Generational Perspectives: The Great Disconnect and The Power of Authentic Employer Branding with Kyle M.K. from Indeed

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[00:00:33] Oh my goodness! Bad touching, harassment, sex, violence, fraud, threats, all things that could have been avoided. If you had FAMA, stop hiring dangerous people.

[00:01:31] Yeah absolutely. Well first of all, good to be here. Love you guys. I'm a talent strategy advisor at Indeed. What that means is essentially I do a lot of what you guys do and I just don't have a podcast to talk about it. I do a lot of

[00:01:44] research on the labor market and manage and all the tech that's out there and I get to help employers kind of skate to where the pop is going and understand the generations of today and hopefully get them to evolve their practices and strategies to hire some good folks.

[00:02:00] Do you ever read other people's research like another vendor? Do you read any of their reports? All the time. Gardner, LinkedIn, everybody. Yeah. So you're a consumer of research as well. Oh very much so. Yeah that's

[00:02:16] all I do. Podcasts and research it feels like. Isn't that a great job to have. Like that's just a great career. What are you doing today? I'm reading and talking. Yeah but then you're at like a family reunion and that's all you can

[00:02:30] talk about and I was like maybe don't go hang out with Uncle Kyle. All he wants to do is sign up. He's cool taking about talk about unemployment and some other stuff and experience. Jobs not being created in certain

[00:02:45] industries. Yeah you know what I'm gonna play basketball now. It's a rapid slowing. No but this is really interesting. So it went from 3.8 to 3.9 back to 3.8 but here's what people don't talk about. You just see everyone check out. Yeah it's funny but it's when Kyle breaks out the

[00:03:07] hey Johnny look don't do this in school. Don't go to law school. We're gonna go into humanities. We're gonna talk about history. We need trade, emotional intelligence. Just take me fishing. Just study. You know that actually

[00:03:25] brings up a really interesting point Ryan. There for a while you would tell people to go into STEM. Yes. That was the advice for a lot of younger people. Just do STEM you'll be fine. It'll all work out just do something in

[00:03:38] with AI and generative AI. I don't know if that's the best advice. You know I don't know if it'll shake out in time but I just don't know if you tell people the same thing. So anyhow Kyle would you do us a favor and talk take

[00:03:54] it take us into the idea or the construct of the great disconnect. Yeah it's um that's something I think a lot of people are already familiar with. There's now there's just a title to it and it's that there's just a big

[00:04:07] difference between what employers believe make up a good workplace and what job seekers believe make up a good workplace and there's a big disconnect. A great one. The expectation versus reality. Right well the expectations are different period just those two vantage points. So before

[00:04:30] there might have been a similar shared expectations if you would. Now the expectations are different like I can't remember when we did the podcast but one of them was Gen Z won't even apply to a job if they don't have the

[00:04:45] salary in it. Whether or not there's state law or not doesn't matter or federal or whatever whether or not there was law it was it's the expectation so the expectation for the recruiter was like hey we're not

[00:04:56] mandated we don't have to put it in there because it's a it's a return to office position or it's an office position so it's inside this place that doesn't have you don't have to you're not you don't have to disclose

[00:05:08] requirements and Gen Z two out of three not respond not responding not applying. Of the three-fourths now. Really? Three-fourths are more likely to apply if they see salary but if they don't they consider it a red

[00:05:24] flag and so they just they won't. That's why we we don't consider pay transparency to be a trend anymore we call it a trend. Because it's such a big deal right there for folks. Yeah. So what other

[00:05:36] missed expertise and again from both sides from employers if you have that and from candidates well let's go through some of those if you don't mind. Yeah I mean you already touched on one it's pay transparency the other

[00:05:49] one is like lack of flexibility in work there's a lot of return on the office mandates coming from a bunch of different companies and people are not very happy there's also a disaster of candidate experiences all over the

[00:06:03] place they just they take way too long and and they ask far too much of job seekers like a lot of job seekers are kind of forced to spend it full hour to fill out just an application and do an assessment and like have a

