#054 - The Technology Paradox: The Promise vs. Reality of Workplace Tech (with Rebecca Kirstein Resch)

[00:00:02] Technology is essential for modern life. But as humans, and particularly as employees, far too many of us are drowning in it.

[00:00:11] What was supposed to improve our performance and productivity has become a rat's nest of software platforms and distractions, recueing performance, productivity, and well-being. Generative AI has only amplified the noise and the pace of change.

[00:00:25] The good news is, there's a better way. My guest is Rebecca Kirstein Resch. She's at the forefront of using humane technology to help humans thrive.

[00:00:35] We dig deep into the critical people and technology challenges facing leaders and organizations today, and the implications for the sustainability of their businesses and workforce.

[00:00:45] Welcome to the Working Well Podcast, the show that explores the rapidly changing landscape of work and well-being.

[00:00:52] Each episode, we dive into the hottest topics in leadership, human flourishing, and the future of work.

[00:00:58] I'm your host, Tim Borys.

[00:01:04] Rebecca, it's so awesome to have you on the show. And after our last conversation, I'm excited to chat about technology and people and humanity and all the different amazing things that are happening in our world and how it impacts people, performance, business. How you been?

[00:01:23] Rebecca Kirstein. I've been great. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited for this conversation.

[00:01:28] It's going to be awesome. Now, quick little update on, we chatted in our last conversation about lots of different areas. We're going to talk a bit about the technology paradox today and what you, tell me, what is the technology paradox?

[00:01:46] Yeah. What is the technology paradox? Well, I think we all feel it, whether we can put words to it or not. But, you know, I think we all know that technology is supposed to make our lives easier.

[00:01:58] And in many ways it does. It makes our lives easier, more connected, improves our productivity, does all these great things for us. But the paradox is, is that it also is causing us techno stress. You know, we're checking.

[00:02:14] I don't even know how many platforms anymore. We're on a whole bunch of different platforms at work. We're on a whole bunch of different platforms in our day to day lives.

[00:02:22] We don't necessarily have a sense of what digital wellness is or what it looks like. We haven't been taught those skills. We just kind of fell into this world where technology was a part of everything that we do.

[00:02:34] And while it makes our lives better, it also significantly detracts from our well-being, our sense of connection and presence.

[00:02:41] And it's really hurting us in a lot of ways. And the good news is there's something we can do about it. There's a lot of things we can do about it.

[00:02:50] Perfect. Now you mentioned the term, was it techno wellness or?

[00:02:56] Techno stress, yes.

[00:02:58] Well, techno stress, but the wellness around technology. I've never heard of the exact term.

[00:03:04] Digital well-being.

[00:03:05] Digital wellness, digital well-being. So people hear well-being and they hear digital and they often don't think those connect at all. Can you talk about what your definition of digital well-being is?

[00:03:16] Yeah, absolutely. I think digital well-being is kind of a new term for a lot of people. There's an amazing organization that's a partner of ours called the Digital Wellness Institute.

[00:03:25] And they have a whole bunch of amazing tools for students, for parents, for organizational leaders and organizations themselves.

[00:03:34] And digital wellness is really about using technology in ways that enhance and improve our lives, but don't detract from our experience as human beings.

[00:03:45] And I think there's a lot of ways and they have an amazing definition that's probably far better than mine that I couldn't quote you if I tried.

[00:03:53] But at the end of the day, digital wellness is about recognizing how technology can dramatically impact our lives in negative ways and taking steps towards mitigating those risks for ourselves, for our families, and certainly as leaders and organizations for our employees.

[00:04:10] Imagine doom scrolling social media like three in the morning isn't digital wellness?

[00:04:16] That's a great example of one of the things that is a way in which we get caught up in technology.

[00:04:23] And I think we all now know that these technology platforms are designed to suck us in.

[00:04:29] The race to the bottom of the brainstem is a term that the Center for Humane Technology uses to describe the social media platforms.

[00:04:39] And that's exactly what those platforms are designed for, to keep us there as long as humanly possible, to log as many hours as possible on TikTok or Facebook or Instagram or any of these other platforms.

[00:04:51] And that's the way in which these technologies are designed that are fundamentally designed not for human thriving, but ultimately to suck us in and prey on human vulnerabilities.

[00:05:05] And that is exactly what we need to be aware of as consumers of this technology.

[00:05:10] And we need to find ways in which we can mitigate that for ourselves and for our organizations and certainly our kids.

[00:05:18] That quote, or the term race to the bottom of the brainstem, I've never heard that before.

[00:05:23] That is fantastic and creepy.

[00:05:26] It's super creepy.

[00:05:28] And it's exactly what these technology companies are knowingly designing for.

[00:05:32] That's the design goal.

[00:05:33] How can we get to the bottom of your brainstem and keep you here by capitalizing on every vulnerability we know you have?

[00:05:44] And that is not okay.

[00:05:47] Yeah.

[00:05:48] Yeah.

[00:05:49] You have talked about humane technology.

[00:05:53] Based on what you've just said, I imagine humane technology is the digital wellness side, is how we're using technology for good.

[00:06:02] What ways do you see that's happening in the market right now?

[00:06:06] I see that in a couple of different ways.

[00:06:08] I think there's digital wellness in which we are devising ways in which we can protect ourselves, become more aware of how technology is affecting us, find ways and strategies in our lives to mitigate our technology use,

[00:06:23] how it's affecting us in the workplace and at home and our kids.

[00:06:27] So that's like the digital wellness component is like, what can we actually do about this?

[00:06:31] But when I talk about humane technology, I'm talking about it more from the perspective of as technology creators, of which I am one, the CEO of a technology company.

[00:06:40] It's incredibly important that those who are developing and designing and creating technologies for human use to improve outcomes for human beings, we have to be aware of those risks.

[00:06:54] We have to understand that the entire model that we're all sort of signing up for here when we start a technology company is actually starts with our economic model.

[00:07:04] The VC model is designed to invest money in products like ours, technology companies like ours, and the goal is growth at all costs.

[00:07:16] And so that does not take into account human thriving, human flourishing, all the different language we might want to give that.

[00:07:23] It really is about how do I keep you in and on my technology as much as humanly possible?

[00:07:29] How many daily active users, monthly active users, how many hours are those users logging?

[00:07:34] That's what equals revenue in the way in which we are funding technology companies, the way those technology companies are designing technology.

[00:07:42] And so it's very difficult for a founder of a technology company like ours to build responsible, humane technology,

[00:07:50] because you have to go outside of that paradigm and you have to find investors that believe in that.

[00:07:55] And you have to find customers that want to develop technology that actually supports people to thrive and mitigate some of those risks,

[00:08:02] especially when you're developing social technologies, of which ours is as a workplace technology.

[00:08:07] But it's certainly a social technology.

[00:08:09] And our goal is not to keep you there as much as humanly possible.

[00:08:12] Our goal is to help you get the knowledge you need and then get out into the real world and use that knowledge in application,

[00:08:19] solving problems with real humans in real organizations.

[00:08:21] And that doesn't fit the paradigm that we currently exist in, our current economic paradigm.

[00:08:28] And certainly the trap of technology companies is it's designed for us to be extractive.

[00:08:37] And our technology isn't designed that way.

[00:08:39] It's designed for human thriving.

[00:08:41] And that is a bit of a paradox in and of itself.

[00:08:44] Yeah.

[00:08:45] Yeah.

[00:08:45] And if we look at the bigger picture of technology in general, I totally get that economic model.

[00:08:52] And we see that in all the social media platforms out there.

[00:08:56] What areas have you seen where that race to the bottom of the brainstem is being used,

[00:09:03] but in a positive way to help people make positive behaviors rather than the doom scrolling at three in the morning?

[00:09:12] Absolutely.

[00:09:13] So whether we're talking about, you know, meditation apps, lifestyle apps, exercise, you know,

[00:09:19] all those kinds of things where, you know, I'm getting a reminder right now on my Fitbit that I haven't gotten up in an hour

[00:09:25] and that maybe I want to get off my butt and move around, right?

[00:09:29] Those are the ways in which, you know, these technologies that are designed to actually help us with behaviors

[00:09:34] that we acknowledge and agree to are positive for us, right?

[00:09:38] So I've decided to put this thing on my wrist and I've decided I want to monitor my sleep and I want to know how many steps I took today.

[00:09:46] And I want to know what my heart rate is and I want to monitor those things over time.

[00:09:50] So that is something that I am knowingly allowing this technology to collect my data and compare it to other people's data

[00:10:00] and help me make better decisions about my health.

[00:10:03] Because I know that when you and I are done talking, I need to get up and move around.

[00:10:07] And maybe I would have done that before I had the Fitbit on my arm,

[00:10:11] but I sure know I'm going to do it because it's going to buzz me and tell me that it's time to get up.

