Building Resilient Leadership with Nathan Tanner: From Job Rejection to Ironman Triumph

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Hi everybody, this is Bob Goodwin and welcome to another episode of Career Club Live. We're

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_00]: so glad that you've joined us today. Before we get started, I just wanted to share with

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_00]: anybody who might be in job search or if you know someone who is in job search. Every Thursday

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_00]: at one o'clock Eastern, we are hosting what we call Career Club Corner which is a free

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_00]: group coaching call. You can just go to career.club. There's a big banner right

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_00]: in the front as soon as you get on the homepage to register for this. This is a free call.

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_00]: It's always free. No selling, this is just providing a forum for you guys to come and

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe learn something new and then ask your questions about your job search. So again,

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_00]: if you're in job search or you know somebody who is, we'd really encourage you to go

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_00]: to career.club, click on the main banner on the homepage to register for free and

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_00]: we hope to see you or a loved one sometime soon. So with that let's get into introducing

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_00]: today's guests. I'm going to read this because this background is pretty cool. So

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_00]: we're thrilled to have special guests with us today, Nathan Tanner, an accomplished

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_00]: executive coach, author and leadership expert. Nathan is the founder of a thriving

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_00]: executive coaching business where he helps leaders from high growth startups and

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_00]: well established companies like to unlock their full potential. With a rich

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_00]: background that spans Wall Street, Silicon Valley and beyond, Nathan has

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_00]: unique blend of experience and insight that makes him a powerful voice in the

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_00]: world of leadership development. Today we're going to be talking about his new

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_00]: book I just learned a minute ago, his second book called The Unconquerable

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Leader. It's a powerful guide that combines his personal experiences with

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_00]: actionable insights and frameworks designed to help leaders thrive both

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_00]: personally and professionally. His book explores mastering both the

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_00]: external skills of leadership and the internal game of resilience, which is

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_00]: my favorite topic these days, making it a must read for anyone looking to

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_00]: excel in today's environment. So Nathan, I am so excited to have you on

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_00]: today. Welcome.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for having me. Very excited to be here, Bob, big fan of the podcast.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_00]: No, you're very kind. Thank you. So as this I want to do before we dive into

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_00]: the book, which I'm very excited about, let's just help people get to know

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_00]: you a little bit more as a human being first. So easy question. Where

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_00]: were you born and raised?

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I grew up in Anaheim, California and lived there until I went off to

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_00]: college. Cool. LA sports fan, you like the LA teams?

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Big Angels fan and Lakers fan. Those are my two big teams.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. That's cool. And then where did you go to school?

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I went to school at Brigham Young University in Provo and had a great

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_01]: experience there. What was your degree?

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I studied finance as an undergrad. Me too. What I learned though when

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_00]: you study finance, if you're in it, it's finance. Somebody told me that.

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_01]: That's right. It's been too long since I've been in finance.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I lost that.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Good for you. It's probably a good thing.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And then just a little bit about your family, Nathan.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. I was one of four kids.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Now I got married while I'm still in college and we have four young

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_01]: kids ages five through 13.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. That's going to answer another question I bet in a minute.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you mind just painting for folks just a little bit of a picture of your

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_00]: career arc and what you did after school that's led you to where you are today?

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, finance undergrad started my career in investment banking.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_01]: The perfect time and the perfect bank to do that. It was 2008 at Lehman Brothers,

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_01]: which turned into be the largest bankruptcy in U.S. history.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Really it was a challenging and defining moment early in my career.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I stayed in finance for about five or so years, made a very big pivot to the human resources world.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_01]: There I was at Link, NHRI worked at LinkedIn.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I was at DoorDash for almost five years leading the HR team and seeing that company through

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_01]: hyper growth, rapid scale from evaluation of $600 million to $70 plus billion.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Just a life changing experience. I then joined a smaller startup based in Utah called Neighbor

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_01]: as the VP of people and have since launched an executive coaching business.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Very cool. And then like I said, I think I might know some of the answer to this next

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_00]: question. When you're not writing books and coaching executives, what are you doing your spare time?

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I have turned into a big fan of triathlon. And so I am often running, swimming, biking,

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_01]: went on a 20 mile ride before we're having this conversation.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I play a little bit of pickleball and then just spend as much time with the kids as possible,

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: dance, sports, following all the things that they're into.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I was going to say when you have four kids, A5 to 13, you're pretty busy with their activities.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I bet you get a lot of your marathon training and just chasing them around.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. Yes.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So kind of the obvious question to kind of kick things off would be

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_00]: why this book, why now and the title especially?

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. So I should probably share the jump that I had into executive coaching,

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_01]: which is really where this book started. So I was an HR executive, had planned on moving

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_01]: into coaching full time at some point. And I went through a coaching training program where

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I learned a lot of tactics around developing the internal game, which I'll get into in a moment.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_01]: But I remember when I jumped into the coaching world and had my first few clients,

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and this is while I'm still in the corporate world, I'm doing this on the side,

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_01]: in my mind I'm thinking, okay, now I'm an executive coach.

