be welcoming our guests. We've got Tracy Layney who is the EVP and Chief HR Officer at Levi Strauss in company.

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I bet you've heard of them. Tracy's a renowned leader in HR, known for commitment to mental health, employee wellbeing, and creative in an empathetic workplace culture.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_00]: In this episode, she's gonna share some insights on Levi Strauss and mental health initiatives, the evolution of their well-being programs,

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and how empathy shapes leadership and company culture. Tracy also suggests strategies for navigating uncertainty, ensuring a support for environment in all organizational levels.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_00]: We're excited to hear from her Tracy with that welcome.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, Bob. So nice to be with you. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It's so nice to see you. I saw my saw you were with Chicago and you're very good on vacation. I hope you had a great time.

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I did, yes, it's summer time. So, always good to get away and we'll take you to talk more about that because I do think taking time away is really important to mental health and staying refreshed and ready to come back.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So happy to be back.

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Now awesome. So, as this is our one today, let's just help people get to know you a little bit first.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a few icebreaker questions, just a couple minutes. So, starting off where are you born and raised? Where'd you grow up?

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I grew up in Houston, Texas.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Where's your accent?

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It's long gone. I went to college in Philadelphia and I always stayed.

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And I stayed a few years after college. So, I always stayed as seven years in Philadelphia, killed whatever remnants of a Texas accent I had.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And then in the late 90s, I moved here to the San Francisco Bay area, which I've managed to somehow stay in for the last 25 plus years.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So, California is now home, but I am Texas at heart for sure.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, if you go back to Texas, can you fall into a draw?

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: A little bit. Yeah, certainly when I'm around my family, it'll come back for sure very slightly.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And my husband and I've been together since we would gosh, we don't just this is your 18.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And he actually remembers when I had a little bit of an accent and I used to say, yeah.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So, there has even like proof in my house that someone had was, you know, had a problem with that.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a documented event that's good.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you mentioned Philadelphia where'd you go to school?

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I went to the birth of Pennsylvania, so a speaker through and through a go-pend fighting clickers, oxymoron, but love it.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_00]: There you have nice mention to your husband and we talked a little bit before we got started that you've got a sign going to college.

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_00]: You might just a little bit about your family?

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Sure. So, yes. So, I very much held it to your heart, Jason, and yeah, we've been married 27 years together for over 30.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And as I mentioned, when we were in our mid-20s, we moved her to the Bay Area, managed to stay here this whole time.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Which has been great. This is very much home.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And we have one son who is 19 and is about to start his sophomore year at the University of Miami.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, we have a small family. We have a cat, so the cat's also, if you have my make an appearance, you never know, but yeah, we've managed to have this great life.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So, we're getting college and we are now sitting our son up to college which is hard to believe.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_00]: There you go. We're getting this dance. I'm going so far so good.

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's hard. It's hard. I don't know if people, you know, I think people start to talk about it more.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, it's a huge life change when you've had these person or people that you've been raising in your house and your family and the other

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_01]: changes and you want them to thrive and he's thriving which makes it much easier.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_01]: But, certainly, it changes the family and dynamic and it's a big life transition.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I think one that, you know, maybe we don't talk enough about, like a lot of life transitions.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_01]: We talk about how people have kids and then when there's kids slunch, you know, it changes things.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, I think, you know, part of what I think about a lot in my role is how we support people at every life stage.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And certainly this last year has been a huge transition for us.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and we'll get into the small when we start talking about mental wellness kinds of issues.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, we talk about bringing your whole self to work.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_00]: That's part of it, right? And, you know, we're going through life changes and so, like, whether I wanted or not, that's part of what's coming to work with me.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not super quick, but do you like kind of painting a picture of your career?

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Or, you obviously, you're somewhere near the pinnacle of your profession.

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_00]: But, but how did you get there?

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I would definitely say it was not planned, right?

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I, when I was in college, I had no idea.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I probably didn't even know what a Chief HR officer was.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I was honest with you honest. I had a lot of people don't.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So, I was really lucky. I grew up in very working class household and was able to go to this amazing school in responsible in the past.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, but I was English major. I thought I was going to go to law school.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I briefly sort it would maybe be a community-losher professor, but certainly thought, I came maybe law school.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And then when I graduated, I worked at a law firm and no offense to my lower friends in the world.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I have many of those, but I quickly realized that was not for me.