[00:10:16] And those kinds of things are ways in which technologies are designed, you know, to capitalize on that

[00:10:23] in ways that are not only positive for health and well-being, but consensual.

[00:10:28] I've decided to do that, right?

[00:10:31] Whereas when you look at social media like technologies,

[00:10:34] there are so many ways in which you can't participate in our economy

[00:10:37] if you are not on social media as a business person.

[00:10:41] There are many ways in which you are socially ostracized as a young person

[00:10:45] if you are not on these social media platforms.

[00:10:48] And so it's become so embedded in our culture that it's not consensual anymore.

[00:10:53] It's something that you almost have to participate in many parts of the world and in many organizations.

[00:11:00] And certainly as young people out in the world, it's no longer optional.

[00:11:04] And that's a big problem.

[00:11:09] And that's one of the reasons I asked that question is I'm a technology evangelist.

[00:11:15] I always see the positive side of it.

[00:11:17] And I think technology has such an amazing, positive impact on society.

[00:11:22] Of course, there are downsides and people will use it nefariously.

[00:11:26] But I think the upside is so much greater.

[00:11:30] And I hear you on the social media with two teenagers right now.

[00:11:35] Totally.

[00:11:36] Totally.

[00:11:36] It's a bit insanity.

[00:11:37] And that's how teenagers communicate.

[00:11:40] And so the guardrails we have to set are pretty tight to make sure they're not having the negative impact.

[00:11:48] Because we see that in some of their friends.

[00:11:50] And we see it in them when we let the guardrails off for a weekend or something.

[00:11:55] Yeah.

[00:11:56] It's like they get sucked down that rabbit hole very quickly.

[00:12:01] And most young people are not thinking about the fact that their brainstem has been commandeered by this piece of technology.

[00:12:09] And they're just excited to be in the loop with their friends and what's going on out in the world.

[00:12:16] And there's so many positive ways in which these technologies improve their lives that, you know, often when we're teenagers, we're not thinking about the long-term effects of that on our brain or what it's taking us away from.

[00:12:28] And to be fair, most of us grownups are not doing that either.

[00:12:35] It's not just our kids.

[00:12:38] One of the topics we chatted a little bit about was how technology can improve and reduce productivity.

[00:12:47] So what are the things you're seeing in those areas?

[00:12:50] Yeah, this is one of my favorite topics.

[00:12:52] Because, of course, technology can improve our productivity.

[00:12:56] And this whole explosion of generative AI, there's nobody alive who isn't thinking about, you know, ways in which AI is improving human productivity.

[00:13:05] But we're also inundated with technology.

[00:13:09] So the place we're at with technology in organizations right now, the last I checked in an enterprise, there was like over 300 software as a service, SaaS applications that these organizations are paying for, that their employees are using.

[00:13:24] So many of these tools aren't integrated.

[00:13:26] We're constantly context switching.

[00:13:28] We're constantly interrupted by tools like Slack and Teams.

[00:13:32] And I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of deep work, right?

[00:13:37] Those of us who are knowledge workers, creatives, you know, you have to focus on real work, the work that you are paid to create.

[00:13:46] Whether you're a writer or, you know, you're working in a software company, doing sales, whatever it may be, whatever work it is that you're doing in your day to day is constantly being interrupted.

[00:13:56] I think the average, I believe the number was 237 Slack notifications in a day or workplace communication notifications in a day is the average for a knowledge worker.

[00:14:08] People are spending 30% of their time looking for information or people that can help them.

[00:14:13] The amount of emails we receive has skyrocketed.

[00:14:16] There's now multiple platforms where we're checking messages in the day.

[00:14:19] Like, no wonder people are feeling frazzled and burnt out and we aren't getting as much done as we used to.

[00:14:27] Productivity is not increasing in the way that we think it is.

[00:14:30] And this paradox is continuing to increase because while we're bringing on tools to improve our productivity,

[00:14:38] many of these tools impede the very productivity they're looking to improve by competing with each other for our attention.

[00:14:46] And so it is both an improvement to productivity in isolation, but when you combine it with all the other ways and all the other types of technology that we're using,

[00:14:57] it's actually dramatically decreasing our productivity and all this context switching.

[00:15:03] We're not even taking into account in this conversation yet, the context switching and how long it takes our brain to recover from,

[00:15:10] oh, I was interrupted by a Slack message to help a coworker do X.

[00:15:13] And now I've got to get back on track with this thing I was doing over here.

[00:15:17] And how long it takes our brain to get back into flow when that's interrupted.

[00:15:22] And most of us are constantly interrupted throughout the day and we don't have great practices and our organizations that we're working for are not giving us the tools and the guardrails and the permission to disconnect.

[00:15:38] The other stat that came out of the recent studies done, I think it was Deloitte that did this one,

[00:15:44] that it was 11 hours that the average person was spending knowledge workers again on their workplace technologies.

[00:15:52] 11 hours a day.

[00:15:53] Wait, we're only supposed to be working eight hours a day and we're actually answering messages at eight o'clock at night.

[00:15:59] We don't have policies around that.

[00:16:01] Our coworkers do it.

[00:16:02] Our boss sends us messages.

[00:16:03] So we feel like we have to respond.

[00:16:05] And as a result, we're always on.

[00:16:08] And that's a huge problem.

[00:16:10] And it's a big contributor to burnout and our decreasing wellbeing.

[00:16:14] Oh, absolutely.

[00:16:15] The, one of the best books I read probably at least over a decade ago, probably 15 years ago now is called The Myth of Multitasking.

[00:16:24] Yeah.

[00:16:24] Yeah.

[00:16:25] And that was 15 or 20 years ago it was written.

[00:16:28] Yeah.

[00:16:29] It's things have exponentially increased since then.

[00:16:32] But yeah, the tasks, the cost of that task switching is just so high.

[00:16:37] So high.

[00:16:38] I know the days when I feel most stressed are when I'm like, I've got 5% of 20 things done instead of 100% of one thing.

[00:16:45] And it's like, you just, you get to the end of the day and you've been busy all day and doing stuff, but nothing's been done or accomplished.

[00:16:53] And it's just, it's maddening.

[00:16:56] And then you repeat that day after day.

[00:16:58] And it's crazy.

[00:17:00] One of my favorite authors on the topic, well, actually one of the co-founders of the Digital Wellness Institute, Amy Blankson, she calls it the tyranny of the urgent.

[00:17:09] And that is the world we are living in is everything is constantly urgent.

[00:17:16] And how do you respond to that?

[00:17:19] How do you prioritize?

[00:17:21] How do you determine what is actually important and relevant to you?

[00:17:24] And I think there's just so many of us struggling with that day to day.

[00:17:27] And I think our digital wellness and digital balance is such a critical component.

[00:17:32] And we just don't do a great job yet.

[00:17:34] I have hope the Digital Wellness Institute and other organizations like theirs give me hope that organizations are signing up to say, yes, this is a problem.

[00:17:44] We want to help people with it.

[00:17:46] And certainly in schools.

[00:17:47] And, you know, this is starting to happen, but not at all with the urgency that's required.

[00:17:52] Yeah.

[00:17:53] Yeah.

[00:17:53] We're not accountants and lawyers and entrepreneurs.

[00:17:56] We're firefighters.

[00:17:57] Exactly.

[00:17:58] Exactly.

[00:17:59] All day, every day.

[00:18:00] Yeah.

[00:18:00] We just need to put a pole in the office and the sirens and have a Dalmatian out front.

[00:18:06] We'll be good.

[00:18:08] I love it.

[00:18:10] And so one of the things you mentioned before is the how with all these interruptions and sources of information, whether it's online or within companies with 300 software programs and things like that,

[00:18:29] how do people get the right information at the right time without just using chat GPT and hoping it's correct?

[00:18:37] I'm hoping it's correct.

[00:18:39] Such a good question.

[00:18:40] Well, I'm a little biased on this because this is certainly the area of technology that I work in for sure.

[00:18:47] But I think that is you're speaking about one of the other challenges that is now being created by, you know, sort of this explosion of generative AI.

[00:18:57] And so most people who work in larger organizations are seeing this start to become a part of their day to day work.

[00:19:05] There's a lot of people that are freaked out and fearful about AI taking their jobs.

[00:19:09] There's not a lot of leaders in organizations who are having that conversation with their people and even describing the strategy that they're most of them don't have a lot of strategy around it.

[00:19:21] It's like, oh, crap, we better keep up with our competitors and plug in these technologies that are, you know, promising to improve productivity, etc.

[00:19:30] And so we're seeing a lot of, you know, increase in technologies without decreasing or integrating or figuring out, you know, the bigger picture strategy here.

[00:19:43] And so the more we keep piling on technology, the more we're stressing people out, not only with the fear of is AI going to take my job, but with the constant barrage of new technologies.

