#090 - Human Performance as a Competitive Advantage (with Jennifer Posa)

[00:00:04] There's an executive role that most companies are missing and that many leaders aren't even aware exists. It's one that can unlock higher levels of performance across the entire organization and set companies up with a massive competitive advantage in the coming years. But not every company is ready for this role because it requires a significant shift in mindset about how businesses operate and what it takes for people to sustainably perform at high levels.

[00:00:33] This role is called the Chief Wellbeing Officer and today's guest, well she's held one of the most unique CWO roles on the planet. Dr. Jennifer Posa is an organizational psychologist and global thought leader in workforce well-being. She was the first Chief Wellbeing Officer for the CIA where she helped design and implement the intelligence community's first congressionally mandated workforce well-being program.

[00:00:58] Jennifer has also held executive leadership roles at the Mayo Clinic and Johnson & Johnson. So welcome to The Working Well Podcast, the show that explores the critical intersection of leadership, business strategy, sustainable human performance and how those areas are defining the future of work. I'm your host, Tim Boras. Let's dive in. Jennifer, welcome to The Working Well Podcast.

[00:01:27] I'm so glad to have you. This has been a long time coming and it's something I've looked forward to for the last nine, ten months, something like that. And so welcome. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. And so you've had an incredible career across some of the most influential organizations in the world. Mayo Clinic, Johnson & Johnson, CIA.

[00:01:51] And you're also the first Chief Wellbeing Officer at the CIA, which is a title that immediately makes people curious. But even more curious than that, I have to ask the question that everyone's thinking, what was it like to work at the CIA? Well, Tim, I would imagine you haven't signed an NDA. We're not under, you know, any kind of secrecy agreement. No, I'm joking.

[00:02:18] I can tell you it was incredibly exciting and the biggest honor of a lifetime for me. But obviously, you know, much of that information and what we do on a daily basis is something that I have to keep within my own mind.

[00:02:36] But I will tell you that it was exciting and a true honor because from my perspective, the work that I did at the agency was a commitment to, you know, safeguarding my country and ensuring that the officers had what they needed to achieve our mission.

[00:02:58] And there's really been no other job that has enabled me to have such extraordinary impact on individuals that are so deserving of that. Well said. And I think there's this mystique around the CIA and people think, oh, it must be this totally unique place. But when it comes down to it, it's an organization with people and leadership and organizational structure.

[00:03:25] And so all of these things that apply to so many other organizations still apply to the CIA. And that brings me to one of the key messages and thoughts that came up when we chatted last time was that you had said human performance is becoming a competitive advantage for organizations. Why do you think that's happening now?

[00:03:48] I think it's happening because there's an incredible amount of disruption in the field, obviously, with what I'll call the AI evolution and all of the changes in terms of work design and workplaces and how we do our work. So with that, you know, human performance and our ability to perform in uncertainty and in changing environment. I mean, you and I, Tim, are going to perform differently if we're ready to perform with that much uncertainty.

[00:04:17] If you're not ready and you're not prepared to do that or you're not comfortable or you don't have those skills, it's going to be very difficult to perform at peak levels. So from my perspective, ensuring that workforces can leverage human performance, science and principles within their work design, within their training, enables them to have a competitive advantage.

[00:04:40] And I've certainly seen that firsthand in the last 30 years that I've been working in the field and supporting organizations who, you know, are some of the highest performing in the world. And what change and uncertainty, they've been there forever. It seems to be accelerating faster now.

[00:05:02] But outside of that, what are some of the other reasons you think that people are starting or organizations are starting to realize that performance and well-being are pretty inseparable? So I really think it's because people are at the center of our workplaces. I mean, you just said it earlier that every organization has individuals that work within them.

[00:05:25] And those individuals are, you know, performing their work, being as productive as possible with the means that they have.

[00:05:35] And from a well-being perspective, if individuals are not physically strong, mentally strong, emotionally equipped to handle their work, either their roles or their relationship management within the workplace, they're not going to be able to perform at their peak levels.

[00:05:57] So, again, I think that we have to look at individuals and the dynamics of individuals working as teams to really optimize what we do within the workplace. And if we're not doing that, we aren't able to perform at peak levels because we miss critical opportunities.

[00:06:20] I think in the past, a lot of folks have seen, I'm going to call it wellness as something that is only related to maybe the elimination or, you know, not having disease and being sick.

[00:06:39] So we saw this, you know, we see this in health clinics and maybe health services of the organizations where you say, you know, I want to make sure that, you know, Tim, if he has a certain illness, he's diagnosed appropriately, he's treated appropriately.

[00:06:58] So when we look at health as only a risk to be managed and not human performance as an opportunity to drive business performance, we actually limit our ability to leverage human capacity. And so from my perspective, businesses are absolutely realizing this. And in many capacities, COVID was a silver lining, right?

[00:07:27] Because individuals might not have been ill, they didn't have COVID, but they couldn't actually perform work because they weren't in the workplace or engaging with their colleagues easily, et cetera, et cetera. So what we saw was that despite them being healthy, they were removed from their ability to work well. That's almost an extreme.

