Transparency in the Workplace: Building Trust through Clear Communication w/Rebecca Trotsky, chief People Officer at HR Acuity

[00:00:00] But yeah, I think that's how and I have a number of close friends that are in that in that area and

[00:00:08] I'll tell you like even knowing what the role does. I still in my mind

[00:00:13] Feel like they're constantly the bad guy and they're always judging

[00:00:19] The bad one and I know that's not the case. I know that

[00:00:31] No, but it's good I'm glad because we know that there is this I'm being transparent

[00:00:38] There is this sort of baggage to the function of employee relations which

[00:00:45] And this way in Tink up Ryan Leary and you're listening to the You Should Know

[00:00:50] Today we have Rebecca on and we're gonna talk about the transparency at work and we can't wait

[00:00:56] This is actually this is gonna be a podcast. It's gonna get a lot of downloads

[00:01:00] No one's figured out transparency at work turns out

[00:01:05] Rebecca would you do us a favor and introduce yourself?

[00:01:08] Absolutely. Thank you for having me. My name is Rebecca Trotsky and I am the chief people officer for HR acuity, which is a

[00:01:16] an employee relations and case management

[00:01:20] solution that runs all the way from

[00:01:23] employee

[00:01:24] Anonymous employee reporting capabilities where they can message back and forth anonymously with the HR partner who is investigating

[00:01:32] their concern all the way to

[00:01:36] analytics and

[00:01:38] Reporting and you know cool data capabilities and in between we have our flagship

[00:01:44] investigation in case management and ER

[00:01:48] Solution and then we also have a manager solution because we know that managers are often

[00:01:54] The frontline for hearing employee concerns hearing

[00:01:59] Allegations of misconduct and so they need to be equipped to handle anything that should come up

[00:02:05] So we have a full

[00:02:07] All the way to we call it through care, but after care even after something has happened

[00:02:12] Right. So it so would for the for the audience when they hear solution

[00:02:16] This is a mixture of software and service layer

[00:02:21] It's yep, it's a we're a technology provider, but we are really proud of our

[00:02:28] Employee relations community we have it's called empower

[00:02:31] It has almost 5,000 members and it's free

[00:02:34] So anybody listening who has a role in employee relations to join its empower

[00:02:40] er org and

[00:02:43] We get a lot of

[00:02:45] insight and

[00:02:47] We understand what's happening in the world of employee relations from that community and from our roundtable community

[00:02:53] Which is our community of leaders we get together with our leaders about a hundred of them in person once a year and we do

[00:03:00] webinars and online

[00:03:03] Conversations with them as well. So we're really steeped in what's happening in the world of employee relations and

[00:03:09] We use that we infuse that knowledge into our technology platform

[00:03:15] And so that's why today I'm really excited to be talking about transparency because this is something

[00:03:20] Top of mind for everybody in our community and our clients. It's interesting Rebecca pre-covid

[00:03:27] I think one in a hundred people would have known what employee relations was

[00:03:32] even inside their company, you know, but because of covid and because of the communication layer of

[00:03:39] All layers of covid I think a those professionals got there finally got there do finally got recognized for the hard work they do

[00:03:48] And also there was a there's a heavy burnout of all of that stuff. So yes

[00:03:55] Right, so we found that our employee relations professionals really had to step up and step into the limelight

[00:04:02] So to speak oftentimes that group likes to help people and solve problems kind of maybe under the radar

[00:04:09] We don't think that's good for them. We want us to be loud and proud about what we're doing

[00:04:12] It's we'll get to the transparency piece. But yeah, they had to step in and redesign

[00:04:18] everything from their you know

[00:04:20] Work-from-home policies to their masking policies to their vaccine policies and how do you enforce it and now return to work or hybrid work?

[00:04:28] They got you know, the employee relations teams got a lot of a lot of love I think during that time

[00:04:34] But yes, also it took a toll. It was a lot to absorb and if you remember it was also

[00:04:40] George Floyd was murdered that summer. So there was a whole resurgence, right?

[00:04:44] So like they had to deal with social justice movements, you know coming up

[00:04:49] Strongly again. There's a lot it was a lot. And so we found that since then

[00:04:54] I wouldn't say things have calmed down or slowed down from a coven standpoint

[00:04:59] Yes, but there are so many other things stepping in it's still the burnout

[00:05:03] It's still mental health issues that we know employees are contending with

[00:05:09] You know, and then of course it gets back to trust and transparency as we'll talk about here

[00:05:13] I think

[00:05:15] As you William as you said pre pandemic

[00:05:18] I thought there was trouble

[00:05:20] It was like employee relations equals IAB internal affairs

[00:05:24] Right shadow

[00:05:28] Yes

[00:05:32] Might have happened

[00:05:35] But yeah, I think that's how and I and I have a number of close friends that are

[00:05:40] I think they're not going to be able to get to the bottom of it

[00:05:44] Yeah, I think that's how and I have a number of close friends that are in that in that area and