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, I had, it was really fortunate that someone I've worked with actually the whole time I was at Penn.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I was the professor's research assistant and to call this courses. He's still there actually at Penn.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm all. Really referred me to this small consulting firm that specialized in organization and changed strategy work.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And they were looking for someone to come and do a two year analyst position.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was just by, you know, getting a series of luck and events that I fell into this role.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And I absolutely loved it. I worked in Center for Pledge Research.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_01]: There's still around there in Philadelphia and now also in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And loved it. And the work was very much focused on organization strategy.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and I thought this is great. This is what I wanted to do.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but it was a two year position. You were then supposed to go off and go to grad school or do something different.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's when Jason and I decided to move to California.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_01]: My mom had to settle down here so we had a little bit of a landing spot.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And we came here and, um, you know, again through a series of events. I eventually ended up at the press for the House Coopers.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Like also when their organization changed strategy practice, I loved it.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I did that for several years. I think consulting is a great way to start a career actually.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I advise and people on that a lot if they're considering that because you get to try a lot of different industries.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_01]: You get to try a lot of different sometimes types of consulting.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But I really fell in love with this idea of thinking through how, how you think about a town strategy or an organizational strategy and how that supports the business strategy.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. And so I did that for a couple years at P.W.C.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I actually was thinking about this starting a family. The one big downside of consulting at least back then was said it was a lot of travel.

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_01]: We quickly travel and that was, you know, the TARD when you're thinking about having children.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I actually took my first internal role, believe it or not, at least by stress.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I followed a colleague internally inside the company and that's where kind of large scale transformation technology implementation.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I got to go work on Australia, which was really fun and we spoke color ANZ, Australian New Zealand business.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was great. However, this was 2003 or early 2004 and Levi's was in, you know, a lot of financial trouble at the time business wasn't great.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And we had to make the hard decision to cancel the project I was working on and I got laid off from Ellison Co.

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Levi's Charlottes and Co. And but I tell that story a lot internally even because I really believe if I hadn't been laid off from Levi's, I would not be this cheap age office right now.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes that happens, I think that happens a lot actually that was something bad happens.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_01]: It's certainly unexpected that it opens up doors that allow you to pivot and so I was found myself laid off but gaping, you know, the gap which is literally down the street from Levi's in San Francisco was hiring.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And I went to gap and that was when I really pivoted into HR so I really had this organization strategy background, which is amazing learning ground for HR specifically.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_01]: But that was my pivot and then I had this fantastic career 10 years at Gapping where I started just senior manager, I left a senior vice president supporting old Navy international businesses like got to do HR for HR.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I got to do all sorts of things and that 10 years span had my son and then you know really had an amazing amazing run.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But I also got really burned out in my last role there and I made the really hard decision to leave the company just from pure burnout which we can talk more about because I talked quite openly about that as a significant mental health challenge.

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And I took us to the battle. I just said, I have to get I have to recover from this burnout and I took us to the battle. My son was nine and I was worried I missed a lot of his childhood, especially the pride my last year.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And I took a year and then you know as often happens, I think when you take time to focus on yourself good things come and that's when I got my first chief HR officer role at Shutterfly.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And I did a great company focus on helping people share life joy. I did that for five years.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I did a big acquisition there to the company private and then leave I was called and it felt very full circle right after having worked there many years before and I started in 2020.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But I also started in March 20, March of 2020 and so you can imagine what was going on in the world then and.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't do everything exactly so that's a little bit about me and the crew I've had that takes us up to date and yeah, and there have been a leave I saw this four and a half years and certainly been.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing time to be here and also challenging time as we've all been going through these less.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think it's I promised you this would be an organic conversation so you've opened up a few doors down this hallway that I want to kind of go through.

[00:10:25] One is.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Like a non planned career, you know, that what's your dream job? I don't know like I don't know right and particularly for young people or parents if young people might be listening to this.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_00]: For me just like you did it's more a test for negatives so you did the law thing like I don't think that's for me.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_00]: But you haven't been to the buffet table of like let's available and then your professor did a huge favor for you and introduce you to something else.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's cool that resonates right and you started going down a road that works how would you counsel people with kind of non linear or, you know, kind of more portfolio careers.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I think a lot about this now because I do counsel and coach a lot of young people and I have a young person right in my house.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't you know, I think as a lot of people in college they shouldn't know what they want to do.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think we all know now that careers. I mean, I think the beauty of a long we all are going to work much longer because we can and I think if you're doing great interesting work we should and.

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_01]: There should be lots of opportunities right I don't think it's linear.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But we all know that the jobs that are going to use this in five years on even exists now little in 15 years and 20 years, right? So I think it's been for me it was more it has been sort of something that I get it's for sure.

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Also something the positives what really feels good and I think the thing I did that and I would coach others to do is say yes a lot.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Because you know I did a very broad swath but even in that sort of 10 years, trying to get out there. I probably changed roles or expanded a role or something about every 18 months to two years right I mean because that's especially when you're at that stage of your career.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_01]: People come and say well can you take this on or can you do this project or would you go do that and and I think the answer to say yes as much as you can because then you learn you learn and this is what jazzy me this is what doesn't jaz me this is you know.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to focus more here and one is learn this more and I think that's actually probably this.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_01]: To having a really fulfilling career because I do think it's for most I mean I don't even know if linear's you know that common anymore maybe never really was.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that there's so much opportunity to learn and grow and push yourself and challenge yourself and and think about different industries think about different.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Different specialties you know I think there's just there's so much opportunity and I think that for me it's been mostly what I would again I would I tell people is.

