Right People, Right Friction, Right Time: Building Trust in the Future of Hiring With Michelle Meehan

[00:00:00] Welcome to the EVOLVE Talent & HR Show. We're building the rooms where HR and talent leaders learn, connect and evolve. I'm Anna Morgan, and this is the space where people first leaders come for courageous conversations. Whether you're leading from the C-suite, emerging as a new voice, building community or driving change within your organization, this show is for you. Every episode brings voices that are driving change in the HR and talent community. We're going to get into the strategies, conversations, and the strategies.

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[00:01:00] New episodes come out weekly. Now it's your turn to EVOLVE. Welcome. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Evolve Talent and HR Show. I am your host, Anna Morgan. And today we are talking about friction. The definition of friction. Resistance that slows movement when two things rub against each other. Now, figuratively, anything that slows a process down or makes it harder, like extra steps, delays,

[00:01:30] or tension between people, or tension between people is friction. So today I'm excited to welcome my guest, Michelle Meehan, because we are going to talk about bad friction, how it is pointless and it causes hoops and friction and objections that frustrate our talent pool and prevent us from getting people in the door.

[00:01:55] So, right friction is purposeful and it actually checks on the people while building trust and confirms they are real, right? So, Michelle, welcome to the show. Why don't you introduce yourself for the audience that may not know who you are, what you're all about, and why we're here today?

[00:02:19] Yeah. Hi, everyone. Michelle Meehan. I am the CMO and VP of Customer Success at VETI. VETI is a background screening platform that handles everything from the moment you get an offer to the moment you're active and all those steps in between where friction can be pretty widespread.

[00:02:44] Yes. You like to say, right people, right friction, right time. Is that correct? Correct. Yes. A hundred percent.

[00:02:51] All right. So I told Michelle before we hit record that I was fired up that we are talking about friction and trust because personally, friction and trust have been one of those topics that just keeps showing up in my life, whether it's from a retail experience, virtual shopping or booking experience.

[00:03:16] I mean, the list could go on. So tell me about like how you guys came to this point and how you, you know, know what is the right friction and or reduce those steps so that you can build trust, validate who your talent pool is and get the best people in the best seat as soon as possible.

[00:03:40] So I'm going to, I'm going to sort of set the stage because we, you know, we talked a little bit about your pottery barn extravaganza.

[00:03:53] And, you know, I have, I have a similar story. So about two weeks ago, my parents are on vacation and my aunt is in an accident and she's really injured. And she lives five doors down from my parents. And, you know, being the good Italian girl, I was sort of raised to be, I automatically was like, oh my God, I have to make them food and I have to bring it down immediately. Definitely.

[00:04:16] But I couldn't really get there at the exact time they were leaving the hospital. So I'm like, okay, no worries. I'm going to buy all this food. I'm going to prepare all this food. I'm going to put it in my mom's second refrigerator in her garage. And then when my uncle gets back from the hospital, he can just pop over, grab the food, whatever. Next thing you know, hours have passed text from my mom. Please tell me everyone's okay.

[00:04:40] My sister and my uncle, right? Guys, I just got a text that my garage door was opened. Who was at the house? What's wrong? Is everyone okay? Like the garage is reporting on me, right? Right. And it's so ridiculous, but it kind of like, like it's capturing this world of friction, right? Because it's like everything. Yeah.

[00:05:05] And I'm using thing intentionally kind of wants to know like who we are, where we are, like what are we doing? And it's exhausting. But like at the same time, there's this weird thing, especially in like TA and HR where it's like you have to know that there's a person on the other side of that screen.

[00:05:22] And it's not just some technology that's gotten carried away with itself or a person at the other end who's made the technology get carried away with herself. So to me, it's like there's friction that's good, but then there's also friction that's questionable.

[00:05:40] And I think what we need to really think about is like, where does that line live? Because I don't know that we can say frictionless hiring is the thing because technology is too good at impersonating humans at this point. Right?

[00:05:54] So it's like, where do we make sure it works without disrupting the trust of the candidate or treating everyone like a suspect? Like my mom, like was sure that one of us did something wrong. And like, it was like, no, we're just delivering on the ethics you set forth as children. Like, I am just embodying the family culture and trying to feed you so you feel better. Yes. Yeah.

[00:06:21] No, I, I totally get it. And I would love for you to pull back the curtain a little bit for our audience. And I don't know if you have any kind of data to support it. But, you know, as I was transitioning my business, yes, I was seeing more bots and fraudulent candidates, but not to the extent that I'm hearing as I'm out conferencing and having conversations with leaders like you.