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I am here to teach these leaders and help these leaders develop fundamental skills

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_01]: to make them more effective at their job. This is delegation, accountability, communication,

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_01]: all of these leaders, goal-setting, all of these leadership skills that we often think about.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And I found as I started working with people that yes, that is important, that they wanted to grow

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_01]: in this area. But a lot of the work we ended up doing was on the internal side,

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_01]: what I call the internal game. And that's all of the stuff going on inside of us that

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_01]: impacts how we lead but other people don't see. And so that's the self-doubt or

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_01]: self-confidence, it's the stories that we tell ourselves around who we are or who we can be.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It's the emotional resilience that we find ourselves having. And so I'm having a lot of

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_01]: conversations with people about their marriage, about their children, about sleep habits,

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_01]: all of these things that are impacting how they show up. And so that was ultimately the

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_01]: genesis of the book of, okay, how do we help people master the external game,

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: how we show up as leaders and also the internal game, what's going on inside of us that impacts

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_01]: how we lead. And so about two thirds of the book is on the internal game because that's what I

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_01]: found is really the opportunity for most of us. And why unconquerable? That's an interesting

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_01]: word. Yeah, so it's a really powerful word and I intentionally didn't use the word unbreakable.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a contrast that I call out explicitly of like we are all going to break or we're all

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: going to have experiences where we fall down, where we fail, where we really struggle deeply.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And I like unconquerable because it's, you know, we are not going to get conquered. We'll continue

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_01]: to get back up. We'll continue to keep fighting and moving forward. And you touched on the word,

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Bob, resilience. And that's really it. I'm like, okay, well, how do we show up consistently?

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And how do we get back up when we've been kicked in the stomach or when we face the

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_00]: setback that we weren't expecting? Yeah. So again, first of all, one thing that you said in your

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_00]: coaching business I think is really important and I hope listeners take away, you ended up talking

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot about marriage, sleep, kids, what we might call our real life, right? And, you know,

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_00]: these are all highly related. I think it's a myth, I'd love to talk about this. I think it's

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_00]: a myth to talk about work-life balance because it sounds like they're just, they live in silos and

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_00]: they don't really interact with each other. And, you know, I've heard people ultimately talk about

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_00]: work-life integration, work-life harmony. How do you think about that? Yeah, I explicitly

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_01]: in the book separate chapters into, okay, this is the internal game or this is the external game.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But I found that they're very much integrated. And how we show up at work is going to be impacted by

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_01]: what's going on in our personal life, by sleep, by marriage, you know, relationship with a

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_01]: significant other, whatever it may be. And then, you know, vice versa, if we're struggling at work

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_01]: or we're not succeeding there, that's going to impact it. And so I don't love the phrase work-life

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_01]: balance. I like work-life integration much more. And I've also found that there are times and

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_01]: seasons of the early days of DoorDash. I worked a lot. I spent less time with my family than I wanted to.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And my wife carried a pretty big load in the process. Over the last few years, I have optimized

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_01]: much more for time with family as I don't want to miss out on this period. And I think that's

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_01]: some of the challenges that we face is there's all these balls in the air and we don't want

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_01]: to drop any of them. How do we manage that? And it becomes a very personal thing.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so let's just kind of start on the internal game 1.0. And you alluded to it,

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_00]: but maybe you can just double click for a second on sort of these stories that we tell ourselves,

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_00]: these narratives that you find people are telling themselves. And then what's the impact that

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_01]: has? Yeah, so I've learned this myself. Very neutral events have happened to me in my life.

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I have told myself a story based on that. An example of this is after DoorDash,

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_01]: or sorry, after Lehman Brothers implodes, a couple months later, Lehman gets acquired by

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_01]: a bank called Barclays Capital. And a few months after that, I get let go. This is January 2009.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_01]: This is one of the worst times to be looking for a job, particularly in finance.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_01]: But I decided to tell, you know, this is subconsciously tell myself a story that

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not that smart. I'm not that good. There's other people who are better than me.

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I start looking for a job. I'm not having a lot of success. And these negative stories start

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_01]: continuing and they start defining how I view myself. And it impacted the job search.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And I learned in the process of this that I needed to tell a new story. And this is something

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_01]: that I see all the time with my clients. I have one client, Keanu, who culturally, and these are

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_01]: his words, it was very difficult for him to push back on his team, to set high expectations

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and hold them accountable. And when we unpacked this, we found out he'd been telling himself a

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_01]: story that a lot of this was cultural. And culturally, you know, you don't want to stand out.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_01]: You want to be the nice guy and get along well with everybody. But for him in order to make his

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_01]: company successful and to reach the goals he wanted to, he needed to tell himself a new

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_01]: story around who he could be, who he could become and how he wanted to show up. And so I found with

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: people there's a lot of self-limiting stories. All of us have these. And that's the first place to

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_01]: start because if we're telling ourselves a bad story, our growth is limited.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Dude, but do you ever find that even ostensibly very successful people are actually motivated

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_01]: by a negative story? Oh, this is such a good topic. Yeah, I didn't know you were going to go here,

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Bob. I'm glad you did. Yes. This is your dad's podcast. I mean, come on, I think this is what you

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_01]: call it. There you go. Well, well played. So I work with a lot of startup CEOs. And these are

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_01]: people who are extremely driven. They are building companies that have not existed before

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_01]: creating new industries. This requires a level of drive that very few have.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And I found that many of these people are heavily motivated by the need to prove themselves,

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_01]: a chip on their shoulder that they have from an event from their childhood or their upbringing,

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_01]: not feeling welcomed, whatever it may be. And I have found that while this can be very,

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_01]: very motivating and can lead to success, once you reach that level of success, then it's like,

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_01]: okay, now what? This is becoming less fulfilling. And what do I do here? So a question that

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I often ask is, what desires drive you? And what desires might derail you?