[00:07:54] But the silver lining of COVID was that C-suites were paying attention to the health and well-being of the workplace, right? And we also know that from the research that during that time, organizations were very much actively caring for and seeking ways to support the overall well-being of their employees, right?

[00:08:18] Because they needed to make sure that they kept their employees well, even though they might not have been in their traditional workplace settings. And when you look at the data, employees felt very much cared for during that time because the C-suite was paying attention to the health and well-being of employees. It doesn't mean that they're not paying attention now because I do think many organizations are.

[00:08:43] But I do think it shifted again now that we've, you know, as the years have passed since not being, if you will, in the pandemic. I think there's been more skepticism, and you see it in the data from employee surveys, that employees are questioning whether or not their C-suite and their senior leaders are caring about their health and well-being. And so we're seeing that dip in the data.

[00:09:08] And I do think that answers your question spot on to say that's why there is a competitive advantage. Because you are hearing loud and clear from employees that they are feeling as though there's an opportunity to further support their health and well-being in the workplace. Does that answer your question? Absolutely. And yeah, I love it. Especially how you said about COVID being that catalyst.

[00:09:33] And a couple things come up for me is one is that the difference between, you said, health and well-being. And I often put wellness into that mix as well and saying companies have had wellness programs for lots of years. From my perspective, I saw COVID being really a wake-up call to say, hey, the checkboxes we've been doing on wellness aren't cutting it.

[00:10:02] There's something missing. And, you know, with clients, when I talk to them, I always say wellness are the tactics. And if those tactics aren't producing well-being as the outcome, the feeling generated by the wellness tactics, then there's something disconnecting in the middle. And for me, COVID was a big shining a spotlight on that disconnect.

[00:10:29] Because companies for years would say, oh, yeah, we have a wellness program. We have a great wellness program. We do this, this, and this. We upped our benefits. We upped our mental health coverage. And I'm like, so why are people still stressed and burnt out? Why is engagement low? What's missing? So for me, I guess I often talk about programs versus strategy.

[00:10:53] And I think to your point, I think when we look at well-being, wellness as, you know, perks or a program here or a program there, we're not looking at it holistically and as an organization and the systems that create our organizations. So, you know, I'm an organizational psychologist, so I really study the behaviors in workplaces and how we can achieve peak performance through those behaviors.

[00:11:22] And if you do pay attention to behaviors, yes, you can have very strong evidence-based programs and services that are offered. And I think that's actually incredibly important. I kind of categorize that under expertise. So we don't want in any way, shape, or form anyone to feel as though they shouldn't be either as an employer purchasing or ensuring that they're providing evidence-based services, support, resources, et cetera.

[00:11:50] But what we want to look at is we want to look at the organization as a whole and the systems that are driving behavior. So a program might drive behavior. For example, if you have a program that's supporting strong choices on child care or elder care, for example, that program might actually change your behavior, Tim.

[00:12:16] A, because you know you have access to it and you're not going to make a decision on your child care or your elder care without accessing that maybe guidance that is being offered to you. And maybe there's a discount associated with that and you're going to leverage it. That's wonderful.

[00:12:30] But what systems I'm speaking about that could drive your behavior even further are whether or not the organization gives you maybe time within your workday to identify services that are available, or maybe within your workday giving you the opportunity to take leave or manage some of that engagement with the providers.

[00:12:56] For example, having time during your day to actually make a few phone calls. Maybe it's a special needs child that you're managing your education and you've got to talk with a counselor and that counselor is only available during the day. If the systems, the culture within a workplace doesn't allow you the time to do that, then you become stressed because even though you have an evidence-based service available,

[00:13:20] you don't have time within your workday to actually reach out to that vendor, to that provider, and actually coordinate the care. And then all of a sudden you're not getting the care at the right time for your child with special needs. So I think it's more around not only scheduling, which is what I'm using the example of, but processes, systems, policies that are happening, that are created through the organization, sometimes intentionally,

[00:13:50] sometimes just by nature of growing as an organization, that end up defining the behaviors we take as individuals. Some of those behaviors can actually support our well-being and others can actually detract from it. So the example of not having time during your workday to coordinate with a care team for a family member that needs needs, that has needs,

[00:14:14] is very stressful and can actually really diminish an individual's well-being and their focus on work and their performance. Because their stress level increases, their focus decreases on work, and then it becomes a very difficult thing to manage for that employee, and then potentially then aggravates the relationship between the leader and the employee, because the leader thinks the employee doesn't care about the job,

[00:14:41] but meanwhile the employee is actually just super concerned and stressed and can't find a way to manage this conflict in time. And so if there isn't strong relationships being built between that leader and that employee, it's difficult to resolve that issue and then ensure that the employee gets the space they need to manage life along with work. I call that effective work-life integration.

