#057 - Leadership Beyond Borders: Humanizing the Global Supply Chain (with Kerim Kfuri)

[00:00:02] Alright, I know what you're thinking. Why are you talking about supply chain? That's not my world. Correct. But here's the secret. Behind every product that we move across the globe are people with powerful leadership lessons about human performance, business effectiveness and the future of work.

[00:00:22] Since global supply chains touch every part of our lives, I've invited global entrepreneur, Kareem Kfuri on the show to discuss how we can accelerate the shift to a bolder leadership mindset, one that balances people, profits and the planet. We're going to discuss how lessons from supply chain leadership can help us thrive through change, invest in our teams and build better businesses, no matter what industry we're in.

[00:00:46] Kareem Kfuri, he's the president and CEO of the Atlas Network, which is an end to end supply chain enterprise. He's also the author of the bestselling book, Supply Chain Ups and Downs. From right sizing to near shoring and human sustainability. Let's dive in and discover the strategies reshaping business. Welcome to the Working Well Podcast, a show that explores the rapidly changing landscape of work and the impact it has on people and businesses.

[00:01:11] Each episode, we dive into hot topics in leadership, human sustainability and the future of work. I'm your host, Tim Boras. Kareem, great to have you on the show. So awesome to connect again after our chat the other day. Yeah, we're going to talk about supply chain. And a lot of my listeners are probably thinking supply chain.

[00:01:36] You talk about human performance and what does supply chain have to do with the human side. So in our chat last time, we talked about globalization and some of the impacts on humans, the planet and the future of work.

[00:01:52] And supply chain really is such a massive part of our global culture these days that I think a lot of people forget what type of impact it has on the humans behind it, but also the businesses that are being developed around this. So talk to me a bit about the human side of globalization. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, first of all, thank you for having me on the show. What a great show it is.

[00:02:16] And for the very thoughtful question. I mean, we still run business with humans. And, you know, I think that regardless of our advancements in technology and into the future and AI and so on and so forth, we will still always have this combination of humans, the importance, what we bring, what we do, the camaraderie between us, the relationships that we build.

[00:02:43] And all of this comes into play with regards to globalization and the supply chain. I mean, when you are dealing with procurement and sourcing with people and factories or manufacturers on the other side of the planet, you know, there is a component of people there and a respect for cultures and differences between you, differences in terms of even quality metrics, timeliness, how to perform, when to perform.

[00:03:13] How to perform in different ways. And so, you know, there's a very large human component to this. And we can also see, for example, in the world of business, that when humans get upset with the way a certain mechanism may be, you know, unfolding, the importance of the human in that mechanism. And a perfect example would be, let's say, when the port workers decide to strike.

[00:03:40] You know, when that happens, that's a major disruption to the supply chain. And that's because those workers may not feel as though they're getting the right benefits or salaries or whatever it may be. And now goods can't get off ships and you have bottlenecks in the process and truckers can't take things off of vessels and deliver them to businesses who can't then sell. And businesses go out of business. People lose their jobs and the cost of goods start to skyrocket. And everyday consumers feel that.

[00:04:09] And it all was determined and set in motion because of, let's say, unfair practices or the discontent of humans in the supply chain. And, you know, the supply chain has so many facets to it of connecting continents and getting goods and services across the world from A to Z. And humans are at the heart of that entire process. And so, as we discuss this, it is very relevant.

[00:04:39] It is very important to realize the importance of the human in supply chain and how it matters every single day, whether it's with disruptions or enhancements. And you bring up like the dock workers striking and things.

[00:04:54] I think we always hear about the negative or the downside of globalization, whether it's factories overseas with poor conditions or even more locally, the plight of Amazon warehouse workers. Right. Part of the global supply chain is like people peeing in bottles at their station because they can't leave.

[00:05:16] And so I guess part of this is there's a business economic aspect. And but that's limited by the people in the system. It's not limited, but driven by the people in the system, because when they're unhappy, the supply chain is unhappy. Absolutely. And then everybody else who's related to the supply chain is unhappy again.

