When AI Systems, Startups, and Public Policies Collide

[00:00:00] Two of our favorite podcasts are crossing over every two weeks. Kate Achille of Up Next at Work and George LaRocque of WorkTech look at the tech, business, and people that impact our HR and work tech industry. It's a cross-pod with a unique strategic lens on what's happening in our world. Enjoy! Hey, Kate. Hey, George. How's it going?

[00:00:22] It's busy. You wouldn't know summer's around the corner. I feel like everybody's just running at 100 miles an hour. Well, it's about 100 degrees out today, so at least it feels like summer here. It is. It is. And it's too hot. Walking the dog at 8 a.m. is usually refreshing, and today it was gross. Yes. But how are you? I'm doing pretty well. I'm just back from my sister's bachelorette party in Puerto Rico, so living the dream. Fun. Yeah, very fun.

[00:00:51] Nothing like being a bachelorette in your 40s. Was it like full, like, did you get like T-shirts and like, I don't want any details. We're not supposed to talk about any. I was in charge of the theme. I'll leave it there. All right. Okay. All right. Yes. But we got a lot to cover today. We do. We do. We do. I think I'm up first. Yeah. Yeah. Go for it.

[00:01:13] So if you're not aware, we've got another lawsuit in around AI or potentially I, it's a gentleman in IBM who had been with IBM for a number of years and was a manager, was laid off. And then he reapplied to positions that were, you know, what the suit claims, alleges that they are, you know, similar.

[00:01:41] He's qualified for and had been and worked at IBM for 20 something years, was in his 40s and was just immediately received the like click apply, get the rejection letter. Kind of that's what it, that's what it sounded like in the article. And they're claiming age discrimination, which is also, you know, the basis for the ongoing Mobley workday suit.

[00:02:06] So another one, and I, I, we've said this before, I think we're going to be looking at new lawsuits like this for a while until decisions start getting made. And there's some sort of precedence set around how, how, how these systems are being used. And this goes beyond the systems with IBM. You know, they're, they're claiming just like flat out age bias as well. Anyhow, I don't know if you had a chance to take a peek at it. It did.

[00:02:33] You know, what's interesting is in his lawsuit, he actually is not asking for a review of their technical systems. Oh, okay. So he, I mean, he is claiming that the AI is biased in the suit, but he's not actually asking for a review of the technology. He just wants his job back and he wants back pay because yeah, to your point, he was there for like 24 years, ostensibly his entire career because he's 48.

[00:02:58] And he, he says he never had any issues and yeah, they let it, they eliminated his position, but then immediately were hiring. So not a good look for IBM. Yeah. Yeah. He alleges. Yeah. He alleges the company has targeted older workers for termination consultants and executives and emails called older workers, oldies and gray hairs. And the article keeps timing out on me. It keeps wanting me to subscribe. It wasn't doing that yesterday.

[00:03:27] So as I'm trying to read the details, but, but it just sounds like an icky, icky environment. So. Yeah. Yeah. I think, but. It's not a good look for IBM. It is interesting because the headline is about AI. No, no, not at all. Yeah. I think that's just sensationalized a bit.

[00:03:45] I think there is an AI component of this because he was, I guess, auto rejected when he reapplied by whatever AI, you know, IBM has, you know, their CHRO has been very public out speaking a lot in recent years talking about their move to AI systems. So I think maybe, maybe too public.

[00:04:06] And so this lawsuit is timed very well, again, as so many are, because his position was, I guess, in September 2024 is when he was eliminated, which is, I think, around the time that they moved to all AI within the HR department. That's a really interesting point. Yeah. Because wasn't that when she was, I believe, like this keynote speaker at HR Tech? It was 2024. It was definitely, I think it might have been.

[00:04:31] But it was definitely in that 2023, 20, it wasn't last year, right? It wasn't 2025. No, I don't think it was last year. I think it was the year before. And, or maybe it was last, you know, time is a flat circle. Yeah. But yeah. So, and the whole storyline from IBM has been about how they've changed all of their HR to AI and yada yada. So the fact that this happened to him while all of that was taking place, you know.

[00:04:59] See, if they just would have, if they would have stayed on Brass Ring, there'd be no AI to worry about. Yes. Yes, exactly. It wasn't the world just a much simpler place without it. Well, and speaking of AI and employees, our second story comes out of New York Tech Week. And the team over at HR Brew covered this one. And this one just, this one got me when I saw it.

