Totally Rewarding Chats | Ep. 46: Managing a large global program

[00:00:00] All right, another Totally Rewarding Chats. I'm really excited about today. This is before we even introduce him, Paul. This is my photographer, best photography from World at Work of when I was on stage. Yeah. And I'll talk about that in a set. Well, I didn't turn off my watch when I was on the main stage. And so, yeah, you know, people are sending you text while you're up there, which is a little concerning. You're like, is my fly open?

[00:00:29] Like, you know, I kind of want to look, but I don't want to look like because I'm getting all these messages or how bad is it that I'm getting all these messages, but the best pictures came from Everon. So I'm excited to have him with us. Yeah, Everon, I don't remember what it was. I don't know that he came with the like, was this fly open? Like, was it that thing? Like, was it a, hey, Sean, XYZ? No, I think he might've put something like, hey, look at the clown I saw on stage and sent that picture.

[00:00:59] How are you, Everon? All good. All good. It's a great Monday here. So happy. And I think for that picture, though, I got just lucky, right? So I was just right in the middle of the thing. So I just, you know, took the chance and happy that it worked out for you. Absolutely. So when no one wants to come see you, Paul, there's always good seats available right in the middle. That's right. That's right.

[00:01:22] And then AI, they filled in the rest of the seats as they went. That's how it goes. I'm super excited to have Everon here. I know we'll cover a while of Everon to his background, but you've worked with him a bunch too in the World of Work Committee. Yeah. And a wealth of knowledge. So I always learn a ton every time I'm on or get a chance to talk to Everon. So Everon, give us your background and where you're at now and how you got where you are today.

[00:01:49] Yeah, definitely. Thanks. First of all, thank you so much for inviting me to total rewarding chats. I'm sure it's going to be rewarding for the ones who are watching as well. So I appreciate being here and seeing those smiling faces, Paul. I appreciate everything we did up to now as well. Yeah.

[00:02:08] Just a couple of things about myself. So originally from Turkey, after my master's, I had a chance to start my HR career in Flip Morris International in Everon. So that's how I kind of moved to Poland and started as an HR generalist to start with.

[00:02:30] But there I had a chance to actually see all the areas within HR, you know, what I would like more than the others. And that's how I jumped into Reward and Retain. That's how it was called, you know, many, many years ago. And from there onwards, I think I took the chance to experience different aspects of total rewards, meaning, you know, country kind of responsibilities, regional responsibilities and so on and so forth.

[00:02:58] At some point in time, you start looking for different variations of total rewards, meaning, you know, I had a chance to change companies, move to different industries like Sony Company, for example, Sony Electronics as well. And that kind of made me go back to my own country, Turkey. And then from there onwards, I started managing teams.

[00:03:24] So the leadership aspect came into play as well as change and communications within HR evolution as well. So there I moved to a Coca-Cola company, managed a couple of transactions, transitions in there. And then with M&As, I joined the Whirlpool Corporation in EMEA.

[00:03:49] Afterwards, I had a chance to move to global roles in the U.S. And since a couple of years, I've been working for Amcor on different roles, leading top rewards. And right now I'm based out of Michigan. We are in the midst of a huge M&A, almost done with it, but it's been a journey, I should say.

[00:04:18] And looking forward to the summer, just to have a little bit of rest. So that would be like a quick rundown. The fact that you're looking forward to the summer on mid-July tells me that it's been a busy time with M&A. Because for the rest of us in the Midwest, summer's halfway done, man. I know. I like that he also said that the people are the ones listening. It was plural. I appreciate that, Kevin. So you said you started. I'd just pick up on the one thing.

[00:04:47] Did you want to be, when you were at university, did you want to be in HR? Or did you have a role that, you know, how did you get into HR? Yeah, so it's a little bit funny because I guess it goes back to my root or origins, right? So my family, basically, they were farmers. Now they're retired. But I grew up as a farmer. That helped me kind of, you know, have the, you know, people aspect of it.

[00:05:17] So I kind of, you know, decided to study labor economics and industrial relations, which is pretty much tied to personnel back then, now human resources. But also somewhat tied to the unions too. So Turkey is not known as the best country with unions. But, you know, there are certain industries with unions.

