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[00:00:00] Hey everyone, this is Dylan Taggart here for another 360 Insights HRTechChat. Here with Ray Walker, Ray is a contingent workforce compliant expert and he's based in the UK. Hey Ray, thanks for joining me today. I did a lot of things with the employer.
[00:00:16] Yeah, just so everyone knows Ray is the always making sure people are staying in compliance and making sure business is staying in compliance with their contingent workforce.
[00:00:28] I guess the first question right off is that for you Ray, how would you best describe a contingent worker? Is there a feel like the main idea of term everyone's familiar with?
[00:00:38] Yeah, no, it's a really good question. If you go around into different countries, you come across a lot of different terms of regards it's good to sort of clarify. The contingent worker is often called a non-standard employee in the UK. It's getting known as an off payroll.
[00:00:55] Effectively, someone who you're not engaging on a full-time traditional employed basis. They can work on single gigs. They might be working on programs or projects that are sort of lasting a little bit longer than that.
[00:01:11] And they may come back for repeat business on a number of occasions. So it's quite a wide spectrum of what they might be, but those who are not permanent employees of your workforce.
[00:01:21] Interesting. So in the mentioned project based and I think everyone is becoming more familiar now. It's like the fractional or gig economy or contingent worker economy. For someone like you who's really steeped in it, what would you say is kind of the landscape in 2024 or contingent work?
[00:01:47] I think we're in a really interesting time. There's been a fairly decent growth over the last 10 years of contingent work around about one fifth of the workforce is now contingent workers. And I'm saying that's growing quite substantially over the last 10 years where we sit now.
[00:02:09] Post pandemic, there's a lot more people who sort of work starts work remotely and from that they've been sort of starting to see the benefits of perhaps going and having either a side hustle or having turning their sort of like becoming a full-time contract or freelancer or gig worker, whichever terminus you want to go with.
[00:02:30] So where we see it now is we see a market that's growing, moving in a really big direction but we also see the legal landscape escape is still trying to catch up and there's a battle there between making sure that things are being managed in accordance with either that have been tax departments or the labor laws.
[00:02:54] Or even sort of immigration and cross-border that needs to be brought into consideration because things have become a lot more global.
[00:03:01] So it's a very interesting market to be in. There's a lot sort of new entrance into it, there's a lot of new situations and technologies are continuing to evolve and come in and sort of trying to help push this egon more.
[00:03:15] So yeah, having been it for this a long time I see the future being probably the most exciting to have been interesting.
[00:03:24] And in where do you spend into all that like how would you stay, how would you best describe your role to someone and kind of what your day-to-day or week-to-week look like. Yeah sure.
[00:03:37] So I effectively make sure that everybody sticks within the rules and the rules is a really big term but it applies to the circumstance of that environment.
[00:03:51] So if we're looking at if I'm working directly with an enterprise client who's a user of contingent workers, the rules might be a case of making sure that they're not misclassifying the work or as either an employee or an independent contractor.
[00:04:08] They might also be considering about if they're trying to work with someone overseas, how do they make sure they engage them in the correct way are we talking about length of time.
[00:04:20] If we're looking and working with the actual workers themselves again, how many gigs that they do and how many sort of projects, how long are their projects.
[00:04:28] Are they what's more so intention? Are they saying I'm quite happy to be an employee? We don't need to look at the independent contractor part.
[00:04:37] That takes away challenges around misclassification but working as an employee in that arena you've got the employment rights side of that and then obviously the correct taxes and deductions.
[00:04:48] And then if you're multi-dura-stictional which which jurisdiction has a claim on those is it is it some is it all is it just one part of it. So my part is to literally first and foremost to understand the rules of the environment, understand the requirement.
[00:05:05] And then going apply those and make sure that there's process and procedure around it to make sure that we haven't overstepped anything.
[00:05:13] There are times then where I might be working with clients who will say, I know the rules but I don't necessarily fit as a business inside those rules at the present time.
[00:05:23] What do we need to do to adjust how do we need to get to fit within those rules? And this therefore it's trying to work and guide and push people in the right direction as to what they need to do.
[00:05:36] Sometimes it's not possible and that's a big understanding because people want to necessarily sometimes work with people and you can't work in the way that they want to. But at the very least I can turn the light on and show them what they need to do.
[00:05:48] And so I'm going to set up to them as to whether they can or want to actually make any changes.
