Rethinking Resilience: Building Trauma-Informed Workplaces That Actually Support People

[00:00:00] Welcome to the EVOLVE Talent & HR Show. We're building the rooms where HR and talent leaders learn, connect, and evolve. I'm Anna Morgan, and this is the space where people-first leaders come for courageous conversations. Whether you're leading from the C-suite, emerging as a new voice, building community, or driving change within your organization, this show is for you. Every episode brings voices that are driving change in the HR and talent community. We're going to get into the strategies, conversations, and conversations.

[00:00:30] and movements that matter. Because here's what we know. Every conversation matters. Every introduction, every shared experience. It creates momentum that extends far beyond the room. And that is the EVOLVE multiplier. When we collaborate, overcompete, when we connect with intention, the opportunities, the relationships, and the impact compound across our entire community. You've tuned into a podcast, but this is actually your connection to the entire EVOLVE ecosystem.

[00:01:00] New episodes come out weekly. Now it's your turn to EVOLVE. Welcome. Most employee well-being spending is a liability shield dressed up as strategy. If your resilience program teaches people to breathe through conditions, you've decided not to fix. You're not supporting them. You're managing your own risk. And you cannot hire your way around it. Resilience is not a personality trait you can screen for in interviews or install through a training. It is a byproduct of the

[00:01:30] environment you built. When capable people keep burning out in the same role. Stop looking for tougher candidates and start auditing the role. Bam. That's the episode, friends. My name is Anna Morgan, and I am humbled and grateful to host the EVOLVE Talent in HR show today with one of my friends that I met at, guess what? A conference.

[00:01:53] And this woman has been one of my favorite people to hug and high five in the hallways. Stephanie, welcome. You are the founder and CEO of the Wounded Workforce. I'm so excited to have a conversation with you today. For over what? Two decades?

[00:02:09] In HR, you have been supporting Fortune 500, startups, construction, high growth, and then you left. So welcome to the show. I'm excited to dive in. But what sparked the beginning of that decision to say, peace out, corporate. I'm doing my own thing and I'm going to elevate the world of work through the wounded workforce.

[00:02:37] I love it. The peace out decision. I want to say it was super strategic, but it wasn't. It was kind of just like some messy Stephanie action, but it worked really well. I mean, you know, I talk about this and I talk about my career. I am one of those weird people who got into HR on purpose. I intentionally, you know, went to school. I got my degree in HR management and business. I was like, let's go.

[00:03:02] I know. I know. I know. And so, you know, HR is something that I'm really passionate about. And from the beginning, it was really about that special something when we can make sure an organization is successful and also individuals are successful in that same moment.

[00:03:20] That was always kind of that driving mission for me behind the work I was doing. But I would have to remind myself of on some of those really hard days, weeks, months in HR. And, you know, it was everything from an intern to the head of HR. And I will tell you, it was getting to that seat, the head of HR, the lady in charge, so to speak. Yes. You see everything.

[00:03:45] Well, you see everything and you're honestly a lot less in charge than you hope you are. Like so many of the things that I hoped I would have a chance to really change about the workplace. I didn't really have the same capacity or backing I was hoping to. By the time I got into that seat and I was like, you know, I'm sure there are organizations out there where I would have that opportunity.

[00:04:10] But I also was like burned out after navigating COVID and everything that went along with that. Yeah. And I said, let me look at what I'm actually good at and I'm actually passionate about. And it's about being a catalyst. It's about getting things started. And at a certain point as the head of HR, that's great. But also you have to kind of see things through as well. Kind of be that steady Eddie, keep their wheels on the bus at some point. I'm really not that person.

[00:04:38] So it's like, I think it's time to jump out and go out on my own. And I really started with HR consulting and I was like, I'm going to do, you know, fractional. I'm going to do HR consulting, see what happens. And the beautiful part of, you know, working for yourself and entrepreneurship is you get to kind of find the space to explore those things that you're more excited about, more passionate about. And I actually, you know, you mentioned I spent some time in construction. I spent about a decade in the construction industry.

[00:05:07] So I was convinced that's where I was going to find all my first clients. So I went to a conference. I went to a construction HR conference to try and drum up some clients. No clients from the conference. That's okay. I did come up with the ideas for the wounded workforce. We were having a great conversation around diversity, equity, inclusion in the construction industry. Amazing work happening by some amazing people and not the results we'd hoped to see.

[00:05:36] The very next conversation was a conversation about the mental health crisis in construction and how more individuals in construction die by suicide each year than all on-the-job fatalities combined. I was like, whoa. Can I ask a follow-up question? Yes. Around the mental health crisis. Do you recall any data around addiction, alcoholism tied to those data points?