[00:05:51] I'll tell you like even knowing what the role does. I still in my mind

[00:05:56] Feel like they're constantly the bad guy and they're always judging

[00:06:03] And I know that's not the case

[00:06:14] No, but it's good I'm glad because we know that there is this I'm being transparent

[00:06:21] There is this sort of baggage to the function of employee relations which we believe and no is not

[00:06:29] Well placed. It's not appropriate anymore because

[00:06:33] We know that employee relations professionals want to resolve issues

[00:06:37] They want to take something that may have gone off course at work and it could be something small

[00:06:43] It could be something bigger, but they they really care about making sure that that issue is

[00:06:49] Resolved in a way where it doesn't happen again

[00:06:52] the person can get back to work and contribute to the mission of the company and support the customers of the company or the

[00:06:58] organization and

[00:07:00] Put it behind them so that the company benefits the organization benefits the employee benefits

[00:07:05] So we were trying very hard to break free from that paradigm Ryan

[00:07:10] It still is very hard and one of my theories about this is that

[00:07:14] Leaders of companies don't like to think that their

[00:07:19] People will cause issues or they will have issues. They everybody wants to believe that everybody comes to work

[00:07:26] With the purest of intent every day and they're going to be able to do their work

[00:07:32] Perfectly without kind of disruption and we just know that that's not true

[00:07:36] So you might as well just be honest like we say humans gonna human it's okay. It's okay if you have people

[00:07:44] Yes, like and just be open about it and

[00:07:49] acknowledge that the goal isn't to have perfection the goal is to

[00:07:54] Resolve issues and make the workplace continuously better

[00:07:58] Right, which again gets to transparency if you're honest about your processes if you're clear about

[00:08:05] What is the role of employee relations? Like I mean Ryan you said you didn't even know right or

[00:08:10] You said a lot of people didn't even know what that is. I think a lot of people still don't

[00:08:14] if

[00:08:15] You're clear about what happens if there is a concern or if there is one of those moments where things go a little

[00:08:21] bit off even if it's something as simple as I

[00:08:25] Need to take a leave of absence to care for a sick family member, which doesn't mean I've done anything wrong

[00:08:30] But I would like to know that my compensation will be handled fairly if I'm on a commission plan for example

[00:08:37] What will happen to my quotas?

[00:08:40] Will I be made whole or treated in a way where I can be successful when I return?

[00:08:45] And something as simple as the company saying hey, we've got this we have we know how to deal with this

[00:08:51] We have a plan. We're gonna tell you exactly what to expect

[00:08:54] We're gonna tell you what our process is and here's what's gonna happen and then you have comfort

[00:08:58] You can take your leave care for your family member come back get right back to work. It's all very

[00:09:04] Easy if it's been defined and if it's a little bit consistently, right?

[00:09:08] Right should be right. Well, what is what are the you know transparency is a word that I think people think

[00:09:15] That we've all agreed on what that means and that there's universal

[00:09:20] understanding of what is and isn't transparent or

[00:09:23] transparency

[00:09:25] What's the you're on top of this all the time so what's the table stakes of transparency right now?

[00:09:31] What are people's expectations when they come into an organization?

[00:09:35] Regarding this should just be transparent

[00:09:39] Yeah, you know, I think it depends on your individual workforce

[00:09:43] So I think asking what what is what do you expect? What is what is your expectation as an employee of this organization?

[00:09:51] I think that's one element. However, I would say for basic things

[00:09:56] like

[00:09:57] Well employee relations issues if you really want your people to report a concern at work something happened misconduct happened

[00:10:06] We know that from our workplace study that we did a year ago

[00:10:10] 52% of people have experienced some form of misconduct

[00:10:14] And so if you would like your employees to share when that happens so that you can resolve it

[00:10:20] Then you need to be transparent about what what happens? What's the process? How is it gonna work?

[00:10:28] How will you deal with it if there is fear of retaliation or if there is some action that would signal that

[00:10:34] So that's a piece of it right like making sure that people understand what to expect

[00:10:40] You know after the fact I think it used to be back in the days the olden days

[00:10:47] An employee an HR person now is like 2003

[00:10:56] My kids say like you're from the 1900s

[00:11:07] We would never for example say that we would share an outcome of an investigation and even know of course you're gonna protect

[00:11:14] You're gonna make sure you're protecting the people who are involved so that we're not broadcasting

[00:11:18] Let's say the discipline necessarily although clearly if somebody isn't there anymore

[00:11:22] They can draw their own conclusions as to what may or may not have happened

[00:11:26] but certainly

[00:11:28] You could and we encourage organizations to aggregate data and share that guess what sometimes we do

[00:11:36] Substantiate issues and we are able to resolve them and this is the percentage of the time

[00:11:41] So maybe not all the time, but if you're transparent about what's happening in terms of how are you getting?

[00:11:48] Information are people anonymously reporting are they going to their managers are they going to HR and then what's happening with those cases?