[00:05:25] The headline was, making the case for fractional and AI employees, which I was like, okay, where are we going with this one? And I guess a panel at New York Tech Week has proposed pairing fractional and agent workers to scale startups so that companies do not have to pay a full-time wage. Yeah. And the direct quote was, now is a time where we can start to think critically about the team as another product that you're building. Yep. People as product.

[00:05:55] So in my comment to you, I said, you know, we've gone from people are our biggest asset or to people are a commodity, like real quick. Well, it wasn't HR week. It was tech week. So. It was tech week. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I, I think that's the, we're, we dance all around this. I, you know, I think the, it's related to the, I've been having a lot of conversations around the cost.

[00:06:22] So this, this makes some assumptions about the cost being lower or, and the efficiency, efficiency being higher. And that's not what's proving out in the world. Part of it is the cost of tokens and part of it is just the, the failure to deliver. It's just not delivering value where we thought it would. That's not true across the board, but in many places.

[00:06:46] But the other thing is just the, the, the, the appetite in corporate America for, for this is this world where we're driven by quarterly earnings. And, and, and that mindset, not everybody's a public company. I don't have no idea who exactly said this, but. Well, they're talking specifically about startups. So like startup culture is so intense. Right.

[00:07:09] Well, you think I was, that's, then that's where I was headed was even though you get the public companies and then you get into private equity and you get into startups and it's this, you know, how are we doing? The name of the company was like build momentum or something too. Like that's the name of the guy that was speaking. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it got it, you know, it's an HR. Yeah. You got, got a, got a headline. We're talking about them. Yeah. But I mean, how we're, we're, we're now devaluing humans to the same level as agents. So. Yeah.

[00:07:38] I mean, I know we're, you know, we're in the, you know, we've talked about like the pendulum swinging between, you know, the employer driven market and the candidate driven market. And we are very much in the employer driven market right now. But like, this is, this is, it's, it's one farther than I think I thought it could. Well, and I've had, we haven't talked about Eightfold in a while, but they pivoted off and created this digital twin company. Yes. Yes. I've had a, I saw a pitch this week from a startup.

[00:08:05] I won't mention them because they're still figuring out, figuring things out, but, but they were another digital twin for management. And I, you know, to your point, it's like, where do we need humans if not in, you know, managing and performance and feedback. And because this isn't having a tool that helps you do a better job. It's, it's a twin. It's exactly what they're talking about. Having a agent next to you.

[00:08:32] And I, I, I feel like I'm so dubious of all of the pitches with, with this technology, because it feels like a smokescreen for, you know, the next thing to happen, which is the replacement of the human or the fractionalization of the, of the human. Like this, this article suggests, I don't know. I don't know. It's got your favorite app in here. In the article, it talks about open claw, which is. It really just reminds me.

[00:09:01] Open claw just makes me think of inspector gadget. I think it's part of the problem. If anybody remembers inspector gadget, cause claw was the bad guy. I think that's why I have such an aversion to, oh, I have, you know, for other reasons, but I think that's really why it just gets me. So speaking of getting me another one that really got me this week was the office of personnel management who I, I do have a personal.

[00:09:23] I do have a personal issue with funny enough has awarded Oracle, a $396 million, 10 year contract to build and operate a single cloud-based HR platform for the entire U S federal government. And so they're saying that by doing this, you know, by bringing all the agencies onto this one platform, it's going to cut what the government spends on HR tech by more than 90%, which is a very bold claim. That's huge.

[00:09:53] I would love to see their research on that. Of course they did not provide it. And the losing bidder on this was workday. Which was just awarded this same contract a year ago. Yeah. So they're not even, I'm sure they're, if they're live anywhere with workday, it's, you know, a couple of pilot instances. It's not, you know, that, that is not a 12 month process to take something that big live on workday.

[00:10:20] Well, also think about if they're going to put all of the federal government on one single Oracle platform, think about how many HR tech companies right now are freaking out the industry because they've now just lost their contract with the government. Right. Right. So the entire industry is losing a massive amount of business potentially. Well, it will. I mean, it's going to take a minute. Yeah. Yeah. I was just about to say, it's going to take a little while for them to, to lose it. And so who's the monopoly too? Who owns Oracle?

[00:10:50] I believe that's Larry Ellison. Yeah. Yeah. Keep hearing that. He's named in the article, by the way. He is named in the article. And workday does apparently have a 10 day window to mount a legal challenge as the, as the loser. Obviously, you know, you already mentioned that they're tied up in some other legal challenges right now. So I don't know if they will appeal this again though. And so I mentioned that I have a personal issue with OPM.