[00:06:07] Yes. So also specific in construction, individuals are diagnosed with a substance misuse disorder one and a half times the population. That is a low number because it's people representing diagnosis. There's also, we have one of the highest rates of overdose deaths in the industry and is highly related to fentanyl opioid overdoses.

[00:06:33] We have seen an amazing 20% reduction in overdose deaths in the industry. And I am a big believer in having Naloxone or Naloxone on you or on your job site because it can give someone a chance for better choices or better opportunities the next day. So that's been a huge benefit. But yes, thank you for calling that out. There is, you know, we talk about suicide prevention a lot in construction. I'm very passionate about it.

[00:07:02] There's all the other stuff, all the proactive stuff, which I get really, that's really my passion. So having these conversations, I was like, you know, these are different conversations, but there's a similar through line and that's trauma-informed practices. It's trauma-informed care. Trauma-informed care, yeah. I just wanted to read a book. I was like, I should read a book about trauma-informed workplaces.

[00:07:27] I could go to my construction clients and say, hey, I've got to solve for some of the pushback you're getting on DEI because we'll start by supporting and then build out kind of how we look at these systems and some of these challenges. I could not find what I was looking for. And so I said, well, crap, I better build it myself. You're going to have to write it. And so that is how the Wounded Workforce was born.

[00:07:53] I decided to just start and start finding ways to get trauma-informed practices into the world of work and use my workplace expertise to make it actually work and make sense in the environments we exist in now. And the rest is history. We'll see. We'll see. We're still going strong. And I am so grateful to be able to do this work. It is amazing.

[00:08:19] I remember hearing in Orlando at the Workhuman Live conference and darn it, I wish I could remember the actual data around the number of people that are going in the fractional HR route. And I am here for it.

[00:08:34] And it makes so much sense because as the TA side, having worked in a wide variety of industries and sizes, public, private, you know, you've seen the construct of HR in so many different capacities and how they lead and what they own and who they report to.

[00:08:54] And so having resources with such a level of expertise, you know, I could see how it would make so much sense for an organization, whether it's construction or not, that is facing some challenges that you've helped your clients with in the past. Be able to get your expertise and your consulting and resources and then you're in and out, right?

[00:09:21] Setting them up for a foundation or a period of time to launch X initiative. Correct. Yeah. I am a big believer in setting people up to do the work. Yes. I do not. Not do it for them. Not do it for them. And I want to set you up for, you know, success to be able to do this, do it the way that works for your organization. Let it evolve with your organization.

[00:09:45] I mean, so much about trauma-informed workplaces is about evolving our culture, about changing our culture. We know that's a lift. We know that's a change. That's a process. And being in it. And it's so scary and uncomfortable for leaders too. Yes. Probably my hunch is that they were likely not trauma-informed trained in the beginning,

[00:10:08] which has created the crack in the foundation per se that is exacerbating some of the people problems, you know, and the flag for help essentially. Yeah. You know, it's so interesting. I think, you know, there are so many great things we've seen come out of a really tricky, kind of crappy time over the course of the last few years in the world of work.

[00:10:34] And, you know, one of the good things was we got more comfortable talking about people being human at work, mental health at work, all of those things. The greatest silver lining that I've seen from COVID is that employers and employees were forced to look at each other as humans with aging parents, troubled teens, you know, the host of things that we bring to work and we just stuff, right? And we're executing.

[00:11:04] And then what does that do? Just deteriorates even further the mental health. It leads to burnout. And then our teams that are in charge of people leadership and acquisition, you know, can't even see straight because they're drowning themselves, right? Absolutely.

[00:11:24] And, you know, I think about with talent acquisition specifically, talent acquisition leaders are holding more than they realize. So, you know, think about how many people you talk to who have maybe been laid off, who have had a bad workplace experience, who are navigating a really challenging job market.

[00:11:47] But those people, all of those things they carry with you, that we carry with them, it comes through in your conversations. I know you know that. And there becomes a weight to that. You know, we use this terminology, compassion fatigue and secondary trauma, most frequently when we talk about, you know, those traditional helping professions like doctors, first responders.

[00:12:12] But I am a big believer that compassion fatigue and secondary trauma are a lot of the things fueling burnout among HR professionals, talent professionals as well. Because of all of that humanity, all of that kind of built up crap that you are consistently being exposed to. And you care about people. You want to help the business. And you want to help the individual be successful. And that's where it gets tricky.

[00:12:41] Yeah, 100%. And gosh, you know, I'm thinking about the through line, like you said, of the people that I speak to. And it is so evident, which is ties into my own story and my own North Star about building Evolve and the events, the tables and the conversations, because it's in service of normalizing these types of conversations.