[00:05:43] Back to, you know, ultimately, when we think about, you know, let's say dock workers striking or same thing at Amazon, who ultimately becomes unhappy? Well, the businesses are unhappy because of what's happening. But the consumers, the downstream consumers are unhappy because goods are either not available or they're not delivered in time or the costs are cost prohibitive and people can't buy things anymore. Then you then create economic conditions of potential inflation and recession.

[00:06:09] And then even at the worst case scenario, depression because of supply and demand and supply and demand is geared up by these activities of these humans that are essential to this entire supply chain. So it's directly correlated. You know, you brought up Amazon. I mean, I can't remember what it was like 60 percent of online transactions are taking place via Amazon. 70 percent of the goods that are bought and sold on there come from China.

[00:06:38] Right. So we've got to get them from A to B, you know, across the oceans. And a lot of manufacturing discussions had to happen in communications and negotiations and delivery and so on, so forth. And this is the second largest company in the United States, right there. They're second behind Walmart. Billions and billions of dollars at stake. So, again, when those goods can't get delivered, then that whole mechanism falls apart very easily. So it's a real it's a real challenge. And that's in that way.

[00:07:09] Yeah. And one I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. One thing I've seen is that the companies tend to be doubling down on technology, AI and things like that to optimize the supply chain. People seem to be getting left in. It's neglected a bit. You think we learn lessons from the past.

[00:07:31] What are you seeing in the leadership mindset around future work and how this balance is being met? Well, I think it's I think it's quite poor right now. Be honest with you. I think the issue is, is that there isn't enough tone at the top and there isn't enough education being provided to workers as to how their future may look and how they're going to be a part of that future. Whatever that may be.

[00:08:01] The implementation of new technologies, efficient strategies, whatever it may be, so that people feel comfortable that they're not being displaced. And all that really comes down to is that comes down to communication. If communication was strong and it was cited as this is how we're changing things and this is how you're going to be a part of this new change, then people have a decision to either be excited about something or look into something different.

[00:08:28] The problem is, is that when no communication happens or it's not as appropriate or as strong as it could be. And then people start to determine their own thought processes around that their jobs are going to be replaced by machines or whatever else it may be. And then they feel like their other conditions aren't being met. So then they strike and disrupt further when all that really had to happen was a proper communication.

[00:08:50] You know, there has to be discussion around all of these enhancements and advancements so that one, there's understanding. But two, more importantly, there's adoption. Because what good is technology if there isn't adoption of the technology?

[00:09:08] And so it comes back to this idea that, you know, leaders that are in that position to lead these days need to be very cognizant that as changes are being implemented, there is very good training around this. There's very good communication, handholding, making sure that people come to an idea of the new shift. And that they are not only going to understand it, but they're going to be advocates for it. They're going to support it. They're going to be excited about it.

[00:09:37] And then therefore will adopt it. But if those things are not in place and those communications aren't in place, then it really is a, you know, a boulder running down the mountainside. Yeah. And you bring up so many great points about communication. It's so simple. It's not rocket science at all. But why do you feel it's not happening? I think it's not happening because we unfortunately have become an age of convenience and we've become an age of complacency.

[00:10:05] And that's because of technology as well, where we've almost in many circles lost our ability to communicate, where it's not even let's have a conversation. Let's have a phone call or a Zoom call or a text or whatever it may be. And we believe that the most efficient solution is to do so with as little words as possible, as much technology as possible, as much automation as possible. But there's a human that's involved in this scenario.

[00:10:33] And if you discount those human ties and those human connections and communications, then you end up really having more of a breakdown of the system than any efficiency that you're trying to implement. So I think that, you know, you may have organizations that say, OK, we want to like push this message out to this subset to let them understand these technologies. Let's just let them have a virtual training about it. Let's just let them have like a Zoom call about it.

[00:11:03] No, that when people are afraid about their job security and their lives and their families, you've got to sit down with them eye to eye, show them that you care and have a proper conversation about the fact that they have a strong future and an exciting one. And this is the way it's going to lay out tone at the top communication.

[00:11:22] But because it's offset, like I said, or positioned as, you know, almost an afterthought, it demeans the concerns of the interested parties that actually have a gripe or an issue. So you have to treat you have to treat humans with human decency, not treat humans with technological decency. That's a big difference, I think. Ideally, we do both because technology is part of our world.