[00:19:54] And I think we need to start thinking more minimalist and looking at what we can take away versus consistently adding.

[00:20:02] And I also think we need to really help people understand inside organizations what our strategy is with AI.

[00:20:11] And I think that comes down to leadership to really look at this next sort of onslaught.

[00:20:18] I love the language, too, that the Center for Humane Technology has some really great zingers on humane technology.

[00:20:26] But they call this next phase like second contact.

[00:20:29] They called social media first contact.

[00:20:31] They're calling generative AI second contact.

[00:20:33] And second contact is like, OK, what did we learn from this explosion of social technologies

[00:20:41] and how dramatically they've really embedded themselves into every, you know, influencing elections, you know, increasing teen,

[00:20:51] everything from teen anxiety to mental health to suicides, et cetera.

[00:20:56] You know, you name it.

[00:20:57] Like there's a lot of things we can blame on social media that were really horrific for society.

[00:21:03] And we haven't figured that out yet.

[00:21:05] And now we're adding even more technology on top of that that is going to embed itself into the fabric of our culture

[00:21:13] and our organizations and certainly our kids.

[00:21:17] And so if we are going to not learn from the previous contact, the first contact,

[00:21:23] we've really got to start looking at how we can respond much more quickly in terms of policy and ethics,

[00:21:29] all of these, you know, kind of bigger issues.

[00:21:33] But at the individual level, what can we do as human beings inside our organizations to improve our own experience?

[00:21:40] How can we learn about this?

[00:21:41] How can we become advocates for this inside our organizations?

[00:21:44] If I'm not the leader of my organization, but I'm an individual inside an organization,

[00:21:49] how can I educate myself and my coworkers?

[00:21:52] How can I provide better boundaries?

[00:21:53] How can I demand better of my employers, et cetera?

[00:21:56] There's so much to learn.

[00:21:58] And I think it's really overwhelming people.

[00:22:00] I think I totally went off sidetrack of your actual question on a tangent there, as I do.

[00:22:08] Well, I wouldn't say you did.

[00:22:11] It's all related in the sense of where are we getting the information?

[00:22:17] Is it correct?

[00:22:18] How are we interacting with it?

[00:22:20] Yeah.

[00:22:20] How can, if we go back to the performance and productivity?

[00:22:24] Yes.

[00:22:25] How can we get people to perform better at what they're doing while improving productivity,

[00:22:30] lowering the mental load it takes to find that information,

[00:22:34] the stress that's associated with that,

[00:22:37] and allow them to free up time to do things that are actually good at doing?

[00:22:42] Yeah, which I think I started to answer that.

[00:22:46] And truthfully, I think, I mean, this is the problem that our organization is focused on,

[00:22:52] is solving this human issue of how do we actually improve the day-to-day workplace

[00:22:58] with respect to technology for human beings,

[00:23:01] so that human beings are actually flourishing in the workplace because of our technology,

[00:23:06] not in spite of it.

[00:23:07] And so when we're looking at that, one of the sort of stats that we hang our hat on

[00:23:13] is that people are spending 30% of their day in knowledge workers,

[00:23:18] I mentioned this earlier, looking for information and for people that can help them.

[00:23:22] And so that's fundamentally what our technology supports them with,

[00:23:25] is it's one thing to go to generative AI and to ask a question

[00:23:28] and maybe get the reply that you need, maybe not.

[00:23:32] Maybe it's out of date.

[00:23:33] Maybe it's a hallucination.

[00:23:35] Maybe you need to validate it.

[00:23:36] There's all kinds of challenges still with generative AI that we're working on

[00:23:40] and significantly improving every day.

[00:23:43] But we need humans in the loop.

[00:23:45] And not only does that take away the fear people have of,

[00:23:49] well, what's my value if all the answers can come from AI?

[00:23:53] That will never be true.

[00:23:54] We always will need human beings in the loop.

[00:23:57] So I'll give you an example for, you know, you can go to generative AI,

[00:24:01] even if your generative AI is customized to your organizational knowledge,

[00:24:06] the stuff that's written down in an organization only represents 20% of an organization's knowledge.

[00:24:12] That's the average.

[00:24:13] So everything that it can crawl out and seek data from and return to you,

[00:24:19] not only might it be out of date or a hallucination or inaccurate,

[00:24:25] so the error factor is high.

[00:24:28] But how do we validate that?

[00:24:30] How do we know whether this is correct or not?

[00:24:33] How can we improve on that data?

[00:24:35] So AI is only as good as the data that we give it.

[00:24:38] And if we're only writing down 20% of the organization's knowledge,

[00:24:42] where's the other 80%?

[00:24:43] Well, it's in people's heads because we couldn't possibly write down everything we know

[00:24:47] and all of our experience and insight and wisdom, even if you asked us to.

[00:24:51] But when I ask you a question, Tim, that's very specific to your knowledge and expertise,

[00:24:58] and I ask you that question, you can reply to me

[00:25:01] and you can give me the knowledge that you have on that topic

[00:25:05] backed by your insight, your wisdom, your experience that is unique to you.

[00:25:09] And when we can create AI systems that allow people to do that across vast networks of people,

[00:25:17] then we can start to improve the generative AI data as well.

[00:25:21] And when those systems work together with real humans in the loop,

[00:25:25] that's what we're focused on building.

[00:25:27] And so that every question that AI can't answer

[00:25:31] or that we need a human to validate or provide contextual knowledge on,

[00:25:35] that those systems actually do that really effectively

[00:25:38] and feed that good knowledge, trusted knowledge back into those systems to improve them over time.

[00:25:44] So that's the crux of what our company is focused on.

[00:25:48] And it's really about helping humans thrive.

[00:25:51] Yes, it's about improving productivity and not wasting time and efficiencies

[00:25:55] and all those great things that organizations care about.

[00:25:58] But the design goal is that we actually improve the lives of humans

[00:26:02] by making their day easier, getting them what they need when they need it,

[00:26:06] and connecting them to other people to do that.

[00:26:09] At the risk of simplifying it.

[00:26:12] So basically creating a customized AI supported internal Wikipedia.

[00:26:18] Love it.

[00:26:19] Love the simplification because it's exactly,

[00:26:23] that is the missing piece with generative AI, right?

[00:26:26] Is the trusted knowledge of people.

[00:26:28] And while you may not always be right,

[00:26:32] the reality is, is that when we have those public systems

[00:26:36] where knowledge is being shared in those ways,

[00:26:38] if somebody else says, well, yeah, Tim's right,

[00:26:41] but I have something else to add.

[00:26:43] And I respond to that and go, yeah, those are both right.

[00:26:46] And hey, here's what I learned.

[00:26:48] And we can start to share more of that, what we call tacit knowledge,

[00:26:51] the stuff that's so experiential.

[00:26:53] That's what's really going to improve these knowledge bases and AI systems

[00:26:57] is the wisdom of real people that AI is just not capable of.

[00:27:02] And again, particularly customized to your business and field

[00:27:05] and customer base and whatever.

[00:27:09] Exactly.

[00:27:09] Your curated systems for your organization,

[00:27:13] specific to you and what you do and who you serve

[00:27:16] and the people in your organization.

[00:27:20] And this really speaks to something that I'm passionate about.

[00:27:24] And one of the things that I've spent my career building

[00:27:28] is employee well-being.

[00:27:30] And not just employee well-being, human well-being, human thriving.

[00:27:35] So one of the challenges that I'm at consulting,

[00:27:39] coaching I do with organizations is engagement.

[00:27:43] So few employees are engaged.

[00:27:45] And there's a growing number that are actively disengaged

[00:27:49] that are actually literally sabotaging the organization.

[00:27:54] Yeah.

[00:27:54] So how can companies,

[00:27:58] or what have you seen that companies can do

[00:28:00] to improve engagement in that way?

[00:28:03] Yeah.

[00:28:04] I really like this question

[00:28:05] because I have been following the engagement thread

[00:28:08] for a really long time.

[00:28:09] And I think, first of all,

[00:28:11] we're not measuring the right thing.

[00:28:13] You know, engagement,

[00:28:13] you can absolutely be engaged

[00:28:16] and not be well as a human being

[00:28:19] and not be thriving.

[00:28:20] And so I think,

[00:28:22] A, we're measuring the wrong things.

[00:28:24] And I think we should be measuring things

[00:28:26] like employee well-being

[00:28:27] and all the facets of,

[00:28:29] you know, I love the human flourishing models

[00:28:31] that are out there

[00:28:32] that actually look at all these facets of well-being.

[00:28:35] And so I think we can be measuring

[00:28:37] with far better metrics,

[00:28:40] first of all.