[00:06:48] What does that look like for the everyday sourcer or full cycle recruiter that, you know, is either carrying a reasonable rec load or like myself most times not so reasonable? Yeah, I think what's different now is that there's a level of scale and polish available that wasn't available to the masses. Right.

[00:07:13] So if you wanted to upskill your resume and make sure you were using all the right words to get past the, you know, keyword matching scenario, you wouldn't pay someone to rewrite your resume for you. Right. And, you know, that was well spent. Right.

[00:07:35] Right. And, and so you're like, okay, here's my $500, but not everybody had $500 to send to somebody. Now it doesn't matter who you are in the world. As long as you have access to a computer and to the internet, you can misrepresent who you are.

[00:07:53] And it's whether or not we are amplifying the elements and the credentials of the person that exists already. And, you know, equating that to like someone beefing up the resume for $500. So you don't get kicked out because of keywords or whether they're misrepresenting the person overall. And the person doesn't have those skill sets, never worked that job, never went to that university, never got that degree.

[00:08:20] They're using fake references. They're putting the keywords in the white font on the margins. That was an old hack. Yes. That was a trick, right? Yeah. That was a big trick. So funny because we were talking about the Gen Z, Gen X thing and they probably like, what do you mean? The white words.

[00:08:41] Well, yes. And the ATS is the great white whale and the LinkedIn debates on all of that. It just never stops. Same with the open to work banner conference. Yes. 100%. So I think what the thing is with VETI really is like we're sitting at this intersection every day because we're where employers can establish trust.

[00:09:06] And we're doing that through all types of things like identity, background screenings, onboarding, and then ongoing compliance. But what we need to make sure is we're not, you know, adding checks to just add checks. We're not wanting the candidate to assume all of the risk that the company is putting forth.

[00:09:26] It's really more about how do we make it, as you were saying, like right verification, right place, fast, clear, and respectful for the candidate. Because, yeah, let's be honest, like them pressing apply is not the last time they're judging your brand and whether or not they want to come.

[00:09:46] 100%. Yeah. And I mean, this has so many legs, right, from the employer branding to, you know, when I used to coach job seekers on buttoning up their socials and just saying, listen, listen, anything that you have that's visible on the interwebs, if you're not comfortable talking about it face to face with a hiring manager,

[00:10:10] then you probably want to, you know, minimize it or adjust your privacy settings, stuff like that. And as someone who learns differently, and I have always had a little bit of a rub with things that would, you know, disqualify people before they're even like in the process some, right?

[00:10:34] Like I love new leader assimilation and strength finders and post-hire things to be like, I'm an obliger and you're a questioner. And so here's the best ways for us to work together and things like that. I mean, I personally have not applied to a ton of jobs, you know, in the last four years.

[00:10:52] I mean, some for just experience and the candidate experience, but there have been times where I'm like, uh-uh, I am not going through, you know, doing my MBA to apply to the senior recruiter role. And so that to me is part of the friction process. And I know that you all pick up things kind of right at the end around the offer stage, which does the background and all the things.

[00:11:21] But that is so critical because as the recruiter that was hiring hundreds of people a year, you know, getting those phone calls at Friday at four o'clock being like, Is Janet starting on Monday and does she have a computer and a laptop and a trash can and pencils and pens? And I'm like, goodness, OK, well, we need a process for this. And, you know, that's the age old challenge between different departments.

[00:11:50] You have your HR tech team and then your background check team and then your HR business partners that are making sure everything's within the pay band and approved. So I get it. There's a lot of moving parts.

[00:12:05] But in service of if this is how someone starts with an organization and there's things falling through the cracks and lack of communication and say they're edge and edge with another, you know, opportunity, that's just a peace out. This guy's easier. Yes. And maybe the comp is the same and the, you know, hybrid remote is the same.

[00:12:28] So it's certainly something that I believe you guys are doing extremely well and organizations definitely need to prioritize a little bit more. I'm trying to think. I'll just pause there. I'm sure you have more to add. Yeah, I think that what you're saying is something that we're sort of looking at all the time. Right. So bad friction is asking for the same information repeatedly. Okay, I got it. Can we just pause here?

[00:12:58] So the same information repeatedly. I was just shopping at Ballard Design. Love them. The saleswoman was attentive. The sales gentleman was attentive. And I decided on a dresser. It's like, you know, one of those kind of banged up places where you can get a decent dresser for your teenager that you're not going to be upset that they ruin. So, when she put the tag on the dresser, she asked my name and my phone number. That was pretty much all I was getting.

[00:13:27] I was asked my phone number seven times. And I actually paid attention to this because I don't know if I knew I was coming into this conversation, but it's just how my brain works. And I'm like, okay. At first, I was like, well, she put it on the tag. Like, she didn't necessarily need to write it down. Me, though, like double entry, I probably would have done the same knowing that I would need the phone number to check the person out to see if they had an account, yada, yada, yada.