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And it turns out it's two questions, but it's really the same question because often

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_01]: the things that drive us to the pinnacle of professional success often become the things

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_01]: that are going to derail us or going to hurt us because we put all of these important things on

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_01]: the back burner in order to achieve this success. And then we get there and it's,

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_01]: that's it. Or we get there and it's, hmm, my personal relationships are struggling or my health

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: isn't the way I want it to be. That becomes a challenge. So it's a lot of fuel on the way up,

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_01]: but it can be a stumbling block once we get there.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So do you find that, I want to make sure I asked this question in a cogent way,

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_00]: let me sort of blurt out something then you can help me is say for example that,

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, my dad was either super successful as an example. Let's say, you know, he was an

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_00]: executive at IBM and he did really, really well. Or my dad told me or somebody told me,

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think you're going to amount too much. Like, you just don't have it, whatever it is,

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_00]: you don't have it son or daughter. You know, it's coming from the outside or how much of it is,

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_00]: so I would call that extrinsic motivation versus intrinsic motivation about some self-concept

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_00]: that I've got positively or negatively as a driver because I can see that like if it was

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_00]: extrinsic, like I want to prove my dad wrong. Okay, now I'm the CEO of DoorDash and it's worth whatever

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_00]: you just said, but either my dad died, like that's not fixing that or it's still not fixing it.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like how do you find, does it tend to be external or internal?

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it varies quite a bit. A very personal example, I had this high school swimming coach

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and I remember him telling me, there was a comment made about, you know, I was a little

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_01]: bit on the chubbier side. I wasn't always the hardest working kid and there were comments made about,

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, my body and weight gain and things like that and like I still find myself 20 plus years

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_01]: later as I'm training for a triathlon thinking about this seemingly innocuous comment that was

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_01]: made and like, okay, I'm going to prove him wrong. And so I think for many people these extrinsic

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_01]: motivators or the desire to prove to someone else or you know, wrong, I think those can be very

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_01]: motivating but I think it's ultimately unsatisfying. I don't think you ever get there and you're like,

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_01]: okay, now I've made it, now I've proved this person wrong and now I'm at peace.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is what I do a lot with clients is like, okay, now how do we take these extrinsic motivators

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and make them internal because the internal motivators are much more sustainable over time.

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Which and we'll get into resilience but as long as it's extrinsic it's got a really good chance of

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_00]: flaming out if when it's intrinsic it's just organic it's my identity. Maybe we can use that

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_00]: if this is an appropriate bridge to setting a vision kind of imagining a new story,

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_00]: imagining a new destination and visualization. Can you talk about that for a minute?

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah it's as we start telling ourselves new stories, it's essential to set a clear vision

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_01]: for ourselves. We've likely heard this many many times before of the need to set very clear

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_01]: goals around what we want to accomplish and who we want to be. And one approach I found to be very

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_01]: effective as a part of that is creating daily reminders around who we are and who we want

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: to become. And when I launched my coaching business I did the same thing, I created a list

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_01]: of truths that I knew about myself but needed to remind myself of. This included opportunities

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_01]: are everywhere, I'm playing the long game, my people can't afford not to buy this.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And I found there's so much negativity that's in the world that we need to combat that with

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_01]: positive messages that we believe in. It's one of the things I've seen elite athletes,

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_01]: top business leaders do is create these daily reminders around who we can ultimately become.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'd say that and then the second piece as we set a vision for ourselves I found to be really

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_01]: really effective is writing our goals down every day. And there's this study done by Gail Matthews

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_01]: that studied the impact of writing down goals and she found that those who wrote their goals

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_01]: down every day were 42 percent more likely to achieve these goals because it's constantly on

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_01]: our mind. We're constantly thinking about them how we might go about achieving them.

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And so those are the two things, writing goals and creating these daily reminders

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_01]: that are really really valuable and helping us achieve the vision we set for ourselves.

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Well if you know my I like to explore both of those a little bit. So as you know I work

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot with people in job search and you alluded even in your own journey like job

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_00]: search is hard because the way I say it is the road to guess is littered with no.

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean there's so much rejection and you need to hear a different story because people start

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_00]: to internalize. You know well I lost my last job so that must be some indictment on me. Now the

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_00]: marketplace seems to be voting against me which is why I'm not landing and I'm like

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_00]: both of those are probably not true right. You know the companies are making very draconian

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_00]: decisions these days. It's kind of like you described in 2009. I mean it's hard and how you

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_00]: lost your job probably doesn't have a lot to do with you. It has to do with the business right.

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And then the environment that we find ourselves in is again pretty challenging.

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's interesting on LinkedIn just using this as an example positive messages

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_00]: do extremely well or even as I was introducing this podcast I said you know we're doing these

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_00]: free Thursday calls and the feedback that I get on this is dude this is like therapy.