[00:11:55] You're gonna get a lot more people who will come forward because they'll say well

[00:11:58] You know what they actually do something

[00:11:59] It's not a black hole where issues go to die

[00:12:03] it is a place where we bring things into the light and we

[00:12:06] Clean them up and I feel better about that and we have found in our in our workforce

[00:12:11] workplace misconduct study that

[00:12:15] When employees had an issue that they reported that was investigated and it was resolved

[00:12:21] They were two point seven times more likely to recommend that employer as a good place to work to their friends

[00:12:28] And much more likely to be still with the company by the way, they're not going to quit because of that

[00:12:33] But if you think about what that really means

[00:12:36] Your it bonds them to the company in a way because they've been through a situation that's challenging

[00:12:41] The company has stepped up and has taken action and that person has been through that and feels better and

[00:12:48] And it's it's not unlike when you're a customer and something goes wrong as a customer and the the company, you know

[00:12:54] Gives you extra love and attention and then you're like I really like that business

[00:12:58] I'm gonna tell all my friends go shop there. So it's a very similar dynamic, but it does involve

[00:13:03] Being very clear and about your processes and about what happens when something should go wrong

[00:13:09] That's an element to what we've when you run into the situation

[00:13:14] Where you think the leadership team or no the leadership team thinks that they're being transparent

[00:13:20] But it's not meeting the needs of their employees

[00:13:23] Like they but they in their hearts feel like we're being transparent. We care about transparency. We are transparent

[00:13:29] One of our values we are transparent, but yet the people that work there

[00:13:34] Don't share that a definition or don't share that experience of transparency

[00:13:39] How do you how do you how do you overcome that or how do you get them to overcome that? I

[00:13:44] Think this is a case where technology is going to force our hands collectively and

[00:13:52] you've seen things like

[00:13:54] Brittany peach who was laid off from cloud fair and recorded

[00:14:00] Her her termination meeting. Oh, yeah. It went viral. Okay

[00:14:05] That brings a level of transparency

[00:14:08] Yeah, and if leadership teams would prefer that it's not done that way

[00:14:15] Perhaps they should make sure that they're

[00:14:18] Perhaps they should make sure that they're

[00:14:21] Being extra transparent and clear in how they're communicating and step up their game

[00:14:26] So to speak so that even if it's not gonna go viral because it's not handled badly, right?

[00:14:31] Like if there's nothing to show if there's no there there it's not gonna go viral

[00:14:36] You're not gonna have bad headlines. You're gonna protect your reputation

[00:14:40] And so I think that in some ways

[00:14:43] the forced transparency from our

[00:14:46] Employees and our workforce that's that are saying we want more of this is

[00:14:51] Going to help us. I mean things like wage transparency laws in states were very scary to companies

[00:14:57] They were like we can't do this. But guess what like companies have stepped up. They've done it

[00:15:02] They cleaned up their house, right? They got everything in order. We haven't seen a lot of wage claims as a result

[00:15:08] We've seen companies better able to articulate

[00:15:12] What they pay and why they pay it internally and externally it's actually raised everyone's game

[00:15:19] And I think it's probably made HR and recruiting teams more efficient

[00:15:25] You're not going back and forth at the last hour

[00:15:28] Trying to figure out where what you should pay this person. It's very clear up front

[00:15:33] Yeah, it's not the Wild West the compensation team. Yeah has put together

[00:15:38] Kind of a straightforward approach of understanding and they've communicated that with recruiters and hiring managers

[00:15:43] I think and that wasn't being done before it wasn't before like the Wild West

[00:15:48] Right. And so that is just an example of where there's a simple something very simple that all it needs is a process

[00:15:54] That is adhered to consistently. It's the same thing in employee relations

[00:15:59] Define the process follow it consistently. That is what is going to engender trust from your employees

[00:16:06] And if you do that within, you know in all aspects of your

[00:16:11] Relationship with employees you're gonna be okay and you can be transparent

[00:16:15] And you know if you if you have a process what what's wrong with sharing what it is

[00:16:20] What side and I know there's different views here multi

[00:16:25] I don't know that there should be different answers

[00:16:26] But there might be how how much of this job of the employee relations role?

[00:16:32] Claim comes through you're investigating the claim how much of of their effort is to protect the employee investigate thoroughly

[00:16:41] but ultimately protect the

[00:16:44] The employee as opposed to damage control for this

[00:16:47] It's a it's a who are you an advocate for an advocate for the company or your advocate for and I know you're kind

[00:16:53] Of in the middle there, but I kind of feel like that's where the employee at least

[00:16:59] You know is you know the employee says well

[00:17:03] Retaliation or this and that they're just gonna be on the side of the company

[00:17:07] How do you one where do where does that fall? Where does that liability fall?

[00:17:12] But two how do you how does a company or employee relations person overcome that?