[00:13:57] Right? And it was a lovely experience. And I love the dresser. I don't know if I'm going to be able to lift it and get it out of the car, but that's a whole other story. But seven times at that point, after maybe the fourth time, I would have said to myself, girl, get a grip and write the phone number down. Yeah, but also you have to ask yourself, right? Like, why does this system require this person to get the phone number seven times? And I think for us, that's a thing too, right?

[00:14:27] Is if somebody is being passed along, like, okay, they're in the ATS, then they're coming to VETI, and then we go back to the ATS, right? And integration is not strong or you have, you know, three systems that aren't talking to one another. Yeah, and you have to have four different logins or you have to have a human to reset an ATS password.

[00:14:49] And if someone's out of the office or, you know, the security information wasn't passed along, then you are dead in the water. You can't do things. Right. And the test shouldn't be like, did we add a step? It should be like, does this step establish something important? And can we explain why it belongs here? Mm-hmm. Right. And asking for a phone number seven times, the answer is no. Ms. Ballard Design Assistant Salesperson, no.

[00:15:19] Exactly. Well, and that's where other little things, where communications, say, even with my speakers last year, right? And I over-communicate where you're going, what you're talking about, da-da-da-da-da. And then something as simple as like sending invites out for the speaker dinner, that it's a Luma invite. It has the address. Then I get a text that's like, what's the address for the restaurant?

[00:15:42] And I'm like, girl, Google that, you know, or go back to your, it's just, I don't know. And it could be my Gen Z, you know, stubbornness. But I wonder, and I'm seeing it across all generations. And I think it's a result of COVID that we are not trusting our problem-solving skills.

[00:16:04] Or we're so dang terrified to do something wrong that we're going to get sued or offend that we freeze. I also think there's a layer of like, there's too much. There's too much to do. Like, I'm on this podcast with you. Okay? While I'm on this podcast with you, in the corner of my screen, my chat is going off. At the top of my screen, my emails are going off.

[00:16:33] And on the right of my screen, my sister-in-law is texting me about Christmas pajamas and whether or not I think that they'll be great. I'm like, I'm going to take a minute and respond to the Christmas pajamas. Do you know what I mean? Like, I need to be here. But even when you try to block those things out, you know, your phone is cataloging all those things with its little bubbles and one, two, three, four, five.

[00:17:01] And your brain is cataloging them too, right? And so it's like... Does that lead us to the friction hangover? Because I'm kind of feeling hungover at this moment. I mean, the garage told on me. I'm hungover. Garage told on me. You know, I'm trying to keep my mom's anxiety in check while she's across the country. And, you know, it doesn't work.

[00:17:25] But the thing is, and this is something that I wasn't expecting when I got in this space, is like, if there's an operational inefficiency... Right. ...that operational inefficiency often creates, like, a level of silence. Yes. Right. So the candidate's like, oh, my gosh, what happened? Like, and then the employer or the staffing firm is like, I need this person to start tomorrow.

[00:17:51] And, like, it all comes down to the clinic, like, collected blood. But they didn't collect enough blood to do all the tests that they needed to do. And so, like, there's this background thing of, like, we can't control it, but we can at least control the message to both sides. Sort of tuck everybody in. Like, nobody's committed a major crime here. They'll likely start their job in a day. We just need more blood. Right.

[00:18:18] So there's a level of communication that I think tamps down some of that exhaustion that you can add to the process, which also, I think, helps build trust for the employer brand. A hundred percent. Who's our candidate. Any experience, right, applying for a role, attending an event, going to a meal, taking a vacation, like, or I always think about the show Below Deck, right?

[00:18:46] The captain and the steward and the staff, and they are studying everyone's preferences, right? And then they build the experience around those preferences. And it's important our job as hiring authorities to be the boat ship captain and to let people know where they're going, why they're going, what they can expect, and how long it's going to take.

[00:19:15] And that was a part of my role as a recruiter that I felt was so important because not only are we helping people make a life decision about their career because it impacts their family, their loved ones, their kids, where they're going to live, all of those things, that I wanted to be crystal clear this is the process. And that worked for me.

[00:19:40] And, you know, luckily I had the right, most of the right tools in place or I built in the hacks and safeguards so things didn't fall through the cracks. So tell me a little bit more about, like, what TA teams are experiencing now. I know we talked about AI applications and you're seeing more, what is it, synthetic identities and proxy interviews. Those are fancy terms that I'm not super up to speed with.

[00:20:09] But I do know what MacGyver means. I love it.