[00:28:41] But most importantly is like,

[00:28:43] these are huge cultural issues

[00:28:45] that often start, you know,

[00:28:47] at the leadership level

[00:28:48] so that if your leaders of your organization

[00:28:51] are kind of wringing their hands going,

[00:28:54] why is everyone disengaged?

[00:28:56] The amount of people that are in a job

[00:28:59] that they don't feel has value to the organization,

[00:29:02] they don't understand how it achieves

[00:29:04] the greater goals and vision of the organization.

[00:29:07] They don't feel valued in that job.

[00:29:10] There was a study by BetterUp in 2023

[00:29:12] and the number,

[00:29:14] I can't remember the stats on it now,

[00:29:15] but the number of people

[00:29:16] who felt like they had one person

[00:29:18] that they could trust

[00:29:19] and were connected to

[00:29:20] in their organization

[00:29:21] was so abysmally low.

[00:29:23] And people don't have,

[00:29:26] you know, social capital

[00:29:27] in their organizations.

[00:29:28] They don't have friends.

[00:29:29] They don't have people that they trust.

[00:29:31] I mean, would you be disengaged?

[00:29:33] Would you go home to your family at night

[00:29:35] if your kids and your wife

[00:29:37] and everyone that you're surrounded by,

[00:29:39] you know, didn't value you,

[00:29:42] didn't love you,

[00:29:44] you didn't feel connected,

[00:29:46] you know, all of those things were true.

[00:29:47] I'm pretty sure you probably wouldn't go there

[00:29:49] every night after you finished your workday.

[00:29:51] And so why do we expect human beings

[00:29:54] to work in those kinds of environments?

[00:29:55] And so I think there's a lot of issues

[00:29:58] at the cultural level

[00:29:59] that we sort of look to the engagement metrics

[00:30:03] and go, okay, well, people are disengaged.

[00:30:05] It's more important to recognize

[00:30:07] why people are disengaged

[00:30:08] and how that relates to their wellbeing.

[00:30:12] And at the end of the day,

[00:30:14] when you look at the data,

[00:30:15] it's fundamentally clear

[00:30:17] that these are leadership issues

[00:30:19] of how we run organizations,

[00:30:21] command and control.

[00:30:22] People don't have autonomy.

[00:30:23] They don't feel like they're part of a team,

[00:30:26] you know, all of these things.

[00:30:27] I mean, it's huge.

[00:30:28] They don't have psychological safety.

[00:30:30] They don't even feel like

[00:30:30] they could say this to anyone in the organization.

[00:30:33] So they're showing up

[00:30:34] and going through the motions

[00:30:35] to get a paycheck

[00:30:36] because there's nothing better

[00:30:38] that's come along.

[00:30:39] But that's how quiet quitting

[00:30:41] and the great resignation

[00:30:42] and all these things occurred

[00:30:43] is because all of a sudden

[00:30:44] people woke up to the fact

[00:30:46] that maybe this isn't a healthy way to live.

[00:30:50] Yeah, you nailed it.

[00:30:51] And a lot of the things you're saying

[00:30:53] are just like,

[00:30:54] check, check, check on the Gallup Q12.

[00:30:58] Like this been around for decades.

[00:31:00] Ever.

[00:31:01] Yeah.

[00:31:01] Yeah.

[00:31:01] It's so grounded in science.

[00:31:04] It's practical.

[00:31:06] And yet I've worked with companies

[00:31:09] that do the Gallup Q12 every year

[00:31:11] as part of their leadership training.

[00:31:15] And people understand,

[00:31:17] like leaders understand it conceptually.

[00:31:20] Yeah.

[00:31:21] And some of them even try to implement it.

[00:31:28] Particularly in the C-suite of

[00:31:31] are we implementing these things

[00:31:34] to improve engagement?

[00:31:36] Or are we implementing these things

[00:31:38] to help people thrive

[00:31:40] and be great humans?

[00:31:42] Yeah.

[00:31:43] Because there's a difference.

[00:31:45] There's a big difference.

[00:31:46] We want engagement

[00:31:48] because we know it's going to improve the business.

[00:31:50] So we're going to do this, this, and this.

[00:31:52] Check, check, check.

[00:31:53] Check.

[00:31:53] Yeah.

[00:31:54] Or we are running this company

[00:31:58] and building a team

[00:32:00] of awesome thriving humans.

[00:32:02] Yeah.

[00:32:04] You can do the same things.

[00:32:06] It's like Simon Sinek.

[00:32:07] Start with why.

[00:32:08] Yeah.

[00:32:09] Like the same actions happen,

[00:32:12] but the mindset with which you approach it

[00:32:15] makes it a completely different outcome.

[00:32:18] Absolutely.

[00:32:18] You said about employees

[00:32:19] not having someone at work

[00:32:21] or in a previous podcast,

[00:32:24] we talked a lot about trust.

[00:32:26] And most employees out there

[00:32:28] have zero trust

[00:32:29] that their company has their back.

[00:32:31] Yep.

[00:32:32] When shit hits the fan,

[00:32:35] they're going to get like a pink slip

[00:32:37] and they're going to get laid off.

[00:32:38] And they're not wrong.

[00:32:41] Exactly.

[00:32:42] And they've watched it happen

[00:32:44] to their colleagues.

[00:32:44] So it's so fundamentally broken

[00:32:48] the way that we approach leadership

[00:32:51] in especially, you know,

[00:32:53] these organizations that are dinosaurs

[00:32:55] that have been around for, you know,

[00:32:57] 20, 30, 40, 50 years

[00:32:59] when the way that we designed the economy,

[00:33:03] the way that businesses have been built,

[00:33:05] you know,

[00:33:05] it wasn't centered around care for human beings.

[00:33:09] It was centered around

[00:33:10] how do we squeeze every drop of productivity

[00:33:12] out of these people

[00:33:14] and discard them when we're done.

[00:33:16] And that was the way the model was designed.

[00:33:18] And so no wonder

[00:33:20] we're running into this now,

[00:33:22] but guess what?

[00:33:23] The level of consciousness

[00:33:24] has raised amongst human beings

[00:33:27] and our expectations

[00:33:28] of what's right and healthy

[00:33:30] and just have changed.

[00:33:33] And so I think the organizations

[00:33:35] that are going to still be here

[00:33:37] in another decade

[00:33:38] are the ones that recognize

[00:33:40] that leading with like real genuine care.

[00:33:43] If you're the CEO of a company

[00:33:45] and it is not obvious

[00:33:46] to your team members,

[00:33:48] to your community,

[00:33:49] to your, you know,

[00:33:50] the stakeholders you serve

[00:33:52] that you care deeply

[00:33:54] as a human being

[00:33:55] about them

[00:33:56] and about your impact in the world,

[00:33:58] I don't think you're going to be here.

[00:34:00] And so if you're the imposter

[00:34:02] who's just like playing that role,

[00:34:04] I think you should pack up

[00:34:05] and go home

[00:34:06] because I don't think it's going to last.

[00:34:08] I really do think

[00:34:09] this massive tidal wave is coming

[00:34:11] and the next generations

[00:34:13] are the ones that give me hope for that.

[00:34:15] You know, like you,

[00:34:16] you have kids that are teenagers,

[00:34:17] mine are in their 20s

[00:34:17] and, you know,

[00:34:19] they demand so much more

[00:34:21] and they don't want

[00:34:22] what their parents wanted.

[00:34:24] They see value in their well-being.

[00:34:27] They demand well-being.

[00:34:29] They, you know,

[00:34:30] I spoke to a group of students

[00:34:32] a couple of weeks ago

[00:34:33] and I was like,

[00:34:34] well-being is actually your right.

[00:34:37] Like this.

[00:34:38] And they know that,

[00:34:40] you know,

[00:34:40] they feel that.

[00:34:42] And I think they're starting

[00:34:43] to put language to that.

[00:34:44] You know,

[00:34:44] they're looking to work for companies

[00:34:46] that make a social impact

[00:34:47] and actually prove that

[00:34:48] and don't just say that

[00:34:49] in some mission statement somewhere.

[00:34:51] They're actually reading,

[00:34:53] you know,

[00:34:54] quarterly reports

[00:34:55] and looking at what people

[00:34:56] are doing in the world

[00:34:56] and looking for inconsistencies

[00:34:58] with what companies say

[00:34:59] and what companies do.

[00:35:01] You know,

[00:35:01] there's so much shift happening

[00:35:03] that I really think that,

[00:35:05] you know,

[00:35:06] we're at a really pivotal point

[00:35:07] where some of these companies

[00:35:08] that are,

[00:35:09] you know,

[00:35:10] led in archaic ways

[00:35:14] that do not value human thriving

[00:35:16] are just not going to be here

[00:35:17] because nobody wants to work

[00:35:18] for those companies anymore.