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I need some positive inputs in my life right now because it feels like there's so much

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_00]: negativity so you know I appreciate what you're talking about with that. Then you talked about

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_00]: writing stuff down and again I think that is part of just reprogramming the mind.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Right you know it's one thing to think things. It's even like when we talk to clients about

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_00]: you know interviewing and telling a story it's not enough to go you know and I call that humming

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_00]: like you know I kind of hum the story. It's like no you need to hear yourself say the words

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and I think it's very similar to what you're talking about. No I need to write this down.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_00]: It makes it real when I write it down and it's not just a concept and there's a commitment

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_00]: to writing something down versus well that would be nice you know that would be nice it's not the

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_00]: same as this is my goal this is what I'm committed to. Yeah yeah I've been there in a challenging job

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: search before and one of the things that I found for me is the negative I didn't process a lot

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_01]: of the challenges that I had gone through this is post-lemon getting laid off. I didn't I had

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_01]: processed a lot of that and so when questions would get asked about my job I'm confident

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_01]: it showed up that negativity I felt or resentment from people who let me go I'm

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_01]: confident that showed up in interviews and I this is one of the things why when I do work

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_01]: with people occasionally I work with people who are going through a career transition it's not my

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: core business but it's like take time you know with yourself with a loved one to process that

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_01]: emotion because that's going to show up and then and then a second piece I found that's really

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_01]: important is having goals outside of the job search. It is very very challenging to just get

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_01]: told no no no all of the time and having goals outside of it whether they be physical or spiritual

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_01]: or something else entirely that allows you to feel success and feel momentum outside of the job

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_00]: search I think also can be. Volunteering is one of the best handouts to that. Absolutely.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Not thinking about yourself anymore. Now but let's talk about the reality of challenges and you know

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_00]: embracing discomfort and I'm going to mispronounce why'd you come rescue me. Misogi am I saying that

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_00]: correctly? Yes yes that's right. So can you explain that concept and then we'll move on to the

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: external game. Okay let's do it. So I had this moment several years ago I had to catch a flight

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_01]: from Salt Lake City to Orange County and I was running a couple minutes late so I'm running

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_01]: through the terminal. I get there I'm a little bit sweaty and I find out my flight has been delayed

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_01]: for 45 minutes and in this moment at the end of a long work week I'm tired I'm sweaty I remember

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_01]: genuinely telling myself this is the absolute worst thing in the world and and thankfully I

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_01]: quickly caught myself and I was like okay if this is the worst thing in your life right now

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_01]: you need a reset and interestingly enough you know I had some times I pulled out my laptop I

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_01]: stumbled on this article that talked about this book called The Comfort Crisis and a lot of really

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_01]: good takeaways of you know fewer problems in our life don't lead to more satisfaction they lead

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_01]: us to lower our threshold for what is considered a problem and this need to regularly introduce

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_01]: discomfort into our lives and so and then I started you know going down this rabbit hole a

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_01]: little bit more and I learned about this ancient Japanese practice called misogi and it's this

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: idea that we do one hard thing every year and that reframes the other 364 days in our lives

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and and the first rule around misogi is we have to have a 50 chance of completing it needs to be

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_01]: really hard you know it can't be something that we know we can do and then second rule is don't

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_01]: die like we don't want to put our lives at risk here doing this and I had this gut check for

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_01]: for me and I was like okay I need to find a misogi like what should it be and I'd done a couple

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_01]: sprint triathlons running was younger you know you know was harder for me when I was younger

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and I had this idea of do an Ironman triathlon and I'd done some shorter distance ones but this

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_01]: is a 2.4 mile swim 112 mile bike ride and a marathon at the end 26.2 mile run and so ultimately

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I decide to do this I have a very very challenging experience which I won't go into to now but I do

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_01]: talk about in the in the book and this became my misogi it was it was it was brutally difficult

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I finished dead last of all of the people who did it but I remember several points along the way

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_01]: just wanting to to give up and wanting to to throw in the towel but like nope I can't do it

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I committed to this and and it really worked you know it reframed all of these minor discomforts

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and difficulties that I was experiencing and put that into perspective and I look back at the guy

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_01]: who was complaining about the 45 minute delay at the airport and it was like okay you know that

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_00]: that really puts things into perspective that's awesome that that is really really good so we

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_00]: talked about the internal game 1.0 which is what we've been talking about so far we take us

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_01]: into now thinking about the external game yeah absolutely so yeah so the the external game

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_01]: is focused on practical leadership skills as we talked about how do we set expectations

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_01]: give difficult feedback learn to delegate hold people accountable these are fundamental leadership

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_01]: skills that we all need to develop in order to be to be successful and so I provide a you know

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of a lot of takeaways a lot of tactical advice on how to improve here I'd say one of my

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_01]: one of my favorite ones and one of the practices that my clients find most valuable is this idea

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_01]: of creating a leadership operating manual and you know this is the the first value add is it's

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_01]: clarified to you know the beliefs that you have the values that you espouse and so it's answering

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_01]: questions such as what are my core values what are the expectations I have of my team

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_01]: what are my paves or what are the things that I'm trying to to work on or grow as a leader

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_01]: expectations around communication the types of things that energize me and and maybe drain me

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and and creating a document a manual of sort that that identifies all of this and so you know

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_01]: first it's it's helpful for us to find clarity here but then I recommend people go out and share

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_01]: this with their team um and help them understand okay if you're going to work with me here are

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_01]: some things that you might want to know about me it's really really valuable when hiring for

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_01]: for your team or when onboarding a new person or being new to a company and I saw this at

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_01]: DoorDash one of the uh one of the executives joined the company in a really challenging period

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and he came in with an operating manual and it allowed the team just to get to know him better

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_01]: understand him better build trust quickly and and start executing so that's that's one of my

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_00]: favorite uh favorite practices clarity is good expectation setting is good I really resonate

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_00]: with what you're talking about though with you're kind of doing the reflective work of what my core

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_00]: values are which highly relates to part one of this conversation of like who am I like