[00:06:18] question on paid labor. Let me ask let me ask so let's go through these So you're in Austin indeed has an office a beautiful office in Austin. I agree. If it was and it won't be but if it was mandated that you need to go

[00:06:33] back five six days a week whatever the bid is I'm asking if you would quit or get another job. Be careful how you answer. Yeah. 100% yeah because I got this job during the pandemic so it was 2021 and I was fully remote position

[00:06:53] from the get-go and I do travel a little bit but you know I just hang out all with my dog my wife she actually also probably a better story she was hired as a remote employee in her office did ask them to come back three

[00:07:09] days a week and then coming up here shortly they want them to go back five days a week so she put in her notice. She's just like it just didn't work for her. Yeah well yeah it's a big deal because I mean cars are expensive right

[00:07:25] commutes aren't fun yeah and a lot of times the folks who invite you to the office there's nothing different between the office and your home other than you're less comfortable and you have to be a little bit more

[00:07:37] extroverted possibly but they don't really give you the time to really connect with the yeah that's the lie oh well that's one of the I don't want to say this explicit lie I think they really believe it some of the people

[00:07:50] that are championing RTO they believe soft skills can be developed or developed more fully in an office environment let's jump in here let's do a design shred let's brainstorm let's get to meet each other in sales let's go do a bunch of objection response stuff together and

[00:08:07] see each other you can't you can do it on zoom or whatever but it's just not as intense it's just not as good and then you end up at the office and you don't do that yeah and so it's like you're you know no what's gonna

[00:08:23] happen is you go to the office you can't get your system to connect the guy for right from my tease at home working remotely so you've got a check track that person down it's a mess yeah why why can't Kyle what I

[00:08:36] don't know if you're seeing this or having this conversation with others but why couldn't why can't organizations just survive with a hybrid model why are they fighting this real estate that seems to be the answer for most

[00:08:55] of the already got it yeah most of the companies have spoken to like HR leaders CHROs they all say that it's because they own some buildings and they have or they have seven-year leases and they have to use that it's an asset

[00:09:16] of theirs and during the pandemic they could get out of it and they could get a lot of those lease payments because of force majeure it's out of their hands it's God's will or etc once that ended they had to pay those

[00:09:34] leases so there's this one in large what happened if you signed 2019 you signed a seven-year lease those let me go through Kovac those years they didn't pay right the problem is they also extended the contract right right

[00:09:50] he got tacked on right but was the difference though I mean you're gonna pay for regardless so why not second business outside of talent talents always the largest expense in a business and if you're gonna lose that talent

[00:10:03] forcing them in the office why not just all good great I know I'm not letting my thought go here I think I really believe that the CFOs could get out of those leases because it's not just the lease of the space it's all

[00:10:21] that stuff inside of it well yeah air conditioning electric all this stuff that's there and indeed a great example they have a fantastic space fantastic building cafeteria dude you want for nothing you go inside that thing it's just like shit I want Fettuccine Alfredo and you know it's

[00:10:41] done don't make it like it is intense so they've got all of that stuff so I mean you can kind of see it but if they could get out of that cost like if the commercial brokers would let them out of that cost we

[00:10:54] wouldn't be having this discussion around flexibility yeah I definitely think the real estate's the biggest like one of the biggest reasons why she said the other one is that a lot of folks that are in leadership belong to a certain generation who are familiar with how to build

[00:11:11] relationships online whereas younger generations are very familiar with how so it's they're speaking two different languages when it's like well we can have community over zoom if we wanted to and the leaders don't know what that

[00:11:27] looks like you know because they they didn't grow up in that world and so part of that disconnect because if you go to boomers and Gen Z so let's do the the farthest we can boomers don't know how to build a

[00:11:42] relationship online Gen Z has the opposite problem they have difficulty building relationships offline sure that's the difficulty for them so you can see those two and like Millennials and Gen X are in the middle of that they've got some of them that crossover but yeah I can see

[00:12:00] that being a disconnect good right yeah no you covered it that was my question fair enough so you would have after you went through the disconnect of okay hybrid or flexibility as you called it so the first thing is transfer one of