[00:35:20] Well,

[00:35:21] and you said a couple of things

[00:35:23] that really stuck out

[00:35:23] is the,

[00:35:24] the,

[00:35:25] the lot of shift happening.

[00:35:26] Yes,

[00:35:27] there's a lot of shift

[00:35:27] and there's also

[00:35:28] a lot of shit happening.

[00:35:30] both shit and shift.

[00:35:32] Yes.

[00:35:32] The,

[00:35:33] the thing I think,

[00:35:34] I feel we're in this gray area

[00:35:36] right now

[00:35:36] or this transition phase

[00:35:38] where

[00:35:39] companies get it.

[00:35:40] They understand

[00:35:41] that it's important,

[00:35:43] but more,

[00:35:44] I'd say 90 plus percent

[00:35:46] of what I see out there

[00:35:48] is window dressing.

[00:35:49] It's marketing.

[00:35:52] It's stuff put in the ESG reports

[00:35:55] and the,

[00:35:56] you know,

[00:35:57] annual reports

[00:35:57] that are

[00:35:59] there to make it look good.

[00:36:00] But the day-to-day reality

[00:36:02] for people sitting in the,

[00:36:04] in the bums and seats,

[00:36:05] we'll call it,

[00:36:06] is miserable.

[00:36:07] That's why

[00:36:08] people are starting to

[00:36:10] revolt.

[00:36:11] Yep.

[00:36:12] And

[00:36:13] I still see this

[00:36:16] almost denial

[00:36:17] from a lot of C-suite executives

[00:36:19] that's like,

[00:36:19] wow,

[00:36:19] we're doing this.

[00:36:20] We're doing that.

[00:36:21] We're doing,

[00:36:21] and yet

[00:36:22] on the flip side

[00:36:24] of the coin,

[00:36:25] they will say things

[00:36:27] that just

[00:36:27] show you

[00:36:29] that

[00:36:30] they don't get it.

[00:36:31] I,

[00:36:32] I had a

[00:36:33] conversation with,

[00:36:36] it's the national

[00:36:37] head of

[00:36:39] like a

[00:36:41] consulting,

[00:36:42] management consulting firm,

[00:36:44] fairly large,

[00:36:46] well-known management consulting firm,

[00:36:47] and they're like

[00:36:50] the best place to work.

[00:36:52] And he flat out said to me

[00:36:54] on a,

[00:36:55] just a

[00:36:56] coffee call

[00:36:57] we were having,

[00:36:58] he's like,

[00:36:59] yeah,

[00:36:59] people need to know

[00:37:00] what they're,

[00:37:00] what they're getting into

[00:37:02] when they get into this industry.

[00:37:03] It's like

[00:37:04] 15% of the people

[00:37:06] who get in

[00:37:06] make it because

[00:37:07] they can't put up

[00:37:08] with the workload

[00:37:08] and they can't hack it

[00:37:09] and they're here to,

[00:37:11] they know it's a,

[00:37:12] it's a churn mill.

[00:37:14] And this is the company

[00:37:15] that has

[00:37:17] great benefits plans

[00:37:19] and they've got all this

[00:37:19] and they've checked

[00:37:20] all the boxes.

[00:37:22] But the,

[00:37:23] the mindset is

[00:37:24] you're going to come in

[00:37:25] as a

[00:37:26] MBA

[00:37:27] or,

[00:37:28] you know,

[00:37:29] fresh out of university

[00:37:29] and we're going to

[00:37:30] work your ass off

[00:37:32] for

[00:37:33] five to 10 years.

[00:37:34] And if you survive,

[00:37:37] maybe you'll make partner.

[00:37:39] And,

[00:37:40] and it's the law firm

[00:37:41] mentality.

[00:37:42] It's the,

[00:37:44] but this is

[00:37:45] 2024.

[00:37:47] And

[00:37:48] the reality is

[00:37:49] a lot of people

[00:37:51] are

[00:37:51] not putting up with that.

[00:37:53] As you,

[00:37:53] as you said,

[00:37:54] I've had conversations

[00:37:55] with

[00:37:57] partners at law firms

[00:37:58] that go,

[00:37:59] yeah,

[00:37:59] we're having a hard time

[00:38:00] getting new,

[00:38:01] new recruits

[00:38:02] from law school.

[00:38:04] And it's like,

[00:38:05] yeah,

[00:38:05] they're going into

[00:38:05] corporate law

[00:38:06] because they're not

[00:38:07] going into the

[00:38:07] private firm

[00:38:09] practice

[00:38:09] because

[00:38:11] they care

[00:38:12] about their

[00:38:12] well-being.

[00:38:13] They don't want to be

[00:38:14] having heart attacks

[00:38:15] at 40.

[00:38:16] Nope.

[00:38:17] Nope.

[00:38:17] And they know,

[00:38:18] and they know,

[00:38:19] like,

[00:38:19] this is what

[00:38:20] our generation

[00:38:21] didn't know,

[00:38:22] you know,

[00:38:22] pre,

[00:38:23] when we were young

[00:38:24] and we didn't have

[00:38:24] access to the internet,

[00:38:26] like all of the data

[00:38:27] that is out there now,

[00:38:29] these young people

[00:38:30] know,

[00:38:31] and,

[00:38:32] and they're the ones

[00:38:33] getting royally

[00:38:35] screwed,

[00:38:35] you know,

[00:38:36] at least our generation,

[00:38:37] we're actually

[00:38:38] benefiting to some degree

[00:38:40] and many of us,

[00:38:41] many of us in our

[00:38:42] 40s and 50s and 60s

[00:38:43] actually benefited

[00:38:45] from the pandemic

[00:38:46] financially.

[00:38:47] And,

[00:38:48] you know,

[00:38:48] there's all these ways

[00:38:49] in which

[00:38:49] this inequity

[00:38:51] is continuing

[00:38:52] to perpetuate

[00:38:53] and it's the youngest

[00:38:54] people that get

[00:38:55] the most screwed

[00:38:57] by the way

[00:38:58] the world has

[00:38:59] unfolded

[00:39:00] and the pandemic

[00:39:01] and,

[00:39:01] you know,

[00:39:01] all of this.

[00:39:02] And they know

[00:39:03] there's more coming

[00:39:04] and,

[00:39:04] you know,

[00:39:05] climate change

[00:39:06] and like,

[00:39:06] you know,

[00:39:07] no wonder,

[00:39:07] like literally

[00:39:08] after the pandemic,

[00:39:10] everyone is traumatized

[00:39:11] and,

[00:39:13] and they're,

[00:39:14] these young people

[00:39:15] in particular,

[00:39:16] like they're not

[00:39:17] going to be able

[00:39:17] to buy houses.

[00:39:18] They're not going to,

[00:39:18] you know,

[00:39:19] I look at my kids

[00:39:20] and they have a reality

[00:39:22] that is uniquely

[00:39:23] and entirely different

[00:39:25] from any generation

[00:39:26] before them

[00:39:27] and an awareness

[00:39:28] of that reality

[00:39:29] because of social media

[00:39:32] and the internet

[00:39:33] and all of the fabulous

[00:39:34] technology that we have.

[00:39:36] They have this awareness

[00:39:38] that they can't unsee,

[00:39:41] right?

[00:39:41] And they can't

[00:39:42] unexperience.

[00:39:43] And so even,

[00:39:44] there's an amazing book,

[00:39:46] a woman named Carolyn Suara

[00:39:47] wrote a book

[00:39:48] about trauma-informed leadership

[00:39:49] and I don't think

[00:39:51] you have any business

[00:39:52] being a leader

[00:39:53] of any organization

[00:39:55] in 2024

[00:39:56] if you're not trauma-informed

[00:39:58] because guess what?

[00:39:59] Most of your people

[00:40:00] have been through

[00:40:01] extreme trauma

[00:40:02] over the last five years

[00:40:04] and if you don't even know

[00:40:07] and understand

[00:40:07] what that looks like

[00:40:09] and how that affects people

[00:40:10] and their performance

[00:40:11] and their productivity

[00:40:12] and you're not caring

[00:40:14] on that level,

[00:40:15] like you just have

[00:40:16] no business

[00:40:17] being in that role.

[00:40:18] So we've got a ton

[00:40:18] of people

[00:40:19] in those roles

[00:40:20] who don't understand

[00:40:22] what is actually

[00:40:23] happening in the world.

[00:40:24] They're so out of touch

[00:40:25] with that

[00:40:26] because they financially

[00:40:27] benefited over

[00:40:28] the last five years.

[00:40:29] They're doing okay.

[00:40:30] They went off

[00:40:30] and sat on an island

[00:40:31] for a year

[00:40:32] while everyone else

[00:40:33] was going through hell

[00:40:35] and so there's a lot

[00:40:37] and that's not to say

[00:40:38] that everyone

[00:40:38] in those positions

[00:40:39] by any means

[00:40:40] didn't have a hard time

[00:40:41] during the pandemic.