[00:17:15] Yeah, I don't even see it as an either or and I don't think most most good

[00:17:20] Employee relations professionals or HR people if they're the ones doing the investigation

[00:17:26] Would see it that way. I really see them as

[00:17:29] One in the same so you you cannot protect your

[00:17:34] Organization if you are not protecting your people your people need to be safe at work

[00:17:39] They need to be able to come to work and contribute fully and if they're dealing with a lot of misconduct and nonsense

[00:17:46] They can't do that. They're going to quit

[00:17:48] and

[00:17:50] You want the issue to be resolved so that you can get ahead of it for next time

[00:17:56] Find the root cause of whatever the misconduct was and solve it and

[00:18:02] That's how you protect the company you keep people focused on serving the customers of that enterprise

[00:18:09] and

[00:18:12] You can't do that if you're only

[00:18:14] performing

[00:18:15] The act of okay. I'm gonna do damage control

[00:18:18] Yeah, really have to do both and I understand that a lot of employees feel

[00:18:26] Nervous or concerned to raise an issue because they they say that they say okay, you know, it's just gonna be they're on the side of management

[00:18:34] They're not gonna care

[00:18:35] This is why it's so important for organizations to put in place an anonymous reporting tool

[00:18:41] So that that's actually welcoming and helpful and not sort of like going to the DMV and having your number lost in the ether

[00:18:50] Because you can encourage people that way and show them

[00:18:54] That you're taking action that you're not just there to make the problem be swept under the rug that you genuinely want

[00:19:02] to help

[00:19:05] So employee relations as when I grew up as I grew up through this process they

[00:19:12] There was a different clock

[00:19:14] The resolution clock, you know, they could do a really really hearty

[00:19:20] Investigation you know talk to everybody turn over every stone, etc. Mike

[00:19:25] Gut tells me that clock's different now

[00:19:28] Like if I do an anonymous claim and say my boss is sexually harassing me and it's it's not a one-time thing

[00:19:36] It's happening now. It's happening more frequently. It's happening weekly, etc. I need help

[00:19:42] What's the expectation of resolution?

[00:19:45] Not just the how fast they're gonna get on the investigation and all that stuff

[00:19:48] I'm sure that that happens pretty quickly, but how fast or has that changed?

[00:19:54] I don't even want to assume that the clock's changed

[00:19:57] Yeah, people's expectations have changed. I don't want to do that. Well, I love this question

[00:20:02] I would encourage all of your listeners who are interested to go download our benchmark study

[00:20:07] We publish it once a year. We have the latest version will be out in May and

[00:20:13] We ask this question and we track it over time and

[00:20:18] We ask how long does it take to close or to get a case to resolution?

[00:20:23] Depending on the complexity of the case. We know that a

[00:20:28] harass a sexual harassment case or discrimination case is

[00:20:33] More complicated and probably is going to take longer than a

[00:20:38] You know travel and expense case where somebody is going to be able to

[00:20:43] You know, somebody might have been engaging in shenanigans on their corporate car, for example

[00:20:48] and that I mean we see we do see fluctuations in all of these over years, but we

[00:20:55] They tend to stay pretty constant like it's going to take you between two and four weeks to close a

[00:21:01] sexual harassment or discrimination case and

[00:21:04] Is that communicated back to the person or is there well this is this is important to?

[00:21:09] Articulate this I mean, it's a great point. It should be it should when you're when you're doing the initial

[00:21:16] Discussion and hearing hearing the claim

[00:21:19] It's important to say like I'm taking this very seriously. There is a process here. This is what we're going to do

[00:21:25] We also think it's important to keep the person apprised of where in the process things are so it's not just like

[00:21:32] They they share something it feels scary to them and then they hear nothing

[00:21:37] So it's important to keep that we call it through care like keep that person

[00:21:42] Apprised of exactly what's happening. Maybe not all of the details but like we're you know, we're looking at data

[00:21:48] We're analyzing we're talking to the people that you recommended we talked to

[00:21:52] and so we I mean we know that it's important to do a thorough investigation and so

[00:21:59] Sometimes speed isn't necessarily correct, right?

[00:22:03] You want the person to believe that you came to the right conclusion

[00:22:08] Regardless, maybe you substantiated it

[00:22:10] Maybe you don't but if they believe and know that you took your time and did a great thorough investigation

[00:22:17] They're gonna feel a lot better about that outcome. Right?

[00:22:20] So I have a follow-up on sexual harassment

[00:22:24] And again, please I'm not the authority here so please crush all my dreams

[00:22:30] I would never do that William. You should you should

[00:22:34] so in the 80s when I

[00:22:38] Kind of grew up in the workplace

[00:22:41] sexual harassment

[00:22:43] Wasn't an abstract concept

[00:22:46] it was

[00:22:48] It was very cut and dry. I mean

[00:22:51] Extremely cut and dry you could see it you could smell it you can taste it

[00:22:56] Easy to define and I feel like sexual harassment is a bit more nuanced now

[00:23:03] Or can be a bit more nuanced now. First of all, I'm not in the workplace

[00:23:08] So let me start there is that's just me looking from the outside in

[00:23:13] What are you finding?