[00:11:17] The reason I do is because, and this is why I really don't like a single platform, the entire government being on a single platform. I was affected by the OPM breach that happened about 20 years ago. My personal information was taken when OPM was hacked back in 2007. So the U.S. government has, had been paying to monitor my identity up until last year.

[00:11:41] So for 15 years, the U.S. government had been paying for like incredibly ridiculous monitoring for me because, and thousands of other people because OPM had been breached. Okay. Because I, I started my, my very first job out of college, I was an AmeriCorps member. And so I had to go through all sorts of government clearances as part of that.

[00:12:02] So again, having one centralized HR technology platform being the underpinning of the entire U.S. federal government just doesn't really seem like a great idea to me given their track record. But yeah, I just had to start paying for my own monitoring last year. So. Wow. That's my thoughts on this one. That's a, I think that's a really good point. I think it just, it also just reeks of, I mean, I knew who the, who founded Oracle, but I, I, but the point being like that name. Yeah.

[00:12:31] That name is in the news with other, you know, contracts that they're mergers that they're winning. And. Friends of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, time. I guess there are a lot of things happening in the world right now in our neck of the woods where we'll see how things go over the next year to two and a half years. Yeah. And things may, may change. Yep.

[00:12:59] I'm just hoping there's some incredible security on whatever this platform is. I agree. And that it's not all AI. Right. So that brings us to another government story that you brought up. You want to. Yeah. So the, I've, I'm putting out a bunch of reports lately and digging in with a number of providers that are all around the job space. And a big part of that is early careers.

[00:13:26] And, and while I'm doing this research around this, I've got next week, I'll be putting something out about the early career market. So I've been looking at universities and I've been looking at all this. And then lo and behold, you know, as I'm doing this work in mid April, the department of education issued a proposed rule. And it just bubbled up in the last couple of weeks. Like it really hit the wire, even though it was announced in April. I think it got confused.

[00:13:52] This, this, this proposed rule that they're putting out, it got confused with a lot of other things that are, that are happening, but it's to hold colleges and universities accountable for low earning outcomes. And this is, it's, I don't know how else to, to look at it other than an attack on, on education, on, you know, universities, especially degrees that are not, you know, hard skill based.

[00:14:19] Like you're an engineer or you're a, a doctor or a nurse, like it's high wages specifically. So if you're, if you're, if you have a liberal arts education and you might be going on a career arc. Basic change in the world of business is fast and that drives incredible complexity for the world of human resources. Welcome to the HR Data Labs Brown Bag Lunch.

[00:14:42] Series of conversations with experts inside and outside the world of human resources on how to innovate, measure and evolve our practices. Our goal is to help provide you with practical examples of how HR has to change and to meet in this complex business environment. Every week we'll talk to new and different voices on all aspects of human resources. And guess what? You get to chat with us live. Live? Live.

[00:15:10] So they can answer questions or, or they can ask us questions. They can ask, they can answer whatever they want. They get to talk with us live. That's awesome. Sometimes we geek out on the data and technology that underlie the processes that drive the world of HR. But the conversations are always insightful and fun. So please enjoy the HR Data Labs Brown Bag Lunch.

[00:15:35] That has a much longer tail to, to earnings and earnings might not be what's driving you. Earnings might not be what's, what's motivating you in your, in your education. You might not be, you know, a living wage might be more important to you than making the most possible money that you can make or affording to live where you want to live.

[00:15:55] This is basically saying that in order for grants to be issued to universities, in order for money to flow, the universities need to deliver wage results to students when they graduate. And it sounds, if you just stop there, it sounds okay to hold universities accountable.

[00:16:46] And be more valuable and be more, you know, do better work in this age of AI. Gosh, it's the skills that AI can't do. It sounds more like liberal arts education than it does, you know, becoming a coder or someone, you know, doing knowledge work that is more desk oriented and that you could probably align with higher wages today, but not necessarily two years from now.

[00:17:13] I'm trying to like stay calm because I get really upset about this, but it's, it's, you know, again, I think there, there are plenty of problems to solve around higher age. I've got two kids in college and it's way too expensive and there's, there are way too many unknowns. All of that is true, but I'm not sure this is the way to go out, go about it.

[00:17:34] So this is, this is something that as I peel this back, it's, it's, it's going, this is another thing that's going to create, it's just like the ACA, the affordable care when the affordable care act hit. So what this is going to do to, to the university landscape. Yeah. After you said this to me, you know, as you mentioned, like it, it just bubbled up. So I hadn't heard anything about it.