[00:20:42] What? MacGyver, what does that mean? So anyway, that's where that reference came from. And we thought it was hilarious. That's amazing. I still love it so much. There are some things that I'm like, wait, what? I was on a previous company. I was on a call and I said to the team, I can't remember the story. All I know is I said to the team, I carried a watermelon.

[00:21:10] And the one girl, so young intern, is like, what do you mean? Why did you bring a watermelon? And I'm like, no, like, you know, in Dirty Dancing, like she so doesn't know what to say. So she just is so intimidated. She's like, I carried a watermelon. She goes, what's Dirty Dancing? And I'm like, oh, my God, this is like a cultural moment. Yeah. So, yes, 100%.

[00:21:35] Sometimes you, like, find yourselves in those conversations and you're like, oh, my goodness, what happened here? Those conversations make you better parents because then you're like, oh, hell no. My kids are going to know what E.T., the Princess Bride, the Wizard of Oz, Terminator, like the classic that Gen X grew up with. Dirty Dancing, Breakfast Club, all the things. So, all right.

[00:22:01] So back to those fancy schmancy terms, synthetic identities and proxy interviews. Yeah. I mean, what does that mean? In layman's terms, it's like the person is not real. Okay.

[00:22:13] And the person you're interviewing is not a live person, but an AI generated version of a person who is able to respond in time correctly to the questions that they are being asked by a video interviewer. So some of these things are more prone to remote hires or offshore teams. Yes.

[00:22:38] I know that there was, like, some crazy incidents where one guy was, like, a whole entire team of people and nobody knew it was one guy at an offshore team. So stuff like that is really kind of insane. But then you also have this, you know, every conference we've been going to, the two of us for the last two years has been like, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, right? You got to know it. You got to know it. Everybody's using it.

[00:23:06] And so there's this level of balance that we need to find where we're like, we appreciate that you can use the tools. The tools should be an enhancement to the way that you think. They're not inherently bad tools, right? But are they being used in a way that is enhancing your output?

[00:23:28] And, you know, one of the things that I think that is really hard is, like, whether or not, not whether or not, but, like, more how we're viewing the process, right? Because I'm a brand person, customer experience, and now I'm, like, sitting inside this hiring process. And now you're, like, the job seekers agent will connect with your hiring manager agent.

[00:23:54] And, you know, the conversation we had at Evolve back in January with Kyle Samuels was when candidates have access to the same tools and they can customize a cover letter and, you know, hyper-personalize a resume to a job description and create access to ways to do outreach messaging, then you're looking at a sea of candidates that all look the same, right?

[00:24:22] And, you know, where I've accelerated my AI expertise recently and, you know, I'm really diving in and doing some things I'm proud of in service of using agents to elevate my own business. But through that process, I, for the longest time, was like, oh, AI is never going to get rid of recruiters.

[00:24:43] And, you know, on one hand, there's so many steps in the process that can be supported with the tech and minimize the friction and the lift that we used to have to do, which was the exciting thing when this all just first came out. I was like, man, I don't have to mainly take notes. And I have so much help to build a business case to make a case for this candidate.

[00:25:06] It certainly changed how I was sourcing and what was possible for the candidates I was representing, which ultimately helped me put more people to work. But with the current state, with the fraud applications and what you're describing, I'm like, we're always going to need recruiters because there's going to have to be that human-to-human element of discernment and trust, right?

[00:25:30] And you all do the work in service of building the trust with the candidate and embodying the employer brand through those communications, right? But, you know, if your actions don't match your mission statement, then people are suspect, right? They're like, right. I think I might take that phone call for that other role.

[00:25:53] And then I've seen a shift between people almost being timid or shy or they weren't very vocal about how they were using AI, I would say, a year and a half ago as I was, you know, out networking and stuff. And now it's like, oh, have your agent call my agent and we'll do an agent party and, you know, everyone's doing it. And it's so much more like accepted now.

[00:26:20] I'm interested, you know, I'd love to see the data on organizations where some are like, nope, can't even be on our VPN. And I'm like, well, people are going to be using it on their phone. Right. And I don't, you know, and I understand compliance and training and auditing is a whole other ballgame. And that is also friction in itself, right? For companies to say, yeah, I need a tool like this.

[00:26:50] A lot of times they're still dealing with the friction three steps prior to getting to offer to where they would potentially need you. Right. I don't know where I was going on that, but now back to you. No, no, no. No, but I think what's interesting really is like for me specifically, right, because I'm not a compliance person. It's like the lens we have to look through or I'm looking through and other people in other seats might look at it differently.

[00:27:17] But the one I'm looking at is like less how do we catch every bad actor and more how do we build a process that creates trust without punishing the people using it? Yeah. Right. Because we don't want the people using it to feel as though there's this barrier between them and the job that they're trying to start. That's why. Sorry. How do you establish trust without making candidates feel like suspects?