[00:40:42] I'm not making light

[00:40:43] of that.

[00:40:44] However,

[00:40:44] I do think

[00:40:45] that it has dramatically

[00:40:47] affected groups

[00:40:48] of people

[00:40:48] significantly more

[00:40:50] than others

[00:40:50] and certainly

[00:40:52] young people

[00:40:53] and people of color.

[00:40:56] You know,

[00:40:56] the experience

[00:40:58] is not the same

[00:40:59] and if we don't

[00:40:59] acknowledge that

[00:41:00] as leaders,

[00:41:01] I think we're

[00:41:02] in for a rude awakening

[00:41:03] that's already happening.

[00:41:05] You can see it unfolding.

[00:41:07] Yeah,

[00:41:07] and I love

[00:41:08] how you said

[00:41:09] trauma-informed leadership

[00:41:10] that a key part

[00:41:12] of that

[00:41:13] is understanding

[00:41:14] what trauma is

[00:41:16] and defining that

[00:41:18] because I think

[00:41:19] for a lot of

[00:41:20] middle-aged

[00:41:21] white men

[00:41:21] particularly

[00:41:22] who are leading

[00:41:23] these organizations,

[00:41:25] trauma means

[00:41:26] very different things

[00:41:27] and

[00:41:28] they might be thinking

[00:41:30] in the traditional

[00:41:31] sense of trauma

[00:41:32] like major incidents

[00:41:33] or accidents

[00:41:34] or

[00:41:34] not psychological trauma

[00:41:37] from systemic

[00:41:38] racism

[00:41:39] and

[00:41:39] inequities

[00:41:41] in our culture

[00:41:42] and

[00:41:43] because they haven't

[00:41:44] experienced that

[00:41:45] to a large extent.

[00:41:47] Yeah.

[00:41:47] And so to be able

[00:41:48] to open our

[00:41:50] mind about

[00:41:52] the definitions

[00:41:53] of trauma

[00:41:54] and how it impacts

[00:41:55] people is critical.

[00:41:57] Absolutely.

[00:41:58] Absolutely.