[00:11:52] Your expertise in supply chain. What do you think it is about the supply chain industry that's different from other industries in that tone at the top? I think the difference is, is the cultural differences for sure. You're dealing on a global scale with entities and people that have different belief sets and laws that they follow and rules and parameters.

[00:12:18] And those all pose additional opportunities and additional challenges to getting great outcomes. So, you know, how can we sit around and talk about things that matter in the Western world when we may be dealing with some levels of manufacturing and procurement in the eastern part of the world? You know, in the Far East, for example. Those two worlds may not totally connect or meet up every day and in every single scenario.

[00:12:44] And so in that way, you innately have changes or potential obstacles or challenges you may face simply because of geography and because of cultural differences, religious differences, political differences. Right. And that's exactly what we're facing today between the United States and the Far East, because there are certain ideologies around what we want to achieve in the United States today.

[00:13:09] And there are certain ideologies around what the Far East wants to achieve in the global landscape today. And these two sides are not meeting up with each other. And so that's why there's been conversations around tariffs, because tariffs are about producing economic sanctions to try to curb behaviors and behaviors between nations when it has not been there.

[00:13:35] There hasn't been adequate resolution or you're trying to kind of saber rattle or or tie people to particular mandates or goals that they themselves don't want or believe. And so this is where you end up having the worst communication and worst resolution type of breakdowns. We can't resolve it in any other way, so we're just going to tax you. Right. That's it.

[00:14:00] We can't figure it out anyway, so we're just going to tax you until it hurts you enough that you bend our will. And this is also not the way that the global economy should work, but it is definitely seen in the world of supply chain for sure. Well, yeah, you've got global with all the goods passing multiple borders and passing through different countries. There are political aspects to it as well. Sure.

[00:14:27] And when you talk about the humans in the supply chain that now you're putting you're adding the layer of politics on top of it and geopolitics to add even more socks into the mix. Right. Right. And so you brought up a good point about the, I guess, values or cultural differences.

[00:14:53] Obviously, we see this in every organization, whether you're a mom and pop, a convenience store to Amazon or Apple. How the values get expressed within that organization is really important. So we're seeing a lot of companies these days, especially on the global scale.

[00:15:20] I don't want to say it's pushing their political agenda, but they're leading with their values and saying, hey, when I'm working with the supply chain, I'm going to see, I want this side of it. But Apple versus Amazon is probably a great difference. They are both large, multinational, global organizations. And so we're seeing a lot of companies moving goods all over and manufacturing. Well, Amazon's not really manufacturing, but distributing.

[00:15:50] Distributing. But they approach it very differently. Sure. Sure. I mean, you know, I think that we definitely are in an arena of business where people are consistently and businesses are consistently looking to identify themselves as being more than just transactional.

[00:16:09] And in that way, they are looking to bring some maybe a larger purpose or a larger message to how they want to run and operate their company, whether it's we really focusing in on sustainability or we're really focused in on, you know, flexible work schedules for our employees or whatever it may be to try to gain a foothold in this new global economy.

[00:16:34] And, you know, most of the time it seems to be, you know, being done for admirable reasons. But at the same time, sometimes it could be a lot of, you know, just to have a potential, a particular angle or a hook to their business to differentiate themselves from their competitors or be able to, you know, come through in some kind of an innovative manner. So we definitely see that happening.

[00:16:56] And then in the realm of supply chain, that's definitely the case, too, where, you know, we have these trends that will impact the supply chain, where a perfect example would be with Diageo, large spirits beverage organization, making the decision to not work with any more plastic bottles. You know, they made that decision. They said, we're just not going to do it. It pollutes our oceans. It hurts, you know, the environment. We don't want to do that and otherwise. So they decided to take this stance.

[00:17:25] And then a lot within the industry decided to kind of follow suit. And then people started looking at alternative type of products like biodegradable plastics made from corn or using more glass or using recycled glass. The idea of not just recycling, but upcycling and using products for other means and needs. And so you end up through this kind of value first approach, potentially creating changes in the supply chain or even potentially new areas of innovation within the supply chain.