[00:27:46] Again, prior to all this tech, recruiters had a bad rap for being interrogators anyway. So. Right. I mean, it depends where you use useful friction. Right. So are you establishing an identity? Are you getting a required credential? It's the question is like, are we adding a step or does the step establish something important? And we can explain why it belongs here?

[00:28:17] Because if you can explain it, then that's really that's not a design issue. Right. If you can explain it and tell the candidate before you ask for it, they're sort of expecting it. And there's this level of confidence when it comes across their desk. Right. If you can't explain it, then that's where in the design issue comes in. And then, you know, you have to sort of balance, like, how do we keep it human centered without being risk blind?

[00:28:47] Right. Because risk is real, especially in this environment. But, you know, again, not everybody is a bad actor. Some people are using AI in the way that we want to see them use AI when they get to their desks and start at our company. Yeah. Yeah. For a brainstorming partner, you know, expands your capabilities. And, you know, for a classic example for me is like installing a CRM, a highly customized one.

[00:29:17] And as your business evolves and you get inbound leads and have conversations, you know, your partners are asking for products or services that aren't quite outlined or established from what you had originally thought six months ago when you mapped out the whole process.

[00:29:34] And being able to use AI with the right agents and prompts to go make those adjustments to the form or the landing page, you know, is huge for me because normally I'd have to call my tech guy and then my website person or get some administrative help.

[00:29:52] And all that allows me to be less in my business and more in service of future successful Anna and being able to move with the industry, too, which is we know timing is everything. Right place, right time, whether you're a job seeker, a hiring manager or entrepreneur in this space. So I had another great question, but I didn't want to stop you in the middle of what you were saying.

[00:30:20] No, I mean, one of the things I think, you know, is there's a level of people are willing to submit for things that sort of make sense to them. Right. Nobody wants to have a nurse work on them that did not go to nursing school when they're in the hospital. Right. Like they want to know like that woman or man's credentials are up to date. They know what they're doing there. They know how to properly dispense medication. All those things have sort of been covered off on.

[00:30:48] So people feel kind of good about that. And there are some tests that they do where they check fitness to like work in a warehouse. Like, can you climb a ladder? Can you carry 50 pounds? Yeah, I worked in retail that was hard surface granite and marble and flooring.

[00:31:08] And we couldn't recruit out of Marshalls and TJ Maxx because they weren't the right profile for that environment, nor did they have aspirations to be a forklift driver. So we had to focus on recruiting from gyms and fire, firehouses and police and retired vets and things like that to mix it up.

[00:31:31] But the thought I had earlier, so two and a half years, myself and several other like recruiter influencers did ask a recruiter on LinkedIn audio, which is like a live podcast where we would invite job seekers into this audible room, kind of like a clubhouse. But it was on LinkedIn.

[00:32:18] For their social security card up, you know, too early in the process. Or I had to coach people to pay attention to look at all the details in the signature. You know, if an email was off, can you verify it's actually a part of that company?

[00:32:37] And, you know, the friction part, I think, for candidates, too, sometimes, especially Gen X and older, is how come I can't get someone on the phone to just verify they're a human? Right. Yes. But I liked what you were saying.

[00:32:52] Like, if we go back to the cruise ship captain or the below deck captain, it's like if we know where we're going and that is communicated in an empathetic, human first way, saying we see you, we hear you, we understand you. So now, in order, you know, to give you the best experience, to know what it's like to be a part of our organization, this is what you can expect.

[00:33:19] And, you know, there's no shame in that game, even if it's going to take a period of time or, you know, there's a bigger hoop to go through. But like you said, as long as there's transparency and all people want, especially job seekers, is just updates, transparency and honesty. Like, cut me loose if I'm not the right fit so I can move on to the next.

[00:33:44] But don't cut me loose 60 seconds after I hit submit on the application because now you've wasted my time. It's phenomenal. You know, you think about building tech now and going through the experience as a full cycle recruiter or hiring manager or focused on customer experience, you know, and it's also asking for feedback.

[00:34:10] And I think that's a huge part of reducing the friction is just asking, how did we do? And asking that also sets us up for success in the future. If we missed a couple steps, own it and then back into engineering how to do that better moving forward.

[00:34:32] And the thing is, with the technology and the way it's being developed today, you can modify a lot of those friction points that people felt were uncomfortable along the way very quickly. You're no longer going back to, like, a dev team, you know, who has to code it in, then they have to QA it and all of those things. This is moving at a much faster pace where you can push it out, test it, doesn't work, come back, modify it and keep iterating in a way that really works for everyone who's part of the process.