[00:13:08] Because as a Gen X worker, I was brought up a way to mask and get it done at all costs and hit the numbers, be the top performer, be the great mom, the wife, all the things. And I used to think it was unusual that I would share somewhat personal things within the office. And I'm really glad that I was like that prior to COVID because it's just a part of my brand now.

[00:13:38] It's like what you see is what you're going to get. Yes, a lot of times it looks like the highlight reel and you get a lot of the good stuff. But if you follow along enough, you're also going to get the I want to light it on fire moments too. And that leads me into kind of the this buzzword of resilience, right? Because I feel like it's becoming a people leaders go to word. And I don't necessarily feel like that's the answer. Right.

[00:14:08] As you, you know, talked about you and I guess you have provided resilience training in different organizations that you have served. But it's more than just resilience, correct? Yes. So I'm going to get on a little bit of soapbox. I'll try not be too long winded. But we have a real like focus on individual action. And this is a cultural thing, especially here in the U.S. Individual action. How do I solve this problem?

[00:14:37] Me personally. And so we see that show up, you know, for managers like thinking about, you know, I love that managers are talking about and open to hearing about workplace mental health. But they're also they're not therapists. So like they feel like I have to solve this problem or I have to be this person. That's not the answer. The cultural structure that supports your people is the answer.

[00:15:00] The same way when we have a well-being problem in the workplace, when we have a lot of burnout, a lot of challenges, mental health concerns, we point to, hey, let me give Stephanie this individual solve. Let me give you the EAP. Let me give you a wellness app, Headspace or Calm and all of those things. Right. But what about everything else? Well, that's my question.

[00:15:30] Like, are you kind of leading me down the path of this is when a well-being program might be disguised as like a risk management play? I think it is most well-being programs are really well-intentioned. I think most well-being programs do have their benefits. I think we're over-indexing on them and we're over-indexing on individual action. We have this idea of resilience.

[00:15:56] And when you hear the term resilient, when you hear the term resilient, you're thinking about someone gritting their white knuckling it, gritting their teeth. John Wayne, cowboy. I can get through anything. Yes. And that's the image we saw. But the thing about resilience, like resilience is a real psychological term and phenomenon.

[00:16:21] And to think about resilience, Anna, it sucks because we only build resilience by experiencing hardship. It is not this natural character trait. It's not something you can take a training on and automatically, boom, gold star, you're more resilient. You totally get it. Yeah. Right. It is about we get more resilient by experiencing hardship.

[00:16:46] And what we need is the right support while we're experiencing the hardship to get through it, to be able to be more resilient. So it's really about how do we support structurally through tools and resources someone in this hard experience to get through it and come out on the other side more resilient. And my favorite example, honestly, it's Gen Z.

[00:17:17] Everyone likes to bitch about, can I swear? Yes, you can bitch. And honestly, like it was just the other day that millennials were the big problem, you know? I know. Gen X, we're just too old. Well, you guys just got ignored. But Gen X is the ignored generation. We just get all the shit done. Let's be honest. Exactly. Like, listen, I've got it. Don't worry about it. I'm married. My husband is Gen X. And as a millennial, I'm like, it's amazing. Like, it's like, let's just solve this problem. I'm like, thank God.

[00:17:47] But we pick on Gen X. I mean, every generation is the picking on. So often, especially, you know, I talk to these tough, rough construction leaders, and they'll be like, these kids just don't know how to deal with anything. And they're soft and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, what was stressing you out when you were 22 or 23 and you just started your job? Because I was like shitting my pants over and misspelling it in email. And now I'm like, oh, whatever.

[00:18:16] I misspell things all the time. Like, at least they know I'm not AI. I don't know. It's because you haven't had that experience. And I'm like, the point is they're not soft or broken or not resilient because there's something wrong with them. It's because they haven't experienced a manageable hardship with the right support from us to get through it and know that they can. And that's what resilience really is.

[00:18:42] It's not some, you know, tearjerker story you see on the end of the news. You're inspirational. You can get through anything. Yeah, sure. There are some personal traits that help us, you know, pick ourselves up and dust ourselves off. But also the structural supports that exist in the background really make all the difference.

[00:19:05] And that's why if you ever want me to go off on something for five minutes without any preparation, you can have me talk about how self-made whatever millionaire, billionaire lists are bullshit. Because there are invisible supports or a lack of support for all of us in a variety of different ways. And the truth is, we can't be, you know, eyes open about that, honest about that. We are not supporting resilience in our teams.

[00:19:35] And if we're asking people to work 60 hours a week, we're not filling open positions and we're handing people a subscription to calm, we're not solving our resilience problem. We are not solving our well-being burnout problem. We're throwing a Band-Aid on it and hoping that it works. We're kind of checking the box. Exactly.