[00:12:17] the first things was transparency then then before we move on I need to let you know about my friend Mark Feffer and his show people tech if you're looking for the latest on product development marketing funding big

[00:12:34] deals happening in talent acquisition HR HCM that's the show you need to listen to go to the work to find network search up people tech Mark Feffer you can find them anywhere flexibility flexibility what's the next one because you were getting to me

[00:12:52] or listed them off candidate experiences what it's like to apply to a job and what it's like to you just go through the interview process it's a like an Indiana Jones adventure sometimes you got a you know you got to

[00:13:06] swap the medallion you got to run down the thing you got it starts there's a big company that I worked with you've heard of them and I was showing them through their candidate experience and how bad it was it took me 52

[00:13:23] minutes to get through an entry-level position application because they have two different assessments that I had to take to determine whether or not I was qualified for an entry-level position and obviously they're checking the candidates for like personality and culture ad and

[00:13:39] those types of things but you're thinking about it from the job seekers perspective which is something that level yeah it's at you level and they have very little time to apply to many roles they're trying

[00:13:53] dozens of jobs in one sitting and one company taking up a full hour of their time it seems disrespectful yeah how many TikTok videos is that let's see let's do the math 60 he's done the math and if there's 30 seconds it's 120

[00:14:10] yeah there's no way my entire day was that mobile friendly do you remember if that experience was no that one was not all friendly so that yeah added added injury there yeah so that's like that's a big piece is that

[00:14:26] when employers are thinking about the job seeker experience they get it they're like yeah of course we don't want to put in too many barriers in front of someone because high quality candidates aren't gonna spend a full

[00:14:36] hour filling out an application they've got too many things to do but it takes a special person at the employer to raise that flag and until that flag is raised they're just continuing on with pre-covid traditions

[00:14:50] what worked before yeah yeah I think I think it's also that generation is what at least I feel like if you want to go after Gen Z and you want to heavily recruit Gen Z you need people in Gen Z designing the process

[00:15:05] and also meeting them at the gate yeah that way they see somebody that they know or they see somebody that's like them they can answer questions but they also they understand that process better you know they can explain

[00:15:18] you know why they did certain things have you read or seen anything about candidates expecting if I'm you're gonna ask me for something not only tell me but tell me why and give me something so give you an example in the

[00:15:35] background screening world what some of the players have done is yes the background check is for the employer check but what they do is they flip it and they also give a copy of the background check to the applicant and so

[00:15:50] they basically say hey listen I mean you ever were wondered like what these reports are like you know is it do we have your permission to do a background check and you'll get a copy well then it's like you check

[00:16:01] that off like oh okay cool I'll do yeah I'd like to see what's on their report so like I think that people don't do that with like assessments like a personality assessment isn't a big deal it's a big deal because the

[00:16:14] person doesn't know what they're getting for that investment that time well it's also it's also even if they were to get it back they don't necessarily company is looking for right because it'll put you in a

[00:16:28] bucket of some sort you know why there's Meyer Briggs or disk or any of these paradox has some so we'll put you in a bucket so you'll be like I'm in bucket a did I get a was the rejections got it right thank you what

[00:16:46] could be I'm trying to make it work what could make that work is if they told you what that position usually is yeah I think that would be really nice overlay for the company or something like that but then you might be like

[00:17:00] introducing some bias into how someone fills out an assessment I at least speaking from my own personal experiences that if I know that they're looking for ducks and I'm very much a chicken I'm gonna fill up this as if

[00:17:14] I'm a duck you're gonna quack I need a job I'm a quack so that's a it's a tough it's a tough vote to put people in and expect them to row the entire way yeah the other you were so William you were talking about you

[00:17:31] need Gen X in the position to hire in a process right doesn't that introduce and Kyle you know ask you doesn't that introduce potential ageism into the mix as well or bias there you're pulling you're specifically putting someone of a

[00:17:48] generation in a position to create a process to hire people of a position and exclude other people although I fully agree with everything we're saying all right I want to talk to you for a moment about retaining and developing your workforce it's hard recruiting is hard retaining top