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Say yes and try new things and nothing is when they have for certain nothing is forever nothing is permanent and even things that you find are for you will certainly enhance your experience in yourself.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So as you know we work a lot with people in career transition and.

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_00]: You know I really would love to get your honest take on this is that as much as we want to say non-linear.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_00]: It seems like companies want people have done this exact job before they've been in the exact industry doing this exact thing for 20 years which is sort of the antithesis of what we're talking about.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_00]: How do you talk to hiring managers to tell an acquisition team personally how do you think about you know potential versus pedigree I guess.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah I think it's I think.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean as somebody who you know I understand and emphasize we're hiring managers are right I because what you're thinking about you've got a job opening often there's nobody in the job.

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_01]: You're stressed out because you're probably doing that person's job or your team is doing that person's job right or maybe you're trying to build new capabilities that's also if there's lots of reasons to open.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And you need somebody yesterday right who can come in and hit the ground running and really knows what they're doing so I get it I have a lot of empathy for wanting folks like understand my folks want people to have done something right.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_01]: What I often what I counsel them on is yes you need to have some level of experience some in a defense if you're hiring entry level you're going to have lots of obviously a lot of expectations if you're hiring executive very different right.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So you've got to look at and say okay can this do I think this person can do the job do they have the general you know transferable skill set or direct skill set it's not right right.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_01]: To be able to come in and do it and do they have the mindset to do it.

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Do they you know have they shown that they can you know especially as something is newer for them and they haven't necessarily checked all those boxes have they shown they can easily transfer.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_01]: You know an experience or they can or curious and can hit the ground running and their own way because they're just going to come in and understand and I think.

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I think about sometimes I mean people that I love and we're just finishing up our internship summer right that like I love working with interns because they've never done any of these things mostly the time right and it's amazing.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_01]: How much they come in and contribute in eight weeks right and that's me as a good reminder for all of us but like if I can hire somebody who's like three years in the college she's never worked in a corporate environment and they can come in and hit the ground running and deliver.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think it really is about you know looking at sort of the person and what they've done and kind of how they think about the work and do they have a curious mind.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_01]: You know what work of the net and they're proud of I always ask that question and interview like what are you most proud of.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And like love here people's answers to that because that tells you a lot about them and of course to have do you think they can can do the next simple such job sure.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think especially because as we've talked about you know work is going to continue to change and so you really also want folks who are going to be adaptable.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And really interested in continuing to grow their career and potentially take it in different directions.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think starting with that empathy for understanding what managers are solving for but also reminding everybody that people like we all fall into this trap that there is no perfect candidate.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_01]: People are picking up don't exist and so like how do we get somebody who really think can have a long runway of growth in the company as well as meeting the media need.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so and you're right like they they're stressed out they've got work that needs to be done and yet at the same time you want people who are.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_00]: interested in the job and want to grow in the job right and like they really want to sink their teeth into it and yeah it's great having leaders like you that they kind of can as you said empathetically kind of help reframe this a little bit.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I love to get your take one of the ways and you just gave me an idea I speak in a letteration Tracy so this is using piece but when we're coaching.

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_00]: clients on interviewing I've been talking about three piece there's proficiency can you do the work right that's table stakes can you do the work.

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_00]: to your point a that of ten of the things like we're okay like you need to learn a couple other things.

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_00]: The second piece passion do you care about what we do why we do who we serve some element of the company the role of the mission that you're genuinely excited about.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_00]: the third piece personality you know like are you are you going to be somebody that will work well with others or you collaborative you just do you bring something to the team not are you good fit because I think that's got a little bit of baggage.

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_00]: but are you a your values that cultural add but you are there things about you that you're just you're going to be a good good person on the team.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I just said at the fourth p though based on what you were talking about which is potential.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and potential to grow into the role and somebody that we can continue to build the business around does that model work for your well what would you comment on that.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a great model actually I think you know we have the privilege we talk a lot about passion actually because you know.

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Levi's is an amazing company right iconic brand one of the most iconic brands in the world to be you know and I don't think I'm the rest of that I think the data with there that out and.

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you know when folks want to come work with us matter what role if they're in human resources or they're actually designing or they're in our storage or most of our employees work.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: You know I think that what often we hear either sort of unsolicited or will ask about it is what is your Levi story people tend to have a Levi story right if like.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a very much kind of a way to look at the way that we're looking at where they you know an affinity or some how they think about sort of the iconic moments in our in a world history that Levi's were supportive and so.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that very much comes through and we look for people who have that as well as a passion for whatever their specific role or whether focus area might be right and I do think those are absolutely keys and that's how and I think also for candidates you know is there in the workplace.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_01]: How are they evaluating as a good fit right so I guess I'd be curious as you think about this how did what is there what are they assessing in terms of the personalities of the people they're working on how much potential the company has for them how much is it.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_01]: good match and how hey because I do think at the end of the day when you're hiring people you want is the closest match you can find right with this really.

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Those with the companies looking for but also importantly with the persons looking for because we know that there's a mismatch on one of those then it won't ultimately be.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_01]: You know a great a great match as a from an employer perspective.