[00:19:58] And I mean, that to me ties into what you said about an EAP with a 3% utilization rate, right? That isn't a communication problem necessarily. It's people either finding the information and being able to make the choice in service of their healthier self, right? The other, well, I'll let you say more about that and then I'll follow up with my discussion. EAPs and I officially have beef, Anna. Yeah, I've decided. I'm going to, like, I'm a bit feisty about it.

[00:20:27] I think that's a T-shirt. Beef. Because I want beef. I do, I have beef with AAPs because, okay, I got into HR on purpose. I've been in there doing this, like, all this time. And listen, I cared about the people I work with and wanted to support them that whole time. And at some level, most organizations want to do that too. Yeah. EAPs.

[00:20:56] Every time I was rolling out my EAP, getting out EAP information to my employees, guess how that EAP got selected? That EAP was selected because it came with our benefits. There was no additional special magical solution where the EAP was this end-all be-all, like, amazing benefit. It is a benefit. This is this rate for this many employees.

[00:21:25] We'll check that box and we'll finesse the language later kind of situation. If I'm not, it's like, oh, you've got this then your benefits brokerage. And, of course, they have their EAP. Yeah. Well, and I ask this question because a very, you know, personal situation happened to me and someone that I hired. Now, I'm very public about not drinking alcohol. And I've not had a sip of alcohol since May 11th of 2011.

[00:21:54] And navigated coming up in recruiting, you know, in a generation was like, let's get them drunk and close them and focus on the bar and all the things. And so, and there were periods of time where I would share about it more online and not. And there was a period that I had a signal on my headline that people in recovery would know that I'm a safe person to reach out to.

[00:22:19] And so, I placed this young kid in an analyst role and during our discussions and going back to what you said on the TA side, you know, giving ourselves grace to process and alchemize the amount of information that we consume about people's lives, right?

[00:22:41] Because I have felt it's a privilege every day to get up and help someone make a life decision about their career, whether it's coaching or recruiting or even hosting the spaces for them to learn. Right. And so, people tell you things, especially if you have a knack for making people comfortable. They tell you things. So, he had disclosed that we had a similar kind of recovery journey.

[00:23:07] You know, I was starting the recruiting process and anyway, got him settled and probably just about a year later, I get a message. And since then, my business has changed. My headline has changed. I'm still not drinking. So, that's good. And still plugged into my community. And I get a message and he's like, hey, Anna, I'm in a bad spot. I'm struggling with opiates. I had an injury. It has snuck up on me.

[00:23:36] I'm in trouble. And I can't find any information on what to do next. So, I'm like, okay, deep breaths. Kind of going back to communication and EAP and ease of access of finding information. And luckily, you know, I still had relationships within the organization. So, I can make an anonymous call, you know, and say, hey, I've got a past associate that needs some help. Where should they go?

[00:24:05] You know, what was it? And the shared drive? Like, where is this information? And it turned out that they wanted to set a meeting directly with a VP of HR. And I was like, how would they know that? And how intimidating, right? And then, as I'm being of service saying this is what I found out. I'm not 100%, you know, sure. Then the questions start of how much do I explain?

[00:24:35] When do I tell them? All this, you know, HIPAA-related content, essentially. And that, where I want to be of service, right? But I don't ever want to direct someone with the wrong information. And I'm trained in talent acquisition. And I know my recovery journey, but I don't know the HIPAA laws. And I don't know those things.

[00:24:59] And, you know, so it makes me happy that you're doing the work that you do in service of a candidate never having to go through something like that again. Yeah. I'm sure you have so many thoughts. So many things. Like, EAPs are there. And EAPs are, you know, they're on, they're having a new era. And there's some more advanced EAPs.

[00:25:25] I wonder a little bit sometimes, though, in our current climate, are we really focused on helping people? Are we interested in profiting off of people suffering and our inability to fix the actual structures of the workplace? I am feisty. I don't know. It must be this Diet Coke. Hey, I'm here for it. I mean, because I'm going to say the other thing that was going through my mind. When we talk about trauma informed, it sounds very social work, very clinical to a lot of managers. Right.

[00:25:55] And the other thing that was tooling around in my beautiful rabbit brain was. OK, for people to understand trauma informed experience and lived experience, you have to go through some hard times. Right. And, you know, Chad's up at the top aren't going to be like, yeah, hit me with some hard times, sis. You know, so I can relate to my employees.

[00:26:15] So how do you come in and, you know, execute some of these programs when like that piece of management isn't a role play or a practice? It's something that they're not ever going to necessarily be able to see. And we're not going to have all the data because we'll have had the resume and the history of working together. And we don't know what's behind the curtain or behind the front door of their home, essentially. Right.