[00:15:04] You know, that's a really good example, only one, that I've seen that often happens when the systems or processes within the organization truly impact whether an employee can manage work and life effectively together. And I guess that goes back to the organizational strategy that you mentioned and where the chief well-being officer role would come in,

[00:15:32] because in a lot of companies, lots of companies are missing that strategy, the bigger organizational strategy. They have all the piecemeal programs, but there's nothing tying them together, or the organizational strategy isn't curating which programs are offered where. And so talk to me about the chief well-being officer role. Like, what actually is that? I'm familiar with it.

[00:16:02] I'll kind of, and I'll kind of like do exactly what you just asked me, which is how do you circle back to resolving that issue that I might have just described, which I think is pretty typical in, you know, organizations that have a fast tempo and are really trying to do a lot for the employees but are stuck in this issue of, well, we're giving so many benefits and services. Why aren't the employees taking advantage of them? Why are they still stressed? Why are they saying we're not caring?

[00:16:32] So as a chief well-being officer, you know, I think that the role is incredibly important and impactful because it does look at it as an organizational strategy and an organizational initiative that can really pinpoint the pain points at the employee level and the leader level.

[00:16:56] So the responsibility of a CWO, a chief well-being officer, in my opinion, is to really support the resilience, the readiness, and the well-being of your workforce. And that individual is a senior executive that is held accountable by the leaders of the organization as well as the employees of the organization to do that job. So what is the job?

[00:17:23] The job is really to understand what the needs are of the workforce and the leaders to make sure that we understand what is compromising your well-being. So because we want to understand that question and what the issues are, because if you do have high levels of well-being, there's really no reason why you can't perform at peak levels, right?

[00:17:51] So, and that really does rely, Tim, on an assumption. So if you're a leader that doesn't believe someone needs to be well and healthy to perform at their highest levels, you're not going to want to achieve well-being officer. It's not going to be something you're interested in. And trust me, there are some leaders out there that feel that way. I work with the leaders that intuitively understand that when people are well and they feel good about themselves, their lives,

[00:18:21] and I can talk a little bit about the definition of well-being, they will perform at higher levels. You are set up for success when that is the case. There's research to support it. And we know that when people are better, they do better, right? So if I'm a CWO for a director, a president that obviously has that assumption and has made this a strategic priority for the organization,

[00:18:51] and this is what organizations do when they hire and have a chief well-being officer, the process is quite systematic. That CWO is responsible for assessing the needs of the organization. And then identifying priorities. In my previous role, we had four different priorities that I'm happy to share.

[00:19:17] One was an example of what I just talked about, which was work-life effectiveness. It doesn't mean the same scenario was happening, but I gave you an example of what a scenario might look like. So work-life effectiveness is something that many individuals working within this climate globally are challenged with. How do you manage your work alongside with your life priorities? There's just not enough time in the day, oftentimes, for high performers to do that.

[00:19:46] So you actually have to really learn and apply skills to effectively do that. That is one area or a priority that an organization might have. Another organization might have a priority of workplace flexibility. Flexibility has been a big topic ever since COVID. It continues to be. As you know, depending on the organization, some are bringing folks back to the workplace for five days a week.

[00:20:14] Others are doing four and continue with hybrid. Some organizations are saying, we don't need to be in person. We learned that with COVID. There's such variability. But there's also a lot of personal need when it comes to flexibility, depending on the stage of your life and the needs that you have. That is what is called a pain point between meeting individual employee needs as well as the organizations. And you can imagine the kinds of discussions that are happening around that to say,

[00:20:41] what is our responsibility as an employer or what is your responsibility as an employee for us to come and make sure that this is meeting both parties' needs? It's tough. It's a really tough conversation. So that's another example of a priority. Another third example of a priority would be health and well-being support. And I will tell you that this is quite traditional, like I mentioned before, with care.

[00:21:07] So it's very important and obviously a pretty standard benefit when an employee has benefits from an organization that they're provided, you know, health care services and benefits that will meet them and their family's needs. So that is a sense of security for employees and absolutely a drive to go work for an employer, right, if they have strong benefits. And so that's an area that making sure that there's evidence-based practices,

[00:21:36] practices that are included within those offerings, even access and quality of care, specifically in the behavioral health arena, is continuing to grow and improve now that, you know, we've got a lot more science and, quite frankly, data. I think that will continue to grow. But that's another area of priority. So back to the CWO role.

[00:21:59] If those were my three priorities as a CWO, I would then be identifying after priorities, what are the pain points within those areas? So I gave you the example earlier of maybe someone not having the space within their day to be able to manage personal priorities. That could be identified as a pain point. But we want to pull that onion back further to say,

[00:22:27] is that only for employees that work in the supply chain? Is that only for employees that are working out in the field or researchers? So you want to actually look at the segments of your population to identify what work-life effectiveness challenges look like for each area of the population. Then I would say you would want to look at lifespan, too,

[00:22:53] because young employees that maybe are single have very different needs than employees that might be in their 40s who are, you know, managing child care activities and maybe even heading into elder care years versus employees in their 50s who are likely still managing children and managing elder care. So if you think about our, you know, the HR end-to-end lifespan

[00:23:21] and how often HR professionals look at this, we want to kind of overlay that as well. So when we're identifying the priorities and the needs, it becomes very clear to a CWO what are the like low-hanging fruit and what are the key priorities that are interfering with our ability to perform at peak levels?