[00:17:55] So that's where it can get really kind of interesting where some of the value propositions end up having reverberating effects. I love that. Yeah. And again, it goes back to the tone from the top. It requires a leader to stand up for, hey, this is what we believe in. And, you know, look at Yvonne Chenaire of Patagonia. All right. Perfect example of, hey, this is what we're going to do.

[00:18:20] And at the time it was heresy in the business world to do that. And it's worked out pretty darn well profitably. Yeah. But he had to stick to that. And he faced a lot of backlash. Yeah. There's like, I mean, I think about companies like Ben and Jerry's to ice cream, you know, and other organizations like that, that said, hey, you know what? This is our mantra. We're unapologetically going to be us.

[00:18:50] Whoever wants to be a part of this can be a part of it. And whoever doesn't can just kind of go away. Now, the unfortunate side is there's so many more companies that usually fail taking that approach than succeed because of the fact that it's hard to go against the grain. It's hard to go against the norm.

[00:19:09] And unless you're at a particular size or unless the products that you have are so innovative and captivating or fulfilling an unknown need, it's really hard to carve out that niche and then have many, many have the rest of the industry adopt that philosophy or ideology as well and even promote it. So it really just depends upon your size, your capabilities, the timing, all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:37] What are your thoughts on the, would you say it's a duty of the global leaders to be pushing that change? You mean the change that different organizations are choosing to make a difference or for organizations to make more of a difference? I'd say a bit of both because they're like the, you have to have that tone from the top to say, yeah, I want to, I want to, this is what I'm going to stand up for.

[00:20:07] And I want to make a benefit on my people on the planet or, and, and the business, you know, it's still a business, but we've seen more and more over the past couple of decades that you can. You can be a profitable growing business and still, it's not a, it's not a zero sum game. You can be profitable and you can grow. Yeah.

[00:20:35] And as a matter of fact, more often than not, you end up growing a lot more because of the fact that you chose to take care of your people, because of the fact that you put a mission behind what it is that you're trying to do. Then people aren't just working with their time. They're working with their hearts. And that's an important difference, right?

[00:20:53] If you can have people feel impassioned to come to work because they believe in the concept or the idea that, that the business is, is seeking to benefit for humanity or mankind or their individual families or whatever it may be. Then you've got a different reason as to why you show up for work every day outside of just a paycheck. And so I can definitely see how that's very, very important.

[00:21:18] It comes to a tone at the top, but it also comes from the actual message itself and how it's being packaged and how it resonates with your, your workers. Yeah. Yeah. That authenticity or integrity or even just humility to be able to say, you know what? Yeah, this is what we're going to stand behind and, and I'm, we're going to do it all together.

[00:21:45] And I think in the past, the leadership mindset has been, you know, forth forward, you know, whatever here, we're just here to solely service our shareholders and quarterly profits, which it, as part of business is still important.

[00:22:07] However, we're, we're seeing that change where there are new ways to achieve that, that also benefit other ends. Yeah, no, that's definitely true. I mean, you need to, you need to pay attention to the needs and interests and desires of your teams and your workers in order to get an outcome that will celebrate their successes. And at the same time, their concerns is very, very important.

[00:22:37] You know, when you have that level of let's call it leadership, where let's forge ahead, let's do what's best in the interest of our shareholders, this, that and the other, regardless, no matter what. It's, it's blinded to the actual process itself and the humans that are involved in that process. And it becomes so outcome driven that you technically go away from what is leadership.

[00:23:00] And what you end up being is you technically end up being followers of the goals, needs and initiatives of profit seeking sides of the business. You're not leading anymore. You're just following a script to try to get to a particular place. And that's, that's not necessarily the way to lead. I agree. Yeah. What are some of the bright spots that you see in the, in the supply chain, like especially on the global side?

[00:23:28] You know, there's a significant amount of effort and initiatives around sustainability, which I think is wonderful. There was top 28 conference, which happened in Dubai last year where the largest supply chain groups, and especially in transport and logistics showed up and committed to being carbon neutral by 2050.

[00:23:48] You know, this is a big deal because these vessels and planes and trains are going across the world trying to deliver these products and goods and services as part of the supply chain and end up being the seventh leading cause of ozone depletion and, and of greenhouse gas issues.