[00:23:17] Human being you really want to think about

[00:23:20] William

[00:23:22] Sadly, I would love to say to you we have solved this through decades of amazing training and

[00:23:31] People have evolved to understand what is appropriate

[00:23:34] Yeah

[00:23:37] Unfortunately, no we have found a shift in

[00:23:42] The venue so yeah, we are we are more remote now and we know that things can happen

[00:23:50] Remotely as well as in person, although our misconduct study showed that

[00:23:55] It was much more likely to be in office settings to occur

[00:24:00] It can also happen over devices which we didn't have those things before so things can happen in a different medium

[00:24:07] messages are

[00:24:09] Incredibly powerful right if you're investigating this claim. It's really yeah a great thing to have those

[00:24:17] But yeah, we I mean certainly things like

[00:24:21] Microaggressions was not a concept in the 80s or 90s that we talked about or that people would recognize. I think that

[00:24:30] You know, we might have said oh that that's that feels wrong, but we wouldn't have necessarily known why

[00:24:38] Now there is more of a vocabulary and there is more of an awareness

[00:24:42] Which is great because because

[00:24:45] If employees know that something isn't right or is off and they can articulate that

[00:24:51] They're much more likely to reach out to the anonymous line

[00:24:55] And even if it's like some of our clients call it a warm line. It's not a hotline. It's a warm line

[00:25:01] You know, I just have a question. Is this

[00:25:04] Acceptable. I'm not saying I'm raising an issue but help me am I off here?

[00:25:09] Yeah

[00:25:12] That also gets to

[00:25:13] Building trust and building transparency saying you know what?

[00:25:17] It's okay to reach out with these questions that are maybe not, you know a formal complaint, right?

[00:25:22] This is how it made me feel I can articulate. This is how it made me feel

[00:25:27] Then again again not casting blame any any way or another. It's just basically this how it made me feel

[00:25:32] thoughts

[00:25:35] Right right and we can potentially nip it in the bud and take action before it becomes something much much worse

[00:25:44] So what happens then?

[00:25:47] Post investigation will just stay on sexual harassment. So so something you know, someone files a claim or

[00:25:54] Or puts a claim through it gets investigated. It wasn't substantiated to the I guess this is

[00:26:02] Probably just answer my own question

[00:26:04] It was substantiated that yes, there was something

[00:26:07] But is it a fire? Oh fire. Is it always a fireable offense if it's not then how do these two people?

[00:26:16] Coexist to work together. Where do you where do you come in or not?

[00:26:19] You were saying but where does the organization that go the employee relations people still have a relationship there

[00:26:26] Yeah, you know a lot of times

[00:26:30] Cases like this are

[00:26:33] Substantiated with something else so maybe it wasn't found to be discriminatory harassment of some kind

[00:26:38] but there was unprofessional conduct or bullying behavior something like that and

[00:26:44] We want to resolve that too. We want to take action to make sure that doesn't happen. So articulating

[00:26:50] What is in the policy like what what behavior goes against the company values?

[00:26:56] Or is in the policy as unacceptable behavior and then of course we have

[00:27:02] Er teams very closely aligned to HR business partners and

[00:27:07] You know even L&D teams or leadership development to you know jump in

[00:27:13] Provide some remedial

[00:27:15] Training or organization development interventions to help navigate the conflict and to help make sure that

[00:27:22] These kinds of behaviors don't continue happening

[00:27:25] Certainly documenting is something important

[00:27:28] So yeah, a case management solution like HR Q2 would be great because then you've got it all documented and if it happens again

[00:27:35] That makes it a lot easier to take maybe stronger action

[00:27:40] So I do think that staying close to the person who raised the issue and following up with some kind of aftercare

[00:27:46] Making sure that there is a strong monitoring program so that you can tell if the person

[00:27:53] Potentially is being retaliated against even before they know much watching to see okay. What's happening with their

[00:27:59] Pay increases or development opportunities or are they applying for jobs and they're not getting them

[00:28:05] Is there some is there something happening in our system now where we can see with the data?

[00:28:10] That there is a potential retaliation problem here if organizations can get ahead of that

[00:28:16] How powerful that is for encouraging people to come forward because they feel safe that they're not going to be retaliated against

[00:28:22] What's it's it's bifurcated after after care. It's just different

[00:28:26] So for the person that made the claim and it felt a certain way to then make that claim

[00:28:31] It's following up and doing everything you just said and it's the person

[00:28:35] But the claim was against and following up that aftercare with them to follow up

[00:28:39] But the training was actually done that they're not doing it again, etc

[00:28:44] So the you can look at aftercare on both sides. Absolutely

[00:28:48] Just kind of a different treatment of that aftercare

[00:28:51] Because you mentioned policy

[00:28:53] What happens and what is?

[00:28:56] how do

[00:28:59] How does the employment

[00:29:02] How do they deal with things that aren't explicitly stated in policy or the handbook

[00:29:09] So when things happen

[00:29:11] That aren't covered right?