[00:05:53] Often I come across this that the clients that I work with their clients have got requirements and so why is my client might want to sort of make those changes? They can't because of the requirements that their clients actually put in upon them as well.
[00:06:07] So again it's understanding all of that sort of like how all of the dominoes are falling and how they're connecting all that together and putting that within the in the actual practice of the rules at that point in time for that.
[00:06:17] That point in time for that specific set scenarios quite complicated. But you know as I say that's probably in an actual that's what I need to do. I think some of this complicated put it into sensible easy speech so that people can understand it and work.
[00:06:32] Yeah that could be a massive task. It's definitely in the US and maybe like it like you should somewhat know how it is in the UK and the US often there's the issue of like.
[00:06:43] Federal state city or you know you know like I guess you could say jurid, juridistictional compliance you have to deal with within the federal system of the US is it's just as it's similar there where.
[00:06:59] You have to kind of balance all those simultaneously as well and then I guess. Post Brexit maybe don't the deal with the EU legislation anymore but you may also have workers coming in from.
[00:07:12] Other countries in Europe as well they have the factor in all that compliance that's in me. So it's similar and then distinctly different. So we don't have the multi juristictional elements in the UK because you've just got one government.
[00:07:28] And in fact you only have one government agency so in the US you've got multiple government agencies as you say you might might be from a city perspective or a federal perspective. So from a. An administrative perspective is a lot easier in the UK.
[00:07:44] However that doesn't mean that they've sold all the problems in how to sort of like work out where the landscape is there's a.
[00:07:51] I think a special status that I think I've only come across in the UK where if we look at the US and the UK as an equivalent the US has an independent contractor and everybody else is an employee.
[00:08:03] What you have in the UK is they have like a middle ground that you have your independent contractors you have your employees and then you have. What's been termed in a number of different ways some someone called them a dependent contractor.
[00:08:16] But their legal term is that other worker and that someone who's effectively employed but on a contract basis and working. A site and working for a client who isn't there employer so they've been to conded out all the time but on sort of like a short term project.
[00:08:33] There's a different legal. Status and people get different rights according to what their status may be.
[00:08:41] So we have to be conscious of that we have to be aware of that there's changes a foot in the UK political landscape and one of the things that are looking at is that actual classification.
[00:08:51] And the rights that workers get to whether they get day one rights or whether they get in in some cases and get these rights and some rights until they're two years into an event and that means contractors never get in because they're not going to be a contractor.
[00:09:05] I don't know, we're going to be in a contingent space if they're doing something for more than two years. So we have to look at that if you look at them post Brexit there are changes but not massive sweeping changes.
[00:09:17] Before Brexit you still had to look at check to sell the insure somebody had the right to work. You now have to do that but the right to work is taking on slightly different plates.
[00:09:27] So now it's if you've got a British passport or if you've got the freedom of movement before Brexit so if you've got European passport. And there's certain things a government put in place to help sort of like work out whether you've got that in play.
[00:09:41] And then after that anybody else is effectively it's a no they need to be turning up with some kind of work permit.
[00:09:47] So it's not a lot say the landscape isn't massively different it's just possibly the library of passport that you could have looked at as when is narrowed down to sort of like a repossible or any use or share code as they call it.
[00:10:03] And I know you make as the just for everyone's full disclosure right and I have spoken before and in our previous talk he you did mention. That misclassication work is a big issue and people are usually very close to being out of compliance.
[00:10:19] But you also mentioned that part of the reason is that the laws just not really hot up to the landscape work.
[00:10:29] Could you give me a bit of an example of what that would kind of look like in your day to day and how and when where the lives kind of lagging behind.
[00:10:41] You can use a really good example as I said there's a free classification of different types of. Workers, you know the traditional employees independent self employed ones and then the legal worker.
[00:10:57] That's something that's really was was been in place for a few years now, but that that was when. Continued work is where of a real fraction of the actual workforce as I say they're around that they're actually more than one fifth of the UK workforce now.
[00:11:15] So it's taken on a lot of people who are sitting within that and now caught up into this so what when when it was not really having a big impact then perhaps people didn't really care too much.
[00:11:25] You didn't have such a voice but now it's got a bigger voice within because people are looking at saying well I'm not getting the rights I should do.
[00:11:31] There's there's actually a status within the UK where you can be employed for tax purposes, but at the same time not employed for state for employment rights purposes.
[00:11:42] So you've played the same employment taxes as you would if you were as an employee but you have no rights whatsoever.