[00:35:01] So, like, there is friction in coming back and saying, oh, that didn't work and let's modify it and test it again. But it's purposeful friction. It's not clumsy. You know? Yeah.

[00:35:13] So, if you, you know, could say to one TA leader, if this was a magic wand and you could remove one aspect of a friction step in your process, does one come to mind that you see commonly with your clients or in your conversations? So, I don't think there's one because I think that it's very different based on the type of company that there is.

[00:35:43] But I do see friction points across every customer. And so, I'd probably modify that a bit to say, like, map every point where you're asking a candidate for information or proof. And, like, for each point, ask, like, do we need this and why now? And do we already have it? Your phone number, for example. Like, have we explained it? Like, what happens if this step fails?

[00:36:12] Like, I think that doing that exercise will actually show you more where friction is protecting trust and where it's simply covering off for a broken process. Yeah. That one individual point. And sometimes I think, I used to always think of our neuro-spicy job seekers and those that have some accessibility issues.

[00:36:36] And I would always be asking, like, are we asking any of these questions up front if they need some sort of accommodations or support going into the very beginning of the process? And not looking at it at the very end once you've made them an offer. To your point, mapping out those, you know, processes and steps, you know, from screen to higher.

[00:37:02] One of the things I've found interesting is the number of steps that candidates have gone through before they speak to a human. And, again, this is my Gen X strong opinion. Like, if I'm not either with someone within the first three steps, I'm probably, like, peace out. I don't know how to feel on that. Because there's some really savvy. I just want to know that someone's, like, caring and helping me at the other end and where I live in the process.

[00:37:31] So I was actually recently on the iSimSignal podcast with Trent Cotton and Steve White. And Trent had this really, like, bold point, which was I think everybody needs to work with their design team and map out for people, like, where you are in the process when there's a human and when it's automation. And then this way there's no surprise and we, like, take down that veil.

[00:37:56] And to me, there's something, again, about that level of transparency that makes you less frustrated than, you know, the other day when I was calling the bank and I said representative 15 times because I did not know what button to push. None of them addressed what I was asking. So I just kept yelling louder and louder, representative, representative. I feel so seen and understood right now.

[00:38:23] I mean, that's how you should open your application process. I promise this is not when you try to call the bank and you're screaming representative. We will do better. But then, you know, I also think about the power of an incredible intake meeting with a hiring manager, right? Like, that was my secret sauce that I think contributed to the success I've had over the years.

[00:38:49] And so why can't we apply that to our job seekers and ask those upfront intake, you know, preferences? Again, like the boat ship captain, what is important to them? Not only will it give you insight into how they think, how they problem solve, what's important to them, helping you as the hiring team focus on the right things.

[00:39:13] If it's a hard to recruit candidate, that's even better information to make the experience outstanding versus tolerable. Right. Right. And also synergistic. Because have you ever gone to an interview where you meet the HR person or the recruiter person and you're like,

[00:39:34] and then you meet the person live who like will be your manager and you're like, oh, okay. That seems like a bit of a disconnect. Like, that's not really what they said the company was like. And that's not really what they said the culture was like, right?

[00:39:54] You want to have that synergy and the synergy creates trust and the transparency that you can provide at the beginning gives people confidence to move throughout the process. And actually, when they get to us, less frustration because they're like, I really want to work here. So I'm just going to check these couple of boxes to make sure, you know, I have all my credentialing.

[00:40:16] And if, you know, I'm a pharmacist, I'm not colorblind and I'm dispensing the right medication for CVS because I can recognize pink from blue. Like, you know, cool. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, cause I'm excited. One of the wildest roles I've recruited for was for an ag tech company in Canada.

[00:40:36] By the way, I had to go through a whole new geography course to understand the landscape of Canada, which is massive and very diverse. And, you know, I was recruiting veterinarians to take care of the cattle on the farms along with, you know, pesticides and other vet services and beef sales. Wow.

[00:41:07] But there were a lot of nuances in there that I had to be very clear on. And so once I was able to get to know the candidate, then I could set those expectations and say, okay, well, you know, I'm going to present this. This is what you can expect from me. This is the whole process. You know, the must-haves, nice-to-haves and, you know, would disposition you criteria per se.

[00:41:37] So it was wild. It was crazy. I filled a canola breeder and I couldn't even pronounce half the words in the job description. So, and I didn't have AI like I do today. That's awesome. What else are we forgetting to talk about? In service of our audience, you know, future TA, HR leaders that are human first.

[00:42:03] You know, I love the tech in service of giving us back our time and, you know, getting back in community. As far as, you know, either teams hiring or people moving through the process as a job seeker, is there any, you know, golden nuggets you want to make sure that a job seeker knows, like, red flag, do this or don't do that.