[00:24:06] And so we need to consistently be looking at how we're going to make that more sustainable and more efficient, whether it's through alternative energy sources or fuels, hydrogen hubs, how to make cleaner transport possible and do it efficiently and in a sustainable manner. So I feel, I believe that that's a real bright spot that the industry is coming to the realization that what good is it to have efficient supply chains that have no sustainability if we won't even have a planet anymore?

[00:24:36] You know? So we have to put the planet first in many ways with a lot of these activities so we can continue to do these activities. Mm-hmm. And how much of this is leadership mindset shifts versus regulatory expectations or mandates that they have to meet? It's both, really. I mean, it's both.

[00:24:59] It definitely should be more leadership, but unfortunately, sometimes these changes have to come into place because there is legal requirements to do so. So, but even when that happens, you still need to have leadership to say, well, we're doing it now and everybody's got to adopt this mindset and this principle from here on out. So I think it's both. I think it's both. Yeah.

[00:25:23] I'm curious as these, like, those mandates are positive from a change standpoint that it's going to hopefully spur things forward. Where do you think the risk happens from, you know, being another Volkswagen with the diesel scandal and things like that? People find, companies finding ways to skirt or cheat the requirements. So what are you asking? Where is the risk of that happening?

[00:25:53] Yeah. What's your impression of the leadership mindset around these regulations? Are people like, yeah, we're going to do it? Or is it? Well, I think that that really depends upon the organization and the leaders.

[00:26:11] If you've got good leaders that are always seeking best practices and are seeking innovation, regardless of what's required from a change standpoint, then those will be the ones that will be more willing and to adopt new change. And we'll also promote it throughout the organization in a clear, logical way that everybody can understand, grasp, and wants to support.

[00:26:34] But if you don't have that, if you have a closed-off mindset or you essentially are not really looking to, you know, promote these changes effectively, then it's a real challenge, not just for you and your organization, but for all your employees. Because now you're stuck in a place where you legally have to make some changes, but you mentally and physically don't want to. And so you sort of create a scenario of apathy towards change within your industry or organization.

[00:27:03] And that never ends well. Yeah. In our last conversation, we had a chat about the lessons in cutting corners. Get up. What are some high-profile examples in the supply chain you've seen of that? I don't know, like every single day? I mean, the reality of it is, is that this is the divergent interests between the different links in the supply chain.

[00:27:33] And I talk about that in my book, Supply Chain Ups and Downs. I talk about supply chain socioeconomics. And what I discuss here is, is that these divergent interests and needs are what create economic momentum. But it's a matter of compromise, concession, or abandonment. It's always not really a scenario of equilibrium. And one of those examples could be in cutting corners, right?

[00:28:01] So, perfect example is, a customer may want to spend eternity and go to analysis paralysis to not put out a product unless it's 1,000% perfect, which it never will be. That's why there's the concept of industry standards and tolerances. It means that there's never going to be perfect. It's always going to be in a range, right? But a supplier, on the other hand, is motivated by churn. They're motivated by producing and then moving on to the next project and getting it out and getting it out.

[00:28:31] So, in this way, the supplier is motivated to cut corners and cut corners all the way up until the point that they can kind of get away with it. Or the quality is like so bad and so horrendous that nobody could accept it. Whereas a customer is on the polar opposite end. So, this idea of cutting corners is there. But the problem with it is that when you do that in supply chain, mass production can become mass disaster.

[00:29:00] One side ends up cutting corners to be more efficient or more profitable. And in doing so, thousands or millions of people end up having a liability or some kind of a really negative outcome or circumstances because corners were cut. And that happens with everything. It could happen with transport. It could happen with the customs and clearance process, the warehousing, the fulfillment side. You know, any number of places within the supply chain. Yeah. That's what we've seen.

[00:29:30] Apple's a great example of holding those high standards in their supply chain versus you can go buy lots of knockoff stuff that's not. Right. Yeah. I've bought lots of things over the years that I've had for 25 years that are just amazing and still working. And other things that my wife and I were just talking about appliances the other day. I don't know. All right.