[00:18:08] employees is hard then you've got onboarding payroll benefits time in labor management you need to take care of your workforce and you can only do this successfully if you commit to transforming your employee experience this is where I saw comes in they empower you to be successful we've

[00:18:26] seen it with a number of companies that we've worked with and this is why we partner with them here at work defined we trust them and you should too check them out at I solved HCM calm yeah no I think you're right there's

[00:18:41] definitely some risk there I wouldn't say that like you necessarily need a Gen Z or a millennial in order to think like a Gen Z or a millennial really you just need some empathy you just need to understand what someone

[00:18:54] is going through and what the climate looks like which there's plenty of information out there to give someone that mindset but that's really all we need is more emotionally intelligent leaders to consider the experience of

[00:19:12] those who they're trying to attract and that will point earlier we used to think of candidates I think there's still a lot of leaders that think of candidates as a faucet you turn on the faucet candidates come and so if you want

[00:19:27] to put them through a 30-minute interview process or application process really what you're talking about or 50 minute or 10 minute does it we dictate and the thing is is the talent has changed to such a degree to where you don't dictate even in even in a shortage where

[00:19:46] there's scarcity of talent you don't dictate still and that's that's the emotional intelligence and empathy that you're talking about you got to care about what they're going through and how they go through this experience

[00:19:59] and if you do that you have a decent chance of getting them if you don't you don't yeah well then you introduce also speed velocity right on within the dynamics of the actual job market itself so companies lower their

[00:20:14] standards all the time to move faster now you're introducing non quality candidates accepting volume to get to what you hope is quality oh my goodness bad touching harassment sex violence fraud threats all things that could have been avoided if you had Fama stop hiring dangerous people Fama dot

[00:20:47] i o one of the things that we advise companies on is you can move fast and still get good quality as long as you are transparent and authentic and like job ads or with your employer brand as long as you're doing it

[00:21:03] that's the thing that I think is the biggest learning opportunity for folks is that especially the younger generations that grew up with the internet this I think this is the case for most folks who are somewhat

[00:21:16] media literate is that they can kind of see through the corporate BS and in job ads and yeah if they're not being authentic if they're not talking about the good the bad and the ugly then it will be more difficult

[00:21:29] for them to attract folks so Kyle yesterday I forget what prompted this what exercise we were doing we started looking at Craigslist it was another episode we were recording something and Craigslist came up somehow and so I

[00:21:44] went on the Craigslist how is Craigslist still here like why did Ryan didn't believe it's still existing well I know it existed I just couldn't believe that it's actually still a major yeah yeah so I went

[00:21:57] into all the jobs and looking at all the local jobs of companies that I know that are within five minutes of my home and I went to their indeed postings I went to their LinkedIn postings I wanted these others to find

[00:22:11] the same post they don't exist and so they'll have a posting on indeed or LinkedIn or somewhere else and it's like a posting I mean it's the biggest BS like you'll find Craigslist legit I have to send you

[00:22:25] some of these things they were four or five lines if you like this you will do well here we pay this if you don't like this no need to apply so like so the my favorite one North Philly

[00:22:40] securities on-premise will have you out by three it didn't say by three it said you yes comma you will be out before nighttime because it's not in such a secure area and I'm like that is genius that's what they led with

[00:23:00] that is communication you'll be out with daylight they're not hiding the fact it's not a secure place everybody knows it like you don't go there and live there if you don't you know this and that was their

[00:23:13] opening line yes you will yes there is security on-premise yes comma you will be out before evening or something like house point it's often that's yes yeah that's like getting into the capabilities and you know what we're

[00:23:26] looking at in a job and what you're getting at the business that's another that stuff it's like what are the two fears that they have yeah in North Philly in this particular region for that particular job it's like listen

[00:23:37] are you worried about how long it's gonna take the police to get to a certain place you don't have to worry about that we have security on-premise to you're not gonna have to go to have you're not gonna