[00:29:14] Possibly cover every element of misbehavior

[00:29:17] correct

[00:29:19] And again, you're gonna say humans gonna human

[00:29:25] I'm

[00:29:28] Pretty sure we're gonna have a shirt. Oh

[00:29:31] We'll put the company name because that's pretty cool

[00:29:33] The but the thing is is okay. You're right can't cover everything policy

[00:29:38] Policies plural and also the handbook can't cover everything

[00:29:42] But something happens in the workplace and they have to deal with it

[00:29:45] So something then gets reported and everyone looks at each other goes I do not have no idea

[00:29:51] There's nothing to point to

[00:29:53] So how do they deal with that?

[00:29:56] Well, I would encourage

[00:29:58] organizations to make sure that they have

[00:30:00] clear

[00:30:02] Values with behaviors that anchor them

[00:30:06] overarching

[00:30:07] expectations of how we behave in the workplace and you can

[00:30:12] Cover a lot of ground with that and it you can make it pretty clear what is

[00:30:19] Acceptable and not acceptable

[00:30:21] Even if you don't have a policy that is explicit against that particular

[00:30:26] action

[00:30:28] And guess what? You might have to revise your policies

[00:30:32] More frequently than you thought because of how rapidly things are changing in the in the working world

[00:30:39] AI policies for example, I know you've been talking about that on your podcast and

[00:30:44] Just recognizing where your organization is is going and trends that are happening and being clear about that

[00:30:51] But I think that you know

[00:30:54] Values behaviors are really helpful

[00:30:56] You a believer in morality clauses if you're a buyer or seller worthy the Motley Fool deal

[00:31:02] buyer seller where you have on morality clauses, um

[00:31:06] You know

[00:31:11] Right, she's wiggling in her chair. I think I think you just

[00:31:17] What is the

[00:31:19] Hey, is it gonna is it gonna fit with what the company is trying to achieve right? Does it fit with the company's?

[00:31:26] overarching goals and I mean sure I think it could work but

[00:31:31] Depends on what organization pretty sure you were gonna start. Can you hear me now?

[00:31:35] Okay

[00:31:42] Where or who who in your organization is really responsible for transparency

[00:31:48] if you're building a transparent culture on the

[00:31:52] My mind says coming common sense mine says leadership, but you can have some really bad leaders

[00:31:59] In an organization right can well

[00:32:02] Most you know, yeah, so or at least there's that level of distrust from the employee population to the leadership

[00:32:09] So I'm looking at employee relations HR people

[00:32:14] Employees and then leadership the employees are in the center. They're kind of afraid to go to the HR group, right?

[00:32:21] They definitely aren't gonna go to leadership and there's a distrust there. So

[00:32:26] Who's responsible to kind of build that feeling of transparency and that ever welcoming feeling?

[00:32:32] Everyone yeah, I think it is everyone. I think that leaders certainly

[00:32:38] Have an obligation to be as transparent as they possibly can and

[00:32:44] HR leadership should equip them to do that should help them be able to articulate

[00:32:52] If it's about pay if it's about

[00:32:55] You know changes happening in the business environment

[00:32:58] HR should equip them to do that effectively and bolster them and give them the courage

[00:33:03] But they need to be able to do that. That's their job

[00:33:08] But it does involve some courage

[00:33:10] It is a little bit outside of maybe what many leaders grew up with and I don't know if it's a different expectation

[00:33:17] I don't know if it's her as much

[00:33:20] courage for Millennials and Gen Z

[00:33:24] Because they grew up with the internet and they grew up with a layer an expectation around transparency

[00:33:29] Right that they're just not willing to tolerate so they wouldn't even I don't I don't believe that they'd even consider courage

[00:33:36] It's just like hey this sucks, right? And then they'd say this sucks. They would like hold it to themselves

[00:33:42] Have quiet meetings etc

[00:33:44] So yeah, I think failure Ryan for me is when we say to HR you own culture

[00:33:51] Or you won't write DEI or you own transparency

[00:33:56] Because that's never going to work one person or even a team of people

[00:34:01] Can't own something as big as that. Like I hate that idea that

[00:34:06] Like DEI is, you know, Sally and Roberts

[00:34:10] It's like no it isn't

[00:34:12] It's a business issue overall. Yeah, yeah should be so

[00:34:18] What for the audience the because they'll see employee communications and they'll say they'll see employee relations

[00:34:26] What is the similarity and dissimilarity of those two groups of folks? How do they work together?