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean I was leading a fairly large group call before our call today with job seekers and it's part of what we were talking about Tracy said much appreciate you bringing this up.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_00]: There's mutual due diligence going on because the last thing you want to do is take a job where it's not going to be a good fit in part of my language Sunday night sucks.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a lot of crap I get it back there again so yeah you check the box that you got a job but maybe we'll kind of.

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Segway into mental health here in a second but if your job is stressing you out and it's not a good fit that is hugely problematic.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to pick up you know when you talked about being burned out what is burned out mean to you.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Gosh I mean so I think this is you know there's.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Professional's to get answered because the definition better than I could but I think that you know we all we talk a lot about this last year as I think you know that's a word burnout gets run around a lot and I think for I'll tell you my first experience was.

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_01]: You know it's I think for those of us who especially you know I mentioned I came out of consulting I've always worked really hard I've been able to work long hours and sort of pride in myself on that plus tenest old balance family life.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And all the other priorities and you know I think especially for folks like me I would say I had that I probably still do have pride myself at having a pretty high capacity for work being able to tell you my I think especially anyone in these jobs you have to.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_01]: However without recovery time without rest time without stepping away time that it accumulates it really does right I think when you think about me talk about burnout it's that there has been no restaurant recovery it's just a constant always on.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: For days on end hours on end no end in sight actually which leads to severe exhaustion but really just the feeling that like at some point I just I can't do this anymore right I cannot I mean I cannot do this one more day.

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And that is it's a really scary feeling especially for folks again who a lot of us who.

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Works long hours or whole career and pride in ourselves and climb the corporate ladder or whatever it is right.

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And then all of a sudden one day some of those skills you've had just to keep going keep going that my head down just fill me because your body's basically your body and your mind are saying I can't do this anymore.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: You know there's just not any more to give and and we know we see it in multiple settings not just work settings we see with people who are taking care of loved ones and caregiving and parenting and all sorts of things and.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I think this is it's a real real challenge and so for me it was so severe that I basically had just definitely completely I really said I'm going to take at least six months probably a year essentially just walk away from my job and try to get myself back into a healthy casino situation.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And and that is and I and I don't recommend that it's not and I had I was like he I had the financial means to be able to do that most people don't.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that that is an important lesson and it's interesting why this happened about 10 years ago.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And since then I've had two chief age arms are jobs that are you know arguably much more stressful than even the role I was in which was you know a challenging executive role.

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_01]: But because I went to that experience and I understand how to take care of myself better like how to you know basically the daily routine of just you know.

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Making sure I'm getting enough sleep and making sure I'm getting you know as much exercises I can which is not a bit just a walk around the block even or drinking enough water or eating it healthy foods.

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You know making sure I really unplug on the weekends take vacation time all these things that we all know now.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean now even even 10 years ago we didn't talk about this.

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And I will say one of the things that like if it happened to me at that moment so I don't know if you're familiar with Ariana having 10 and her company for I've level who were actually close partners with your.

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I was a little less than goes now I've gotten to know Ariana quite well and it's a great partnership but 10 years ago I just knew her from the public person.

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And right when this was happening to me she published her first book Rye for her book on which is other books that thrive about her own experience essentially with burnout.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_01]: My own experience and I felt like it was such a gift because it was a way to show some it was somebody showing me this okay something's not wrong with you.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: This actually what happens and a lot of ways corporate America's been you know has been designed this way.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And there's another path right which led her to then years later started company and then who knew.

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_01]: You know many years later we started to work together but it was and I told her this if this is such a gift because it felt like okay I'm not alone right and so this is why I'm so passionate about talking about mental health.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Issues of all sorts because I think you know we have to distinguish the fight.

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_01]: The signatized what was was actually been happening you know in the world for a long time and I think the pandemic.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Shut a light you know for better or worse on these mental health issues and some ways exacerbating them because of the isolation and stress etc but also letting people into our home to me and your son at my house right now.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_01]: In a way that we hadn't before and so for me this is something that I really passion about because I feel like.

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_01]: You know as a human being we're always going to deal with a mental health issue in our lifetime it's just is it's just part of being human and we often didn't talk about that in the workplace and we think that I think employees parallel and I think you know we've really.

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's what I'm saying because I tried to shift that and be much more open about it and then many people where they are offer resources.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, so that whether that's starting with the desto organization of it being people being able to open about their own challenges to the great we want to and then providing support mechanisms to folks can.

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Take care of themselves and their families is been really important because certainly you know I.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_01]: It's something I had my own personal experience but I've also had many people my team have had similar experiences and again whatever it is we need to make sure we're meeting people on supporting them.

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So when that's amazing and again I just want to say thank you for being open about like.

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Now this was a real thing I had to tap out for a while and go sort of rebuild myself to be able to get back into the game.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm very thankful that the it feels like in the current environment it is more okay to do that.