[00:23:47] have to go out in the dark there was no disconnect there the questions up front I don't know if they even got to any of the other stuff it had it had the pay rate and it had the hours and what was the other one said oh it

[00:24:03] said prepare it said it said therefore our plan to plan to be here for up to four hours for a trial shift and to start the next day or something like that I was thinking super fantastic that's all we're asking for just some

[00:24:18] offset that's it yeah there are a bunch of people on indeed that do this right I mean you got a great because of so much data that you're sitting on so many jobs that you're sitting on you got some people that do it right

[00:24:32] and so the cool thing is is you can point to them and say listen don't cut and copy this don't do that because you've got a unique DNA you've got unique things that make you okay but look at look at this job and it

[00:24:47] says hey we have a roller skating rink with this with that but we're gonna work a hundred hours a week it's one of these it's a shark infested waters okay but you're gonna work work is your life your life is your work

[00:24:59] such a we're gonna say we're a family when our family is work yeah now if you read that and that's not you you just go to the next thing yeah so that's what I'm talking no harm exactly you've added no noise to the

[00:25:14] recruiters as well because you're just not gonna apply it's like even up to get the job I don't want that job mm-hmm yeah so Kyle where does tech process come into this where does where does tech play a role yeah

[00:25:28] for the client experience piece yeah yeah I actually just did a webinar around like AI in the hiring process that I think the big thing that's gonna really possibly surprise people is that it's going to take care of the

[00:25:45] searching piece for a lot of recruiters as it's already going in for job seekers like we're already have a pretty good algorithm to help folks find a relevant job but for employers like we're gonna take out all of the

[00:25:58] searching so they can focus more on the human connection and that and story so I think like technology is gonna go in that direction is like getting rid of all the operational duties that recruiters are currently

[00:26:12] doing including writing job ads to a degree and allow them to just focus on the human-to-human connection which is probably the most important piece about human resources is the human yeah yeah but it'll I think it'll help

[00:26:29] employers really quickly identify like oh this talent seems like it would be good for you because they prefer these things and that falls in line with what you expect from your culture and right so do you have a do you have a

[00:26:43] personal take on recruiters being a candidate advocate or an employer advocate who could question yeah I've listened to lots of podcasts that say they have to be 50-50 I'm of I'm of the belief that they should be

[00:27:01] candidate focused I might be a little bit biased working for a company whose mission it is to help people get jobs not help people find workers but yeah like the the candidates I think that's the soul of the business as

[00:27:16] the people of it so if you're not solely focused on the inbound talent that's coming through those doors and making sure that they are placed in a good team and that they understand what the culture is like then you're just

[00:27:31] setting everybody up for failure for this yeah what else what's your job at that point in fact I think the recruiters that say this isn't for you or this hiring manager is much better you're a great fit but just

[00:27:43] not for this job and they don't mean it that way they mean it like that team that boss that that that extents is not going to be good for you're not gonna win it's a untenable unwinnable game did you have some before

[00:27:56] we went into that did you have some more disconnects just one moment and it's something that we've kind of already been talking about is just that like the reputation precedes an employer by experience so job seekers

[00:28:09] talk and especially Gen Z folks but like a lot of job seekers tell their friends don't it don't apply to Acme brick that's a real company don't apply because they put me through the ringer for six weeks and then ghosted me and

[00:28:29] they take note of some of that really bad you know what some would call toxic behavior and they tell all their friends and none of their friends will I and so this has a big trickle-down effect in terms of like how

[00:28:44] so that's another big disconnect of employers really realized that they do have reputations and they should focus a lot on their employer brand and being as authentic as they can so that way there are no surprises and ratings are

[00:28:57] two-way street like man my youngest son was asking me about this just days like can you cancel a ride in the middle of a ride no once they pick you up you've already you've sussed that out first of all they have

[00:29:12] information yeah you've already sussed that out because he was fascinated with with basically okay they've accepted your ride so the driver has accepted you you've accepted them okay so there's a mutual they're around the block they pick you up once they've picked you up we're agreed they're