[00:05:39] So I was always interested in understanding the psychology behind, but also, you know, how people are kind of, you know, doing what they do. And those kind of, you know, psychological questions that you would always ask. That helped me kind of, you know, choose my path in the labor, labor economics and industrial relations. But afterwards, intentionally, I got to know HR and I studied HR as master's degree.

[00:06:09] So that's how I jumped into the, let's say, academics of it. And now, if you ask, purposefully, I was looking for HR jobs. And, you know, by coincidence or by luck, I managed to get one and moved to Poland for that as well to get that sort of an experience.

[00:06:33] So I would say, you know, in a way, I kind of crafted it, you know, to combine the academics versus the real experience. So that puts you about 10 standard deviations away from the norm on how people, you on purpose wanted to be in there. So we'll have to save you on the little board somewhere. We have to go back to the couch. So we asked five questions to make sure you're human, everyone. Are you a coffee or tea person?

[00:07:03] Coffee for sure. Are you a coffee snob? I would say so. Yeah. Okay. That's fine. We won't expand on that. You can admit it. Like, I am. Like, let's just own it, right? Just own it. Yeah, it's okay. You've been around in many places. So the favorite spot that you have ever vacationed? Hard to choose.

[00:07:32] But I think it would be Maldives, most likely. And no one's going to argue with you. Yeah. Yeah. So you have a weekend away, Everett. No family responsibilities. Just you. They're all going somewhere else. Would you rather go somewhere to a posh, lavish resort? Or would you rather go camp out in the woods?

[00:08:01] I would choose the hybrid version. But I like to keep going. I like to keep going. So camping for that matter. So I like really nature. So let's go camping. I'm going to take that as a W, Paul. Move to the next question. That's how I'm going to do that. I'm going to take the win. So any big life events happening this month is the fourth question ever. And I'm excited we're able to make it. Anything big happening this month?

[00:08:29] Yeah, actually, it could happen at any point in time. So if I had to drop off from this call, you know, just my apologies. So I will be a father for the second time. Hopefully sooner or later. So we're just waiting the time to come when the baby wants to. But a really exciting moment for me these days. That means you'll be. I figured I'd get that out. You didn't cover it. I had to have a spare question in case. But you didn't cover it in the beginning.

[00:08:59] So I'm like, anything exciting? And then I'm waiting for you. So I'm going to run in and grab you on the way in the middle. Well, that just means that the Ildurum family will be a group of four at the next conference. Because I know that you traveled as a family to the last show. So now you have to have one more space in the hotel room this year. Really? My youngest, jokingly, we have three kids. And we had to sneak her in for the longest period of time. Because if you had five humans, it was an extra thing.

[00:09:27] And she wanted to know how old she was when she finally realized that her making a fort underneath the desk was just so that we could find another spot for her to sleep. She thought it was cool for the longest time. She fell for that for a long time. At some point, she realized we actually were just duping her. Yeah. We're smuggling you places. It's not actually a game. We did, actually. We would check in with three adults or with three people, an adult and two kids. And then the other one would sneak in later. Yeah.

[00:09:57] Now that I'm probably going to get a bill and arrears from Marriott. Totally. Are you a crunchy or creamy peanut butter person? Creamy peanut butter person, I think. Yes. Okay. So the reason I wanted to have you on, we've talked to several people. You have managed some enormous global programs. And so just at a very high level to start and then we can dig in.

[00:10:24] And what are your secrets or best practices or two or three things that you really start with when you go somewhere else to build a scalable global program? Yeah, I think a couple of things to mention when we talk about global programs or programs in general. I think the success of it is kind of depending upon how you are implementing those programs.

[00:10:49] So what I would say, more than the technical piece that we are kind of accumulating over the years, it's more understanding the culture where you're joining at, as well as kind of building relationships with your process partners as well as your stakeholders. So it would be kind of a couple of things that I consistently followed over the years that whenever I made a change.

[00:11:17] And then basically the success will follow on how you are kind of implementing on those programs. And obviously, the other piece there is what kind of matters at the time of you joining the company is kind of critical too. Rather than you kind of going there, something in mind and trying to fit whatever the square is.

[00:11:45] I think that kind of helps you to prioritize what you are going to implement upon building those relationships. So those will be a couple of things that I would put it out there to start with. Right. And then basically, as you kind of learn your job in there, you start experiencing, you know, what the job you think was when you were kind of having those conversations versus the reality.