[00:23:45] So one thing I want to be very clear on is the job is around pain points for well-being, resilience, and readiness. But the goal is exactly the same goal as every other C-suite member has, which is we are in this organization to drive performance of the organization. So there has to be a connection and the data crosswalk is incredibly important.

[00:24:11] So that CWO is responsible for defining the needs, identifying the priorities, ensuring evidence-based services are in place, and then tying that together with, if you will, actions and interventions maybe to say we need to tweak or change this. In some cases, it's changing a policy because unbeknownst to the leadership team,

[00:24:38] there was a policy identified that was actually restricting the employees to make the choice that would enable them to be well and perform at higher levels. In other cases, it might be a process or a technology platform that's really causing inefficiencies and stress on teams. And then it might be, hey, CIO, you know, chief information officer, can we talk about this?

[00:25:04] Because this technology platform seems to be really exacerbating issues from a well-being perspective and preventing us to perform. So as I'm hoping you're hearing, Tim, from my explanation, the well-being, the chief well-being officer isn't the one that's responsible for solving every problem. That's done in partnership with other C-suite leaders and leaders throughout the organization.

[00:25:34] What the responsibility of the CWO is, is to say, I will identify the pain points and the needs and then enable us to identify solutions together. And that could be changes in policies. It could be processes. It could be new benefits or services or removal of benefits and services that aren't helping. It also could be something around rewards and recognition.

[00:25:58] So we might actually be rewarding behavior that we don't realize we're rewarding, right? In some types of teams or even processes that we have. So the goal is really, again, to help the organization achieve peak performance through well-being. And well-being touches every aspect of our lives.

[00:26:25] And recognizing that from an organizational perspective is what the CWO does. So they're not a one-on-one therapist. They're looking at the organization and saying, how are we, as an organization, impacting Tim as an employee and his performance levels? And we're doing that at the population level. Does that help? Yeah, absolutely.

[00:26:52] And I'm very passionate about the CWO role. And so convincing me is not the issue. It's other leaders out there that are not familiar with this role. And I often hear from HR, well, that's what we do. And so where do you see the, you know, HR says, well, we deal with people. We're the human capital aspect of the organization.

[00:27:21] So where do you think the CWO role fits in with traditional HR roles? Yeah. So I will tell you that not every organization is ready for a CWO. And you might be surprised that I say that because I am a CWO, right? And everyone should have one. I don't think that's true.

[00:27:42] I don't think it's true because, again, I said before, if you do not have leadership support and an assumption, a leadership assumption that well-being is important for performance, because putting a CWO in that organization isn't going to help.

[00:28:01] It's actually going to frustrate leaders that do understand the connection, and the employees are going to get incredibly frustrated because that CWO won't have the partnership that is absolutely essential to be successful in the role. I have been lucky and wouldn't have taken on the roles that I've had if I didn't validate that assumption before walking in. So first, that being said.

[00:28:30] Secondly, is the chief well-being officer potentially duplicating roles? It depends on the organization. So some CHROs, I'll say if the CHRO is the title of the HR leader in the organization, is doing a lot of what I'm describing.

[00:28:50] If they are actively addressing and they have the expertise within their team to drive the organizational change that I'm suggesting,

[00:29:04] what I have found is that this particular area requires a level of expertise and, quite frankly, a commitment across the C-suite, not just in through human resources. And I do think I have seen it more effective in my own situation when it is a partner to the CHRO.

[00:29:33] It doesn't mean that there's a competition on who's better or not, but what I have experienced is incredible partnership with what I would say my partner who was in a, what we would call in the private sector, a traditional CHRO role.

[00:29:50] And the power of that collaboration and having two individuals focused on the people in the organization for very different reasons ended up being a multiplier effect. So Tim, my perspective is you can't afford to not have a chief well-being officer. So if you don't have a chief well-being officer and you want to focus on this area, it's very difficult to do that.

[00:30:19] So A, if you're interested, you should have one. That's, you know, first step and you have the leadership support. But if you want to really have the greatest impact, it's placing that role as a partner to the CHRO, the chief operating officer, the chief financial officer, the chief digital officer, right? All the CTO. So it's actually being in partnership. Why do I say that?

[00:30:48] I say that because what I have learned in my experience is the drivers of health and well-being are oftentimes outside of health and well-being. They're not only health and well-being. So if the drivers are outside of, for example, your flexibility policy or maybe the digital platform that you're using, or let's use AI as an example.

[00:31:18] If AI and whatever it is that the organization is creating in terms of that AI strategy, HR might be aware of it, but HR doesn't own it. So if there's a problem and the CWA identifies that that's the pain point in a priority, that CWA was going up, having to go up to the CHRO and say, hi, you know, I'm finding a lot of risk in this area.