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Where are some of the things that you guys have done and at Levi Strauss that you're seeing and getting the feedback that this is meaningfully helping people.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So it is something that we look at you know really holistically so one thing I would say is for those you know we're listening here on HR rules like I think is important to take a holistic look right I think for a long time.

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_01]: We have been very focused on sort of the physical outcomes of our employees we still care deeply about those of course you want people to be healthy.

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Because you know a lot of us are the primary health care provider for our employees and so.

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So starting with just making sure people are healthy.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And that includes the mental health side of the equation as well.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we really again in this holistic approach we're trying to solve for multiple things we're trying to solve for okay are there services we can offer.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And then help people on a daily basis just take care of themselves right so I mentioned our partnership with right global thrive is all about micro steps what do you do every day.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_01]: To take care of yourself right where do you want to focus how do you put resets throughout your day like how do you just keep yourself.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_01]: As healthy as you can from mental health perspective and that is because everything from the thrive apps that people can use to we do programming around things people understand we do the lot of the strength of pentamic in particular.

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So people understood more about how they're personally wired.

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_01]: How they if the work that's right is done with Stanford around biotip some things like that and then you know how might you therefore do a stress and how might you then correctly manage that stress so that's that's been one really important partnership.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Also we know that people need more support so one of the other pieces we looked at is you know a lot of us have had.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Employee assistance programs for decades.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if you programs that have been home home and have only done so much to provide people with support when they need more support.

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So.

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_01]: About a year and a half ago we switched our approach to EAP we now work with a company called Lyra which provides a lot of mental health benefits so people have on time access to therapy right so they have many 16 therapy sessions a year.

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_01]: For them or their families that they can access virtually with a really different that are practitioners I'm also really proud to say we're a very global company and a lot of things we've been doing in these areas we intentionally do globally even though.

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And health care programming is very different across the globe right obviously we have it you know approach the US that we have to take from being self in sure it is a health care provider.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Of services but very liquid very different in Europe and I'm very grateful and Asia but we still want to give all these services to everybody and so even people in parts of the world.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Can get whatever access to they need with things like Lyra.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And the other thing I would mention is making sure people have the time to take care of themselves so we provide paid family leave to all of our benefits eligible employees which is not common in retail.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_01]: To have I mean it's very common in some industries like technology it's less common in retail but we have paid family leave so that if you need to go take care of yourself or your family number you can go do that and then come back to work.

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Something also I'm really proud we rolled out globally. We know we don't have great paid leave in the US.

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_01]: We often think because Europe or Canada in other places have great paid leave that the rest of the world is to it doesn't a lot of times another parts of the world you only can take leave if you're having a baby.

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Or something we really wanted to be to take care of a loved one or something like that and again expanded that globally.

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And personally I'm a huge advocate for it. I've been an advocate along with all my colleagues at L.S. and Co in the retail industry to tell you other companies they should go do this because we actually think it makes good sense for the business.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I never want to have somebody have to choose between taking care of their family member and their job.

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Does it make any sense in a world that's like the worst thing I want to do is replace somebody at work. I'd rather have them go take care of their family member and come back.

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I should ask you about how do you go make the case to your CFO.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's a I mean it's a music case to be made. So we we first of all it's cost us about 10% of what we anticipated it is not cost prohibitive first and foremost.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_01]: But we didn't know that actually at the beginning.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So we did we did go make the case to expand it.

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But even like right before I got here, we ended up being a blessing we put the expanded leave in place in the US right before the pandemic which we didn't know this was coming really helpful.

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we did expand it to globally after that, which has been because it's it's the right thing to do and an envelope of all of our benefits costs.

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_01]: It is a tiny fraction of what we're spending and you know I think because we take this holistic approach when we engage with our MSEFL or MSEO everyone's looking at okay what how do we actually support people and being healthy taking care of their families so they can kind of do their best work.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And so honestly the cost has been negligible relative to what we thought it was going to be and that doesn't even factor in okay what's the alternative cost is sort of cost is replacing somebody right someone chooses to leave and you've been a turnover cost etc.

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Which we didn't even really have to factor in because there was support there's a very much is the line to also our values as a company.

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's the thing I would say is L.S. and CO is a very value strip and organization we actually have empathy as a value and this very much felt like it aligned with how do we show the empathy for our employees.

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And by the way again just it's good business sense because whatever I was spending on paid leave I'm not spending on replacing employees and all the productivity losses that we get in that way.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And again it's just not as expensive as I can people think it is.

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So you brought up the next place I wanted to go so thank you which is around in the feet.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And then maybe we can I don't know I got a weird direction but.

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Remember when we had the manager that has an open role and work isn't getting done and here she's freaking out on like I need to get this work done.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And now we've got a situation where we've got an employee who has personal needs and things are going on in his or her life that like are impacting their ability to come in and do work.

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_00]: How do I balance empathy with the needs of the business if in fact those are opposing things.

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah I mean I think that I think in you know I think in the world not even in just business and the role we always have to deal with things that are seemingly at odds with each other right that's just our game part of.