[00:12:15] You kind of, you know, find your way in or out in most cases too. But as long as, you know, you kind of, you know, go from there, you will find your way. It's interesting because I think the one thing I take from that is the flexibility piece, right? Like, I mean, actually not even having an idea of we're going in there.

[00:12:39] And also kind of weirdly, the acceptance to what you spoke about during the job interview or whatever might not be exactly what you're inheriting. And like, at least your tone was kind of like, that's just going to happen. And so I'm going to get in, figure out what's important, figure out what's really going on. It's kind of interesting.

[00:12:59] It's a debate I have a lot with people about what changes really from like a lower enterprise size company to a major global enterprise size company, right? And it's really with the comp tech vendors that have this debate. And one of my perspectives is, and I'm going to use a sports analogy, I apologize. But like, down market, you can hire a coach with a system. Like, they come in and they run man to man.

[00:13:24] Whereas in a major global enterprise, you need somebody who can build a system around the players, right? So, Everett, you might be a big believer in pay for performance doesn't work and get rid of ratings. I don't know, I'm just making it up. But up market in these big companies, you've got to be ready to say, you know what, that might be what I believe. But this is what this company needs now, right? Like, you don't get hired for a solution at that stage.

[00:13:50] You're hired for the ability to diagnose a situation and deploy a good solution. So, it's just a different, totally different mindset when you approach a company at that scale. It was what I'm hearing from you. And that's what I've sort of thought before as well. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I couldn't agree more, right? So, I guess now, you know, when we think of the phase of the speed, you know, it's changing so fast.

[00:14:19] Basically, the moment you have like any sort of fixed ideas or, you know, things in mind, it's a recipe for failure. That's by default, right? Sometimes what we see, you know, we have a lot of, let's say, options on the table. We start, you know, kind of choosing one and then start going there. And then what we notice, midway, we kind of, you know, evolve into different options by default. Basically, business conditions are changing too.

[00:14:49] So, I guess from there, you know, not only being flexible on, you know, how you are going to implement those, but also having empathy on yourself to start with, right? That flexibility may be required a little bit even more, you know, as you kind of, you know, start implementing those programs.

[00:15:15] As long as you keep the vision in front of you that you want to kind of, you know, what you want to do, right? So, what's the expected outcome of whatever program that you have in place? Maybe you will have different paths, but you will get there is the expectation. So, as you think about evolving that way and you have global programs in multiple countries, what, do you typically start with one or two countries?

[00:15:43] Like, how do you tackle, like, you know, and I'm sure Paul will throw in, it depends because he's consulting. Hey, I don't use those words. Huh? I don't use those words. Yeah. Yeah. How do you tackle kind of both understanding what's going on and if you are rolling things out when you have so many different, you know, different locations and or divisions and or there's so many different ways to cut it? Yeah. Yeah, I believe, I mean, I'll just explain my approach.

[00:16:12] I'm not saying that's the best or the finest, but what worked well for me basically is the following, right? So, earlier I was talking about, you know, building relationships. So, when you kind of, you know, start your job or your kind of, you know, program design or implementation, because it may be like, you may need to make connections with different stakeholders or with different process partners on whatever you are going to implement.

[00:16:41] I would usually start with the ones that I'm thinking having more grace to failure. And the reason for that is, you know, I mean, definitely it's not going to go smooth as, you know, you kind of, you know, lay out on the paper. Okay. So, from there onwards, what you can do the best is, you know, talking to people, having more understanding,

[00:17:07] talking to people, kind of supporting what you are trying to do instead of blocking you, you know, with the first failure. And basically, that's how you kind of reiterate and then reach towards the end goal, wherever you want to go. So, in my case, I mean, obviously, you keep hearing, you know, having global in mind, but local implementations. And I mean, we keep all those things in mind.

[00:17:37] Having said that, when it comes to the reality, you need to test it, right? So, you need to build the trust with your partners, not go blindly. So, the way I kind of, you know, try to go from there is like doing some sort of pilot checking, you know, pilot implementations,

[00:18:00] even in one country or one location, just to have the sense so that, you know, I can inform myself where before I go like big bank. But sometimes, so that's kind of, that's kind of depending on what you are going to do as well, right? If it's a small change, maybe it's like one goal is the best.