[00:17:57] So I went looking for more information, especially because it was noted that the period for comment on this had ended May 20th. And so we're now almost at mid June. So I was like, okay, well, what's happened? I couldn't really find much. The only thing I found was I did find something from the American council on education. I found their comments that they had submitted and they had, they had a lot to say.

[00:18:25] And, you know, they made several arguments about this. The most interesting one that they made, which I will share was that. So also, I guess this ties to the one big, beautiful bill. This is like somehow connected to that. Okay. And it's something about it. They're, they're trying to tie the accountability of the earnings to a certain age group.

[00:18:50] And so the age group is, I guess, like 25 to 34. And so the point that the ACE is making, you really can't compare what somebody just coming out of college who has like a certificate is going to make to somebody who has, you know, a decade of experience who's 34 is going to make. And so I guess the way it's written, they're just going to look at like median earnings for these, for these universities. And like, that's how they're going to assess them.

[00:19:20] And so they're, and they want, they want, if they're going to try to pass this, they want better calculations. They want better data. And the way that the rule is, the proposed rule is right now, they have like flawed thresholds is what they say. There's like basically no appeal process for the colleges and universities. And again, I get the idea of return on investment for your education. If you're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars, there should be some, some sort of return. But right now it says institutions can only appeal calculations based on mathematical errors.

[00:19:49] That's it. And they would be made by the education department. Yeah. So again, going back to, going back to transparency and visibility. And I guess the proposal is to strip all title nine eligibility, including Pell Grants from low earnings programs. And so they're saying that goes beyond the scope of existing law. And they also have, they've put like, you know, penalties on other things. And it also just puts additional administrative burden that like these, these programs don't have in place right now.

[00:20:19] So they're saying that they should delay all of this until these colleges and universities can actually build offices or, you know, at least hire somebody to do the calculations necessary for some of this. Because if they are going to implement a rule like this, they should at least let the colleges and universities figure out any of the math. And I think, you know, that's at least fair. You know, if we're, if we're going to start judging people on math, we should let people do the math first. Yeah. Yeah. That seems pretty basic.

[00:20:47] But I do agree that, yeah, if we're going to start with age ranges for assessing this return, that's also a little strange because yeah, I wasn't making a 34 when I was making a 24 for sure. Right. Right. I think it's, there are like, like you've said, like, like I said earlier, there are a lot of problems to solve here. And, and I, I, I, I like those problems being solved. I think that's good. I've got, you know, one more kid coming up and this won't be solved by the time she gets

[00:21:16] there, but, but it's, if it's ever solved. But I think there's a lot of value that education delivers that doesn't necessarily have to do with the, you know, the numbers on your, that look like your annual earnings. And I think this reduces a lot of that. And, and I am 100% for education being more affordable and everybody getting it in the, you know, everybody who wants it should get it in the U S it shouldn't be a huge financial

[00:21:46] risk to take. That being said, this is also being done and there isn't an article on this, but I've seen a couple of, so I come at everything from the, through the tech lens at the certification level. So like, if you're going to get certified to become, like, I know we have electricians in our families, right. Should be an electrician. There are already, there's already pressure at that level for like quota attainment with,

[00:22:14] you know, placement coming out. I don't know that it's measured by dollars as much as placement. I could be wrong on that, but that, so this, this is happening and they've got a whole movement around apprenticeships within the skilled trades and other areas where that's relevant. And I think, I, I think, you know, somebody who's going to a technical training program to get a certification, I think their assumption and everybody's assumption is that that's a

[00:22:43] ticket to a job and that's a ticket to an apprenticeship. So having that all connect, all those dots connected is a good thing. Um, and I, I don't, I, I just don't, I want to be sure that we're not just, you know, over indexing on dollars and not the quality of what we're doing and not, not solving a, a generational problem by just focusing on the next two, three years and, and, and how this

[00:23:12] looks, because I think this is a much bigger issue. There's a, there's a huge issue with what are the skills these, these young people are getting as they enter the workforce, whether it's the trades or whether it's sitting in an office or working remotely and how are those going to stack up? So. Yeah. It also, I mean, I guess the proposed initial rule, they wanted to put it into effect July one of this year. That's so that's, that's why, you know, the American council on education was like, Hey, maybe we should delay that.