[00:42:30] And then hiring teams around friction. And I'm hearing they need to map things from beginning to end. Yes. Because you know what? They can't eliminate friction altogether. Frictionless hiring is almost like the wrong goal because as technology is getting better at manufacturing, you know, fake, convincing candidates. Right. Some friction is necessary.

[00:42:59] But I think, so TA's job isn't to eliminate it, but it's to put the right friction in at the right place without making every candidate pay for every bad actor. Bad actor. And I think that that's kind of like the balance. There's always been this like 80-20 rule. Like any technology, you're going to have 80% of people do good with it. 20% of people are going to do bad for it, but you're building for the 80%.

[00:43:25] And, you know, who knows with what's coming out with AI, like all the developers being like, actually, we think this is a bad idea. Like maybe the 20% is a lot higher in this case. I don't know. Well, we won't know until the pendulum swings again.

[00:43:40] But with what we know today, right, it's like use friction where friction is necessary, but make sure that it's not because you have a poorly designed process. Yeah. And I mean, for myself.

[00:43:59] What you made me think about where friction is necessary, like I would, and I don't know if job seekers necessarily realize this or it's just human nature to take into account when you're evaluating a candidate. And, you know, whether this is right or wrong, like it's just human nature to pay attention to how people receive the information, right, on their interview process.

[00:44:27] And pre-COVID, when people would show up way too early and I had like a stacked lobby of people, I'm like 10, 15, 20 minutes, like totally good, but like an hour and a half. Like you're taking up, you know, a seat in my lobby that I need because now I have people like standing around.

[00:44:49] Or like we mentioned earlier, if it's something that you can Google or ask AI or go back to an email and check, it's just like pause before we make that ask or that question. And that is also the same on the hiring manager side where it's like, okay, if I had to go through this process and I love hiring managers.

[00:45:13] Hiring managers, if you have not gotten in your ATS or your tech and done what your everyday recruiters do, that's the one thing that Anna Morgan wants you to do this week. Like just see how long it takes to, you know, open a resume, review it, make notes, decide if you're going to move them forward or disposition them and why. Because that is a huge part of that mapping process. Right.

[00:45:43] It's like why that undercover boss show is so revealing, right? You know, I read about this guy on LinkedIn. I can't remember like who he was or where he was from. So it's just, I read his story. He basically was going after HR. Like you have to fill this wreck. You have to fill this wreck. You have to fill this wreck. And HR's recruiting team was like, we can't fill the wreck. Like we're not getting people from it. The market is not looking for this type of job.

[00:46:12] So he applied for the job and he got kicked out of the system. And there was one word in his resume that for whatever reason has like a double meaning and the system kicked him out. Like, so to your point, if he had not done that, he was holding back all these qualified candidates like himself from participating. Right.

[00:46:35] So if people are not going in and taking on the process themselves and seeing what it really takes to get across the finish line, they almost have a false sense of what's possible. Yeah. From their recruiting team and from their HR team. Yeah. And, you know, your frontline full cycle recruiters and sourcers are working so hard to get the right people, you know, in front of you. Right.

[00:46:59] So it is worth the time and investment and to use tools that are savvy enough that build trust and accelerate the onboarding and, you know, connection of that future employee to the mission, vision, values of the organization that they are going to be representing on that Monday. You know. So. On that Monday. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:47:28] Well, you are on the travel circuit for conferencing. And part of that is to share the good work that you are doing and get out there to meet, you know, new practitioners and see how you can be of service. Where are you headed the rest of this year? So the team is actually headed to three additional shows. We're just coming off of the SAA Collab X show in Dallas.

[00:47:57] So the team was there last week. Next up is Staffing World. I've not been to that. Is that in Orlando again? It's not in Orlando this year. It's actually in Colorado. Oh. So about 45 minutes outside of Red Rocks in Boulder. So some of the team will be there.

[00:48:20] Then the whole team and like, I don't know, their mothers, their dogs, their children will be at HR Tech happening in Vegas. Nice. And I'm not taking Lily to Vegas yet just because. No. They're not that friendly. She can make the flight. I take her to Utah with us. And she's, you know, been out to San Francisco to like ERE in the past.

[00:48:47] But I just, well, in HR Tech being my first time, I'll just be showing off her picture a lot. I'm sorry. Just make sure for HR Tech, since this is your first time, I feel like I have to share wisdom that you have to wear a very walkable shoe. Yeah. Mandalay Bay Convention Center is ginormous. And it's down this epic hallway of length. I swear it doesn't matter what shoes I wear every year. I leave with like blisters and sore cheeks from smiling.