[00:31:44] And I seem to be realizing that, you know, this is coming at every end. And, you know, would you mind making sure that we can have a conversation with the CTO over here and then we can be part of that digital AI strategy execution? I mean, it's just more steps to partnership. And that to me is very inefficient. And I think I've been there in the past before.

[00:32:08] And the difference when you put that CWO at that same level is it does a couple things.

[00:32:17] It creates efficiencies across the partnering within the C-suite and ensures that what I call a bias for action, that need to resolve and mitigate that internal threat and risk of well-being away from performance and success happens more quickly.

[00:32:39] I think the well-being strategy ends up being much more effective because it's the focus of the CWO and those leaders can hold the CWO accountable just like the employees can to say, you are being held accountable to tell me as a CTO what my greatest risk is. So I'm immediately held accountable by that business leader as well as the employees.

[00:33:07] And then the other part is, and this is very, very important, where you place the CWO in the organization directly impacts whether or not your employees believe that this is truly a priority of yours. If I'm your CWO and you stick me within an organization that's under four layers of management, do you think that your employees are going to believe that this is a priority? No.

[00:33:34] So it's not only from an operational effectiveness perspective, it's also for the mere reason why you're doing this in the first place. Yeah. Is that you are truly trying to build the strongest relationship that you can have with your employees that are spending most times 40 hours a week or longer with you to achieve your mission.

[00:34:01] So as a leader, that speaks volumes for someone who's in charge of them and their family's well-being while you're in their care at the level of priority that you want that to be. So there's those two pieces that I think are critical that should really be thought about when you're thinking about placing a CWO within your organization.

[00:34:29] And if you're not ready to place that person at the C-suite level, then I hope that as a leader, you are absolutely ready to make sure that your CHRO understands the level of importance within their own strategy that human performance and well-being needs to have. It shouldn't be a CWO.

[00:34:56] It shouldn't be a CWO. It shouldn't be a CWO. It shouldn't be a CWO. It shouldn't be a CWO, which is traditionally what we have had in many organizations in the past. Absolutely agree. The other thing that comes up when you say that is one of my quick and easy ways to judge whether the mindset of an organization is there is to look at the titles across the leadership team.

[00:35:20] And you'll often see CEO, COO, CFO, CTO, VP of HR. And that speaks volumes of where people, the mindset of people live in the organization. And this is where I say that there are CHROs out there that are prioritizing well-being. Yes. It's a pillar of their strategy. They're doing exceptional things.

[00:35:48] And that, I just, I think the breadth and depth of HR has really expanded exponentially over the last 10 years. So, I mean, when we think about that position and the importance, hands down, that not only should an organization be having a CHRO and not a VP of HR, they should be alongside that CHRO, having a chief well-being officer.

[00:36:13] And both of those two leaders should be held accountable to one another to be working together. Because I don't know about you, Tim, but when you're in a really big job and the breadth and depth of that job is massive, it's really nice to have a partner that can support you along the way. And that's the beautiful partnership that I'm talking about that I've had the privilege of having. And that makes a lot of sense. And it's incredibly effective.

[00:36:42] Because sometimes employees want to go up through HR for whatever it is that they might need that that function is providing. But there are many employees that really feel as though they need a different avenue to either voice a concern or enhance their work experience in a way that makes sense.

[00:37:10] Like, I don't think most employees would go to HR if there was a technical issue. But if they have a CWO that's saying, hey, how is your well-being being impacted by the workplace?

[00:37:23] Talk to me a little bit about your mental well-being and, you know, and by that I mean like your ability to, you know, focus at work and not get distracted and, you know, making sure that your mental acuity and your agility is there to perform the jobs that we're asking you to perform.

[00:37:42] When you start having those conversations with employees, they start telling you about, you know, I'm in open space in my office and I just, I have to put headphones on every single day or I can't find a focus room because we redesigned the offices 10 years ago. And that was supposed to drive collaboration and innovation. But all it's done is made me distracted all day long. So when I have to come into the office, I run to a focus room and then they're all booked up and I can't find them.

[00:38:09] Well, that there's so many things that we uncover in these conversations. If I think about physical ability, sometimes it's, you know, I need to be able to find healthy food. And I'm not always sure that the cafeteria has what I'm looking for and interested in. Well, then you have an opportunity to take a look at, you know, high performance nutrition in your food service contracts.

[00:38:35] You know, so there's so many things that can be done in this area. And the value of having those conversations with employees. Again, I have been a very strong partner to a very strong, what I would call CHRO, that has hands down appreciated the insights.

[00:38:59] And we've been able to drive strategies together so that we could implement what mattered most to employees. And I think that's what organizations try to do each day. So if I were on a leadership team and I wasn't the CHRO, but I was maybe the COO or the CFO,

[00:39:23] I think I would be saying if I didn't have a partner at that C-suite that was focused on this, I'd say, who should that be? What are we ready for? And when can we get that person in? Because I will tell you that the organizations that aren't focused on the well-being, either through the CHRO or at the CWO level, they are missing opportunities to perform at their highest levels.

[00:39:52] Because their employees have barriers and challenges in the way that is preventing them from performing at those levels due to an impact on their own well-being or their family's well-being in today's environment. I agree.