[00:23:41] Cause again, it's just a lot that I'm trying to do here, uh, in a very short amount of time. And again, I, I couldn't find anything about whether or not this was like what, when they're going to assess the comments that they received, what they're doing with this information that they received back from. That, and that, that must've been at the comment period having ended or ending that was, there was like a flurry as I was researching and the, all of a sudden it was like, Whoa, I'm getting all this.

[00:24:11] They're right around May 20th. But then there's nothing since. So I don't know when they're reviewing or, you know, going to publish anything on the next steps. But the other thing too, is it also just feels like, are we just tracking people to track people? Cause like, are you doing this voluntarily or are you just taking my sat? Like, are you just taking my earnings information for this purpose? Or do I get a say? Cause I, that wasn't clear to me. There was a program in this administration's first run.

[00:24:39] I think it was called the learner and earner database. There were big meetings between government and, you know, CEOs and folks about creating this centralized database. And it was, you know, to address employment, but it was a, it was, it was taking what they, what's bifurcated across, you know, different systems for, it might be for healthcare. It might be for taxes.

[00:25:06] It might be, you know, different, different databases that don't, don't overlap and sort of pulling everything together, including, you know, your work, everything, where you are, your work history, et cetera, et cetera. So I don't know if this is like the next, you know, the evolution of that in the next term or, or, or an outcome of that. But don't worry, there'll be one platform soon with all your data. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:35] Well, Oracle is getting the federal government and Oracle didn't they, aren't they the TikTok owners now? Yeah. So they're on everybody's phones. Anyhow. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Conspiracy theory. But also if you want to get a job, we learned this week how to be a, how to get the attention of Anthropic. I mean, if anybody, I mean, you know, and obviously there's a lot happening with Anthropic in the news this week. Yeah.

[00:26:02] But I did think this one was kind of interesting because this, this was presented at a fortune's brainstorm tech event. And it came from Boris Cherney. I don't know if I'm saying that right. The creator of Claude Code. He gave three, three things that they apparently look for to help you stand out to be what they consider a good hire. They like generalists. They like people with low ego and people who are able to admit failure and move on.

[00:26:31] I don't know how that like really comes across in one's application. Not that you're really applying to Anthropic. They also, they also, the second you feel a bit redundant to me, but you know, if anyone's listening who, you know, really has a burning desire to, to throw their hat in the Anthropic ring, you know, again, there's a lot happening over there. Yeah. I guess, by the way, excellent segue. Thanks for pulling us out of the spiral. So I just want to acknowledge that.

[00:27:00] But also this, it surprises me because this sounds like these are the things that I would look at a battery of assessments or a thorough assessment. And I just can't imagine that I could be wrong, but I can't imagine that they're making their hiring decisions based on behavioral science. And they're, they're much more skills-based is my assumption, just based on. I would think so. Yeah. I would think so.

[00:27:26] And yeah, also like, again, how does one portray that in a cover letter or resume? Right. Well, and that was the context of, of the comments too, right? Like, like it wasn't about like the, the data that they're looking at and how they're, they ascertain this. It was, yeah. Well, I, I get the generalist bit because I, I think again, like in this world of AI, if, if you're anthropic and you're clearly, you know, you, you are not just believing all

[00:27:55] the hype, you are part of it. Then you, I can see how they would, it makes sense to me. Somebody who has, isn't narrow and can, can evolve and shift gears, you know, as priorities change and things change. But yeah. And low ego, I assume it's a pretty high ego environment. So. Yeah. The people that I know who have gone to Anthropical, I only know a couple and I'm not going to name them to be terrible, but I'm going to say not low ego.

[00:28:24] They're not low ego people. Not that, I'm not saying they're like bad, high ego people. Just like not the first thing that comes to mind. If that's not on their profile, like low ego, low ego people. No, no. All right. Well, that brings us to our Rose and our Sorn for the week. What do you got? This is the biggest challenge every week, but I have every time, but I have a good, a good Rose.

[00:28:51] I dropped off our daughter in Boston and she is on her internship this summer with Pfizer in a corporate strategy type team. She's the intern. So, you know, like, you know, she's, and it, you know, it was just a very, it's just really cool to see a 21 year old, you know, getting out. And I've never worked in a company as big as Pfizer.

[00:29:19] I've, you know, and, and it's just, it's, that's the Rose. Just watching that blossoming to no, no pun intended happening. It's also Boston. She was born there. And so she gets to explore and, and, you know, she doesn't really know it that, that well we visit now and then, but so that's cool living through her eyes. And I, I have to say that my, my thorn, I just can't get, I just can't get past the educational stuff this week.