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, getting life and and things like that and so what I would say is that I think both things can be true I think both things can be true that sometimes there you know we all have challenges in our personal life it's just a matter of time right well there's going to be a health challenge a family challenge some.

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes that requires people to take time away there's the obvious ones as someone who has a child or a doctor child that's an obvious one sometimes you have an older parent sometimes you just need to take time for yourself.

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And that will happen at any point and people's lives and not always predictably right we don't always know when that's going to happen and fortunately.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that obviously put strains on a business it might put strains because if you lose somebody for a period of time you've got to work around that.

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think that when it comes to showing up with empathy it's actually just understanding what's going on for these individuals I think we do better when we actually know what's going on we started this conversation we're talking about bringing your whole self.

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think we will be able to help them please manage what might be going on in their lives.

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Oxfitting and some of the resources I've described if we know what's going on.

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And so with empathy also I think what helps them with these transparency when we can say hey this is you know and even using the example of someone sharing their own personal journey like I've been talking about with some burnout it makes it safer for folks to say hey I might be dealing with this.

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And in my experience the more we can train managers to say well can you go get access to this resource making sure that it's easy for those to access.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Then it helps them manage their life in a situation where yes it might include some time away but then they're going to come back and be able to be focused and come back to work versus what often happens is we don't know we don't know we don't know people don't push don't share don't share don't share and then they have to leave.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And then they don't come back to work because they just decide to quit because they don't have another choice which is much actually would say harder on the business or the folks that remain so.

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a big believer that empathy in general isn't at odds with say performance and how the businesses performing because if you which is another value of ours actually as a company.

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Because if you're leading with empathy and you're understanding where people are they're able to come and do their jobs more effectively and I think that's just important out in my experience and certainly something that we.

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_01]: We how we sort of think about leadership here at L.S. and Co.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know your company well enough do people tend to be lifers and L.S. and Co or do you guys draw from outside the company regularly.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's both right I think it's both obviously we have the majority of our employees working our stores and distribution centers and we have folks that have long tenure there but also show your tenure as this typical and retail for sure and then corporate workforce.

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a mix right I think you look at our leader we are just looking at some of the data our leaders sort of our top 200 plus employees they've pretty long tenure with a company.

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_01]: But we also have new folks coming in all the time because especially as we think about the future and future skills you know.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_01]: We've really spent time in the last few years as everyone has thinking about machine learning and AI and all the other things right and some of those skills are new where that we've brought to the table.

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's always good to have a I mean firstly my philosophy always good to have a balance folks who've really been into place a long time and understand it and then also newer folks we haven't knew CEO who joined us.

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_01]: 18 months ago into cover at the CEO mantle in January with a very plantful succession process and it's been great to have her energy and her perspective which I'll go in the organization.

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And then even her leadership team is sort of a mix bag of a highly tenured and newer folks and so I personally have a little bit of a mix.

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But certainly people come because they love the company and they stay because they they love it.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But part of the reason I ask is.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_00]: If I grew up in a culture where empathy, authenticity, vulnerability some things we're talking about was kind of a given and like I'm bought in and then.

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe on the smartest person and silicon valley and machine learning or AI or whatever and I get hired by you guys and say well that's kind of not how I'm used to doing it like I'm harder driving super direct.

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Like whatever I feel has gotten me to where I am to be successful.

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you guys either vet that out during the interview process or set something that you find.

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_00]: It needs to be taught a little bit.

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you know I think certainly so we talk a lot about our values as the center of.

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Hillary our values are.

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_01]: You know very much critical to who we are and they do go into hiring the process right we do look for folks who align with our values together hiring or maybe as we develop folks as we assess.

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And our performance management process a girl values are very very very front and center and so I think somebody who.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_01]: May have a different approach then a line to their values probably wouldn't be the happiest.

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll listen to that's not unique to us every companies like that right every company that's really talk about company culture right what is the culture we made up of.

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And what do we need to do and we also talk about the parts of our culture we love and we want to lean into and then parts that need to also evolve right because it really company also has.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Parts of our culture that you know we could be stronger at right we.

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And it is for us as an example you know we do we do lead with empathy a lot which is great but that doesn't mean you're not all center act like I really believe that being direct is also being kind.

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a form of empathy.

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But maybe we don't always show up that way right because it's hard for managers to have a direct conversation is hard to give direct feedback sometimes and things like that so we know there's areas we need to lean into.

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I do think it is about assessing and understanding who's going to be.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_01]: He's going to be successful right I'm inventing it fits like is this person going to be successful it's back what we talked about it's mutual assessment on both ways and there are folks who probably wouldn't feel as.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Come up to build an R company or others another company man again every company has to understand who they are and whether looking for and I think same within Canada seems the same thing.

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Awesome so let's kind of come into the home stretch your little bit I want to kind of actually go back to.

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_00]: So at the beginning of the conversation around career stuff is I'm always fascinated by people that have been very successful and you mentioned early on about being laid off.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And again we work a lot with people who've been laid off and it's devastating to them somebody do a week or so ago.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like hey Bob I'd like to write you a recommendation but is it okay if I don't put my name on it because basically the stigma of being unemployed and or laid off.