[00:40:07] One of the conversations I've had a lot recently and been hearing a lot of, you see it a lot through the HR community is the split that's happening in HR between the strategic side of HR and the more administrative side of HR. And I think it makes perfect sense at the C-suite to have that CWO and the CHRO or CPO or whatever acronym you use.

[00:40:35] But one is focused more on, not necessarily pure administration, but the administration of the people programs, whereas the CWO is focused on the strategy and the integration and operationalizing cross-function well-being of people. And I think it's very tough for organizations as HR has expanded to have control over all of that.

[00:41:03] And it's like a bit of a skill in mindset. And again, if the CHRO expands exponentially into the strategic side, Tim, then it needs to prioritize human performance in that evolution, right? And I mean, that might be the way that some organizations say, I want to do this.

[00:41:30] I personally, having had a successful tenure as a CWO for a three-year period and having the ability to be the sole accountable leader of this, I know it benefited the CHRO and every other C-suite leader, right? So I know the power in the position.

[00:41:57] I just, I feel that if we can only get a CHRO to reprioritize in this way, then I think, again, I'm willing to support any organization that wants to do that. Because at the end of the day, the most important thing here is that organizations do it, that they prioritize human performance to drive peak performance, right?

[00:42:21] I just think in a weird way, I don't know if weird is the right word, but in a way, hiring a CWO is the easy button, right, Tim? It's the easier button. Yeah. Because you're not having to add one more very, very big, I mean, we've talked about it before, well-beings like boiling an ocean.

[00:42:41] To add a boiling in the ocean area to already a full CHRO's plate, that's a lot to ask of somebody who's already doing a tremendous amount of work. I think the other point that I would make too, and we talked a little bit about disruption with AI, you know, AI is going to change our workforces, our work design, and the responsibilities and how we work.

[00:43:02] If we're going to be redesigning anyway, right, why would we not be redesigning, prioritizing human performance in the process? And there is no better time to be doing this. So to your point, I would encourage organizations to really take a step back as they're redesigning to accommodate AI,

[00:43:24] and make sure that the person in the organization, i.e. the human performance of the person, is prioritized as they redesign for AI. So in many senses, I feel like this is the perfect time for organizations to consider whether they need a CWO, whether they want to redesign the CHRO position to better prioritize this.

[00:43:52] And again, looking at it from an organizational strategic perspective, like you mentioned, administrative things, they can be done through AI. So maybe, maybe, and I don't know, I'm not an AI expert, but maybe AI is so amazing in the HR space that our CHROs have more time to prioritize this area.

[00:44:14] And then they bring an expert, like maybe I'm one of those experts that they bring in to say, okay, this is how we redefine strategic relationships and human performance in HR. Because I do think our CHRO colleagues are working incredibly hard, and they're doing everything they can to support employees. I just think that to your point, that breadth and depth is massive, and now there's massive change because of AI.

[00:44:43] So my ask is, please consider this competitive advantage that you have in front of you to prioritize human performance, which IE is well-being. Yeah. Into that strategy and that redesigning of the workplace, workspace, and jobs. Yeah, I like how you said how human performance is well-being.

[00:45:10] And there's, though speaking of mindset, there's a mindset of a lot of leaders that human performance means like strictly output. And from my perspective, I always talk about sustainable high performance. We can drive people hard for a month, a quarter, even a year. But what's the follow-up of that? How do we create sustainable high performance?

[00:45:38] You know, I've often made the joke that it's like asking Usain Bolt to run his 100-meter pace for a marathon. And that's what a lot of companies and leaders are expecting is like, well, he's performing at this high level, or she's performing at this high level. So why can't we just sustain that? It's like, it's not quite how that works.

[00:46:01] And I think the more, and we're seeing this with AI right now, is in certain roles, particularly, and I have a lot of executive coaching clients in big tech companies. And there's, it is optimizing performance, allowing them to put out more workload. But what they're finding is that people are burning out faster because the expectation is that, oh, well, now you have AI, so you can do triple the amount of work. Right. Yeah.

[00:46:30] Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I mean, that speaks a lot to, again, it's a human performance principle that you're very familiar with, you know, impactful recovery. So how are we designing our jobs? How are we designing our workplaces? Is recovery, you know, included within that? How do we teach people how to recover? How do we ensure the design of the job allows for recovery?

[00:46:53] I mean, you know, working in some of the highest demanding environments around the globe, it's absolutely essential. And I will tell you as a high performer myself, recovery is probably the one area that I continue have to coach myself on. I mean, because the challenge with high performers is we don't want to stop. It's so important. Like, it's just so important what we're doing.

[00:47:18] You know, if we could just do that one more thing today, we're going to get ahead. We're going to crack the code. We're going to, like, achieve the mission earlier than what we said. I mean, you know, it's a high performing mindset that we have to be thinking in.