[00:49:16] So wear good shoes. And rub your cheeks at night. Your face hurts from smiling. And then I have like a TMJ issue. And then I'm talking so much and I'm so excited because I'm in community and I've been like, you know, isolated for several weeks. And I'm like a hotel bed by myself. And then I bite the inside of my cheeks. And I get a canker sore. Because then I'm like.

[00:49:45] My mom would say, make sure to take lysine with you. Lysine, the vitamin, helps with canker sores. I don't know my mom. You know, in addition to food delivery, she's pumping people with vitamins at all times. Yeah. Welcome to the Ortuzo family. But I'm ready to be adopted. I would sit right in. Such good food. The oldest of five Catholic family, you know, we feed each other, roast each other. We pray together and party together.

[00:50:15] I love it. I love it. Yeah. So HR Tech. And then the last show we'll be at is SIA's Healthcare Summit. Okay. Which is in, I think it's called Arlington, Texas. It's basically Austin. Okay. Good deal. Yeah. Well, and then whenever I decide when I'm having my next Evolve IRL event, hopefully you and the people. I loved your conference, by the way. Can I just take a minute to say that before we close? Yes. I loved your conference.

[00:50:42] I loved your conference because I thought it had some of the best content I've ever seen at a conference. Like, legit everything, every single room I sat in, I learned something. I do not think it is like for HR Tech people alone. Like, it is applicable to any person in business whatsoever.

[00:51:05] The content went from like supremely cerebral to how to calm your body down in like a quick few yoga poses, which I really needed that one, by the way. But like a quick few yoga poses to like get you out of your chair and get your nervous system back under you. Shout out to Maude Moreno. She was fantastic. She was amazing. She was amazing. And I would love to have her back.

[00:51:32] And Jess Miller-Meryl, year one, did how to do breath work at work. And John Baldino did an incredible session on the power of gratitude. Gratitude. Yes. Fantastic. Yes. So for all of you listening, you can watch all of this great content on demand on behalf of our partners and sponsors.

[00:51:57] So if you're interested, definitely make sure that you're following the Evolve page because we've got some exciting stuff coming. So thank you for the kind words. Yes. No. Wonderful content. Congratulations. That you and the team showed up and supported and that just made my day. So I really appreciate it. Absolutely. Absolutely. We love people doing great things in this space.

[00:52:23] Well, I believe that HR and talent should be in the same room to build trust and reduce friction. I mean, like it comes down to that because the organizations are so vast of what an HR business partner is responsible for, for a 500 person company, 5,000 and 15,000, right? And understanding is everything. Understanding accelerates to trust.

[00:52:48] And then, you know, if we understand each other's function and goals in how we operate, getting tools like the content that was shared at Evolve, then we are able to continue drinking from the fire hose and elevating the world of work with the focus of the human first, people first leadership.

[00:53:14] Because I still feel like regardless of the tech and tools and, you know, fancy things that the robots can do, that it's always going to come down to face-to-face, a conversation, heart-to-heart, you know, a connection of sort that is not trainable by the tech that I see today.

[00:53:36] It's getting a lot more accelerated and savvy. But, you know, there's always going to be a place. And, you know, for job seekers too, like this is also your reminder that make sure when you're building your strategy, it's a three-legged stool where you're applying, you're digitally networking,

[00:54:00] and then get your butt out in community, whether it's a local networking, you know, pitch group or a meal or a regional conference, because people forget it only takes one person to say, like, I believe in what you're doing or hell yes, and be that person that opens the door that can change your life. So, and I'm just grateful to have had people like you and your team in my corner since the beginning.

[00:54:30] And I've just had such a great time today on this conversation. Me too. Thank you so much for having me. Yes. And now we're going to end this recording so I can see what Christmas pajamas you and your sister are looking at. Thanks, everyone, for listening. Please subscribe, follow, share it with a friend. And you'll have Michelle's information below.

[00:54:54] If you're a company that wants to build trust and reduce friction, definitely reach out to Michelle and the Vetti team. I know you will be in great hands. Michelle, thank you for being here today. So appreciate you. And can't wait to hug you IRL soon. I know, I know. See you in Vegas. Thanks for joining the Evolved Talent in HR show. If the conversation landed, share it. Tell it later. Pass it forward. That is the multiplier in action. One connection at a time, building momentum across our community.

[00:55:24] And that is what Evolve is. We build the rooms where connection compounds into impact. So don't sleep on the in-person experiences, the IRL conferences, the executive tables, the fringe events, our community. Show up. That's where the multiplier multiplies. If you know, you know. Head over to evolve-conference.com to see what's evolving and how to stay connected. We'll see you next time.