[00:18:26] But if it is very, very big change, I think, you know, it's best to start, you know, with baby steps. And then at somewhere, you kind of, you know, goal once in one goal, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think what layers in, and this is just, I know something you and I have even spoken about in the past few years, is around the, is there even, you know, is it a global, can you have a global impact, right?

[00:18:55] Or is it an organization that at its scale has chosen to organize around geographies, right? Where there is a leader for APAC and they've got their decision rights owning APAC, which is different than a business unit centric structure of you're the materials business, you're the, this business or a global structure where everybody sort of operates together. Like the, the organizing discipline of the organization affects a ton of that, right?

[00:19:23] So coming in and wanting to pilot in a country may not be possible if the business is organized around business lines. Testing within a business line may not be possible if the, if the organization's structured around geography. So just understanding that sort of layout of how does the business run and govern itself is going to drive where you start. Cause that's just, you know, the, the, the power, I don't always, I don't mean that as like a heavy handed term,

[00:19:51] but like that's just how businesses make decisions is whatever they've got leaders empowered to own something. And I know that's been, we've had good debates about like, is there an optimal approach to this from a reward standpoint? And I think our common conclusion at the time was, well, it really, I'm not going to say it depends. Damn it, Sean. Like it, it, it's relative to the structure of the business, right? You know, if you crawl, walk, run, your crawl, walk, run, or I guess crawl, baby steps, walk, run,

[00:20:20] I guess now that we added everyone in there to go with the baby theme, um, you still, you still need a direction, right? So directionally, right. To get there, you know, so you are starting to navigate one direction or the other. Whether it's by geography or whether it's by, you know, and it could end up being, you see a lot of pilots that are, to your point, Paul, it's like this division, but also this geography, um, you know, based on the company needs.

[00:20:46] I'm not going to say it depends on the company's needs, but based on the company's need around where they might have things. Um, when you test new technology though, in those cases, do you take the places that probably need the most help? Or do you take places that are in the best shape? Um, because I, I, I personally, I tell people, especially with AI, um, and some of the things to start with the thing, you know, best that works.

[00:21:11] Um, because you know when it's broken, but a lot of people have the knee jerk reaction to take the most broken thing and try to fix it. But how do you know it's actually fixed? So I'm curious how, cause you put this into practice. This is me just prognosticating. So you put it into practice several times. How do you tackle that with new technology? Yeah. So when it, when it comes to the new technology, I mean, my approach is slightly different, uh, in, in, in that, um, uh, case as well.

[00:21:39] Uh, so I tried to find the most complex country, region, or process in this case, and basically start with that. Because if it works for that, uh, I mean, if I make it work for that, the rest is just, um, um, you know, fly or success or however you want to call it. Right. So it's going to be like shining, you know, uh, technology for, for the rest too.

[00:22:06] Um, and basically the way you do that again, you know, um, first you need to convince those stakeholders to perhaps, you know, having some sort of appetite to accept that new technology. Uh, but usually, you know, when, when you know your stakeholders, when you know your, your process partners, you basically know how much leverage you have, uh, to be able to go with that, um, uh, as well.

[00:22:32] So, uh, I guess that approach worked well for me so far. Um, so, um, and then, you know, the fact that it solves that complexity gives me a lot of, um, you know, room to promote, to do campaigns around, you know, how successful it's going to be like company-wide region-wide as well. Yeah. If we could pay people in France and India, clearly we can pay you in, in certain country here.

[00:23:00] You try to take the most complex, but then try to also try to grab something that's more digestible in size and smaller. Cause I mean, you say that, but like, you know, paying in France, like all of France or division in France. So it's like, I mean, it's, it's, it's an, it's an interesting the way you're tackling it. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, definitely. I mean, um, obviously you have, you should also have like a plan B as well. Right.

[00:23:26] So you wouldn't just, um, um, go with the blind eye, but, uh, I, but, um, um, I guess, I guess that, that would be, I mean, that's, that's something that I would prefer to go with, um, with a caution as well. Right.

[00:23:42] So, um, and, and the other pieces, I mean, now when you think of, you know, where we are with, with everything, including the technology, I mean, it won't be the first company ever doing that sort of a thing. Unless it's like, uh, you know, groundbreaking kind of new thing that, you know, we would do.