[00:29:31] gonna take you to a place however they've got ratings if you act if you act in a terrible way in the car right they've got ratings for you and if they act terrible in the car you've got ratings for them so there's a mechanism

[00:29:47] there and I can see can't the kids have been doing with your sister company glass door the kids have and employees have always had a way to kind of talk about like their experience which is great I want to I

[00:30:01] want to get to a point where recruiters have ratings I know that recruiters are gonna hate this by the way however I'm sure they will however and hiring managers to my if I had my druthers it would be both it'd be

[00:30:14] everyone if you touch talent and in the candidate experience you have ratings well they do that for CEOs and executives right why couldn't we do that for recruiters but dude now I know that I'm doing with a 1.2

[00:30:28] instead of a five-star mm-hmm like if I know if I'm dealing with a one put fire first of all why they still there if they're a 1.2 right sure because it would it would it would it would again people are gonna have bad

[00:30:40] people are gonna act bad no matter what you do you're always gonna go to the Luxor or the win your choice like you have the option Kyle are you see are you seeing a difference between larger enterprise mega corporations and

[00:30:55] the local companies in in in the disconnect in terms of the example you gave for example friends will give you bad reviews or friends will not refer other friends to apply if you treat them poorly so a local mom and

[00:31:13] pops at dry cleaners or a restaurant or you know a supermarket that's local as opposed to a Nike store are you seeing a difference there well there's short answer is no because the smaller the store they can of course turn on a dime

[00:31:32] so if they needed to shift how they do things and how they operate it's much easier for them to do so but they don't have as much access to information that some of the larger companies might so these larger

[00:31:46] companies might have more data in terms of what works and doesn't work for them because they of course have larger volumes but it's much harder for them to turn that large monster to shift their practices right so yeah I in

[00:32:05] terms of like how they manage talent I see the same common misconceptions no matter what the size of the company could be a small franchise right this is it could be a gigantic global corporation and they

[00:32:19] both say the exact same thing where it's like we don't understand what's going on or we don't understand how fast we can like or how quickly we can make these changes it's like that old thing friends don't let friends

[00:32:32] drink and drive friends don't let friends apply to company X I think I think the thing for me is the authenticity is the hardest for me I think it's the hardest algebra to solve for these companies is because they

[00:32:49] have either they have a really terrible culture and they know it or they're in the they're in the midst of changing their culture and so their culture is aspirational it's not what they are now it's what they

[00:33:03] would like to be and then they have a hard time telling that story and in the case of it being a terrible culture they have a hard time telling that story because they want to tell a story over here that's magical and

[00:33:15] then you know everyone has a happy ending in this story over here and the truth isn't that way so then you recruit the people based on being on inauthentic they get in they stay for a little while they earn a

[00:33:30] paycheck or two maybe they stay a while longer and they're really looking to leave because you lied to them this has all been based on a lie so how do you teach people to be authentic it's really teaching folks how

[00:33:46] to listen then it is how to be authentic because most of the companies that I've worked with they don't know what their cultures like to be able to ask them like how would you describe your cult as if it

[00:33:59] were a personality how would you describe it and you just start looking at each other because they don't really know and I don't think ever been defined for them in a lot of cases or if it has been defined there's

[00:34:11] there's a very small overlap of Venn diagram those who haven't it's not defined and those who are acting on a set of values or a mission statement and is a very small sliver of companies that do both that know it

[00:34:27] and act on it all the time and those are usually the companies that considered cult brands right the the ones that engender so much loyalty from their customers as well as their employees right it's to get to the

[00:34:39] point of understanding what the culture is like they just have to listen to their employees and most companies that I've talked to they only pull on one lever to really understand how their folks feel and they do

[00:34:50] engagement surveys or pull surveys and I don't know the big issue with those is that folks never believe that they're fully anonymous so so they're not going to be truthful in terms of being critical about who they work for and

[00:35:10] where they work and the friction between them and their best work so all these internal surveys that folks are like living and breathing they're always more positive than they actually love my boss reality yeah