[00:11:49] And it's a great example of showing how it's misaligned with where with what people expect or want we will believe you know if we're an employee the biggest benefit about being an employer is the protection you get around that.
[00:12:04] We're having that employment rights or whether that's actual employment benefits or whatever it may be you're getting some kind of add-on and we understand and we expect if we're going to go self employed.
[00:12:14] We're going to be an independent contractor that's fine we're probably going to earn more money because that's again why that works that way you're going to get your unit prices going to go up.
[00:12:23] But you'll understand you've got to look after yourself you're going to pay what you need to pay for health insurance and any of those sorts of things.
[00:12:31] You get that middle ground in the UK you're suddenly getting the same sort of money as what you get if you're employed but we're zero rights and that's where the legislation has to catch up that's where things have got to speed up.
[00:12:43] If I flip that and take that into the US the misclassification risk there comes again down to employment rights because the Department of Labor and whatever the IRS is obviously looking it from a tax perspective but the Department of Labor is looking it and going we need to make sure everybody's been paid.
[00:12:59] The correct rate of pay we don't want people to be sort of underpaid we want to make sure they get an overtime and also all of those sorts of statutory benefits.
[00:13:08] But there's a lot of people that are now working in the independent contractor space and doing it out choice. They're doing it but they might be working in sort of the lower value lower anyone's as a side hustle.
[00:13:22] They might be working in something as a bit more they've turned their sort of full time job into an independent contractor.
[00:13:27] But they want to take this on and they're happy and want to be an independent contractor but sometimes that choice is taking out of their hands because the different government agents come and then go well we actually think the way you're engaging you should be a W to employ.
[00:13:42] And again it needs to sort of catch up into the should be in my opinion. I think you've got two different types of independent contractors and I think there should be a way of a different way of handling each one.
[00:13:55] The first one is what I will turn the professional services contractor. They're earning a fairly high level of money. They're they're highly educated, it is highly skilled.
[00:14:08] And they have no issues with regards the right sort of the remuneration being put against them because they know if there's any challenges to what they're doing. They're walk away from that current assignment and find another one quite quickly. Those ones I don't think need protection.
[00:14:22] Those are the ones that are currently caught up in a protection but stifles their actual opportunity is because of being caught in that. If we flip it and go to the more transactional sort of your your over your left and those type of workers.
[00:14:35] I firmly believe they need protections and they need to be looked after. And those are the ones again, it's less of a highly skilled task that you're bringing in. That's where we need to make sure the legislation's in the right place.
[00:14:49] You know, as we've always had traditional employed or self employed. Legislation's been designed to support those two. It's not had this middle ground part of the what if you're.
[00:15:02] Personally choosing to be self employed but working on that sort of spectrum of our professional services or low low value gig. That's where legislation's got a catch up. That's where it needs to work out what it does for me. So I had the perfect world.
[00:15:19] You'd have two definitions of contingent workers. One sitting in the professional services and whatever you put that as a value like literally a day rate that they were earning and anything above that. Put some into that is to be determined but if you ran with that.
[00:15:34] You then legislate for the ones that need to protections down the bottom end allowing then. The the entrepreneurial spirit of the professional services once the go on of fraud and actually generate a lot more business. In DC.
[00:15:51] The digital landscape has made it harder or easier in this in this sense because there are. Way more ways to make money not just you know in person.
[00:16:04] You know doing a project in person in your town in your city or whatever would have you within an hour from you is now possible to. Sit at home work for someone in a different country or across the country. While simultaneously maybe after that you go do a.
[00:16:24] You know a job locally in person. How do you feel like the digital as an digital landscape made it harder easier for someone like you to stay in compliance because the.
[00:16:36] Obviously the stacks and balances have increased because there's a bit more of like a paper trail like a digital paper trail. But has it complicated things more in the sense that the sources of information or third of data coming to you is now just doubled or tripled.
[00:16:53] Yeah, the digital way to definitely the fire underneath this and turn it from being. And much more than to to what it is today and it alone get bigger because of that because so many people have got an opportunity to earn money from this.
[00:17:06] My son told me a short while ago.
[00:17:09] He's obviously based in the UK he's actually a money from from a gaming site, so he's actually had to complete a W8 Ben which is a US tax form so you can actually get paid from a company in the US because of him going on to one of these platforms and actually designing something.
[00:17:25] And it just shows you, you know that's that's a 19 year old boy, what man, sorry really. But who's gone and tripped an overseas tax raging because of a digital platform that he's working on. So the digital side of things has changed everything. It's made it now possible.