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_00]: what intrinsically motivates me well it's my values and therefore how do my values come to life

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_00]: whether personally or in a work context so I think that's really really cool um you

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_00]: you talked about you kind of rattling some things off but can we talk about feedback because

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a people pleaser okay a gift of mine is encouragement genuine encouragement not just

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_00]: you know hey you're awesome and that sucked but like like people need to be encouraged it's

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_00]: one reason that I think I've gravitated to you know the emergency room of job search is because

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_00]: people need encouragement right but the flip side of my personality is is I don't like giving bad news

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_00]: um because that is quote discouraging potentially can you talk about feedback and giving feedback

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_01]: receiving feedback and why it's so important yeah absolutely absolutely without feedback

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_01]: it's very challenging to improve full stop and so I have a full chapter dedicated to the excuse me

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_01]: to the power of feedback and the impact that it can have on us and so I think that's the place

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_01]: to start of realizing okay I do need feedback for me to grow and for me to reach my potential

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: but it is very very challenging the the most effective framework I have found when it comes to

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_01]: thinking about feedback is the radical candor framework this comes from a book by kim scott

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and radical candor as she describes is this combination of caring personally

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and being willing to challenge directly and and we need both of those two components

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and I found you know both and myself and the leaders I work with it's we tend to fall on one of

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_01]: those sides more so than the other okay I am very good at caring personally but I may struggle

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_01]: at actually having those difficult conversations or for some people I have no problem you know

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_01]: giving them harsh feedback I may hurt a lot of feelings but they may walk away thinking oh does

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_01]: does naphin actually care about me um and so the combination of those two those two things

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_01]: of caring personally and challenging directly is a very important place to start because

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_01]: the more we care personally the more we can have those those difficult conversations

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_01]: it's your off so go ahead as you say and then and then uh one of the things that we may tell

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_01]: ourselves is I'm not giving this feedback because I care about them and that I found to be

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_01]: a false assumption because if we really do care about someone we really want them to succeed

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_01]: then we'll be willing to have that conversation but it's probably we care more about our feelings

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and the impact it may have for us than uh than them yeah that's convicting um have you found a model

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_00]: for delivering tough feedback that it seems to be pretty effective yeah yeah my my favorite model

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_01]: is the sbi framework which is an acronym for situation behavior impact I like it because it's

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_01]: it's three letters so it's easier to remember um and you know situation this is this is getting

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_01]: into the conversation we want to put this feedback in context we're letting them know when and where

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_01]: we observe this situation um that's the situation kind of set in the context here's here's here's where

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_01]: this happened I'll provide an example of the second uh the second is the behavior and this

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_01]: is describing only the behavior you noticed this should be 100 objective if there was a camera

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_01]: or a recording device of some sort in the room it would be able to pick up on that so calling

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_01]: out the behavior here's what I here's what I saw and then the third piece is the impact uh and this

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_01]: is describing how that person's behavior impacted you that's the piece that is subjective and so

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_01]: what I really like about this framework is it separates the objective from the subjective

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and so an example of this is the situation you know during yesterday's stand-up meeting

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_01]: that the behavior I noticed you were looking at your computer and did not participate in the

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_01]: discussion that's objective the camera could have picked up on that and then the impact

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_01]: is I mentioned it because it gave me the impression that our contributions weren't

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_01]: important to you and I really really like this framework because it creates a conversation

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and it allows you you know the person may be able to argue over the impact that that had like oh

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry that wasn't my intention what I meant was this what I meant was that uh but the behavior

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_01]: is objective and and that's something that both parties should be able to to agree on and so

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_01]: anyway that's a really powerful tool that I that's bi I can remember that one that one's good

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and then you alluded to this uh earlier but talking about delegation accountability and

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_00]: basically managing team dynamics and you know some people again will have very different styles

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_00]: in this like I can't delegate like if you want something done right do it yourself kind of a

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_00]: mentality versus well like you're delegating too much or not holding people accountable

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_00]: not holding yourself accountable managing team dynamics where you've got different personalities

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_00]: strong not as strong passive not passive can you sort of unpack that that concept of team dynamics

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and delegation accountability yeah I like to think of leaders sitting on a spectrum ranging from

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_01]: a micromanager to an absentee manager and we always hear about the micromanagers these are

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_01]: people who are in all of the details telling us exactly how when to do all the work

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and we know about how that can go can go sideways I think we often don't think about the absentee

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_01]: manager uh who you know may not delegate may not set expectations isn't there to answer questions

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_01]: that can be that can be just this challenging I have found for myself and a lot of leaders that

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_01]: we tend to under delegate rather than over delegate you know we we want things to get done right

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_01]: so we do it ourselves or you know we may be the the CEO of a small company and you know

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_01]: we may actually be better at doing some of these things than the people that we're going to

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_01]: delegate them to but I found when we do that we not only rob other people of the opportunity to

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_01]: do their job and do great work but we can end up in burnout like trying to do everything ourselves

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_01]: is just it's just doesn't work and so I I have created six rules around delegation

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_01]: that I found really helpful for people the first is finding the right person for the job

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_01]: often we're overwhelmed and we're like please someone take this but pausing to think through

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_01]: okay who might be the best person to handle this work is the first step the second is explaining

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_01]: the why helping people understand why we want them to do this the third is setting clear

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_01]: expectations which is usually a big miss in delegation we hand something off but

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_01]: we didn't set expectations or when something may be due the fourth is creating space for the how