[00:24:03] Um, so I guess, you know, there's, there's a bunch of other examples, not even, you know, not maybe in, in, in the company itself, but, um, um, externally that we could use some business case and referencing to, um, to be able to basically get buy-in from the people in France or Germany for that matter. Right.

[00:24:22] So, um, uh, there are like really unique, um, uh, European or, you know, uh, Latin America countries that have obviously, you know, tied to certain stuff, um, uh, they, they've been operating. And, um, um, yeah. Yeah. I think some of what your, your sort of, uh, your strategy speaks to is the implementation isn't actually a technical problem for most, for most companies. It's a, it's a change problem, right?

[00:24:51] So making it work is not the hard part. It's convincing the leader that it, you know, cause every leader in a big company says we're different. Every single one I've ever met in my entire career, right? We're unique. We're complex because they are, but not so unique and complex that we can't handle it. Right. So if you start with the easy market, it actually, I have found makes it harder to convince that more complex one that it will work. So like, oh yeah, but you only did it in the easy one.

[00:25:20] Whereas if you say, I'm going to use French payroll or, you know, as my starting point, then everybody else is like, well, if you could figure it out for Francois, like you can figure it out for me. Cause everybody knows that that's hard. So it's almost like, I don't disagree with you, Sean. Sometimes you don't know if the tech is the problem. If you, if you start with the hardest and you hit snags, but the change management story gets easier.

[00:25:44] If you start with a really complicated use case first, cause then you get believers, you get those disciples of, okay, they've solved it for that thing that we've always thought was a little bit hard. Uh, my, my only concern there watching it in practice. And I think it was interesting tying it back to what everyone said earlier, what are people's appetites and are my folks for failure?

[00:26:04] Um, because, you know, if you go to move something and you chose the most complex thing that also, I'm sure, you know, in some fashion has a relationship to, uh, you know, chance of failure. Yeah. Right. Um, and depending who that human is, um, could make it worse. Right.

[00:26:28] And so like, that's why, like, it is such a, I think that's an interesting point you raised, like in both those cases, Paul, who are the business owners and who are the leaders in those places? And what is their appetite for that overall change? Are they looking for a reason to, to tell you it's going to fail? Or are they looking at like, yeah, but we only had one person had an issue and it was France. Like, you know, fine. Um, um, the one I always like to talk about ever and how do you manage merit? Is it very decentralized?

[00:26:57] Like a merit to me in a global organization, when you have a budget number, like walk me through how you get to that budget number and then how you actually roll that out. And like, like that to me is always an interesting one in global organizations. Yeah. Where to start. Right.

[00:27:15] So the, the old merit, um, um, I mean, I've been, I think by now I've seen like many versions, um, even, you know, um, you know, in other companies, but even in the same company, sometimes you see like different versions of, of, um, uh, how you do, um, merit as well. Right.

[00:27:35] So basically, um, it's kind of, so, so now we are in the space of manufacturing, obviously our, most of our population is hourly and we kind of, you know, follow a different sort of a plan, uh, for hourly merit versus, um, versus salary. But if you are talking about the salaried one, um, we kind of go like bottom up, um, in, in, in budget cycle, um, because you ask, you know, how you kind of, you know, define the budgets.

[00:28:03] Um, so basically, um, I don't know if it is really a system driven or not, but we follow the budgets, uh, bottom up, um, um, at the, at the business unit or at the business group level, uh, which ends up with the country as well. And when you think of that, uh, from global perspective, uh, the implementation is slightly different, um, uh, in our case as well. Um, um, and it will go to the technology basically. So for some countries we do have the technology in place for others.

[00:28:33] Unfortunately, uh, it's still manual, um, uh, so far, hopefully in a couple of years, you know, it's going to be fully, uh, automated. Uh, we are in the journey as well. Um, but, um, there is variations of maturity that I would say, uh, which would bring, um, a lot of complexity. On how to marry, how to manage it. Right.

[00:28:57] So I was mentioning for, for instance, um, we are in the midst of, um, integration right now. And obviously, um, you know, population, if you're talking about people leaders who are actually the, the, the people who are nominating merit cycle, right. Um, they have different maturity. They have different understanding. So the management, the administration of it is clearly, uh, going to be differentiated as well.