[00:26:43] And many aren't willing to humble themselves to communicate in a way that shows the authentic leadership of, yeah, I've been in the same seat. And it's a delicate balance without losing your credibility and authority while being relatable. It's really tricky.

[00:27:07] I love this question because it does sound really scary and really clinical when I say trauma-informed workplaces. And I cannot tell you how many people are like, Stephanie, just call it something else. And I'm like, no, because two reasons. Number one, this is actually work that is built on decades of work in trauma-informed care. And to me, it's really important to honor the people and the work they've done. Yeah.

[00:27:34] And I couldn't find it because no one's calling it what it is. I couldn't find what I was looking for because no one would say what it is. Right. And so it's trauma-informed care. And it sounds really scary. But what trauma-informed principles, trauma-informed workplaces are, there are four things. The first thing is we understand what trauma is. The second thing is we understand the prevalence of trauma and how it might show up in the workplace.

[00:28:03] So those are two things. We can handle those easy in a training. The next two steps are the action items. And the next action item is that we actively avoid re-traumatizing survivors. And then lastly, we actively seek to minimize harm. And so the actions are where it gets a little bit tricky. And you go, okay, Stephanie, so how do we do that?

[00:28:26] What we don't do, what we never do is we don't go, hey, Anna, I want you to tell me all about your trauma so I can make sure to not, you know, activate or trigger you. Okay, thank you for lying there because then that was my next like, okay, how's this going to go, Stephanie? No, for sure don't do that. Always, always, always. If someone wants to disclose their lived experience, that is up to them when, if, where, who, how, why.

[00:28:55] We don't ask people about those experiences because we're not clinicians. It's not our job to diagnose. We don't need to know if someone has complex PTSD or if someone has a history of trauma in their childhood. We don't need to know. It doesn't help us do our job. What we do need to know is, hmm, if we want to minimize harm, we want to avoid re-traumatization, are there some tools that help us do that?

[00:29:25] And those are the seven principles of trauma-informed workplaces or trauma-informed practices. And what it is, is it's based in this research of trauma-informed care that helps us understand these common threads of, as someone who's experienced trauma, what do you need to feel safe and secure?

[00:29:45] And what's really beautiful about them, especially when we apply them to the lens of the workplace, is they're actually really just great practices to ensure you're creating a safe, mentally healthy, productive workplace in general. Can you give our listeners, like, some examples of what would be said in those circumstances? Yeah. So, like, the seven principles of trauma-informed workplaces.

[00:30:09] So, they are safety, trust and transparency, community, collaboration. And collaboration is a fun one because you think it's about working together well. And a little bit it is, but it's actually about power dynamics in the workplace. And I could speak for years on power dynamics. And next is empowerment. And empowerment looks at growth, strengths, leverage, recognition, and choice, which is one of my favorites.

[00:30:39] Humility and responsiveness. That's knowing, hey, we're all going to mess up sometimes. But knowing that and then recognizing when we make missteps and then looking to rectify harm and learn from those missteps. And last but certainly not least, cultural, historical, and gender issues. There are things that have been going on in this world for a long time. And they have lasting impacts on the people in the world.

[00:31:05] So, understanding that can kind of help us make sure that we're balancing things out. My just hot tip there is that trauma-informed practices do not replace diversity, equity, and inclusion in your workplace. They are a happy pair to work together. But I'm really passionate that those, it's an important aspect, but it's not a replacement. And so, I'll take safety for an example here. So, safety.

[00:31:34] So, you're thinking, all right, I want to build a recruiting process that's more trauma-informed. How can I do that? Well, let's start and think about safety. So, safety is our physical safety. Am I a physical person? Am I going to avoid harm? Psychological safety. That sexy term everyone likes to talk about now. Psychological safety is that felt permission for candor. I can show up as a genuine version of myself.

[00:32:03] I can disagree without repercussions. And last but not least, I'll do financial safety and you let me know if you remember. So, financial safety is the last aspect of safety. And I kind of think of safety as like this three-legged stool. If we're missing one of them, not safe. Financial safety is, do I have the financial tools, resources to take care of myself, my family, all of those things?

[00:32:31] And financial safety is kind of a good deal. And when we think about safety in the terms of recruiting, we're probably thinking about, okay, we're going to have an interview and it's in a physically safe location. These are kind of table stakes. You might not even think about it. It's like, okay, we're in an office. It's got, you know, air conditioning, all those things. Ask us to a bathroom. You know, someone can't like run in and do violence, things like that. Physical safety, we're good.