[00:29:59] Like how fast they turn over and die these days. They're like. Absolutely. It's like they have an internal clock that says it's already been a year time to start like smoking or time to start, you know, falling apart or that bolt is going to fall out of it on the side. It's like almost like there's like a internal like combustion, you know, thing that says, you know, once you're done reading this letter, it's going to explode type of thing with with appliances where a timer gets set from the moment you buy it.

[00:30:29] And the reason why is this is because they want you to buy another one. Yeah. And we had a chat about the business economics of that is like, well, if you build a product that's going to last 25, 30 years. You're not making money. Yeah. You want someone to buy version 2.0, version 3.0. What better way to do that than to have version 1.0 break? Yeah. Right.

[00:30:57] And so what point does the pendulum start to swing back where we're just, you know, think of landfills and being able to deal with all the old products? Well, it's already swinging back in some ways. I mean, not necessarily so much with this.

[00:31:20] I mean, we do know that particular brands that are of a particular quality have a longer, you know, have a longevity that maybe other brands don't. But one way that it's being combated, at least with like landfills and things of that nature in the supply chain is with regards to packaging, specifically like boxes.

[00:31:40] I don't know if we talked about this the last time, but the idea of right sizing, where essentially today you may get that shipment from Amazon and it's in a huge box with airbags and there's a little tiny thing inside of it. Well, that wasn't profitable to the company because of the fact that they just paid for three or four or 10 times the amount of packing materials they needed.

[00:32:00] And it definitely wasn't profitable for the planet because the fact that that excess cardboard all ends up in the landfills and it's not profitable for the business because they pay more for shipping, for dimensions that they don't even really need for a particular product. And they have to pay for all of those materials that are in excess.

[00:32:19] So, you know, concepts such as cubing or right sizing are becoming extremely important, extremely popular where as products are being scanned, boxes are being made in real time that perfectly fit to those products to reduce the material wastage, to reduce impacts to our landfills, to reduce excess costs for businesses.

[00:32:43] And so this is a scenario where the intention of being a bit sustainable is ringing through for businesses, for the environment and so forth because it's got a good intention to it. So, yeah, I just saw that the other day. I ordered something that came through FedEx. I don't know if this was FedEx or if it was a shipping company's duty, but the thing I bought was about the size of my fist. And it came in a box about this big.

[00:33:11] And literally, I could have put maybe 50 of the products in a box. Correct. And it's not profitable for the business either because think about the space that that takes up in a container.

[00:33:25] Like if you could fit 40 of those instead of four of those on a pallet, then you just increased your ability to send more product per container, per pallet, per container, which reduces your shipping costs because you're dividing it out over more volume of SKUs rather than less volume of SKUs. Yeah. Yeah. And I see Amazon's been getting better at that from what I've seen. And they're. They've.

[00:33:55] The thickness of their cardboard's gotten less and seem to be using a bit less of it. So I see them making some changes. What do you see with the right sizing making boxes? That's one really positive future step. What do you see some of the next big steps are in terms of those developments and changes in the industry? Yeah. I mean, I think it's time to market, which is basically becoming very important.

[00:34:22] And how we do that is, is through a lot of AI tools such as ideation tools, things like mid journey or Adobe tools where it would take three or four or six months to work with a designer and an engineer to get what's in your mind down as an appropriate rendering or ideation process. Now you can do that in a matter of seconds. You literally can do a matter of seconds by going into some of these tools, throwing in some keywords, reference examples, so on and so forth.

[00:34:51] And in doing that, it'll spit out for you beautiful renderings or ideation phases that you can then turn into prototypes very easily, which then bring new products to market faster. So that's a that's a big area. Another area is definitely in the transportation side, where a lot of technology is being put into place, like to find the right and most efficient routes, the one with the least carbon footprint, the one which has the least cost.

[00:35:18] And looking at all of these aspects across many different parameters in order to have a good outcome as it relates to shipping and transport and logistics and visibility around it as well. So that's pretty that's pretty amazing, too. Mm hmm.

[00:35:34] And then from the one of the comments you made earlier was that supply chain industry maybe is a little bit behind maybe some of the other industries in terms of that tone from the top or the leadership development. What do you think needs to happen to accelerate that progress? You know, I hate to say it, but unfortunately, a lot of pain.