[00:41:59] And like I'm shocked

[00:42:00] at how

[00:42:00] little

[00:42:01] that conversation

[00:42:03] is actually happening

[00:42:04] and it's like

[00:42:04] could you possibly

[00:42:05] be in a position

[00:42:06] where you're leading

[00:42:07] sometimes hundreds

[00:42:09] of thousands

[00:42:09] of people

[00:42:10] and

[00:42:11] if you've looked

[00:42:12] at the data

[00:42:13] and went

[00:42:14] hmm,

[00:42:15] I wonder if some

[00:42:15] of these people

[00:42:16] who've experienced

[00:42:16] these things

[00:42:17] are on my team

[00:42:18] probably

[00:42:19] in fact

[00:42:20] a hundred percent

[00:42:21] and

[00:42:22] the experience

[00:42:24] collectively

[00:42:25] that the whole world

[00:42:26] has gone through

[00:42:26] in the last five years

[00:42:28] is traumatic

[00:42:29] in and of itself

[00:42:30] let alone

[00:42:31] the individual ways

[00:42:32] that that has unfolded

[00:42:33] for

[00:42:33] different groups

[00:42:35] of people

[00:42:35] and different individuals

[00:42:36] I just think

[00:42:37] it's

[00:42:37] absolute madness

[00:42:39] to sit

[00:42:40] at the level

[00:42:40] of leadership

[00:42:42] in an organization

[00:42:43] and not be thinking

[00:42:44] that you might

[00:42:45] need to be

[00:42:46] trauma-informed

[00:42:46] that you might

[00:42:47] need to improve

[00:42:48] your emotional

[00:42:49] intelligence

[00:42:49] that you might

[00:42:50] even need to

[00:42:51] improve your

[00:42:51] executive functioning

[00:42:52] skills

[00:42:53] that you might

[00:42:54] you know

[00:42:54] like the list

[00:42:55] is long

[00:42:57] and these are

[00:42:58] skills

[00:42:58] none of us

[00:42:59] were taught

[00:43:00] growing up

[00:43:01] and it's like

[00:43:01] I'm looking at

[00:43:01] my kids

[00:43:02] in you know

[00:43:03] learning about

[00:43:03] non-violent

[00:43:04] communication

[00:43:05] in a school

[00:43:06] environment

[00:43:06] and you know

[00:43:07] learning all

[00:43:08] these tools

[00:43:08] that I never

[00:43:09] learned by any

[00:43:10] means

[00:43:10] and had to

[00:43:11] teach them

[00:43:11] to myself

[00:43:12] along the way

[00:43:13] but certainly

[00:43:14] you know

[00:43:15] the 60 plus

[00:43:16] white guy

[00:43:16] who's leading

[00:43:17] most organizations

[00:43:19] was certainly

[00:43:19] never taught

[00:43:20] those skills

[00:43:21] and in many

[00:43:22] cases has never

[00:43:22] gone seeking

[00:43:23] them

[00:43:23] and living in

[00:43:25] the world

[00:43:25] we're living

[00:43:25] in today

[00:43:26] without those

[00:43:26] skills

[00:43:27] you just don't

[00:43:27] have any

[00:43:28] business

[00:43:28] being a leader

[00:43:28] in my opinion

[00:43:31] yeah

[00:43:31] and

[00:43:33] that well

[00:43:33] it speaks

[00:43:34] to leadership

[00:43:35] training as

[00:43:35] well

[00:43:36] I just

[00:43:36] had a

[00:43:37] call with

[00:43:38] someone the

[00:43:38] other day

[00:43:38] we were talking

[00:43:39] he was

[00:43:39] mentioning a

[00:43:40] stat that

[00:43:41] said

[00:43:42] the average

[00:43:43] leader became

[00:43:43] a leader at

[00:43:44] 27 years old

[00:43:46] I think

[00:43:46] and they

[00:43:47] don't get

[00:43:48] leadership

[00:43:48] training

[00:43:49] until 43

[00:43:53] isn't that

[00:43:54] interesting

[00:43:55] and

[00:43:56] what does

[00:43:57] that entail

[00:43:58] that leadership

[00:43:59] training

[00:43:59] and then

[00:44:00] yeah

[00:44:01] what does

[00:44:01] the leadership

[00:44:01] training

[00:44:02] entail

[00:44:02] yeah

[00:44:03] and most

[00:44:04] leadership

[00:44:05] training

[00:44:05] is

[00:44:06] very

[00:44:07] technical

[00:44:08] tactical

[00:44:09] in the

[00:44:10] role

[00:44:10] and not

[00:44:11] about

[00:44:11] trauma

[00:44:12] informed

[00:44:12] leadership

[00:44:13] and

[00:44:13] emotional

[00:44:14] intelligence

[00:44:14] and

[00:44:15] you know

[00:44:15] there's much

[00:44:16] much more

[00:44:16] of that

[00:44:17] but

[00:44:17] people are

[00:44:19] accessing that

[00:44:19] way too

[00:44:20] late

[00:44:21] in their

[00:44:22] career

[00:44:23] and ideally

[00:44:23] you have

[00:44:24] that before

[00:44:25] you become

[00:44:25] a leader

[00:44:26] right

[00:44:27] and way too

[00:44:27] late in our

[00:44:28] lives

[00:44:28] like why

[00:44:28] are we

[00:44:29] teaching kids

[00:44:29] that in

[00:44:30] school

[00:44:30] right

[00:44:30] like these

[00:44:31] are the

[00:44:31] things that

[00:44:31] are actually

[00:44:32] going to make

[00:44:32] their lives

[00:44:33] so much

[00:44:34] better

[00:44:34] understanding

[00:44:35] themselves

[00:44:36] understanding

[00:44:36] their own

[00:44:37] differences

[00:44:39] psychologically

[00:44:40] and how

[00:44:41] their brains

[00:44:41] work

[00:44:42] and like

[00:44:42] I'm like

[00:44:43] why would

[00:44:43] school be

[00:44:44] anything else

[00:44:44] like why

[00:44:45] wouldn't we

[00:44:45] be learning

[00:44:46] about ourselves

[00:44:46] as individuals

[00:44:47] and creating

[00:44:49] that level

[00:44:49] of self

[00:44:50] awareness

[00:44:50] and self

[00:44:51] regulation

[00:44:51] all those

[00:44:52] great tools

[00:44:52] that we

[00:44:53] can learn

[00:44:54] and then

[00:44:55] how do

[00:44:55] you interact

[00:44:56] with other

[00:44:57] human beings

[00:44:57] and develop

[00:44:58] psychological

[00:44:59] flexibility

[00:44:59] and you know

[00:45:00] all these

[00:45:00] like these

[00:45:01] are the

[00:45:01] things that

[00:45:02] should be

[00:45:02] taught in

[00:45:02] school

[00:45:02] but don't

[00:45:03] even get

[00:45:03] me started

[00:45:04] about that

[00:45:04] one

[00:45:05] yes

[00:45:07] well and

[00:45:08] that sort

[00:45:08] of brings

[00:45:09] us full

[00:45:09] circle

[00:45:09] is how

[00:45:10] do we

[00:45:10] use

[00:45:11] technology

[00:45:11] for good

[00:45:12] to scale

[00:45:13] that

[00:45:15] that

[00:45:15] transformation

[00:45:16] that learning

[00:45:18] through

[00:45:19] children all

[00:45:20] the way up

[00:45:20] into the

[00:45:20] workforce

[00:45:22] yeah

[00:45:22] that's

[00:45:23] that is

[00:45:24] the question

[00:45:24] and it is

[00:45:25] certainly

[00:45:25] the question

[00:45:26] we're working

[00:45:27] on at

[00:45:28] Inkly

[00:45:28] is building

[00:45:29] the technology

[00:45:30] that is not

[00:45:31] only designed

[00:45:31] for human

[00:45:32] flourishing

[00:45:32] but designing

[00:45:34] the tools

[00:45:34] that can

[00:45:35] actually help

[00:45:36] people access

[00:45:36] the trusted

[00:45:37] knowledge they

[00:45:38] need when

[00:45:38] they need it

[00:45:39] because you

[00:45:39] should be able

[00:45:40] to say

[00:45:40] wow

[00:45:40] Rebecca just

[00:45:41] said something

[00:45:42] about psychological

[00:45:42] flexibility

[00:45:43] I've never

[00:45:44] even heard

[00:45:44] that term

[00:45:44] I don't know

[00:45:45] what that is

[00:45:45] what does

[00:45:46] that mean

[00:45:46] how do I

[00:45:47] develop that

[00:45:47] where might I

[00:45:48] find tools

[00:45:49] that are

[00:45:49] actually

[00:45:49] effective

[00:45:50] you know

[00:45:51] all of those

[00:45:51] questions that

[00:45:52] you might

[00:45:52] have

[00:45:53] we need

[00:45:54] to be

[00:45:56] making it

[00:45:56] easy for

[00:45:57] people to

[00:45:57] access the

[00:45:58] knowledge they

[00:45:59] need when

[00:45:59] they need

[00:45:59] it and

[00:46:00] that is

[00:46:00] exactly what

[00:46:01] we're working

[00:46:02] on so

[00:46:02] let's

[00:46:03] let's

[00:46:04] let's make

[00:46:04] life better

[00:46:05] for human

[00:46:06] beings by

[00:46:06] giving them

[00:46:07] access to

[00:46:07] the knowledge

[00:46:08] they need

[00:46:08] when they

[00:46:08] need it

[00:46:09] but even

[00:46:10] more importantly

[00:46:10] connecting them

[00:46:11] to real

[00:46:12] human beings

[00:46:13] to not only

[00:46:14] share that

[00:46:15] knowledge

[00:46:15] but learn

[00:46:16] from each

[00:46:17] other's

[00:46:17] knowledge

[00:46:19] I love

[00:46:20] it

[00:46:20] and so

[00:46:21] what

[00:46:23] you know

[00:46:23] covered lots

[00:46:24] of different

[00:46:25] topics

[00:46:26] to sort of

[00:46:27] wrap it up

[00:46:28] into a little

[00:46:28] bit of a bow

[00:46:29] what

[00:46:30] what would be

[00:46:31] your biggest

[00:46:32] takeaway for

[00:46:33] let's let's

[00:46:34] focus on

[00:46:34] leaders right

[00:46:35] now who are

[00:46:35] out there

[00:46:36] leading a team

[00:46:37] what's the

[00:46:38] one piece of

[00:46:39] advice or

[00:46:40] tool or

[00:46:41] resource that

[00:46:41] you have

[00:46:42] for them that

[00:46:42] you think

[00:46:43] would be

[00:46:43] most valuable

[00:46:44] awesome

[00:46:45] good question

[00:46:46] well I'm a

[00:46:47] little bit

[00:46:48] biased in

[00:46:48] that I

[00:46:49] just wrote

[00:46:49] a paper

[00:46:50] called

[00:46:50] questions are

[00:46:51] the answer

[00:46:51] and so you

[00:46:52] can find

[00:46:53] that on

[00:46:53] our website

[00:46:54] at

[00:46:54] inkley.com

[00:46:55] but also

[00:46:56] our partner

[00:46:57] in publishing

[00:46:59] that paper

[00:47:00] is the

[00:47:01] digital

[00:47:01] wellness

[00:47:01] institute

[00:47:02] and they