[00:17:42] What does that mean from a report in perspective as you say there's a paper trail there? So it's a lot easier now to audit and check and find things, but the challenges because now the the audience involved in it is so much larger.
[00:18:00] It's actually hard enough to necessarily find the individuals within there. So your chance of being found is a lot slimmer. But when you're found and any audit trials on it, it's going to be quite comprehensive.
[00:18:12] Now that the reason why I mentioned that is you're not trying to hide anything, but when you're trying to be in front of a compliance perspective and you're working with people.
[00:18:20] It's not uncommon for me to get the, but there must be a work around there must be a way of we can handle it this way or that way.
[00:18:28] So you get a lot more challenges than perhaps they used to be against what you'd say and what you did.
[00:18:35] And because then you're looking at so many different jurisdictions at times, you're aware of your knowledge of what's going on and what you might trip and what you might do has to become broader. So yeah it's definitely made it more challenging.
[00:18:53] I'm a bit of a crazy person I find that fun. So for me it's quite interesting. I think about lots of different locations and how they operate and how that might influence and interact with whoever I'm servicing at that point in time.
[00:19:08] But yeah it's not going to get an easier there's no way it's going to get an easier the part now is down to as I say the people writing the laws and what have you trying to catch up to that sort of trying to control it in a right way.
[00:19:22] You think potentially one method of controlling it could be kind of moving towards what you mentioned and one of our previous conversations.
[00:19:30] The common reporting standards that they have in the EU could definitely something that obviously it's going to be impossible to get the entire world on the same page. But let's say moving forward countries that may be interact with each other more like you know Europe.
[00:19:46] Like not your obviously Europe is in the country but the EU, the UK and let's say Canada and we're all of North America you could say.
[00:19:55] Is it do you think it's a good to you maybe envision a world where all those are kind of on a common reporting standards like they have in Europe or is that the most efficient way or not so much.
[00:20:05] Yeah so if I had a bit of detail for anybody on here the common reporting standards actually I check this is now over 125 countries worldwide who signed up for the common reporting standards and that's all effectively around the financial services to make sure people have got entities or businesses overseas.
[00:20:25] They can then those countries can report to one another and they tie in and they actually came from the US original version which is a fact come.
[00:20:35] And that came in again it's from financial services and the common report standards came up with that but that's a great example of showing 125 countries who signed up.
[00:20:44] We're now saying we're going to basically build our financial services industry on a common standard so that we can transfer that information and we agree we come together and report that information around to one another so it shows that things can align.
[00:21:02] But it's then a question of what you want to align on that. So immigration something that people are never going to align to they'll always run to their own immigration the requirements of people wanting to go to the US for instance.
[00:21:16] It's always going to be you know the demand is going to be much greater than the supply whereas if you go into even in countries in Europe you can go into like Greece.
[00:21:26] The demand is much lower than the supply so even in EU countries it's sort of like vast differences so they're never going to align on immigration but if it comes around to then.
[00:21:38] And then you can see how you control that if you've got somebody working in one site place and taxes being paid another how you do that because that's just business transactions that's not been necessarily been seen through the bank that's where.
[00:21:51] The advancement of the the the the common report standards or fact I can actually step up to actually improve that and it's shown that it can happen.
[00:21:59] Those are definitely the advances that are needed on a global scale to try and simplify the audit trail because the audit trail is there it's just difficult to find if you've got something that's more aligned on more countries then you can make it easier so it's not sort of.
[00:22:16] And then you go into Australia and you work on something in Australia and it's absolutely nothing like you've seen in the US or Europe.
[00:22:24] And the way that they run their business the terms the the systems that they're using nothing at all like it and that's you know if you can you, if I some of those things around the world you can definitely make it easier.
[00:22:35] Yeah, make it all more seamless which kind of leads me to my next question is you know obviously this change in work didn't just happen overnight you know it kind of began. In you know 20 30 years ago and say we started shipping more towards this type of work.
[00:22:56] Do you think this is potentially the natural evolution of work for people like full time work in the sensory work for one big company or company.
[00:23:11] And that's who you work for obviously that's already changed and in just our life and not our lifetime but in the last hundred years like from our grandparents to us or in an am sure the next generations.
[00:23:23] You know we're no longer staying at a company for 30 40 or your entire career in theory rare these days.