[00:29:25] Um, so that there is success at the end, but, uh, it takes a lot of efforts at the backend. Um, and when you multiply this with the, um, with the region, with the countries, with the global, uh, perspective, then you end up, uh, accommodating a lot of pre-work and then a lot of time to process and then bunch of other time for the approvals and, and summaries at the end.

[00:29:54] And I see Paul is smiling because, you know, basically it's, it's a pain. I would. Well, and, and part of it is just for those that aren't familiar with your scale and your background, but like, you know, we're talking organizations, 40 to over a hundred thousand people, like are sort of the scale of the organization. So we're not talking like I've only worked in companies with 10,000 people, like as an operator. Right. Um, but let, I mean, I just want to paint that picture too.

[00:30:20] Cause like the number of leaders you have to influence, the number of actual people putting in recommendations is at a scale that most people haven't touched. Right. So just, I wanted to frame it in that mindset. Cause sometimes I don't want to say we get judgmental, but it's like, well, why does it have to take so long? You know, why do you have to do it that way? Well, because there's just, I mean, I had 10,000 employees in my last company while I was in house.

[00:30:46] You have 10,000 like managers to sort of deal with, right? Like the stakeholder volume is so large that you just have to approach certain things with care, with time, you know, where technology isn't, might speed it up a little bit, but it's not going to make it that much better. Cause it's the, it's the 10,000 people that have to do things. That's the problem. Right. Unless we take, unless we don't give managers discretion anymore. Just pull the, pull the humans out. Then it's less of an issue.

[00:31:16] But like. Well, it's an, it's an interesting point. I'd be curious, everyone, like they get performance as a lever, right? Lever. Like it is interesting in a scale that size. I mean, the math just gets bigger, Paul, to your point. Like the amount of time that merit takes when you, it's, it's less about the calculation and a merit matrix by any particular country.

[00:31:38] It's more about all the, you know, manager to the, their manager to the HRBP back down to the manager's manager to the manager, back up to the manager and then back up to the regional HRBP. And then back, like that is the time that it gets eaten up, which is all about discretion. Um, and so it's always interesting to me philosophically to debate, like imagine how much faster and how much time would be saved if you just didn't give them discretion. Um, they have performance.

[00:32:08] I know, you know, and so like, do you need that anymore? Exactly. I mean, I think, you know, in summary, to make the merit recommendations happen in one week or two weeks, you need to work more than six months for sure. Well, that's disheartening, right? But to do it faster, you have to take longer. I mean, and I know what you mean by that, like the amount of preparation. Exactly. Communication. Not every day. Yes, definitely. Yeah. So, but that's the length.

[00:32:37] And then, um, um, I mean, the other pieces like the ratings, obviously, right? So there is this, and, and, and perhaps that's why since the beginning, I'm talking about, you know, you know, more than the stakeholders in some processes, especially on the execution side. Process partners become the supporter or the blocker as well. Right. So take the ratings, for example. Right. So obviously everything has to, uh, has to match. Right.

[00:33:06] So assuming the ratings would be ready by then you would then kick off the merit, but what if ratings are not ready? So you need to have a plan B for that too, because, because most cases it won't be a hundred percent ready. So, um, all those, let's say preparations, obviously part of the project plan. Uh, but as you can kind of anticipate, nothing goes according to the plan.

[00:33:29] And so you need to be flexible enough to, you know, make the plan work according to the project, uh, in this case. Uh, but I think the biggest for, for us, the biggest improvement, I would say, uh, we used to have, uh, a blackout period. Which would kind of basically freeze everything. People love that. Nothing is impacted.

[00:33:57] And to your point, you know, because everyone loves it. Uh, we said, okay, what could we do differently? So that, you know, there's a little bit more, um, uh, time to accommodate for other things that we should do. Um, so we managed to kind of, you know, remove the freeze so business actually can continue as we go through the process, uh, with a caveat that we need to do a little bit back end kind of activities. Um, uh, meanwhile, but, uh, that was well appreciated.

[00:34:27] And that's, that's not across the board. Um, uh, of course, because we don't have the technology globally yet, but, um, it worked well. So, uh, now that's going to be a story for me to tell, for example, for other countries. So that's how I'm going to leverage. Uh, there's no need to freeze. I mean, you can continue as is, that's the process. Here is why. So as long as you explain why it takes that long, um, uh, I think it's going to help too.