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_01]: having people find have a little bit of autonomy and how they go about doing the work

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_01]: the fifth step is then committing them to a deadline okay when are you going to come back and

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and complete this and then setting the expectation that it is on them to let you know

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_01]: if they're not going to be able to hit the deadline and then the sixth is is being patient like I found

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_01]: it most companies training fall short and we give people work we don't set clear expectations we

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_01]: don't teach them how to do it and then they fall short and then we get mad and frustrated and

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_01]: like there's a level of patience that we need to have when delegating things to it. No that's

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_00]: awesome and I can even see that being back in the personal operating manual of like hey here's how

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I like to delegate here's my exit late like everything you just said here's kind of my

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_00]: expectations if you're struggling tell me soon right so if you need more help or if we need

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_00]: to change the deadline or something needs to happen sooner is better to start kind of

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_00]: remediating something absolutely yeah and so I think that those kinds of concepts are just

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_00]: so helpful for people not to think about a situation where I probably haven't provided

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_00]: enough clarity to somebody that I need to hang up so this is always a good reminder

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_00]: so is there anything because I want to move on to what I think is really kind of

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_00]: the the medius part of all this but before we leave the external piece of this is there

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_00]: anything that we haven't covered I know you have a lot of chapters on this but

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_00]: just something that's like foundational that we haven't covered on this piece

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah the one thing I will touch on very briefly as I talk about or you know push leaders to

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_01]: stop giving advice and start asking questions instead and this is one of the things many people

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_01]: go through when they're put in a manager role then they get promoted and they're

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_01]: they're building a larger team it's like I have to know everything or I have to be able to answer

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_01]: everyone's questions I have to be the the answer person yeah and while that may work early on

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_01]: it doesn't work with scale and so I push people like okay you don't have to do that like let's

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_01]: let's ask questions instead you know ask your team uh you know I have some thoughts around how

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_01]: we can do that but first how are you thinking about that what additional information do you need to

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_01]: make that decision and so leading with a question I think can be a really really powerful way to

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_01]: get other people to be more curious and also it avoids burnout a little bit because you're

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_01]: leveraging all of the strengths from the from the team and in the in the book I provide

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of questions that people can use because that is a is a big shift for us um but you know

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_01]: pulling back on the advice piece and leaning in more with questions is that the one final thing

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll watch that job no I love that and it reminds me a little bit too of accountability in the

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_00]: sense of when people you know show up in your office with a problem it's like hmm that's

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_00]: interesting Nathan what do you think some of our options are well I don't know I just

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_00]: would have done this in your lap and leave yes no no no no no no no no you know problem

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_00]: identification is not a compensatable skill you know solutions now now you have my full

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_00]: attention but if all you want to do is unload a problem so what do you think we should do

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_00]: about this what do you think three one two three viable options might be to solve this

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_01]: oh yeah so yeah and if the leader's always jumping in to to save the day and answer all

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_01]: the questions people's brains just shut off and they and they default to okay my manager is gonna

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_01]: is gonna provide me the answer solve it for me and questions turn turn the brain back on

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and get people to be creative and come up with solutions there you go so catch us up Nathan

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_00]: so so we've been through the internal game 1.0 we've looked at the external game where are we

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_00]: so far and how does that take us into the internal game 2.0 what's the setup yeah so

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I come back to the internal game a second time because I want to call out how closely

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_01]: these are interwoven you can't just like you know focus on the internal game and then focus on the

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_01]: external game and think of them as very separate things becoming an unconquerable leader is a

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_01]: cyclical process it's not a it's not a linear one and so that's that's a big part of it

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_01]: of like mastering the internal game is probably actually more challenging than the external

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_01]: game and it's a never-ending process that requires continual attention

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_00]: so so what is what is the internal game 2.0 what's the headline on that yeah so so for that

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_01]: we're getting into things that are more around resilience and self-regulation

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and kind of how do we thrive from a from a long-term standpoint so in in this we get into

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_01]: managing emotions and anger we get into tools that can help with that of breathing

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_01]: going on a walk you know overcoming our upper limit which is a concept we get into

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and so yeah those those are the things that we start diving into in the internal game 2.0

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_00]: okay so let's just touch on the the physical and or the physiological just for a minute

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_00]: right because sometimes breathing sounds like you know going to the spa or get some crystals out

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_00]: or like it it's just like really I mean come on I have an MBA and blah blah blah now you're

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_00]: telling me I need to breathe like really more you know what the secret is Bob go take a walk

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_00]: can you explain to people like that's not crap like you know this stuff really works and here's why

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah yeah so this goes back to where I was when I was planning on becoming a coach

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I learned a lot of these things in my training program and I experimented them with myself but

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_01]: then I'm like okay no I'm I am coaching executives I need to focus on all this

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_01]: external game stuff I implemented the practice of starting every coaching session with three

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_01]: deep breaths and I still do this the beginning of every session my clients come in from somewhere

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_01]: else focused on something else I'm probably coming from something else and like let's come together

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and let's identify well or let's let's let's do three deep breaths together and the reason is

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_01]: this breathing has been found to calm nerves reduce stress and anxiety it can lower depression

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_01]: reduce headaches and it's actually been found to lower blood pressure by by 30 points or more

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and so there's there's just a lot of data on the power of breathing

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and and the value that it can that it can provide for us and so I I like this 555 method of

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_01]: you know breathing in for five seconds holding for five seconds and then breathing out