[00:23:30] To the point where now or at the point where maybe you stay at a company for a couple of years or maybe you never work for a company full time ever do you think that.
[00:23:39] Do you think that the natural evolution of this is going to be a world where no one really has.
[00:23:44] Traditional full time jobs anymore and you think that we're going to essentially the policies get after a just financial institutions and in tracking mechanisms are going to have to adjust to just accept that that is the new norm in the west at the very least.
[00:24:05] I'm you know, sure outside of the west might be different but it does seem like it's an unstoppable trend.
[00:24:11] I think you're right, yeah, I think it is an unstoppable trend and if you take it back and if you go to the industrial revolution is what dragged everybody into the same work.
[00:24:22] You're you're you're Monday to Friday working for the same employer happened then because it all got centralized you know going through the technology revolution where it's all being decentralized and people can work in whichever location as long as they've got access to power as long as they've got some kind of internet and Elon Musk has solved that problem for us.
[00:24:42] Then you can go and work from anywhere. So and people as you say is there it's really interesting to talk to people who are just starting off their careers and they're very much got that mindset I don't necessarily want to work for anybody.
[00:24:58] I don't want to be be beholden to an employer and there's the ability to do that now. They've got that ability to go and work for who they want when they want however they want and the nine to five it's not dead.
[00:25:13] I'm not trying to say that but they think it'd be very interesting to see where we are 20 years from now because there's a big challenge as to how.
[00:25:21] How much of the workforce is doing you know the nine to five anymore and how much are doing let you know their own sort of ways of doing it.
[00:25:28] As I say we're we're over one fifth of the workforce is contingent in the continuous space now there's an expectation that will double by 2050 I think it's sort of the times that they're throwing at that.
[00:25:39] So that's pushing as making big changes so it's it's gone a happen so I'm stopable force the only question is how long it takes to happen and then the journey that you go on to get there as well.
[00:25:51] And how you then make sure that again from a compliance perspective I think there's going to be a lot of elements associated to regularly speak to clients who are saying we've got workers who are now based in x, y and z country.
[00:26:04] We've got our engage with them. I'll tell me how we solve the problem.
[00:26:09] It's not about it's now we have to solve the problem. It's not an option not to solve the problem they need those workers because of what they've got and it just shows that the power is moving definitely moving towards the worker more than it was once on the employer.
[00:26:25] So I think it's a very interesting time we're in. Yeah and on that you know employee employer. Kind of dynamic that is going to exist within all these changes.
[00:26:39] You know previously you know and a previous talk you'd mentioned that they're you know reducing a permanent workforce for company let's say by 50% could make them look more efficient.
[00:26:49] Which was kind of a smoke and mirrors move a little bit because they ultimately ended up hiring a lot of contingent or part time workers are just contract workers. How to how to companies kind of handle this.
[00:27:03] From kind of just operating operating cost operating expenses how do they. How should they look to the future. To handle all this and then simultaneously for the person entering the workforce or the person that's been in the workforce.
[00:27:19] For a really long time and doesn't really know how to handle all this what kind of advice would you give to those two parties. Yeah, I mean as to how to handle this I expect to someone recently who's a company.
[00:27:34] And they've got I think free permanent employees and the other free or 400 workers they're working for are on the bench.
[00:27:43] They literally tap into whenever their clients want and that's their business model and if just taking some really good funding from somebody who likes that and they can turn the tap on and off according to what they want.
[00:27:56] So those type of business models are already there that's where it's already settled. If you're looking at how does a company best embrace the contingent space or what's the best ones for it. They have to be saying they have to change.
[00:28:12] They can't go and be the business it was so many years ago be that two years five years ten years they can't be that same business if they want to embrace and take on the contingent. Revolution.
[00:28:24] They've got us it back okay we've got to treat these like they're independent of our business. They can't work with them as their employees and have all of those old historic controls.
[00:28:34] If they don't and the companies that that thrive in that have changed or will change the companies that don't thrive and struggle are the ones that go no no no we we want to be in control of this that ultimately what they say and they've said in various different guys is but they want to be in control of.
[00:28:50] So it's the best thing you can get from anybody on this if you want to go and embrace it you've got to change you've got to come up with something different.
[00:28:59] It's definitely here to stay in my opinion it's just whether you want to be part of that if you're somebody who's worked.
[00:29:05] If you're a new I think new workers can embrace this a lot easier than somebody who's perhaps got you know a couple of decades worth of traditional working experience.