[00:33:01] Psychological safety. Okay, are we creating space for someone to feel like they can ask questions, you know, do all of those things? It's a little tricky because of that power imbalance in recruiting is something that's very interesting to discuss. Financial safety. Oh, baby. Why do most of us work? Well, shit, it's to pay our bills. It's to take care of ourselves and our family. Yes.

[00:33:27] And so when we think about financial safety in a recruiting process, pay transparency, listing, you know, what are the salary ranges for this position? Because guess what? We kind of know how much money we need to make to be able to survive. So having that information, it's a good practice for a variety of reasons, including being trauma informed.

[00:33:49] It is, you know, not asking someone to do hours and hours of work for free to prove that out. It is making sure we are clear and communicative about that, you know, what benefits and things look like. And then also recognize kind of the stressful space someone may be in if they are experiencing, you know, a layoff or financial hardships because they're in the market a long time.

[00:34:16] And not because we can have a magic wand to solve all of those things, but just recognizing that. So, you know, if you know you're talking to a candidate who's, you know, been laid off and they've been on the job market for a while, maybe you're not talking about your fancy new Lamborghini on your call or talking about the amazing three-week European vacation you took. It's just kind of using those things to better understand that.

[00:34:43] And then through any process, you can kind of look through each of those lenses and it helps you just build that process or shift your action in a way that helps you avoid re-traumatization and helps you minimize harm. And honestly creates better processes that actually think about mental health. So it's not an extra thing HR professionals, talent professionals, managers have to do on top of all the other things they have to do in their day.

[00:35:13] Yeah. I must have read a piece of content recently how HR leaders are becoming increasingly burdened by financial insecurity of associates, which ties into the whole job hugging. I'm not going to leave you unless you make me leave kind of energy.

[00:35:35] And, you know, I'm hyper curious around psychological and safe spaces in general because I grew up very sheltered with a little diversity. And the fact that I've landed in HR and have such a heart for inclusivity is kind of a cruel joke some days because there's so much that I still have to learn.

[00:35:58] And, you know, even when I've inquired, sometimes I've inquired with the wrong words that has kind of put me off to people in the past. And I talk about resilience that has been something I've had to work on.

[00:36:15] And even if I misspoke or didn't get it the first time doesn't mean that I should stop asking because I want to be a better advocate, a better ally, a better host so that people can drop the armor and say, yeah, me too.

[00:36:33] And gosh, I wish I had had a friend like you six months ago that I could have picked up the phone and chatted through a life situation or an implementation, whatever it may be. So, yeah. And sometimes people can't drop the armor with us for reasons outside of our control. And I think that's so important to remember. And those reasons can be really valid. Like maybe someone else want to talk to me because they've had some really bad experiences with HR.

[00:37:02] Like there's the whole like HR is not your friend and everyone hates HR on the Internet. And it's hard as an HR professional or former HR professional to not take it personally. But it's not personal. There are really there are people doing literally anything out there who are doing a shitty job, who are creating harm either intentionally or unintentionally. And sometimes that creates, you know, a reaction, a bias for someone.

[00:37:29] And it's important for us to remember to not take it personally. But to your point, to keep going, to keep trying, to keep finding ways to be a better advocate. Or just find people that you can say this might be kind of a dumb question. But, you know, from where I came from, I was not exposed to certain things. So I need you to paint that picture for me. So thank you for that reassurance.

[00:37:57] And, you know, for people listening that are curious about creating safer spaces, like find the right people to learn from. And, you know, I think that's also kind of a through line of my time in community building. That I was a non-traditional learner. I did terrible in school.

[00:38:18] And I found that content was resonating and deeply landing in my body through clubhouse conversations, Zoom meetups, the job search angels, all the different places that have now been community that's been following me for years to evolve literally from that. And it was a safe space where I was learning without having to say, Stephanie, I need you to explain this to me.

[00:38:48] And that was the magic of recruiting my peers, you know, on LinkedIn audio events for two and a half years. We supported job seekers cutting through the noise and giving them real information from recruiters that were in the seat. But the unexpected gift was I was being leveled up and we were being leveled up in different buckets that we just had not had visibility or training on previously, which was pretty magical.

[00:39:19] Yeah, it's the wanting to grow, wanting to do together, not that gotcha moment. And I am, I will get on social media and sometimes I'm like, what are you talking about? What are you doing? And I have a new opinion. Maybe I'll make a TikTok about it and get some people big mad at me. Who knows? But I have this opinion where people will start talking about the imperfections of someone like a public figure or things.

[00:39:46] And by and large, you know, well-intentioned did largely great work. But all of a sudden we're pulling on that thread of the one thing we didn't like that they did or they were part of. If you are perfect, congratulations. You haven't done shit. You haven't done shit. But enjoy your tower being right. I would rather get down in the mud and actually move us forward.