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And like wow like that makes me sad that she's carrying that around like she's done something wrong or somehow.

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_00]: What would you say to somebody that is feeling guilty shameful whatever about losing their job through a lay off.

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_01]: It is really it is really sad and I would first start saying I understand I understand why people feel that way I know I felt that way.

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_01]: It does feel like because you don't have much control right it happens to you you don't have a lot of control in that situation and so and there is a lot of shame and stigma around it.

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I would also say as an HR professional do your best to let that go because it's very it would be unusual and unlikely that any of us go through our entire career without being laid off or losing a job not of our own decision.

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Right it's not it's just on a comment it's some point it's going to happen to everybody and I've had folks who've had much further in their career go ahead to personally off.

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And watch their reaction and watch the stigma even folks in HR who laid off and made a challenge with me and my roles unfortunately I've had the.

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I've had to lay a lot of people in my career and what I can tell you is that it isn't it isn't personal I mean it really isn't I mean it's a company making a hard hard hard decision the hardest decision we ever have to make and something I don't take lightly and I every time I do it it's very hard.

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_01]: But it is definitely not about anyone individual and it's not reflection of that individual so there's much as you can release that shame.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_01]: The better off you're going to be and to say and to not carry that around because again it happens to everybody.

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And so you know I think in the end to use that opportunity when it happens this is now your world.

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_01]: As such things is what I want to keep doing is this a moment to pivot is this a moment to double down is this a moment to go get do something different or get some more education or whatever those things are I mean.

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's it's a transition transition that may not be completely pleasant, but it is transition is provide opportunities right they just do and and I love looking at LinkedIn and seeing people who I've no been laid off.

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And where they land what interesting things they're doing or what they're doing in the meantime I mean it's really fascinating and there's so much richness to that experience.

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_01]: That I think I think is available to folks but I think the first step is to say don't carry that with you because.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately it just it's it's it's a sort of effective working life that will happen to the less at least once most likely.

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_00]: No and and that's exactly right and you know we teach people I really appreciate what you said about letting it go that's actually.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm the exact phrase that we use we have a little cross to keep anything keel know that you're going to land emotional ups and downs are part of the ride expect the best from yourself and from other people and let it go.

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Even if you're right what you have to let it go because anger often is it is also an emotion the people have and.

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_00]: The the other thing that you said is what we've called benefit finding.

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So I wouldn't have chosen this for myself and now that I'm here you know what I worked at that company for 14 years is that really like I was in a rut I wasn't growing.

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_00]: You know their values were starting to separate for mine and no way is right or wrong just is.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Taking care of an aging parent.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_00]: There's so many things if you're looking to to help me make this something positive it can be if you will let it be but there needs to be an intentionality.

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I always see it yeah like you'll see it in hindsight you can't I mean I when I say I say this all the time.

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean who knew I mean I was liking my career doing org work I got laid off and Levi's I could never have predicted that.

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Almost 20 years later I would be back being the chief HR officer at that company I mean that was not even.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I could have seen.

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Right but I knew that I really loved I worked a lot with HR organizations my last two because when I was in consulting and so when the opportunity came at gap I thought okay that's great I'll go bar in this I'll be more traditional HR see if I like that in terms I loved it.

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And then into the past but I never could have known right and so there's just things.

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_01]: that you can't see in the moment and it doesn't always bring comfort as those of us like to be playful and you know have to be feel like we're in control.

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_01]: But just know that you'll look back if you're like whenever period later and think oh my gosh I learned this or I got to do that or whatever that is because of this moment and time and I'm not saying that to sugarcuit I'm not an org to take away how hard it is it's very hard.

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But you just and you don't always know what's up with around the corner.

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_00]: It's the very I would tell you though that that is a very consistent experience and also all the networking that goes on.

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I met so many nice people right and I did I never would have met I got to reconnect with people I wouldn't have reconnected with.

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And it actually kind of in some ways resource people's faith that there's so many nice people out there that didn't need to do something for me and that turns into a paid forward.

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Kind of a mindset and say I promise I will always take some of my phone call whatever I wouldn't go back to more questions.

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to go back to what you said like one of your favorite questions to ask me your interviewing is if I heard you right you know what's the success story what something that you really proud of.

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_00]: What's the question behind the question what are you looking for?

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to have people respond in what they share and sometimes I'll even say doesn't have to be specifically work related it doesn't have to.

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I love to ask you how many people this I'm going to ask everybody this but especially like for those people who are earlier in career.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll often talk about an experience in college or younger like you know just because it's been a part of a team they were on or something like that.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_01]: What I'm looking for is the kind of work someone says they're proud of like what did they do and why why were they proud of it.

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_01]: The question I had a question is tell me why tell me what made that a meaningful experience with you and I'm not looking for one answer could be lots of things it could be because I got to be really creative because I got work for the great team and I live with other people it could be because I overcame a challenge.