[00:35:22] love the team CEO's visions may amazing that's why I like the way you can't do this unless you're in the office really anonymous unless they have cameras watching it but the little bathroom sensors right there the green face the

[00:35:37] red right you just tap the button and you move on I love those things like I I tap them all the time then I get yelled at because I touched a dirty thing I'm so terrible with those things especially at airports where I

[00:35:50] just keep pushing but I'll just stand in front of it and push all the buttons but if I have to do that at home or if I have to do that somewhere they're gonna track me like I feel like we're gonna track me yeah like yeah

[00:36:05] yeah so like what we would we advise employers to pull on more than one lever to understand how their folks are doing and then give them like an actual safe environment to speak their minds and the companies that do

[00:36:19] this the best are doing state interviews yeah and they're and the state interviews are always conducted by someone that is not in the chain of command of the person being interviewed so it's never someone manager or managers manager yeah right here why why why is this

[00:36:35] interesting to you yeah just say like what do you need to stay here for another year I need just let them talk okay and they will tell you everything that they need in order to say for having and that's those are

[00:36:47] some of the more authentic ways to understand and listen to the culture and see what folks need and then obviously like external reviews is is another lever that folks pull on but they don't necessarily think that any

[00:37:00] of those are truthful just like well if someone's super critical about you externally and it means that they don't feel like they have a place internally to actually share these feelings so I wouldn't necessarily think that they're lying but rather they're finally getting something off

[00:37:16] of their chest so we should be listening to them with the same intensity that we listen to engagement surveys so do you and again this is all kind of a work in progress where's culture derived is it because a lot of people put it in

[00:37:32] HR they put it at the C-suite sometimes they put it the examples was famously they put it at the office the receptionist and they put it at the employee level that basically culture comes from so you've got come

[00:37:47] from the top come from the bottom or come from somebody cultures are in HR what's your what you know what's your work in thesis right now where does culture come from so the what I'm about to say comes from I spent a

[00:38:02] lot of time I worked at Apple for five years and then I went and I studied companies like Bruce Carlton and Starbucks and Disney and so what I found was that culture really comes from the people right and each

[00:38:16] department is going to be slightly different in how they act but that's essentially what the culture is but from the top down those are like that's the values that's the mission of the purpose so if you don't have a

[00:38:28] purpose statement then you've got all these different many cultures the subcultures all going in completely different directions if you have one more star then everybody is together in what their pursuit is but my biggest

[00:38:44] finding or my biggest belief is that fish are out from the head so you can have one of the best cultures on the planet and everybody loves working with each other but if you have one toxic leader everyone that works

[00:38:56] underneath that hates their job so yeah I was gonna that was gonna ask this before William did and he kind of answered it but I you know maybe go deeper on it when you're when you study these companies and you're seeing

[00:39:10] that they have different cultures or a variation of what the initial culture potentially is in the different departments is that based I've always had this feeling that it's been built on the hiring manager itself so if there's a hiring manager in what we'll call it the engineering

[00:39:30] department and they're doing all the hiring and they're doing it free will they don't have gloves on or you know cuffs on or anything and they're hiring their own people who are like them people they like people that have their

[00:39:42] potential you know in their mind potential for them aren't they in a sense building their own culture from department to department to department so that's kind of where I've always laid culture for companies like you're describing that have a variation of culture and all of these

[00:39:58] different departments I've always looked at it as the hiring manager setting that culture right or wrong that's just kind of how I always felt about it yeah I don't think you're wrong at all but I didn't think that's

[00:40:09] right there's a small evolution I think that's happening though with companies that are trying to be more equitable and inclusive as part of their values or even part of their mission so from the top down it says

[00:40:23] we don't want you to hire people that are exactly like you we want you to go outside of your comfort zone of talent and look for diverse voices when managers or middle managers are given that kind of directive then I think

[00:40:39] that opens up the that idea of just folks hiring folks like themselves but again that has to come from their leadership as well and if that's not something that is thought of the senior leadership level then I think

[00:40:53] what you said is exactly what's gonna take place is that you've got hiring straight white men yeah the board has set forth and the c-suite has set forth values vision and purpose even in that scenario run where people