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_01]: it it's just it's just an incredible tool to help us pause and help us help us get centered

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_00]: it's amazing and what's the benefit of taking a walk yeah so and going on a walk this is a

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah this is an interesting one for me so research has found that walking increases problem solving

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_01]: for more than 80 percent of people there's just something about the process of

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_01]: hooding one foot in front of the other it can be found it's found to be very meditative

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_01]: the you know Stanford did a study around walking and and looking at people's creativity levels

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and they found that people who go on walks that will increase their creative output by

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_01]: 60 percent or more and so it's it's something I have tried to to do more of walking meetings

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I found to also be very effective of like if you can get outside you know walking next to someone

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_01]: the the the feeling of being by their side and maybe not looking at them directly in the eyes

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_01]: you're having a difficult conversation you know maybe maybe one of the benefits

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and yeah also it found that it can it can increase or or you know reduce

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_01]: reduced depression increase academic performance yeah there's a lot a lot of benefits from

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah so you know that that whole creativity thing we can move on is is really true I do not

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a podcaster I don't listen to a ton of podcasts and when I walk I don't want to I don't want to

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_00]: listen to music I don't want to listen to a podcast I'm trying to dial out all the stimulation

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_00]: so that I can just let my mind go a little bit right and reflect and just like what comes to mind

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_00]: in you know when you're upright so you're moving right and blood is flowing you've got a good

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_00]: level of oxygen going through your system you know you're outside which is good and sunlight is good

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and just is good and but just like being away from a screen being away from calls being away from

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_00]: just give it's white space basically you're giving your mind some white space

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_00]: so they can actually do what it's good at doing and uniquely qualified to do

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_00]: compared to being on your phone or whatever all the time so I wouldn't believe in that

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_01]: yep I'm not the I'm not the most Zen coach out there and I know some people hear stuff like this

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and and there may be an allergic reaction to it I am very very practical and so I found walking

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_01]: breathing like we need a place to to disconnect we need to find stillness and separation from

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_01]: all the things going in our lives and and if walking or breathing may not be it

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_01]: you know find something that works for you just sitting in nature it could be another

[00:50:08] [SPEAKER_01]: you'll find find something that works for you now I'm going to guess I'm moving on

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_00]: there one of the things that some of your highest performing clients struggle with

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_00]: is this concept that I really enjoyed in your book it's basically the difference between

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_01]: perfection and progress can you talk about that yeah and so there's one of one of the

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_01]: challenges that we have I shouldn't say that we have that many of my clients have I'll speak

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_01]: for them is this desire to get everything done and to to be perfect and to do to do all of the

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_01]: things effectively and I found that the challenge we have when we focus too much on the the gap in

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_01]: front of us we focus too much on the the person we want to be and there's such a big gap there

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_01]: that can actually derail us a little bit and we start to get down on ourselves we may start to get

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_01]: depressed a little bit and there's this feeling of you know like why even bother

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and so one of the exercises that I do will push my clients to focus on the game actually

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_01]: let's look back at the person you were a year ago or five years ago what might that person

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_01]: say about the progress that you've made and when we look at things that way and we see those results

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_01]: we see that gain it can be really really motivating you know this isn't polyanna ish thinking this

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_01]: isn't you know kind of toxic positivity no it's looking at real things that we've done real

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_01]: progress that we've made um and and one of the things that I also like to do is is is

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_01]: you know celebrate those wins and I do this by creating a what I call a greatest hits folder

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_01]: look I'm sorry tell me more about that okay yeah so so greatest its folder this can be a an actual

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_01]: physical folder or it could be a folder you keep up on on your computer and these are the big

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_01]: wins that you've had um you know I have one of the things I talked about in the book is I had

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Dave Ulrich who was like kind of the um the leader of modern HR um and he wrote a very kind words for

[00:52:40] [SPEAKER_01]: a blurb for my first book um and he read the book in one day and and it came at a time when I was

[00:52:47] [SPEAKER_01]: struggling with self-confidence around this creative project I worked on and I found myself

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_01]: going back to that regularly of like okay this was a this was a really big win let's let's

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_01]: recognize those wins put them in the greatest hits folder and when we find ourselves lacking confidence

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_01]: or struggling which we all do we can go back to those wins um and and you know kind of pull from

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_00]: that energy and use that to to propel us two thoughts one is this is super practical is

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_00]: doing this on your computer on a personal drive not on your work computer per se is cataloging

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_00]: those just for performance reviews right because particularly if you're a gap oriented person

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_00]: well that was yesterday I'm still I gotta go fix the next gap and I forget what I did

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and then when it's like well you know Bob looking at your review it's like well wait a minute

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I've actually cataloged all the progress we've made as a team right and where you know

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to grow in this area over the last year and here's the progress that I've made

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_00]: like if you don't document that you kind of do it to your own peril the the other thing I was going

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_00]: to say Nathan it's kind of taking your goal writing every day and this is be at the end of the day

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_00]: is where are one or two things that I did well today and celebrate the good things

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_00]: that happen today and giving myself that dopamine hit then you know I did do something well

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_00]: today I did accomplish some things and then this is again because I think sometimes we deal with

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_00]: a similar ilk of client is not everything went great today what's something that because we tend

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_00]: to play negative tapes in our head it's just I think the way people are wired is okay that didn't

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_00]: go as well as I would have I tried to deliver feedback in the SBI model it didn't go as well

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_00]: as I would have hoped what did I learn and then basically move on and let it go right and so