[00:40:15] And I need more people to have that energy because we have to be absolutely perfect. It's bullshit. None of us know everything. None of us are perfect. We all make mistakes. Yes. If we give each other the space and grace to do better, we actually will collectively do better. And we've got to get over that. Yeah, 100%.

[00:40:37] And, you know, I think that's also why I've experienced such joy in building Evolve and kind of navigating my own unexpected career pivot. Because I see the learning acceleration and the collaboration over competition that happens when I gather HR and TA.

[00:41:03] And I have strong opinions that HR and TA need to be in the same damn rooms. Me too. As I mentioned previously, what I saw as a TA practitioner with the wide structures of how HR was leading organizations and sizes and initiatives was just very diverse. And I could see there's no silver bullet method of like HR is this. Same.

[00:41:31] You can't say the same about TA either because why? Because we deal with humans. Well, and a lot of times, a lot of times your TA partner as an HR professional is like they can be magic for you and that they are getting such leading information about the market. They also build these incredible trusting relationships with your new hires that you cannot easily replicate.

[00:42:00] Like, it's so wild to me. I love what you're saying about the community and the collaboration. Same. I had more competition. There was like a more competitive energy for me when I was in-house than I've experienced out here as an entrepreneur, which I think is part of the communities people like you have built and communities that have welcomed me. And that's so powerful and important.

[00:42:27] But I also think it is kind of a wild view of kind of, again, what we're kind of putting out there within organizations still. Yeah. And I mean, you can never connect the dots exactly. Right. Like, I love the, I feel like I say it in every episode, the Steve Jobs quote. It's like, especially with LinkedIn, you know, you can't predict how those dots will connect in the future.

[00:42:54] But you just have to trust like in destiny, karma or intuition that those connection points, you know, will be fruitful in the future. And he says that strategy has never let me down. And, you know, for someone who has done well, getting influence and access and driving significant change as an IC throughout her career, it comes down to humanity.

[00:43:17] And it comes down to pulling back the curtain and being vulnerable and real that have been the trust accelerators that have lasted through time where my teammate has become my client, who has become my sponsor, who has become a podcast guest. It just, you can see all of these just beautiful through lines.

[00:43:40] And if you had asked me this 10 years ago, I'd be like, man, I'm just like filling and billing and being a good human and trying to take care of people and doing the best I can. And, you know, grateful that it has evolved into what it is now. But I say that to remind our listeners that, you know, how we show up in the world of work and outside, it does matter.

[00:44:05] And it's that thread of your personal brand, too, that really can be a part of your story and a huge catalyst for the change that you can make within an organization or business. Absolutely. Mic drop. So one last question.

[00:44:26] I want to go back to kind of HR and TA and what you mentioned that kind of we're silently dealing with and really get into if we are experiencing burnout and it's due to turnover, layoffs or, you know, the structure, how it was designed. You know, it's not a willpower problem.

[00:44:54] It is not a grit or resilience problem. So, you know, where should TA and HR be looking first to identify and support those associates that might be dealing with the trauma on the day to day or facing that burnout and decision fatigue and all the things? Yeah. Yeah. I think the first thing I will say is first look to yourself.

[00:45:25] Look in the mirror. Yeah. Because I also I also want to call out a lot of what you're dealing with. If you are an HR or TA and you're feeling a little burnt out, a little worth of wear, it's not a boundaries problem either. OK. And it's not something where like your job is interacting with humans at work. Let's be real. Like, how are you going to boundary your way out of that?

[00:45:52] And compassion fatigue and secondary trauma. I want to talk a little bit about what they are specifically. So, you know, the folks listening have the language for it. So compassion fatigue is you are exposed to the suffering of someone so much you start to feel numb. Start to feel numb or nothing. And it's kind of like, oh, I have to put this wall up because I just can't take it anymore. How many layoff stories have you heard? Yeah.

[00:46:19] How many stories have you heard like, oh, you know, I just got to find a job. It doesn't even have to be someone, you know, telling you a sob story. It can be someone, you know, being very professional, respectable, honest and saying, you know, I've been laid off and I really need to find my next gig. There's a load of weight in that. Secondary trauma is really quite interesting.

[00:46:42] It's sometimes called vicarious trauma because we can hear about the hardships or experiences of others or witness it, including right here on our cell phone, social media, witness the traumatic event. And the reaction in our bodies is the same as that person who's experienced that trauma directly. So it's the same physical reaction to trauma. Okay. Those are fueling burnout for us. Yeah.

[00:47:12] Absolutely fueling burnout. And it's not because you didn't set the right boundary. It's because of the circumstances of the world of work and the world in general we're living in. So if you're feeling numb, if you're feeling like drained, that's an important thing for you to recognize. And I want you to invest in self-care. And I don't mean like Gwyneth Paltrow's like goopy self-care. Right.