[00:34:32] Well, we think of employee relations as

[00:34:36] The function that's bringing the legal and emotional contract to life for the employer and the employee

[00:34:44] Right and nurturing the culture in you know, making sure at all levels like team level individual level

[00:34:51] company level organization level and

[00:34:54] communications is certainly important to help articulate that mission and

[00:35:00] to share

[00:35:02] You know what we would say should be pretty transparent practices. So I think there's a great partnership that needs to occur there and

[00:35:08] Certainly employee relations professionals have to communicate regularly with the entire business and again not be in the dark shadows

[00:35:17] Just fixing things behind under the radar but out

[00:35:21] Loud and proud about issues. They've solved the data that they're seeing trends that they're seeing

[00:35:27] That's how they're gonna get more credibility and build that trust with not just employees of the organization

[00:35:33] But leadership as well

[00:35:34] And so I think communications professionals can certainly help equip them to do that

[00:35:39] Yeah, yeah, so I've got a question here around

[00:35:45] Well, I'm trying to be nice

[00:35:52] I feel like I've been bad this entire

[00:35:56] Conversational is bringing the negative up

[00:35:58] I love HR people. They're just I be inside the workplace

[00:36:05] Everyone's gonna hate me here

[00:36:07] So, okay

[00:36:08] so of all the cases or all the investigations and and I don't know that this really is this isn't fully

[00:36:16] Aligned to the conversation but out of all the investigations that you're seeing in the workplace

[00:36:22] How do they stack up where is is harassment cases bullying cases top of

[00:36:28] Top of the pack here. What do we what are we looking at? I'm trying to get an idea of really

[00:36:33] What the cases are and how bad?

[00:36:45] Top 10 we do see cases coming back from they sort of took a dive during the pandemic

[00:36:54] Play here

[00:36:56] That's better than pulling out a PowerPoint so good thing no

[00:37:00] So the urine you're looking for the the different the different things that happen

[00:37:06] Reported what is the top? What are the top three? What are the top?

[00:37:11] Yeah, yeah, try here. What's trending there? Yeah. Yeah, we I mean we have

[00:37:16] Well, let's see. Let me see. It's all because I think we only hear about

[00:37:20] harassment cases and

[00:37:22] Things like that or

[00:37:24] There was a period Ryan where we talked about sexual harassment

[00:37:28] We had sexual sexual harassment policies and then we broaden that out to harassment policies

[00:37:35] And sexual was a spoke of a much larger. Well, yeah, we break it down into a different category

[00:37:41] So for those of you who want to download the seventh annual, which is last year's it's on page 26

[00:37:46] But what we found was and I should have known this off the top of my head because we talk about it all

[00:37:52] But mental health issues are actually the number one

[00:37:55] Issue that that was

[00:37:58] Investigated in 2022. We released this in 2023

[00:38:01] We have not found that that has changed as just a little teaser for this year

[00:38:06] and

[00:38:08] accommodation requests was coming in at number two which

[00:38:13] If you think about what has been happening with return to office, right?

[00:38:19] Yeah, that is also not surprising

[00:38:22] And then it's the usual things like job performance. So helping navigate

[00:38:27] performance concerns or performance issues and then

[00:38:31] unprofessional conduct policy violations

[00:38:33] discrimination to yeah

[00:38:36] Discrimination bullying

[00:38:38] Non-sexual harassment followed by sexual harassment and then retaliation and then after that it's things like threat assessments social media misuse

[00:38:47] Substance abuse theft

[00:38:50] Place pilot. Yeah, that's really interesting

[00:38:53] So that's really not is that how did that compare just off the top of your head?

[00:38:58] How did that how does that compare to pre pandemic now that brings it up another question?

[00:39:04] We did not see the same number of mental health

[00:39:08] issues prior to the pandemic or

[00:39:12] accommodations or

[00:39:13] Yeah, yeah, I think people have more courage now to come forward and say I need right there is less of a stigma

[00:39:20] Which is really good. It has meant that employee relations professionals have had to

[00:39:25] learn about

[00:39:27] mental health first aid

[00:39:30] Triage figuring out if somebody needs help

[00:39:33] What do they do equipping managers to be effective if they suspect somebody's in a mental health crisis?

[00:39:38] We actually did an empower webinar

[00:39:41] Conversation with about 30 professionals just last week on this topic. We're gonna have a follow-up. It was a really good conversation

[00:39:47] Again, I encourage everybody to join empower

[00:39:49] It's a really great community because this is stuff that we never used to have to navigate or we did but it wasn't

[00:39:55] Nearly as frequent right and there was taboo and all kinds of things routing it to people exactly

[00:40:02] mental health mental health

[00:40:05] Problems have been here since the beginning of time, right?

[00:40:08] It's it's only in the last couple years where people feel comfortable to say here's my diagnosis

[00:40:14] Here's the medicines that I'm that I'm taking right etc

[00:40:19] For that and what if I'm on a performance plan and now what do you do?

[00:40:23] How do you untangle all of this and do the right thing for the employee and the organization and hold them accountable?

[00:40:29] But also support them really challenging work

[00:40:33] Which is why I just think that they're heroes

[00:40:35] Yeah, we've had recent some podcasts on neuro diverse. Yeah talent

[00:40:40] talent and how

[00:40:42] Okay, the what we do in HR and how we treat people

[00:40:46] In a very similar way, which is kind of the backbone of HR is that we treat people

[00:40:52] Methodically, you know now you have neuro diversion

[00:40:56] Talent that bust out of all of those things. They need different things from you

[00:41:01] So it's like you can't treat people the same way in fact in doing so you can't recruit you can't retain etc

[00:41:07] So exactly. No, it's not equitable if you're doing that. So what is equity really look like what?