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_00]: celebrate the good thing you know acknowledge because it again not trying to be poly anus or

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_00]: you know two rose colored glasses about the whole thing but it's like okay that was not great

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_00]: this is what I learned and now I'm going to put it in the past and I'm not going to dwell

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_00]: on it and I'm not going to forget the good things that happened and just beat myself up

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_00]: for that one thing that you know didn't go as well as possible and we have just seen like

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_00]: remarkable breakthroughs with people that it's like okay I did get a little bit better today

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_00]: like today I did something good which motivates me for tomorrow right to do something and not be

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_00]: chained by the one thing that didn't go well and then to your earlier point what's the

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_01]: use of trying see I told you I'd fail with this so absolutely yeah the act of writing something down

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_01]: what you learned what you struggled with takes it out of your your head and uh you know puts it on

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_01]: paper and so you're not replaying this oh I messed up I should have done this differently like

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_01]: you can absorb the learnings and you can and you can move forward I love that okay so I want

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_00]: to be mindful of the time because I could talk to you for three hours um what have we not covered in

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_00]: this last section that you think is would be one more really good key takeaway yeah the one thing

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_01]: that I would that I would add and this is this is the simplest but hardest is the power of consistency

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_01]: um and uh you know I share this story uh Bill Walsh he was the 49ers coach he came in in 1979

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_01]: right before he joined uh they had a two and 14 record 49ers did worse than the NFL

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_01]: he comes in and he implements what he calls the standard of performance these were rules around

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_01]: how everyone in the organization was going to to operate uh and due to time I won't go into

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_01]: that but he implements this standard of performance he's all excited and the next year they win two

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_01]: games and lose 14 games same exact record as before and I'm sure he's pretty frustrated at this point

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_01]: but he keeps going he keeps focusing on the fundamentals the standard of performance the

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_01]: next year they win six games and lose 10 so there's a little bit of improvement but there's

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of pressure on him at this point um but he continues to you know hold true to his standard of

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_01]: performance he's consistent and the next year they go 13 and 3 and they win the Super Bowl

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and I really like this story here uh because I think it's true in our lives a lot of times like

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_01]: we take these principles we've discussed and we try it out we try to get feedback

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and it doesn't work we try to ask more questions and it doesn't work and and then we and then we

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_01]: give up but often it takes time and there's there's real power in consistency and doing the little

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_01]: things every day um and this idea of getting 1% every bet every day 1% better every day if we do that

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_01]: we don't get 365% better in a year we get 3778% better because these gains start to compound

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_00]: but it takes time to see that progress yeah that reminds me of good to grade in the flywheel

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_00]: you're like you're pushing and you're pushing and you're pushing it's not working

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_00]: but what coach Walsh probably saw that was probably harder to see externally is this

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_00]: thing is starting to budge and when it takes off it really takes off right they go in the Super Bowl

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_00]: right so I love consistency and and I really appreciate what you just said about kind of

[00:58:52] [SPEAKER_00]: dabbling is different than commitment right and well I kind of tried that it didn't really work

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_00]: well how long did it how long have you been doing it the other way that we've determined

[00:59:02] [SPEAKER_00]: doesn't work it takes a while to undo and build new habits and build new strengths

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and to your point that's consistency did you go out and run 26.2 miles the first time you decided

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_00]: to go run no yeah build to that and that took a long time but it was commitment and consistency

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and training eventually gets you there but you got to start and you got to stay right yeah yeah

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_01]: if we focus on the inputs consistently that's where we put our attention is the inputs

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_00]: the outputs will take care of themselves yes exactly so Nathan is there anything else that we

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_01]: haven't covered before I let you go yeah I guess I'll wrap with this I stumbled on this quote

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_01]: a couple years back and it's one I think about all of the time it's from Kwame Anthony Appiah

[00:59:53] [SPEAKER_01]: he says in life the challenge is not so much figuring out how best to play the game

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_01]: the challenge is to figure out what game you're playing and this really resonates for me because

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I push people like let's look at your strengths let's identify your goals the vision you have for

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_01]: yourself what you want to accomplish who you want to become and when we have clarity around that

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_01]: we're truly playing our own game we're not focused on all these other status games or

[01:00:28] [SPEAKER_01]: these other goals that people may have that we get stuck in like we're truly focused on our game

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and so I will lead with that I'm like what's what's the game you're going to play and and put your

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_00]: attention okay so Nathan amazing if people want to get a copy of the unconquerable leader how

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_01]: do they do that yeah it's on it's on amazon it's available for kindle paperback audible

[01:00:51] [SPEAKER_01]: you can you can check it out there cool are you the reader on audible I am yes I did I did

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_01]: go through the the painful process of recording the audiobook but I I like when I listen to audiobooks

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_01]: which I do a lot of I like hearing it from the author so yes it's me that's super cool and if

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_00]: people want to reach out to you learn more about your executive coaching business how

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_01]: do they do that yeah you can come to Nathan Tanner dot net that's my landing page or

[01:01:19] [SPEAKER_01]: reach out on LinkedIn very very active on LinkedIn please say hello uh would love to

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_00]: love to connect with you cool we'll put the URL on the final version of this Nathan thank you so

[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_00]: much and to our listeners thank you so much for taking a few minutes out of your day

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_00]: cannot encourage you enough uh getting the unconquerable leader Nathan thank you

[01:01:37] [SPEAKER_00]: thank you so much this was my Bob