[00:47:36] I mean the actual psychological term where we're investing in the things that help us recharge and feel like better versions of themselves. Eating well, going to the doctor, exercising. Maybe it's mindfulness. Maybe it's yoga. I do hot yoga because it's the only thing that can get me to turn my brain off because it's so hard. It's like I can't do anything but this. Maybe it's reading a book.

[00:47:59] But you have spoken for the universe for me because I've been very dysregulated myself lately. In fact, you know, true story. I said to my spouse, like, I'm not sure who needs to go to the mental hospital, me or the kid. Like, you know, and I was struggling with the decision and I was like, oh, I'm just going to sit with it for a little bit, another 24 hours. And, like, I'll feel it in my body.

[00:48:28] And I cannot feel it in my body. And it's because I'm not with my practice. And getting that regulation time of just breathing and moving, which is the only time that quiets my brain. So thank you for that gift. Might have to go.

[00:48:49] It's the only way if we don't do it, we cannot be the people we need to be for our friends, our families, our communities, employees in our organization. So that's where you got to start. Even if it's just something small, once a day, once a week, whatever works for you. Not the bad coping mechanisms, though, like drugs and alcohol or powdered donuts, whatever that choice thing is for you.

[00:49:17] But what are those things that actually help you be a better version of yourself? Even sometimes things we really don't want to do. Like, sometimes I really don't want to go to yoga. And then afterwards, I'm like, oh, I'm a better version of myself. A hundred percent. I just have to, like, schedule it in. And, you know, same thing. As soon as I'm there and I'm in Shavasana crying my face off. I'm here. I feel like a totally different person.

[00:49:44] And the downloads that come and the quiet and the still are just everything. We could keep this conversation going. I know. I know. We could talk for, like, three more hours. Yeah. This is the invitation that you and I have to share a meal together this year, hopefully, when we see each other in person. But before we wrap, you've got trauma-informed certifications. And now you've got a newsletter or two, did I hear? All right.

[00:50:14] Spill it, girl. Yeah. So if you are interested in being more trauma-informed, I do have four on-demand trauma-informed certifications. Their self-pace is the trauma-informed advocate, a trauma-informed practitioner, trauma-informed leader, and trauma-informed executive. And that one comes with coaching hours as well. They all have HRCI and SHRM recertification credit hours attached to them as well.

[00:50:42] Feel free to reach out if you have questions about any of them. Yes. And then the newsletters. I don't know what I'm doing to myself. So I write two newsletters. So I write the resilience myth on Substack. And really, we are looking at the myths that exist about the workplace and peeling them apart and reframing them to what we think can work instead. And that comes out every Wednesday. Okay.

[00:51:06] And then on every Thursday, in the Safe Space community, you don't have to be a part of the Safe Space community to subscribe. But I write working conditions, which is focused for HR talent people professionals. And we look at the conditions of the workplace and how we can build better, healthier workplaces. And I get a little spicy in that one, too. So I would love to have you subscribe to both or either. Yes.

[00:51:35] And we'll make sure that we include those in the show notes. And I've just loved every bit of the conversation. And you've got my wheels turning and lots of follow-up questions. And I'm excited for my audience to follow you. And we will definitely be having more Stephanie and trauma-informed practices at Evolve events in the future. So Evolve IRL should be coming in fall of 27. So you have some time.

[00:52:03] And that is all intentional in service of my own self-care, my family, all the things. And like you said, holding a boundary is not a bad thing. And just because I've done it in January doesn't mean I have to do it in January again. We can do it whenever. I know. I know. We get to make our own rules. We love that. That's exactly it.

[00:52:26] Well, thank you so much for sharing your brilliance, your expertise, and really inspiring us to continue to evolve as it relates to trauma-informed workplaces. And how we can lead more effectively and show up for people in a more humane and heart-to-heart way. Which is, you know, why I keep saying yes to evolving. I love it. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:52:56] Yes, yes. That's the show, everyone. If this landed for you, share it with a leader who needs to hear it. Until then, keep evolving. Thank you. Thanks for joining the Evolve Talent and HR show. If the conversation landed, share it. Tell a leader. Pass it forward. That is the multiplier in action. One connection at a time, building momentum across our community. And that is what Evolve is. We build the rooms where connection compounds into impact.

[00:53:25] So don't sleep on the in-person experiences, the IRL conferences, the executive tables, the fringe events, our community. Show up. That's where the multiplier multiplies. If you know, you know. Head over to evolve-conference.com to see what's evolving and how to stay connected. We'll see you next time. We'll see you next time.