[00:34:53] It's, it's interesting to me because when I think about a lot of stuff, um, and in organizations, the way that they scale is they add more process and kind of become stricter.

[00:35:05] And what I hear you saying is the way that you scale to a global program is probably more flexibility, um, and more kind of dynamic movement, which, um, like you, Paul, like, well, one, I've never been an actual operator other than really small companies where you actually know everybody. Because I think you think about, um, where you can actually put a face to the name. There is no chance you put a face to the name to everybody where you're at. Right. I mean, they're number.

[00:35:34] So it's, to me, it is the most interesting part so far of the discussion, Avarin, is that to actually have scale, you actually have to be more flexible and more creative. Whereas I think in a lot of things, as you manufacture more, as you do more, you add more process. Um, so that's really interesting to me. Yeah, definitely.

[00:35:55] I think, um, the secret now is more simplification and more flexibility on the business side as we kind of, you know, as HR, we, we kind of operate or execute whatever process we need to as well. Um, I believe the priorities on the business side is, is changing consistently too. So there's not much time to deal with the HR process per se. Right. Uh, but we need to also do our job to help support.

[00:36:22] Um, so the, the, the, the fine balance that, uh, I see actually what we can do, um, to help them do their job while we kind of do ours as well. Right. So, um, I guess what, when I was talking about the freeze or the blackout, you know, going away is a good message for them. Right.

[00:36:40] So they, they, they shouldn't be, they shouldn't be worried about, you know, having a freeze or the days or, or, or decent that rather they should focus on how they can deliver a value for, for the business. Um, yeah. The, the one thing just to talk about flexibility for a second, I do think what I've observed is that sometimes people feel like more flexibility creates like a better outcome. And I don't know if that's always the case, right?

[00:37:08] Like you want to, some has to be constrained. So like, for example, I have one client right now operates by business line. Um, but in a country, you really don't want to do things two different ways across those two business lines because some of those countries happen to be in places where I have to talk about who's paid similarly to one another and they're doing similar work. Right. So that's where good judgment around where does the process need to be flexible?

[00:37:36] Where do the mechanics need to be flexible, but what needs to be the same? And that actually makes it easier to operate too. Like, where do I need to constrain that flexibility so that it'd be take something off the table and don't create problems later. So I do think there's, I mean, I, and I don't think anyone on this conversation said anything to the opposite, but it's more, I don't want the takeaway to be, be more flexible.

[00:37:59] That makes things go better because there are some really harsh counter examples that show up when you're overly permissive of the philosophy straying too far from like, what's going to work when two employees, you know, meet at a cocktail hour. Right. Right. Or, or things like that. So I just, there's a bit, an ounce of caution I want to inject in that. And I, you're nodding. I think you agree. It's more knowing when do you accommodate change? When do you plan for being agile?

[00:38:28] And the business changing too, Paul. Exactly. Like there's this change happening all the time. And so I took the flexibility is not being married to what you thought or, you know, your hypothesis at the time, because there's so many variables, you know, exponentially more when you keep adding 20, 30 countries that, you know, you can't stick to your original thesis because to your point, I think you said it earlier, Evan, you're probably going to be wrong from your original thesis.

[00:38:56] You know, hopefully you're close, but you have to make edits. Yeah. I mean, definitely. I think you need to define, you know, what, what does flexibility mean in each situation? Because it won't be the same even, you know, execution by execution either. And thanks for calling that out really. Because at this time, everything is probably, we should assume everything is known by everyone.

[00:39:22] So, you know, the fairness, the consistency, I mean, we need to go from there and not so much make it around, you know, yes, flexibility, 100%, go from there. But instead, keeping in mind to align with what's happening in the business context too, right? Because sometimes we influence, let's say, on our processes, but sometimes we get influenced because things are changing on the business side too.

[00:39:51] So it's not all in sort of flexibility, but rather, you know, you need to keep those sort of, you know, dynamics in place. And that's a great example, basically, you know, after, let's say, acquisition, what we kind of, you know, try to pay more attention is the, you know, not only the locations, the sites and the countries and whatnot,

[00:40:17] but the messaging around what we are trying to do so that it reflects the same employee experience to both legacy organizations, right? Because the terminology is maybe different. I mean, philosophy is maybe different. And you just need to make sure you kind of think through on the experience that they would kind of feel and then go from there too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:45] We often, I make a big deal out of two words that are actually synonyms, but I use them very differently, right? Flexibility is like the willingness to bend. That's the way I think of it, right? Like, and that's actually not a great thing in most circumstances, but agility is the willingness to change, right? So the desire to have a different plan when the plan isn't working anymore. That's not flexibility in my word. And again, I'm mincing terminology, but, you know, it's just like, do you let people go outside of band?