[00:29:48] So I don't have a, you know, we already talked about it. I'm not going to belabor the point, but because I have, you know, students that are, you know, children that are students that are not, we've been navigating this. It, it, it really is maddening to me as I continue to navigate this. And I, I'm rolling my eyes a lot at, you know, so many aspects of it, but you know, they're the, the, the thing that I'm most excited about is the experience that they're,

[00:30:17] that they're having not, it doesn't really have much to do with a lot of what is, is shaped as what's supposed to be the most valuable part of their experience. So it's just interesting. The whole thing's interesting, but yeah. So that's, that's me. Oh, was I supposed to go Rose and then wait for the thorn? No, no, no, no, no, no. We usually do yours and then I go, I go with mine. So my Rose this week is, it was one that we considered doing a story on, but I'm going to use it as my Rose.

[00:30:44] And that is that the city of Seattle has enacted a year long ban on new, new AI data centers. Yay, Seattle. And I think this one is interesting because on our last episode, I gave the analogy about, you know, how AI is kind of like a carnival roller coaster where, you know, Joe Dirt is behind the, behind the controls. And so the city of Seattle, major U.S. city, also one that is known for tech innovation is hitting pause and they're hitting pause on new data centers.

[00:31:13] And they're framing this as a pause because they want to draft regulations on new data centers. And, you know, I'm not totally surprised that it's Seattle because they are a very eco-conscious part of the country. You know, I learned from a new former CEO of Seekout that they, they don't use salt on their roads because the runoff would impact the salmon population. So they sand instead of salt. Okay. We should really be doing here in New Jersey, but yeah. So like, again, very eco-conscious part of the country.

[00:31:42] So yeah, the entire city of Seattle, no new data centers for at least the next year while they assess and draft up some regulations. So for me, that's a rose because a lot of this has just been moving way too fast. So I think it, I think it makes sense to, to put some guardrails in place. And then my thorn is today is the opening day of the world cup. And so that is actually happening in New Jersey, not New York, despite what people are telling you.

[00:32:07] So the reason it is a thorn and not a rose is twofold. One, it is impacting this area in a major way, transportation wise, which it's already known for having its issues. There's already been some pretty poor treatment of some of the teams from other countries. It's not getting a lot of news, but in light of current struggles, we'll say certain teams from certain countries are not getting the welcome that they deserve.

[00:32:34] And, you know, I read about some of this, like coming through that, what I, the, what I read, there may be more that you're alluding to, but yeah. Was just getting through customs and border patrol type experience in the airport. Yeah. And some of some people who are supposed to be with them, you know, as support have not been allowed in at all. Yeah. Things of that nature. And, you know, I think for global events, we should really all be coming together and

[00:33:02] we should be representing our best selves. And I don't necessarily think that we're doing that right now. Maybe things will get better. And given that this is in our backyard, I wish we were doing, you know, really showing, showing these people a warm welcome. And especially, you know, the U S is set to host the Olympics in 2028. Yeah. I'll be it in LA. So I am, I'm, I'm hopeful that everything will go well, but again, so far a little bit thorny on that, on that side. So we'll see. Yeah. But, uh, also go next.

[00:33:33] I, I had seen some fans that weren't allowed in the country and these are people, this is like a major, this is something people save up for to do. These aren't like rich people. And I, I had, you know, that's, that's a good thorn to call attention to for everyone. You're a Knicks fan. I am a New York fan. Okay. I can't say, I can't claim to be, you know, a massive, uh, massive Knicks fan, but I am a New York, I am a New York supporter. All right. So. Okay. All right.

[00:34:03] All right. Well. Well, I'm not going to root for San Antonio. Come on. Right. Did you see what happened to the San Antonio fans in the city? Again, not our best love. No. Again, we should be doing better. Yep. A little thorny, a little thorny. Yeah. But I do still hope Knicks and Five, so. Yeah. Yeah. That, I mean, people are going nuts around here. Yeah. It's been a long time. Yeah. It has been a long time. Yeah. But yeah. Everyone behave themselves and be safe. Yes.

[00:34:33] Yes. Root for your teams and be nice to the people rooting for other teams. Yes. Whether it's the world club board. In the words of Bill and Ted, be excellent to each other. There you go. We'll leave it at that. Yeah. Talk to you soon. Take care. Thanks for listening to or watching Up Next at WorkTech. Brought to you by the WorkDefined Podcast Network, The Devon Group, and WorkTech.