[00:36:02] And what I mean by that is, is that businesses will make some really not intelligent short term decisions. And then they will realize how important their workers are or their processes need to be shifted or changed. And then they will then make appropriate change. And in some cases, it'll be too late. And in other cases, it'll be, you know, just in enough time.

[00:36:28] But the reality of it is, is that we need to be working consistently on becoming better leaders and adopting change before the change comes to our doorstep, before the issues come to our doorstep, really. But that's not the way business works. Oftentimes, they don't want to rock the boat. They want to just kind of keep things status quo until they have to or need to. And that's a counterproductive mentality.

[00:36:55] And, well, it also speaks to the competing interests that you had mentioned before. There are lots of people out there that are just looking for that short term profit and they don't care. Right. I mentioned Patagonia and like the B Corp and the people, planet, profit, triad.

[00:37:20] Triad, we know that it works, but it requires buy-in across. Oh, it does. It does require buy-in. It requires particular levels of edit. I mean, it requires acceptance. It requires so many different facets to be able to bring something new to the table, for sure.

[00:37:42] The shifting, at least in some parts of North America anyway, but I'd say quite a bit of Europe as well. There seems to be a shifting consumer sentiment that they're willing to support companies that are making these changes.

[00:38:05] Yes, there is, but it's not always there's support, but whether it's universal adoption is a different thing. And that's important again. And that does come back to that tone at the top that we were talking about, that, you know, the adoption comes because you have strong leaders or big businesses that are in a position to lead within an industry. And they decide to say, we are making these changes.

[00:38:32] And then everyone else around them says, oh, I guess we're going to jump on the bandwagon, too. Let's make those changes as well. But it's not enough to just kind of follow what everybody else is doing. To really lead means exactly that. You have to lead and lead without reservation or without looking over your shoulder to say that's what this group is doing. That's what this is. So we need to lead in that way, but more so to say, hey, I want to lead in that way because it's right. Not necessarily being a follower, but being a leader with regards to your own change that you're trying to enact.

[00:39:04] Yeah, that's going back to the comment I made earlier. But I see that some of the larger companies, the Amazons, the Apples, the Procter & Gamble, those massive supply chain companies, is to just set the bar, raise the bar because the bar is set pretty low right now. Yeah, that's true.

[00:39:30] To raise that bar for what the future looks like and technology will help and all these optimizations. But really, it's that decision to step over the line and say, here's where the new line is. Yeah, of course. Of course. Of course. Yes, we need to. Sometimes it's kind of like football, to give an analogy, where you got to go yard by yard. You know, you got to just kind of take your time.

[00:39:58] You're still advancing, always advancing, but it doesn't always look like you're going to get the touchdown right there or break out for that amazing pass or catch. Sometimes it's just going to be, you know, little by little. But in some industries, that's all you can expect until there is something that's majorly problematic that comes to your doorstep that you must shift and must change and react to. It's amazing how, and the largest companies are the biggest offenders of this, really,

[00:40:27] where they just want to kind of go slow and steady. They're big behemoths. It's tough to turn the Titanic easily and pivot and change. And in some industries, that gives an opportunity to larger or mid-sized companies to basically take market share because they are willing to make those changes. They are willing to make those pivots faster than the behemoths within the organization. So. Well, it's an amazing point. Yeah.

[00:40:54] And even some of the smaller companies, like the boutique companies that are very agile and nimble, and they are started on a values proposition, correct, to improve a certain aspect of the market, to solve that for that pain point. And at some point, as those companies start to grow, the larger companies have to respond in some way. You know, some of them are so big that they can just get by without.

[00:41:22] But we often see them getting acquired. Hopefully, they get rolled in and change happens in the bigger company. But other times, they get acquired to just shut them up. I was about to say that. To just put it to shelve them. To just put them. Yep. Yeah. And so I'm an optimist at heart. I like to think that we are moving forward.

[00:41:45] I often get frustrated about how slowly that's happening, particularly on the leadership side, the mindset side. Being a coach and a performance person, it's, I always want to see leaders taking those risks and stepping out there. Sure. Not everyone leads that way. It's true. It's very true. Absolutely. Very, very true. And there's something to be learned from that, too. I think that there's a temperance to change, right?