[00:29:14] The new workers is new to them this is like yeah this is what I want to do and it's quite a it's quite aligned with with their psyche.
[00:29:22] There's someone who's already been sort of working for an employer that might be multiple employers but as used to doing that employer employee relationship. Jumping away from there is a new is a new thing that they've got to adapt to and but it means again the change there.
[00:29:38] Is breaking away from the nine to five the plus point about working nine to five and I struggled to find anyone who works nine to five but if we use it as a concept at least it means you've got to start date a start time and a finished time.
[00:29:51] When you start working in the contingent side of things there is no real defined start and finished time.
[00:29:58] But that means that you can also spend whatever time you want during the day doing whatever you want to do but you might be sitting under a desk lamp or 11 o'clock at night finish enough a project that you've got to.
[00:30:09] So you got to get used to that side of things it's not a defined start and then it's now just.
[00:30:15] Random and whatever suits your lifestyle but that's that's probably one of the things that's really appealing to people who want to go into that lifestyle because it allows them and covid showed a lot of this you can live your life without having to go and commute.
[00:30:31] So many miles or many hours and you can carry on doing your work you can do whatever needs that your family demands upon you and you can still do your job and yeah you may well be working at a clock at night.
[00:30:41] But that's after you sort of done everything you need to do with your kids and Selt down and you're sort of like in a right space.
[00:30:48] So that the probably the key to all of this to embrace the future to adapt and go into the future don't try to use the models that's been using the past. There's got to be a changing models.
[00:31:06] Yeah, that's a great way to put it to embrace the future don't try to use the miles of the past. Speaking of embracing the future have you had. Interaction with some companies or systems or vendors that are.
[00:31:23] Really kind of at the tip of the spear really grasping this these changes well and that you've worked with and that really handle these kind of compliance issues or contingent workforce issues well.
[00:31:37] Yeah, I'm part of one that I just said which I think is amazing you know free permanent employees the rest are just you know contingents.
[00:31:45] The other good example of come across is a client that we addressed and they were we know we've got people who we must have in the contingent side of things they've got to be self employed.
[00:31:57] Tell us what we need to do will adapt will change will brew what what what what what what's needed. And that's exactly what we was able to do so we was able to tell them what I needed to adapt and change.
[00:32:08] But what we also did is then putting into context for them because a lot of people often look at this as a as a one size fits all and I don't think the the workforce of today in any company is narrow one size fits all.
[00:32:22] You've got traditional employees that were state additional you've got contractors who need to be employed because of the way you want to engage with them.
[00:32:28] And then you've got workers who can be self employed in the building contractors what you have to do is the partition your workforce in my mind before you go and put any strategic changes.
[00:32:39] Partition of workforce and work at the ones that are going to sit in which camps. So you're then only addressing if you're looking at making change to your business to bring on the independent contract element.
[00:32:50] You're only looking at a portion of the business not all of it and you're not then making big changes for everything which is a difficult to do.
[00:32:59] But will carry perhaps a level of risk you don't need to carry and if you're trying to take that internally as a program and trying to get some internal adoption onto that.
[00:33:08] If you say to them it's actually only say 25% of the business not 100% it becomes a lot easier for internal adoption to happen in doing that so again it's that same thing.
[00:33:17] Look and plan and understand and work out what is relevant and what's what's out scope because if it's how scope great leave it is is no changes everybody's happy with that.
[00:33:28] Nobody wants any sort of new changes going to businesses easy to do but if you want need to adopt and bring on stuff. Then you've got it into scope and you've got it in a scale that's perhaps more manageable than it was before.
[00:33:41] Interesting, all of some very group point and. I want to thank you so much for joining me today. It's been a great discussion and.
[00:33:50] Yeah, I know while the feature work for some people even for myself who like kind of was you know told growing up this is kind of how work works the landscape ahead can be a little scary but I it's.
[00:34:05] I like the idea that it does give you a lot of freedom and I think a lot of people appreciate that and that you know work is a.
[00:34:15] It has changing definitions and thank you so much for the insights on how to handle it and if anyone wants to reach out to you for if they have any questions and if they want to reach directly what's the best way for them to do that.
[00:34:30] Best way to find on LinkedIn. Which is I'm under the handle of Ray C Walker I think if you look on LinkedIn so it's nice to me to find.
[00:34:40] If you can't you can always use my work email address which is a nice easy one which is right at works on dot com. Awesome. Well, Ray thank you again and it's been great speaking with you.
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