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Lots of reasons I'm just really curious and what generally happens is the person physically changes right so they're in an interview and they're being you know very.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_01]: But that or very and like they're like they'll face a light up right if they actually can think of something and I watched the physical change.

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And then how they talk about what they're proud of and to me it's just it's just it's so instructive of kind of who this it really gets to some of the other things we talked about some other key is like whose this person is what lights them up will get some excited.

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_01]: kinds of things they they really like to work on why they like to work on this kinds of things and again it feels like a very universal question I can ask you if anybody at any level because in my role I interview lots of people.

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And across lots of different functions as sometimes for my own function the lots of different parts of the business and I get an insight into into you know what lights them up and I think that literally physically what lights them up and I love I love to watch that.

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Now it's funny you say that because this is part of what we teach people is to have an appropriate level of confidence right it's not cockiness and it's not arrogance but it's it's a grounded self belief.

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And when when people can get to that place the way I say something it's like you can see the fever break.

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And then it's like they lean in like I just did and you smile more and if there's more direct eye contact you modulate differently you're using my hands now right you know becoming more of a full human.

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Not this interview candidate in this sort of contrived, constructive conversation but like oh let me tell you and it really does open people up and I think that that's cool.

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Last question.

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_00]: With the benefit of hindsight you mentioned that a minute ago with the benefit of hindsight if you were able to give 28 year old tracing some really good career vice or maybe you're given it to a 19 year old sophomore you have a see.

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_00]: What would you say.

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought about this question actually just because you know a lot of times I've been asked this I think.

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I would actually tell myself not to worry so much.

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Which is maybe that's on a fair set of advice because like I have the benefit of not being 20 years old anymore and having many decades on that period to me that's not fair.

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_01]: But I do think there's something to that right to say and I think we all and I was just I just had the benefit of actually talking to a 20 on your old.

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_01]: The beauty of getting to this point in my life is not so so my son has gone to college but all my friends kids are going to college or graduating from college right and it's with.

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_01]: As this amazing your performance he we've watched their kids grow up and it's such a blessing to be able to.

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Give a lot of advice to other kids I've known since they were little kids right and so I was talking to this young woman.

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm probably known since she was 11 and she's 20 almost 22 and she's going to her senior year machine again.

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_01]: She's trying to figure what she wants to do and she thought she wanted to go to medical man now she's not sure and and I think what she walked away feeling more than anything else was that it was going to be okay.

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So I was going to tell myself that it's going to be okay because it is going to be okay and you don't know what it's going to be.

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's also okay right and I think I think I actually acted more taking that advice when I was younger I just thought okay this is interesting okay I'll do that and I'll do that but that doesn't mean that didn't have a lot of anxiety underneath it right and I'm making the right decision should I go to this should I like we have all these shins right that we think about and so.

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't prevent me from you know trying new things and things like that but I'll tell you I think a lot of us have a lot of anxiety about what this is you probably deal with it with the candidates you work with if you work should I go take this role should I.

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that the advice for all of us is it's going to be okay and so I would tell my 28 year old self just like I told this young woman.

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't worry so much you know and honestly even things that don't work out even mistakes if you want to call them that.

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just learning in fact I'm just telling my son this is a day I was like just go do lots of things like it doesn't have to be like there you know their failures or gifts right they really are and and also like they're probably really failures because they just gave you a gift and allowed you to pivot and do something else and so I think I would just tell myself not to worry and even.

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_01]: My own age I tell my that's also what's the next or what's the you know and how like it's good advice to even remind ourselves because we do have the benefit of more decades on the planet and.

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And yet we still need that reminder to so I think that's that's what I would tell anybody right now is like it's it's going to be okay.

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know and you may not see what's next but that just means there's something exciting on the horizon.

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah well I really appreciate that and I think that that does kind of destress it there's not just one right answer.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And there's going to be lots of good answers for you to go explore go go check out different things and yeah I love what you're saying that because it's true and to your point even today it's going to be okay.

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be okay and it's going to be great it's going to be more than it then it's going to be great like I think that.

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_00]: You're using your drive with Ariana and that's such a good word because it's more than survive.

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a good word.

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to grow your way to experience you're going to be rich or full or human being for experiences they come your way embrace them.

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely because that's what life is that's what we're here for right that's this it's like this one you know I love the Mary Oliver quote.

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_01]: What are you going to do with your one wild and precious life right that's that's a modded I think we all could.

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_01]: You know reminder ourselves of and and that means it's going to be winding and exciting and sometimes not exciting and sometimes scary but yeah it's it's what we get to do and that's such a privilege.

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And a blessing basically I can't end it on a better note than that so I'm going to stop talking about getting as good thank you so much what pleasure to have you I really I really enjoyed our conversation today.

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh I enjoyed it so much Bob thank you so much truly I really appreciate it.

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you everybody you're taking a few minutes out of your day I hope you enjoyed listening to Tracy as much as I did thank you for taking a few minutes right review on wherever your favorite podcast platform is we look forward to seeing you next time and Tracy just thank you again very fun.

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much.