[00:41:13] In a salary range because you don't feel like the bands are right? Or do you just change the salary bands, right? That's flexibility versus agility. To me, it's kind of, you know, those of us that are less educated, Paul, I would say, well, one of those is your willingness to make change. And the other is your ability to make change. And so, you know, that's how I would read that.

[00:41:32] So I would agree with you that those are two different things, but similar because what I hear Everett saying is, you know, we want to be ready that we can, but also we are willing to make change where change is needed, not just for the sake of change and letting them run rampant. But there's a process, but we're willing to change it. Yeah. Is there any other one thing, Everett, that we missed or anything when you, you know, that comes to mind when you're managing a program at scale that we might have missed?

[00:42:00] Because, you know, there's no way we talked in 40 minutes about managing a program. No, I think, I guess the only other piece would be, you know, keeping close connection with what's happening on the ground, I would say. So some may call it like the business acumen aspect of it. So, yes, we are working in total rewards. Yes, we are working in HR.

[00:42:25] But I guess the experience that the people in France, we get a lot of friends, but could be Brazil too, right? So I think the experience and the experience that the programs kind of, you know, reflecting to the recipients, I think that's critical too.

[00:42:46] And the way you can basically get, you know, the feedback is to be closer to the HR, to the business or people leaders in there to understand, you know, if it is landing well.

[00:43:02] So sometimes it's more important, you know, to understand what would land, what would not, so that you can actually reiterate your plan design or communication plan for that matter. I guess maybe the last piece would be, since we are talking about global programs. It goes without saying every country is different.

[00:43:31] Cultures are totally different. Maybe there's no perfect way of messaging what you are trying to do. But the closer, the more you are kind of, you know, embedding what you hear from the countries and, you know, hear them, the better for you to kind of, you know, successfully execute those plans and programs.

[00:43:59] So that would be my kind of, you know, last call out for that piece. With all that in mind and your unique perspective across these large programs, if you could automagically solve one thing in all of HR, what would you solve? Wow. That's a big one.

[00:44:18] I would like to solve the manual things that HR is doing, but more so, you know, providing like the storyteller skill to each and every joiner to HR. What I mean with that is, I mean, now technology is like far, far away, you know, compared to whatever.

[00:44:44] But basically, I've seen we don't really know how to tell the stories that we, even if we had the data, if you don't, then it's probably itself. But even when we had the data, we basically not doing a good job to tell the story behind the data. So, you know, that would be something that I would like to solve for HR.

[00:45:09] Like when you join a company, when you join HR teams, automatically you have this skill that you actually start telling the story. I like how you automagically did two things, by the way. So I don't like, and it's just subtly, subtly. So I guess we gave you the magic wand. You took two waves. I like that. The manual thing is good. Yeah. When you had the opportunity, just, you know. You were flexible. You were flexible. You wished for more wishes.

[00:45:37] Like you broke the genie rule. But that's all right. That's true. Well, you got away with it. You got away. Thanks so much for those listening. Everett is great. If you catch him at the World at Work stuff, he is a wealth of knowledge. Thank you. So reach out and give him a chat. He's done this and run amazingly well programs globally. Absolutely. It's mind-blowing to me. Some of the size of the program. Every time we talk about the size of the programs you manage, it's mind-blowing to me.

[00:46:06] So I really appreciate you coming on and sharing some of your knowledge on here. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks. Thanks a lot, Sean. Thanks a lot, Paul. I think it was a very much rewarding chat for me. And I appreciate the time from both of you as well. And tell your wife thanks for holding out at least one more hour. Didn't have to interrupt us. Pass that on. And congrats. We got lucky. Yeah. And congrats. It is the greatest. Kids are the greatest thing ever.

[00:46:35] So super, super stoked for you guys. And looking forward to hearing in a month or so from you how things are going. Thank you. Thank you. Congratulations. Yeah. Thanks, Evan.