[00:41:08] are are hiring kind of their own to their own culture mm-hmm there's still a deal they should be still doing it within those two right right so I think this is one of the misnomers in our industry is that there isn't

[00:41:24] one culture it's cultures plural calcet it it's all these different types of cultures you got a New York sales office and you know you're gonna use New Zealand sales office those they're still selling they're still doing

[00:41:37] certain things within the process that are exactly the same but to say that they behave in the same way is it's not true so I can't I can't see that I think it's again that rock rock the fish rotting deal is it's

[00:41:52] really a great example of thinking about okay listen if it's right it and up here it's gonna eventually be rotten everywhere yeah it's just a question of time so this great disconnect let's uh how do we how do we shore this up

[00:42:07] so now let's fix it yeah you've got 30 seconds Kyle go and we're gonna serve a hunger after that yeah well what's your because you're advising clients on these things so you are help trying to help them fix things

[00:42:25] so where do you what's your what's your go-to so you explain here are the disconnects and it's like okay resolution because you need resolution on these things what's your where do you start yeah an authentic employer

[00:42:40] brand is is up there as kind of a leading pollution for a lot of this telling folks exactly what type of culture and exactly what type of environment that they can expect even if it doesn't seem super attractive that's

[00:42:54] okay people value or respect the transparency more so than the perfect work condition so that's number one number two is like also just give your employees a choice I don't know if y'all are familiar with the longest

[00:43:10] running study on happiness is the Harvard study of development yeah they found that choice was the number one determining factor but it's not once happiness and so if someone feels like they do better work at home give them

[00:43:27] the option to do so and if they feel like they do better work in the office give them the option to do so and just allowing adults to make their own decisions on where they're gonna do their best work and how

[00:43:38] they're gonna do their best work obviously you'll you need to as a business to need to create some goals surrounding that but there are certain worlds where there's no no reason why we need to force someone into a car for

[00:43:52] two hours a day it doesn't make that business any more money if they're in a car for two hours a day it definitely makes the employee less likely to be happy when they're at work if they're forced to go into an

[00:44:05] office so it's the commute to is dread because of traffic and the commute home is frustration because of traffic you know I'm saying like you hit him twice in one day and then usually that commute home that really you could have

[00:44:27] ended a great day yeah you could have had a really cool day did a bunch of cool stuff and all of a sudden you get in your car and Austin has terrible traffic.

[00:44:36] Austin's a specific guy. It's really LA kind of ish traffic like it's it doesn't matter like in Dallas okay seven to nine is a little bit tough okay four to about six get a little bit tough but other

[00:44:54] than that it's pretty easy to get places in Dallas. In Austin you could be there at 11 on a Saturday night and it's locked down. It is insane like LA you just be out on the five and all of a sudden it's like why is this a parking

[00:45:10] lot I don't understand but you to your point Kyle you hit him twice they're dreading that I gotta go sit in that yeah I gotta go sit in that traffic and then at the end of the day even a great day you hit him with the frustration

[00:45:22] on the way home. Well not to mention like getting ready to go to work that's a whole another hour of these before you even get in the car so that's two hours in the morning just to work and you're not getting paid of course

[00:45:36] for any of that and then another hour to get home and so yeah so giving folks a choice some people do prefer to be in office and I love that for them they should have that option and then the last little like if we

[00:45:52] are to solve all the world's problems as we are reduce as many barriers as you possibly can between getting someone to apply to your jobs like there's no reason why we need them to jump through so many loops a lot of

[00:46:04] employers are so worried about not finding the perfect candidate but the perfect candidate is gonna choose you if you're authentic about the environment and the in the workspace that you're gonna be providing for that so the one that has agreed to work with you even through the

[00:46:21] unattractive language that you might share with them that's the perfect so those are the three main things I would love for employers to start considering going forward. Great advice absolutely great advice thank you so much Kyle carving out time helping us helping the audience this has just been

[00:46:39] wonderful thank you. Thank you all very big fans of you guys.