[00:47:36] It's interesting. I had someone say to me, you know, a CWO, like, your job is to, like, save us from ourselves. That was literally the quote she said. And I said, you know, you're right. But as a high performer myself, I have to save myself sometimes, too. And sometimes I make mistakes. Sometimes I realize, oh, my gosh, I'm totally burnt out by Friday. I shouldn't feel this way.

[00:48:02] It's, you know, but why am I feeling this way this week, whereas last week I had a lot of energy by Friday? That's because I didn't manage my recovery. I didn't include my impactful recovery throughout my week. So we are still human beings. We still make mistakes. We still, again, as a high performers, we still want to perform at those highest, highest levels.

[00:48:25] We have to learn the skills and be very disciplined in order to actually perform at our highest levels and, to your point, be able to sustain. So that is the discipline that I believe is the art of creating a high performance workplace.

[00:48:47] And I think the art is something that does require a lot of systematic change, oftentimes, and a methodology to how we design our workplaces and awareness of habits and practices and processes that can limit our abilities.

[00:49:15] So, and that's the awareness piece where I always feel like, as a CWO and a fractional CWO now, when I raise awareness in leaders' minds to these principles, they're not experts in these principles, nor should they be. But all you need to do, but all you need to do is give a leader actionable data and insights, and high-performing leaders want to solve for it.

[00:49:41] So it's an immediate impact on how effective we can become. You know, in my roles, it usually takes like three months before you see some shifts and movements in culture, and that depends on the size of the organization. But, you know, Tim, it's incredible when you start actually collecting the data and then providing that actionable data to leaders, because they just want to do better, because they're high-performing themselves.

[00:50:11] So it's almost like you're giving everybody the information they need to perform at higher levels, and then it just becomes this momentum and this ability for us to say, wait a minute, we have the ability to really do really hard things and overcome challenge in different ways than I ever imagined before. I had no idea that our team had the ability to do this, right?

[00:50:35] So it's pretty cool when it happens, but I think it's a science as well as an art. Agreed. And yeah, thank you for the amazing overview of the CWO.

[00:50:52] So when we talk about skills, if someone, if a company is looking to implement the CWO other than hiring you, what skills do they need to look for in the people they may have within the organization? Or if someone wants to become a CWO, what types of skills do they need to develop? Yeah. So it's a very new position.

[00:51:15] So if we really look at it, I mean, there's, I would say the last five years is when we've really seen organizations start to bring on CWOs. I'm an organizational psychologist, and I also have a master's in health management.

[00:51:32] So if you will, before, you know, I would say that there is a systems organizational skill set that really is required because this is not individual counseling. This is not individual therapy. This is not individual coaching. This is really organizational work. So that's what I think is very, very important. Obviously, organizational psychologists are perfect for this type of role.

[00:51:59] But I will say an organizational psychologist that has an understanding of evidence-based health interventions and well-being science is very important. So in a sense, Tim, I think that the role is really defined by having those two skill sets together. It might seem to people that aren't in this industry that that's unique to find. I don't think so.

[00:52:24] I think that practitioners in this space, I remember writing, completing a meta-analysis with a group of colleagues in, I think it was 2018, we published this work. And it was looking at all of the evidence base around individual interventions in the workplace versus cultural interventions. And there's a lot of growth in this area over the last 10 years.

[00:52:51] So most practitioners are not only focused on what we talked about as the program or the benefit, they're really focused on how do we take evidence-based services programs, embed them within culture, and make sure that they operate effectively to achieve the organization's goals.

[00:53:12] So I do think the practitioners in the health promotion population health arena today are being trained for that organizational work.

[00:53:23] So, and then last, I would say, if you look internally within your organizations, if you are successful within, I'm going to say, global health services or anything in this area within an organization today, I would look to those leaders and say, what are we most effective in today? And make sure that your internal experts can help guide you in filling the need for such a role.

[00:53:52] Because you might actually have people on your team already that have either the practical experience or the organizational experience, right? And then you have to marry that. But I always like to ask the teams that are doing already work, because most organizations are doing work in this space. They're just not doing it at that strategic priority level. And they want to do it at that level. So the question is, how do we do it and who do we need? And I always say, where are your gaps on your team right now?

[00:54:21] Because you might just need a fractional CWO, right? You might not need someone full time, especially if your C-suite says, I'm not sure that we want another, you know, person at that level, you know, for whatever reason. Maybe it's bringing in a fractional CWO. And I do this work now.

[00:54:41] So going into an organization, working with the existing team, the existing CHRO, the existing health services team, doing that needs assessment, providing it to them.

[00:54:52] Again, you're enabling leaders that are already in the organization to look at this from a different perspective in a strategic way and execute a strategy that could truly effectively change their engagement and relationship with their employees to excel business performance. That's the end goal. So however way that you can get there is important.

[00:55:18] But, you know, the short answer to your question is, I think, organizational mindset, expertise in health and well-being. Okay, great. And what about knowledge of business? Because I've seen people come in from like the medical field or the research lab and get put into that executive environment and not understand all the different nuances of how business works.