[00:42:14] Sometimes you want to change so quick that the change hasn't been fully thought through. Sometimes you need to phase in change to then see how things are changing or how markets or people are adopting or adapting to changes to then really know if you go kind of all in on it. So I think that there is some level of a benefit, too, through phased change and taking sometimes a diligent approach to make sure.

[00:42:43] Because, you know, if you just kind of change it all over in the snap of your fingers, then you may have either missed something or missed the mark entirely or assumed things that really shouldn't have been assumed or otherwise all in the sake of change. So, you know, phasing is good, too, sometimes.

[00:43:00] I think that's a good point.

[00:43:31] Through existing networks. For entrepreneurs in that space, what's your advice for success in your vision? Sure. Well, you need to consistently. First of all, if you're an entrepreneur, you need to be ready to go home with the successes and failures. That's for sure.

[00:43:53] And in that way, you need to consistently be learning and learning from your failures because your failures are not failures. They're successes, successful ways of telling you how to not do something a few times over or that way or this way. Right. And we always talk about the professional athletes. Nobody talks about, you know, the one hundred thousand shots they missed so that they could make that one shot when it counted in the game or whatever it may be.

[00:44:20] And so you have to be willing to fail a lot. You have to be willing to take risks. You have to be willing to take the greatest risk on yourself more than anything else. That's the greatest risk you can take and the most rewarding risk. Because by betting on yourself, you really give yourself the ultimate level of control and opportunity to really grow and build yourself. Love it. Yeah.

[00:44:45] And sometimes when we're in the thick of that thought learning, it's hard to see the bigger picture. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It's true. And then from speaking to leaders within supply chain organizations, what would you feel leaders can do most to really push this people, planet, profit, impact forward within mid to large size organizations?

[00:45:14] What can they do? Yeah. The reality of it is, is if people want to have the tone at the top or the leadership within an organization look to make particular shifts or changes, similar to what you just said, people, planet, profit. You have to make it make sense for the audience that you are positioning these ideas to.

[00:45:40] So if it's people that are focused in on dollars and cents, like finance people, you may want to talk about something like right sizing and say, hey, you know what? Let's have a more sustainable practice here, which actually saves us a hell of a lot of money and at the same time helps the planet too. This is a perfect opportunity with the way that we package up our goods. And there will be countless examples of that, but you need to know the audience. If it's people that are more on a moral crusade, then you have to play into those ideas.

[00:46:09] If it's people that are more into just the equilibrium or the balance of work life or the way that employees are treated, then you have to highlight examples, relative real examples of how that backfires when you don't take care of those things or look into those things. Either way, you need to make it relevant for the audience that you're communicating to. And then that's really how you get the adoption. Fantastic. Lots more we could talk about. And there's so many developments in this industry.

[00:46:39] It changes minute by minute. Yeah. Where if people want to learn more about supply chain, some of the technology solutions you have, your book, where can they find you? Sure. So I'll give you three links that would be good places for people. First of all, for all my thought leadership and just kind of general knowledge and information, it would be at KareemKafuri.com, which is my first and last name.

[00:47:03] For any businesses out there, entrepreneurs who need supply chain solutions, it would be my company, which is TheAtlasNetwork.com. That's the name of my company, The Atlas Network. And finally, for the book, it would be at SupplyChainUpsAndDowns.com or on Amazon. Those guys still sell books, believe it or not, among the billions of other products that they sell. And so you can find it there too. And I do a lot on social media as well if anybody looks at any of those platforms too.

[00:47:34] Excellent. Well, I will make sure those links go in the show notes and on my site. Thank you so much, Kareem. It's been amazing to have you on the show and thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom. I really appreciate it and it was a great show. Thank you for the thoughtful questions. All right. We'll chat soon. All right. That wraps up another episode of the Working Well podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate, review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:48:02] Now, which guests or topics would you like to see featured on the show? Message me through LinkedIn or on the contact page of TimBoris.com with your ideas. Thanks for tuning in. I'm Tim Boris with Fresh Wellness Group and I look forward to seeing you on the next episode.