[00:41:13] Yeah, and you're not getting the best out of all of your people at that point either

[00:41:18] When you're not accommodating and I hear people saying it now everyone gets a participation trophy, but I don't think it's that situation

[00:41:26] I think it's you know, I think that's a lazy argument there

[00:41:30] Yeah, what's what do you tell like?

[00:41:33] Transparency seems to me to be a goal that you never reach

[00:41:39] Meaning the goal is to go towards that goal I get as far

[00:41:45] Towards that goal by the time you reach that destination the destination changes

[00:41:51] Possibly but you know, I would say

[00:41:54] Be bold and and try I think we could do better. We have an example

[00:41:59] Where one of our clients has been?

[00:42:04] using Microsoft Co pilot to

[00:42:08] Take transcriptions of the investigations interviews that they do

[00:42:12] They do all of them on teams and so it automatically transcribes and because it's co-pilot

[00:42:17] It's it's cordoned off within their own firewalls

[00:42:21] It's not going out, but they are able to take the entire transcription

[00:42:26] Put it into a word document co-pilot removes all of the noise so to speak

[00:42:33] Consolidates it and that person his team

[00:42:37] provides a transcription of every single interview that they do

[00:42:42] when there's an investigation with witnesses with the person who raises the claim the subject of the investigation and

[00:42:50] People in our community were horrified because we've had a debate for a long time about you record an interview or do you not?

[00:42:56] Do you just take notes and then you provide you provide a summary of your notes?

[00:42:59] But then they might disagree with that and he said look these are their words

[00:43:04] I'm giving them their own words and he said that what it did was it allowed for better

[00:43:11] Investigations because people were not worrying about taking notes

[00:43:15] They were listening to hear what the person said and then asking a question that made sense from a follow-up standpoint

[00:43:22] so getting a better resolution and

[00:43:25] they're able to

[00:43:27] Not spend their weekends typing up

[00:43:30] Interview notes that they took for this investigation to close the case

[00:43:33] They can do it in a matter of seconds and then have a case report that then of course they go through and make sure

[00:43:40] It's correct, but that kind of bold

[00:43:45] We're gonna just go do

[00:43:48] Transparency like this is the kind of thing that we need to see from our community and other business leaders

[00:43:55] So that we know what is the what is the end state to your point William like I?

[00:44:00] Wouldn't have thought of that. I mean it was amazing to hear that. Oh, you're gonna provide the transcript

[00:44:04] Okay, that is radical transparency, but it makes sense

[00:44:08] right

[00:44:09] They can't do it in the US Congress

[00:44:11] Because the US Congress has outlawed yeah Microsoft co-pilot so they can't use it there

[00:44:17] But I love the idea the intention is pure. Yeah, it is great

[00:44:22] Not unlike pay equity it raised the game

[00:44:26] You know the pay transparency on job postings raised the game for recruiters and HR people

[00:44:33] And comp teams and it does the same thing for ER professionals if we can be

[00:44:38] Brave enough to do it, and then I don't know William. Maybe it does get maybe we have to be even more transparent

[00:44:45] But like you have to start oh

[00:44:47] Yeah, no, I yeah, I was more or less thinking

[00:44:50] It's a similar thing that I have in my head around diversity and inclusion

[00:44:56] Do we ever actually reach the goal good?

[00:44:58] That's not the point right right the point isn't the do we the point is just start and go the direction

[00:45:04] Right and then and learn what's important to your people learn what it what do they value?

[00:45:09] What do they want to know about and how can you provide that to them while still you know protecting people?

[00:45:15] Sorry last question for me. Oh Ryan you got one. Oh, I was gonna just do my last question. I'll let you go first

[00:45:22] Are you a molly fool? Are you a buyer seller of HR annual reports? Oh

[00:45:27] I'm a big

[00:45:30] Did you say oh

[00:45:34] I

[00:45:40] Obviously no like

[00:45:42] Well, first of all HR. I'm a big fan of ER sharing what they have done so that right again for transparency

[00:45:49] I mean seems so obvious to me. It's like well. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes data

[00:45:53] Tell the story show your work show what you're doing

[00:45:57] Use that to justify getting additional resources or additional technology or additional headcount like

[00:46:02] You're doing great stuff for your organization you've got to share it. Yeah, check

[00:46:06] You did recall those

[00:46:11] I'm not gonna ask another question. I think that's a perfect answer

[00:46:16] To end on but I will say if you're still listening

[00:46:19] I hope you are because this is the great conversation just make sure you like this subscribe

[00:46:23] You'll get more more more shows just like this and Rebecca will give us all the links that we need

[00:46:29] For those reports will drop them right there in the initial notes for everybody so thank you so much

[00:46:35] Thank you really been a good conversation. Thank you for having me it was a lot of fun