[00:55:47] Well, I mean, that's where I would say that organizational psychology is kind of primary. Primary, I mean, again, you could be a researcher only as an organizational psychologist, I guess. But I think you're right, Tim. I think working within, I mean, I know for myself, I can say I spent 27 years working within matrixed organizations before moving over to, you know, federal government, which is very complex.

[00:56:15] You know, with all of the agencies and collaboration required. So certainly business experience is very important. I did have a number of business classes that I have gone through in my academics earlier in my career. They were certainly helpful. But there's nothing like working within an organization. And I'll go back to, I guess, what you're probably trying to get to, which I completely agree with.

[00:56:44] And I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth. But I said before that the CWO isn't necessarily responsible for every solution. But the CWO is absolutely responsible for effectively partnering with the leaders that own the function that might need to solve for the challenge that has been identified. And I can't understate that.

[00:57:10] So there were many things that we identified as priorities and actions that we needed to do in my previous roles. But many of those were owned by different leaders within the organization. So my job was to ensure that leader had the data they need. They understood why it was a priority.

[00:57:30] And they understood and could work with me on how to integrate that into their primary strategy and their scorecard, if you will, their performance scorecard for success to achieve what we needed to achieve organizationally, not just in their area of focus.

[00:57:48] So in a way, what the well-being strategy can do and what the CWA can do for an organization is they actually bring leaders together on a very strong organizational priority and make everyone perform at higher levels.

[00:58:06] I mean, I love my work, but it's a huge opportunity to win in today's environment, to look at your business, identify internal risks related to well-being, but also identify the opportunities that you have in front of you during a massive time of change from an AI perspective and even a nature strategy perspective.

[00:58:33] So I think this is one of the greatest opportunities for employers right now. So like I said before, don't miss the opportunity to have a competitive advantage and ensure that well-being is that, you know, part of that advantage moving forward.

[00:58:51] Because if you ignore it and you don't understand how you can further support your workforce and your leaders in this area, you will no doubt lose advantages that you could have. There's no doubt. Wonderful.

[00:59:13] I think you mostly answered my last question about where do you see this going in the next, call it five to 10 years. You said the last five years have really ramped up a lot, but there's a pendulum starting to swing away with this AI integration and people, some of the companies are not focusing as much on the human side of it. Where do you see next five or 10 years going?

[00:59:39] I mean, I honestly think that the organizations that are not focused on the human side of the, like I call it the, you know, machine human relationship. The ones that are not focused on the humans, I actually think will have a lot of cleanup to do and a lot of challenges in the future. I mean, I have no doubt.

[01:00:02] Unless there's not going to be any humans that, you know, survive, we are going to have major issues within organizations that don't recognize the importance of the human part of that equation. And those that do, and they really look at this as an opportunity like we've talked about for redesign of the relationship with employees.

[01:00:27] I think those organizations will excel because that is where the highest performing employees will want to work. They will not want to work at places that they are not cared for and they are not valued. There are four decades worth of data and research that demonstrate that. Human beings are not going to change. Why would any one of us want to go for work for an organization that doesn't value or care for us?

[01:00:57] Maybe if the paycheck is that high, but you just talked about sustainability, right? Sustainability. And when do we see that people perform at their highest? When it's intrinsic motivation that is driving them, not just the extrinsic. So again, this is the psychology of the workplace.

[01:01:20] And I do predict that organizations that are not equally, if not more focused on the human while they're, you know, while they're experts that focus on digital and creating their AI strategy are focused on all that technology.

[01:01:39] You know, if they're not sitting at that table and that is not a holistic strategy, inclusive of humans and peak performance and human performance, I think that they will find themselves with even greater challenges probably within the next two years. It's going to be a very short period of time to be able to see who falls off and who really thrives.

[01:02:06] Yeah, I'm so glad we're on the same page on that. And I see it exactly creating quite a bit of a split in the workforce in the sense of companies that are following that will get the talent. Jennifer, thank you so much. I know we could keep going forever on this. This is an area of passion for me as well as for you.

[01:02:31] And where can people find you if they want to hire you as a fractional CWO or check out the website? Oh, thanks, Tim. Yeah, so I'm independent now. So I've decided to leverage flexibility in my days and work with more organizations rather than just one right now. So I'm excited to, you know, talk to anybody who might be interested. The best place would be to go to www.drjenniferpostthat.com.

[01:03:00] And then I'm also on LinkedIn. I'm on Substack. I try to post regularly so people can see what I'm thinking and maybe even, you know, get folks like you to comment and share your own opinions online with some provocative thoughts out there. So, yeah, just I think my website is probably the easiest way to reach me. Awesome. And thank you so much for a great conversation today. My pleasure. It's been great to have you. And I'll make sure those links go in the show notes. Awesome. Thanks, Tim.

[01:03:30] We'll see you soon. That wraps up another episode of the Working Well podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate, review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Now, which guests or topics would you like to see featured on the show? Message me through LinkedIn or on the contact page of timborris.com with your ideas. Thanks for tuning in. I'm Tim Borris for Fresh Wellness Group. And I look forward to seeing you on the next episode. Bye. Bye.