[00:47:02] have

[00:47:03] tremendous

[00:47:03] tools

[00:47:04] for

[00:47:04] organizations

[00:47:05] they

[00:47:05] actually

[00:47:06] just

[00:47:06] partnered

[00:47:06] with

[00:47:06] fast

[00:47:07] company

[00:47:08] on

[00:47:09] digitally

[00:47:09] balanced

[00:47:10] workplace

[00:47:10] certification

[00:47:11] so that

[00:47:12] you can

[00:47:12] actually

[00:47:12] learn

[00:47:13] about

[00:47:13] where

[00:47:14] are

[00:47:14] we

[00:47:14] when it

[00:47:15] comes

[00:47:15] to

[00:47:15] digital

[00:47:15] wellness

[00:47:16] as an

[00:47:16] organization

[00:47:16] what do

[00:47:17] we need

[00:47:17] to work

[00:47:17] on

[00:47:18] what are

[00:47:18] the tools

[00:47:18] we could

[00:47:19] use

[00:47:19] to do

[00:47:19] that

[00:47:19] they have

[00:47:20] endless

[00:47:21] amounts

[00:47:22] of knowledge

[00:47:23] free

[00:47:23] as well

[00:47:24] as you

[00:47:24] know

[00:47:24] paid

[00:47:25] and

[00:47:25] consulting

[00:47:25] and all

[00:47:26] of the

[00:47:26] above

[00:47:27] but they

[00:47:28] provide

[00:47:28] a tremendous

[00:47:29] amount

[00:47:29] of free

[00:47:29] information

[00:47:30] and knowledge

[00:47:30] for anyone

[00:47:31] who wants

[00:47:32] it

[00:47:32] so

[00:47:32] digital

[00:47:33] wellness

[00:47:33] institute

[00:47:34] dot com

[00:47:35] as well

[00:47:35] is an

[00:47:36] excellent place

[00:47:36] to find

[00:47:37] tools and

[00:47:37] resources

[00:47:38] and I

[00:47:38] also

[00:47:38] mentioned

[00:47:39] the

[00:47:40] center

[00:47:40] for

[00:47:40] humane

[00:47:40] technology

[00:47:41] so just

[00:47:41] learning

[00:47:42] more

[00:47:42] about

[00:47:42] technology

[00:47:43] and how

[00:47:43] it's

[00:47:44] affecting

[00:47:44] us

[00:47:44] for

[00:47:45] technology

[00:47:46] designers

[00:47:46] as well

[00:47:47] as

[00:47:47] parents

[00:47:48] teachers

[00:47:48] you know

[00:47:49] individuals

[00:47:49] in organizations

[00:47:50] and leaders

[00:47:51] they have a ton

[00:47:52] of resources

[00:47:52] and knowledge

[00:47:53] there as well

[00:47:53] at the center

[00:47:54] for humane

[00:47:55] technology

[00:47:56] well I'll

[00:47:57] make sure

[00:47:58] I put

[00:47:58] those links

[00:47:59] or some

[00:47:59] of those

[00:48:00] links

[00:48:00] up in

[00:48:00] the show

[00:48:01] notes

[00:48:01] awesome

[00:48:02] well I

[00:48:03] want to

[00:48:04] finish with

[00:48:04] one question

[00:48:04] and

[00:48:06] it's

[00:48:07] something

[00:48:07] that

[00:48:07] I wouldn't

[00:48:08] have thought

[00:48:09] would be

[00:48:09] even

[00:48:10] a factor

[00:48:11] in today's

[00:48:12] world

[00:48:13] but

[00:48:13] recently

[00:48:14] I've

[00:48:14] heard a

[00:48:15] couple

[00:48:16] leaders

[00:48:17] say this

[00:48:18] and

[00:48:19] what

[00:48:20] really

[00:48:20] when we

[00:48:21] were talking

[00:48:22] about technology

[00:48:22] and all

[00:48:23] the changes

[00:48:24] that are

[00:48:24] happening

[00:48:25] and I

[00:48:25] heard a

[00:48:26] couple

[00:48:26] of them

[00:48:26] say

[00:48:26] yeah

[00:48:27] we're

[00:48:27] not a

[00:48:27] technology

[00:48:28] company

[00:48:28] though

[00:48:28] so

[00:48:29] and I'm

[00:48:30] like

[00:48:30] what

[00:48:31] every

[00:48:31] company

[00:48:32] is a

[00:48:32] technology

[00:48:32] company

[00:48:33] so what

[00:48:33] do you

[00:48:33] say to

[00:48:34] people

[00:48:34] when you

[00:48:34] hear

[00:48:35] that

[00:48:35] well

[00:48:36] I

[00:48:36] say

[00:48:37] predominantly

[00:48:37] what you

[00:48:38] just

[00:48:38] said

[00:48:38] which

[00:48:39] is

[00:48:39] like

[00:48:39] first

[00:48:40] of

[00:48:40] all

[00:48:40] you

[00:48:40] have

[00:48:40] to

[00:48:40] laugh

[00:48:41] because

[00:48:41] it's

[00:48:41] like

[00:48:41] every

[00:48:42] company

[00:48:43] is a

[00:48:43] technology

[00:48:44] company

[00:48:44] it's

[00:48:44] like

[00:48:45] there

[00:48:46] is

[00:48:46] and

[00:48:47] technology

[00:48:47] in

[00:48:47] its

[00:48:48] traditional

[00:48:50] term

[00:48:51] right

[00:48:51] I mean

[00:48:52] like

[00:48:52] hammer

[00:48:52] is

[00:48:55] so

[00:48:55] there

[00:48:56] is

[00:48:56] layers

[00:48:58] of

[00:48:58] what

[00:48:58] is

[00:48:59] technology

[00:48:59] so

[00:49:00] I

[00:49:00] don't

[00:49:00] go

[00:49:00] there

[00:49:01] because

[00:49:01] that

[00:49:01] just

[00:49:01] gets

[00:49:02] crazy

[00:49:02] if

[00:49:04] you're

[00:49:04] a

[00:49:05] company

[00:49:05] today

[00:49:06] in

[00:49:06] 2024

[00:49:07] doing

[00:49:07] business

[00:49:08] out

[00:49:08] in

[00:49:08] the

[00:49:09] world

[00:49:09] it

[00:49:09] doesn't

[00:49:10] matter

[00:49:10] who

[00:49:11] you

[00:49:11] are

[00:49:11] or

[00:49:11] how

[00:49:11] small

[00:49:12] you

[00:49:12] are

[00:49:12] or

[00:49:12] what

[00:49:13] kind

[00:49:13] of

[00:49:13] company

[00:49:14] you

[00:49:14] are

[00:49:14] technology

[00:49:15] is

[00:49:16] and will

[00:49:16] and will

[00:49:17] always

[00:49:17] play

[00:49:18] into

[00:49:18] your

[00:49:19] business

[00:49:19] being

[00:49:19] successful

[00:49:20] or

[00:49:20] not

[00:49:21] functional

[00:49:21] or

[00:49:22] not

[00:49:22] and so

[00:49:23] it's

[00:49:24] just

[00:49:24] not

[00:49:25] true

[00:49:25] that

[00:49:25] every

[00:49:26] company

[00:49:26] doesn't

[00:49:33] you

[00:49:33] are

[00:49:34] using

[00:49:35] technology

[00:49:35] you

[00:49:36] will

[00:49:37] be

[00:49:37] using

[00:49:37] technology

[00:49:38] you

[00:49:38] will

[00:49:38] continue

[00:49:38] to

[00:49:38] use

[00:49:39] more

[00:49:39] and

[00:49:39] more

[00:49:39] technology

[00:49:40] and

[00:49:41] being

[00:49:41] educated

[00:49:41] and

[00:49:42] responsible

[00:49:42] for

[00:49:42] both

[00:49:43] yourself

[00:49:43] and

[00:49:44] your

[00:49:44] people

[00:49:44] and

[00:49:44] the

[00:49:45] stakeholders

[00:49:45] you

[00:49:45] serve

[00:49:46] with

[00:49:46] respect

[00:49:46] to

[00:49:46] how

[00:49:47] technology

[00:49:48] is

[00:49:48] used

[00:49:48] in

[00:49:48] your

[00:49:48] organization

[00:49:49] is

[00:49:49] incredibly

[00:49:50] important

[00:49:51] I

[00:49:52] agree

[00:49:52] and

[00:49:53] it

[00:49:54] made me

[00:49:54] think

[00:50:02] and

[00:50:03] they

[00:50:03] featured

[00:50:04] a

[00:50:04] homeless

[00:50:04] guy

[00:50:05] in

[00:50:05] San

[00:50:06] Francisco

[00:50:06] that

[00:50:07] with

[00:50:08] the

[00:50:10] social

[00:50:11] distancing

[00:50:11] he

[00:50:12] was

[00:50:12] using

[00:50:13] tap

[00:50:14] non-contact

[00:50:16] payment

[00:50:16] so

[00:50:16] instead

[00:50:17] of

[00:50:18] people

[00:50:18] giving

[00:50:18] him

[00:50:18] money

[00:50:19] he

[00:50:20] could

[00:50:20] tap

[00:50:20] contactless

[00:50:22] payment

[00:50:22] to

[00:50:24] donate

[00:50:24] I'm

[00:50:24] like

[00:50:24] if

[00:50:25] a

[00:50:26] homeless

[00:50:26] guy

[00:50:26] has

[00:50:26] non-contactless

[00:50:33] absolutely

[00:50:33] everyone

[00:50:34] so

[00:50:34] yeah

[00:50:35] I think

[00:50:36] that's

[00:50:37] becoming

[00:50:37] less and

[00:50:38] less of

[00:50:38] a comment

[00:50:38] but

[00:50:39] when you

[00:50:39] do

[00:50:39] hear

[00:50:39] it

[00:50:40] it's

[00:50:40] hard

[00:50:40] not

[00:50:40] to

[00:50:40] laugh

[00:50:41] because

[00:50:41] it's

[00:50:41] just

[00:50:42] not

[00:50:42] true

[00:50:44] awesome

[00:50:45] well

[00:50:46] Rebecca

[00:50:46] it's

[00:50:46] been

[00:50:46] so

[00:50:47] awesome

[00:50:47] to

[00:50:47] chat

[00:50:47] I

[00:50:47] can't

[00:50:48] wait

[00:50:48] to

[00:50:48] the

[00:50:48] next

[00:50:48] time

[00:50:48] we

[00:50:48] connect

[00:50:50] previous

[00:50:51] conversations

[00:50:51] we've

[00:50:52] got

[00:51:02] find

[00:51:02] you

[00:51:03] and

[00:51:03] thank

[00:51:04] you

[00:51:04] again

[00:51:04] it's

[00:51:05] been

[00:51:05] wonderful

[00:51:05] thank

[00:51:06] you

[00:51:06] so

[00:51:06] much

[00:51:07] that

[00:51:08] wraps

[00:51:08] up

[00:51:08] another

[00:51:09] episode

[00:51:09] of the

[00:51:09] working

[00:51:10] well

[00:51:10] podcast

[00:51:11] if

[00:51:11] you

[00:51:12] enjoyed

[00:51:12] the

[00:51:12] show

[00:51:12] please

[00:51:13] rate

[00:51:13] review

[00:51:14] and

[00:51:14] subscribe

[00:51:14] wherever

[00:51:15] you

[00:51:15] get

[00:51:15] your

[00:51:15] podcasts

[00:51:17] now

[00:51:17] which

[00:51:18] guests

[00:51:18] or

[00:51:18] topics

[00:51:19] would

[00:51:19] you

[00:51:19] like

[00:51:19] to

[00:51:19] see

[00:51:19] featured

[00:51:20] on

[00:51:20] the

[00:51:20] show

[00:51:21] message

[00:51:21] me

[00:51:22] through

[00:51:22] linkedin

[00:51:22] or

[00:51:23] on

[00:51:23] the

[00:51:23] contact

[00:51:23] page

[00:51:24] of

[00:51:24] timborris.com

[00:51:25] with

[00:51:25] your

[00:51:25] ideas

[00:51:26] thanks

[00:51:26] for

[00:51:27] tuning

[00:51:27] in

[00:51:27] I'm

[00:51:28] Tim

[00:51:28] Boris

[00:51:28] with

[00:51:29] Fresh

[00:51:29] Wellness

[00:51:29] Group

[00:51:30] and

[00:51:30] I

[00:51:30] look

[00:51:30] forward

[00:51:31] to

[00:51:31] seeing

[00:51:31] you

[00:51:31] on

[00:51:32] the

[00:51:32] next

[00:51:32] episode